B (15:47)

Thank you so much for having me.

A (15:49)

Well, good. Tell us to start a little bit about your film, what it is, what you have in mind, what you hope it will accomplish.

B (15:57)

Yeah. So Hard Word of Hope is the story of West Virginia's radical past and the folks that are working very hard in the present to build a radical future. And it really speaks to the power, both in terms of the power of burying a radical past, which is something that's done not just in West Virginia, of course, but across the United States with regards to our radical history in terms of labor rights and racial justice. And it also really speaks to how West Virginia is treated like a throwaway state would throw away people, when in reality, West Virginia is not only a microcosm of the issues that the entire country faces in terms of corporate malfeasance and destruction at the hands of industry oppression at the hands of the corporate state, but also this sort of history and present of resilience that's based on, you know, many decades of radical organizing, in particular with regard to labor movements and how that is being used again in this moment, whether that be the West Virginia teachers going on strike or indeed the fight against coal and fracking in the state.

A (17:10)

Tell us what the film, you know, a little bit very brief, to give people a feeling for what you do, what the film says or does in the minutes that you have.

B (17:20)

Right. So I think the main goal of the film is to highlight the importance of recognizing our history, but it also speaks to the importance of not looking at a state or a people like they're a throwaway, like they can be easily discarded. And I think, you know, I grew up partially in North Carolina, and West Virginia was kind of the butt end of jokes there. And if you're the butt end of jokes in North Carolina, then something has really gone Awry. But the truth of the matter is, is that West Virginia is the third poorest state in the nation. It's the second most rural state. And the people there are very isolated, both geographically, but also isolated in terms of the extreme propagandization, the extreme brainwashing that they're dealing with. And, you know, these are some of the reasons why West Virginia also leads the nation in opioids in the opioid crisis and opioid deaths. And what I wanted to show here was I really wanted to show the importance of being organizing with these people. You know, I think that a lot of times, particularly in white organizing circles, people look at places like West Virginia, which is predominantly white and obviously very poor, as a throwaway, that it can be discarded as something that's already a foregone conclusion to the far right wing extremism. But in reality, even if we look at something like the term redneck, which has been propagandized and twisted to mean something different in today's world, actually comes from a labor rights background. The term redneck was started by white and black mine workers who tied on red bandanas and marched together for basic workers rights and actually won basic workers rights during the mine wars at the beginning of the 20th century. So it's really important to bring back this radical history and let it guide as we build and organize in our present day.

A (19:21)

All right, good. Let me push you a little bit to go into some of the implications, if you like, of a film like this. One question that comes up often on this program is that given today's horrendous level of unemployment in the United States, that we can expect, given the way capitalism usually works, that employers are going to take advantage of the unemployment to cut wages, cut benefits, force workers to accept much worse conditions on the job for fear of losing the job, since it's so easy for an employer to pull people out of unemployment. Did you get a sense either when you were producing this film or now that you think back on it, are we in for harder times? Everywhere is the rest of the country's working class and in a way, about to experience what may have already been the reality in West Virginia?

B (20:22)

Yes, and I think you made a great point there. The idea of West Virginia being that microcosm and the importance of recognizing that labor rights organizing is the antidote and the answer to the coming issues that we're going to face, but absolutely, the thing that they've done in coal country and now in fracking country as well, is really hold that over People's heads like, well, you have to have these coal mines, you have to have these pipelines and these, well, pads and things like that, because what are you going to do without jobs? When in reality, as you've noted, too, you could give people jobs doing anything. The idea that you'd have to give people jobs destroying the planet and their own bodies is really absurd. And it really just speaks to the oppressive nature of the capitalist system that places profit above people at every turn. And I think that West Virginia is that kind of that sign on the road that says this is what's up ahead for the rest of the nation in a lot of ways. And that really speaks to why it's so important that folks are organizing in places like West Virginia and beyond, with everything from the coming organizing around the general strike to really recognize that the workers are the ones who have the power. And this sort of pride and oppression that oftentimes happens in industrial towns like we see in West Virginia or Ohio or Kentucky or Pennsylvania, it really is a problem of propagandization. And we as organizers have a job to do in terms of breaking down that propagandization and recognizing and asserting the power of the workers.

