The Workers' Struggle within The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra

Summary

Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff: Episode Summary Episode Title: The Workers' Struggle within The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
Release Date: July 8, 2025

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Overview

In this episode of Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff, host Richard D. Wolff delves into pressing economic and political issues shaping contemporary society. The discussion spans the recent U.S. military actions in Iran, significant developments in New York City's democratic primary, notable resignations within the Democratic National Committee, and the burgeoning economic influence of the BRICS alliance. The latter half features an in-depth interview with members of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, highlighting their ongoing labor struggles and the broader implications for cultural institutions in the United States.

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U.S.-Iran Military Conflict

Richard Wolff opens the episode by examining the United States' unilateral military action against Iran. He critiques the decision to deploy B2 bombers and drop some of the world's largest bombs on Iranian soil, specifically targeting sites suspected of uranium enrichment.

Richard Wolff [00:20]: "We are now living in a society in which we are kept from knowledge of what is really going on and presented instead with carefully choreographed political theater."

Wolff questions the rationale behind these strikes, noting the absence of an ongoing war between the U.S. and Iran and the potential risks associated with nuclear materials.

Charlie Fabian [05:24]: "You're not sure exactly what's down there. Why would you take such a risk?"

The conversation shifts to the Iranian retaliation, where missiles damaged a major American military base in Qatar. Wolff underscores the lack of transparency and the ensuing political theater, leaving the public in the dark about the true motives and consequences of these military maneuvers.

Richard Wolff [07:13]: "We don't know what was at the bottom of the mountains that the United States bombed, and we don't know what was in the base that the Iranians bombed."

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Democratic Mayoral Primary in New York

Transitioning to domestic politics, Wolff highlights the landmark victory of Zoran Mamdani in New York City's Democratic mayoral primary. This win represents a significant shift towards socialist policies within one of America's most influential cities.

Richard Wolff [09:56]: "Mr. Mamdani proving that what Ocasio Cortez in a part of New York City achieved, he can achieve for the whole city."

Wolff draws parallels to past socialist figures like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, emphasizing Mamdani's potential to transform American politics by reintroducing socialist ideals into the mainstream.

Richard Wolff [10:09]: "This is shaking up all of the political establishment, not just the Democrats... a sign that the times are changing in big, powerful ways."

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Union Leaders Resign from the Democratic National Committee

The episode proceeds to discuss the resignations of prominent union leaders from the Democratic National Committee (DNC). Figures such as Randy Weingarten, Lee Saunders, and David Hogg cite the party's decline and failure to connect with the electorate as primary reasons for their departure.

Richard Wolff [12:19]: "They criticize what is a losing proposition... a Democratic National Committee that is asleep at the wheel."

Wolff connects this turmoil within the DNC to Mamdani's triumph, suggesting that his victory embodies the very change union leaders are advocating for—a reinvigoration of the Democratic Party with socialist principles.

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BRICS Economic Growth

Wolff shifts focus to the global economic landscape, highlighting the remarkable growth of the BRICS alliance (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) and its expansion to include twelve additional nations. The bloc has surpassed the G7 to become the world's largest and richest economic consortium, with trade among BRICS nations recently exceeding $1 trillion.

Richard Wolff [14:27]: "United States strategy in Ukraine was a failure because you didn't understand that Russia could turn and trade with the BRICS after it lost the ability to trade with Europe."

He critiques the U.S. administration's strategic missteps, particularly under President Trump, whose tariffs have inadvertently isolated the United States economically by pushing major economies like China towards BRICS partnerships.

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Interview with Metropolitan Opera Orchestra Musicians

Introduction of Guests

In the second half, Wolff introduces Stephanie Mortimer and Javier Gandara, esteemed members of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. Both have held significant roles within the union, contributing to collective bargaining efforts and advocating for musicians' rights.

Charlie Fabian [16:53]: "Stephanie Mortimer... has been the principal Piccoloist of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra since 2000... Javier Gandara... has been a member since 1999 and has held several key positions."

Bargaining Issues and Goals

Javier Gandara outlines the orchestra's primary objectives: achieving parity with peer organizations, securing wages that reflect the high cost of living in New York City, and maintaining the institution's longstanding artistic excellence.

Javier Gandara [19:53]: "We are seeking parity with groups that are our peers in the rest of the country... better working conditions and wages that allow us to live in the city that we work in."

