Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

EU Extra: Conversation with David Harvey

Date: November 20, 2018
Guest: David Harvey
Host: Richard D. Wolff
Main Theme:
This episode centers on analyzing the roots and trajectory of right-wing populism in the US, the role of centrist Democrats in paving the way for Trumpism, the prospects for genuine progress within left-leaning parties, generational political shifts, and the growing openness to socialist ideas and public ownership, both in the US and internationally.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Clinton/Obama Legacy and the Rise of the Right Wing

• Wolff opens (00:40) by questioning whether the centrist Democrats (Clinton, Obama) share responsibility for Trump's rise and current rightward trends in American politics.
• Harvey’s critique (01:05):
  • Argues that centrist Democrats absolutely “prepared the way” for right-wing populism.
  • Cites the Clinton administration’s major actions: NAFTA, ending welfare as it existed, repeal of Glass-Steagall, neglect of universal healthcare, and a distancing from labor interests.
  • Harvey notes the symbolic absence of labor representatives when NAFTA was signed, illustrating the party’s turn toward “urban elites and managerial classes” and away from working-class interests.
  • Quote:
    “Look at everything in the Clinton administration and it had nothing in it...The transformation of the Democratic Party from something that rested upon union power and working class interests to...urban elites and managerial classes.” (01:19, David Harvey)

2. The Futility of “Lesser Evilism” in US Politics

• Wolff asks (02:03) if Democrats can maintain the strategy of “vote for us because we're better than Trump,” essentially giving the public two “awful” choices.
• Harvey’s response:
  • Predicts that traditional party messaging won’t work anymore since the Democrats did little positive while in power.
  • Expresses personal dismay at another establishment Democratic ticket versus Trump.
  • Quote:
    “I don't want a Clinton Restoration. It's the last thing in the world I would want.” (02:44, David Harvey)

3. Contrasts between Labour Party UK and US Democrats

• Wolff notes (03:10) that unlike the Democrats, UK’s Labour under Corbyn seems more distinctive despite internal resistance.
• Harvey explains (03:51):
  • Corbyn’s ascent came from a democratization of the party base.
  • Many Labour MPs are still opposed, but broad membership supports him, a result of opening the party to all rather than maintaining elite control.
  • Advocates for similar democratization in the US: break from “big donors” to create a truly democratic party.
  • Quote:
    “If you get away from the big donors, you can actually start to create something that's much more democratic in the Democratic Party.” (04:46, David Harvey)

4. The “Age Factor” & Youth Openness to Socialist Ideas

• Wolff inquires (05:28) if younger generations are fundamentally more open to socialist or left ideas.

• Harvey reflects (06:00):

  • Teaching Marxism is now met with curiosity, not hostility; anti-communism and anti-socialism have faded.
  • The new generation is not inherently left but is more willing to listen and question.
  • Quote:
    “People don’t really understand anti-communism anymore...They're not hostile to it...I think there’s a real opening for us.” (06:33, David Harvey)

• Wolff concurs (06:55):

  • Notes that in talks to the public, anti-communism is almost invisible; critics of leftist ideas know they’re in the minority and are quiet.

5. Capitalism’s Crisis Creates Space for Critique

• Wolff connects (08:00) audience interest to disaffection with capitalism, especially after the 2008 crash and Trump’s presidency:

  • “Mr. Trump is my best organizer. The crash of 2008 opened the space for everything I do, including this program...There is a disaffection and an alienation going on that opens the space for us.” (08:14, Richard D. Wolff)

• Harvey responds (08:46) that convergence of various social movements (Black Lives Matter, feminist movements) with socialist ethics is a rising new opportunity.

6. Movements Toward Public Ownership and Anti-Capitalist Projects

• Wolff shares (09:31) about a new PhD program at the University of Utrecht focusing on “The Unmaking of Capitalism,” studying how social movements in Europe are confronting the need to move beyond capitalism.

• Harvey adds (10:20):

  • Advocates taking housing, healthcare, education, and transportation out of the market and returning them to the public domain—pointing to successful policies in the UK and broad popular support for such ideas, especially among youth.
  • Quote:
    “Housing does not belong in the market, healthcare does not belong in the market, education does not belong in the market...these should all be taken back into the public domain.” (11:14, David Harvey)
  • Notes that though the establishment media mocked Labour’s nationalization agenda, 60% of Britons support it.

• Wolff provides (12:10) a US example:

  • Baltimore’s 3-to-1 ballot initiative to keep water public, showing broad support for anti-privatization measures.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Democratic Party’s shift:
  “There was not a single representative of labor in the room [when NAFTA was signed].” (01:36, David Harvey)

• On the futility of establishment politics:
  “Why should people listen to them? Because when they had power, they didn’t do anything.” (02:36, David Harvey)

• On democratizing party politics:
  “If you opened up the Democratic Party and got away from the big donors...you can actually start to create something that's much more democratic in the Democratic Party.” (04:28, David Harvey)

• On the change in generational attitudes:
  “Teaching Marx right now is a different world from teaching it in the 1990s...People are curious about it and they're open to it.” (06:00, David Harvey)

• On the role of political crisis:
  “Mr. Trump is my best organizer. The crash of 2008 opened the space for everything I do...” (08:08, Richard D. Wolff)

• On public ownership:
  “If anybody calls that socialist, they can't say, well, in that case, I'm a socialist.” (11:53, David Harvey)

• On anti-privatization victory:
  “In Baltimore, Maryland...the city of Baltimore forbid any form of privatization of the water system...75% of the people voted for it.” (12:10, Richard D. Wolff)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:40–02:03: The Democratic Party’s culpability for Trumpism.
• 03:10–04:59: Labour’s democratization vs. US Democratic resistance; the role of party membership.
• 05:28–06:52: The generational shift in attitudes toward socialism and Marxism.
• 08:00–09:18: Disaffection with capitalism and convergence with social justice movements.
• 09:31–12:50: Examples of real-world anti-capitalist projects: PhD program in Utrecht, housing as a public domain, Baltimore’s water initiative.

Tone and Style

Conversational, deeply analytical, and passionate. Both Wolff and Harvey blend personal experience, scholarly insight, and historical context, with open skepticism toward centrist politics and optimism about shifting attitudes and potential for change—particularly among younger generations and emergent social movements.

Summary

In this candid discussion, Richard D. Wolff and David Harvey explore the failures of centrist Democrats, the missed opportunities to address working-class issues, the comparative vibrancy of the British Labour Party under Corbyn, and the generational erosion of anti-socialist bias in the US. The episode highlights how incidents like the financial crisis and Trump’s presidency generate openings for radical critiques of capitalism. The show closes with contemporary examples of anti-capitalist momentum—from public ownership of housing and water to the academic study of “unmaking” capitalism—signaling a sense of optimism and urgency for the left, reinforced by grassroots victories and growing public receptivity to socialism’s core propositions.