Effectively Wild Episode 2389: Max Effort

Summary

Effectively Wild Episode 2389: Max Effort

A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Hosts: Ben Lindbergh & Meg Rowley
Release Date: October 18, 2025

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Overview:

This episode of Effectively Wild provides a blend of stat-based postseason baseball analysis, live fan reactions (as Meg nervously watches the Mariners in real time), and big-picture discussions about intense personalities in baseball, the shifting line between starters and relievers, the challenges of modern fandom, and the enduring frustrations around postseason media presentation. The hosts critique team strategies, question the culture around high-strung pitcher behavior, and capture the emotional rollercoaster of playoff baseball with humor, candor, and a touch of exasperation.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. Mariners-Blue Jays Series Anxiety & Mascot Drama

• Live Anxiety: Meg is extremely on edge as the Mariners prepare for a crucial playoff game against the Blue Jays, cracking jokes about ritual mascot sacrifices to appease the baseball gods.
  • “I might be laying out a multi step plan to find and kill Humpy.” — Meg (01:13)
• Mascot “Humpy” as Scapegoat: The fanbase swings from loving to blaming their mascot for bad luck, highlighting the irrational rituals fans embrace during tense playoff moments.
  • “It's not a sacrifice if you hate Humpy. It's only a sacrifice if you love Humpy.” — Meg (01:46)

2. Mariners’ Pitching Uncertainties

• Brian Wu’s Status: Discussion around the confusion over Wu’s availability post-injury and the challenges the 15-inning game created for Seattle’s pitching plans.
  • “I am kind of confused by the status of Wu… can he pitch at all? Is it less stressful to pitch in relief…?” — Ben (03:01)
• Pitching Plan Chaos: How injuries and long extra-inning games disrupt carefully laid out rotation and bullpen strategies.

3. Brewers’ and Dodgers’ Playoff Pitching Deployments

• Jacob Misiorowski’s Role: Celebratory comments on Misiorowski’s breakout, his unique emotional presence on the mound, and the Brewers’ heavy reliance on starting pitchers as relievers.
  • On Misiorowski's mound presence: “He has this goofy, happy face… I just appreciate there being a range in the departing mound face”— Meg (09:01)
• Starter vs. Reliever Lines Blurred: Ben questions whether the traditional divisions between starting pitchers and relievers still have meaning in modern postseason baseball.
  • “Maybe I'm just making too much of these almost arbitrary distinctions now between the categories of pitcher.” — Ben (10:17)
• Failed Opener Strategies: Both hosts express growing skepticism about the effectiveness of bullpen openers in the playoffs:
  • “I feel like the openers have not really worked… Even when they have won the game.” — Meg (11:49)

4. Offense: Bluing Bats and Attributing Blame

• Brewers Can't Hit: Milwaukee’s offensive struggles are dissected—strong pitching, but “their bats have just disappeared.”
  • “Brewers pitching has delivered. Dodgers pitching has been better… but it's the brewers bats that have just disappeared”— Ben (12:52)
• Is It Pitcher Brilliance or Bad Approach?: The age-old question; was Max Scherzer really that good, or did the Mariners help him out?
  • “Was Max Scherzer really great or was there a problem with the Mariners approach… It's always hard for me to say that.” — Ben (14:52)

5. Max Scherzer and the Culture of Competitive Rage

• Scherzer’s “Must-Win” Mentality: Scherzer himself says, “Every game in the postseason's a must win. Every game, every game is a must win.” (15:55)
• Managing Intensity: Both hosts debate the acceptability of Scherzer’s intense, occasionally abrasive persona and its workplace implications.
  • “If this is what you are comfortable displaying where everyone can see, like what are you behaving like behind the scenes?” — Meg (23:21)
  • “You are a future hall of Famer… but some amount of emotional rage toward your co-workers... that's not unreasonable to ask of you.” — Meg (24:21)
• Generational/Cultural Shift: Scherzer as a relic of an earlier era, with modern baseball “largely rendered a judgment” that most don't behave this way anymore.
  • “We know him and that was in character for him…” — Ben (18:43)
  • “I don't see young starters doing this.” — Meg (32:41)

6. On-Field Celebrations, Boundaries, and Changing Norms

• Discussion on the evolving balance between celebratory emotion and disrespect, with both hosts expressing preference for excitement directed at oneself, rather than opponents.
  • “You get to be excited. You get to celebrate your achievement… I'm excited for me. I'm not being an asshole to you.” — Meg (34:26)
  • Ongoing negotiation as MLB’s player population changes.

7. Postseason Media Frustrations and the Oppo Taco Inquisition

• Radio & TV Ad Repetition: Meg, speaking as “Reg Mowley,” vents about repeated mid-broadcast “definitions” of the term “oppo taco” and a clumsy Mike Piazza/9-11 tribute running every inning break.
  • “Why am I having to listen to John Smoltz talk about the...lack of value of the home run, when...I am watching the Blue Jays hit home runs against the Mariners.” — Meg (41:21)
  • “I never want to see an oppo taco ever again in my life.” — Meg (48:48)

8. The Dodgers’ Likeability and the Core 4 Yankees Parallel

• Are the Dodgers the New Yankees?: Extended debate about whether the current Dodgers, with star-powered free agents and trade acquisitions, will be resented as much as the dynastic Yankees teams—concluding that dominance, not “likability,” earns eventual enmity.
  • “You’re just going to find a reason to dislike the team that spends the most money and is really good…” — Meg (60:52)
  • “They’re hateable now...even if you don’t hate Shohei Ohtani or Mookie Betts or Freddie Freeman.” — Ben (65:02)

9. Trade Rumors: Tapping Into Fan & Front Office Logic

• Speculation on Tarek Skubal’s Future:
  • With the Tigers’ ace one year from free agency and a Boris client, would the team trade him if an extension can’t be reached? Both agree it’s unlikely unless the team falters early in 2026 and finishing competitively matters more.
  • “I would hate to see this offseason be dominated by Tarek Skubal trade rumors. I would avoid that at all costs. Whatever it costs to sign Tarek Skubal...you gotta keep him.” — Ben (77:28)
  • “I’d be really shocked. I just don’t imagine that’s likely to be a priority for them.” — Meg (79:43)

10. Real-Time Mariners Playoff Meltdown & Joy

• Live Reaction Thread: Meg narrates in real time through much of the episode’s end, her mood oscillating with in-game events—frustration, exclamations, and statistical asides about Mariners’ and individual player performance.
• Livestream Highlights:
  • Ben and Meg’s live reactions to major postseason homers, especially Shohei Ohtani’s historic performance (3 HR, 6 IP, 10 K in NLCS) and Mariners heroics.
  • Examples:
    • “Did he get all of it? There it goes. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.” — Meg on Eugenio Suárez's grand slam (91:06)
    • “That’s ridiculous... It’s so messed up.” — Ben on Ohtani’s third home run (92:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker/Context | |-----------|-------|-----------------| | 01:13 | “I might be laying out a multi step plan to find and kill Humpy.” | Meg, joking about mascot jinxes pregame | | 09:01 | “He has this goofy, happy face... I just appreciate there being a range in the departing mound face.” | Meg, on Jakub Misiorowski | | 15:55 | “Every game in the postseason's a must win. Every game, every game is a must win.” | Max Scherzer, reported by Ben | | 41:21 | “Why am I having to listen to John Smoltz talk about the lack of value of the home run when...I am watching the Blue Jays hit home runs against the Mariners?” | Meg/Reg, on TV broadcast | | 48:48 | “I never want to see an oppo taco ever again in my life.” | Meg, on repeated radio ad segments | | 65:02 | “They're hateable now. I don't think they're any less hateable if they repeat... even if they're likable.” | Ben, on the 2025 Dodgers | | 91:06 | “Did he get it? Did he get all of it? Did he get all of it? There it goes. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.” | Meg, reacting to Suárez's grand slam | | 92:59 | “That’s ridiculous... It’s so messed up.” | Ben, on Ohtani's third home run |

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Notable Segments & Timestamps

• 00:43–06:44: Live playoff nerves, Mariners and mascot superstitions
• 09:00–13:00: Misiorowski, mound emotion, and deployment of pitching staff
• 15:10–25:30: Scherzer, "must-win" mentality, and the culture of playoff intensity
• 34:30–38:00: Modern on-field celebration vs. disrespect boundaries
• 41:20–50:00: Broadcast frustration: oppo taco ads and 9/11 promos
• 54:00–67:00: Dodgers’ construction, likability, and Yankees parallels
• 70:00–87:22: Tarek Skubal's pending free agency, value, and trade rumors
• 89:00–93:03: Real-time livestream reaction highlights: Mariners’ home runs, Ohtani’s NLCS dominance

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Tone & Style

The episode is breezy, humorous, self-deprecating, and emotionally honest. Technical statistical analysis is interwoven with raw, candid fan reactions, especially as Meg’s Mariners play. Both hosts bring insight, empathy for the agony/ecstasy of fandom, and a sense of fun—even when questioning the rationality (or sanity) of their own feelings.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

• If you love postseason strategy analysis:
  • Insight into evolving pitching roles, the tension between analytics and lived baseball realities, and in-game decision-making.
• If you’re a fan in the postseason blender:
  • Meg’s real-time anxiety and coping rituals (including fake mascot sacrifice) will ring true.
• If you’ve grumbled about baseball’s TV/radio experience:
  • Their “Oppo Taco” rant is cathartic and hilarious.
• If you’re pondering the state of superstar culture:
  • The “Max Scherzer Intensity Debate” and Dodger/Yankee comparisons dig into leadership, likability, and why winners eventually get hated.

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Listen For

• Great quips about mascots, the power (and limits) of magical thinking, and the eternal struggle between nerves, hope, and baseball’s randomness.
• The best podcast encapsulation of “why do I keep watching this, it might kill me, but I can’t look away.”
• Rare: Honest self interrogation about why we “let” some players’ behavior slide and others not.

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In Sum

A rich, funny, and vulnerable episode that covers the tactical, cultural, and personal sides of October baseball, showcasing what makes Effectively Wild a longtime favorite among baseball obsessives and anxious, superstitious fans everywhere.

Transcript

[Meg Rowley]

Keep you company. They'll keep you sane on a long bike ride or a slow workday. Making bandwagon battle playoff race. Who's bats hard? It's Effectively Wild. So stick around. You'll be well beguiled.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Hello and welcome to episode 2389 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs, presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer, joined by Meg Rowley of fangraphs. Hello, Mickey.

[Meg Rowley]

Hi.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Speaking to Meg in the moments before a consequential game between the Mariners and Blue Jays. Depending on how things go, you might even get live gameplay.

[Meg Rowley]

Just as we get live game. You're going to get life next time. You're going to get. You're going to get live gameplay and it's going to be completely rational. It's going to be sober. It's going to be. I mean, both in. In terms of its potential influences and also its tone. I might be laying out a multi step plan to find and kill Humpy. I just, I'm.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Look, public sentiment has really turned on Humpy.

