Economic Update: Living in a Socialist Economy

Summary

Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

Episode: Living in a Socialist Economy

Date: May 16, 2019
Host: Richard D. Wolff
Guest: Victor Grossman

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode examines the realities of living under capitalist and socialist systems, focusing on economic inequality in the United States before transitioning to an interview with Victor Grossman, an American who defected to East Germany and lived there for decades. The purpose is to provide firsthand insights, challenge mainstream narratives about socialism and capitalism, and discuss what lessons can be learned from different economic models.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Critique of Capitalism & Examples of Inequality

(00:26–14:31)
Richard D. Wolff opens the show critiquing capitalism’s persistent inequality and highlighting news stories that expose systemic issues.

• Warren Buffett's Defense of Capitalism

  • Buffett reaffirms himself as a “100% capitalist” and admits that “capitalism will always hurt some people.”
    • Notable quote (01:03):
      • “Capitalism will always hurt some people.”
      • — Warren Buffett, recounted by Richard Wolff
    • Wolff observes,
      • “Coming from a person who is never in the group ‘some people,’ this was an extraordinary remark.” (01:08)
  • Skepticism about claims that “socialism will never come” to the US, referencing historic leaders making similar claims before socialism arrived in their countries (01:51).

• College Admissions Scandal

  • Discussion of Rick Singer’s college admissions scheme, bribery, and the usage of wealth to buy privilege (02:06–05:15).
  • Tax fraud via college “donations” cited as further evidence of how the wealthy exploit the system.
    • Notable example:
      • “One Chinese couple in China paid Singer six and a half million dollars to get their daughter into Stanford.” (03:24)
  • Richard Wolff shares personal anecdotes from Harvard to underscore that “flashing a college degree” does not always equal merit (04:41).

• Lobbying and Legislative Manipulation

  • A case study from New Jersey in which a lawyer wrote pro-corporate tax legislation, robbing the public treasury (05:31–07:21).
    • Result:
      • $260 million tax break for corporations, merely $155,000 gained for the state.
    • Quote:
      • “That was what goes on every day in Washington and in all 50 state capitals. The money talks, and the more money, the louder it talks.” (07:01)

• Teacher Strikes in the Carolinas

  • Praises teachers for striking against poor state support, connecting budget shortfalls to tax policies favoring the wealthy (07:49–08:49).
    • “Politicians are cutting the budgets of school systems around the country because they don't have the courage to tax rich people and corporations, which is where the money is.” (08:30)

• Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDAs) as Tools of the Powerful

  • Explains how NDAs are used to buy silence on workplace abuse or misconduct, illustrated by US and international cases (09:10–13:40).
    • “NDAs are a way for wealthy people to buy their way out of being held accountable for what they do.” (10:39)
  • Legislation claimed as “reform” often only provides window dressing, not real change (12:02).

• Conclusion on Systemic Problems

  • Emphasizes that abuse of power is deeply rooted in economic inequality:
    • “The inequality of wealth and power built into our capitalist enterprise is an invitation that has been accepted by countless top executives… It's the system's inequality that lies at the root of this behavior.” (13:31–13:56)

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2. Firsthand Account: Life in East Germany (with Victor Grossman)

(14:31–28:32)

Introduction to Victor Grossman

• American-born, Harvard student, Communist Party member, former US Army soldier who defected to East Germany; author of memoirs on the American left and life in the GDR.

Why Defect to East Germany?

(16:04–17:30)

• Not voluntary: Grossman fled to avoid prison after his leftist past was discovered by the US Army during the McCarthy era.
  • “I deserted by crossing from the American zone of Austria to the Soviet zone, which meant swimming across the Danube River. … I managed that really in panic, but safely, as you see.” (16:46)

Strengths & Weaknesses of the GDR System

(18:03–21:57)

Strengths:

• Removal of Nazi collaborators from power (important for Grossman’s identity as a Jewish anti-fascist).
• Solidarity with global liberation and anti-colonial movements.
• Eradication of poverty—Grossman never saw a beggar or homeless person in 38 years.
• Universal access to medical care and education, including financial support for students and generous parental benefits.
  • “You never paid a penny anymore. And education was the same… Childcare was free. These were good things that I liked.” (19:29)
• Cheap housing (rent was only about a tenth of salary).

