Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

Episode: Teaching High School Economics

Date: November 2, 2015

Overview

In this episode, Richard D. Wolff explores the state of economic education in American high schools, the impact of recent financial crises on students and teaching, and broader systemic challenges. The first half features Wolff's signature economic analysis on current issues—including student debt policy, corporate malfeasance, and tax avoidance—while the second half is a candid interview with veteran high school educator Alan Shulman on the challenges and shortcomings of teaching economics to American youth in a post-2008 world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Student Debt and Bankruptcy Law (00:30–10:00)

• Case Study: Wolff discusses the plight of Robert Murphy, a father who accrued $220,000 in student loans for his children and, after financial setbacks, sought bankruptcy relief.

  • The Obama administration opposed Murphy’s discharge of student debt, arguing that bankruptcy should only be available in cases of “certainty of hopelessness” and “total incapacity to change.”

  • Wolff is critical of this argument, highlighting the unfairness compared to how bankruptcy is considered for corporations and governments.

  • Notable Quote (Richard Wolff, 04:10):

    "No bankruptcy judge turns to them and says, 'You know, Detroit, 30 years from now something may happen in a corner of Detroit that will make your city strong again. So we're not going to let you take bankruptcy.' This is craziness."

  • Wolff notes this is less about individual fairness and more about maintaining an economic system dependent on unsustainable debt roles.

2. Corporate Misdeeds – Tylenol/Johnson & Johnson (10:50–14:50)

• Wolff examines litigation against Johnson & Johnson/McNeil for Tylenol-related illnesses.

  • The company resisted efforts to lower dosage recommendations and include warning labels, prioritizing profit over consumer safety.

  • He frames this as emblematic of “profit-driven capitalism,” where the health of the public is subordinated to the interests of shareholders.

  • Notable Quote (Richard Wolff, 13:03):

    “There’s a clash between the profits made by people in the health care business by corporations and the health of the people they’re supposed to be serving. That’s a consequence of profit-driven capitalism.”

3. The Hidden Wealth of Nations / Tax Havens (14:52–17:53)

• Introduces Gabriel Zucman’s book, “The Hidden Wealth of Nations,” which documents how global elites and corporations use tax havens to avoid taxation.

  • 8% of global financial wealth and 55% of all foreign profits of U.S. firms are held in tax havens.

  • This leads to higher tax burdens on average citizens, not simply a “high vs. low taxes” debate but an issue of who pays versus who evades.

  • Notable Quote (Richard Wolff, 17:10):

    “The solution is not more or less taxes… The issue is who’s paying and who’s evading.”

4. University Divestment and Leadership Crisis (17:54–21:38)

• Wolff comments on MIT’s refusal to divest its $13.5 billion endowment from fossil fuels, joining Harvard and Yale.
  • He highlights the contradiction of wealthy, science-driven institutions refusing to act on the scientific consensus regarding climate change.
  • Cites student activist Jeffrey Supran:

    “MIT has put money before morals and its students’ future.” (20:53)

High School Economics Education: Interview with Alan Shulman

5. The State of High School Economics (30:26–33:51)

• Experience: Shulman, with decades in New York City education, outlines the structure:

  • Some specialized high schools focus well on economics, particularly for poor and immigrant communities.

  • The general curriculum, however, is still grounded in outdated assumptions about capitalism and opportunity.

  • Notable Quote (Alan Shulman, 31:50):

    “Almost all of the economics curriculum and units, including the Common Core standards... are predicated on capitalism and democratic capitalism being the system that’s going to work and incorporate all the people..."

• After 2008: Economic reality for students changed drastically after the Great Recession, eroding the relevance of curriculum based on “work hard and succeed” mantras.

• Teachers are often unprepared or reluctant to teach economics; it’s the least popular requirement, lacking a standardized test or curriculum.

6. Lack of Dialogue & Explanation Post-2008 (36:04–39:35)

• Shulman observes that neither students nor faculty receive clear explanations for the 2008 crash or its aftermath.
  • Economics teaching focuses more on test preparation and career pathways, not analysis of systemic failure.
  • There’s deepening disconnect between financial literacy taught in schools and the broader truths about economic insecurity, debt, precarious work, and the emotional consequences of economic instability.