[Meg Rowley]

We.

[Ben Lindbergh]

We talked about this yesterday, but suddenly Mariner's friends are demanding ritual sacrifices.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, we gotta find him.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And he was a hero just a few days ago.

[Meg Rowley]

No, he. Look, he is a hero. This isn't Humpy's fault. Sometimes the. The gods demand a sacrifice of us. It's not a sacrifice if you hate Humpy. It's only a sacrifice if you love Humpy. If you have a humpy plushie that was sent to you as a kind, caring gift from a friend. And yet here you are saying, look.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Does it have to be the actual Humpy? Couldn't you just. Maybe.

[Meg Rowley]

I'm not suggesting we killed a person inside of Humpy.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, wow, you're breaking the fourth wall here. There's a person inside Humpy? Yeah, I mean like pretending that this was an actual salmon sort of being. But you could you able to swim.

[Meg Rowley]

If he was an actual salmon, that's true.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He probably wouldn't need the life preserver or the floaties, but probably not. You could just burn your Humpy plushie in effigy maybe.

[Meg Rowley]

Oh, that was a gift.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, okay then. Come on. Well, it does seem as if suddenly sentiment has turned in. In the direction of we need to do something to change the trajectory of this series and that something is ritually sacrificing our beloved mascot.

[Meg Rowley]

I mean, the other option would be seeing if Brian Wu can pitch, but like that appears to not be an option on offer. And so Yeah, I don't know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

This may become clear after we record, but I am kind of confused by the status of Wu in the series because when he was restored to the roster after having missed the division series, I assumed that he would be starting a game because why else would you have him on the roster or what would you want him to do? And then Miller started game one and of course that worked out quite well for the. So, so that's okay. Cuz that would have been the obvious time to slot Wooin if he could go. And so the fact that he couldn't, that he didn't draw that assignment suggested, I suppose, that he was not up to starting. But if he's not up to starting because of the pec injury or the recovery from the pec injury, then can he pitch at all? Like, is it less stressful to pitch in relief or is it he's just still recovering or, or what?

[Meg Rowley]

I. So okay, so. Okay. So my sense, my guess, my. My guess is that tonight, tonight being Friday, we are recording this before the game starts. The game starts in what, like 45 minutes? A little more. Bryce Miller is starting this game.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

And I could imagine a scenario where Brian Wu pitches part of it. You know, I. Yeah, I think the original plan before the 15 inning game kind of threw the beginning of the CS into chaos. From a pitching plan perspective, I think that the original plan was for, for Bryce Miller on more regular rest and Brian Wu to piggyback the first game or perhaps the second game. But then everyone threw, everyone had to throw. Luis Castillo had to throw and Logan Gilbert had to throw and everything is like a bonanza. And so I imagine that we will see, we will see Brian Wu tonight, assuming things are going okay. I also think that like the Mariners need to explore their legal options because I feel like this rule that like only the, the Blue Jays can really mount an offense after the third inning that feels like it's working against them, you know? Yeah, I know that the, the courts are on skeleton crew because of the shutdown, but surely this merits some sort of immediate injunction.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, or maybe it could be a class action and the brewers bats could get on, get in on that.

[Meg Rowley]

No, I don't think you want that vibe coming into your vibe. They gotta, they gotta sort out their own vibe. They have their own sacrifices to make, their own gods to appease. I think it'. Yeah, I think it's more cheese based is. Is my sense. Or maybe the barrel man has to go. The barrel man and Bernie Brewer hang like not again. I'm mostly talking about the people inside the costumes. Anyway, the reality is that, you know, their project is to win two more games. That was their project on Wednesday.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

Now it's a little bit more.

[Ben Lindbergh]

There's a little more urgency. Yes.

[Meg Rowley]

Of a project, but the project remains the same. I don't feel great, and I'm trying to decide how much of that is rational versus not. I know that I feel better than a Brewers fan does right now, and that's. That's quite rational, as these things go. I do want to highlight for a moment, boy, Jacob Mizorowski, what a. What a performance yesterday. You know, I enjoy watching him so much. I appreciate that. Like, you know, there was this huge hype, and then there's the All Star Game controversy, and then he faded in a way that rookies can, particularly when they throw a million miles an hour.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. And there was some physical stuff, and there was also just a lot of keeping him on very strict limits and, you know, innings counts and just not wanting to use him seemingly. And so I don't know whether that was a product of him not being 100% or whether him not being 100% was partly a product of the way that his usage was restricted, because I'm always suspicious of, do we actually know anything when it comes to protecting pitchers? And, you know, the younger you are, the more accepting I am of, yes, let's be careful and err on the side of caution, especially if you throw a million miles an hour. But it did get to a point where I'm thinking, like, you know, use him. Right? Use him or lose him. Or you're worried that if you do use him, you will lose him, but now you're. You're losing him, essentially by not using him. But I guess the argument would be, well, we're preserving him October so that he could do what he is doing right now.

[Meg Rowley]

Right. And that has gone very well. I also, we've maybe talked about this with. With respect to the Miz in particular, but just in general, you know, I know that there are a lot of, like, emotional faces that pitchers in particular display as they are exiting the mound. And they are excited, they are proud, they are relieved sometimes. But a lot of the.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The.

[Meg Rowley]

The base facial expression for many of these guys is like one of aggression, one of anger, and that's fine. Like, there's a place for the. Like.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That place is on the mound when Max Roger is pitching.

[Meg Rowley]

I enjoy that. I enjoy it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

And I. And I want to say I called the potential for that, I called the potential yesterday.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I doubted him.

[Meg Rowley]

And I was like, that's dangerous. That's dangerous. And you're not even. I don't even know how, like podcast hosts, co hosts of fans, fits into the realm of magic. Again, the rules there seem very arbitrary. It's almost like it's not real. But one thing I enjoy about Misterowski, and this isn't true of him, every time he exits the mound, but very often when he exits the mound and something has gone well for him, an inning has gone the way he wants, he has this, like this goofy, happy face.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

And I just appreciate there being, you know, a range in, in the, in the departing mound face, you know, because a lot of them are either dour.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Or, again, such a stocking off the mound. Yeah, the Miz is skipping. He's exuberant.

[Meg Rowley]

Skipping. Yeah, he is exuberant. And he, you know, he is so fresh faced. And so that's part of it too, is that he just, he reads young because he is young and he is smiley. I just enjoy that. If only he could hit. You know, that's been.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I've, I've talked about just how reliant teams have been, especially the Dodgers, even the brewers and some others on starters pitching in relief. And maybe it's just that the distinction between starter and reliever has just completely broken down. So Mizrowski, for instance, has not started a game in these playoffs, but he's been the bulk guy. And effectively that is the same. I mean, it's a different sequence. He doesn't get a game started, but he's the guy who's pitching more innings. And it's odd in retrospect, given how well he's pitched. You'd think, well, why, why not just start the guy? Just slot him into the rotation. Clearly he's one of the best pitchers you have, but I guess there are reasons. There are potential advantages to using an opener, which did not manifest themselves in game three with Ashby, but still, on paper, there's something to that idea. And who knows, maybe him coming out of the bullpen, different mentality, different pressure, different prep. I don't know. Clearly it, it has suited him. But the brewers are, are using, you know, between him and Patrick, they're, they're using a couple of their best pitchers in relief. And maybe I'm just making too much of these almost arbitrary distinctions now between the categories of, of pitcher. I think part of it also is that relievers just are not used on back to back days and consecutive games. And days the way that they were even just a few years ago, really. And so if your actual relievers just cannot be used as much in a short series, then you're almost by default going to have to press some starters into service. And then you also have some teams, namely the Dodgers, who just had a surplus of starting pitchers, and so they lent themselves to that, plus the weak pen combination. So there are a number of reasons why that's happened. But, yeah, you see, you know, the brewers, it's just every day who's starting. I don't know. We'll find out when the game begins, basically. But then they bring in this completely unhittable guy with all the wipe pitches just after the opener, and you're thinking, oh, I see. Well, this could have been their ace level starter who was just starting. But no, everything is more complicated now.

[Meg Rowley]

I feel like the openers have not really worked. Even when they have won the game. I've sometimes wondered if they're really being deployed to optimal effect. I mean, they haven't won any games in this round. I'm aware of that fact. But, you know, they've had to sort of piece it together this whole playoffs. And so, I don't know. I've just been. I've just been wondering. But this is a place where not the opener piece of it, but the specific deployment of Mizrowski, where I'm willing to grant that, like, we just have imperfect knowledge of the way that they've decided is the best to set him up for success. And, you know, whatever I might think of the particular execution of the openers, like his results, Mizarowski's results have been quite good. And so if this is the way to sort of buoy him or what have you, then okay, again, like, the. The biggest issue that they have is the able to hit.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, Brewer's pitching has been fine. They've held the Dodgers to 10 runs in three games.

[Meg Rowley]

In three games.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You'd absolutely sign up for that coming into this series, you know, and you'd expect that. Okay, if we actually do that, we will have won at least one of those games, you would hope. And so brewers pitching has delivered. Dodgers pitching has been better, of course. And we have sung the praises of Blake Snell and Yamamoto, and Glass now wasn't quite as good, but was solid. But you. You would think that brewers pitching has held up its end of the bargain, and it's the brewers bets that have just disappeared in combination with the Dodgers dealing. And that's always a difficult thing to apportion the credit or blame there and Right. I've been thinking about that in the AL series too. In the past couple games as the Mariners have gone quiet. Was Max Scherzer really great or was there a problem with the Mariners approach, which was what Joshian suggested and in his newsletter, that they should have been really beating up on some pitches and they just weren't. And he was getting tons of whiffs on curveballs, which is not something that he had been doing prior to that. And so it seemed like maybe their approach was backward, but then maybe that's a testament to Max just managing to dial it up a little bit and, and be his vintage self. So it's, it's always hard for me to say that, yeah, that was purely just the pitching being good because it's so hard to hit and so much of it is just reactive that I'm less inclined to say that it was a problem of approach because yes, there can be an approach. Of course, the Blue Jays have been aggressive and they've been open about that. Yeah, you give us something to hit the first few pitches, we're going to swing and you can say let's eliminate certain pitches and let's look to feast on fastballs or, you know, whatever it is. But then it's, it's hard. Like those best laid plans can go awry if, if the pitcher just does well, it just like pitches well and confuses you and makes some pitches look like other pitches. It's not infallible to say, yes, we will just take that pitch off the table and we will swing at these hittable pitches. Well, right. Way easier said than done.

[Meg Rowley]

So, yeah, it's, it's hard to know. I mean, it doesn't help when you're like getting picked off first base.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, yes, I did mean to mention the Max Scherzer quote because I, I took Jeff Passon and others to task for overusing the term must win game in a non elimination game. Well, in his pre game press conference before his game, Max Scherzer, he went even further. Max Scherzer said every game in the postseason's a must win. Every game, every game is a must win. And we, we know what he means. Obviously it's important, but that's the ultimate inflation of October. Must win. Every game in the postseason's a must win.