He criticizes nonprofit management's reluctance to invest adequately in their workforce, emphasizing that sustaining artistic quality necessitates fair compensation.

Javier Gandara [20:58]: "They have this market mentality for everything except for the nonprofit. And that, we know, is a mistake."

Impact of the Pandemic on Musicians

Stephanie Mortimer shares the orchestra's harrowing experience during the COVID-19 pandemic, detailing an 18-month furlough without salary—a stark contrast to other orchestras that continued to pay their musicians.

Stephanie Mortimer [22:27]: "We were furloughed for 18 months with no salary... we actually decided to help ourselves... raised over a million dollars in small donations to help our musicians."

The lack of federal support due to the orchestra's large size forced the musicians to unite and seek alternative means of financial support, fostering a strong sense of solidarity.

Pay Scale and Comparison

Mortimer highlights the discrepancy between the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra's wages and those of comparable orchestras, noting a decline in income despite a 40% increase in New York City's cost of living.

Stephanie Mortimer [25:25]: "A 25-year career veteran string player in our orchestra is making a few hundred dollars less than they did in 2011... our peer orchestras have not seen that they are actually keeping up with the cost of living."

She contrasts this with other institutions like the New York Philharmonic, which have successfully negotiated substantial pay increases, underscoring the need for similar advancements at the Metropolitan Opera.

Resilience and Solidarity

Despite management's austerity measures, Mortimer and Gandara emphasize the orchestra's proactive initiatives, such as establishing a chamber music series at Carnegie Hall. These efforts not only provide financial support but also enrich the cultural landscape of New York City.

Javier Gandara [28:00]: "Because the management of the so-called important institution couldn't keep it going, but the workers in that institution figured out how to do that."

This resilience reflects a broader critique of how enterprises are organized in the U.S., suggesting a misalignment between managerial priorities and workers' needs.

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Conclusion

Richard Wolff's episode of Economic Update offers a comprehensive exploration of significant economic and political challenges, both domestically and internationally. By intertwining discussions on military policy, political shifts, union dynamics, and global economic realignments, Wolff provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of the forces shaping today's world. The in-depth interview with Metropolitan Opera Orchestra musicians serves as a poignant case study on labor struggles within cultural institutions, highlighting broader themes of solidarity, economic justice, and the imperative for systemic change.

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Notable Quotes:

• Richard Wolff [00:20]: "We are now living in a society in which we are kept from knowledge of what is really going on and presented instead with carefully choreographed political theater."

• Charlie Fabian [05:28]: "If you're not sure, why would you take such a risk?"

• Richard Wolff [09:56]: "This is shaking up all of the political establishment, not just the Democrats... a sign that the times are changing in big, powerful ways."

• Javier Gandara [19:53]: "We are seeking parity with groups that are our peers in the rest of the country... better working conditions and wages that allow us to live in the city that we work in."

• Stephanie Mortimer [22:27]: "We were furloughed for 18 months with no salary... raised over a million dollars in small donations to help our musicians."

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This episode underscores the interconnectedness of economic policies, political movements, and labor dynamics, offering listeners a profound insight into the ongoing struggles and transformations within key societal institutions.

Transcript

[Richard Wolff]

Welcome, friends, to another edition of Economic Update, a weekly program devoted to the economic dimensions of our lives and those of our children. I'm your host, Richard Wolff.

[Charlie Fabian]

As usual, before jumping in, I want.

[Richard Wolff]

To remind you that Charlie Fabian is awaiting your communications. If you have ideas, suggestions, criticisms that you want to pass on to us, just write him at charlie.info438mail.com I also want to remind you that Understanding Capitalism, a new book we released this year, is a kind of companion volume to these programs. If you're interested in what we do here, if you find this valuable, insightful, then remember these are segments that we produce on this program. If you want to go into the same material in some depths, that's the book for you. It's a kind of companion to this program. Okay, today we have a very interesting program. We're going to start by talking about the U. S. Iran military conflict. Then we're going to have a few words about the remarkable election in the Democratic primary for mayor, the election of Mr. Mamdani, who won that race. We're gonna do it in much more detail a week from now. The whole program will be devoted to that, but a few preliminaries we can already talk to you about. Then the resignation of two union leaders from the Democratic National Committee, which is very closely related to the significance of the Mamdani victory in New York. And then finally, a milestone in the economic growth of the BRICS alliance that is now the center of the world economy and the largest block, richest bloc in it.

