Richard Wolff (9:10)

Why would Israel already engaged in a, in a process in Gaza that is damaging Israel's reputation, its chances for survival into the indefinite future as it becomes, you know, the pariah nation it already is. Why would they start a second war? And I'm not even asking about the impact on Israeli society and economy that what they're doing in Gaza already has cost them. This is going to distort their economic and social life. Why would they do this?

Chris Hedges (9:56)

I mean, I think hubris. You have seen Israel decapitate Hezbollah. You have seen Israel seize huge sections of Syria. With the overthrow of the Bashar Al Assad regime. They're virtually up to the gates of Damascus. You have seen this live streamed genocide and the message to Israel, which by the way is of course blocked. Not just humanitarian aid, but food. Since March 2, half a million of the some 2 million Palestinians in Gaza are now on the brink of starvation and nobody intervenes. So I think it's, they feel they can do whatever they want. They're not wrong about that. And the United States will continue to funnel weapons to them, continue to back them, whatever. And, you know, preemptive war, which is what Israel essentially done as a war crime, just as we did in Iraq. Iran did not pose a threat to Israel. Did not, Was not, you know, hostile in the sense of engaging in hostilities towards active hostilities that you could call a war towards Israel. But I think it's hubris. I think they, they may have overstepped, of course, they may have gone too far. But I think that they, the message they have gotten, especially out of Washington, from both administrations as well as Europe, Germany, I mean, the Germans have been defending the strikes on, on Iran, the uk. I mean, they all, they've all backed this genocide for 20 months. And it doesn't matter how horrific the images are, there's no impediment to the weapons supplies. I mean, Israel ran out of weapons stocks, it depleted its stocks a long time ago. I think about 68, 70% of its munitions now come from the United States. So. But we show, you know, no indication, I mean, we just vetoed that ceasefire resolution in the un. We show no indication of backing down. So Israel feels that it can do whatever it wants in the region. I think in the short term, that's probably correct. In the long term, I'm not so sure.

Richard Wolff (12:05)

What about the longer term? Tell me your judgment is what I'm interested in. Your judgment as to why, given the 90 million versus whatever the population number you want to use, 7 to 10 million Israeli non Arab Israelis, given the longer term, given that they're surrounded by Muslim, Arab. I understand Persians and Arabs are not the same and all of that, but why would the longer term absurdity of this tiny country, whatever the United States or Europe does, the ability of the United States and Europe in Ukraine has been demonstrated not to do what it is they thought they could do. Why is that lesson not learned here?

Chris Hedges (13:00)

I think in the short term, Israel feels pretty confident. I think Israel's plan in the long term is clearly to draw the United States into a conflict. I think there's a fallacy that somehow they can break Iran solely through aerial assaults. At what point, if the United States is drawn into a conflict, does that become a ground war? Given the size of Iran, you probably need at least a million troops. I don't think in the end an invasion or occupation of Iran would go any better than it did in Afghanistan or Iraq. But I think Israel is banking. I mean, the thing about Israel is that it essentially is sustaining permanent war to steal a line from Trotsky. But it can't do it alone. It needs, I mean, in the last kind of barrage of missiles, this was after the strike in April on the Iranian embassy in Damascus, they needed the US to intercept those missiles coming in. And they are going to very quickly deplete their stocks and they're going to need new stocks from the United States. And but it takes a while to produce this stuff. So I think in the long term, Israel is counting on the fact that it can draw the United States in. It has a strong. Of course, the Israel lobby owns Congress, and it's wedded with the neoconservatives who orchestrated the disasters in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Ukraine and everywhere else. And I think they're banking, they're banking on that, that they can suck Trump into this conflict. I think over the long term, if they don't, they potentially, I mean, I learned a long time ago not to predict the future, but potentially, if Iran can continue and we just don't know what its missile stocks are, but if it continue to fire off salvos of 100, 200 missiles at a time, ballistic missiles, and if Israel's air defense system, which is inevitable, becomes increasingly degraded, then and again, as we spoke, Israel is a small country, then I think there could be real damage inflicted on Israel. But I think the goal is clearly now to entice the United States into a war.

Richard Wolff (15:29)

We've come to the end of the first half of the show, so give us a moment to break and we'll be right back. Before we jump into the second half of today's show, I wanted to thank you for your very generous response to our fundraising efforts this year and in particular in the last couple of months. And in part responding to that, we are extending the availability of our limited edition, linen covered hardcover version of Understanding Capitalism, the book I wrote and that we have been making available now for quite a while. If you are interested, I will be signing copies of that hardcover and they will be available to you as they have been over the last few weeks. Just simply send on email to us@infodemocracyatwork.info and put in the subject line limited edition. We will send you all the information you need to order and receive your copy, signed copy of Understanding Capitalism in its hardback. And thank you again for your kind attention to the fundraising dimension of what we do. Mr. Zelensky, in my judgment, and please, of course correct me If I'm wrong, Mr. Zelensky had had no hope either for a long time without drawing the United States in much further than the United States seemed willing to go. And that didn't work. And that doesn't worry the Israelis, as far as you can tell?