[Meg Rowley]

I, I want to be careful not to psychoanalyze someone I don't know. And I, I, I think one of the more frustrating things for me about the Mariners performance over the last two games As a fan of the team, is that like, I just really do like this Blue Jays team a lot. Yeah, I don't really dislike anyone on this Blue Jays team. You know, I could have imagined a matchup where I would have felt like a moral victory at yelling at some. I don't even have that feeling. It's really. I'm just despondent. I'm gonna mute people I like on social media because they don't mean to be annoying. I'm annoyable right now. I recognize this is a personal failure.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Which is why, yeah, they're just being ritually sacrifice them. Much like no, I'm humpty.

[Meg Rowley]

But I do need a reminder from someone in like a week to go back and unmute them because I will want to hear from them again. Just not right now. Anyway, the thing about Max Scherzer, and I do again feel odd psychoanalyzing someone I don't know is like, I wonder what that man is going to do when he's done playing baseball. Because it's not like the capacity he has for intensity is just going to dissipate, you know, like, is he going to find fulfillment in the HOA board? Probably not. Well, that guy going to do with himself? I do wonder.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He has been a players association leadership figure, so perhaps he could channel this into being at the bargaining table. Just like yelling at Rob Benford across the table.

[Meg Rowley]

I love that because like, I think, you know, you want to be careful in how you describe these things. I don't think that Scherzer, for all our joking, right, for all of John Schneider's joking yesterday after him being, you know, that he was worried he was going to kill him, you know, tried to take him off the mound. I don't think that Scherzer would actually engage in like physical violence toward another person. And it's hard to find amusement in that. But I do find something darkly funny about the, the image of him just like looming over Rob and Fred in the context of a labor negotiation robbing.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I don't think I'm enjoying this particularly much. Yeah, I was thinking about that too. So Max Scherzer did bring must win game energy to that start. And, and maybe it's just that when you reach a, a certain age and all the 40 somethings were, were showing out on Thursday while the Aaron Rodgers Joe Flacco duel was going on, Max Scherzer was delivering. And maybe it's. He had three weeks off, right? Maybe, maybe that's the secret to success. If they could just have him start every few weeks.

[Meg Rowley]

So that means Brian Wu should start the rest of the postseason games for the Mariners.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Maybe so. Or maybe it doesn't work that way when you're in your 20s. But. But yeah, you know, that was kind of a throwback, right? Not exactly vintage. It wasn't like peak Max. I mean, he walked a bunch of guys and everything, but he was getting some whiffs and he was throwing a little bit harder. And maybe those aches and pains subsided because he had this extended break, which is not something you could really routinely do during a regular season. I mean, I guess, I guess you could if, if the contract were the appropriate size. I mean, we've seen the sort of Roger Clemens model of come back in an extended age late in your career and pitch half a season or something and warm up late. Maybe you could have that for a 40 something pitcher who's just like, yeah, I'll give you one good start a month maybe. But then what are you paying for that? And, and what makes that worth their while and what are they doing in between? But perhaps that helped him. I guess the, the reduced wear and tear may have outweighed whatever rust and worked out in favor of Scherzer. But yeah, there's this indelible image of him barking at Schneider as Schneider was going out there. And I don't know whether Schneider seriously intended to pull him or whether he kind of knew what was going to happen and he was going out there to have a discussion and he was willing to be shouted down and turned around. But that image, when we saw that, when I saw that, I was kind of delighted by it because it's, hey, it's Max being Max. It's a throwback. It's, you know, almost a starter out of a different era demanding to stay in the game, which is generally something I like to see more than we typically see these days. And that's just, we know him and that was in character for him in another context or with another player. That could be behavior that we decry, right? Like this could be some sort of toxic presence. I mean, generally you don't really want people screaming at each other in the workplace. I remember talking about this with Andy McCullough when we had him on to talk about his Clayton Kershaw bio. And he was talking about how Clayton Kershaw just transforms into this wild man on his start days. And, and this even happens with, say, mild mannered Rich Hill. And there are certain guys who just get super intense and everyone knows not to talk to them and not to bother them. And I think I said at the time, like, okay, clearly that has worked for Kershaw, but is there an element of this that this is just, like, different rules apply? And, you know, that's how it is in baseball. That's how it is in all walks of life. If you're a star, maybe you're going to be treated a bit differently, but the whole, like, I am a genius at my thing, and so I get extra leeway and everyone will tiptoe around me. And is that essential to your success? Are you thriving? Are you great at your craft because you're stalking around and you're yelling at people or no one can talk to you, or is that sort of an affectation or performative, or is it not really essential? Like, yeah, you have to hype and psych yourself up, but does it have to manifest in that form where you. You look like you're a loose cannon who's just going to come undone if someone makes the mistake? The faux pas of talking to you on a start day? Like, you know, I think there's kind of a culture of that that perhaps could stand to be toned down to some extent, but with Scherzer specifically, seems like everyone likes him, and he's a. A leader and he's thoughtful and he's cerebral, and he's not like that all the time. It's just that when he's on the mound and. And as far as I know, he's not snapping and. And actually lashing out at someone physically or. Or this isn't crossing over into bullying or. Or hazing kind of behavior. Plus, you know, he's picking on the manager, which is kind of punching or. Or yelling up in a sense. I mean, he's almost the same age as Schneider, but. But Schneider's like the authority figure. And so I guess the power balance there is kind of difficult to discern because Scherzer has such standing in the game and he's a future hall of Famer and all the rest of it. But also, Schneider is technically his boss, right? And so that's a little bit different than if he were yelling at his peer or a junior or a subordinate or something. So on the whole, I think it's fine. And I'm also sort of charmed by it. But also, if it were someone else or in a different situation, then probably we'd be like, hey, you know, maybe consider cooling it, buddy.

[Meg Rowley]

I think that part of it is. And look, I do want to try to separate my frustration from manifesting in a particular game because of what it portended for the team that I wanted to win versus not from my sort of actual analysis of it. I do think that part of what we worry about when we see that kind of behavior is like, if this is what you are comfortable displaying where everyone can see, like what are you behaving like behind the scenes. And I think that we've had, you know, sufficient testimony to his character beyond sort of how he is on a start day. I do think that it's fine to say, you know, you are a future hall of Famer and you are, you know, made better by your intensity. And also, you know, this surely isn't the only way that that intensity can manifest and some amount of emotional reg toward your co workers, even if it is to a superior, that's not like an unreasonable thing to ask of you.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right? Yeah. Plus you're, you're a veteran, you're a leader. You're modeling behavior for. And these aren't toddlers or something, you know, it's not like they're imprinting on Max User and they're going to do exactly what he does. But yeah, especially if, if you're a union leader and you're a team leader and all the rest of it, then maybe you want to set an example of a little less rageful. But yeah, I guess, yeah, it's mitigating circum because it's this game and it's this guy.

[Meg Rowley]

Right. And I do think that like it, it washes over you a little differently within the context of, you know, a crucial. Maybe crucial is a better way to, to phrase it than must win, but a crucial postseason game rather than, you know, just like some regular season start in July or whatever. I think we can appreciate that everyone is operating at a, at a higher emotional register in a, you know, a game.

[Ben Lindbergh]

4.

[Meg Rowley]

It's not maybe must win, but it's as close to without being technically must win for them. Like if you go down three, one, that's, that's rough sledding ahead. Right? So I can appreciate why it would inspire the kind of feeling that it does. But I, you know, I think it's fine for us to say, hey, like you're a grown ass man, you know, and, and you're clear. And he's clearly capable of more normal interpersonal dynamics, which is why we are on some level like willing to kind of give him a pass. But also like, hey, that means that you can, you can tone it down a little bit, you know, and, and I also, what I Also, having said that would. Would offer that I'm always a little unsure what the right amount of, of intervention is in a social dynamic I'm not a participant in. Right. Like, I think that there are all kinds of ways to relate to people interpersonally that I would find inappropriate or distasteful that aren't problematic. And so, like, other people get to have their interpersonal ways, you know, and that's not necessarily my business. Having said that, like, this is, this is interpersonal behavior that we all witness. And I do think that Scherzer has like a, you know, he is so revered within the game and for very good reasons that you kind of wonder. But then it's like, are you being a bummer? But then it's like sometimes, you know, you gotta be a little bit of a bummer. So I don't know, it's a, It's a tricky one for me. I. And I do think that it washes over me differently because I have a lot of confidence that like, he is not like hazing rookies or whatever, you know, that he's not like being a dick in other contexts, but like, he is maybe being a little bit of a dick in this context.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. It doesn't seem like people are bothered by it. Even Schneider is joking about it, making light of it. And I guess we wouldn't necessarily know if people were genuinely bothered by it.

[Meg Rowley]

Because, because he's so revered, who's going to be the person to say, I don't like this?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right. Is some young guy gonna come out, speak publicly about it? Probably not. Right. So you never know. And so I want to be cautious about that. But, but as long as he's not actively picking fights, like if it's just, hey, leave me alone on this day, you know, I'm not going to be in the mood to chat.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That's okay. As long as you set that expectation and you're not going out of your way to explode at people. And as long as you make some accommodations, like, you know, if someone says something completely innocuous to you or is not familiar with the rules of your start day or something, don't. Don't bite their heads off. But if that's just how you function and excel and it's not harming anyone, then that's okay. And it seems like, at least from the public comments, that players basically treat it like that, you know, that's Max being Max, and it's sort of funny and quirky and that's that. But yeah, you never know. Right. So I guess. And it's not a normal workplace in any number of ways. It's not a normal workplace. Just the makeup, the demographics of the employees, the. The teammates, just the pressure on you, the spotlight, the intensity of all of it, the salaries, just.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Everything is so far beyond our Ken, really.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's not like we have the most typical jobs either, but we have. I mean, you know, and we're around the game, obviously, but it's still just difficult to put ourselves in that sort of position. Really. But you don't want to just excuse any kind of behavior on that ground, because that is the thing. Yeah. It's like, you know, lots of toxic workplaces in sports and not in sports. That is trotted out as the excuse. It's like, well, the normal rules don't apply to this because of this circumstance. In that circumstance. And no, even if it's an outlier, that doesn't mean that you can't still have some standards. Right.