[Charlie Fabian]

In the second half, we will be.

[Richard Wolff]

Interviewing two members of the orchestra at the Metropolitan Opera in New York City. That is the number one opera here in the United States and one of the great opera centers of the whole world. It has a spectacularly fine orchestra. I've gone several times myself, and I can tell you it is magical. And these musicians, however, are also members of a union. And a union that is fighting with their management in ways that will affect the future of the opera in New York. The place it occupies in the middle of Lincoln center, but culture more broadly, because it's a fight about our culture and what its values will be. I think you'll find it remarkably interesting. Okay, let's jump right in. You all know, because it was front page news that a few weeks ago the United States sent military airplanes, B2s over the country of Iran and dropped some of the largest bombs that exist in the world on three different locations in Iran where the US Government said they suspected enrichment of uranium to the point of where it could become a weapon, an atomic bomb, in effect. I'm not going to talk about the fact that Iran was not at war with the United States or the United States with it, that this was a completely unilateral decision made by Mr. Trump, who, having promised to end the endless warsthat's his term, not only hasn't ended the one in Ukraine, not only hasn't ended the one in Gaza, but has apparently decided to start another one. I'm not going to talk about those issues around that. I want, however, to draw a lesson from what happened a couple of days later. The Iranians responded by sending missiles over and damaging an American military base, the largest American military base in the Middle east, which is in the country of Qatar. Here's what I want you to think about with me.

[Charlie Fabian]

If there was a serious risk of.

[Richard Wolff]

Nuclear development, of bombing, of enrichment of a uranium beyond what you use for generating electricity and that which can be so terribly destructive, dropping a massive bomb on such a facility risks what it risks spreading radioactivity.

[Charlie Fabian]

You're not sure exactly what's down there.

[Richard Wolff]

That was admitted. Well, if you're not sure, why would.

[Charlie Fabian]

You take such a risk? Two days later, the Iranians sent missiles crashing into and exploding parts of the.

[Richard Wolff]

American military base where the Iranians would have had to assume there would be nuclear bombs or nuclear missiles stored by the United States. That's what military bases do.

[Charlie Fabian]

Well, here's what's likely the answer to.

[Richard Wolff]

My Both sides knew that none of that was there. Had Mr. Trump risked releasing radioactivity into the air, he would have been guilty of an incredible war crime.

[Charlie Fabian]

The only thing comparable was the dropping.

[Richard Wolff]

Of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and.

[Charlie Fabian]

Nagasaki at the end of World War II. And we were at war. War at that time. Not that that justified it, but we were at war.

[Richard Wolff]

We were not at war with Iran. So what the heck is going on? We don't know what was at the bottom of the mountains that the United States bombed, and we don't know what was in the base that the Iranians bombed.

[Charlie Fabian]

But here's the most reasonable guess.

[Richard Wolff]

The United States knew that the stuff wasn't there in Iran and Iran knew that the nuclear stuff wasn't there in Qatar. So what was all this about? We are now living in a society in which we are kept from knowledge of what is really going on and presented instead of with carefully choreographed political theater. That's all we really a theatrical one off strike with bombs that immediately stop and don't resume. And the other side does the same thing in reverse with missiles. And there we are. Neither of them can explain what they were doing in any way that makes sense. And we are left not to know. That was never the intent of the notion of a democratic society. I want to turn next to the Democratic race for mayor that was won by Zoran Mamdani. It is really crucial that people understand what a new milestone has been achieved. A few years ago, a socialist named Bernie Sanders proved that millions of Americans were more than willing to listen to support, vote for, organized for a socialist. A few years later, Alexandra Ocasio Cortez proved that a dynamic, young, energetic socialist could win and hold support in a corner of New York City. And now we have Mr. Mamdani proving that what Ocasio Cortez in a part of New York City achieved, he can achieve for the whole city.

[Charlie Fabian]

And which city is it?

[Richard Wolff]

One of the world's great cities, New York. The United states is number one city, New York, where a big majority.

[Charlie Fabian]

Mr. Mamdani didn't win by a little.

[Stephanie Mortimer]

He.