Weaknesses:

• Economic shortages and inability to match Western consumer goods standards due to constant external pressure and sanctions.
  • “Awful lot of goods were missing. … Bananas were short, for example, many other commodities.” (20:07)
• Repression:
  • Lack of a free press; people cautious with public expression due to risk of losing professional advancement, even though there was no widespread fear of imprisonment (21:13).

Reunification and Its Impact

(22:00–24:10)

Benefits:

• Families reunited; freedom to travel; access to modern consumer goods.

Drawbacks:

• Destruction of East German industry and agriculture led to mass unemployment.
• Youth programs dismantled; formerly free or inexpensive childcare and medical care became costly.
• Rise in job insecurity and erosion of social safety nets.
  • “Not only that, but youth clubs were disbanded. Childcare became expensive. … You weren't sure of a job. You didn't know what was going to happen tomorrow.” (23:06)

What Can the US Learn from the GDR?

(24:11–25:47)

• Do not emulate the repressive aspects, but recognize that constant external hostility led to defensive, “besieged” mentality.
• Key lesson: Genuine equality and security only possible if “the main profiteers—the extremely wealthy and their companies—are removed from control of production.”
  • “I think this could be altered and done away with if you got rid of the main winners, the main profiteers, which are the extremely wealthy and their companies.” (25:28)

The Cold War as Lived Experience

(25:47–27:38)

• East Germany saw constant ideological battle—propaganda from both sides dominated daily life, primarily through TV.
  • “This conflict between east and west was fought out every evening on the TV screens because West German television was always telling the people in the GDR how bad things were.” (26:10)
  • Differing narratives between East and West produced a culture of whispered contradictions and cautious conversations.

Legacy of Socialism in Modern Germany

(27:39–28:32)

• The Social Democratic Party (SPD) rejects the GDR’s legacy.
• Die Linke (The Left), a successor party, is divided: some recall the merits of secure employment and affordable living, others distance themselves from the past.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On systemic inequality:
  • “That was what goes on every day in Washington and in all 50 state capitals. The money talks and the more money, the louder it talks.” — Richard Wolff (07:01)
• On social achievements in East Germany:
  • “In all the years, 38 years I lived there, I didn't see one single person sleeping in the street, or one single beggar.” — Victor Grossman (19:06)
• On lost security post-reunification:
  • “You weren't sure of a job. … You were willing to work overtime … just so that you wouldn't be fired. This was one of the differences.” — Victor Grossman (23:48)
• On what the US can learn:
  • “I think they should learn that only by taking over production into the hands of the people who work on it … this is the only way to solve the dangers ecological, the danger of atomic war, this terrible gap between the very, very wealthy and the very, very poor.” — Victor Grossman (25:10)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:26–02:05: Warren Buffett/Capitalism vs. Socialism
• 02:06–05:15: College Admissions Scandal
• 05:31–07:21: Lobbying and Tax Giveaways
• 07:49–08:49: Teacher Strikes in North and South Carolina
• 09:10–13:40: NDAs and Abuse of Power
• 14:31–17:30: Introduction and reasons for Grossman’s defection
• 18:03–21:57: Life in the GDR—pros and cons
• 22:00–24:10: Effects of German reunification
• 24:11–25:47: Lessons for the US
• 25:47–27:38: The Cold War as daily reality
• 27:39–28:32: Socialism’s legacy in modern German politics

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Conclusion

This episode blends a trenchant critique of contemporary capitalist excesses with a firsthand account of socialist governance in East Germany. Richard Wolff and Victor Grossman together paint a nuanced portrait—acknowledging both the material security and the political drawbacks of socialism, while exposing the inegalitarian, often corrupt dynamics of capitalism. Grossman’s lived experience punctuates abstract debates with concrete detail, challenging listeners to imagine systemic alternatives and question the persistent mythologies about both economic systems.

