Effectively Wild Episode 2392: The Eyes of the World (Series) Are Upon You

Summary

Effectively Wild Episode 2392: The Eyes of the World (Series) Are Upon You

Date: October 25, 2025
Hosts: Ben Lindbergh (The Ringer), Meg Rowley (FanGraphs)

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Episode Overview

This episode, released on the eve of Game 1 of the 2025 World Series, offers an in-depth and lively discussion about the Toronto Blue Jays vs. Los Angeles Dodgers matchup. Ben and Meg break down the “must-win” Game 1 media narrative, preview critical lineup decisions (particularly Toronto’s bold choices), and explore broader themes of baseball’s global appeal, managerial hirings, and even the curious fashion choices of players. The episode brims with statistical analysis, dry wit, and nuanced insight for fans eager to follow the Fall Classic.

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World Series Atmosphere: LA and Beyond

[00:18 – 03:25]

• Ben’s Return from LA: Ben describes feeling the palpable excitement in Los Angeles, from Shohei Ohtani murals to overhearing spontaneous World Series conversations—not just in sports-centric environments, but throughout the city.
• Shohei Mania: Meg notes that Shohei Ohtani’s presence permeates LA culture, although nothing compares to the saturation in Japan.
• World Series Cities: Both observe the communal, celebratory air in both LA and Toronto as Game 1 approaches, highlighting how baseball temporarily dominates multicultural, entertainment-rich cities.

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“Must-Win” Mania and Narrative Creep

[04:28 – 06:32]

• Game 1 as 'Must Win': Ben and Meg gently mock and then analyze a Globe and Mail headline declaring Game 1 a “must-win” for the Blue Jays, referencing the modern trend of overusing must-win language in sports media.

• Is It Ever a Must-Win?

  • Ben: “An actual argument is being made here…I’m going to allow it, just this once, even though…I don’t necessarily agree with that argument.“ – [05:19]
  • Meg: (paraphrasing the column) “If they lose, they’ll start thinking, and once that happens, they're cooked.” – [05:25]

• Historical Perspective: They discuss historical World Series splits (game one winner wins 63%) and Tom Tango’s research showing this is not much higher than chance, emphasizing the folly in drawing sweeping conclusions from one game.

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Team Psychology and the Blue Jays’ New Himbo Energy

[09:19 – 12:44]

• Pressure and Poise: Meg explores the psychological dimensions—whether young, underdog teams can stay loose in the moment. She draws a fun parallel with prior Phillies teams’ “himbo” vibes:
  • Meg: “There’s a little something to the, like, it’s better when Wile E. Coyote doesn’t look down... Sometimes it’s good to be a himbo.” [10:45–12:38]
• The hosts agree the Jays are battle-tested and unlikely to collapse under early adversity, dismissing the notion that missing Game 1 spells instant doom.

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Trey Savage: Rookie Marvel and Mindset

[12:44 – 16:51]

• Savage’s Wild Ascent:
  • Meg relays rookie pitcher Trey Savage’s story—debuting as a pro, rocketing through every level in one year, and starting Game 1 of the World Series.
  • Savage’s Poise:
    • “There are five-year-olds who play this game. I think that me at 22 years old, I can do it just fine.” — Trey Savage, quoted by Meg [14:33]
    • Ben: “If you can think of it that way…if you can get in that headspace where, hey, like, I’m just playing with house money…then that’s great.” [14:51]
• The duo reflect on overcoming anxiety, the myth of being “impervious to pressure,” and how athletes compartmentalize nerves.

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Lineup Chess: Bo Bichette Plays Second, Injury Intrigue for Springer

[26:34 – 33:35, 34:50 – 36:14]

• The Surprising Move:

  • The Jays’ lineup features Bo Bichette, normally a shortstop, making his MLB debut at second base on the World Series stage—his idea, to allow better overall defense and keep Springer at DH, suggesting Springer's knee isn't 100%.
  • Ben: “To do it on the fly…that is…he’s never played second base in the majors.”
  • They note how rare such transitions are and discuss its implications for Bichette’s free agency.

• “Creative” Roster Construction:

  • “Maybe telling us something…about the state of George Springer.” (Ben) [33:12]
  • The hosts untangle the position swaps and highlight how Toronto’s prioritization of defense and improvisation is a hallmark of their front-office philosophy.

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Underdog Dynamics and the Lopsided Narrative

[20:14 – 25:34]

• Are the Jays True Underdogs?

  • Despite being a top-5 payroll team with big stars, Toronto is still cast as David to LA’s Goliath—thanks to LA’s sustained excellence and starpower.
  • Ben: “It’s odd that you come into a series where the underdog has home field advantage.” [20:55]

• Rotation Gap:

  • They acknowledge the Dodgers’ distinct advantage in starting pitching (Snell, Yamamoto, Glasnow, Ohtani), while Toronto’s depth is less certain after their top two.
  • Ben: “There is a gap, for sure. To say it’s gonna be a cakewalk seems too dramatic.”

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Strategic Angles: Splitters, Small Ball, and Bullpen Exposure

[13:35 – 14:25; 35:35 – 41:48]

• Split-Finger Fever:

  • They discuss the prevalence of splitters (Sasaki, Gausman, Savage) and the Dodgers’ above-average results against them, but note the uniqueness of facing so many back-to-back in the postseason.

• Small Ball and Low-Scoring Games:

  • This October has seen an uptick in bunts, walks, and cautious base running—though base stealing is down, and neither team excels at it.

• Reliever Usage Trends:

  • Dodgers’ effective “starting pitchers in relief” strategy minimizes their bullpen’s exposure—possible due to dominant starters and quick games from aggressive opposing hitters.

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The Global World Series: International Stars and Massive Audience

[52:23 – 53:22]

• With Ohtani, Yamamoto, and Sasaki keying LA, and Vlad Guerrero Jr. starring for Toronto, this Series commands attention across the U.S., Canada, and Japan.
• Meg: “It feels like you have three [countries engaged] because the Japanese audience is just…huge. As long as these Dodgers are involved…”

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Quick Hits: AI Analytics, Pharrell’s MLB Fit, and Baseball’s Cultural Zeitgeist

[59:24 – 63:40]

• Google Cloud AI “Bat Tap” Stats:

  • The hosts debate whether MLB is actually tracking bat taps and whether this is a fun demo of Statcast’s power or just frivolous data.
  • Ben: “Is this a good stat to highlight?…this is not really sabermetrics.” – [59:37]

• Pharrell & The Jonas Brothers as MLB Headliners:

  • Meg puzzles over MLB’s use of Pharrell as its World Series ad campaign centerpiece, calling it “2008-coded” and wondering about the league’s sense of musical relevance.
  • Ben: “It feels very recession-coded to me…what are we doing? This is like Hunger Games.” [54:47]

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Managerial Moves: Angels and Giants Both Buck Convention

[66:13 – 83:33]

Angels Hire Kurt Suzuki; Snub Albert Pujols

• Suzuki gets a quirky one-year deal; Pujols' managerial pitch stalls, likely over salary or contract length.
• Meg: “You don’t usually hire a manager who is instantly a lame duck. That’s just…Angels.” [68:20]
• Angels’ off-field issues: From an air conditioning debacle to legal troubles. Organizational dysfunction evident.

