Podcast Summary: Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

Episode: Pope Questions Capitalism
Date: July 14, 2015
Host: Richard D. Wolff
Guest: Bob Hennelly

Episode Overview

In this episode, economist Richard D. Wolff dives into Pope Francis’ landmark encyclical on the environment—a document that directly questions the moral legitimacy of capitalism’s treatment of the planet. Wolff is joined by journalist Bob Hennelly to discuss the wider implications of the Pope’s critique, placing it at the crossroads of economics, politics, religion, and human responsibility. The episode ties this conversation to contemporary economic updates, offering a critical lens on systemic issues like undemocratic institutional practices, the lack of paid leave in the US, global austerity movements, and the exploitation of young workers through unpaid internships.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Economic Updates and Institutional Critique (00:02–27:27)

Sweet Briar College Saved by Stakeholders (00:02–05:28)

• Wolff cheers the successful pushback against the undemocratic closure of Sweet Briar College.
• The alumnae, faculty, and students challenged a decision made by the board—demonstrating the necessity for broader stakeholder involvement in major institutional decisions.
  • “There is no justification, especially in a country that calls itself democratic, to have a tiny group of people unresponsive to, unaccountable to all of those affected by the decision.” (04:20, Wolff)

The Scandal of Paid Leave in the U.S. (05:29–12:18)

• The U.S. is uniquely lagging among industrialized countries, providing no federal paid family or sick leave.
• Some states and cities are moving forward with local ordinances, but 11 states passed laws blocking cities from enacting their own paid leave policies.
• Stark statistics highlight economic disparity:
  • “If you’re in the bottom 25% of the workforce in terms of your salary, then two thirds of you get no sick leave.” (10:00, Wolff)
  • “87% of workers and 95% of those in the bottom quarter get no family leave.” (11:10, Wolff)

Santa Cruz vs Big Banks: An Example for Municipal Ethics (12:18–14:20)

• Santa Cruz decides not to do business with banks demonstrated to have engaged in illegal or unethical behavior—a model for local government response to corporate misconduct.

Foreign Ownership and Political Irony in NYC Hospitality (14:21–16:20)

• U.S. diplomatic delegations are avoiding the Waldorf Astoria (now Chinese-owned), questioning American exceptionalism when even luxury stays are controlled by foreign capital.

Austerity and Popular Resistance in the UK (16:21–19:00)

• Over 100,000 demonstrate in London against austerity and NHS cuts.
• Jeremy Corbyn emerges as an anti-austerity Labour leader, paralleling Bernie Sanders’ rise in the U.S.
  • “I want to take my hat off to people that are mobilizing against the kind of policies that... go by the name of austerity and hopefully will inspire Americans and many others to do likewise.” (18:40, Wolff)

Young Workers Exploited: The “Traineeship” System (19:00–22:30)

• U.K. youth must work up to six months unpaid (“traineeships”) for job history—echoed in the U.S. with Clinton campaign internships.
  • “The money is there, the wealth is there, but the pressure on the middle and the bottom to work for nothing is part of how your capitalism works.” (22:20, Wolff)

The Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP): Corporate Victory (22:30–26:45)

• President Obama’s administration pushes through fast-track trade authority, with little democratic oversight, benefiting favored corporations at the expense of labor and environmental interests.
  • “TPP shows us if we needed the evidence that we live in the best government money can buy.” (25:30, Wolff)

2. Feature Segment: The Pope Challenges Capitalism (27:50–52:25)

The Core Message of the Encyclical (27:50–29:50)

• Pope Francis, drawing on his background as a chemist, exposes the unpriced “externalities” of capitalism—its destruction of nature and human life ignored in market logic.
  • “He’s looking at all the things... never discussed... emissions and pollution that result... to millions of premature deaths... never factored in to the cost benefit analysis.” (28:11, Hennelly)

Debt, Inequality, and Ecological Catastrophe (29:00–34:44)

• The encyclical frames debt as a tool for rich countries to control the poor, while environmental and human costs are dumped on the world’s most vulnerable.
  • “Whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a dangerous, deified market, which becomes the only rule.” (29:30, Hennelly quoting the Pope)
• The West, having industrialized under capitalism, disproportionately polluted the planet, leaving others to suffer the consequences.

Water as Commodity & Global Limits (34:44–35:17)

• Pope Francis highlights the commodification of water and basic needs, warning how basic resources are now subject to market forces that exclude the poor.

Market Ideology vs. The Crisis Created by Markets (35:17–37:34)

• The Pope refutes the argument that markets can fix what markets have broken. Reliance on GDP is condemned as an inadequate measure of real human wellbeing.
  • “If something has helped bring you to a situation you don’t want to be in, the solution isn’t to continue.” (36:34, Wolff)

Religious (and Institutional) Evolution (37:34–40:02)

• The encyclical sits within a larger context: the Catholic Church facing scandal, competition in Latin America, and a need to remain relevant.
  • “This is an extraordinary transformation in human consciousness, an evolution of the church.” (39:15, Hennelly)

Case Study: Exxon, New Jersey, and Political Corruption (40:02–44:33)

• The Christie-Exxon settlement over toxic pollution grossly undervalued environmental justice, failing the vulnerable and bypassing the needed restoration.
  • “Governor Christie passed up an opportunity to redeem the mistakes of over 100 years... continues to put in harm’s way... Catholic, immigrant, Latino folk... living in areas where the rent is cheap.” (42:50, Hennelly)
• Ties to the encyclical’s focus on corporate irresponsibility and the disproportionate suffering of the marginalized.

