Economic Update: Police and Policing in the US

Podcast: Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff
Host: Richard D. Wolff (Democracy at Work)
Guest: Alex S. Vitale, Professor of Sociology, Brooklyn College; Author, The End of Policing
Date: February 7, 2019

Episode Overview

This episode addresses the economic factors influencing public education strikes and the broader state of social infrastructure in the United States before turning to a critical examination of policing. The second half features an in-depth interview with sociologist Alex S. Vitale, who challenges mainstream police reform efforts and advocates for a dramatic rethinking of the role of policing in America. The discussion weaves together economic systems, politics, racism, austerity, and the consequences of social disintegration.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Economic Squeeze on Public Education (00:10–14:30)

• Backdrop of Recent Teacher Strikes: Wolff reviews nationwide teacher strikes—including Los Angeles—to highlight systemic underfunding and the economic marginalization of public educators.

  • Causes of Strikes:
    • Poor pay and resource deprivation
    • Reduction in public funding due to broad structural changes
    • Reluctance of employers to financially support education, partly due to hiring educated immigrants and offshoring production (00:55–03:00)
    • Growth of for-profit and charter schools, competitive interests undermining public education (03:10)
    • Conservative pushback against strong public sector (teacher) unions
    • Economic pressures on working-class families “willing to go that way [against public funding] even if it hurts their schools” (05:13)

• Broader Consequences:

  • Economic competitiveness depends on public education, yet it's being weakened.
  • Social fragmentation: Divide between those able to opt out (private/charter schools) and the rest left in deteriorating conditions (07:00)
  • Erosion of social cohesion and prediction of long-term societal harm.

  Notable Quote:

  "Every economist I know knows that the future of the American economy... depends first and foremost on the quality and the quantity of the labor force in this country. And if we disinvest in that... we are hurting ourselves in the future badly."
  — Richard D. Wolff (06:38)

2. The Government Shutdown and Social Disintegration (10:10–14:35)

• Analysis of the 2019 US Government Shutdown:

  • Critique of the political farce over border wall funding: “$5.6 billion... compared to a budget... $4.4 trillion... is pocket change.” (12:35)
  • Both political parties criticized for pandering to their narrow bases instead of addressing substantive national issues.
  • The shutdown and public education crisis interpreted as symptoms of deeper social breakdown:
    • “A public school system breaking down, of a governmental apparatus disintegrating into absurd contests over secondary issues while the primary ones go unattended. These are signs of, of social disintegration.” (13:47)

• Historical Parallel:

  • Wolff compares the current US situation to the Soviet Union’s internal collapse, emphasizing the danger of societal implosion.

  Notable Quote:

  "The Soviet Union imploded of itself. Its own internal inability to solve its problems... Are we observing that here now?"
  — Richard D. Wolff (14:10)

3. Interview: Policing in the US with Alex Vitale (15:23–28:41)

A. Origins and Expansion of Policing (15:23–16:49)

• Policing has two roots:

  • Historic: Colonialism, slave patrols, worker management (15:48)
  • Modern: Massive expansion since the 1970s—war on drugs, border policing, school policing, rise of SWAT and mass incarceration

  Notable Explanation:

  "The problem of policing [has] a kind of 400 year old problem... but then there's a more recent element... this dramatic expansion... beginning with the war on drugs, but including the expansion of border policing, school policing..."
  — Alex Vitale (15:45)

B. Racial Politics and Mass Incarceration (16:49–19:32)

• Political Construction of Policing: Nixon era strategies coopted civil rights backlash, recoded segregation as “war on drugs/crime,” targeting communities of color (16:54).

• Citing Michelle Alexander: Mass incarceration is a “political project... tied to the politics of racial resentment and... public sector austerity.” (17:51–18:41)

  Notable Quote:

  "The nature of the criminalization of communities of color in the United States is a political problem. It has nothing to do with public safety, nothing to do with crime, or only marginally about those things."
  — Alex Vitale (17:54)

• Irony and Hypocrisy: Wolff notes how the West mocked Eastern European arrests of “criminal elements” (dissidents), yet mirrors the same “political project” domestically (18:54).