Giants Tab Tony Vitello from Tennessee

• Historic Leap:
  • Vitello becomes the first modern college head coach to jump straight to managing an MLB team, breaking with baseball tradition.
  • Ben: “It’s a bold strategy, Cotton…a low floor but high ceiling move.” [82:27]
• Risks and Style:
  • Can Vitello’s “inspirational” and intense personality translate from wrangling college kids to a big league clubhouse packed with adults, some not much younger than himself?
  • Meg: “Your mileage may vary…sometimes young men need to be told to knock it off because they're beings dicks.” [88:53]

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Statistical Deep Dive: International Players and World Series Participation

[99:16 – 101:33]

• Listener Question:
  • Is this the World Series with the most WAR from foreign-born players?
  • Answer: 2024 (Dodgers/Yankees) holds the all-time record (39.7 cumulative WAR), but 2025’s Jays and Dodgers combine for 32.1 WAR from foreign-born players—the 5th highest ever.
  • Other fun international stats: 2018 WS had most countries (9) represented.
  • (See full breakdown around [99:16])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Ben, on World Series narrative:
  • “It’s not a haves and have-nots…it's have most versus have a lot.” [45:11]
• Meg, on player psychology and nerves:
  • “Most people—they’re not just completely impervious to pressure or anxiety…you just accept it, embrace it, perform despite feeling that thing.” [16:46]
• On the Blue Jays’ rope-a-dope underdog role:
  • “The Dodgers turn any opponent into an underdog because of their stretch of sustained success and…star power.” (Meg) [20:33]
• On Trey Savage’s mindset:
  • “I try to treat pressure as if it’s not as high pressure as it is mentally, which maybe sounds simplistic.” (Ben, quoting Savage) [15:21]
• On Tony Vitello’s MLB potential:
  • “I find the vibe of that [Tennessee] team to suck out loud….I do think his affection for [his players] is genuine. Your mileage may vary.” (Meg) [86:54–88:53]
• On the Angels’ odd managerial process:
  • “It just feels like they somehow backed into this in the most Angels way imaginable.” (Meg) [71:23]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• World Series City Vibes: [00:18 – 03:25]
• Game 1 “Must Win” Narrative: [04:28 – 06:32]
• Underdog and Psychological Angles: [09:19 – 12:44]
• Trey Savage & Jays Roster Moves: [12:44 – 16:51], [26:34 – 36:14]
• Rotation Strengths and Weaknesses: [20:14 – 25:34]
• Managerial Hirings and Analysis: [66:13 – 83:33]
• Stat Blast: World Series International Players: [99:16 – 101:33]
• Culture/Pop Culture riffing (Pharrell, Jonas Brothers): [53:30 – 58:39]
• Fun with AI and Bat Taps: [59:24 – 63:40]

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Memorable Asides

• “Barger's Name Saga”: The hosts repeatedly trip over the pronunciation of Addison Barger’s name, tying it into a bit about Jeff Hoffman’s creatively spelled children’s names. [31:49 – 33:04]

• On Blake Snell’s Fashion Line:

  • Meg and Ben react in amusement and confusion to Snell’s new “out-striped” pants as a fashion designer, comparing the look to toothpaste mishaps and Northwest style norms. [72:29 – 77:03]

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Post-Game Recap [98:15 on]

• The Blue Jays blow past the Dodgers in Game 1 with a 114 win, executing the anti-Dodger plan: knock out the starter, feast on a beleaguered bullpen.
• Bo Bichette looks fine at second base; Trey Savage delivers sufficiently.
• Listener question on “must win” games is answered with tongue-in-cheek escalation: after G1 being “must win” for Jays, Derek Jeter calls Game 2 “must win” for Dodgers.
• A “stat blast” segment summarizes international impact, notably more world influence than ever before thanks to stars from Japan, Dominican Republic, etc.

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Final Thoughts

This episode captures the glorious swirl of analysis, commentary, historical context, and playful banter that defines Effectively Wild. The hosts tie together the on-field, off-field, and meta-narratives of the World Series, reminding listeners how baseball both reflects and bends the broader trends of sports and culture.

If you missed this episode, you missed:

• A nuanced breakdown of psychological and tactical keys to the Fall Classic
• A rare granular look at bold roster decisions and their ripple effects
• Inside baseball on the international impact, managerial hiring oddities, and modern MLB quirks
• And a healthy dose of humor—from must-win hyperbole to distressed reactions at pants

A must-listen for the baseball-obsessed.

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Support Effectively Wild: patreon.com/effectivelywild

Transcript

[Meg Rowley]

Foreign.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Hello and welcome to episode 2392 of Effectively Wild a Fan Graphs Baseball Podcast, brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Rowley of fangraphs and I am joined as always, by Ben Limberger, the Ringer. Well, not Azoids, but again today.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Is this 2392? It is 2392. And you are Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer. And you are back to being Prime Ben. You have regained your Prime Ben status. Other Ben. Other Ben.

[Ben Limberger]

Again, good to be back as Prime.

[Meg Rowley]

Ben and not Ben. Beta. Beta Ben. Some might say I'm Beta Ben all the time. Who knows?

[Ben Lindbergh]

So loaded. You know, there's a lot to that term right now. So that's why I say Other Ben. More neutral.

[Ben Limberger]

Bizarro Ben.

[Meg Rowley]

I don't know, but I'm back.

[Ben Limberger]

Yes, we are not always podcasting together. In fact, we didn't last time, but we are this time. I have returned from my trip, which was to Los Angeles just for the.

[Meg Rowley]

Ringers annual in person meetings. Sometimes we like to see each other's faces not on a screen.

[Ben Limberger]

And it was actually energizing to be in one of the World Series cities because you could kind of sense it. If I had not known that there was a World Series taking place this week and that it involved Los Angeles team, I think I would have quickly become aware of that because there was just sort of World Series excitement everywhere. And in the lobby of my hotel.

[Meg Rowley]

There was a life size Shohei on the wall.

[Ben Limberger]

Like not the actual Shohei, but kind of like a fathead cutout sort of, which seemed to be about the size of the actual Shohei.

[Meg Rowley]

I don't think that's because they knew I was coming and they put it up just for me.

[Ben Limberger]

I'm sure it was there. And in fact, a hotel close to.

[Meg Rowley]

My hotel has a whole mural, the whole just, just like ground to ceiling sort of mural of shohei. And that's not new for the World Series. There's just sort of generally some amount of Shohei mania in la, which I'm sure is a fraction of how often you see Shohei. If you're in Japan, for instance. Oh yeah, it's just absolute inundation. It's saturation with shohei.

[Ben Limberger]

But it is nice to see that in an American city in 20 that much baseball. And I just kind of kept overhearing conversations about the World Series organically. Obviously some were taking place at the Ringer offices, which is not super surprising perhaps to say sports and culture company.

[Meg Rowley]

But People talking about baseball who would.

[Ben Limberger]

Not normally be talking about baseball or.

[Meg Rowley]

Just overhearing, you know, coming across people just in the street talking about the series. I'm sure it's much the same in Toronto, if not even more pronounced, but.

[Ben Limberger]

I think so to get that kind of excitement and enthusiasm. And that's in a place where there's a lot of other things going on. Many forms of entertainment. NBA season just started. Couple teams in LA this year. One of those teams in the news for all sorts of non directly basketball related reasons. Luka LeBron. Plenty of excitement for all of that too. But it feels like a baseball city right now and that's fun. Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So, so committed a baseball. Say they had their staff meetings during the rest of the.

[Ben Limberger]

Well, that's, that's not ideal. I mean we're very heavy on basketball.

[Meg Rowley]

And it's not the greatest time to.

[Ben Limberger]

Have basketball people meeting either. It was the same last year. In fact, it was the same.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I remember.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

And I guess I missed an episode then too, probably. But I remember just writing World Series preview stuff while trying to juggle those meetings, which was not ideal. But yeah. So it's time. We are recording on on Friday.

[Ben Limberger]

I took either red eye or early.

[Meg Rowley]

Morning flights, so I'm all sort of screwed up alth. Yeah, just generally am all the time, day, night, cycle wise. So I got home super early on Friday.

[Ben Limberger]

I slept a lot during the day.

[Meg Rowley]

And now we are podcasting in the hours before game one and before our.

[Ben Limberger]

Game one live stream.

[Meg Rowley]

So I enjoyed your World Series preview with other Ben. Yeah, felt like that prepped me for everything.

[Ben Limberger]

And I guess just a few other.

[Meg Rowley]

Things I'll add to that. First of all, we have yet another.