How Will Catholics Respond? (44:33–47:11)

• Political leaders (e.g., Jeb Bush) push back, suggesting the Pope “stick to saving souls.” The real impact depends on whether lay Catholics and parishes transform encyclical principles into action.
  • “This is a classic thing that’s gone on with the church... secular leaders always saying, you know what, stick with the afterlife... They want to use religion as a form of social control.” (45:35, Hennelly)

Worker-Owned Co-ops as Systemic Solution (47:11–49:12)

• Wolff proposes democratic workplaces—worker co-ops—as an institutional remedy, aligning economic decisions with community and ecological priorities.
  • “If a broader base of people… were able to make these decisions, that would help them institutionalize—incorporate—take seriously what this Pope has said, because it would be in their interest to do so.” (49:12, Wolff)

Caution Against “Greenwashing” (49:12–50:20)

• The Pope warns about corporations that claim ecological concern while conducting business-as-usual, demanding genuine transformation.

The Pope’s Broad Campaign & Other Faiths (50:20–52:25)

• The encyclical may herald a broader campaign—Pope Francis also denounces the arms industry and war as incompatible with Christian values.
  • “A religious leader… asking the question, is it [capitalism] consistent or compatible with our deepest held human commitments to one another? And the conclusion he reaches is—not so much.” (52:03, Wolff)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On capitalism and decision-making:
  “That’s what democracy means. And the people, the alumna, especially of Sweet Briar College, get my congratulations and thanks for having made a wonderful example of people deciding to say no when undemocratic decisions go against what the majority of the people need and want.” (04:00, Wolff)

• On American exceptionalism and paid leave:
  “We’re a country in which we claim that we are unique and exceptional because of our commitment to family values. You can’t have it both ways unless you are a liar.” (11:36, Wolff)

• On the Pope’s critique:
  “He’s kind of being, if you will, a whistleblower… as a result, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a dangerous deified market, which becomes the only rule.” (28:41–29:30, Hennelly)

• On water commodification:
  “Even though [water] is essential for human life, it’s become commodified… impoverishing the people but degrading the ability of their immediate ecology to sustain them—life itself.” (34:50, Hennelly)

• On metrics of economic success:
  “…they call into question the very yardsticks we use to judge our success… the all holy GDP. And they say that that totally fails to capture the state of humanity and… well-being.” (36:34, Hennelly)

• On lay Catholic response:
  “The Pope is only going to be as good as the response of the people he’s… trying to open up in conversation. Which by the way goes beyond the Catholic Church.” (46:45, Hennelly)

• On war and the environment:
  “Can you imagine if President Obama had to do an environmental impact statement for every drone strike?” (52:25, Hennelly)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:02] Institutional updates, Sweet Briar College and democracy in decision-making
• [05:29] U.S. lack of paid leave, statistics, and policy contrasts nationwide
• [12:18] Santa Cruz decision against banking corruption
• [14:21] Foreign ownership of prominent NYC hotels
• [16:21] Anti-austerity protests and Labour leadership in the UK
• [19:00] Unpaid “traineeships” in the UK and the U.S. internship system
• [22:30] The TPP/Fast Track—democracy and plutocracy
• [27:50] Introduction to Pope Francis’ encyclical (with guest Bob Hennelly)
• [28:11] The criticism of externalities in global capitalism
• [33:10] Historic inequality and pollution under capitalism
• [34:44] Commodification of water and resource struggles globally
• [35:17] Market solutions myth, the failure of GDP as a human measure
• [37:34] The Catholic church’s institutional evolution and relevance
• [40:02] The Exxon–New Jersey settlement as environmental injustice
• [44:33] Responses within the U.S. Catholic community and challenges to real action
• [47:11] The case for worker democracy and co-operatives
• [49:12] The danger of greenwashing; the need for deep change
• [50:20] The Pope’s challenge to other faiths and the link to peace/war critique
• [52:03] The episode draws to a close with reflections on the Pope’s moral challenge to capitalism

Conclusion

This episode delivers a critical, timely investigation of why the Pope’s environmental encyclical goes far beyond “church matters,” directly challenging the ethical and practical sustainability of global capitalism. Wolff and Hennelly connect the papal document with daily economic injustices—from wage theft and unpaid work to corporate environmental destruction—suggesting that real solutions require democratizing the economy itself. Listeners are left with a call to action: to question received wisdom, organize for systemic change, and recognize that true morality and sustainability are inseparable from economic justice.