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Educational Alpha
S3: Conversation with Thomas Kim, Managing Director, Independent Directors Council, Investment Company Institute
00:39:40
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- [00:05]
Bill Kelly
Welcome to Educational Alpha. I'm Bill Kelly, your host, bringing you on the ground conversations with business leaders, educators and industry colleagues from around the globe. Educational Alpha is sponsored by iCapital, the financial technology company with a mission to power the world's alternative investment marketplace. Part innovator, part educator, and part navigator of the alternatives industry, iCapital offers intuitive, scalable digital solutions that have transformed how private market and hedge fund investments are bought and sold. With iCapital, financial advisors, wealth managers and asset managers around the world now have access to everything they need to deliver the return and diversification potential of alternatives to high net worth investors. To learn more, visit icapital.com in this.
- [01:01]
Thomas Kim
Episode, Bill welcomes Independent Directors Counsel Managing Director Thomas Kim to explore the evolving role of independent fund directors in today's financial landscape. They discuss the history and growth of the mutual fund industry, the importance of fiduciary responsibilities, and the growing complexities of investment oversight. Tom shares his perspective on how governance has changed since the introduction of the 40 act, the impact of ETFs, the importance of professional fund management, and the increasing need for financial education for investors. The conversation also touches on the future of asset management, the role of technology and AI in investing, and how independent directors can prepare for the challenges of tomorrow.
- [01:42]
Bill Kelly
Tom Kim, welcome to Educational Alpha.
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Tom Kim
Very good to be with you Bill.
- [01:47]
Bill Kelly
Glad we finally pulled this off. You and I known each other for quite some time but have not spent much time together. But I hatched this idea last year when the mutual Fund was turning 100 and the Independent Directors Council, which you've been overseeing since 2019, was turning 20 years old. But as I said to you a moment ago before we hit the record button, I'll take 101 and 21 any day because you've got a lot of great insights and looking forward to it. And before I turn it back to you to maybe just bring us up to date as to where you were early career and where you are today, maybe just a slight disclaimer in that I guess I am a member of the idc, sitting on the Artisan Partners Fund Board and now moving to Chair of the Audit Committee. My good friend and colleague Colleen Deneen is on your governance structure and so I don't think that presents any conflict at all because I think I'm disclosing the importance of ongoing education for people overseeing the funds industry. So with that disclaimer aside, Tom, welcome and maybe just give the audience a bit about your street cred.
- [02:48]
Tom Kim
Sure, happy to do that Bill. And I think that with your retirement from your recent day job, we look forward to even more engagement. And just given your background in so many areas of expertise, we'd love to circle back with you because I think especially in the area of alternatives and the convergence that's happening within asset management, you have some incredible insights that I think the director community could benefit from. Just very quick. With respect to my background, my career path has been quite non linear. I am a lawyer by training, but much of my career has been the intersection of law and public policy. And I realized fairly early in my career that while interpreting the law was a core skill of being a lawyer, what I found compelling was helping shape the law, the law, rules, regulations. And that was what was compelling to me and seem to fit more with my skill set. And so that's what I've leaned into throughout my career, whether as in house counsel or with the government or at different trade associations. And with respect to the latter, I have, I think really benefited from and appreciated the chance to work at membership organizations. So fairly early in my career I worked as an attorney at the ICI or the Investment Company Institute, which is what the Independent Directors Council is part of. And then later on and more recently I served in a senior role at the Mortgage Bankers association, leading a significant part of that organization for almost a decade. And as you mentioned about six years ago, I returned to ICI to run the Independent Directors Council. So it's been varied but a great ride. And it's funny how different elements of one's career can contribute to the knowledge base for what we need to do in a particular moment.
- [04:51]
Bill Kelly
Thank you for that public service and you've impacted so many individuals, so many investors, and I could say this with confidence. I knew of you before I knew you, so thanks for all of that. Certainly gives you a great credibility and a service to all of the independent directors and the end investor in the current role you're in. So I do want to spend most of our time talking about the idc, the role of the Independent Director. But before we get there, maybe if you could just give us a little bit of the thumbnail of the 40 act space. It's changed a lot. Still the primary savings vehicle for a lot of individuals, primary savings vehicle for retirement for many individuals as well, but maybe the size and shape of the industry. And as I mentioned, this fund space, the 40 act space, goes all the way back to 1924, which a different MIT and mass financial behind it. But I'll turn it over to you.