[Meg Rowley]

And this is what I'm trying to get at. Like, I want to be clear that I'm not comping his behavior on the mound to this. But like, for instance, the practice, which we had said we weren't doing anymore. And then like a lot of other things, we're seeing retrenchment on of having rookies dress funny on the plane. Fine. But they were dressing funny on the plane by dressing as women. And we stopped doing that in part because team social media people were like, hey, look at this funny thing. And we were like, but okay, so like, the five of this actually kind of sucks. And like, you have female employees and you're like, denigrating them by making them women. And so then what do you think of women? And like, we were. We weren't doing it anymore. Yeah. And now apparently we are, and we shouldn't. I would prefer we not do that. Like, we don't have to. We can pretend that the world will be different three years from now anyway. All of that. To say, like, that is a behavior and a workplace ritual that took place away from the purview of the public for a long time. And I would still have said isn't great. And that the league has a vested interest in saying you can. You can do a little light hazing of rookies. You can make them dress up funny. You can't make them dress up funny in this way. Right. Like, this is a bad workplace environment to set. You want to make them go to Starbucks in their uniforms. Like, I, I think the hazing thing is like, Weird, but, like, that's largely harmless. But we. So we can have lines around this stuff, even if it isn't our workplace, even if it isn't our culture. And so this is the. This is, like, the thing that you're trying to, like, feel your way through. It's like, it doesn't. Everything doesn't have to be about for me. Everything doesn't have to be to my standard, but we can still have standards. And so you're always trying to feel out where that line is. You know, I do wonder, like, part of this, too, and not that we should, like, you know, grant exemptions or anything, but, like, part of this, too, is, like, Scherzer has just been around for so long, and he came up at a time.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. And he's just, like, a relic from an earlier era.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. I do wonder if there's, like, a bit of a, like, you know, exemption being granted here in terms of our understanding of it. And I don't. You know, we may be part of why we need to be a little less concerned about it than we otherwise would be. And I feel like I. I don't know. I don't know if I want to give him a pass or not. I'm not. I don't find myself bothered by it. So I'm not trying to, like, artificially.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, that's the thing. Lest it seem like we're concerned trolling or excessively fretting or hand wringing, I'm not actually bothered by this. I'm just kind of interrogating, why am I not bothered by this?

[Meg Rowley]

Why am I not bothered by it? And I think that part of why I'm not is that, like, I think that there has been a. Like, the game has already rendered a judgment about how it wants people to behave in this context and has largely seemed to say, nah, like, that's not right. Like, I don't see. I don't see young starters doing this.

[Ben Lindbergh]

No.

[Meg Rowley]

And so I think that's part of why I'm, like, not really all that fussed about it. Because, one, I don't think that it is inherently objectionable behavior because of how precise he is in directing the. The, like, confrontational energy. It's like, it's to his pitching coach, it's to his manager, it's not to other members of his team, you know, subordinate members of the coaching staff. Like, it's that. So there's that piece of it. But also, like, we've answered this question, and he's still pitching. So, like, I don't think you're gonna teach him a new trick necessarily.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's like he personally has not been reformed or sanitized in this respect, but the game as a whole has, and so it's sort of robbed of its power to be bad in a way. It's just, oh, that's him. But he's singular. He's just leftover from that earlier era. It's like a last gasp of that sort of starter mentality, and so it's kind of.

[Meg Rowley]

Of.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's quaint in a way. Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

And I think that, like, one of the things that the game. And we see this across pro sports, right. In. In the men's and women's game, I think that there is this ongoing conversation about, like, how we balance celebration and excitement and, like, genuine expressions of emotion with, like, one upping your opponent. Right. And I. I think that we have had a conversation in baseball that has largely come down along the lines of, like, you get to be excited. You get to celebrate your achievement, and the place where we can still kind of urge you to. To redirect that energy is when it's being. It's being pointed at your opponent. Right. You know, I know that talking is part of the game, and I know that, like, guys, Josh, you know, like, getting on each other as part of the game. I. I don't love it when that gets, like, you know, directed at your opponent. Right. The stare down. Like, I just. It feels tacky to me if you, you know, stride off the mound because you've just gotten a big strikeout and you're pumped and you're pounding your chest and you're going like, yeah, man, go for it. Like, you just did an amazing thing. You. You hit a big home run and you bat flip, and you're, like, directing it at the stands. Go, you know, go with God in a good wind. I don't love it when the guys are, like, kind of being dicks to each other, but I think that they largely aren't, you know, that they largely do a good job of, like, making it clear. I'm excited for me. I'm not being an asshole to you. Sorry for the swear. So, yeah, I think. But, you know, those social boundaries and, like, lines are. Are a constant source of negotiation, and I think they kind of have to be, because the people who are cycling through the game are always changing. Like, it's always. You know, there's some core group that's, like, been in the majors for a long time, but you have new people, and they have new perspectives, and they have, you know, they're younger, like, they, it makes sense that their sort of sense of these things and culture around it might be shifting. So it's never a finished conversation, but I do think it's largely a more generous one and, like, it sort of landed in the right place. And, yeah, like, we will. There are any number of ways in which we will never see another like him, maybe, you know, and so to have a little remnant of this guy, I think is okay, provided he doesn't like, you know, slug John Schneider. I also always have to be really careful because I'm from Seattle and a fan of Seattle sports. John Schneider is also the name of the Seahawks gm. And so sometimes I will tweet about one, and people are like, why don't you like Blue Jays manager? And I'm like, oh, no, I don't have anything to say about his input into the draft. It's fine.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, I, I hope that at least the brewers managed to hit a little bit. You know, I, I, I enjoyed seeing Scherzer's performance. I'm, I'm sorry for your sake that I came at the expense of your team. But, but I have enjoyed the way that the Blue Jays and the brewers seemed to set some of that baggage aside that they were carrying coming into the playoffs. Just the whole, oh, they have underperformed in the postseason, and suddenly their bats disappear and the offense dries up and they make quick exits, or, you know, in the Blue Jays case, they can't win a game. Right. And it's just can't advance and, and they seem to conquer that. The Blue Jays just stomping all over the Yankees in the Division Series round, and then the brewers putting on a show, at least for the first couple games against the Cubs, and, and then managing to stick it out, and it seemed like they had put that behind them.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And then the first couple games of the ALCS went the way they did. Now, the Blue Jays have immediately rebounded from that, much to your dismay, but the brewers have not. And I'd, I'd like them, if they have to go into that good night, I, I'd like them to go a little less gently. I'd like to. Now, you know, it's complicated for me because I would rather that their offensive breakout not come against Shohei Otani specifically, but, you know, if he could pitch pretty well, and then maybe they, they beat up on the bullpen, whoever. Yeah, that, that'd be fine with me. You know, it's, it's hard for me to wish ill upon Shohei, but I do generally wish the opposite of ill against the Brewers. I'd like, like, you know, people will. Will know whether this happened by the time they're listening to this, but I, I'd like it not to be a sweep. I'd like it not to bouncing. I'd like the brewers at least to, to show what they're made of because they're made of very good baseball players.

[Meg Rowley]

I agree.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Pretty good hitters. And you know, their, their offensive weaknesses have been exposed here in the sense that they're not hard hitters. They're not just sluggers. They're more BABIP and speed and, you know, high batting average and just making more than the sum of their parts sort of thing. And, and that's why the Blue Jays, I think, have an edge on them offensively, because the Blue Jays high batting average, even better strikeout rate, but also can really put a. Hurting on. On some pitches and can hit the ball a long way. And that has not been the brewers strength. Obviously they have guys who can hit home runs and sometimes they hit plenty, but they have not done that. And so it has exposed their lack of hard hit balls, their lack of barrels. This was the knock on their offense that they just, you know, they do some things well offensively and then they combine that with, with good defense and good pitching and, and the whole is. Is a very good baseball team. And so I'd like them not to go out looking like less than a very good baseball team because I believe that's what they are.

[Meg Rowley]

I just wish so strongly that Smoltz was on that series instead, because I want. I wonder if maintaining the cognitive dissonance would break his brain in a way that would allow for a breakthrough. Because the brewers are John Smoltz's platonic ideal of an offense. And to be clear, I think that that offense is better than the run production they have mustered against the Dodgers. Having said that, they are on the brink of elimination in part because they have not been able to square up the baseball and they have not been able to hit it hard. And it has been. This thing has been happening to me, Ben, where I imagine a girl, we'll name her Reg Mowley. And let's pretend for a moment that she has an unblacked out MLB TV login. It doesn't matter where it came from. And so she is just. She just watches the games in MLB TV despite it being the postseason, and it's fine and she can overlay without having to worry about syncing or any of this nonsense. The Mariner's radio feud. Let's pretend that that exists. This. This thing has been happening to Reg. Where reliably in the seventh inning, the alternative radio feeds stop working. It's always in the seventh. And I am going to do a big swear and Shane should bleep it. But I want everybody to be ready. I want you to feel the force of this swear coming through the microphone. What the is happening in the seventh? Because here's the deal. I don't mind Joe Davis. I think Joe Davis is a good broadcaster. I think he's plush held a little bit. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Why am I having to listen to John Smoltz talk about the.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The.

[Meg Rowley]

The lack of value of the home run when 1. I am watching the Blue Jays hit home runs against the Mariners in T Mobile, which is hard to do when it's 55 degrees out at first pitch. Never mind what the temperature is when the game is concluding. What. What is happening? What is it about the seventh inning? Is there some trick. Am I like, fooling Is. Sorry, is. Is Reg. Ma.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, right. What a wonderful world it would be if this were you that we were talking.

[Meg Rowley]

If this were me.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

What. What is happening? Why. What is happening to her? What is she doing wrong? What.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

What transgressions has she committed either in this life or a past one that she's then having to listen to?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Anyway, anyway, in this scenario, how many times would Reg have heard the definition of apo taco and have been reminded of a Mike piazza quote after September 11th? It's just an entirely uninteresting quote by Mike Piazza. It's a.

[Meg Rowley]

That's the thing about it. It's not.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's not a good quote. It's a nothing burger. It's just word salads.

[Meg Rowley]

I am. I want to be careful that I'm not, like, being a little insensitive here. I feel like they were like, what is a quote that happened after 9 11? It'll be meaningful to people because of the tragedy. And it's like, sure, but the quote also has to be meaningful. And then you have the dissonance of like, I am meant to have reverence for this quote because of its proximity to tragedy, which, again, I'm not trying to make light of. But then the rest of the ad read is delivered. I don't know who's doing the ad read. I can't tell what gal it is, but in the most upbeat way. And I'm like, what is what is your grand unified theory? This is like. Do you want to hear a crazy expression that I'm about to drop on the podcast? What is your grand unified theory of 911 in this moment, MLB, like, am I meant to be. Am I meant to be coming from a place of like, revenants for lives lost? Or am I supposed to be upbeat at the.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's so unhinged, the nostalgia for when baseball healed the nation or something.

[Meg Rowley]

Right? I. I simp. I could not tell you, Ben. I simply couldn't tell you.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, it's very odd for people who don't know what we're talking about because they're not listening to the radio broadcast. It's. It's the strangest thing that when you listen to the, the Game day audio, the, the Odyssey audio here, it's incredibly repetitive. And we talked about this.