[Ben Limberger]

Instance of must win creep. And this, this might be granted when Max Scherzer said every postseason game is a must win. I guess there's nowhere really to go from that.

[Meg Rowley]

But.

[Ben Limberger]

But the Globe and Mail, which is essentially Canada's paper of record, okay.

[Meg Rowley]

Declared Game one of the World Series a must win for the Blue Chase. Game one must win. Yeah.

[Ben Limberger]

The headline game one of the World Series is a must win for the Blue Jays. And it's not even a case of a headline distorting a story because that is what the story said too. Wow. Yeah. Against this Dodgers team, there is no distinction between may win and must win games. You don't get a running start. They're already a few steps ahead of you if they hope to compete. Game one is an absolute must win.

[Meg Rowley]

The Toronto Blue Jays, should they lose.

[Ben Limberger]

They'Ll start thinking, and once that happens, they're cooked.

[Meg Rowley]

So I guess by the time this.

[Ben Limberger]

Podcast is posted, people will know the outcome of the World Series or. Well, I guess it's possible that the.

[Meg Rowley]

Blue Jays could win Game one and still lose. It doesn't say that if they win Game one, they will win the series, but we will know whether Toronto has effectively been eliminated because if they lose to Blake Snell and the Dodgers, then evidently it's over.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So I don't agree with that assessment. But I will say this. I actually, I think this is different. I think this is a little different than the creep that we've been seeing because an actual argument is being made here, right. A position is being put forth to justify what it sounds like the author knows is otherwise. A very silly thing to say because it's the first game of a seven game series. Right. And so I'm going to, I'm going to allow it. I'm going to allow it just this once, because I think that there's, there's been thought put into an argument, even though, as I've noted, I, I don't necessarily agree with that argument. So. I think it's okay, Ben. I think it's actually okay.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, I don't.

[Ben Limberger]

I think it's because the whole point seems to be that if the Blue.

[Meg Rowley]

Jays, like, look down, they'll realize that they're going to collapse or something. Or, you know, if they awake to the stakes of this moment, they will be unmanned. And the Dodgers have been here before and these Blue Jays haven't really been here. And so they're like, you know, it's the whole underdog David versus Goliath thing.

[Ben Limberger]

But nothing about how the BU have.

[Meg Rowley]

Played this postseason suggests to me that they're like, not ready to rise to the moment. They've been, they've been great. They've played the Yankees like they beat.

[Ben Limberger]

The Mariners in seven games. I mean, they mentally, psychologically, certainly seem.

[Meg Rowley]

As, as prepared as one could be. Granted, the Dodgers have been here before.

[Ben Limberger]

And have been here a bunch of times.

[Meg Rowley]

And so, yeah, you know, maybe they're a bit better acclimated to that than the Blue Jays, but I don't really get the sense that like, if they lose game one, they're suddenly going to.

[Ben Limberger]

Be like, uhoh, oh, what are we even doing here? We're just pretenders. How dare we? Yeah, and they'll just completely fall apart.

[Meg Rowley]

The points of these Dodgers are very good and they're favored to win the series. And you sure don't want to lose Game one. It's bad to lose any game. But, you know, you lose game one, I guess the winner of World Series.

[Ben Limberger]

Game one has won 76 of 120 series, which is 63%. And it's been higher than that in the wild card era. I don't know whether that means anything.

[Meg Rowley]

But 24 of 30 in the wild card era. But that also doesn't really suggest any kind of momentum effect because as people pointed out, Tom Tango noted on Blue sky that just luck, just a series of coin flips would suggest that you would go on to win 66% of the time. So, you know, if you figure, well, game one winner is probably better, the.

[Ben Limberger]

Better team, all else being equal, and.

[Meg Rowley]

So you might expect it to be.

[Ben Limberger]

Even higher than the randomness alone would suggest or the probabilities. And in fact, it's lower than that or at least over the whole span of the World Series. So I don't know. It's, it's true that I guess the.

[Meg Rowley]

Dodgers, as the story notes, have not.

[Ben Limberger]

Lost a Game one in their run.

[Meg Rowley]

This year or in last year, too. And so, you know, maybe you could say, like, give them something to think about here. They haven't had to question themselves because they've gotten off to a lead every time and obviously they have not been.

[Ben Limberger]

Stopped yet in 2024, 2025.

[Meg Rowley]

So absolutely agreed it would be good to win Game one, but absolute must win. I'm not going to go there.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I think everything that you're saying is sound. And again, I will, I will note that I am not saying that they must win, that they are doomed to a World Series loss if they don't. I will say, and we talked about this on our last livestream, I will admit that I'm relieved to not be doing an entire game that involves the Mariners for another live stream. And you know what? I don't know if anyone would come away liking me better for it. I think this is, I'm not saying it's for the best. I'm still quite sad about the whole thing. We don't have to linger on it. Other Ben and I processed this loss. We don't have to.

[Meg Rowley]

My condolences, which I expressed to you.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That you did, you did. But I think the odds of people coming away thinking like that, Meg, she's well adjusted, much higher now. One thing we noted on our last livestream is that there is something about like, you know, the first time that the Phillies made it back, it made a deep postseason run with this group, they had the air of a, of like a beautiful himbo. You know, they, they, I don't even think they were outmatched really in any of their rounds, but they just had this air of like, we're just a bunch of guys being dudes. Bros. Bean. Gentlemen. And they had an, they had a, they had a himbo esque air about them. And I think that there is, there is a little something. There is a little something. I don't think it's a lot of something, but I do think there is a little something to the, like, you know, it's better when Wiley Coyote doesn't look down. And I agree with you that like this team, lest we forget, they lost their first two games in the alcs. They lost them at home. They lost them at home to the Mariners, a Mariners team that was throwing exhausted guys and they didn't blink, you know, and they didn't, they didn't back down and they took that series to seven and they won and here they are. And so I think that they have, they've peered into the void before and, and managed to not be consumed by it. But I do think that sometimes if you're able to like just be guys being dudes and dudes being bros, that you, you have a lightness to you. You know, you play loose, as they, as they say. And there's a little, little something to that. Is it, is it a decisive something? No, I don't believe so at all. But it's. There's a little something. There's a little something. So. Yeah. And, and you might know that like if Trey Savage comes out and is able to Game 1 starter, Traya Savage, what a year, What a year for the young man. My goodness. But if he comes out and dominates the Stodgers lineup or even just gives them good length, you know, and keeps it close so that they can minimize the bullpen's exposure to that lineup, you might come away feeling more confident about the direction of the series, which again, doesn't doom them to failure later or guarantee success. But I do think you would feel like, oh, well, this, this rook was able to hold them in check. Well, we might, we might have something here. And to be clear, I think they already feel this is a very confident seeming Blue Jays team. They do not strike me as cowering. You know, they are not afraid. But sometimes it's good to be a himbo. You know, it's good to be a. Yeah, it's like a whole team of.

[Meg Rowley]

Phillies haven't really ceased to Be himbos. To be clear, I don't think subsequent.

[Ben Lindbergh]

To that first run different, they, they got a, a, an infusion of revitalization, a refreshing of himboism. When they traded for Bader, you know, bringing Bader in, it's like the himbo vibes are back. That guy has immaculate vibes. He really does. It's really great.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah, no, I love the Savage story.

[Meg Rowley]

It's so much fun for him to make his professional debut and to pitch at as many levels as he did this year. As we have discussed, going from eight ball to high A to double A to triple A to the majors in a single season and then pitching the.

[Ben Limberger]

ALDS and the ALCS and the World Series, he's basically done it all, I guess. Yeah, they skipped the wild card round.

[Meg Rowley]

So he couldn't check that box off. But basically he has pitched every stop that you could in a single season and he absolutely deserves to get a start in this World Series or two. Yeah, he's absolutely proved that he's one of the, the best pitchers on that team. And there's no one other than Gosman I'd rather see pitching for the Blue Jays right now. And you know, he's been up and down like he had a great start.

