Economic Update: Pro-Environment, Anti-Capitalist

Podcast: Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff
Host: Richard D. Wolff (Democracy at Work)
Guest: Carol Dansereau
Date: June 6, 2016

Overview of the Episode

This episode of Economic Update explores the intersection of environmental activism and anti-capitalist critique. Richard D. Wolff discusses recent student activism against fossil fuel investment, the broader principle of socially responsible economics, systemic economic problems such as inequality and predatory lending, and finally hosts environmental attorney Carol Dansereau. Dansereau shares insights from her decades of environmental activism, arguing that sustainable solutions are blocked by capitalism itself. The episode presents a hopeful yet urgent call for systemic change and economic democracy to save both the environment and society.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Student Anti-Fossil Fuel Activism at UMass Amherst (00:00–09:35)

• Event Recap:
  Students at the University of Massachusetts Amherst organized a sit-in, demanding the university divest its endowment from fossil fuel companies.
• Outcome:
  Despite initial resistance and arrests, the university agreed to divest approximately $5 million from fossil fuel companies.
• Wider Significance:
  Wolff frames the action as part of a growing nationwide movement among students and citizens.
• Critical Insight:
  The students challenge the economic principle that profit maximization should guide investment decisions:

  "They were questioning the market which would dictate that UMass only invest its endowment where the rate of return is the largest. They were saying, ‘No, those are not the proper standards.’" — Richard Wolff [07:05]

2. Broader Critique of Profit-Driven Economics (09:36–15:03)

• Minimum Wage Analogy:
  Wolff links fossil fuel divestment to paying fair wages, criticizing how markets and profit motives perpetuate inequality.
• Central Message:
  Rethinking the logic of profit is a powerful step towards a more just society.

3. Systemic Inequality and Its Consequences (15:04–18:47)

• Economic Inequality:
  The host explains how stagnant wages and growing wealth gaps eventually undermine everyone, including the wealthy.
• Debt and Crisis:
  Stagnant wages led to increased consumer debt, which, when speculated upon, exploded in the 2008 financial crisis.
• Modern Twist:
  Undocumented immigrants’ lack of healthcare (e.g., during Zika outbreaks) ultimately threatens public health, illustrating how inequality boomerangs on society at large:

  "It is not smart, it is not humane, and it is not safe to treat people in these unequal ways." — Richard Wolff [18:34]

4. Corporate Profit, Product Safety, and Systemic Risk (18:48–24:44)

• Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC):
  Handling about one product recall per day, the CPSC’s work uncovers systemic corporate behavior.
• Profit Motive Undermines Safety:
  Recalls often happen years after companies knew of dangers (e.g., Takata airbags, VW emissions, Exxon and climate change).
• Key Critique:
  The issue is not mere ‘honest mistakes,’ but a profit system incentivizing secrecy about hazards:

  "It’s profitable to companies... to continue to produce and sell dangerous, defective products that they know to be such." — Richard Wolff [22:55]

5. The Payday Loan Trap and Systemic Exploitation (24:45–29:06)

• Definition & Scale:
  Payday lenders target the financially desperate, trapping 19 million Americans in loans with average annualized interest approaching 400%.
• Predatory Lending’s Societal Cost:
  Fees alone total $7 billion yearly, largely extracted from economically vulnerable people.
• Political Responses:
  • Trump: Remove watchdog agencies
  • Sanders: Cap interest at 15%
  • Clinton: Maintain protections, but less specific.
• Debunking Defenses:
  Wolff dismantles pro-payday loan arguments, noting the fallacy that eliminating exploitative loans would destroy jobs, since savings would stimulate other spending/employment.
• Systemic Critique:
  The real issue is a system generating desperation and exploitation, not lack of consumer ‘choice’:

  "We have some people who have an immense amount of money... and a vast number of people who don’t... They become bait for these bottom fishers, as they’re known in the economic lingo of this industry." — Richard Wolff [28:15]

Interview: Carol Dansereau – The Environmental Movement and Capitalism (30:10–56:45)

Carol Dansereau's Background (30:10–31:16)

• Environmental attorney, activist, and nonprofit leader with 30+ years of experience.
• Author of "What It Will: Rejecting Dead Ends and False Friends in the Fight for the Earth."
• Work with both farmworker families and major environmental coalitions.

Why Devote Life to Environmental Activism? (31:37–33:16)

• Driven by concern for pollution, toxic chemicals, and direct suffering, especially among farmworker families.
• Broad public desire for environmental justice, but systemic change remains elusive.

Key Insight: Capitalism as the Central Barrier (33:16–35:40)

• Realizes, after years fighting for reforms, that:

  "All that caring, all that hard work... is really going to be for naught unless and until we acknowledge that we cannot win under this economic system, we simply can't win. We're not winning." — Carol Dansereau [33:07]

• Incremental victories are continually offset by new threats, while corporations grow more powerful.