- [05:42]
Tom Kim
Sure, yeah. So as you Referred to last year, 2024 is the 100th anniversary of the very first mutual fund which was set up by MFS Investment Management. They set up the Massachusetts Investors Trust that year and that's actually a fund that still exists today. So it's quite remarkable. And it predates the 40 act, as you mentioned, which is the Investment company Act of 1940. That's one of the primary statutes that govern the world of registered funds. So what are we talking about in terms of registered funds? They are mutual funds which are quite ubiquitous, pooled investment vehicles really designed for your average middle income investor. They also encompass ETFs, exchange traded funds. There are closed end funds as well. There are business development companies, BDCs. And so there are a variety of different types of funds that exist within the 40 act world. But they have been around for a very long time and at the same time they have grown tremendously. So if we're talking about the world of registered funds, primarily mutual funds and ETFs, which the latter category is growing tremendously, we're at over 37 trillion of assets under management. So if you kind of think about it in terms of scale, that is significantly more than all bank deposits domestically combined. You have about 125 million shareholders that invest in registered funds. And we're talking about depends on the day, but over 11,000 funds themselves. So it's a very important segment of, of the financial services landscape. And perhaps one of the most important reasons is that again, it serves your average household that is investing for the long term, whether for down payment for buying a home, certainly for retirement and saving for one, children's college education. All reasons that I personally have benefited from investing in these types of vehicles. And as a result of that, it is a highly regulated space going back to the federal statute, but also the very stringent oversight of the securities and Exchange Commission in this area. But notably, I think the strong oversight, the significant regulation has, I think strengthened the growth of this product because again, there's a great sense of confidence on the part of the individual investor and saving something for the long term in these pooled vehicles designed for that purpose.
- [08:34]
Bill Kelly
A very good and interesting history. A couple of things I want to come back to, but maybe bigger picture. Tom, I've had this debate with several people about whether or not we're working within an industry or a profession. And I come out on the side that it is an industry, not a profession. I say that from the standpoint of public accounting. I'm a CPA myself, albeit lapsed and public accounting, it may not have all the best aspects to it and runs its challenges. Like any industry, it is a profession because people by the name of Ernst and Waterhouse and Coopers and Lybrand got together in the late 1800s and said, let's compete by day, but let's have standards that if a client fires me and hires you, an opinion letter looks the same, disclosures look the same. In 1924, when mass financial started that first mutual fund, there was probably some rules and regulations that predated the 40 act, but there was no CFA on the scene, there was no ICI, there was no Chi Association. And while I would like to think, and they probably did right by the end investor, it was a little bit of the Wild West. So I think one of the challenges that we have and we should embrace this is that we're serving, as you just said, over 100 million individuals in this space, 30 some odd trillion dollars of assets bigger than the GDP of the United States. These are some big, big numbers. So while we never perhaps might ever be a profession, we should recognize our professional responsibility in this space. So maybe to turn that into a question, I curious your views as to whether or not we are a profession, we are an industry, and what our responsibilities are to continue to lean into that.
- [10:14]
Tom Kim
Absolutely. And perhaps I can respond to it in two ways. I think that within asset management, the context at a very high level is you have professionals that are managing assets, money for others, for the benefit of others. That is, there's a core trust concept there. And as a result, those who serve through this profession, they are fiduciaries. Now, that's obviously a very significant term that has legal responsibilities associated with it. But at a high level, what does being a fiduciary involve? There's a duty of loyalty and a duty of care. And there is so much precedent behind what that means. But ultimately it is doing what is best for that client or the shareholder that you are serving. And so asset management firms, the investment advisors, if you will, who provide their portfolio management services, are functioning as fiduciaries for their clients, for the shareholders, for sure. I think the second part of it, which gets to my role in leading the Independent Directors Council and the board seat that you have on a fund board, is that boards are charged with overseeing that, and they too are fiduciaries. And in addition to that, there is an incredibly important independence requirement that comes with it. And Bill, feel free to chime in on this because you are living this as part of the hat. You Wear. But there are some really important elements to the 40 act regime that ensures that there are certain checks and balances to make sure that there is very robust oversight. And a very significant role there is that of the independent director on a fund board. So these independent directors or trustees, their job, their role specifically is to look out for the interests of the fund and the shareholders. And as a result of that there is even greater confidence that the end shareholder can have because this structure exists. And even if your average investor, my 20 some odd year old son, he may not be as familiar with the existence of fund boards, but the fact that it exists has really benefited the investor community for the hundred years really that funds have been around.
