Podcast Summary: Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

Episode: "Why Whites in Trouble"

Date: November 30, 2015
Host: Richard D. Wolff
Guest: Dr. Harriet Fraad
Podcast by: Democracy at Work

Overview

This episode explores the complex connections between capitalism, social instability, and the decline in the well-being of middle-aged, working-class white men in America. Beginning with an analysis of economic trends like deindustrialization, globalization, and policy shifts, host Richard D. Wolff emphasizes how capitalism’s structural changes drive economic displacement and widespread alienation. In the second half, Dr. Harriet Fraad joins to discuss the dramatic rise in mortality and psychological distress among non-college-educated, middle-aged white men—a phenomenon highlighted by recent research. The conversation reveals the intertwined effects of economics, social change, gender roles, and personal identity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Economics of Immigration (00:00–13:30)

• Structural Causes: Capitalism’s drive for profit leads companies to seek lower labor costs by either outsourcing jobs abroad or bringing cheaper labor through immigration.
• Globalization Backlash: Communities have protested job losses, prompting corporations to use immigration as an alternative cost-cutting method.
• Capitalist Dilemma: Society faces a “choice” between job loss due to offshoring or social strains from poorly managed immigration—both rooted in profit-driven competition.

“If we recognize a problem and we understand what a contributing cause is, we'll be better able to solve the problem.”
— Richard D. Wolff (07:01)

2. Capitalism’s Instability (13:30–23:40)

• False Binaries: The debate between “alarmists" who say capitalism is collapsing and those who insist everything is fine is a distraction.
• Historical Record: Capitalism has shown chronic instability with recurring economic crises (e.g., Great Depression; 2008 crash).
• Unmet Needs: The irrationality of unemployed people alongside idle resources and unmet social needs is highlighted.

“A system that periodically produces this irrational juxtaposition of unemployed people, unused resources and unmet social needs is something about which you ought to be critical.”
— Richard D. Wolff (19:44)

3. Race to the Bottom: Corporate Taxes (23:40–28:43)

• Ireland’s Tax Strategy: Ireland slashes corporate taxes to attract businesses, bankrupting public services and forcing other countries to follow suit.
• Global Competition: This "race to the bottom" benefits corporations while hurting the general population through reduced public services or higher personal taxes.

4. Worker Co-Ops & Small Businesses (28:43–30:09)

• Transition to Cooperative Economies: Wolff addresses questions about the role of small businesses in a future dominated by worker cooperatives.
• Innovation Within Co-Ops: There is room for innovation and entrepreneurship; initial innovators can be rewarded, after which their businesses transition to co-ops.

“There would be a place for small businesses to get the benefit to all of society of allowing people who want to break the mold, who want to be unique...”
— Richard D. Wolff (29:33)

Main Interview: Dr. Harriet Fraad on White Male Distress (30:09–56:04)

5. Case and Deaton’s Mortality Study (30:09–32:26)

• Recent Findings: Middle-aged, non-college-educated white men in the U.S. are experiencing rising mortality rates, addiction, suicide, and mental distress, unlike other demographic groups.

“…middle aged white men without college degrees…there is a phenomenon of people who used to be at the height of their careers…to be zooming downward at a rapid clip.”
— Dr. Harriet Fraad (30:36)

6. Economic Dislocation & Masculinity Crisis (32:26–40:40)

• Economic Shifts: Traditional pathways like small business ownership and blue-collar jobs are disappearing due to automation, offshoring, and large corporations.
• Gender Role Upheaval: Women increasingly become primary earners and managers, leading to a reversal in traditional household dynamics.
• Personal Stories: Clients describe loss of status, increased divorce (most initiated by women, 70%), and declining self-worth.

“A lot of their sense of self-worth was tied up with their net worth and they feel worthless.”
— Dr. Harriet Fraad (40:11)

7. Lack of Societal Support (40:18–44:26)

• Failure to Intervene: Unlike the 1930s, there are no large-scale job or retraining programs; personal problems are individualized.
• The Hispanic Paradox: Hispanic men with similar education levels are faring much better, due to expectations of improvement and stronger social ties.

“For the white blue collar male, he's doing worse than he ever expected and therefore his sense of himself and his future is different.”
— Dr. Harriet Fraad (44:16)

8. Self-Blame vs. Societal Blame (44:26–46:47)

• Internalization of Failure: Most clients believe their depression is personal failure, not recognizing the broader socioeconomic causes.
• Health Consequences: Chronic stress from economic loss erodes physical and mental health.

9. Connecting the Personal and Social (46:47–51:07)

• Therapeutic Approach: Dr. Fraad encourages clients to see their struggles in a political and social context, which can relieve shame and foster connection.
• Changing Gender Roles: Men could find worth in home-making and nurturing, but this shift requires valuing unpaid domestic labor.

10. Policy and Structural Solutions (51:07–56:04)

• Job Creation: Proposes policies like Italy’s ‘Marcora law’ for co-op start-up funding, WPA-style jobs programs, and mandates for companies outsourcing jobs to provide community support.
• Need for Community & Counseling: Calls for personal and neighborhood support alongside economic reforms.
• International Examples: Denmark, Germany, and Sweden implement policies that cushion the impact of layoffs—something the U.S. lacks.

“…a personal terror of not having a future which is going right along with the economic terror.”
— Dr. Harriet Fraad (55:29)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Capitalism's Choices:

  “If we didn’t have businesses driven by profit and competition, we wouldn’t face this absurd choice and be trapped within it.”
  — Richard D. Wolff (11:05)

• On Rising Suicide Rates:

  “…suicide has gone crazy, for example. It’s five and a half times higher than it used to be for middle aged white men without college degrees…”
  — Dr. Harriet Fraad (30:52)

• On Social Programs and Solidarity:

  “We tend to make personal even the things that are or should be understood as social problems.”
  — Richard D. Wolff (41:16)

• On Gender Dynamics:

  “Men’s ways of asserting their masculinity won’t be going out and drinking with their buddies as much as taking care of their kids and feeling like a good man for it.”
  — Dr. Harriet Fraad (50:43)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Economics of Immigration & Capitalism’s Instability – 00:00–23:40
• Corporate Tax Competition (“Race to the Bottom”) – 23:40–28:43
• Worker Co-Ops & Small Businesses – 28:43–30:09
• Interview: White Male Mortality & Distress — Fraad – 30:09–56:04
  • Case & Deaton Study Introduced – 30:18
  • Therapist’s Observations – 32:26
  • Gender and Marital Dynamics – 34:00–40:18
  • Societal Response (or Lack Thereof) – 40:18–44:26
  • The Hispanic Paradox – 44:26–45:42
  • Therapeutic Practice: Connecting Social and Personal – 46:47–51:07
  • Policy Solutions & International Examples – 51:07–56:04

Conclusion & Takeaway

The episode draws a clear link between macroeconomic trends and personal crisis, arguing that America’s failure to address the fallout of capitalism’s restructuring has driven large numbers of middle-aged white men into despair. Both hosts advocate for urgent reforms—job creation programs, support for co-ops, and a reframing of economic loss as a societal, not personal, failure. Enhanced appreciation for caregiving and household labor, as well as broader communal support, are seen as vital to halting the crisis.

Quote to remember:

“To do economics properly, you have to take into account all of its social conditions and all of its social consequences...”
— Richard D. Wolff (56:14)