How Activists Arrive at Systemic Critique (35:40–39:47)

• Initially blamed money in politics, leading to campaign finance reform efforts.
• Ultimately realized that industry influence permeates science, education, media, and public discourse—far beyond elections.
  • Example: Studies exonerating toxic chemicals are almost always industry-funded.
  • Corporate extortion: jobs, research access, and public narrative are controlled.
• Concludes:

  "The whole system is polluted because our economic system sets it up that way." — Carol Dansereau [39:20]

The Nonprofit Industrial Complex: Movement’s Lost Direction (41:21–44:09)

• Environmental nonprofits compete for funding, focusing on organizational survival over systemic change.
• Growing trend to operate like businesses, embracing brands and market models.
• Most funding comes from foundations and donors benefiting from capitalism, limiting radical advocacy.
• Environmental justice groups, often closest to pollution, receive only ~4% of foundation funding.

  "A lot of environmental groups...are not dealing with those issues, not led by those groups. ... Many of us are getting diverted into dead ends instead of using our energy for what we should be." — Carol Dansereau [43:48]

Prospects for a Pro-Environment, Anti-Capitalist Movement (44:09–51:54)

• Emergent Change:
  Growing numbers of environmentalists are recognizing the need for systemic, economic change:

  "I think that more and more people are realizing that we need systemic change. ... Under the surface, people I talk to…are devastated by the reality that we're not going to have justice, we're not going to even have survival." — Carol Dansereau [44:55]

• Despair vs. Hope:
  Despair surfaces when pretending incremental changes are enough; hope comes from facing reality and organizing for fundamental change.
• Power of the 99%:
  If the majority organizes beyond superficial reforms, rapid positive transformation is possible.

Systemic Solutions and Democratic Renewal (47:17–50:37)

• The necessity of linking environmental and economic justice.
• Real democracy, currently undermined by capitalism, requires putting major decisions in public hands.

  "There shouldn't be the need that this rapacious industry fills at an enormous cost to ... the lives of millions and millions of the American people." — Richard Wolff [29:04]

• Example of Grassroots Action:
  Farmworker communities conducting their own scientific monitoring to expose pesticide drift.

Critique of Political Parties and Real Representation (51:54–54:24)

• Both Republican and Democratic parties increasingly serve the 1%, not the 99%.
• Democrats offer pro-environment rhetoric but lack substantial action.
• Rising support for non-traditional candidates (Sanders, Trump) reflects general disgust with current system.
• Ultimate change requires building an independent, working-people's political party and mass organizing for economic democracy, not just electoral engagement.

  "You don't get that by rallying behind candidates and voting every four years. You get it by organizing for economic democracy." — Carol Dansereau [53:24]

Facing Crisis, Finding Hope (55:04–56:45)

• There are existing solutions for feeding everyone and addressing environmental crises.
• Growing public awareness and caring are converging—society is at a “do or die” juncture.

  "The hope comes from...the caring for our world and our children's future is there and the knowledge is catching up with that caring. ... I'm hoping ... that we will make that jump to real systemic change so that we can really get where we need to go and save our planet." — Carol Dansereau [55:41]

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• "What the students in their modest way at UMass did is question the logic of profit as a calculus ... We have wider, broader concerns ... and they ought to be part of all economic decisions." — Richard Wolff [07:19]

• "We have some people who have an immense amount of money...and a vast number of people who don't... They become bait for these kinds of bottom fishers." — Richard Wolff [28:15]

• "All that caring ... is really going to be for naught unless and until we acknowledge that we cannot win under this economic system, we simply can't win." — Carol Dansereau [33:07]

• "It's not an accident. It's how capitalism works. ... The whole system is polluted because our economic system sets it up that way." — Carol Dansereau [39:20]

• "Despair comes when we pretend we're winning and we know we're not or we don't understand what's going on. When you face into things, the path forward is quite obvious, as is our power." — Carol Dansereau [45:12]

• "A commitment to democracy, like a commitment to the environment, pretty soon moves you to a position of being critical of a system, of a capitalist system that seems to create that wall that prevents democratic desire from being realized." — Richard Wolff [51:19]

• "We are at a do or die point. We really are. But ... our knowledge is catching up with ... our caring. ... I’m hoping ... that we will make that jump to real systemic change so we can really get where we need to go and save our planet." — Carol Dansereau [55:41]

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 – Student fossil fuel divestment & profit logic critique
• 15:04 – Economic inequality as a systemic issue
• 18:48 – Corporate product safety failures
• 24:45 – Payday lending as predation on the poor
• 30:10 – Interview with Carol Dansereau begins
• 33:16 – Systemic barriers to environmental victory
• 39:20 – Capitalism’s pollution of all aspects of public life
• 41:21 – The nonprofit industrial complex and movement co-optation
• 44:46 – Toward a pro-environment anti-capitalist movement
• 51:54 – Critique of parties; mass organizing for economic democracy
• 55:04 – Reasons for hope and possibility of systemic change

Tone and Language

Throughout, the tone is urgent but hopeful, intellectually rigorous yet passionate. Both Wolff and Dansereau combine personal experience, economic theory, and pointed critique with an unwavering belief in the power of collective action and the possibility of a more just, democratic, and sustainable world.