Transcript

[Richard Wolff]

Welcome, friends, to another edition of Economic Update, a weekly program devoted to the economic dimensions of our lives, our debts, our incomes, our wages, and how we think about all those things. I'm your host, Richard Wolff.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Well, today I want to begin with.

[Richard Wolff]

Warren Buffett, one of the richest people.

[Co-host/Commentator]

On this planet, who recently at a.

[Richard Wolff]

Meeting of his Berkshire Hathaway Corporation, commented on the growing interest in socialism and the comparisons between socialism and capitalism. He avowed that he was a 100% capitalist, which came as an immense surprise to nobody.

[Co-host/Commentator]

In addition, he answered a question.

[Richard Wolff]

What with a remark I thought was extraordinary.

[Co-host/Commentator]

I am afraid capitalism will always hurt some people.

[Richard Wolff]

Well, you know, coming from a person who is never in the group, some.

[Co-host/Commentator]

People, this was an extraordinary remark.

[Richard Wolff]

Because if capitalism will always hurt some people, and if today a whopping majority of people feel hurt by capitalism, then even by Mr. Berkshire Hathaway, Mr. Buffet, even by his lights, maybe a question ought to be asked.

[Co-host/Commentator]

He also boasted that he didn't think.

[Richard Wolff]

Socialism would come here in the next 50 to 20 to 30 years. That reminded me of President Trump, whose State of the Union message was that socialism would never come. All I can say is Mr. Buffett and Mr. Trump are part of a group.

[Co-host/Commentator]

It's the group of all those leaders.

[Richard Wolff]

In all those countries just before they went socialist who said the same thing. Let me turn now to the economic updates for today.

[Co-host/Commentator]

The big one that several of you.

[Richard Wolff]

Asked me to speak about is called the college admissions scandal.

[Co-host/Commentator]

It turned out that a clever hustler.

[Richard Wolff]

Named Rick Singer got an awful lot.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Of people to give him an awful.

[Richard Wolff]

Lot of moneywe're talking millions here to.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Arrange for their children to get into prestigious universities. He did this in a number of.

[Richard Wolff]

I was about to say unorthodox ways, but that would be inaccurate.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Let me tell you what he did.

[Richard Wolff]

He bribed coaches to make up stories about how these young people were great athletes when they weren't.

[Co-host/Commentator]

He arranged for others to take tests.

[Richard Wolff]

For them because their performance would have gotten them no chance at all. He bribed folks for changing grades that weren't so good.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Caught up in this scandal were famous.

[Richard Wolff]

Actresses Lori Loughlin and Felicity Huffman.

[Co-host/Commentator]

To make matters worse, some of the people who gave him huge amounts of money then took that money off of their income tax for tax purposes, claiming it was a contribution to the school.

[Richard Wolff]

You really have to admire their courage.

[Co-host/Commentator]

One Chinese couple in China paid Singer six and a half million dollars to get their daughter into Stanford University, where she is today. Why am I bringing this up?

[Richard Wolff]

Well, I want you to understand, if you don't already, what inequality means. And here's a juicy example.

[Co-host/Commentator]

It means people who can't make it.

[Richard Wolff]

In other ways use their money to do what their brains, for example, don't allow them to do.

[Co-host/Commentator]

You can't get your kid into school.

[Richard Wolff]

Buy the way in.

[Co-host/Commentator]

That's what inequality does. Most people get away with all of that because that's how our system works. Occasionally it's so gross, as in this.

[Richard Wolff]

Scandal, that it gets out into the public awareness and we tell each other stories about how it shouldn't be. So let me add a story a little different. I was a student at Harvard in my undergraduate life. And one of the things that surprised.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Me was that there were so many in my dorms who didn't want to be there, who weren't happy there, who had no interest in education, who couldn't.

[Richard Wolff]

Do the work that was asked of.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Them, not because they weren't smart, but because they weren't interested. And when I asked them, well, you know, why are you here? They told me, my parents bought my.

[Richard Wolff]

Way in and there was no conversation. I had to do it.

[Co-host/Commentator]

So the irony is, even for many of the young people involved, this is.

[Richard Wolff]

Not a happy outcome.