Chris Hedges (17:24)

Well, the Ukrainians don't have a lobby as powerful, anywhere near as powerful as the Israel lobby. So you know, Israel, for instance, again with these neoconservatives, made a huge push for the United States to invade Iraq under the Bush administration, the second Bush administration. Although Iraq obviously had nothing to do with 9 11. It wasn't a threat. I was in the Middle east at the time, wasn't a threat to its neighbors or much less to us in the same way that Iran is not threatening its neighbors or threatening us. So that's the difference that the power of the Israel lobby and the lust. I mean, let's be clear that these neoconservatives have just orchestrated debacle after debacle, fiasco after fiasco. And they're not all these generals and the CIA and these celebrity pundits that cheerlead war. And these neoconservatives and the Zionists, they're not about to take credit for the debacles. They're going to blame it. And who do they blame it on in Iran? In fact, what they did by destroying Iraq as a unified country, which is what they did over 20 years of occupation, is they destroyed the balance in the Middle east between a powerful Iraq and a powerful Iran. And they made Iran ascendant. In fact, the government in Baghdad is Shiite dominated the and closely allied with Iran, completely upending the very purpose that we went into Iran. I mean, remember when they went in, they spread this fantasy that they would implant democracy in Baghdad and it would emanate outwards across the Middle east, especially to Tehran. And the goal was always to bring down Tehran. Well, that's especially true now because they've demonized Iran for all of their own failures and they have this kind of fantasy that somehow if they can take the Iranian regime out, they can. Let's be clear. These people are historically, linguistically, culturally illiterate. They don't know anything about the Middle east and that's the game they're playing. But these people live in a non reality based belief system just to believe that they were going to go into Iraq and be greeted as liberators and the oil revenues would pay for the reconstruction and you would build a western style democracy In Iraq, all of this was a utopian dream. If we want to quote Thomas More and the way he used it literally has no place, it doesn't exist on the reality based map. And these are the same people that are pushing a war with Iran, which I think ultimately over the long term will be catastrophic not only for the United States, but if they get involved, but for Israel.

Richard Wolff (20:15)

I know this is asking you to predict the future and I could not agree with you more that that's a fool's activity. I'm going to ask anyway, what's your gut about the likelihood that a Trump administration will be drawn in both because of the pro Israel lobby here and the pressure from, from this evolution, et cetera? What's your sense? What's just your feeling? I know nobody can predict.

Chris Hedges (20:47)

Yeah, I mean, it's hard because I'm not speaking to people within the Trump administration to get a sense of where they're at. Clearly, if Iran carried out a strike, we have all sorts of military bases in Oman and Doha and everywhere else in place. And Saudi Arabia, if strikes were carried out against U.S. military personnel, U.S. bases or U.S. ships in the Strait of Hormuz, then I think that would be a gift to Israel and Trump would be hard pressed probably not to halt this stampede towards active involvement in the war. There's obviously tacit involvement in terms of intelligence, probably in terms of supplies, you know, service to air, missiles and this kind of stuff. So that, that would. And my suspicion is that the Iranians won't do that. Let's be clear, Iran doesn't want a war. Iran is long avoided. Israel's baiting and provocation into a conflict. Even the last time it sent missiles, they announced them in advance. It was kind of all choreographed. I don't think there were any Israelis killed. Maybe there was one Israeli killed or wounded, but you know, the numbers were not like now. So that would probably, if an event like that happened, then I think Trump would probably be willing. But I sense, I mean, Trump keeps talking about negotiations. I don't think the Iranians are, especially since we just assassinated some of their negotiators or Israel did. It does seem that he's reticent. That's my reading of it, you know, but Trump is so mercurial and so impulsive and what he says one day denies the next. He's a very hard person to read. He probably can't read himself. So I guess the red line is if US installations are hit, my guess is that the Iranians are not going to do it because they've got enough on their hands with the Israelis.

Richard Wolff (22:56)

All right, let me turn now to Gaza. Tell me what your sense is of an end game there, if there is one, and how these events will shape any change, if any, in what Israel seems to want to do there.

Chris Hedges (23:15)