[Meg Rowley]

Unreal.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And we talked about this last postseason too, because we were talking a lot last October about the flickering of the green screened in ads and the overlays there and how distracting that is. And it still is. To be clear, it's. It's not better than it was. They haven't fixed that problem. It still annoys me the fact that when a player is sort of superimposed on the behind the plate advertising, it's just all flickery and, and weird looking.

[Meg Rowley]

And looks kind of in half out, like he's freaking murdered fly and. Yeah, back to the future or something.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Have to figure that out. It still bugs me a lot. I've been less of a broken record about it, but not because the problem has been addressed, but it has. We were complaining about that a lot last postseason and then people were sharing their gripes about the radio broadcast too. So we talked about that also the way that it will sometimes go to the ad break before the inning is over, before the. The broadcasters sign off or return late and miss actual action. But then also the fact that, that between innings you hear the same promos over and over and over every single inning break. It's. It's incredible. It's so strange because you'd, you'd think there are people listening to this. You'd think that they would want to advertise something like.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Or even just promote different products the same. Whatever they're promoting.

[Meg Rowley]

Me long for capitalism in a way that is like completely unreal.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Hinged, like so strange.

[Meg Rowley]

I'm like, please give me a freaking ad. Surely the local plumbers union wants me to know you wish for the sweet.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Release of actual or sweet relief of actual marketing because it could be a nice alternative. So they do this little thing where, oh, let's define a baseball term, but it's. It's oppo taco. Every single.

[Meg Rowley]

Every single time.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's so weird. Like, why are you not weird? I would appreciate it, that exercise. If we were spared advertising because they were familiarizing everyone with the baseball lexicon and there was an actual variety, then that'd be nice. That'd be fun. But it's the same thing over and over and over. We've complained about this before, you know, when on MLB tv, they've shown various clips and highlights, but they show the same ones over and over again. And it's like you could choose from anything in baseball history. You have this. This vast resource. Why am I ever seeing a single repeat, right?

[Meg Rowley]

You have all the clips. You have every single one at your disposal. You do not have to clear rights for them. You can just show us something cool. And there have been, you know, so many cool moments. Why are we hearing the same freaking thing over.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Something to do with some kind of agreements and contracts? And I. It's just. Why would you not want to use this? Plug a product, please.

[Meg Rowley]

Just anything, for the love of God.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Anything will drive you to distraction when it's the same message over and over and over. There was a defector piece about the Piazza quote and the 911 remembrance, but the oppo taco is the strangest thing. I know what an apo taco is. I mean, I knew already, but if I hadn't known, I would know that better than I know anything else in the world. Because my mom's phone number. Number.

[Meg Rowley]

My own Social Security number, like, I, It's.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's incredible. It's just belief real.

[Meg Rowley]

And I, I. And then the other thing about it, Ben, is I don't. This might be a Meg problem or a Reg problem. Excuse me? Like, I. Then I want a choco taco. Every time I hear that ad, I'm like, why am I not eating a choco taco right now?

[Ben Lindbergh]

You know, See, if they segued into a choco taco ad, then that would be capitalism, and that would be at least a little bit of breaking up the oppo taco definition in every single breakdown.

[Meg Rowley]

I still wouldn't have a choco Taco. So maybe I don't want them. But I'm suffering already. I'm. Already, I'm. I'm trapped in a loop, a weird time loop. And then I still don't have ice cream. So maybe it would be better if they just told me about ice cream because then maybe I'd be motivated to, like, go get some. Maybe I'd be like, well, I gotta go get some ice cream.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Somebody's got to get to the bottom of this. And maybe it's me, maybe it's us. Or maybe someone listening right now is familiar with these arrangements and understands why it is done this way. But it. It seems just completely confounding and lazy or. I don't know what it is, but you could. You could use that audio real estate for so many either lucrative or actually beneficial pro social ways. Sure, by all means, promote your product, but not in this way. Which makes me hate everything, everything about it.

[Meg Rowley]

I never want to see an oppo taco ever again in my life.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, I will wake up in a cold sweat hearing the definition of oppo Taco for the 10,000th time. And I'm not even listening to the radio broadcast as much as some people are. So the people who are consuming these games primarily via the posts via radio. Yeah, I pity you. And I pity Reg. We're keeping kayfabe about Reg. Another wrestling term two episodes in a row. But I'm keeping kayfabe about Humpy being a real fish, but also about Reg not being Meg.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I pity her and anyone else who has been subjected to this much repetitious.

[Meg Rowley]

It just inspires you to be like, the repetition makes you hate the thing. So you find yourself sitting there going, I hate apple tacos. And then.

[Ben Lindbergh]

What the. About 9 11, Mike, I had no negative feelings about oppo tacos previously. Many negative feelings about 9 11, to be clear, but. But not about oppo tacos. Anyway, I guess lest we repeat ourselves so many times that people start to hate us.

[Meg Rowley]

Many negative feelings about 9 11.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You don't want to go on the record that. That. That is the case. Just in case my position was just.

[Meg Rowley]

In case it wasn't clear.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Anyway, what I'm saying is I want the brewers to at least go down swinging and. And actually connecting with something when they swing. Not not swinging and missing, but actually hitting some balls hard. That would be.

[Meg Rowley]

Oh, my God, is this game about to start?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, we're about to. If you liked the little taste we had last time of Meg narrating play by play from the Dodgers first game, then you might be about to get a bit of that, though. Maybe she will just go silent for the rest of this episode. That is also possible. I'll just do a monologue while you.

[Meg Rowley]

It's the Reg there.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Quietly curse over there.

[Meg Rowley]

Yes, I would like to share my location. Okay. I'm gonna mute so that I can not blast game audio.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. Or. Or blasting Oppo Taco onto this podcast potentially too. All right. Right. So we'll see what happens obviously next time if one of these series or both of these series has or have been completed by next time we pod.

[Meg Rowley]

Then we will came in in time to see Leo Rivas get picked off again.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Yeah. Look, there were. There were some bad plays there, obviously bad base running plays. Revoz getting picked off. Yeah. The nailer one, the last out at the third base. The. Of course, the thing that you're never supposed to do, especially in that situation when you need base runners and runs and.

[Meg Rowley]

And.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And then Scherzer with his first pickoff in nine years. Yeah. So they were sloppy and maybe it wasn't the best approach, but credit to Toronto as well. So we'll see. We'll. We'll return and recap as soon as the dust settles on these games and these series. And of course, we'll have plenty of World Series previewing to do when the matchups are set.

[Meg Rowley]

I already want to die, and it hasn't even started yet. Help wanted, this series. Oh, get the. You. Oh, no. Oh, no. Why did I volunteer?

[Ben Lindbergh]

You're morphing into.

[Meg Rowley]

Here's what I can't understand. Here's what I can't decide. I need. I need your opinion on something. Dan Wilson looks like he wants to throw up. Here's. I need a. I need your feedback. So I. The advisability of me going and doing this is maybe making itself clear, as in, it isn't advisable at all. But so, like, I had designs on if the Mariners were to advance to the World Series, like, going and covering some games in person because, like. And so, like. But I haven't. I haven't bought a ticket home yet. And I was like, oh, I don't know what to do. And like, the refundable ones are like, so much more expensive. Like, it was adding like $300 to my round trip to do refundable. And so then I was like, oh, wait and see. And then I was like, before game three, I was like, if they win, if they win tonight, I'll buy a ticket. And then. And then they didn't. And so I haven't yet. And I'm like, it is again, as we try to understand the boundaries of magic and like, its purposes is the fact that I haven't bought the ticket. The reason that they've lost Is it like showing a lack of faith?

[Ben Lindbergh]

It is. I don't think that's the reason, but yes, it is.

[Meg Rowley]

I don't think that's the reason either.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Convincing a certain lack of faith. But yeah, you got to go if you can, if you have the opportunity. I think just it would make podcasting more difficult. Probably. But also, it is a.

[Meg Rowley]

But I take my mic.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Once in the lifetime opportunity, at least once in your lifetime thus far. Hopefully not the rest of your lifetime. But seeing the Mariners in the World Series, that has not happened previously.

[Meg Rowley]

So I went on Toronto radio earlier this week and I was asked about, like, what does it feel like to have them on the precipice of this? And I was like, well, well, the thing you have to understand is that a lot of people have died since the last Mariners were in the alcs.

[Ben Lindbergh]

There's some dead air after that. That's an effectively wild comment. That's less a sports radio comment.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, but I was like, you know, it was good to have something else to think about than the baseball game during that 15 inning one, like life and death and the passage of time.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So, anyway, yeah, well, I saw something in the bandwagon on Friday that I wanted to bring to your attention because I. I quibble with it. So this was. Zack Kreiser was writing about something that was told to him. And Zach writes, I was talking to a Dodgers fan last night who, after admitting a fondness for the Mariners, seized upon the salary cap chatter and sketched an interesting emotional counter argument about his favorite juggernaut, the Dodgers. He noted, lead with stars who arrived as something approaching castoffs. I would.

[Meg Rowley]

What?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I would question the term cast off, but what. What it means is transplants. Right. They came from elsewhere. Yeah. Not cast. I'm sorry, they were not.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, movie bets. Famously. I mean, like, I guess if one wanted to make an argument.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But anyway, yeah, they came from elsewhere is the point. So it continues. Betts was famously or infamously traded away from the Red Sox. Freddie Freeman was abandoned by the Braves. The. That's, you know, that's kind of true. They. They moved on. Right. Sh. Otani. Well, everyone wanted him, but the beginning of his career was deflated by the Angels incompetence. The Dodgers were a safe haven. Max Muny was a waiver claim. Te. Oscar Hernandez arrived on a pillow contract after a down season. His narrative capabilities flagged when he got to the pitching staff that has helped LA take a strangle hold on the Series. But, you know, he had me for a minute. And Zach says, I do wonder if the Dodgers place themselves in the lineage of the Core 4 Yankees by winning back to back World Series. How the baseball public will respond, I don't wonder. I'm, I'm pretty. We know certain Baseball Republic will respond. It's already responding that way. There will always be fans who line up to rail against the most financially powerful teams against the perpetual title contenders. But the individual movie villain energy that felt so easily placed upon the heads of those Yankees doesn't feel as natural on Bets or Freeman or Ohtani. And there's not a George Steinbrenner lightning rod figure to put a face on any evil Empire sequel. The salary cap battle will happen. The Dodgers would be a key piece of it. But I'm not sure the fans will really turn on this core. Not yet. Not like the Yankees. Yeah, I disagree. I think they will and are and perhaps already have to some extent. But I now this is partly just Dodgers fan brain saying, how could you hate our, our wonderful guys? Right. I think that's probably the Dodgers fan speaking to Zach who's saying, how could you hate these guys? They're so, so lovable. And other people will not see it that way. I agree that on an individual level, these are likable players. And, and I don't know that the core four that, that the Yankees were necessarily unlikable. I mean, you know, I was a Yankees fan at the time, so I'm subject to the same bias. But Bernie Williams, of course, was, was not classified as Core 4 kind of unfairly, but, but, but was extremely likable. And you know, the other guys. Did people like hate Andy Pettit particularly? No. You know, at least not till the HGH stuff came out. And Pata, you know, he could be a bit of a redass or get on your nerves a little if you weren't a fan of his team. But it wasn't like he was some pariah or something. And Rivera I think people mostly respected, like, you know, you hated to see him pitching against you in a big moment, of course, but he wasn't that, that hateable really. I mean, he was like, he was implacable. He was just the Terminator. Like you couldn't reason with him. You know, the bad Terminator, not the, the nice Terminator who ends up being an ally.