- [12:52]
Bill Kelly
I agree with all that. The structure makes great sense. And even though many of the shareholders may not fully understand, appreciate or even know they exist, they're there for a reason. And you stated it so very well. Maybe that ties into perhaps Tom, the evolution of the idc. And if I have these dates right, you can reset it. You came in in 2019 when it was circa 14 years old, is now 20 years old as of last year, moving on to 21. But it's interesting that if I again understand this right, the IDC set a committee aside in 1995 for the very first time to think about education for directors. And it's hard to say, well, where Were you in 1995? I could tell you where I was working, but what I was doing on this particular day, who the hell knows. But I think about 1995 and a couple things occur to me. One is that the Internet was just getting warmed up. So alt data wasn't really out there. Smartphones were maybe not even existence back then. We had those big flip phones that weighed a ton. And I think about the 401k space. And that space grew up in my lifetime. It came out quite by accident by and nerdy actuary in the 1980 Tax Act. It might have been 1978 as a tax deferral mechanism for Kodak and Corning and big of these upstate fat cats and all of a sudden created the 401k plan. And maybe to finish that narrative, I remember going to work for Bear Stearns leaving public accounting circa 1984 and bear had a defined benefit plan. And just like every company was awesome. And they came in and they said let me tell you about this new thing called a 401k plan. And that's when it was beginning. So in 1995 the industry looked very different. The risks we were overseeing were Very, very different. So maybe you could walk me through maybe some of the themes and you weren't there in 1995 either, but you were in the industry. Maybe the challenges in 95 where they were in 2019. And how does Tom Kim Circuit 2025 look at the current year and into the future in terms of challenges and maybe responsibilities for the director?
- [14:58]
Tom Kim
Those questions are certainly spot on and maybe I'll try to respond in a couple of different pieces. I think you are absolutely right that in the mid-90s the world of mutual funds and asset management was very different for all the reasons that you mentioned. I think though that the, the industry itself did very much understand that with respect to the mutual fund product in particular, it is ideally designed for long term investing. So if you're thinking of a longer term investment horizon, you think of retirement and you think of facilitating long term savings by investors across the demographic landscape. And in the early 80s with the creation and growth of the 401k and in the 90s it started to grow tremendously. This is an area that I'm somewhat familiar with because I used to work quite a bit on retirement policy actually. And so whether it's the 401k employer sponsored plan which grew significantly as the traditional defined benefit plan plan continued to decline in popularity and still is declining today. And then you think about the long term viability of Social Security, which is an incredibly important government safety net, but a lot of questions about its fiscal long term future. And so the 401k and along with it the IRA grew tremendously. And I think that the industry by and large had the foresight to align with those broader changes. And that's one of the reasons why I think you've seen the success of these products over the last several decades. For sure, the world of investing is changing quite a bit. And this particular podcast, probably it's a little bit outside the scope to get into these issues, but I do think, think that from an individual shareholder's perspective there's something to be said for having a broad range of products that are available for long term or shorter term investing. And so you have the traditional mutual fund with all of its varieties, actively managed, index based, otherwise all the different asset classes underneath, you have the tremendous growth of ETFs for for sure and there are more and more ETFs that are being launched and there may be some policy related issues there which may further facilitate that. But all that to be said, I think that there are some core principles here where you want to make sure, that there's a broad range of choices for the individual investor, but one also wants to be careful in terms of ensuring that there's an appropriate regulatory regime that exists and that certainly in the world of registered funds, with the existence of a fund board and the independent directors, that role of oversight by an independent trustee becomes even more important and frankly, as you could probably attest to it, becomes more complex because of the incredible pace of change that we've seen over the last certainly decade and more, even the last couple of years, and what we'll probably see in the years to come.
- [18:33]
Bill Kelly
So, Tom, in our what will be 30 to 45 minutes together today, I can say without qualification, you just said the two most important words when you were just speaking. Now, when you describe mutual funds as saving vehicles, and unfortunately it's not the job of the independent director, not the job of the management company, not the job of IDC to teach the investor about long termism. And maybe that was my day job at Kaya. And you may say go back and start doing more of that because that's what we really need. But we've seen all these studies, Dalbar and others, that the average investor does 2 to 300 basis points worse than the return on the fund because there is either so much choice and so much noise in CNBC where they get frightened and come back out. And I think if the investor could put together a wholesome asset allocation mix and realize, particularly if they're 30 years old and this is retirement money, don't react to the latest nuance in the marketplace. If you're reasonably diversified and even if the equity market draws down 55%, if you got 20% exposure, your recovery point is much easier to attain. And then maybe last point, you get your reaction when you sell, you've done two things. You've locked in a new basis and it's usually lower. And then secondly, you've probably taken a tax hit and maybe it's a capital gains which is a little bit more favorable. So if you reset, your base is so much lower and you've locked in that loss. And it's funny, people say this all the time, that our industry is the only time where the merchandise goes on sale and people hit the exit button. So ironically, some of these might be good entry windows. So again, outside of your scope of mine is an independent director, but maybe your views on how do we teach the investor these are savings vehicles, full stop.