[Co-host/Commentator]

But I want you to keep in.

[Richard Wolff]

Mind that when people flash a college degree, a university degree, a Harvard degree.

[Co-host/Commentator]

A USC degree, keep in mind what it really means.

[Richard Wolff]

It's a crapshoot. You may be getting someone who knows something, but you're just as likely to get someone whose money is what you're talking to. Then there's another example of inequality. It's called lobbying.

[Co-host/Commentator]

If you have a lot of money.

[Richard Wolff]

You can hire a bunch of high priced lawyers, accountants to work on the state legislators or the federal legislators to get the kind of law you want. And a story on May 1 in the New York Times epitomizes this. And so I wanted to make sure you were all aware of it.

[Co-host/Commentator]

It's about a New Jersey lawyer named Kevin Sheehan.

[Richard Wolff]

His firm had close ties with Democratic leaders who run the state of New Jersey. And they allowed him, several of them.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Did, to write the actual words in.

[Richard Wolff]

The laws before they were passed.

[Co-host/Commentator]

And he wrote in the words that.

[Richard Wolff]

Helped the corporations that had hired him to. To be a lobbyist.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

How nice.

[Richard Wolff]

Or to be an advisor if he wasn't an official lobbyist. How nice.

[Co-host/Commentator]

And here's what the New York Times research. The companies got a break on their taxes worth $260 million.

[Richard Wolff]

That's money deprived of the state of New Jersey, unavailable, therefore to maintain the schools, the hospitals, the roads, all the public services. How much did the state benefit for.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Giving away $260 million in taxes? The New York Times calculated it $155,000 lost 260 million gained 155,000.

[Richard Wolff]

That was what goes on every day in Washington and in all 50 state capitals. The money talks and the more money, the louder it talks. And that's how the laws get shaped. And that's why there's budget crunch at the state level and at the federal level. When those politicians tell you there's no.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Money to do the things you, your.

[Richard Wolff]

Children, your neighbors need, that's not true. The money is there, but it's been given away to those with the biggest purse to pay the biggest bunch of lobbyists. I want to take my hat off in my next update to the teachers of north and South Carolina who have been conducting strikes against those two states bureaucracies.

[Co-host/Commentator]

You know, the Deep south is not.

[Richard Wolff]

A place where you read about strikes too often. It's a place that is hesitant to go that road. But it's been too much for too long for the public school teachers of north and South Carolina. Both of them, around May Day staged major public strikes and actions saying that the children of the state have been.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Neglected by no funding for the schools.

[Richard Wolff]

Inadequate funding for the teachers who are among the lowest paid in the 50 states of the United States nation. Nor did those teachers shy away from.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Pointing the finger where it belongs, not.

[Richard Wolff]

Really at the politicians, because they're just puppets. The politicians are cutting the budgets of school systems around the country because they don't have the courage to tax rich people and corporations, which is where the money is. Which is where the money has been accumulating and which has been buying those politicians silent until and unless the teachers, like other working people, fight back. Hats off to the teachers of north and South Carolina. My last economic update has to do with another story in the news that I want to speak with you about because of the lessons it teaches.

[Co-host/Commentator]

This has to do with NDAs. What's an NDA?

[Richard Wolff]

Non disclosure of Agreement. You know, that's what President Trump arranged for a couple of women that he had relationships with to sign so that they wouldn't go public with the sex he had with them. They signed NDAs.

[Co-host/Commentator]

So did a lot of the people.

[Richard Wolff]

Caught up in the scandals around Hollywood. Producers, big name TV personalities.

[Co-host/Commentator]

It turns out that this is a routine in America and in other countries.

[Richard Wolff]

My attention, in fact, was won to this issue by a story from Australia.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Where they have put up a new government agency that is looking into NDAs. They named a famous lawyer, Kate Jenkins.

[Richard Wolff]

To lead this effort.

[Co-host/Commentator]

And she circulated a memo asking corporate leaders whether they were prepared now to.

[Richard Wolff]

Open up their NDA so everybody would know that this was going on.

[Co-host/Commentator]

She expected they would because many of them had said this was a good idea. They mostly refused. She got six companies to give her access.