[Ben Limberger]

Against the Yankees and then against the Mariners. I mean, even when he had success against them, it was them kind of running into outs and making mistakes as much as it was anything like they.

[Meg Rowley]

They had decent production against him, they just didn't really convert that into runs, which is pretty important. But he does not seem at all not ready to rise to the moment.

[Ben Limberger]

Like he, he said, I mean, when.

[Meg Rowley]

He first came up and you know.

[Ben Limberger]

You'Re in the thick of a race.

[Meg Rowley]

For the AL east and, and they bring him up during that stretch run and he said, there are five year olds who play this game. I think that me at 22 years old, I can do it just fine.

[Ben Limberger]

Which, if you can have an attitude like that, I mean, yeah, there are five year olds who play the game.

[Meg Rowley]

They don't play it well and they.

[Ben Limberger]

Don'T, they don't play it with any real pressure or, you know, spotlight or attendance the way that a major league starter does. But if you can think of it that way, if you could get in that headspace where, hey, like I'm just playing with house money, a five year old could do this, what's no sweat, then that's great.

[Meg Rowley]

I think if you can somehow maintain that.

[Ben Limberger]

And another quote I saw from him, which I thought was relatable he said, I try to treat pressure as if it's not as high pressure as it.

[Meg Rowley]

Is mentally, which maybe sounds simplistic, but.

[Ben Limberger]

That'S sort of how I try to do it. I have not made a World Series.

[Meg Rowley]

Start, to be clear.

[Ben Limberger]

But, you know, we all have our. Our personal World Series start, I guess whatever the high pressure moment in our lives is. And it might feel almost as high pressure to you as something like that does to him, because, you know, you kind of adapt to your circumstances and your experience. So whatever things have scared in the past, that is kind of how I put that anxiety aside. Just, like, compartmentalize it a little bit. Just like, yeah, it exists. Like, it's. It's scary. Like, there is a part of me that is nervous, but I will just kind of act as if I'm not. I'll just sort of pretend and I'll hopefully fool everyone and I'll fool myself. And that's kind of how it works for me, to do things without being super nervous, or at least outwardly super nervous. Because I think most people, they're not.

[Meg Rowley]

Just completely impervious to pressure or anxiety. I'm sure some people are. And it varies. And, you know, you talk about, like, the pitchers with the slow heartbeats, that.

[Ben Limberger]

Kind of thing, which, like, sounds like.

[Meg Rowley]

It could be dangerous, but. But they mean it in terms of, you know, you're just not showing your fear so much.

[Ben Limberger]

But I think a lot of people do feel it. They're just able to bury it a little bit or put it aside or.

[Meg Rowley]

Just accept it, embrace it, perform despite feeling that thing.

[Ben Limberger]

You know, it's.

[Meg Rowley]

It's like people who talk about heroism or, you know, you're in combat or whatever. It's not like you're not terrified. It's just that you manage to function. You. You somehow just be of two minds, basically, where you're just not completely undone by that fear that you're feeling. But it's not as if you're feeling no fear.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I feel ill equipped to offer other people advice on how best to navigate anxiety without it being debilitating. Although, you know, I. I say that, but it's not like I don't get stuff done. I just feel pressed upon, like, the whole time I'm doing it. It doesn't matter. I think that it's a just tremendously valuable perspective for a pro athlete to have. Because you're right. Like, everybody has their pressures. Everybody faces, you know, personal tragedy or even just inconvenience. Everybody has work, stuff that goes sideways on them. You know, we all have our stuff. But as we've said many times on the podcast, like, when I have a goof at work, nobody knows that. I mean, like, the people I work with do, but like, you know, a random person in Toronto isn't aware of that fact, you know, and. And my mom's not sitting there watching me make the mistake. You know, she's so. It's just. It's a tremendously strange profession and it's a really, I would imagine, awkward thing to navigate and to be able to have sort of a look. This is hard. And I. It's not that it. You can't say it doesn't matter. Right? Like, sometimes athletes will take that approach. Like they're a little too cavalier. And it's like, well, I don't believe, you know, because no one could engage with this set of circumstances and really be as immune to the concept of pressure as you are. But I think that you're just trying to, you know, not have it overwhelm the moment. And that's easier said than done for some guys. If he's able to like, really have that perspective and live in it as like a 22 year old, my God. You know, but like, that's almost as impressive as the splitter.

[Ben Limberger]

I know. Yeah. You know, it's. It's hard to be the Dodgers, but.

[Meg Rowley]

It'S harder if you're beating yourself. So if you can somehow Wilson that. Yeah.

[Ben Limberger]

Well, if you could somehow lay that anxiety aside so that you are at least giving your peak performance and that may or may not be good enough.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Might not be enough, but.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, but at least you will know that you have put yourself in the best position to succeed.

[Ben Limberger]

And yeah, he's just an incredible story.

[Meg Rowley]

And there's been a lot said about.

[Ben Limberger]

The Dodgers versus Splitters. And it's the postseason of splitters. And you got Gosman Splitter, and you've got your Savages Splitter.

[Meg Rowley]

And the Dodgers have done perfectly fine against splitters this season, but they haven't faced them so much in the postseason.

[Ben Limberger]

So there's a lot of talk about that.

[Meg Rowley]

There's a lot of talk about the.

[Ben Limberger]

Small ball this postseason, all the intentional.

[Meg Rowley]

Walks and the bunting and the not running, though you sort of have to exclude stealing bases from the small ball. Cause that's just not happening. Not that these two teams are particularly adept or equipped for that anyway.

[Ben Limberger]

But, you know, I really like a.

[Meg Rowley]

Lot of angles of this, many of which you and other Ben discussed last time. But it. It stands out to me that there is kind of this, this underdog narrative.

[Ben Limberger]

Surrounding the Blue Jays, which makes sense, but probably wouldn't make sense against any other team.

[Meg Rowley]

It's like the Dodgers turn any opponent into an underdog because of their stretch of sustained success and because of the payroll and everything and because of the star power.

[Ben Limberger]

No one else can compare with that wattage. But the Blue Jays are kind of an unlikely underdog.

[Meg Rowley]

Like, I know that they, they haven't been back in the world series since 1993.

[Ben Limberger]

And, and there is that factor, but really, like, this is a top five payroll team that had a better record than the Dodge. Like, it's odd that you come into a series where the underdog has home field advantage.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right?

[Ben Limberger]

It's just like it doesn't seem like it should quite compute, and I agree that it does. I'm not arguing that the Blue Jays.

[Meg Rowley]

Are not underdogs or that the Dodgers are not favored in this series. I tend to think that because it's baseball, it's probably closer to 60, 40 or something than, you know, the typical people treating it as if it's over, it's automatic that the Dodgers will just steamroll right through them here.

[Ben Limberger]

But yeah, absolutely, the Dodgers are the.

[Meg Rowley]

Better team or, or should be favored to win the series. But the Pooches, they have star power.

[Ben Limberger]

You know, they can't quite compete with, with the Dodgers in that category. Who can? But they have flatty, who they signed to a half a billion dollar contract. Right? Like their top five payroll, big media markets, huge TV ratings because one out of every six Canadians is watching their ALCS games. Right? Like, it's just, you know, given that and their success and they won the.

[Meg Rowley]

AL east this year, they, they've, they've.

[Ben Limberger]

Had the best record in the league. Like, it's just a weird dynamic there where we talked about the brewers, underdog and kind of.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right.

[Ben Limberger]

Pumping that up and describing themselves as underdogs, which was also weird in a way because they had the best record in baseball this year. But, but, you know, you get it.

[Meg Rowley]

From a market size and payroll perspective much more than.

