Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff
Episode: Noam Chomsky on Prospects and Tasks as 2021 Begins
Date: January 14, 2021
Overview
In this special episode, economist Richard D. Wolff is joined by renowned linguist, philosopher, and political activist Noam Chomsky. The conversation explores prospects for change as the Biden administration takes office in early 2021, examining whether meaningful progress is possible within existing American political structures. Drawing historical parallels and referencing contemporary economic crises, the discussion delves into the dangers of rising inequality, the continued influence of Trumpism, and the need for popular activism. Chomsky also reflects on Marxist and anarchist traditions and their relevance for U.S. politics today.
Key Themes & Discussion Points
1. Biden’s Economic Team & Prospects for Change
- Wolff opens the show critiquing President-elect Joe Biden's economic appointments, noting the presence of several Obama-era officials and asking whether any genuine progressivism can be expected.
- Progressive appointees—Heather Boucher, Jared Bernstein, and Janet Yellen—are noted, but:
- “These are also people who have never gone outside the consensus of Washington D.C. … they do not question capitalism ever.” [04:40, A]
- Wolff doubts meaningful change without strong pressure from movements below.
- Example from history: The transformative policies of FDR’s New Deal were only possible due to massive grassroots pressure.
- Progressive appointees—Heather Boucher, Jared Bernstein, and Janet Yellen—are noted, but:
2. Grassroots Movements as Drivers of Change
- Recent developments in Argentina are highlighted as an example of successful grassroots activism—the legalization of abortion achieved through coalition-building and mass mobilization, despite government and church opposition.
- “A mass mobilization from below … is already a reality in Argentina.” [09:20, A]
- Wolff draws a parallel to the U.S., arguing that similar movements are necessary to shift policy meaningfully.
3. Stock Market vs. Real Economy—Rising Inequality
- Wolff addresses the disconnect between stock market performance and the economic situation of ordinary Americans.
- “The stock market in New York City is, quote, ‘foaming at the mouth.’” [12:12, A, quoting an analyst]
- Only a small percent of Americans benefit significantly from stock market gains; 90% of shares are owned by 10% of Americans.
- Trillions of government stimulus dollars are inflating asset prices for the wealthy, not stimulating jobs or economic security for the majority.
- “It is a society ripped apart by its inequality. That's a story that never ends well.” [14:20, A]
4. Chomsky on the Prospects and Dangers Ahead
- Chomsky joins (15:38) and is immediately asked about the potential direction of U.S. policy after Trump and under Biden.
- Biden’s Approach:
- “The answer … will depend on the level of popular activism that works to press him towards a more somewhat more progressive social Democratic stand. If he's left, if there isn’t that pressure, he’ll revert to … neoliberal programs of the past 40 years.” [16:12, B]
- Particular urgency around existential issues like global warming.
- Persistence of Trumpism:
- “I don't think [Trump] is going away. … He'll be basically, I presume, trying to run kind of an alternative government in combination with Mitch McConnell, the real evil genius of the Trump administration, whose goal very likely will be to try to make the country ungovernable…” [17:17, B]
- Trump’s base remains highly loyal.
- Similar forces, resentment, and anger seen in other countries subjected to neoliberal policies—rising inequality, declining democracy.
- Biden’s Approach:
5. Historical Parallels—1930s and Today
- Chomsky draws on his childhood memories of the 1930s Depression to highlight two possible routes for societies under extreme stress:
- “There were essentially two ways out. One way out was fascism… The other possible way out was social democracy, which happened in the United States under the New Deal, under tremendous popular activism and pressure.” [21:20, B]
- The present moment, like then, is “a very delicate balance.”
6. Political Pathways for the Left
- Can change emerge from within the two-party system, or is an independent party necessary?
- “To form a viable third party under the highly regressive US political system is extremely difficult. It's not out of the question, should be attempted…” [23:14, B]
- Building an effective third party would require revival of the labor movement.
- “What's called the left here is [a] strange notion. So Bernie Sanders is called a radical… Universal health care… free higher education... everyone has it. … That’s what’s called way too far to the Left in the United States.” [24:06, B]
- A move to social democracy (the New Deal model) would be "a step towards moderate sanity."
7. Marxism, Anarchism, and American Radicalism
- Wolff asks Chomsky about the influence of Marxist and anarchist traditions moving forward.
- Chomsky notes that the terms “Marxist” and “anarchist” remain stigmatized in the U.S., unlike in other countries.
- “We have such a well functioning propaganda system that ideas that are normal in comparable countries are considered utterly beyond the pale here.” [26:25, B]
- The substance, if not the branding, is popular:
- “Working people should control the work environment and the enterprises… That’s an old American view. So common that it was the slogan of the Republican party under Abraham Lincoln…” [27:12, B]
- Chomsky sees potential to revive these traditions in substance if not in name.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Democratic Party Progressivism:
“They do not question capitalism ever … Could they become open to it? For sure…But that will depend on whether a movement from below develops.”
— Richard D. Wolff [04:40] -
On Inequality’s Dangers:
“It is a society ripped apart by its inequality. That's a story that never ends well.”
— Richard D. Wolff [14:20] -
On Biden’s Potential:
“He could be pressed, but it'll have to be pressed. It won't happen by itself.”
— Noam Chomsky [16:34] -
On Trump’s Enduring Influence:
“I don't think [Trump] is going away. … He’ll be basically, I presume, trying to run kind of an alternative government in combination with Mitch McConnell…”
— Noam Chomsky [17:17] -
On the Roots of Anger:
“Trump was a genius at tapping the poisonous undercurrents of American society and culture, like white supremacy. Crucially, he was able to bring them to the surface. They're not going away either.”
— Noam Chomsky [18:40] -
Historical Comparison:
“There were essentially two ways out. One way out was fascism ... The other possible way out was social democracy, which happened in the United States under the New Deal, under tremendous popular activism and pressure.”
— Noam Chomsky [21:20] -
On Defining the ‘Left’:
“A move towards moderate social democracy, a return to something of the New Deal style, would be a major step forward, but it's not left. It's a step towards moderate sanity.”
— Noam Chomsky [24:55] -
On the Power of Radical Traditions:
“Working people should control the work environment and the enterprises in which they work. That's an old American view.”
— Noam Chomsky [27:12]
Key Timestamps
- 00:10 — Wolff critiques Biden’s economic team and discusses the need for grassroots movements
- 07:36 — Argentina’s abortion victory and lesson in mass mobilization
- 12:05 — Stark contrast between stock market gains and real economic pain
- 15:38 — Chomsky interview begins
- 16:12 — Chomsky on Biden’s prospects and the role of activism
- 17:17 — Chomsky on Trump’s continuing influence and the roots of American discontent
- 21:20 — Chomsky draws historical parallels with the 1930s
- 23:14 — Discussion of third-party prospects and the need for a revived labor movement
- 24:06 — Reframing “the left” and social democracy in the U.S. context
- 26:08 — The relevance (and stigma) of Marxist and anarchist traditions in modern America
- 27:12 — The American heritage of worker control and radical movements
Summary & Takeaways
This episode provides a sober yet hopeful analysis of America’s crossroads as the Biden administration takes charge. Wolff and Chomsky agree that real progress—economic or political—will not come from above, but must be wrested through organized, popular struggle. Drawing from international case studies and American history, the discussion underscores the need for mass mobilization to counter both rising inequality and the enduring danger of right-wing populism. The enduring power of radical traditions, even if masked by pragmatism or different labels, offers hope for meaningful transformation—provided movements from below can harness them.