Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

[S9 E45] Teaching Economics: A Revolutionary Approach

Date: November 21, 2019
Host: Richard D. Wolff, Democracy at Work
Guest: Dr. Amy S. Cleveland Kramer

Episode Overview

In this episode, Richard D. Wolff explores the revolutionary possibilities for teaching economics in today’s highly polarized society. He highlights the need for a pluralistic and solution-focused approach to economic education, one that breaks free from traditional ideological silos. The second half features an in-depth conversation with Dr. Amy S. Cleveland Kramer about "Voices on the Economy" (VOTE), a free educational initiative that brings together conservative, liberal, and radical perspectives for collaborative problem-solving.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Seattle’s Political Shift: The Sawant-Amazon Showdown

[00:10 - 06:05]

• Wolff opens by discussing the re-election of Kshama Sawant to Seattle’s City Council.

  • Sawant, a self-described socialist and Marxist, has been outspoken about the negative impacts of Amazon’s dominance in Seattle.
    • “She discovered that the openness of American people to socialist thinking and socialist alternatives was much stronger than the media, academia and Republican and Democratic politicians like to admit.” — Richard D. Wolff [02:19]
  • Amazon contributed $1 million to Sawant’s political opponents.
    • Despite this “David and Goliath” battle, Amazon's backed candidates lost.
  • Key takeaway: Recent history disproves the idea that socialist critique is a political death sentence in the US.

  Notable Quote:
  “Don’t think that if you’re critical of capitalism, if you’re interested in a socialist alternative, that you are necessarily foredoomed to lose in the political battles of the United States. Recent history, including Kshama Sawant’s race, proves the opposite.” — Wolff [06:01]

2. Obesity in America: An Economic Analysis

[06:06 - 13:40]

• The US now leads the world in obesity per WHO and CDC stats.

  • 1990: 15% of adults obese; 2015-16: nearly 40%.
  • Obesity’s costs (medical and indirect) are staggering: $147 billion annually.

• Wolff frames obesity as an outcome of profit-driven interests:

  • Fast food: High calorie, low nutrition, heavily marketed — mostly to low and middle-income groups.
  • Physical inactivity compounds the crisis.
  • Even the anti-obesity industry is profit-motivated, generating $72 billion in revenue.

• Public health action is stymied by the economic clout of industry.

  Notable Quote:
  “My guess would be there’s no willingness to confront the profit-making, fast food, low quality industry whose profits protect it from what should be done in the interests of public health.” — Wolff [13:36]

3. Debating Libertarians: Body Counts & the Role of Government

[13:41 - 16:21]

• Wolff recalls a debate at the SohO Forum (a libertarian venue).

  • His opponent argued socialism’s “body count” proved its failure.
  • Wolff counters: Capitalism has a bloodier record via wars, colonialism, imperialism, and the slave trade.
  • Criticizes the “body count” approach as a bizarre, unproductive way to debate economic systems.

• Libertarian distrust of government:

  • Wolff notes the inconsistency: When crises like the Great Depression or 2008 crash hit, even business turns to government for rescue.
  • Challenges the dogma that the government is “inherently bad.”

  Notable Exchange:
  “Is the government bad by definition? Are we, like, talking in religion where God is good and the devil is bad...?” — Wolff [14:54]

4. Interview: Dr. Amy S. Cleveland Kramer & The VOTE Project

[16:22 - 28:31]

Introduction to VOTE

• Kramer is a professor of economics at Pima Community College. Together with journalist Laura Markowitz, she founded "Voices on the Economy" (VOTE).

• Purpose: Create an open-minded, balanced exploration of conservative, liberal, and radical economics.

  Kramer on VOTE’s Mission:
  “Its goal is to spark new ideas. Initially, we teach people from all walks of life to hear the great economic thinkers of our past and how they’re echoed in today’s debates. Then... we line up the conservative, liberal, and radical perspectives side by side in a completely unbiased way.” — Kramer [16:46]

Methodology & Approach

• VOTE uses role plays and activities for students to become “fluent” in each economic viewpoint.

• Emphasizes “respectful listening, passionate advocacy, and intelligent debate.”

• Seeks to rebuild discourse culture and break out of ideological “echo chambers.”

  Memorable Saw:
  “It’s kind of even funny that it’s revolutionary. It seems like, isn’t that how society should be? But unfortunately, that’s just not where we are.” — Kramer [18:41]

Reception and Impact

• Over 4,200 unique downloads since VOTE launched, despite minimal marketing.

• Educators from 18 countries, K-12, universities, prisons, and senior centers have adopted the materials.

• VOTE is empowering for those marginalized in mainstream economics.

  Kramer’s Reflection:
  “Some people say, isn’t this stuff sort of better left to the experts? ... But these are things we’re asking people to vote on every day. How do we solve hunger? How do we solve homelessness? ... It is only right that everybody knows what’s on deck for their choices.” — Kramer [23:07]

Silo-Busting & “Golden Moments”

• VOTE assigns participants various economic viewpoints on different issues, encouraging empathy and understanding.

• Through scenario-driven discussions, participants reach “golden moments” where common goals surface and new ideas emerge.

  Kramer explains:
  “Our golden moment is this moment where people realize ... all perspectives want the same things. We just have really different ways of getting there. And it’s in that golden moment that the foundation is set, that the seed is planted for new ideas to emerge.” — Kramer [25:16]

Relevance in Today’s America

• Pluralistic approaches are critical in US society’s current climate — new voices (especially socialists and radicals) are finding a place at the table.
• True progress requires inclusion of all strands of economic thought:
  • “Without Marx’s contribution, we cannot move forward. We’re in danger of going, in fact, going backwards...” — Kramer [27:40]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Socialist Ideas in US Politics:
  “Recent history, including Kshama Sawant's race, proves the opposite.” — Wolff [06:01]
• On Economic “Body Count” Arguments:
  “Killing is not good anywhere. But the idea that you have found a flaw in the capitalism socialism debate is bizarre.” — Wolff [14:46]
• On VOTE's Philosophy:
  “It’s through a culture building a new culture of respectful listening, passionate advocacy, and intelligent debate. That’s how we do it.” — Kramer [18:30]
• On Economic Pluralism as Needed for Democracy:
  “It is only right that everybody knows what’s on deck for their choices.” — Kramer [23:26]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:10] — Introduction & Seattle/Amazon/Sawant election
• [06:06] — The obesity epidemic: data, costs, root causes
• [13:41] — Debating libertarian critiques; capitalism, socialism, and “body count” arguments
• [16:22] — Interview with Dr. Amy S. Cleveland Kramer begins
• [22:27] — Reception and global reach of VOTE project
• [24:16] — Dealing with silos, opposition, and fostering “golden moments”
• [27:29] — The necessity of pluralism and Marx’s relevance today

Conclusion

This episode offers a compelling critique of economic orthodoxy, highlighting the persistence and resurgence of socialist perspectives in current US political life (as in Seattle’s city council races) and in the expanding field of economic education. Dr. Amy S. Cleveland Kramer presents “Voices on the Economy” as a revolutionary program to bridge ideological divides, cultivate open-minded debate, and generate creative solutions through pluralism and respectful engagement.

For more information:

• Visit: voicesontheeconomy.org
• Book referenced: Understanding Marxism (by Richard D. Wolff)