[Richard Wolff]

He won by a great deal over the former governor, a regular hack Democratic politician who came in a very distant second. This is a bombshell. This is shaking up all of the political establishment, not just the Democrats. As you can see from the grudging admiration that even several Republicans could not help themselves but show, it is a sign that the times are changing and changing in big, powerful ways. Millions of New Yorkers are excited by this new opportunity for what was purged out of American politics over the last 70 years. Socialism. To show its power the way it has all around the world by showing it can excite and win the support of people here in the United States in a big, powerful way. My next update, oh, and I should.

[Charlie Fabian]

Mention next week's program will be entirely.

[Richard Wolff]

Devoted to explaining the background, the significance, where the Mandani administration can take us, deal with it, give it the attention that it deserves.

[Charlie Fabian]

My next update has to do with the fact that two union leaders, Randy Weingarten, the head of the American Federation.

[Richard Wolff]

Of teachers, and Mr. Saunders, his first Lee Saunders, the head of the American Federation of State, county and Municipal Employees, they both sat on the Democratic National.

[Charlie Fabian]

Committee and they both resigned from that committee, as had the young man, David.

[Richard Wolff]

Hogg, who was a survivor of the shooting and began to be a spokesman for the needs of young people to be safe in their schools. Hogg, Weingarten, Saunders, they all said the party is dying. The party is drying up. The party is not appealing to the people. It could and should be appealing to. And you know who is appealing to them? Zoran Mandani. That's the link between these two stories. What the union leaders were complaining about, what they wanted to dramatize by quitting the Democratic National Committee, was then reinforced by Mandani winning. He shows what kind of Democrat can stunningly win and win big. They criticize what is a losing proposition, or as David Hogg said, a Democratic National Committee that is asleep at the wheel. My last update that I have time for was news this last week or so ago from the brics. That's that alliance I have been talking to you about. Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa and now a dozen other nations with them. They are now the largest economic bloc in the world, much larger than the United States and its big allies, the G7. But here's what the BRICS announced that I want you to think they just crossed $1 trillion worth of trade among them, that is among Russia, China, India, Brazil and so on. Why is that important?

[Charlie Fabian]

United States strategy in Ukraine was a.

[Richard Wolff]

Failure because you didn't understand that Russia could turn and trade with the BRICS after it lost the ability to trade with Europe. And you don't understand why China stands.

[Charlie Fabian]

Up to Mr. Trump's tariffs unless you.

[Richard Wolff]

Understand that China can turn to the BRICS to sell what it can't sell in the United States. Mr. Trump, as I have told you before, his tariffs are serving to isolate the United States. No one else. We've come to the end of the first half. Please stay with us for a really insightful interview with the New York Metropolitan Opera musicians. Before we jump into the second half of today's show, I wanted to thank you for your very generous response to our fundraising efforts this year and in particular in the last couple of months. And in part responding to that, we are extending the availability of our limited edition, linen covered hardcover version of Understanding Capitalism, the book I wrote and that we have been making available now for quite a while. If you are interested, I will be signing copies of that hardcover and they will be available to you as they have been over the last few weeks. Just simply send an email to [e-mail] and put in the subject line limited edition. We will send you all the information you need to order and receive your copy, signed copy of Understanding Capitalism in its hardback. And thank you again for your kind attention to the fundraising dimension of what we do. Welcome back, friends, to the second half of today's economic update.

[Charlie Fabian]

I am very proud and glad to.

[Richard Wolff]

Bring to our microphones and to our cameras two people I have gotten to.

[Charlie Fabian]

Know who are musicians on the orchestra.

[Richard Wolff]

Of the Metropolitan Opera at Lincoln center in New York City.

[Charlie Fabian]

The first is Stephanie Mortimer. She's been the principal, and I know.

[Richard Wolff]

I want to pronounce this right.

