Episode Overview

Podcast: Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff
Episode: The Three Basic Kinds of Socialism (Repeat)
Date: July 1, 2021
Host: Richard D. Wolff

In this episode, Richard D. Wolff discusses the evolving interest in socialism in the United States and globally, motivated by significant shifts in public opinion. Drawing from recent polling data, Wolff explores the three predominant interpretations of socialism, highlighting their theoretical distinctions, real-world examples, impacts on everyday life, and the ongoing debate among these models. The episode aims to clarify common confusions and empower listeners with a nuanced understanding of what "socialism" means within contemporary political discourse.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Re-examine Socialism? (00:10 – 03:30)

• Wolff references an NBC and Wall Street Journal poll showing 25% of Americans find socialism attractive in candidates—a remarkable shift after decades of anti-socialist rhetoric.
• He sets out to dissect the term "socialism," noting its diversity of meanings and applications worldwide.
  • Quote: “Anybody who tells you that this is socialism is either ignorant or misleading you.” — Richard D. Wolff (02:15)
• Socialism, like capitalism, is not monolithic; different societies use the term to mean different things.

2. Three Major Kinds of Socialism

A. Socialism as Government Regulation and Redistribution (03:30 – 09:55)

• Definition & Features:
  • Government regulates and controls, but does not own, private enterprises.
  • The state intervenes to make capitalism more humane, through regulations (e.g., minimum wage, price controls) and redistribution (taxation, social spending).
• Contemporary examples: Denmark, Norway, Germany, Italy, France.
• U.S. equivalents: Bernie Sanders’ platforms, Jeremy Corbyn in the UK.
• Rationale: To counteract capitalism’s tendency to concentrate wealth and foster inequality, with goals like a livable wage and access to public services.
  • Quote: “Capitalism with a humane face, capitalism with a certain welfare focus.” — Richard D. Wolff (08:50)
• Limitations:
  • Persistent tension as private enterprise seeks to avoid or undo regulation.
  • High potential for wealthy actors to subvert and roll back gains.
  • Market inequities remain fundamentally unaddressed.

B. Socialism as Government Ownership and Central Planning (“Communism”) (09:55 – 15:47)

• Definition & Features:
  • The state directly owns and operates enterprises.
  • Markets are replaced with central planning for distribution of goods and services.
  • No private capital; decisions made in the collective rather than for profit.
• Historical examples: Soviet Union, People's Republic of China, Cuba, Vietnam (at certain points).
• Rationale: Prevents “perpetual war” between regulators and regulated by eliminating private enterprise entirely.
• Impact:
  • Promotes rapid economic growth and reduced inequality.
    • Quote: “The two most spectacular stories of economic growth... is the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the People’s Republic of China. Wow.” — Richard D. Wolff (32:12)
  • Risk of excessive government power concentrating politically, leading to potential loss of civil liberties.
  • Bureaucratic management replaces capitalist power, but decisions are still made by a minority—now government officials.

C. Socialism as Workplace Democracy (15:47 – 23:30)

• Definition & Features:
  • Focus shifts to democratizing the enterprise itself.
  • Workers own and run their workplaces through democratic processes: “one person, one vote.”
  • Less focus on whether ownership is public or private; more on who actually controls enterprise decisions.
• Key concept: “Democracy at work” — bringing democracy to the workplace, not just the political sphere.
• Examples/Models: Worker co-ops, collective labor organizations, and grassroots cooperative initiatives.
• Aims:
  • Redress hierarchical capitalist management.
  • Avoid over-centralization of state power.
  • Create a community-centric culture within enterprises.
  • Quote: “The big issue for us... is the transformation of the workplace, the socialization of the workplace.” — Richard D. Wolff (20:32)
• Challenges:
  • Unknowns about coordinating between different co-ops (market vs. planning).
  • Need for mechanisms to prevent emergence of permanent elites within enterprises.

Real-world Implications for Individuals

Moderate/Democratic Socialism’s Impact on Workers (24:00 – 28:30)

• Workers benefit from both wages and strong public services (healthcare, education, transport).
• Historical accomplishments: National health systems, unemployment compensation, public education expansions.
• These systems are relatively popular and durable in places like Scandinavia.
• Problems:
  • Insecurity: Private ownership means elites can undo social gains.
  • Social tension: Redistribution creates animosity that wouldn’t exist if wealth were distributed evenly from the start.
  • Analogy: Redistributing ice cream cones between children creates conflict that would be absent with initially equal sharing. (28:50)

Communist/Planned-Economy Socialism’s Impact (28:30 – 34:12)

• Highly successful at driving economic growth and eliminating unemployment.
• Tends toward greater equality.
• Risks: Power accumulates with government, substituting one minority (owners) for another (officials).
  • Quote: “In one case, it’s private capitalists, in the other case, it’s government officials calling all the shots. And that is politically dangerous.” — Richard D. Wolff (33:35)
• Potential for political and cultural control by the state.

Workplace Democracy Socialism’s Impact (34:12 – 40:35)

• Everyday work changes: Workers become co-owners, co-decision-makers.
• Workplaces function as communities, with decisions made democratically.
• The potential for profoundly transforming work—ending the “boss-worker” divide.
• Still-unknowns: How enterprises will coordinate with each other, maintain fairness, and prevent entrenched leaderships.
• Quote: “If the idea of socialism really is... to go beyond capitalism, to do better than capitalism, well, then that third one is by far the most transformative for people's lives of the three that are contesting.” — Richard D. Wolff (39:55)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Socialism has been around for 150 years. It has spread all over the world. And the end result, inevitably, is that different people mean different things by that term.” — Richard D. Wolff (01:37)
• On moderate socialism: “We could call it capitalism with a humane face, capitalism with a certain welfare focus, the welfare of all the people.” (08:50)
• On communism: “The government should take over enterprises, literally own and operate the factories, stores, and offices.” (12:31)
• On workplace democracy: “What will really make a difference, what will take us beyond capitalism and be a better way of organizing society, focuses on the enterprise—the workplace.” (19:40)

Key Takeaways

• “Socialism” is not a singular idea—it has at least three major forms, each with distinct philosophies, mechanisms, and outcomes.
• The debate today isn’t simply between capitalism and socialism, but among rival versions of socialism themselves.
• Bringing democracy to the workplace is the most innovative and potentially transformative idea presently advancing within socialist thought.
• Understanding these distinctions is crucial to engaging intelligently in discussions about socialism’s future, both in the U.S. and globally.

Notable Timestamps

• 00:10 — Introduction, recent poll on socialism’s rising appeal.
• 03:30 — First kind: Regulation and redistribution.
• 09:55 — Second kind: Government ownership and planning (“communism”).
• 15:47 — Third kind: Workplace democracy.
• 24:00 — How moderate socialism impacts daily life.
• 28:30 — The experience under communist state socialism.
• 34:12 — What workplace democracy would mean in practice.
• 39:55 — Conclusion: why workplace democracy is most transformative.

This episode provides a powerful, clear breakdown of what socialism means in different contexts, challenging listeners to move beyond caricature and truly grapple with what societal change they want to see and how best to achieve it.