- [20:18]
Tom Kim
That's absolutely right. And they are created, generally speaking, for the long term. I think that there is a lot of room for greater education at the individual, consumer and household level. For sure. There are certainly demographic differences and if you look at even the data on the average mutual funder ETF investor, they tend to be in the Gen X or the baby boomer generation for sure. And over the course of the last 10 years or so in particular there's been a proliferation of a broad range of different products. So there's a lot of competition for that attention within the financial services space. I do go back perhaps to one of the things that you mentioned. I think that over time one does realize that investing and beating the market, if you will, isn't so easy. And there is a lot to be said for relying on those who do this work day in and day out, regardless of asset class, focus Investment strategy I hearken back to what a prior president of ICI the first time that I worked at this organization 20 plus years ago mentioned. There are two things that you can say at a very high level are attractive about the mutual fund. One is diversification. You buy a fund and by definition you get some degree of diversification. And the second is professional management. Now that can mean a lot more things than it did back then, but that's what you do get. And over time you do see the benefits of saving for the long term and allowing firms that specialize in this area to be able to manage those assets on your behalf. And again having the confidence that you have with strong regulation and then of course the role of a fund board and a trustees and so forth. I can just say from my experience I happened to invest a small amount of money in a 401k like vehicle. 30 years ago I forgot about it and about 10 years ago I decided to look and it had almost tripled. Now that wasn't because of my investing savvy. It was a result of a diversified portfolio as modest as it was was. But in addition to that the power of compounding and the generally speaking, certain asset classes over time have gone up. And I think those are lessons that are learned through experience and sometimes with.
- [23:08]
Bill Kelly
Time to put a bold underscore in real time for me. Tom so I just finished 11 years at Kaya. I think there was a waiting period to get into the 401 plan of maybe a year. So I was in the plan for a decade and non for profits like Kaya, not the highest payers on the street. And I don't need to tell you that having spent a career in public service yourself, which I thank you again for. But there Are a lot of other benefits attached to it. Including the match in the 401 plan was reasonably good. But I don't think I made an asset allocation decision the 10 years I was there. I maxed out so I could benefit from the match and benefit on the tax deferral mechanisms. And then two days ago I get a rollover check in the mail. And I marched into Fidelity's office in downtown Boston yesterday morning, dropped the check off and now it's in my IRA rollover account of Fidelity. The government did not take a penny from me. And I think the power of the compounding long termism and the power that I don't have to touch that until I'm seventy and a half and then I could take it out in increments. It's a tremendously powerful tool. And maybe that states the obvious. But moving to an area where I want to cover is the Target Date Fund space, where that's, I guess for all intents and purposes a set it and forget it asset allocation for the individual. You can pick your date and they adjust the asset allocation for you. But there has been some movement at the DOL and other places about looking at the Target Date Fund as a place for a greater home for less liquid or illiquid securities. And a couple of thoughts there. And then I'll turn to you to say that investors should absolutely have access to the private markets full stop. Because that's where David Swensen invested. I think it does the value proposition short service. I look at where value creation and capital formation is happening. It is in the private markets, full stop. The small cap space is so efficient now. It used to be a very inefficient space publicly and there were opportunities there on the debt side, broadly syndicated is there. But the yield is happening in the private credit space. So it's more that we have to give investors access to where the action is. And I think it does have to happen, but in smart and thoughtful ways. And without that it should not happen at all. But if I think about an entry point where maybe it makes the most sense, it is in the Target Date Fund. And again, this is outside the remit of an independent director. To a large degree it's regulation.
- [25:34]
Tom Kim
But.
- [25:34]
Bill Kelly
But we have a retirement promise that's broken in many ways. And giving access to investors to where capital formation is happening is something I think the industry has to give more careful thought to.
- [25:45]
Tom Kim
Yes. And I am assuming, Bill, that when you mentioned Target Date funds being potentially an appropriate type of vehicle where there could or should be maybe more access to the private markets, if you will. That's because of the longer term nature and expectations of target aid funds. Correct?
