Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

Episode: Pandemic Capitalism: A View from Asia
Date: July 30, 2020
Guest: Professor Jomo Kwame Sundaram

Overview

This episode of Economic Update examines the multifaceted impact of COVID-19 on the global economy, with a unique focus on East and Southeast Asia. Host Richard D. Wolff explores how responses to the pandemic have differed regionally, discusses systemic failings of U.S. capitalism exposed by the crisis, and engages with guest economist Jomo Kwame Sundaram for a comparative analysis of "pandemic capitalism" between Asia and the West. The show also addresses rising U.S.-China tensions, the ascendance of finance capital, and concerns about the stability and future of the global capitalist system.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Reflections on Justice and Wealth (00:10 – 05:00)

• AOC’s Stand Against Misogyny:
  Wolff opens with praise for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s speech against gender-based insults in Congress, framing it as a powerful, long-overdue rebuke against entrenched sexism.
  • "Bravo to her and bravo to all of those who I'm sure were moved by her eloquence..." (00:32, Wolff)
• Jeff Bezos and Wealth Redistribution:
  Suggests redirecting a portion of Bezos’ fortune ($20B) to global causes, specifically vaccine research, contrasting collective good versus private accumulation.
  • "Compare leaving the 20 billion in Mr. Bezos's bank account... versus my suggestion... The first option is good for him and bad for the rest of the world." (02:10, Wolff)

2. The "Quiet Fleecing" of Pensioners (05:01 – 10:07)

• Corruption in Pension Fund Management:
  Wolff details a lawsuit in Kentucky against Blackstone Group and KKR, alleging self-serving, poor investment decisions and hidden personal enrichment.
  • Highlights the link between political donations and the awarding of lucrative contracts.
    • "It's always good to give money if you're looking for contracts, isn't it?" (08:34, Wolff)
  • Exposes conflicts of interest—companies reimbursed for using their executives’ personal jets, paid from pension funds.

3. Systemic Failures Exposed by the Pandemic (10:08 – 15:30)

• Insurance Companies and “Golden Rule” Capitalism:
  Pandemic-related business insurance claims are systematically denied, exposing a system where resources enable power.
  • "Those who have the gold get to rule.” (12:29, Wolff)
• Contrasting U.S. and Canadian COVID Responses:
  A metaphor of two Niagara Falls tourist boats illustrates different levels of virus control.
  • U.S. boat: 50% full; Canadian: 15% full.
  • U.S. infection rate four times higher than Canada.
  • "No wonder they won't let us in." (13:38, Wolff)
• Retail Collapse and “Stakeholders”:
  Retail bankruptcies (e.g., Ann Taylor, Dressbarn, J.C. Penney, Brooks Brothers) are linked to broader economic carnage, loss of jobs, and decreased municipal resources.
  • Companies claim to “protect stakeholders” but fire workers and devastate communities.
  • "They're not. They're firing all those people... but they're not being taken care of." (14:32, Wolff)
• Stark Wealth Gaps in America:
  Bezos’ wealth increases by $25B during the pandemic, while local governments fail to house the homeless.
  • “$25 billion for Mr. Bezos, but not enough for 50 homeless people. Welcome to America, 2020.” (15:19, Wolff)

Pandemic Capitalism: An Asian Perspective (Guest Interview)

4. Comparative COVID Responses in East and Southeast Asia (15:31 – 19:01)

• Governments Mobilized Early and Collectively:
  Professor Jomo highlights vigorous, early interventions in East and Southeast Asia (Vietnam, Laos, Kerala in India), enabling containment of COVID-19 without debilitating lockdowns.

  • “The responses by various governments... have been quite varied, but in East Asia particularly... have basically succeeded in containing contagion... without resorting to stay-in-shelter lockdown measures...” (15:54, Sundaram)
  • Whole government and “whole of society” efforts akin to wartime mobilization, integrating public health, economic, and social responses.
  • Even poorer regions (Kerala, Vietnam) achieved effective containment.

• Contrast with Western Individualism:
  U.S. and U.K. responses are critiqued as fragmented and inadequate.