[Ben Limberger]

Than it applies to Toronto.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I think that to say that there isn't a gap would be disingenuous, but to make them out as like a David to the Dodgers Goliath is overstating the case too. I think our zips, game by game odds have it as a 60, 40 split. And that seems about right. From a true talent perspective, that seems about right. I think that you're right to note that The Blue Jays are top five payroll. There is a meaningful gap between the Dodgers and the next team down. But, like, it's not like they're not the Brewers. People are talking about them like they're the brewers and they're not the Brewers. Does that mean that they're gonna steamroll Los Angeles? I mean, no, but I think that this series is going to be a competitive one. And I. I think the other thing about it, and I'm gonna say this, and you're gonna go, well, that's a pretty big. That's a pretty big advantage to have concentrated mic. And I'm gonna. Yeah, buddy, I hear you. A lot of the advantage for Los Angeles is heavily concentrated in their rotation. Advantage. It is a meaningful advantage, right? Like, to be able to roll out this version of Snell and Yamamoto and Glasnow and Ohtani versus, like, you have two good starters in Toronto, and then, like, you know, Scherzer and Bieber, and you just don't know what you're going to get out of those guys. Right? Like, they could give you surprising length. We've seen. We saw that version of Bieber in the postseason, and then we saw the wobblier version, right? Is Scherzer going to be able. We saw this, the two versions of Scherzer in his start, in his same start, like that. So, you know, they are not equipped to go long in the same way. And you. You end up having sort of a multiplicative effect in terms of advantage, because not only can the Dodgers give you length, they can give you length in. In the face of having to rely on the weakest part of their roster, which is that bullpen, which unfortunately has had some turnover because Vessia is not available for this series. Probably Kasperius didn't make the postseason roster. Whatever is going on with Alex Vessia, I just wish the best for you and your family, buddy. But, you know, like, they are able to paper over some of their deficiencies by not having to hand the ball to the bullpen, potentially, until they're handing it to Roki. Whereas the Blue Jays, I can easily imagine Gaussman and you, Savage, going deep into that game. I also can imagine, like, Trey Savage walking a bunch of guys and getting into trouble. And even if those two guys go deep, you don't know that you're going to be able to do that with, you know, Scherzer and Bieber. And if Gaussman and you, Savage, can't go deep, well, then the. The bullpen is really exposed, you know, because it's just not a super strong group. You know, it's like Jeff Hoffman and his kids names. How's that not been a. It was Jeff Hoffman, right? It wasn't it Jeff Hoffman that had creative Spellings. Creative spelling.

[Ben Limberger]

Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, Creative. We're not issuing a judgment. We're not saying anything one way or the other. We're not making fun of children.

[Meg Rowley]

Yep.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Or their names.

[Ben Limberger]

Non standard.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, Non standard. I like creative. Non standard. Sounds more judgmental than creative to me.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah, it's true. We can stick with creative.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Creative. Yeah, it was like Creative spellings. But so again, like to say that there is a gap between these two clubs. Yeah, for sure. To say that it's, like, gonna be a cakewalk seems too dramatic to me. And that is the way that it's being talked about, you know, particularly since, like, George Springer seems fine now. I like if they had the version of George Springer that was playing in game six of the alcs. I really big trouble. And they have this wild card, which is Boba Shet. They're like, really? Just like, hey, Bo, you go get it, man. He's playing second base and I think bad and cleanup, like, okay, we're gonna see what we got with Bo, man. That.

[Ben Limberger]

That is.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That is. Again, confidence. That is some. It is confidence. I was like, you don't want to just, like, give him a DH day.

[Ben Limberger]

Good.

[Meg Rowley]

I know it's.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I mean, I guess you're gonna sip Barger against Snell anyway, or ikf. You're gonna. You're gonna sit IKF against Snell.

[Meg Rowley]

But, like, yeah, this is the thing that you and Ben did not know because it had not been announced yet when you recorded. I mean, you presumed that Bichette would be on the roster, but weren't sure exactly where he would fit in. And we're recording now after the game, one lineup was announced, and I'm just.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Grappling with it in its entirety.

[Ben Limberger]

Oh.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, boy. So you have Straw in there to play, right? Okay.

[Meg Rowley]

Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That's fun.

[Meg Rowley]

So we could. We could get the Miles Straw versus.

[Ben Limberger]

Roki Sasaki showdown that everyone's waiting for. The guy at the Bridges acquired in an effort to acquire Sasaki and ended up being more valuable than he was by a lot during the regular season at least, though Rookie is certainly proving his value now.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But yeah, you would set Barger against Bar. I always want to say Barger, but then I want to throw an extra syllable in there. Why do I want to do that?

[Ben Limberger]

I don't know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Barger. It's Barger. It's not Barger. It's not. It's Barger.

[Ben Limberger]

Just Barger.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And he also bats lefty.

[Ben Limberger]

So to have Bichette come back, which.

[Meg Rowley]

On paper, of course, you want Boba Shet. Why would you not want Boba Shet? I mean, it's weird.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You don't have IKF in there because he bats righty. What is happening to my brain, Ben?

[Ben Limberger]

It's been a long postseason, but for Bichette to come back and to be in the starting lineup as a second baseman, where, yeah, in theory, he should be equipped to play second base, he's not a shortstop, and so maybe that's a better place for him. Who knows? But to do it on the fly.

[Meg Rowley]

Like this, that is. He's never.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He's never played second base in the majors.

[Ben Limberger]

No, he hasn't played it since.

[Meg Rowley]

In the minors in 2019, for a game or so.

[Ben Limberger]

So, you know, he was taking some grounders the other day, and that was. So maybe that's just, you know, for flexibility, versatility. No, like, he. This was his idea.

[Meg Rowley]

He suggested that this would be a way to get him into the lineup. And.

[Ben Limberger]

And if he can do it, well. Well, then you. You get to keep Jimenez at short.

[Meg Rowley]

Which helps your defense, obviously, and you get to keep Clement in there at third, who's been, you know, I guess, maybe flat aside your.

[Ben Limberger]

Your best bat in probably in this. And then you do get to D.H. springer, which I don't. I don't know how advantageous that is. I don't know how his knee is doing and how mobile he is.

[Meg Rowley]

So I guess I think we maybe.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Have learned a little something about it by the two of them deciding to DH him. Right?

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Limberger]

If he were 100%, no restrictions whatsoever.

[Meg Rowley]

Then maybe you wouldn't need to do this. So maybe that does tell us something.

[Ben Limberger]

And so maybe that's your best defensive alignment if Boba feels comfortable there at second base.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So it's so fascinating because here's. I feel like I must explain the way that my brain misfired, because it is instructive to like how I view this team and how the Blue Jays view this team. So Toronto loves good defense. They have built their roster around the concept of it. They really like to be able to put their best defensive alignment on the field. I agree with them that Miles Straw is a better defender than Addison Barger, whose name I've never struggled to say and I never want to insert an extra syllable. It's because we were talking about Jeff Hoffman and His creatively spelled children's names.

[Ben Limberger]

Where would the extra syllable go?

[Ben Lindbergh]

I don't know. I want to make him like Barger. I don't know. I don't know, Ben. I don't know.

[Ben Limberger]

People occasionally call me Lindenberg. And, like, where did you get that extra syllable in there?

[Ben Lindbergh]

So, yeah, it's like they're making your name Lindbergh and Hindenburg at the same time. That's like, a really, honestly, terrifying combination of things. No, but so. So clearly they think, and I agree with them, that Miles Straw is a better peer defender than Addison Barger. But Addison Barger is a better hitter than Miles Straw, and so I'm just a little surprised. But also, Barger bats left, and you can't put IKF out there. You don't want that. So if you're locked in. The reason that my brain kind of went on a little spinning thing is because I was like, oh, well, they'll play against Snell. Surely they'll play ikf, who bats righty. And I've never gotten that wrong either. But I didn't remember that they're DHing Springer. So here's what they're telling us. They're telling us that Springer's knee is in 100%, but also that they just are really, like, prizing the defense. But then they're starting Bo. It's second. So I think that Springer's knee has to be a little goofy still, because I think that ideally, wouldn't you just rather. Wouldn't you just rather DH Bo first game back?