[Charlie Fabian]

Piccoloist of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra since 2000, she's chair of the Met Orchestra Committee. For the past three years, she was a member of the negotiating team for the 2021 collective bargaining agreement and for the orchestra's return to work following the pandemic. During the furlough of that pandemic, she had a grassroots team of volunteer musicians who raised over a million dollars, largely through small donations, to help support their colleagues in need and to ensure the Met Orchestra remained a visible and vibrant force in the cultural life of New York City. And before I introduce our second musician guests, I want to underscore that the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra is one of the great orchestras of this country and indeed of the world. Opera is a major phenomena around the world, more so than in the United States. This is the number one opera in the United States. So we're talking about one of the great musical assemblages that this country has, and we should think of it as a national treasure. The second guest is Javier Gandara. He has been a member of the Met Opera Orchestra since 1999. He began his professional career at age 16, when he won a position in the Puerto Rico Symphony in San Juan. He later graduated from the Juilliard School and has held positions with several European orchestras, as well as the Oregon Symphony. He was elected to the Musicians Union Committee for six two year terms, helping negotiate three collective bargain agreements and a separate media contract with the Met. So I want you all please to welcome me to welcome these two professional musicians and strong union leaders to our program. Thank you both for giving us your time.

[Javier Gandara]

Thank you for having us.

[Charlie Fabian]

Let me start by asking, Javier, if I may, just to tell us what's at issue. I know you are bargaining with the Metropolitan Opera, that you have issues that have been building for some time, and that you are, as a group now pretty solidly committed to having those issues addressed. Can you give us a quick summary so that other working people and other musicians can have a sense of where you are?

[Javier Gandara]

Well, we are seeking parity with groups that are our peers in the rest of the country. But we also. One thing that is fundamental to our struggle is, of course, we want better working conditions and wages that allow us to live in the city that we work in. But we Find ourselves also. Our struggle is to maintain the quality that has been able to be built over the past 142 years of the Met's existence, the level of performance that has been able to build over that time. We find that our struggle is to retain. To be able to hire new talent and to retain the quality of the institution.

[Charlie Fabian]

And how has that been.

[Richard Wolff]

Problematized?

[Charlie Fabian]

Why has that become difficult over the.

[Richard Wolff]

Recent years and built up to this moment of struggle?

[Javier Gandara]

Right. All institutions, I think, have that internal struggle about finances, balancing finances and artistic quality or artistic direction. Right. I think nonprofits especially, maybe, and it's something that you've mentioned in the program before, is that directors of nonprofit institutions have this notion that the people that work in nonprofits should be happy just to work and to do this work. And they're usually not compensating, thinking of the general market. Right. So they have this market mentality for everything except for the nonprofit. And that, we know, is a mistake. And we know that the men in the past and all institutions that want to reach the highest artistic quality, they do know that they have to invest in the people who work there to hire the best people and retain them.

[Richard Wolff]

You know, I was struck when I.

[Charlie Fabian]

Spoke to some of you to prepare for this program, to hear about how you as working people experience the pandemic. Could you give me and our audience a sense of what happened and how that was experienced by the Met Orchestra musician?

[Stephanie Mortimer]

Yeah. So we were. Yeah, it was very traumatic. We were furloughed for 18 months with no salary. And it's important to note that this was not a common occurrence in our industry when we were first furloughed. I think it was thought that all the orchestras would follow suit, but in fact, they all paid their musicians while we went without salary for that entire time. And we haven't received any back pay for any of that. So it was a very destabilizing time. And it was.

[Charlie Fabian]

Could I interrupt you? Yeah, Stephanie, could I interrupt you? Besides being thunderstruck to hear such a thing, why didn't the Met avail itself of the federal supports that countless other employers did to help, at least to some extent, get their workers through this period? Since the pandemic is in no way, shape or form the world fault of the musician, how in the world did the management there fail to do that?

[Stephanie Mortimer]

That's a good question. Actually, the Met, as well as a few other arts institutions, such as Boston Symphony, I believe, were not eligible for those federal moneys because they were simply too big. So we didn't get any of that help, unfortunately.

[Charlie Fabian]

So the worker there, because your employer is big. The worker is the logic. There is. Anyway, I'm sorry, I interrupted. Go ahead. Give us more of a sense of how that then played out. If you've never been compensated since.

[Stephanie Mortimer]

Yeah, so, I mean, we were of course negotiating the contract for this entire time trying to get back to work, and it took all of 18 months to do so. We, during that time, though, we didn't just sit by idly, we actually decided to help ourselves since we were not getting the assistance we needed from our employer. And we were able to, as you mentioned, raise over a million dollars in small donations to help our musicians. And this came from our supporters and fans all over the world. That global community really came out to support our orchestra. So even though this was a really, really difficult time, it was actually very unifying for our group. And we still have that solidarity today. And we have just started negotiations and we know we still have this solidarity within our orchestra and we are looking to ensure economic stability for the future so that we can have security for our musicians. And we're pretty sure that our group is strong and unified to carry us through our fight.