[Meg Rowley]

But he wasn't a nice Terminator.

[Ben Lindbergh]

No, he wasn't. He wasn't helping. He wasn't, you know, Arnold, where suddenly he's your, your ally, but he was, he was more of, you know, The, The Terminator.

[Meg Rowley]

He was a good Terminator. He wasn't a nice Terminator.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, I guess. I guess, you know, he was more of the Robert Patrick than the Arnold. But it wasn't like you. You hated him. You. You kind of had to hand it to him, I guess, as much as you were sick of seeing him being on the mound in these moments. And then Jeter, I think, was generally likable, except for the fact that his accomplishments and his Persona and all the rest of it was so blown out of proportion and, and he was. Was a great player and a Hall of Famer and all the rest, but he was so lionized and there was just so much hagiography and everything that it became kind of sickening if you weren't a Yankees fan or frankly, even if you were sometimes where it's like, look, he's. He's great. You know, like, we don't need to make him into a deity of some sort. He's. He's a really good baseball player, if that's. But, you know, all sorts of mystical powers of leadership and winning and clutchness were constantly attributed to him. So that rubbed people the wrong way. But I think what makes this Dodgers core actually less likable than that Yankees core is that those guys were homegrown. The Yankees came by that kind of, you know, in a different way. I mean, they still spent a lot. They were still the big bad Yankees, of course, but those guys they drafted and developed and they were career Yankees, and so you kind of had to give it to them like they, they weren't purely purchasing, you know, it was hard to say, at least with some of those teams, that they had really bought a championship because they had also drafted and developed those key players. And then of course, they kept them and they signed them to big extensions and, and all the rest and other.

[Meg Rowley]

Teams like bring in free agents, you know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, of course, yeah. But to the extent that those teams were identified with that core homegrown, you know, that collection of players who propelled them into being a dynastic team in contrast to earlier eras, you know, like the 1980s Yankees, who were good but never really gelled and often were just signing the biggest name and the highest priced guy and let's go get Dave Winfield and let's go get Reggie, or, you know, that's the 70s, but. Right. You were just constantly going and getting Ricky Henderson, whoever the star was, was established elsewhere. These guys, they broke in with the Yankees and became stars with the Yankees, and many of them stayed with the Yankees for their whole career, whereas in this case, the Dodgers are just plucking all of these stars from other franchises.

[Meg Rowley]

Now, I hate to break it to you, Ben, but everybody hated those Yankees teams. None of them were likable. No one liked. No. What do you. I get what you mean. I think that there's like a different. It washes over people a little differently. But here's the thing about it. You're just going to find a reason to dislike the team that spends the most money and is really good. You're just going to. They're going to find if they don't.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Spend the most money, if they win every year, you're still going to dislike them. Maybe it'll take a little longer, but eventually you're going to get sick of them. And the Yankees, though, look, there's just a whole historical thing with the Yankees that it's not as if you're ever evaluating a Yankees team in isolation. It's always part of the. This storied tradition and all the championships passed and everything. And so you're, you're already pre. Sick of them. If you're not a Yankees fan because of that. But like, when they won in 96, let's say you probably weren't sick of them because this was a new team and young and by Yankee standards, they hadn't won for a long time and they came back in that series and you know, some of these guys were pretty likable, but then, you know, they went in 98 and 99 and 2000 and yes, of course, by that point you're, you're sick of them. Absolutely. And you hate them. But I think it was easier because, yeah, there was George Steinbrenner and Mr. Money Bags and the whole Bryce Miller. By all means.

[Meg Rowley]

What a fascinating little artifact we are about to leave to people. Yeah, and look, look, sometimes you have to. You just have a bunch of meetings back to back to back to back to back, and then they, they get delayed and it's like when the first appointment at the doctor's office takes longer than everybody thought it would, and then the entire day is blown and you're missing lunch and then you have to pod and you have to pod because you can't pod tomorrow, you have to pod today. And we're gonna live stream anyways.

[Ben Lindbergh]

This is like a little taste, a little preview of the live stream for Patreon supporters that will have already happened the first of them, but there's another one coming up in, in a week or so when The World Series is going on, so you can still sign up, net Garver tier or above. Join us. But yes, this is a little sneak preview of, of what the live streams are like, except with, with your anxiety ratcheted up to 11. But the point is, Freddie Freeman was beloved by Braves fans while he was with that team. Mookie Betts was beloved by Red Sox fans. Shohei Ohtani was beloved by Angels fans and, and, and also generally, I guess by baseball fans. There wasn't really a reason to root against him as long as he was with such an inept team.

[Meg Rowley]

I just, on the Ohtani part, I feel bummed out by how many people make jokes about the gambling stuff with him. Still, it bums me out too. Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

I don't like it anyway.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's, it's tired, I think. But yeah, it hasn't stopped. But, but even putting the gambling stuff aside, once he took that, that money, which he earned and if anything made it more team friendly than he had to, and once he went to the favorites and, and hopped on that front runner bandwagon, basically there were people who were always going to turn on him and that has happened. And even if they don't personally loathe him, they don't root for him anymore. They root against him. And I understand why. Because you don't want his team to do well and you're just sort of sick of him.

[Meg Rowley]

It.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So I think that the, the Dodgers at the start of this run that they have been on, they were more likable partly because they just hadn't broken through.

[Meg Rowley]

I don't know what that was almost bad. Never mind. It's fine.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Partly because they had not broken through yet and they hadn't won since 1988 and they had a bunch of early playoff painful exits.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So. So that made people a little less sick of them. And also they were a much more homegrown team at that time. And I've written about how the composition of their roster and its homegrownness has changed. They've gotten so much less homegrown. It's much less guys drafted and developed by the Dodgers or reclamation projects whom they plucked off the scrap heap. You know, they're very.

[Meg Rowley]

No, it's just a double. It's fine. Double, it's fine.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I'm just gonna keep talking while you make sounds. I understand it comes with the territory here. But they are now not likable because they have morphed into mercenaries, essentially. I mean, you know, there are still some homegrown guys and some guys who are holdovers. But what they have done is they have gone and, and done, you know, Thanos collecting the infinity stones, and they've plucked other franchises famous and beloved players, and they've put them in Dodgers uniforms. And if anything, I think that makes them less likable. I don't know that Red Sox fans hold the Dodgers responsible for trading for bets. I think they hold the Red Sox responsible for trading him away, rightly. And the Braves, like, they moved on and they clearly weren't going to retain Freddy under any circumstances and they were just going to move on to Olson. And Shohei, well, can you really blame him for leaving the Angels at least? But. But that's what they've done. They've shopped at the top of the market now and they have gone and gotten the best players of NPB and the best players of all these other franchises. And that's quite hateable, I think, even if you don't hate Shohei Ohtani or Mookie Betts or Freddie Freeman, I mean, how could you hate Mookie? He's. He's delightful. But the fact that they, they all did go to the Dodgers and decide to stay there and sign big contracts, et cetera, they're hateable now. I don't think they're any less hateable if they repeat if they win the World Series this year. They're not any less hateable even if they're likable on an individual level.

[Meg Rowley]

I think that you're right in some respects. I do think you were, like, discounting the ability of fans of other teams to just find a reason to dislike the team they're, they're primed to dislike, whether it was the early, the, the early Yankees clubs you're referring to there or the, the, the current iteration of the Dodgers. Like, ask a Padres fan how they felt about the Dodgers before this, this crop came in. It wasn't better. You know, they weren't like, oh, we, we actually think they're sweet as can be. And now we're furious because they have Freddie Freeman and Mookie Bats. No, they hated them. They. They, they hated them. They hated them.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. I don't think they were as hated generally, though. I think they mean by your direct division rival or the person who. Playoffs. Sure.

[Meg Rowley]

But I think that those Yankees, these teams were hated by everybody, though.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

Sorry.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Inform.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, that's right. That sweeper is good. That's a good.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You've disabused me of my, my childhood naivete that everyone. My baseball Teams. Yes. But. But, yes. I really love Kirk, man.

[Meg Rowley]

I do love him. I want him to have a bad day at work, but I do do. I do love him. I. They're a likable team. It's really. It's so annoying. If it was the Yankees, for instance, just to pick up team out of my mind space, like, I would be able to just be like, but I like this. I like them.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I. Yeah, no, I. That's the problem, really, is that I want all of these teams to do well, or at least. No, the Dodgers have had their. Their winning. They have everything. Right. But. But all these other teams. Yeah. I'd like to see the Mariners win a World Series. I'd like to see the Blue Jays win a World Series. I'd like to see the brewers win a World Series. Unfortunately, only one of them can.

[Meg Rowley]

I. I do worry. I had this thought yesterday as I was sitting on the couch being graft and really appreciating the amount of restraint I was showing on social media. And I did advocate for killing Humpy. So you can imagine what. What other thoughts were rolling around in my brain that I was like. I had. I. I demonstrated admirable restraint. I did have the thought. I was like, like, are either of these teams just gonna get freaking boat race by the goddamn Dodgers? Yeah, I worry about that a little bit. It's quite possible. They're looking. They're looking good. And then Craig is like, no, they might still have vulnerabilities. And I was like, you're very sweet. But also, they look pretty good right now.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They do. Yes. They absolutely could. Could lose, sure. They definitely could. I don't think they're unbeatable or anything. And they could go back to their old ways of not hitting with runners and in scoring position and. And bats coming up empty, and you go cold in the wrong week and you're done. And that could happen to the Dodgers, but it is hard to see them, the first few games, this performance that they've put on against the brewers and.

[Meg Rowley]

Say all of Bryce Miller's vos in the first inning were up at least a tick and a half. Like his. His fastball is up 3 ticks. His splur is up a tick and a half. His Sinker is up 2.8 sweepers of 2.1. He is just like. He also. He has a. A Bible verse, like, cited on his cap, and I got nervous for a second, but I think it's fine because he. He has Isaiah 68 on his cap, and. And that is Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, whom shall I send and who will go for us? And I said, here am I. Send me. And I'm like, that's confidence, Bryce. I like it. I like that confidence, my guy.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I'm not sure that's the mindset the Mariners had. I think their mindset was let's send Woo if we can. And if we can't, I guess we'll send Miller. But it worked out.