7. Exploring Alternatives and Critical Thinking (39:35–45:19)

• Very little structured opportunity exists to question or discuss alternative economic systems; most schools adhere rigidly to old models.

• Any movement towards critical conversation or alternative curricula depends on exceptional administrators or “enlightened” teachers.

  • Notable Quote (Shulman, 41:00):

    “Because it’s a condition that the teachers don’t understand either, so there’s got to be a leap.”

• Economic education is divorced from history/social studies—resulting in students ill-prepared for both college and critical citizenship.

8. Call for Participatory Learning and Curriculum Reform (45:19–53:54)

• Wolff and Shulman propose a collaborative approach where students and teachers collectively seek to understand what’s gone wrong since 2008 and envision new solutions.

  • This requires honesty and humility at all levels—from high school to university:

    “Maybe there’s a turn in history that we don’t understand either, that this is a special period that now involves everybody in the chain.” (Shulman, 46:44)

• The lack of change is partly due to institutional inertia and alignment with business interests (textbook publishers, test-makers).

• Shulman notes a slow cultural shift in organizations like the teachers’ union, which are gradually becoming open to conversations about deep curriculum change.

9. The Future: Crisis as Opportunity (53:54–57:00)

• Both speakers agree that growing social and economic pressure will eventually catalyze reform—from below if necessary.
• Wolff: The absence of recovery and continued economic stagnation is building momentum for new, innovative, possibly even revolutionary approaches to education and economic organization.
  • Notable Quote (Wolff, 54:15):

    “It isn’t anymore business as usual. It isn’t going to pass, it isn’t going to be taken care of by somebody else. I’ve got to get out there and struggle with other like-minded people to make the changes we need.”

Memorable Quotes & Key Moments

• On Student Debt & Bankruptcy:
  “If you help him, you’re undercutting the current law which denies student borrowers the bankruptcy protection that is given to virtually all other borrowers.” (Wolff, 08:12)

• On Economic Education Post-2008:
  “Nobody really understands how money works anymore... and the fallout from the economic disaster in 2008, that's affected so many families.” (Shulman, 33:59)

• On the Still-missing Conversation:
  “What’s broken down is the conversation that needs to go on... about what future are we really preparing the kids of this city for?” (Shulman, 37:26)

• On the task ahead:
  “If we could get an honest critique of what went wrong with the capitalism we had... you would, I think, bring out, galvanize and inspire creativity and energies that we don’t see anywhere now.” (Wolff, 50:10)

Important Timestamps

• 00:30–10:00: Student debt, bankruptcy, and systemic dependence on debt
• 10:50–14:50: Tylenol court case, corporate behavior, and the ethics of profit
• 14:52–17:53: Tax havens and Zucman’s findings
• 17:54–21:38: University divestment campaigns and moral leadership
• 30:26–33:51: State of high school economics education
• 36:04–39:35: Absence of post-2008 economic analysis in schools
• 41:00–45:19: Teachers, students, and the challenge of economic understanding
• 45:19–53:54: Potential for participatory curriculum and youth-led change
• 53:54–57:00: Institutional inertia and the possibility of reform

Tone & Style

The episode is frank, reflective, and urgent. Both Wolff and Shulman blend analytical critique with personal anecdotes, underscoring both the systemic and personal impacts of economic dysfunction. There is skepticism, frustration, but also an undercurrent of hope grounded in honest dialogue and collective agency.

Summary

This episode dissects the profound gaps between the economic challenges facing young Americans and the education they receive about those challenges. Wolff’s critique highlights systemic inertia—whether in government, corporations, or educational institutions—while Shulman’s perspective from inside the classroom reveals a field struggling to catch up with reality. Their dialogue is a call for honesty, innovation, and participatory reform in economic education, setting the stage for youth empowerment—and perhaps broader societal change—in the wake of persistent crisis.