- [26:06]
Bill Kelly
Correct. And also maybe just to add to state the obvious, professionally managed. So if I'm going to go to XYZ GP and pick their very best private credit fund through my self directed ira, do I have a better chance of getting that right versus a trained seasoned investment professional overseeing the Target Date fund? And I think that should not be dismissed.
- [26:27]
Tom Kim
Yeah, I think that the professional management that you get, certainly with asset classes that are less liquid, from my perspective, again with the hat that I wear and leading the Independent Directors Council, is that it is very important for investors to have a broad range of choices, including with asset classes that could provide more alpha over time and that really may ensure or help one secure a retirement that has more replacement income, for example. But just as importantly as we were talking about before, I think that when you go into spaces that may not be as familiar with certain segments of the investing public, there needs to be strong oversight, certainly significant disclosure, so that expectations, particularly about liquidity and perhaps maybe a little bit more inside baseball, but also about valuation. So if you're talking about a large cap equity fund, you know the price of the underlying stocks, but valuation when it comes to private equity or private credit, it's a much more robust, detailed exercise and there's a lot more judgment involved for sure. These are maybe some of the issues that I think are very important to consider as the private markets, both equity and credit, become part of the greater narrative of the broader asset management landscape. And I think as a result of that, from a director's perspective or that of idc, we're very closely monitoring where some of the issues could be while at the same time ensuring and trying to allow for the broader investing public to have that access.
- [28:23]
Bill Kelly
Thank you for bringing up valuation. So, so very important. And I think sometimes it doesn't get the do it deserves. And if I think about the traditional drawdown fund and I'm an LP and I go to the GP at the end of the court and say I don't think I like that valuation, does it really matter? Because it's going to be what it's going to be when they sell the asset, nobody's trading on that value. But if I've got say an interval fund that might not be under the 40 act, but I've got a 5% window opening every quarter, somebody is trading on that value. So it doesn't mean you can't be using some form of matrix pricing, but to assume it's at the fair market value, because that's where I bought it, that's not correct either. So a very important point that I just did not want to fly by. So, Tom, we've got a few minutes left and a lot I want to cover, but maybe to stick with a couple of themes. One is, as I said, you joined in 2019, the IDC turned 20 last year. So in 2029 or maybe 2030 to keep it round, what does the IDC look like five years from now? Not so much your headcount. That means something too, and I think it's going to have to be higher than lower. But what are the responsibilities of the end director and how are they evolving? And maybe just to put one more point on that is I think about the course of my 40 plus years in this industry. 30 plus before Kaya were on the buy side of asset management. And during that period of time it was a pretty placid space. Markets had some fluctuations and drawdowns, et cetera, but the underpinnings of fundamental analysis and all the service providers, nothing really changed. But the pace of change now is enormous and we might have a settlement process that's going from T plus 1 to T plus 1 nanosecond and the introduction of distributed ledger and blockchain and what that means vis a vis valuations and so many other things. So your role at IDC and my role as a director is to be thinking around that next corner to some degree, because I can't oversee a risk if I never really encountered it in the course of my career. So you've got a tough job, a challenging job I do as an independent director. But maybe you've got a window and a better window into 2030 perhaps than I do.
- [30:33]
Tom Kim
Well, I appreciate that expression of confidence, Bill. I think that all the themes that you just highlighted are spot on. The role of an independent director in an organization like the Independent Directors Council, part of our job is to anticipate now it might be at a high level or it could be more granular, depending on what's happening, say, in the world of public policy and the role of the regulator. What I would say is that there are certain mission pillars that the IDC operates on and we plan to really double down in a number of areas. So very much aligned with the title of this podcast. Perhaps our primary mission pillar is education. We want to make sure that independent directors who serve on fund boards overseeing the interests of fund shareholders are equipped as best as possible to fulfill their fiduciary responsibilities. So we've been doing that from day one, since we were established in 2004, and that is going to continue. But to your point, how that is reflected, for example, in our curriculum, our programming, our events that we convene, that's going to continue to evolve tremendously. To your point about technological advances and as a result of that, tremendous changes in the marketplace, no question that that's going to continue. Obviously, recently there's incredible conversations about the role of generative AI and that reaches into so many areas, whether it's portfolio management to companies that may be investing in those sectors, to even governance and how the board operates. So those are the types of issues that we are very much focused on. But I will say that it's also very important to focus on the core elements of what boards do because there are certain responsibilities that independent trustees have. That's of oversight, overseeing compliance, overseeing investment performance, the decision around the renewal of the advisory contract, not to throw out letters or numbers too much, but the 15C process, which you're very familiar with. So one can't take one's eyes off of those core responsibilities because ultimately it's both complex and simple at the same time. Simple in that the fund and the shareholders have to come first. Now, how one navigates and ensuring that that is effectuated, that is a complex exercise. And I think those changes and the complexity of the marketplace and with technological developments in particular will make it even more so. And that's what we are doing day in and day out, as I'm looking at with our fantastic team a year, two, three years out. These are exactly the conversations that we're having and frankly, we're excited about it.