[Charlie Fabian]

Give me a rough idea of the relationship between the pay scale at the.

[Richard Wolff]

Met Orchestra and other comparable orchestras around.

[Stephanie Mortimer]

The US So while we have fallen really far behind the cost of living, that has not happened to our peer orchestras. A 25 year career veteran string player in our orchestra is, is making a few hundred dollars less than they did in 2011, where at the same time the cost of living in New York has skyrocketed. I mean, it's gone up by I think over 40%. And so our peer orchestras have not seen that they are actually keeping up with the cost of living. I mean, the New York Philharmonic just negotiated actually a staggering deal across, right across the plaza and other orchestras around the country, and not just our peers, we're seeing gains for smaller orchestras and we need to have that same consideration for our group.

[Charlie Fabian]

Is there any justification? I don't want you to give me the arguments your managers do, but is there any justification that we're going to hear in the press or elsewhere for how and why you have been treated so badly relative. I mean, to get to the level of a musician. I know I played the violin in my life too, you have to spend a whole lifetime practicing and developing. It is a lifelong learning and work.

[Richard Wolff]

To do what you do.

[Charlie Fabian]

How is this, what possible justification could they offer for this?

[Javier Gandara]

The justification is usually that they're protecting the institution, that the institution will survive because they're being very conservative in how they're spending money. The problem with that argument is that the institution is not the building. Right. During the pandemic, I remember going often and sitting in front of Lincoln center, which one thing that is I think worth noting is that different cities throughout the country reacted different in different ways to the pandemic. In Dallas, for example, the Dallas Symphony performed throughout the pandemic. They had chamber and full orchestra concerts with very few concert goers allowed to come into the theater because of the. The distancing necessary. And the protocol for testing was incredible that the musician on the way went to be able to perform. But all this was done because the board of directors of that orchestra thought it was important to keep the musicians working and not to stop the cultural life of the. Of the city. In New York, everything was shut down. You would sit in front of Lincoln center and the New York Philharmonic, the ballet, the Met was. It was completely dark and. And that. That was unfortunate that they were not more efforts made to keep some kind of concert series going. We did individually. And one incredibly positive thing that came out of the pandemic was that because the Met Orchestra we were on our own setting up chamber music concerts throughout the city. One of the things that made it into our contract in 2021 was a permanent so far chamber music series, which is a co production of the Metropolitan Opera and Carnegie Hall. So the musicians of the Met Orchestra have a series of seven or eight concerts every year curated by the musicians of the Met Opera and performed on our day off. So that's either on a Sunday or on a Monday, depending on what our day off is. And we put on those concerts at Carnegie Hall. They've been incredibly successful, sold out. It's good for us because they pay us to do it. And also artistically it's important because it keeps our. Chamber music is another aspect of a musician's life and it provides that. And also accompanied by every single one of those concerts is a free concert different be performed that Carnegie hall schedules throughout the city of New York as part of that series.

[Richard Wolff]

You know, I am struck. Allow me to say it. Look what you have just told us. That the management of the so called.

[Charlie Fabian]

Important institution couldn't keep it going. But the workers in that institution figured out how to do that.

[Stephanie Mortimer]

Right.

[Charlie Fabian]

You know, it makes you wonder whether the whole way of organizing enterprises in this country profitable and nonprofitable, is upside down. We leave it in the hands of a small group of people whose logic and whose goals are different from that of the you wanted to keep working and the community needed your work, and that wasn't accomplished by the management. It had to be accomplished despite the management.

[Stephanie Mortimer]

Right.

[Charlie Fabian]

Listen, as often happens on this show, we have run out of time and here's what I would like to propose, if you're willing, once your negotiations are underway, maybe this autumn, if that's still going, we will bring you back and we will have an update conversation on how things have gone for you. And by that time, we'll have an audience that is cheering you on and will want to hear what what they hope is the news that your solidarity has paid off.

[Stephanie Mortimer]

That would be wonderful.

[Charlie Fabian]

Thank you, both of you. Javier, Stephanie, I really appreciate your time and we will look forward and be in touch with you about doing this again in the fall.

[Javier Gandara]

Thank you so much.

[Charlie Fabian]

And to all my audience, as usual, I look forward to speaking with you again next week.