EconTalk: Understanding the Settler Colonialism Movement (with Adam Kirsch) — Summary
Date: January 6, 2025
Host: Russ Roberts
Guest: Adam Kirsch (poet, author, literary critic, editor, Wall Street Journal; author of On Settler Colonialism)
Episode Theme: A critical, wide-ranging discussion on the ideology and implications of the 'settler colonialism' framework, its traction in progressive circles, application to countries like the US, Canada, Australia, and Israel, and the impact of this mindset on contemporary politics, activism, and historical reckoning.
Episode Overview
This episode delves into the emergence and evolution of "settler colonialism" as both an academic framework and a moral critique of certain nations—primarily the US, Canada, Australia, and Israel. Russ Roberts and guest Adam Kirsch explore the movement's theoretical roots, its practical manifestations (such as land acknowledgements), its shift from fact-based history to ongoing "structural sin," its impact on activism, and its role in the charged discourse around Israel post-October 7th. The conversation is thoughtful, analytical, and often skeptical about the utility and ramifications of the settler colonialist worldview.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Definition and Origins of Settler Colonialism
[01:23–04:55]
- Definition: Kirsch defines settler colonialism as "the idea that countries founded by European colonialism...are permanently shaped by the original sin of colonization." (03:05)
- Historical Shift: Earlier, the term applied to places like Algeria, with a European settler minority. Over the past 30 years, it's come to include countries with large majority populations of settler descendants (US, Australia, Canada), shifting the decolonization premise: "You can't decolonize the United States as you could Algeria by getting rid of the settlers." (04:24)
- Key Insight: Even new arrivals or descendants of non-European immigrants, and even descendants of slaves, are labeled 'settlers' in this model if they're non-indigenous.
2. Land Acknowledgements as Symbol and Practice
[07:30–12:47]
- Land Acknowledgements: Once niche, now widespread at universities and cultural institutions. These typically state that an institution occupies land of dispossessed indigenous peoples.
- Kirsch's Take: “However it's phrased, the implication is... that Native Americans...are still the legitimate possessors of it...and that Americans...are sort of squatting on this land...” (10:11)
- Roberts' Mixed Feelings: Calls it “virtue signaling” but acknowledges “there is a moral attractiveness to acknowledging sin.” (11:41)
- Deeper Critique: The practice implies a basic illegitimacy of existing society and is “a concrete expression of the idea that we should be thinking about...American civilization as in some basic sense illegitimate...” (10:41)
3. From Factual History to Moral Judgment
[12:47–17:45]
- Nothing New in Facts: "None of these are new claims or surprising claims...It makes theoretical claims or moral claims about what are the obligations that we have now..." (13:00)
- Contrast with Civil Rights Movement: Martin Luther King's approach was to claim America failed its ideals but could strive to fulfill them, while settler colonialism frames the founding as a permanent sin: “It's very hard to see what can be done to make things better...if you're saying from the beginning this thing should not exist, this civilization should not exist.” (16:58)
4. Irredeemability, Agency, and Progressive Paradox
[17:45–22:04]
- Roberts: Describes the view as “irreedeemable” and fundamentally backward-looking, not offering a constructive path forward. (18:08)
- Kirsch: Notes the irony: for an ideology calling itself progressive, this view is “not about progress”; it imposes the burden of atonement on the majority, not empowerment of the oppressed minority as classic progressive movements have. (20:30)
5. Edenic Narratives and the Idealized Past
[22:04–31:03]
- Roberts: Points out the Edenic, utopian narrative—that indigenous societies were “pristine and perfect,” while European arrivals brought nothing but corruption. (22:34)
- Kirsch: This view ignores indigenous conflict and change. “It's fundamentally not historical...What we're seeing in settler colonialism is a conversation among settlers about what's wrong with us, about how we can solve the problems of our own society.” (29:12)
- Original Sin Parallel: There’s an “odd similarity with evangelical Christianity... acknowledging that one is sinful.” (30:03)
6. Critique as Morality Play & Internal Group Identity
[31:03–32:33]
- Roberts: If you deny being a 'settler,' that itself serves as proof in this framework—much like the catch-22 of certain moral accusations. (31:04)
- Kirsch: There's social prestige in the group for acknowledging your guilt: “The guiltier you are, the better you are, because you are the one who acknowledges the guilt.” (32:10)
7. Practical Disconnection: Real Native Issues vs. Social Critique
[35:07–36:45]
- Kirsch: “When people talk about settler colonialism in North America, it's very rarely about benefiting actual living Native Americans...It's a kind of critical theory...about these societies.” (35:30)
