Effectively Wild Episode 2386: GOATs and Goats

Hosts: Ben Lindbergh (The Ringer), Meg Rowley (FanGraphs)
Date: October 11, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the breathtaking end of the Philadelphia Phillies’ postseason, focusing on Orion Kerkering’s game-losing error and the resulting team dynamics, fan reactions, and broader baseball culture around ‘heroes and goats.’ Ben and Meg discuss the cruelty and folklore of negative legacy plays, the evolving nature of analytics, pitch tipping in the playoffs, and the future of MLB digital rights—all while processing the emotional and statistical fallout from a marathon of dramatic postseason games.

Patreon Playoff Live Streams and Upcoming Schedule

[00:37–02:28]

• Ben announces tentative dates for Patreon playoff live streams: Friday, October 17th and possibly the 24th (World Series Game 1).
• Details for Patreon supporters at the Ned Garver tier or above; access via Patreon Discord.
• Meg jokes about keeping a ‘level tone’ due to stress about the Mariners’ playoff fate, introducing the mood of the episode.

Processing the Phillies' Season-Ending Error

[04:15–14:24]

Event Recap

• The Phillies’ postseason ends on a walk-off error by reliever Orion Kerkering, a mistake with outsize emotional and narrative consequences.
• Immediate reactions are of sympathy for the young pitcher rather than anger or derision.

Quotes & Highlights

• Meg [05:26]: "It was devastating what happened. It was a just total brain fart. A moment of panic."
• Chris Woodward (Dodgers' 1B coach) noted the team was surprised Kerkering didn't take the sure out at first.
• Ben [06:21]: "It's already an indelible image. It's become kind of a meme format. ...Here's the moment where everything went wrong and could have gone differently."
• General clubhouse empathy: players, manager, and staff supported Kerkering in the dugout postgame.
• Ben and Meg reflect on Phillies’ future roster changes, possible “end of an era” framing, and the dangers and mercy of baseball memory.

The Human Impact: ‘Goats’ and Redemption

[19:47–30:45]

Personalizing the Error

• Meg shares thoughts on the weight of public mistakes, contrasting this with the everyday embarrassments people harbor.
• Kerkering’s moment is acknowledged as both intensely personal and unavoidably public—potentially the “first paragraph of his obituary,” as Ben says.

Quotes & Highlights

• Ben [21:16]: "This guy a second ago was a perfectly fine major league reliever, and now he's the guy who made the Orion Kerkering play. And that's just unfair."
• Discussion of past 'goats'—Bill Buckner, Donny Moore, others—as cautionary tales for legacy and empathy.
• Meg contextualizes Philly fandom: "I don't want to assume a nastiness on the part of Philly sports fans... it was so human that even the fans ...can find moments of compassion."
• Both hosts emphasize how relatable such a blunder is: "This is the thing. ...We could do this." [27:41]

Team Response

• “To a person,” players and coaches rallied around Kerkering, taking ownership (sometimes excessively) and trying to focus on the team rather than one individual.
• Ben [28:35]: "Rob Thompson pulled him aside and I don't know exactly what he said in his ear, but you could imagine the general gist of it. And that was nice."

Legacy, Culture, and the Need for ‘Goats’ in Baseball

[32:39–39:07]

• Ben debates Vin Scully’s wish for “heroes but not goats,” and whether the sport would be diminished if such infamous moments could be erased.
• Goats and heroes are part of the drama and folklore of baseball; excising pain would make the story less rich, even if more humane.
• Ben [36:46]: "If we could strike that from the record, I would be inclined to just out of humanity, ...but I do feel like there would be some loss ...You do have to have the goats in addition to the heroes."
• Meg notes you can’t make baseball error-proof: "We're as devastating error proof as we're gonna be."

Recapping Additional Playoff Action

[43:19–51:40]

• Dodgers’ bullpen dominance, with special praise for Roki Sasaki’s emergence despite control issues.
• Cubs rout Brewers to tie the series; big home runs from Michael Busch and Kyle Tucker, and a strong rebound performance from pitcher Boyd.
• Odd playoff decisions: “Why bunting?” Meg riffs on the outdatedness and etymology of the bunt.

Pitch Tipping, Technology, and Paranoia in the Playoffs

[53:23–65:24]

• Rising paranoia around pitch tipping, described as an “arms race” fueled by HD cameras, AI, and advanced scouting tools.
• Ben recaps a recent Athletic article on the subject and expresses skepticism about the on-field impact.
  • Ben [56:53]: "It's one thing to tell a hitter what's coming. It's another thing to communicate that in a way that is not distracting or disruptive, and for the hitter to actually make use of that information."
• Increasing complexity of countermeasures: hitters and pitchers now fake tells, leading to recursive layers of gamesmanship.
• Meg observes: "The suggestion that they are tipping seems to profoundly unsettle [pitchers] in a way that ...is worth intervening on, even if the marginal effect...is quite small." [62:20]
• Segue into pitchcom device malfunctions—are there really more errors, or is it gamesmanship to buy time in noisy, high-stakes playoff settings?