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah. You'd think just to. Yeah. Not throw him right into the deep.

[Ben Lindbergh]

End, but then you have to put Springer in the outfield if you do that, because it's not like you're not. You're not going to not play him. You're not going to not play him, Ben. You know.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Limberger]

Barger bets left in case anyone is confused.

[Meg Rowley]

And no, Barger bats left, throws left.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah. And his name is Barger.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So you would sit. You would normally sit Berger against Snell anyway. Fine. But I didn't. Ben. Ben, I didn't make. We were even talking about Bobichette playing second, but then I didn't. My brain didn't go to the. Well, that means that George Springer is the aging. So you need an outfielder. So you can't play. You're not going to play IKF out there. That would. That would be. That'd be bananas. So you're gonna play. So it's interesting. Well, but he is a better defender than Schneider anyway. This is Meg trying to remember stuff after she's been on. After she's been on the phone for like six hours today.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. A lot of.

[Ben Limberger]

A lot of talking. And some of us.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Barger. Barger. So easy. It's just an easy name to say. Barger. Say it all the time.

[Ben Limberger]

Even IKF has played some outfield. He could do it. He could play almost anything.

[Meg Rowley]

I don't know. But why would he.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I don't think he's very good out there.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So I've got in trouble for talking about IKF's defense in the past.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah. Not his, his outfield positional player ranking, but other positions that he has played.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Anyway, all that to say creative, interesting.

[Ben Limberger]

Much like the names, the spellings of Jeff Hoffman's kids.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, again, it's just maybe telling us something interesting about the state of. Of George Springer, you know, mostly it's maybe just telling us something interesting there. And especially relative to bo, you know.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. And there is some precedent for people.

[Ben Limberger]

Making their debut at a position in the postseason.

[Meg Rowley]

It's happened a few times.

[Ben Limberger]

It happened last year with.

[Meg Rowley]

With John Birdie, who played first base for the Yankees.

[Ben Limberger]

So there. This will be the fourth time that.

[Meg Rowley]

Someone has made their first career start at a fielding position, not counting pitcher or DH in the postseason. And, you know, this is, I guess, minimum 300 career regular season games because, of course, there are some players who have made their major league debuts in the postseason, but that's. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about playing a different position than the one you normally play in the majors. So it was John Birdie last year. Carlos Santana, who played left field for.

[Ben Limberger]

Cleveland for the first time in the majors back in 2016. I think he had played left field a little bit, but he hadn't started there. And then Jake flowers, back in 1931.

[Meg Rowley]

World Series, as we all recall, made his debut at the hot corner for the Cardinals name.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah, Big Boucher. So we'll see how he does. And it's also interesting, like on the eve of free agency, to switch positions like that. Like, I wonder if he's thinking of it as this could only help me because I'm showing my versatility and my flexibility and my willingness to play other places.

[Meg Rowley]

It's kind of like when Alex Bregman was a free agent.

[Ben Limberger]

He's like, you know, I'll play second, I'll play whatever.

[Meg Rowley]

But then again, if you're a shortstop.

[Ben Limberger]

Many players are pretty precious about that.

[Meg Rowley]

Then they want to keep Playing shortstop because you think your value would be higher there. I could sign my big long term deal. Like, I don't want people to think of me as a second baseman when I'm about to hit the free agent market, even if maybe they already do.

[Ben Limberger]

Because of how you play shortstop and how, how long you'll be able to. But that's interesting. I don't know whether he's even weighing.

[Meg Rowley]

That because right now his focus is.

[Ben Limberger]

Probably on winning the World Series and.

[Meg Rowley]

Then winning free agency.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I suspect that his primary, to the extent that he's thought about it, the thing that he might really be prioritizing is just demonstrating that he's healthy. But if I were Bo, I would. I don't know. I don't know if I'd rather play a shaky second base, but show that I'm healthy enough to play in the field. And like, I don't think anyone's worried that his injury issue is long term, but I do think that people have long term concern about Bo playing shortstop, which they should. And he will be buoyed somewhat by the fact that you, you know, he had a good year at the plate after not. And the shortstop market is just so shallow. It's like not very many guys at all. Especially if people are like, yeah, Alex Bregman, you are a third baseman, not a shortstop. Sometimes he was like, maybe I'm a shortstop. And they're like, no, I don't think so.

[Ben Limberger]

I am somewhat surprised by that.

[Meg Rowley]

But that will be something to watch.

[Ben Limberger]

In this game, which is over by the time you're hearing this or throughout the series, perhaps. Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Everybody think, okay, here are your two reactions. Oh, my God, I can't believe the amazing play that Bo made. And then here's the other one. Oh, my God, what a terrible error.

[Ben Limberger]

That was a bad idea. Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

What will they do? But they'll get six more? Theoretically, yes.

[Meg Rowley]

And we'll see whether the old axiom about the ball will find you. We'll see whether. Whether that happens. Right. Whether, like the first batted ball is to bow or some crucial batted ball is hit to bow in some high leverage situation, whether that old saying is proven out or not. And I am curious to see something that will have already happened, which is, does Blake Snell continue this very recent run of efficiency and going deep into games?

[Ben Lindbergh]

A Blake Snell game for the live stream. I can't.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah, but it's not the old black Snell.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, that's what you think.

[Ben Limberger]

We'll see if he devolves back into the old Blake Snow.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But we end up with a post game, I'm going to be furious.

[Ben Limberger]

Well, the pitch clock does put sub limits on Blake Snell. He tests them by just throwing more pitches historically, because you can't stop that. You can put a limit on how long he can take between pitches, but.

[Meg Rowley]

You can't force him not to throw many pitches.

[Ben Limberger]

But he has changed that himself. And I don't want to overstate it.

[Meg Rowley]

Of course, like, you know, this season he was still Sable Blake Snell a lot of the time. And in previous seasons, he'd actually gone deeper into games on average in previous seasons. And it's just, you know, it depends.

[Ben Limberger]

Like, if he's hurt or, or at less than 100% capacity or if he's.

[Meg Rowley]

At his best when he is basically the best. And just this post season run where he's gone 6, 7, 8 and is throwing more pitches in the strike zone, you know, he's not like the ultimate strike zone pounder, but relative to his past performance, he is showing a greater.

[Ben Limberger]

Willingness to be more efficient and, you.

[Meg Rowley]

Know, get some kind of contact. And, and as I always say, like, pitching to contact is not necessarily the same as being efficient because it's good to get strikeouts because when people put.

[Ben Limberger]

The ball in play, sometimes those balls in play become hits and then you have to face someone else. You didn't get it out at all. But yeah, he's. He's been nibbling a little less lately.

[Meg Rowley]

And we'll see if that continues and.

[Ben Limberger]

We'Ll see if the Blue Jays help him out because as Ben noted last.

[Meg Rowley]

Time, they've been very aggressive. They were fourth in pitches per play.

[Ben Limberger]

Appearance in the regular season among all lineups this year.

[Meg Rowley]

And they've been first by a lot in this postseason. So that does matter, with the Dodgers.

[Ben Limberger]

Bullpen being just like an almost entirely.

[Meg Rowley]

Theoretical weakness so far. Like, it's a real weakness and yet.

[Ben Limberger]

It has not been exposed at all.

[Meg Rowley]

And I wrote about this and, you know, I've been harping on just how much starting pitcher in relief action we've gotten this postseason.

[Ben Limberger]

And I ran the numbers on that and. And thus far it would be unprecedented in the wild card era the percentage of relief innings this postseason pitched by guys who were primarily starting pitchers in the regular season. And it's the Dodgers and the brewers.

[Meg Rowley]

Did that most of all, and the Cubs to some extent. And it's, you know, partly like bulk guys and that kind of thing and extra inning games and emergency starter action. But it's not just that.

[Ben Limberger]

And for the DOD Dodgers, it's the plan.

[Meg Rowley]

And they've been able to pursue and.