A (21:55)

Yeah. And I'm reminded by what you just said of the fact that we did a program here a while back on the West Virginia team teachers strike. And it was really remarkable, the solidarity, the organized. And it kind of goes to your point that there had to be a history behind that, even though they said, you know, we haven't done this before, somewhere in the DNA or in the past of those people is no doubt a kind of history that sits there waiting to be renewed and reborn. All right, let me turn to another question that I know is on many of our viewers and listeners minds. What is the feeling? What did you get from the West Virginia folks that you dealt with in terms of their attitude towards conventional politics, towards Mr. Trump and the GOP on the one hand, and now Biden and the Democrats, how does all of the reality of their hard lives, with the hope you tell us they have, how does that shape what they think about these political alternatives?

B (23:07)

Yeah, I think something that I noticed in West Virginia is something that I know I have also noticed in North Carolina, in Louisiana, in Alabama, in various parts of the south that are known nationally or even internationally as the red states, the very hardcore red states. And people say kind of the same thing. One is that we don't trust the government. The, you know, the Democrats always try to sugarcoat things and Republicans just say it like it is. And the other thing that they say is that they. They listen to someone like Bernie Sanders and they say, hey, yeah, actually, I do think that I should have health care. But of course, we know that the Democrats work incredibly hard to sideline Bernie Sanders, both in 2016 and this year. And so the hard workers in these places like West Virginia who think that Sanders has some good ideas will then say, well, you know what? I just don't trust someone like Biden, and I don't necessarily trust Trump, but I guess he's different, which, of course is silly. He's not. He's a proud member of the billionaire class. But it's this sort of idea that Trump is somehow on the outside looking in, and this sort of dynastic feeling that they get from the Democrats they just absolutely mistrust.

A (24:25)

Well, I mean, I know no one can predict, and I don't want to put you out on a limb here, but is your guess, then, that Mr. Trump will hold a significant number of those people based on what you just told us?

B (24:39)

I do think so, unfortunately. And this speaks to. And one of the former coal miners that I spoke to in West Virginia said that, you know, they had been primed for Trump, that Trump was a perfect example of the deep propagandization that's happened in that state. You know, he said that his grandfather, if you said the word scab, would have had a fit. But now the idea of a scab, that meaning you know, somebody who goes to work when the actual union workers are on strike, that doesn't mean anything. Now, folks look at unions like they're some sort of, like, liberal, you know, step towards anarchy or communism or something like that. So the propagandization really runs deep here. And I think that because of that and because a lot of leftist organizers have not focused on these poor and rural and predominantly white communities, that this propagandization will bolster Trump.

A (25:37)

All right, well, that brings me to my last question. In terms of the time that we have, based on all your experience, not just in West Virginia, but particularly with your hard work on this film, what do you think it would take to revive, to bring to the present situation a kind of culmination or a fulfillment of the radical past you see there and the radical traditions, you find what has to happen to reengage in a political fight that radical root of West Virginia and by extension of the whole country's working class.

B (26:19)

There's a saying in movement spaces that I really like, which is meet people where they're at not where you want them to be. And I think that that has to be something that we really focus on as organizers in these communities. Even if people don't have the privilege of an education, that means they know what something like democratic confederalism means. Everyone knows what oppression feels like. So we have to be willing to meet these folks where they're at, understand the decades of oppression that they've lived under and how they have had to make the difficult choice between working in a coal mine, for instance, and watching their families starve, understanding this oppression and not trying to demonize people who work in these situations, but understanding and empathizing with that situation and having that as a starting point in terms of our organizing and, you know, recognizing that it is grassroots activism, connecting people with their radical history and taking pride in this sort of. In the organizing that saw black mine workers and white mine workers marching together and understanding that this is where we build that solidarity. You know, in the film, I say, at this intersection on the hard road of hope with this shared oppression, is where we have to build that future. And so I think combining that history with the present, like the West Virginia teachers strike, is where we build that power and we see it happening. And I think there's a lot of inspiration to be pulled from West Virginia in that as well.

A (27:46)

Well, I couldn't. I couldn't imagine scripting a better way to end. Thank you very much, Eleanor. Her film. For all of you watching and listening, Hard Roll of Eleanor Goldfield, this is a film we need to spread everywhere in this country because of the message it carries, the renewal of that radical tradition, the recognition that that tradition is there to be built on. So thank you for your film. Thank you for joining us. And for all of those who had the good luck of having this interview, I look forward to speaking with you again next week. Sam. Sa.