8. Positive Aspects of Reckoning with History
[36:45–41:23]
- Roberts: Acknowledges the healthy corrective to prior “triumphalism and ethnocentrism.” (38:58)
- Kirsch: “The first responsibility...is to tell the truth about what happened in the past, to be honest, about what the history is, and then...how it should guide and inform us in the present.” (39:22)
- Caution: The settler colonialist outlook “presents the maximal case against the civilization in ways that...are destructive of the future.” (40:53)
9. Settler Colonialism & the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
[41:23–58:17]
- Roberts' Summary: The simplistic founding mythology of Israel versus the more nuanced history, including the reality that some Arab residents were pushed out in 1948. (41:23–44:02)
- Kirsch: After October 7th, the “language of settler colonialism” was used to justify or celebrate attacks on Israeli civilians (“there are no Israeli civilians because they're all settlers”). (45:07)
- Core Issue: "If Israel is a settler colonial state ... then anyone resisting settler colonialism is by definition on the side of justice." (45:23)
- Comparative Analogy: The intense international focus on Israel reflects its symbolic role as a “stand-in for all the issues of Western colonialism, racism, etc.” (50:32)
- Dogmatic Polarity: For settler colonial theorists, “Palestinians are indigenous and Jews are colonizers; whereas for Jews, Jews are indigenous.” (53:56)
- Call for Practical Focus: The real question is, “How are those people [Jews and Arabs] going to live together in a way that involves minimum suffering and violence for everyone?” (55:04)
- Two-State Solution: Kirsch: “That is the solution that ultimately has to come to pass unless something much worse comes to pass...But I think that the wrong way to look at it is to say Jews are settler colonizers who don't belong here and should be expelled.” (57:04)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Framework Definition:
“Settler colonialism...means that a lot of the injustices and problems, as critics see it, with those countries can be explained by reference to that European settlement.”
— Adam Kirsch [03:15] -
On Symbolism & Practicality:
“They're strictly symbolic. You've never heard of a university saying, 'We're going to give up our land and return it...' But...it's a sort of concrete expression...that we should be thinking about...American civilization as in some sense illegitimate.”
— Adam Kirsch [10:05] -
On ‘Original Sin’ Parallels:
“There's an odd similarity with evangelical Christianity, Protestantism, and even...the Puritans...It’s about acknowledging that one is sinful...I've inherited it. I'm a settler, sort of by inheritance. And the first step...is to acknowledge that you are a sinner.”
— Adam Kirsch [30:03] -
On Movement’s Focus:
“It's not about benefiting actual living Native Americans...It’s much more a social critique...about these societies in which settlement and colonialism are sort of the original source of the problems.”
— Adam Kirsch [35:30] -
On Israel as ‘Settler Colonial’ Lightning Rod:
“Anyone who’s resisting settler colonialism is by definition on the right side, on the side of justice...it's almost like you're saying we can't fight settler colonialism in any concrete way in Australia...but here in Israel, you have people who are taking up arms...”
— Adam Kirsch [45:23] -
On Peace & The Future:
“How are those people going to live together in a way that involves minimum suffering and violence for everyone? That...is the only solution that doesn’t involve perpetuating a massive injustice against either Jews or Arabs.”
— Adam Kirsch [55:04, 57:04]
Important Timestamps
- Definition & Historical Roots: [01:28–04:55]
- Land Acknowledgements: [07:30–12:47]
- Contrasts with Civil Rights Framing: [12:47–17:45]
- Irredeemability & Progressive Contradictions: [17:45–22:04]
- Edenic Narratives: [22:04–31:03]
- Original Sin Parallel: [29:12–31:03]
- Critique as Morality Play: [31:03–32:33]
- Disconnect from Real Native Issues: [35:07–36:45]
- Benefits of Historical Reckoning: [38:41–41:23]
- Israel, October 7th, and Left Discourse: [44:02–58:17]
Tone and Closing Thoughts
Kirsch maintains a calm, analytical tone, echoing praise from Roberts for eschewing polemics: “He doesn't do any yelling. There’s no yelling in the book...” [07:26]. The conversation is reflective, with both host and guest noting the need for honest history, humility in self-assessment, and skepticism toward maximalist narratives—whether triumphalist or radically deconstructionist. The episode is rich in historical context, philosophical nuance, and contemporary resonance, especially regarding Israel and the consequences of theory morphing into activism.
Recommended Reading:
- On Settler Colonialism by Adam Kirsch
- Question 7 by Richard Flanagan (memoir highlighted by Roberts for its section on the genocide of Tasmania’s indigenous people)
Summary Prepared For:
Listeners seeking a clear, thematic, and nuanced understanding of the settler colonialism framework, its roots, its spread, current activism, and controversies—articulated in the original, thoughtful, and often skeptical voices of Russ Roberts and Adam Kirsch.