[Richard Wolff]

The rest refused. Why?

[Co-host/Commentator]

Because NDAs are a way for wealthy people to. To buy their way out of being.

[Richard Wolff]

Held accountable for what they do. You violate someone's privacy, you abuse someone sexually, and you are afraid that the victim may say something. So you say to the victim, I'll buy your silence. How much? And then you negotiate the price. And of course there's a threat, because if the victim doesn't agree, then you're going to throw lawyers and public relations slime against them. Very scary. Most people sign.

[Co-host/Commentator]

The BBC in London recently did a study and discovered that universities in that country over just the last two years paid out $110 million in NDA agreements. In the United States, millions have been paid to just a few that caught the public eye.

[Richard Wolff]

Mr. O' Brien in the Fox empire, Mr. Weinstein in Hollywood and so on. Wow.

[Co-host/Commentator]

It turns out that New York State has a law, but like so often.

[Richard Wolff]

The law is window dressing.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Here's what the law you can't have an NDA between an employer and an employee unless the employee agrees to request one. Okay? So the employer, instead of saying, sign.

[Richard Wolff]

This or I'll really hurt you, he.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Now says, ask for this or I'll really hurt you. You haven't changed anything.

[Richard Wolff]

And you won't, not with this reform or another.

[Co-host/Commentator]

Because this kind of abuse and behavior.

[Richard Wolff]

With its countless victims is a result of a working system, a job system, a workplace arrangement in which some people have power and a lot of money and other people don't. The inequality of wealth and power built into our capitalist enterprise is an invitation that has been accepted by countless top executives, people above other people in the hierarchy of capitalist enterprises, abusing their economic position for whatever other needs they have and coercing those below them to accept a deal for money and silence. Is it ugly? You bet. But don't think that this or that rule, that imposed by the company or by the government is going to get around the problem. It's the system's inequality that lies at the root of this behavior. If you reorganized enterprises so that they were democratically organized with everybody with an equal voice, then you would see this behavior stop. We've come to the end of the first half. Please remember to Support us at YouTube with YouTube.com democracyatwork Use our websites rdwolfwith2f's.com and democracyatwork.info Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, which you can do by that.

[Co-host/Commentator]

And as always, thank you to our.

[Richard Wolff]

Patreon community for the support and encouragement that makes all this possible and that we appreciate enormously. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

[Richard Wolff (Second Half Introduction)]

Welcome back, friends, to the second half of today's Economic Update. It is my pleasure to introduce a remarkable man whom I've asked to join with us because he can tell us what stories and realities we would not otherwise have access to. His name is Victor Grossman. He was born Stephen Wexler, a New York red diaper baby of the 1930s. As a Harvard student, which is where he went to school, he joined the Communist Party. He also served in the US army and settled in East Germany. At the end of the war, he became a freelance writer and a popular speaker in East Germany, where he has lived in the city of Berlin ever since. In 2003, he published a book called Crossing the A Memoir of the American Left, the Cold War and Life in East Germany. He has recently published a new book.

[Richard Wolff]

Which is part of why I asked.

[Richard Wolff (Second Half Introduction)]

Him to join us today. That book is called A Socialist Defector from Harvard to the Karl Marx Allee.

[Richard Wolff]

Which is a major street in Berlin.

[Richard Wolff (Second Half Introduction)]

If you're interested in some of the specifics and particulars of his remarkable life, take a look at this new book and it'll give you many details.

[Richard Wolff]

Victor, welcome to the program. Glad to have you.

[Victor Grossman]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Richard Wolff]

Okay, I would guess my listeners and my viewers will want to know as their first question, give us an idea of why you made a decision as an American student, as an American gi, to spend the rest of your life in East Germany. What was that about?

[Victor Grossman]

It wasn't voluntary, really. It was because I had been an active leftist at Harvard before then and after partly as a, as a red diaper baby. And then I was drafted. I was lucky not to be sent to Korea, but to West Germany at that time, hoping that they would not that the army would not check up and find that I had been a leftist and had not admitted that when they filling out as a questionnaire because if they caught me that I had been lying, five years sentence was due was possible. So when I found out that they did find out about my past, I saw five years, my God. And that's when I decided in real panic to desert. And I did in a very dramatic way. I deserted by crossing from the American zone of Austria to the Soviet zone, which meant swimming across the Danube River. And I managed that really in panic, but safely, as you see, I arrived safely.