- [33:57]
Bill Kelly
Well, I think you have always had the right focus and trust that you will continue to have it going forward. And it's interesting, just the 15C process and overseeing advisory contracts, renewal thereof, conflicts of interest. I do wonder someday if the counterparty is a bot or an algorithm as opposed to an organization. And we'll see where we go. I did a podcast, recorded one on these DAOs, decentralized autonomous organizations and what it means to the future of industry. You could fit what I know about that space in a thimble. But there's a lot going on and as a director we don't have to know all of it, but we have to know enough about it to be curious and ask that follow up question. And I know that's what you're all about. So Tom, in the remaining minutes, I know that you and I and so many in this space say, well, this sounds interesting. I want to be a fun director. I would say the short answer is, it's complicated, but it's a numbers game to some degree. And people have to recognize that the number of directors versus funds is a tough nut to crack. But there are some things that people can do to prepare for it. And maybe part of that preparation is maybe for every individual being a little bit of their own fund director too, and being governance for themselves as well. So I think it serves their own investment acumen a little bit too. But what advice do you give somebody either that comes to you or listens to this podcast and says, this sounds interesting? Where do I sign up?
- [35:16]
Tom Kim
That's a good question, Bill. I think that one of the areas that I try to underscore when I have conversations with aspiring directors is become familiar with the space. What do I mean by that? Most folks have some understanding of what a board of directors is to some extent, especially in the public operating company space. But when you hear about what a mutual fund board does, or an independent director on a board of an ETF and so forth, there are similarities and differences. We don't have time to get into detail, but I think understanding some of those similarities and differences are key to it. Similarities, of course, is that you're a fiduciary, you have the duty of care, duty of loyalty, and so forth. But within the registered fund space, there are particular roles that an independent trustee has that one doesn't have to become an expert, but at least having some degree of familiarity. In addition to that, I think this notion of governance, which is a term that we use quite often, but there's a lot to it, and what does it mean to exercise oversight on a board? And I think that there are ways that individuals can get a little bit more familiarity with that. There are certainly board roles outside of the fund board of directors space, or in the public operating company space, or even in the for profit space. There are lots of nonprofit boards, other board opportunities, and I think from for individuals to have some of that experience, it provides a little bit more context ultimately in what one does as a director. I would also say that with respect to if one is really interested in serving on a fund board one day, look at some of the educational resources out there. You could go to our website, idc.org and we have quite a bit of resources there that provides a high level overview of what fund boards do, what our role is at idc. But in addition to that what's happening in the world of public policy that can impact fund governance overall. And then I would just add to that that we did create a number of years ago a database in partnership with Diligent Corporation, which is a technology company that among other things, they focus on governance. And that's a database that we created for board ready candidates who might want to add their profile to this database. So there are a number of areas where I think one can start down this journey. But to your point, I think to pursue it if this is really of interest, but also understand that it's an oversubscribed space for sure. There are a little over at this time, 1600 or so independent trustees who serve in these roles. And these boards tend to have directors that serve for quite some time because there is a pretty significant learning curve even after one joins a particular fund board.
- [38:41]
Bill Kelly
Okay, well, I have nothing but more time on my hands, Tom. So I do promise to be a better, more active, more engaged member. I hope to spend more time at some of these IDC meetings, both virtually and real. And the quality and content there have been excellent in the times I've gone. And I look forward to learning more from you and the team there, but we'll leave it at that. And I do again want to thank you for a career dedicated to public service, dedicated to the end investor, dedicated to better outcomes. And we're all enriched for that. So thank you for that and thank you for your time these last 45 minutes.
- [39:12]
Tom Kim
Well, thank you very much for having me, Bill. And it's been an absolute pleasure and looking forward to continuing to work with you.
- [39:20]
Bill Kelly
Thank you for listening to Educational Alpha. I'm your host, Bill Kelly. Learn more about the Kaya association and subscribe to the show at kaya.org. that's Caia.org See you next time.