Technology & Training: Trajekt Effects and Home/Road Splits

[69:20–76:02]

• Discussion of advanced pitching machines (Trajekt Arc): are teams gaining meaningful in-game advantage at home due to better pre-game simulation tools?
• Ben presents the absence of clear evidence for a 'Trajekt Effect' in home/road splits, despite anecdotal endorsements from players.
• Both agree that hitters swear by these machines, but the data is elusive.

Hot Stove Preview: Munetaka Murakami to MLB

[78:47–80:56]

• Yakult Swallows plan to post Munetaka Murakami—prolific young Japanese slugger likely to prompt a major league bidding war.
  • Ben [78:59]: "He's going to get a big deal. ...It's exciting to have probably the top guy coming over just being a big beefy slugger."
  • Meg notes his imposing physique and resume should translate well to MLB power numbers.

MLB Broadcast Consolidation and Revenue Sharing Rumblings

[80:56–89:26]

• Ben and Meg break down recent public support from Dodgers and Red Sox executives for a centralized MLB broadcast/media rights package.
• Discussion of the challenges ahead: balancing large-market and small-market interests, owner's CBA dynamics, and the complicated impact on fan access.
• Meg is skeptical but sees some optimism: "I do think there is like a fan access question here that isn't just we want to have centralized revenue in a way that will give us a cudgel to use against the players."

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On empathy for Orion Kerkering:

  • "It's just … so relatable. … There but for the grace of God and athletic talent, totally go I." —Ben [39:07]
  • "Maybe it comes back around for him. Maybe this endears him to them in a weird way because it is so human." —Meg [27:52]

• On the need for negative legends in baseball folklore:

  • "I do feel like there would be some loss to the total entertainment value of baseball just because you have those reference points. … You have to have the goats in addition to the heroes." —Ben [36:46]

• Classic Meg tangent on compassion and trivial memory:

  • "It's the time in middle school that you were unkind to your lab partner. … It's wild to know that about a stranger." —Meg [20:26]

• On Phillies continuity and future:

  • "This team has been on the upswing… I think it certainly doesn't seem to me as if this is the death knell for the Phillies." —Ben [12:10]

• On the 'Trajekt' effect:

  • "I remain curious about that and in search of confirmation of a traject effect. Yes, indeed." —Ben [75:52]

• On endless baseball and the human toll:

  • "I longed for the release of death. But I am glad that it did not come so that I could see that...I'm quite overwhelmed by this team advancing to the cs." —Meg (postscript voice memo after Mariners' epic victory) [91:15]

Special Segment: Meg’s Postgame Mariners Reaction

[91:15]

Meg, emotionally drained and slightly tipsy, provides an impromptu voice memo after the Mariners’ 15-inning win over the Tigers—relief, disbelief, gratitude for Jorge Polanco, and a recognition of baseball’s unique drama: “I don't know if this is even good radio except that it involved the Mariners winning...Sunshine and Lollipops and I don't know on Toronto.”

Key Timestamps for Major Discussion Topics

• 00:37 — Patreon playoff live stream scheduling announcement
• 04:15 — Reaction to Kerkering’s error and Phillies clubhouse dynamics
• 19:47 — Personal fallout and “3am” thoughts on mistakes
• 28:35 — Teammates’ immediate response to Kerkering
• 32:39 — Should baseball folklore include ‘goats’?
• 43:19 — Dodgers’ and Brewers/Cubs series recaps
• 53:23 — Pitch-tipping technology and paranoia in playoffs
• 69:20 — Impact of Trajekt machines and evaluating their real-world effect
• 78:47 — Munetaka Murakami’s upcoming MLB posting
• 80:56 — MLB broadcast negotiations and fan accessibility
• 91:15 — Meg’s Mariners ALDS Game 5 reaction memo

Conclusion & Tone

Ben and Meg deliver characteristic warmth, wit, and analytical rigor infused with empathy for the all-too-human players who define—and sometimes haunt—baseball history. The episode is equal parts statistics, sociology, and personal therapy, a testament to why baseball's greatest moments (and mistakes) resonate far beyond the field.

For further reference, see:

• Phillies-Dodgers NLDS highlights
• Roki Sasaki’s postseason debut
• Murakami’s NPB stats
• Details and discussions of MLB’s ongoing local broadcast negotiations

Effectively Wild remains ad-free and listener-supported—visit Patreon for bonus content and playoff live stream access.