[Meg Rowley]

Bryce is like, no, I am. Bryce is like, is this the. The verse that leads into the I am him stuff? He is him, I am him. I don't understand athletes, man. They're. They're such mysteries.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, well. Well, good for him. I hope his arm doesn't explode. But clearly he is. He's treating this like a must win game, which all postseason games are apparently. Okay, the last thing I wanted to ask you about before I put you out of your misery, but really you will remain in misery. It's just whether you're on the podcast or not, maybe you're even less miserable while I'm slightly distracting you here. Who knows?

[Meg Rowley]

But like, if Julio had seen another pitch.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But yeah, I guess I never know what, what people want from this podcast when this time of year rolls around because most people are primarily fans of their team. And so when we're hyper fixated on new teams, we're perhaps alienating everyone else. I think, you know, we're a national baseball podcast. People are used to us talking about the game as a whole and presumably they expect and want that from us. But probably they also miss when we would talk about their team or other things. Not just the Mariners and the brewers and the Blue Jays and the Dodgers. But. But I do want to ask you about a Seattle University pitching product which I've. I've always known that Terex Goble attended Seattle University. There was never a time that when.

[Meg Rowley]

I'm senile in a friggin nursing home.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, but Terence Goble has come up because as some of the hot stove speculation has started among eliminated.

[Meg Rowley]

Okay, it wasn't a home run, but Barger had a less good play. Yeah, you run Cal, you get that dumper to second. There we go.

[Ben Lindbergh]

A double for the dumper. Good for him.

[Meg Rowley]

Double for the dumpler.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Petriello had a an interesting [e-mail] by the way, which I think we've touched on this. But the fact that the one knee down catching stance, which has benefits and pays dividends when it comes to framing and other aspects of defense, without seemingly Detracting from the ability to, to block or anything. Yeah, yeah. I, you know, I'm, I'm somewhat skeptical of that. Just I know the number of wild pitches.

[Meg Rowley]

I know while he comes back, there's a little. I agree with you. I agree with you. That was my thought, too. I was like, sure, yeah, yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Granted, he plays a lot of road games too, but. Right. Yeah, there's something.

[Meg Rowley]

And he's good back there. I don't mean to say he's not, but.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, yeah, I should, I should stat blessed that. It's like when you, you know, certain basketball players there was like the, the study. I think it was Tom Haberstro maybe did the, like when Michael Jordan won defensive player of the year. It's like, you know, is that a turnover? Like, is that a block? Like some of that, at least in the past, before it was more standardized, you could kind of cook the books a little bit for your, Your hometown hero. I'd like to study and perhaps at some point I will. Just the, you know, what's the typical ratio of wild pitches to pass balls?

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Is cows. Out of the ordinary.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

This season and in prior seasons. Yeah. You know, just, Just saying.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The distinctions between wild pitches and pass balls are always a little hazy and nebulous and kind of arbitrary to begin with. So it, you know, it doesn't bother me that much, but. Because that is one of the fun facts that's trotted out there to burnish the, the legend of his. His legitimately excellent season.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. I don't know. Anyway, that's fair.

[Meg Rowley]

But I, I'm. Yeah, I'm with you. I think that, like, it is a. It is an underrated area of potential home cooking. I think that he's good back there.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

But I don't think he's. I mean, his only pass ball was in the postseason. He didn't have a regular season pass ball. That's wild. That was not a strike, sir. It wasn't. He called that a ball.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It was zero patch balls in the regular season. This year, 39 wild pitches. That's. That's extreme. The, the ratios in previous seasons for Cal, 5. 5 to 9 pass balls to wild pitches, 3 to 22, 3 to 31, 5 to 27, and then 0 to 39. So I, you know, I don't know. I'll. I'll, I'll look for what are the, the most out of whack ratios. So wild pitches to pack fastballs. How. How much of an outlier is that really? And and then maybe if I'm really feeling industrious, I can watch all of the wild pitches when Cal was behind the plate.

[Meg Rowley]

Like pull a, pull a meg and go do some very film study that takes you two weeks to write up.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. How many of those are kind of questionable? Anyway, the Seattle University pitcher that I am invoking here. Oh, why did I bring up Cal? Because Petriella's article, the one knee down stance, which has benefits defensively, also seems to have benefits from a fatigue standpoint because it's, it's just not as much wear and tear on your knees, on your haunches if you're not fully crouching but you're just doing the one knee down.

[Meg Rowley]

He should be on first base right now is the problem. Like that was ball four. He was in the exact same stupid spot as the prior splitter.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Like the sounds you're making are completely unrelated to the points I'm making.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, you're doing great.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Sounds like you're extremely frustrated.

[Meg Rowley]

No, I'm not mad at you.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You're the best Podcast point about one knee down stances, right, Jorge?

[Meg Rowley]

You make him pay for it the next time you're up. Okay?

[Ben Lindbergh]

As Pedrell pointed out, we've seen more catchers just playing more and just racking up more plate appearances in more games, and that does not seem to be a coincidence. It. It seems to be. So Cal hitting a double, motoring around to second. Perhaps his lower half has been spared somewhat by the shift in catching mechanics. Okay, sure. Point is, Tarek Skubel is one year away from free agency. He is the Seattle University pitcher and there's a lot of speculation about what will happen with him. A lot of hot stove talk. Will there be an extension? If there's not an extension, will the Tigers consider trading him? Could they do such a thing coming off what. What seems to be presumably back to back Cy Young awards. And if not, if they can't sign him, he is of course a Scott Boris client. Then what does that mean for the Tigers and their staff? What does that mean for, you know, do they, do they deal him mid season next year? Did they just ride it out? So there's been a bit of reporting about that. John Heyman writing about a Boris client. First time that's ever happened. But he wrote something for the Post about how Schubel, the baseline for him is 400 million. And then there was a report from Evan Petzold of the Detroit Free Press that the Tigers did make an extension offer for him after last off season. Which was for four years and under 100 million, which sounds preposterous, of course, but that was after the first excellent Cy Young season and also he had two more years of arbitration remaining at that stage. So those, those numbers for ARB eligible or pre ARB eligible players always seem low on the face of them because it's not the going rate, the market rate for free agents, but it, it shouldn't be and it wouldn't be at that point. So I, I haven't really crunched the numbers. But yeah, that sounds low, but it's not like wildly low because of where he was and what he had accomplished to that point. But now one season away from free agency with another season, fantastic season, maybe even better season under his belt. Yeah, he's in line to completely break the bank here and probably, probably set a record for a pitcher contract. I guess the, the comp is Garrett Cole, who was around the same age, I suppose. Terex Goble will turn 29 next month, so he will be 30 if he were to hit free agency next off season. I think Cole was maybe 29 still when he was a free agent. But, but you know, he got what, $324 million and then Yamamoto got 325. That was a whole different arrangement and different age and everything. But those are the upper bounds for pitchers. And the question is post Otani Deal, who is partly a pitcher, of course, so Donnie and Sodo Deal, now that we've seen these stratospheric totals, how high can a contract go for a pitcher, given how breakable pitchers are, even if they're the best and pretty dependable to this point. And you know, we saw the, the crochet extension. So these are the things that will be sort of setting the market and I'd imagine that Detroit will want to approach him and we'll want to talk to him. But you know, it, it's not going to be a discount situation in all likelihood with, with Scott Boris. So Skubal has them where he wants them. You know, maybe he wants to be there too, but, but they need him, obviously, and they should be as motivated as anyone to, to sign him and, and keep him there. So I would hate to see this offseason be dominated by Derek Schubel trade rumors. I, I would avoid that at all costs. Whatever it costs to sign Derek Schubel, like, you gotta, yeah, you gotta keep him. And if you can't extend him, then I think you have to ride it out with him. Like even if you might just lose him aside from the draft pick compensation. I don't know. It depends where the Tigers are at mid season next year and what sort of season he's having. Of course. And it's, it's tough because, you know, you trade Derek Skubals, you could get an enormous wealth of prospects, of course, but what sort of message would that send to your, your fan base coming out of the rebuild and trying to build on that?

[Meg Rowley]

I just don't imagine it likely to be something that they're looking to do. Like this should be. I know that they swooned late and all of that and it's not like they don't have work to do to bolster the roster, but I don't think there's any reason to think they won't be a competitive club next year. Right. Like I agree with you. I think that you try to get something done, but the thing about it is even if you can't, if you're a competitive team, you just get to enjoy the services of like one of the best handful of pitchers in baseball. So that seems fine, you know, like that, that seems fine. I just don't, I don't imagine that that's likely to be a priority for them. Like, I don't know, you'd have to be, you have to be just blown away and it would be a difficult needle to thread because you are trying to be a competitive club. And so you would need either impact big league pieces or near ready big league players who you think are going to, to sustain your club for years to come. I just think that the specific ask given where they are in their own competitive cycle makes it just a really thorny one to do in a way that wouldn't just inspire people to burn down your ballpark, you know, like, so I, I would be really shocked. I'd be really shocked.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. Yeah. And I will be curious to see how high the ceiling can go for a pitcher provided he has another strong season and is healthy and all the rest of it. Who could be better? Who could be more appealing? The MLB trade rumors poll results. There was a post. Should the Tigers consider a Tarek school trade? And no one, but only like 55 to 45 or so. So I don't know if that's just.

[Meg Rowley]

This is GM brain.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, this is like, that's basically what it is.

[Meg Rowley]

It's like a terminal case of GM.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Brain being fantasy baseball pilled or whatever it is.

[Meg Rowley]

Maybe, but have to do that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You just buying into the, the whole like, oh, we can't afford to Keep our players like, you know, only the Dodgers can sign someone, basically. So.

[Meg Rowley]

And I know that they're not running a payroll that's like the Dodgers and you know, they've. Their willingness to spend ebbs and flows. I think it's going to be more restrained and more strategic. But it's even this, this version of Ilitch ownership has been willing to put money into that payroll. I don't know that they've always picked the right guys to do it, but like, they've been willing to put money into that payroll. They should put maybe more in.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I'd like to see them be a little more active and aggressive than they were last off season and at the trade deadline this year, but they should. I mean, they're as motivated as anyone to have Turk spoogle. They have some payroll room, competitively speaking. They need him. They're coming out of a down cycle. This would be a big moment to step up and say, yes, we can be players for this sort of superstar.

[Meg Rowley]

It's also just. Here's the state of Tigers payroll after this year. Cobb's free agent. Glaber is a free agent. Rafael Montero, Tommy Kanely, Chris Paddock, Kyle Finnegan, you have Seawald with a mutual option, which I'm sure they'll decline. Flaherty has a player option, which he will probably. Oh, oh, little Leo Rivas. Holy Moses. Okay, look, you're not forgiven, but like, that is. You're doing the work. You're doing the work to be forgiven. What a nifty little play that was. Are you watching this game?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

Okay.

[Ben Lindbergh]

With a little less personal investment than you are, but yes.