Well, the war with Iran or the conflict with Iran will clearly accelerate the genocide in Gaza. I think this is the last chapter of the genocide. Israel has no intention of lifting the blockade, which includes food. People are starving, they are rushing and they've very cynically set up this, you know, Gaza Aid foundation in the south. Nobody argues that there's anywhere enough food. I think there's only four feeding hubs. I'm not sure even they're operable. Every day they're firing on desperate crowds, killing people, you know, a few dozen people a day. And what they're doing is using those food hubs, which are all in the south, along the nine mile border between Gaza and Egypt, around Rafah or this border city, Rafah, to entice people down to the south. And I wouldn't be surprised if at a certain point the Israelis facilitate a breach in the fence because there are parts of that border that are just fence and despite deep Egyptian objections, allow Palestinians to essentially stampede into the northern Sinai. I mean, it may end some other way, I don't know, but that I think we're now seeing the last few weeks of the genocide and I think Israel is thrilled that the focus is on Iran and the Iran Israel conflict because it gives them a free hand. They just got Internet so they can't even get images out of Gaza. They have no intention of lifting the food blockade. Starvation works. I mean, there's just nothing left. I mean, there's no, by the way, there's no clean water. 90% of Gazans are sleeping amid rubble or in the open air in improvised tents. The disease is rampant. Respiratory diseases, scabies, of course, all the diseases, hepatitis that comes with drinking unclean water. The hospitals are gone. The fuel supplies are running out. So the emergency vehicles, I think they have 53ambulances. Less than half are working because they can't get fuel. So Israel will accelerate this process while the world isn't focused on it and seeks to essentially empty Gaza and resettle it with Jewish colonists. There have already been conferences in Israel attempting to recruit Israelis to be colonists, especially northern Gaza. And that's my fear. I mean, the question is where the Palestinians are going to go. I'm not sure even Israel probably could answer that question right now. But that they that this is the final drive to push them out and then we will see Israel turn on the West Bank. 40,000 Palestinians have already been driven from their homes since October 7th. Since the October 7th attacks, Israel has seized huge areas of land and they've now announced a whole blockade of the west bank itself.

Richard Wolff (26:41)

Any opposition inside Israel that you know of that has existed all the way through, how is it reacting to all of this?

Chris Hedges (26:51)

Well, there's heavy opposition in Netanyahu, but from opinion polls there's not much opposition to the genocide. And I think, you know, the fantasy is somehow replacing Netanyahu with someone else, you know, in getting rid of these rabid right wing fanatics like Ben GVIR and Smotrich and others. It may give it a more palatable face to the Israeli government, but I don't think that that will in any way disrupt Israeli policy towards the Palestinians, which has very, very broad support.

Richard Wolff (27:29)

And how do you account for that?

Chris Hedges (27:31)

Well, the trauma of October 7th and then also Israel. I mean, Elon Pappe wrote a very good article about this a few years ago. Israeli Jews are just indoctrinated with this kind of demonization of Arabs or Palestinians from, you know, grade school on and this mantra of, you know, the whole world wants to kill us if we don't kill them first. But that's been all transferred in particular towards Arabs and towards Palestinians and then by severing very few. Used to be, when I lived in Israel, large numbers of Palestinians, several hundred thousand, both out of Gaza and the west bank, worked in Israel. So at least there was some kind of human contact. Now that's gone after October 7th. I forget the numbers, about 110,000 or something. Palestinians worked in Israel. All the work permits were cut, so there's no contact at all with the Palestinians. And I think there is this belief that we can solve this problem which has been bedeviling Israel for seven decades, by just erasing the Palestinians, by getting rid of them. And I think October 7th exacerbated those feelings which were always there. But the trauma of October 7th, I think plays a large part of it.

Richard Wolff (28:56)

Do you ever hear that the model for all of this is the United States and what it did to its indigenous population?

Chris Hedges (29:04)

Yeah, I mean, I don't know that it's the, it's, it's the classic settler colonial model. So it wouldn't be limited to the United States. It's what the British did in India, it's what the British did in Kenya, it's what the French did in Algeria. Settler colonial Projects are, you know, are very similar in terms of the patterns that they create. So it is, of course, we are a settler colonial project as well. So, yeah, I think there are the differences between our settler colonial project and the Zionist settler colonial project is that we kill the 90% of the indigenous. And when. That's the lesson when you're in Tasmania, where they killed all the Tasmanians or Southern Argentina and the Pampas, or, you know, when you actually obliterate them in a genocide, then they can't offer resistance. The Palestinians were never obliterated. The way we annihilated Native Americans, especially after the attack on the 200 soldiers under Custer's command, where they just. The US government just adopted a policy to either kill them, including starving them, by the way, or denying them sources of food, or putting them in POW camps, which later became named reservations. And so the numbers of Palestinians, both in the diaspora and still on historic Palestine, 2.2, 2.3 million in Gaza, it creates a different kind of scenario for Israel. You know, if they can push them out, if they can dispossess them the way the Turks did, the Armenians, that, that. I think that's the point. So the Armenian Genocide, you had huge numbers of Armenians who were killed, but then large numbers of Armenians that were pushed into the. Over the deserts and Syria and out of the country. So it's a little different, but I think it's. It's tied. It is classic. The classic behavior of any settler colonial state.

Richard Wolff (31:26)

Chris, we've run out of time. I want to thank you enormously for sharing your history, your study, and your acute observations on that situation. And I also want to commend you for the courage you've shown, particularly over the last few years, in being an important voice in the United States, for some sane understanding of what's going on and a willingness to take the sides when you see them needing to be taken. My hat's off to you and my appreciation, and thank you again for sharing your insights with us.

Chris Hedges (32:04)

Thank you, Rick.

Richard Wolff (32:04)

To my audience, I want to close, as I always do, that I look forward to speaking with you again next week.