[Ben Limberger]

Execute that plan perfectly because they've had 70% of their innings thrown by their starting pitchers, which is their strength, and then most of their relief innings, also.

[Meg Rowley]

Thrown by starting pitchers, primarily Roki Sasaki.

[Ben Limberger]

And then it's like the remaining out of 14 or 16% or something, it's.

[Meg Rowley]

A very small number of their innings have actually been thrown by real relievers. And if they can continue to make that the case, then that would bode very well for them in this series. And if the Blue Jays bats, help them out by making quick outs, obviously if they're aggressive and they aggressively get.

[Ben Limberger]

Hits and runs, that's perfectly fine.

[Meg Rowley]

But if, as was the case in.

[Ben Limberger]

A couple of the games and in.

[Meg Rowley]

Previous series, they make quick outs, then that's not going to be good for. I mean, that's obviously not good. That's like self evidently not good.

[Ben Limberger]

But it's particularly not good against the.

[Meg Rowley]

Dodgers because that will play right into their hands.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, it makes one of your primary strengths into a weakness if what it means is extending how many times you're seeing Snell, how many times you're seeing Yamamoto, et cetera. You know, especially if you're Addison Barger who bats lefty, unlike Isaiah Kiner Falafa, who bites. Sometimes you just have to. To like, get ahead of people being like, hey, you dummy. You know, just to like satisfy them and just say like, no, it's just like a little misfire in my brain. Because of course Springer's DHing. If Bo Bashet is playing second base, he can't have two DHs and he's not gonna. So anyway, I just.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Sometimes I feel self conscious. Anyway, it's.

[Meg Rowley]

It's okay. Just put it out of your mind.

[Ben Limberger]

Like.

[Ben Lindbergh]

See, I need to. Right. I was gonna say I need to. I need to be like Trey. I need to be like. I wouldn't be 22 again, though. I wouldn't be 22 again for anything in the whole wide world. You know, it's.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The thing, the thing they tell. The thing they don't tell you about your 30s that I just wish I could impress upon people in their 20s is that, like, they are generally really great, except for the fact that you have to worry about back pain, maybe.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But you're settled. You're settled in yourself. It's really nice.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

I feel like I've been the same person forever. I don't.

[Ben Limberger]

I don't know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, but you're less anxious than I am. So, like, that makes sense.

[Ben Limberger]

As someone who, like, professionally covers baseball.

[Meg Rowley]

And video games and Star wars and.

[Ben Limberger]

Stuff, to some extent, I feel like I never quite grew up where I.

[Meg Rowley]

Grew up when I was a kid or something. Old soul. I don't know. I was always into older stuff and. And I look back and I. I rarely think, like, I was so young. How could I have thought that? How could I have acted that way?

[Ben Limberger]

I just, I feel like.

[Meg Rowley]

Been sort of the same. I know a lot of people feel.

[Ben Limberger]

Younger than they are.

[Meg Rowley]

Like, there's been a lot written about that. Like you feel like your. Your mental age is some degree younger.

[Ben Limberger]

Than your physical age. But I just. I feel kind of like I would.

[Meg Rowley]

Get along with my younger selves if I was hanging out with. With kid Ben or adolescent Ben or young adult Ben. We'd basically be on the same page.

[Ben Limberger]

Because I've been sort of. I don't know, maybe I'm deceiving myself.

[Meg Rowley]

And that's not actually the case. And I would find my younger selves to be intolerable or. Or cringy or something. I'm sure that's true to some extent. But, yeah, I don't know. I don't lament my misspent youth any more than I lament my adulthood, I guess.

[Ben Limberger]

So maybe they could both be misspent, but probably in the same sort of way.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That's the. That's the spirit.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah. So I do think that the. As I was saying, the. The underdog narrative, it is sort of.

[Meg Rowley]

Silly, but it's also sensible because it's.

[Ben Limberger]

Just that the Dodgers, anyone is an.

[Meg Rowley]

Underdog compared to the Dodgers. The Blue Jays, I think a lot less than most opponents would be, but there is still some element of truth to it. And there's been a lot said about.

[Ben Limberger]

How the Blue Jays made a run at. At Shohei and at Sasaki.

[Meg Rowley]

And now the Dodgers got them, and now they're gonna face the Blue Jays. And absolutely everyone made the joke about Shohei Ohtani being on a plane to Toronto, etc, but the fact that the Blue Jays were finalists for. Those guys are really made aggressive runs at them.

[Ben Limberger]

That's sort of what I'm saying because, like, most teams weren't really ever in.

[Meg Rowley]

The running for those guys. Like, they weren't gonna pony up the money for Ohtani.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right.

[Meg Rowley]

Or they just did not make as.

[Ben Limberger]

Compelling a pitch as they evidently did to Sasaki. And so, yes, there is a meaningful difference because the Dodgers actually landed those.

[Meg Rowley]

Guys and the Blue Jays Didn't. And the Dodgers have the number one payroll with a bullet and the Blue Jays are top five. But there's a big difference between number five and number one.

[Ben Limberger]

There's a big difference between signing Roki Sasaki and Shohei Ohtani and coming close ish to signing them as Blue Jays fans discovered. But there's a pretty short list of teams that were ever really in the.

[Meg Rowley]

Running for those guys made a really aggressive effort or had the financial resources to make a play and the Blue.

[Ben Limberger]

Jays are in that group.

[Meg Rowley]

That's all I'm saying. You know, so it's, it's not really a haves and have nots kind of differential. It's have most versus have a lot.

[Ben Limberger]

So it's, it's a meaningful distinction certainly.

[Meg Rowley]

But yeah, it could be much bigger if it were virtually any other team except, I don't know, the Yankees or someone.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I mean, there's like a definite gap, but you're right, like they're in a conversation that a lot of other teams aren't in from like a competing for free agents perspective. And I know that they had a lot of disappointments, sort of hyper, hyper concentrated in a way that made it feel like there was something like wrong with the franchise or, or what have you. And you know, maybe there is, you know, maybe they need to work on their pitch a little bit. But I also just think that the particular alchemy of the Dodgers, plus like high profile, either international free agents immediately coming over from Japan or guys like Ohtani on their second stop, like, like there is something about that combination that is so specific to the Dodgers. And that isn't to say that like every Japanese player who comes over is going to sign with la. I mean, if nothing else, like they, again, they do have roster constraints just like everybody else. Right. They can only have 26 guys up there. But I do think that it is useful to keep in mind that like they, they really do seem to do well in that market. And it's a combination of like the existing concentration of players from Japan on their roster, the way that some of those guys grew up Dodger fans. And then like you do kind of get like a snowballing effect where it's like, okay, we are able to offer something from a, you know, endorsement perspective, what have you, that seems pretty, not unique, but, but special and, and well positioned there. So I don't know. It's not that it doesn't mean anything, it's just that it maybe doesn't mean quite the things that people want it to. Or think it does. I don't know. And gosh, some of it too, is just like. There's just some bad reporting that happened there, unfortunately. And so how close was it really?

[Ben Limberger]

I don't know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I don't know the answer to that.

[Ben Limberger]

That's a valid question, too. Yeah. And the Dodgers can only roster 26 players on their active roster. They can.

[Meg Rowley]

Couldn't afford to have basically like half a team of highly paid players on the il.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, yeah, they don't.

[Meg Rowley]

They don't have more IL spots than anyone else.

[Ben Limberger]

It's just that they. They tend to have higher salaries on the IL for a lot of the.

[Meg Rowley]

Season than most teams do. And yeah, that's true. That perhaps being a finalist for those guys, there was some question about, like, is that a distinction without a difference.

[Ben Limberger]

To be a finalist versus not a finalist? How close was it actually? Really? Are you deluding yourself or is it some kind of confusing or inaccurate reporting about how close it actually was?

[Meg Rowley]

But yeah, and.

[Ben Limberger]

And really there's a difference because there's.

[Meg Rowley]

Been a lot of conversation about does the Dodgers location, not just their geographic location, but also that. Does that give them a leg up, especially when it came to the Japanese.