[Meg Rowley]

Look at that. Oh, what a. He is. He is. We, you know, and you. You do root. Yeah. Luis is like, where is that energy Yesterday Flaherty, I imagine, will exercise his player option, which I think they'll probably be fine with. And then you have a bunch of ARB guys like this. They. It would be bonkers to. They have right now their pay, their estimated luxury tax payroll. And granted, that is before like, you know, Riley Green is about to hit ARB for the first time and torque. And you know, they have, have. I mean, Skubal is going to make some. I bet Derek School is going to make some good money arbitration. But, you know, like, this isn't an a particularly expensive roster is my point. And they, they have room to maneuver and they have very little on deck after 2026. Like, yeah, even Baez will be in his final. The final year of that contract in 2027. Like they are going to have room to, to maneuver if they want to. I can't get over that little Leo Rio lost catch.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You know, I did see a post on Reddit which was the latest email exchange or purported email exchange with Rocky's owner Dick Montfort, where someone wrote to Montfort and suggested trading for Tarek Skubal. And Dick Montfort responded. I assume this is legitimate, but allegedly. Yeah, you know, maybe there's kind of a, a meme format aspect to this, but he does legitimately answer fan emails, so it may very well be real. And the response here is, thanks, Kevin. We'll see what happens. So. So, you know, he's keeping the options open. Maybe one of these GMs that Dick Monford is interviewing will pony up and trade for Derek Skubel.

[Meg Rowley]

Do you think that the commissioner would let that trade go through?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Just keep him out of the hands of.

[Meg Rowley]

I think, I think that he would, would. He might step in. I think it will be bad for baseball school in Colorado. That's bad for baseball. I think that it would require intervention.

[Ben Lindbergh]

If anyone is, is out.

[Meg Rowley]

I mean, like, here's the, here's the hilarious thing. Yeah, they don't have the guys. They don't have the guys.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Of course.

[Meg Rowley]

Like, no, they don't have the guys. They don't have.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's, it's, it's trolling, I think, to some extent. I mean, good, good natured trolling. And you know, it's like the update line about Ted Williams. God does not answer letters. Dick Monfort does. He pretty reliably answer emails, which is amusing to say the least. It's.

[Meg Rowley]

Maybe you are talking to me about a hypothetical Tarek Skubal trade to keep me from watching this game with my full attention. That is, I mean, I understand it is not your fault. I, I don't think that you are. You're not trolling me, you're not punking me. And my meetings going long is why we are podcasting at the time that we are. So it's like this is entirely my own doing, but it is. I just want us to step back and think about the fact that you're like, no, we need to talk about a Tarek school trade. That will never happen.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, no, probably not. It shouldn't happen this winter. At least if, if the Tigers late season scuffles continue and, and they're out of it. Well, we've seen them appear to be out of it at a trade deadline and then end up not out of it. But it's if, if everything goes wrong for them early next season and they're, they're way out of it and they have made a competitive offer, a really sincere, good, appealing offer to Terex Goble and have been rebuffed. Only under those circumstances would I say, well, all right, I guess get what you can for Tarek Skuble as a, a rental post all Starbreaker post trade deadline. And you know there's always the option that you could bid for his services and for agency.

[Meg Rowley]

Of course you are allowed to try to resign players even once they've hit the free agent market is one of the funny things about them.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. Okay, I will let you stop talking about Derek Scubal and focus fully on the Mariners. I'm not sure if that's considerate of me or not, whether I should actually keep you talking.

[Meg Rowley]

I don't. They haven't.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Might actually be better for you. But I don't know.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, I don't know. But I, I do know two things. One is that at some point during our livestream, I will want to consume an adult beverage and in order for that to be a good choice and not a self destructive Choice As a 39 year old, I need to eat something and so I should go so that I can have a little nosh before.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Just start the sake whenever you feel like it. But yes, I don't have a sake.

[Meg Rowley]

Maybe that's the thing though. But I, I mean, I have beer in the fridge, you know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That's why if the Mariners fortune soured. You have run out of sake.

[Meg Rowley]

Well, I had, but I had. Well on, on Wednesday. I didn't drink anything during that game, did I? I don't remember. I definitely did on Thursday and then they lost and I still had sake. So. Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

What do you make of that, Humpy? You know, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Meg Rowley]

No, I think we. He needs to die. Like, I'm sorry. Sorry. He. He needs to die. It's. It's not, it's not his fault. And again, it will be a sacrifice because we love Humpy. But I, I do worry that he needs to die. Randy, stop swinging at that stupid slider.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I wish you the best. I will talk to you again soon.

[Meg Rowley]

All right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And we will talk to everyone else a little later. Well, editor and producer Shane McKeon joined a portion of our Patreon livestream and here's how he described the end of the episode you just listened to. I just finished editing tonight. Tomorrow's episode.

[Meg Rowley]

Sorry.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's a real Interesting time. Just cause it was recorded immediately before the Mariners game started. So the last half hour Ben is talking about whether the Tigers will trade Scubal to the Rockies and Meg is watching the Mariners game just slowly, slowly losing it. It's.

[Meg Rowley]

Yep.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's really unlike anything I've ever heard broadcast before. I think we're really breaking new ground. Not inaccurate. I cut off the recording of 2389 immediately before Meg's mood improved because Eugenio Suarez hit a home run. It would not be his last home run on the night, nor would he be the only hitter to go deep multiple times. Now the Mariners were losing by the time we started our Patreon live stream when the NLCS game started and hope our Patreon supporters won't mind if we play a few snippets. A small percentage of our almost three hour stream. But within the first 20 minutes or so of that stream, the Mariner's fortunes and thus Meg's mood improved considerably because first Cal rally hit a homer. This is the way we reacted. Now you all know where we are, roughly. Oh, we'll issue reminders every now and then or you'll be able to tell based on our reactions. Speaking of reactions.

[Meg Rowley]

Hot diggity dog.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Sorry for Spoilers for anyone who's behind you.

[Meg Rowley]

Beautiful man. I'm so sorry if I was really loud. I'm so sorry if I was a really loud.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Less loud than I expected, if anything.

[Meg Rowley]

Well, I'm trying to. I, you know, I am a professional.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And then not long after, Suarez went deep again and I can't.

[Meg Rowley]

Did he get it? Did he get all of it? Did he get all of it? There it goes. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Wow. Things have really looked up for you and your team since this live stream started.

[Meg Rowley]

I. I was like, we are the new.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The new Humpy. The new Etsy witch. That one was a grand slam and it put the Mariners one win away from an unprecedented pennant. Mariners won. Humpy loss. Meg still stood by her demand that Humpy be sacrificed. Of course, there was another game going on at the time. A game in which Shohei Ohtani hit one home run which elicited these sounds from my mouth. Oh, wow. Not long after that, I mused, because he's been struggling so much at the plate, if he does just have himself a day here and he's off to a good start with a homer and a walk and a couple scoreless innings, it'd be pretty cool if he could just get rid of the postseason struggles all at once. In one game on both sides of the ball. And then he hit a second home run.

[Meg Rowley]

Oh, how are we out of sync again? I'm still looking at.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, my God. Did that leave the stadium?

[Meg Rowley]

Oh, my God.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Holy. Wow.

[Meg Rowley]

Well, Ben, you wanted a signature game, and I. I think you got 169.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Wow.

[Meg Rowley]

Wow. Goodness me.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And finally, he hit a third. By which time we had been joined by Craig Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus. I saw it before. I saw it. So there it is. Jesus. Oh, my God.

[Meg Rowley]

Oh, wow. Oh, I'm sorry to. I'm sorry to any brewers fans listening, but. Oh, what a cool thing. Man, this is.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That's ridiculous. Like, it's just 99 down and in and he. That wasn't a bad to center, left, left.

[Meg Rowley]

Wow.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That's so messed up.

[Meg Rowley]

That's great.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So, yeah, it was quite a night to be live streaming when Otani had his signature game or his latest signature game. What even is the Otani game at this point? Is it the WBC final? Is it the 5050 game? Is it this one? Three dingers, a walk, and six scoreless innings on the mound with 10 strikeouts. Doesn't get much better than that. Unless maybe it were in the World Series or in a closer series. I'm happy that we happened to be streaming on that night so that we could capture for posterity our real time reactions to both the Mariners comeback and Meg's resulting exuberance and our awe at watching that display from Ohtani. Those are not the normal noises we emit on the podcast proper. The Dodgers clinch a pennant in. Otani checks off another box on his career bingo card. A legendary postseason game, arguably the best single game postseason performance and one we couldn't get from him last year when he was not pitching the NLCS MVP for all intents and purposes, based on his performance in a single game. And yeah, you know what? Fair. In that game, Ohtani basically beat the brewers by himself, single handed. Except that he used both of his hands. He throws right, he bats left, he beats the brewers both ways. One more live stream to come. Next Friday, World Series, game one. Shohei Ohtani will be playing again. Not sure we can guarantee the same fireworks on that stream, but hey, sign up, join us, find out. And you know, as mad as you might might be that S.H. otani joined the bullies of baseball, the sports super villains, the Dodgers. We do get more moments like that because that was what we were lacking. With the exception of that WBC standout moment. We didn't get to see Shohei Otani on the stage when he was with the Angels. He could have had a whole career like Mike Trout, where we were deprived of October Otani. And at least this way we get to see the best player being the best at the biggest moment, which in isolation is good for baseball. Whether it's good that it's accompanied by such Dodgers dominance, well, that's a separate conversation which we have had and we'll have again. But man, rarely have my wildest dreams been fulfilled more than they have by Shohei Ohtani's career. I feel bad for the brewers and the Blue Jays, but this is tremendous content. If you'd like to help us keep making tremendous content here at Effectively Wild, you can support the podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com effectively wild as have the following five listeners who have already signed up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going, help us stay active ad free and get themselves access to some perks. Lee Josh, Romans, Donovan, Isla Findley and Adam Bradley. Thanks to all of you. Patreon perks include, well, access to the aforementioned playoff live streams, monthly bonus episodes, potential podcast appearances, personalized messages, prioritized email answers, discounts on merch and ad free fan graphs, memberships and so much more. Check out all the [e-mail] effectively wild if you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon section. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcastangraphs.com youm can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook [e-mail] group effectivelywild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at R Effectivelywild and you can check the show notes and fan graphs or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we see. Excited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance and accompanying us on our live stream. Thanks to all of you for listening. That will do it for today and for this week. We hope you have a wonderful weekend and we will be back to talk to you early next week.

[Meg Rowley]

On here.

[Ben Lindbergh]

About baseball with nuance and puffy and stats. Yeah yeah, don't want to hear about pitcher wins or about gambling odds. All they want to hear about my tight athleticles and the texture of the hair on the arm growing out of one's head.

[Meg Rowley]

Gross. Gross Jimmy.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Gimme gimme up. Thank you Wild. Give me Give me, give me a faculty wild. Give me, give me, give me a faculty wild. This is a faculty wild.