[Richard Wolff]

So you've lived the last several decades of your life in East Germany in.

[Richard Wolff (Second Half Introduction)]

What was then the official name, the.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

German Democratic Republic, the DDR, as it was called there.

[Richard Wolff (Second Half Introduction)]

Having lived there, having lived in that.

[Richard Wolff]

Society, give us your sense of the strengths and weaknesses, what you think was an accomplishment we can learn from, and what was something we need to learn to avoid. How would you put that together?

[Victor Grossman]

There were about four reasons why I felt close to the gdr, why I really felt myself a part of it. One basic reason was because, right starting in 1945, under pressure from the Soviets who occupied it, they got rid of all of the war criminals who. Who had been guilty of Hitler's crimes in the war. That's where these big industry, banks and so forth, who had built Hitler up and profited from his war, they were all thrown out. And that for me was, as a Jewish, anti fascist, especially important. The second thing was because East Germany, as opposed to West Germany, supported Allende in Chile, South African freedom movement, the anti Franco movement in Spain, North Vietnam. These were things which were part of my upbringing, always for the underdog, and I supported it. A third reason was because the gdr, in its way, which was very complicated, that I would come to with the bad parts, but it was trying to establish a society where nobody was poor, where poverty was done away with, and it largely succeeded in this. In fact, one of the main things I think of when I go through the streets, coming now to visit the States again. In all the years, 38 years I lived there, I didn't see one single person sleeping in the street, or one single beggar. And to add to that, they succeeded with a certain basic tax, that all medical expenses were covered, everything, including all prescription coverage. You never paid a penny anymore. And education the same. I went to college. My we didn't not only pay no tuition, you got a certain amount every month to cover basic expenses, things like that. The same with maternal leave and childcare was free. These were good things that I liked. As for the bad things, because of this, because they chased out all these big shots and huge economic things, and because a lot of people never really appreciated this or liked. Some people took it for granted this after a while, that they didn't pay only a tenth of their pay, pay for rent for example, they were constantly under pressure from the West. Constantly. And little East Germany, which is only a third of Germany, could never compete with rich West Germany, with all its modern commodities and its Marshall Plan, money, et cetera. It could never compete. It was able to make sure that everybody had enough to get along. But an awful lot of goods were missing. Good, nice cars, even many fruits. Bananas were short, for example, many other commodities. And this made put them at such a disadvantage that many people thought, gee, we want to go across. And this forced or this meant a degree of repression, which was the basic negative part of East Germany.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Repression in terms of. Give us a little sense of what that meant.

[Victor Grossman]

Well, there was no freedom of the press. For example, the press, the publications, all the media were basically directed by the central party. That means there were variations and there were phases where it was stricter and less strict, but by and large, there was no freedom of the press. And also people were not afraid of the Stasi and everything where they said this secret state security. They talked freely in private terms and generally, but in public, at meetings and so forth, people were careful as to what they said. They wouldn't be thrown in jail, but they might not get a bonus, they might not get a promotion, they might not get this or that perk or advantage.

[Richard Wolff]

Okay, let's move forward.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

In 1989, 1990, the Soviet Union imploded on itself. Eastern Europe shifted, and in Germany there was a reunification. The east and the west, which had been separate countries since the end of the Second World War, were reunited.

[Richard Wolff]

Tell us what that meant for Eastern.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Germany to be reunited in one country.

[Richard Wolff]

How has that changed Germany? What's your sense of the significance of this reunification for Germany then to become the dominant economy of Europe and all the other consequences?