C. The Futility of the War on Drugs and Border Policing (19:32–21:18)

• The War on Drugs has utterly failed: "Drugs are cheaper, easier to get, higher quality, overdoses are through the roof... It's never achieved [its supposed purpose]." (19:34)

• Policing immigration is not about border security but “the production of whiteness”: historic and contemporary exclusion policies as racial projects (20:45)

  Notable Quote:

  "Border policing has never been about closing the border... It's about a production of whiteness, really. It's about a set of economic and social relationships."
  — Alex Vitale (20:48)

D. Rethinking the Role of Police—Abolition and Investment (21:18–24:45)

• Vitale argues for a “divest-invest” model:

  • Divest from policing, invest in addressing social problems through community-based supports instead of coercion.
  • Police should not be the default institution for “managing the consequences of inequality." (22:45)
  • Only a small fraction of policing deals with actual violence that requires armed intervention.

• Wolff on Economic Resources: Envisions massive savings from decarceration/police reduction could fund the very community supports necessary for long-term safety and well-being (23:14–23:54)

• Vitale amplifies: Real change requires systemic economic restructuring, not just budget shifts; must reconsider broader choices (military, welfare, jobs programs) (23:54)

  Memorable Line:

  “Show me the problem and then let's see if we can figure out a non-authoritarian solution to it… The vast majority of what policing does is really about managing the consequences of inequality.”
  — Alex Vitale (22:20)

E. Shifting Public Attitudes and Political Momentum (24:45–27:27)

• Vitale’s initial expectation was that critical perspectives on policing would be marginal, but real-world events (Ferguson, death of Eric Garner) have seeded grassroots movements seeking alternatives (24:57)

  • Popular “reforms” (body cameras, community policing) lack evidence; real change requires "political accountability" and investment beyond policing.

• Parallels to Educators: Both teachers and police are expected to compensate for societal breakdowns with no resources (25:45).

• Education and policing intersect—overreliance on school police, disinvestment, privatization all worsen outcomes (27:01–27:27).

  Notable Quote:

  “Kids... are bringing their problems from home and the community into the school, giving the teachers no resources to deal with them. That's part of what the LA teachers are upset about.”
  — Alex Vitale (27:18)

F. Revitalizing the Community Model (27:27–28:05)

• Vitale honors community schools, restorative justice, and robust public reinvestment as strategies for positive transformation—rejecting criminalization and privatization.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Social Disintegration:

  "These are signs of... social disintegration. And they have to be taken seriously, because if something isn't done... it will continue to deteriorate and may get us to a point where we'll be unable to prevent the final dissolution."
  — Richard D. Wolff (13:47)

• On the War on Drugs:

  "By any metric than you can imagine, it's a complete failure. Right. Drugs are cheaper, easier to get, higher quality... And yet we persist in this idea that we need the war on Drugs to keep our kids safe... we need to just end the war on drugs."
  — Alex Vitale (19:36)

• On Racialization and Immigration:

  "It's about a production of whiteness, really. It's about a set of economic and social relationships."
  — Alex Vitale (20:47)

• On School Resource Officers:

  "In New York, we understand that there are more police than counselors in the city schools and that's got to end."
  — Alex Vitale (28:01)

Timestamps for Significant Segments

• 00:10–14:35: Wolff’s monologue on strikes, education funding, employer disinterest, and shutdown/macro-level consequences
• 15:23–16:49: Introduction to Alex Vitale and historical context of policing
• 16:49–19:32: Nixon-era racial politics and mass incarceration; referencing Michelle Alexander
• 19:33–21:18: Failures of the War on Drugs, racialized border policing
• 21:18–24:45: Rethinking policing—“divest-invest,” economics of shifting resources
• 24:45–27:27: Rise of grassroots critique, parallels to education; pitfalls of superficial reforms
• 27:28–28:41: Community school movements as models for positive change; concluding remarks

Closing Emphasis

Both Wolff and Vitale advocate for systemic, not piecemeal, change—shifting from punitive, authoritarian responses (in both policing and education) to community investment and public accountability. The episode calls attention to deep-rooted social and economic fractures and challenges listeners to look beyond surface reforms toward solutions that build equity and repair the social fabric.

For listeners seeking a critical, structural analysis of both our public institutions and the policing system, this episode offers an accessible but uncompromising entry point—rich in historical perspective, policy critique, and contemporary urgency.