  • “Countries... celebrating the so-called private economic system... proved to be very poor at that kind of mobilization.” (19:01, Wolff)

5. U.S.-China Tensions and Regional Consequences (20:18 – 24:02)

• Origins and Escalation of Hostility:
  Sundaram traces U.S. hostility to China back to Obama’s “pivot to Asia”; under Trump, this escalates with trade wars and efforts to "externalize" domestic failures.
  • “The disruption... has begun much earlier... In fact, I would date it to the Obama administration when there was a so-called pivot to Asia." (20:18, Sundaram)
  • Regional supply chains threatened, creating broad economic uncertainty for East and Southeast Asia.
• Militarization Fears:
  Potential for a limited U.S.-China military conflict, most likely in Southeast Asia, drawing historical parallels (Falklands War, Iraq War) to leaders using international crises for political gain.
  • "Those of us in Southeast Asia see such a military conflict as most likely to begin in Southeast Asia." (22:53, Sundaram)
  • Nuclear risk on China-India or China-Pakistan borders makes South China Sea scenarios more probable.

6. The Durability of Global Capitalism (24:02 – 27:30)

• Multiple, Overlapping Crises:
  Wolff summarizes current burdens: pandemic, economic depression, and superpower rivalry.
  • "You are loading up the problems of a global capitalism...” (24:02, Wolff)
• Can the System Survive?
  Sundaram responds:
  • The global capitalist system is likely to survive because there's no immediate alternative.
  • Power will accrue to the most dominant forces—primarily finance capital—while productive capital is eclipsed.
  • “The system will survive precisely because there is no alternative available.” (25:10, Sundaram)
  • Financialization (rise of Wall Street/City of London) supplants “productive capitalism.”
  • Emerging forms of capitalism in China and elsewhere may serve different needs, but the future shape is uncertain.
  • “...the ascendance of finance capital over more productive capitalism... I think is the fundamental problem we face in many parts of the world today.” (26:43, Sundaram)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Systemic Corruption:
  “Their pension fund managing companies... use the planes to fly their pension managers back and forth... and every time they do, Blackstone pays its own chairman's airplane bills and gets reimbursed... out of the pension funds set aside by the teachers and firefighters and clerks who work for Kentucky, ripping off the average person quietly and steadily. It's the American way."
  — Richard D. Wolff (09:37)

• On Social Mobilization and Success:
  “Very importantly, whole of society mobilization has been important. This is important for us to recognize because in many ways we have a whole of society mobilization comparable, for example, to wartime efforts when society is mobilized to deal with the crisis.”
  — Jomo Kwame Sundaram (17:44)

• On the Future of Capitalism:
  “My own expectation and fear is that the system will survive precisely because there is no alternative available. ...So what we will probably have... is survival of the most powerful elements which can emerge out of this crisis.”
  — Jomo Kwame Sundaram (25:10)

Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:10 – Opening reflections, AOC and Jeff Bezos
• 05:01 – “Quiet Fleecing of the American People”: Kentucky pension fund scandal
• 10:08 – Systemic rip-offs: insurance and wealth inequality
• 13:30 – U.S. vs. Canadian COVID responses, Niagara Falls metaphor
• 14:35 – Retail bankruptcies, “stakeholders,” and inequality
• 15:31 – Interview with Professor Jomo Kwame Sundaram begins
• 15:54 – Comparative government responses to COVID-19 in Asia
• 20:18 – U.S.-China hostility and regional impacts
• 24:02 – Multiple global crises and the resilience of capitalism
• 27:30 – Closing thoughts and recommendations

Tone & Language

Wolff maintains a critical, passionate, and at times sarcastic tone, using vivid examples and direct language to highlight economic injustices. Sundaram is analytical and cautious, offering a broad, comparative perspective and emphasizing structural forces over personalities or parties.

Summary

This episode juxtaposes the failures and inequities of Western capitalism—exacerbated by the pandemic—with effective, collectivist responses observed in parts of Asia. The conversation reveals how entrenched wealth, political patronage, and the ascendancy of finance are grinding away at societal resilience, even as new models of capitalism and global alignments may be emerging. Despite piling crises, both host and guest agree the current system is likely to remain, for lack of a clear, organized alternative. The episode closes with an invitation to seek alternative viewpoints and more nuanced critiques of global capitalism.