[Victor Grossman]

The first, the positive side, which is very strong, is that that families which had been divided were able to get together. East Germans were able to travel to Western countries, which had been very difficult. Very, very difficult. They could travel to the east, but not to the West. Except pensioners could, but others were limited. So there was free travel and a huge new array of modern commodities. The shops were full. The department stores and the supermarkets were full. This was a big advantage. And of course, the pressures I spoke of in the media, they became much more, well, sensational. There was now advertising. We didn't have advertising in East Germany before, basically. But the disadvantage was that almost from the start, within the first two years, the entire industry was destroyed, the entire industry of East Germany and most of the agriculture as well, which meant that Millions were out of jobs. And not only that, but youth clubs were disbanded. Childcare became expensive. Medical care was still much better than it is here in the United States. But it meant now that you had to pay for your glasses, you had to pay for your hearing aids, you had to pay for prescriptions. So there were many disadvantages. And especially you weren't sure of a job. You didn't know what was going to happen tomorrow, and you were willing to work overtime or weekends just so that you wouldn't be fired. This was one of the differences.

[Richard Wolff]

Wow.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

All right. Here's a question that two people asked me to ask you.

[Richard Wolff]

What would you say, based on your.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Life in a very different society, what are the things that the United States could learn from what eastern Germany did for those years that it was the German Democratic Republic?

[Victor Grossman]

Well, of course, it should not learn from the repressive side. But then the little GDR was always under pressure from outside that led to this repression. They were defending themselves. As I used to say, a besieged fortress is never very tolerant. But what they could learn is, I think that only when you get rid of these huge, huge millionaires and billionaires, you quoted one earlier. I think they will never permit most of the people to have a free and decent life. I think it will get. With every crisis, it will get worse. It that. I think they should learn that only by taking over production into the hands of the people who work on it and with the experts, of course, who learn to do that. I think this is the only way to solve the dangers ecological, the danger of atomic war, this terrible gap between the very, very wealthy and the very, very poor, which I notice every day here. I think this could be altered and done away with if you got rid of the main winners, the main profiteers, which are the extremely wealthy and their companies.

[Richard Wolff (Second Half Introduction)]

Do you have a sense of the.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Cold War, this extraordinary period from 1945, roughly until 1989, for lack of a better term, what is.

[Co-host/Commentator]

What did it mean?

[Richard Wolff]

You lived your life, in a sense, on the other side. How does it look looking back?

[Interviewer/Moderator]

What was that period?

[Co-host/Commentator]

What was it about?

[Victor Grossman]

Well, it was extremely tense because the GDR was always conscious of the fact that West Germany officially wanted to take over. They said reunite. It was basically more taking over because it was like colonization, even though many people rejoiced at it. But this conflict between east and west was fought out every evening on the TV screens because West German television was always telling the people in the GDR how bad things were. And the GDR television was Trying to tell them how good things are. Interestingly, the West, Sherman Television, right or wrong, was very skillful, more skillful than the gdr, which was often, not always, but often very dull. So that there was this constant based on TV was the main manifestation of the Cold War. And a constant question. You'd have two women standing on line waiting for roles in the morning, and one would talk to the other. They say, last night I sort of made a mistake. I pushed the wrong button. In other words, I got Western television. And the other lady says, oh, I did too, by the way. And they'd start chatting about Western television, unless maybe a man standing next to them was wearing a party button. And then they would perhaps not talk about it because he would make a fuss. He'd say, what are you doing listening? And Tevadis. This was sort of a situation. It was in all our lives, all the time, this east west conflict.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Last question. We have time for, unfortunately. What's the legacy now? Do the left wing parties, either the German Socialist Party or the new Die Linke Party, are they in some sense carrying on at least the plus side, the positive sides? Do you see some return to an interest in those things that the GDR did?

[Victor Grossman]

Well, first of all, the Social Democratic Party as its title. No. They are opposed to everything involved with the gdr. The Left Party, the Linke, as it's called in Germany, is somewhat divided. Many members of this Left party say, we don't want to return completely to the gdr, but some of the things were very good that you had. Job security, cheap rent and things like that.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Victor, I wish we had more time. Thank you for your reminiscences and your thoughts. Thank you all for listening. A glimpse without good guys and bad guys to the strengths and weaknesses of another socialist effort is something I thought would be worth bringing to your attention. I look forward to speaking with you again next week.