[Ben Limberger]

Players who would have a shorter travel time, but also just the big market and the endorsement deals and all of that.

[Meg Rowley]

Not that Toronto is not also a big market, but Blue Jays, there's been the conversation about, does this hurt them? Is this an extra hurdle, their location? Because they have had a hard time persuading some of the top free agents.

[Ben Limberger]

To sign just because it's a different country and it's a different currency and whatever else. Right.

[Meg Rowley]

And so at times it seems as if they have a harder recruiting pitch.

[Ben Limberger]

And the Dodgers have an easier recruiting pitch. But the Blue Jays, to their credit, they still just do keep going out there.

[Meg Rowley]

And if they miss out on their.

[Ben Limberger]

Top target or their number two target or their number three target, as the case may be, then they will sign someone. They'll go get someone. And granted, it's. It's not as if they're here really, because when they failed to sign some.

[Meg Rowley]

Of those top targets, they then pivoted to backup plans. They signed Anthony Santander or Max Scherzer or whoever it is, and Jeff Hoffman. Hoffman's obviously played an important role in the postseason after a kind of iffy regular season.

[Ben Limberger]

Some of those other guys they signed didn't do that much to contribute to them getting here. They weren't really core contributors, and so. But they did show a willingness to say, well, we missed out on this guy, we'll at least not just put that money in the bank and gain interest. We'll actually go spend it on some guys. And I guess that's not always super advisable.

[Meg Rowley]

If like you miss out on the elite target, is it best to then.

[Ben Limberger]

Say, well, we'll, we'll settle for the consolation, we'll go get Anthony Santander. Which hasn't worked out super well for them thus far.

[Meg Rowley]

But you know, like, is it, is it good to still splash around in that pool of the lower tier of.

[Ben Limberger]

Free agents who maybe aren't giving you that same kind of elite value for the elite dollars that the top tier guys command?

[Meg Rowley]

But I do appreciate and respect that when they miss out on someone like that, they're not just like, oh well.

[Ben Limberger]

I guess we're not gonna go get anyway.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, right.

[Ben Limberger]

Because like you've signaled that you have the money to spend.

[Meg Rowley]

Everyone knows that now. And so you do have to spend.

[Ben Limberger]

Some and maybe some you spend on.

[Meg Rowley]

Vlad and you keep him. So that's pretty important too.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I think that there are a lot of ways to do it and I do think it's always useful for teams to be engaged in some amount of self reflection about how do they approach those conversations with free agents, how do they position themselves relative to other teams, what kind of case are they able to make about their player development. But I do think that sometimes we overreact to individual free agent classes. You know, some of it is just like there are so many things that go into that decision for the player and a lot of it's going to come down to money, but it's not all going to be that like, yeah, maybe, maybe some years, the, the fact that it's another country in another currency is a disadvantage. Maybe there are going to be years here where it not being here is good for them. From her coding perspective. Right. Like, you know, these things aren't, they are often changing at all at the same time. And so I do think that you want to be self reflective and you want to put a good pitch together and you know, how you fit all the pieces of your organization together, the reputation you have in other parts of the club, they are going to matter to guys. But I think that it seems obvious that the Blue Jays are willing to satisfy the money piece of it, which is still gonna be the biggest piece for a lot of guys. And so I don't think that it's, you know, necessarily just positive on their success for them to like lose out on individual cases. You know what I'm trying to say?

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah. And I do enjoy that this feels like such a global World Series in terms of the interest, just to a greater extent, because of course, you have.

[Meg Rowley]

Two countries directly involved here, but it.

[Ben Limberger]

Feels like you have three because the Japanese audience is just. It's so huge. As long as these Dodgers are involved and as long as.

[Meg Rowley]

And Yamamoto are starting games and Sasaki, in theory, is closing them, the ratings.

[Ben Limberger]

There have been huge. The ratings in Canada per capita have been huge.

[Meg Rowley]

And then you have your. Your usual US Audience. So it's.

[Ben Limberger]

But it does feel like just more people, more countries all over the world.

[Meg Rowley]

Are just really plugged into this series.

[Ben Limberger]

And that's nice. You know, it's not like it's going.

[Meg Rowley]

To affect whether we watch or not.

[Ben Limberger]

We'll be watching regardless. But it is nice to feel like more people are in on it. It's a communal experience.

[Meg Rowley]

So I'm excited about that. And obviously MLB is too, because we've been receiving press releases about how great the ratings have been.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Can we talk about one thing, though? This is so unimportant, but you are much more tapped into music than I am. I like music. This is an anti music take, but I would say that you listen very broadly, even though you have tended to start to tack toward things that you're familiar with because you're in your 30s. And I don't want to be disrespectful because it could be that I know he's also a producer. It's not just him as a musical artist. What is the league's understanding of, like, where Pharrell sits in the musical landscape at this juncture? Because I feel like this is confusing. He is on their official commercials. He's performing before game one of. Of the World Series. What's up with that, Ben? Because it feels like a recession indicator to me. And like the ads. The ads where he's like, like directing the choir and they sing beautifully. Beautifully. And you got the whole orchestra. But it just feels very, like. It feels very 2008 coded to me in a way that makes me nervous about, like, the housing market. So what's going on? What's going on? Yeah, it's what's happening.

[Ben Limberger]

I guess his. His star power is probably past its zenith.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I suppose we could say that it's non existent. No, it's not that it's. It's non existent. It's also seems like.

[Ben Limberger]

Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Very well known. Such a, you know, and a very important, like, he. His Career is storied. But, like, isn't he mostly just like, on the Voice now?

[Ben Limberger]

Well, a lot of people watch that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So I don't understand that either. Sorry for swear. I understand it more than whatever. What's the masked singer? I don't care for that. The ads for that. I haven't for a long time. It just feels like, what are we doing? This is like Hunger Games. I. I just. You know, I'm just like. Anyway, I don't understand. We got a whole press release about it when they were like, here's the sneak peek at Pharrell's new commercial. And then. And then they. And now I'm feeling nervous that I'm saying Pharrell wrong. Like I was trying to say Addison Barger's name. Weird.

[Ben Limberger]

It's Pharrell.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right?

[Ben Limberger]

Is feral all along. No.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. No, it's not that. It's Pharrell.

[Meg Rowley]

Okay.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, thank God. And so I'm just. I'm just like. I'm a little. I'm a little perplexed because, like, I think that, you know, some of his. And again, he has produced more recently, I think. But it's like, wasn't. Wasn't his most recent, like, very famous song, that happy song from.

[Ben Limberger]

And that was everywhere and to some extent still is. But that was torturous 12 years ago, right? Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And then it's like. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's like, yeah.

[Ben Limberger]

That made me happy. But sure.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The first time you heard it.

[Ben Limberger]

Well, yes, he is a 52 year old man. It's true. I mean, it's.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I mean, baseball.

[Ben Limberger]

He does. So maybe it's. You want someone baseball audience has heard of? I don't know. But.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And he's not wearing the hats anymore.

[Ben Limberger]

Like, got a press release about the Jonas Brothers performing as well. So, look, I mean, I don't know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Maybe I'm. I'm about to feel really bad about who the Jonas Brothers are.

[Ben Limberger]

Hold on, hold on.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Let's. Let's have this primal screen.

[Ben Limberger]

They've been with us as a society for. For quite some time.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They're younger than me. Oh, no, no. Ben, there are they. They're all younger than me. Oh, no.

[Meg Rowley]

Oh, no.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Look, I thought they were gonna be old and that was gonna feel bad, but no, them being younger feels worse for else.

[Ben Limberger]

Look, he's an A lister, I think. You know, is. Is he an A plus lister? Perhaps not. And is he at his peak? Perhaps not. But I don't think it's a bad get. I get what you're saying about the cultural relevance. But then I suppose you could say the same about Major League Baseball. So I don't know, maybe we're. We're past the point where MLB is.

[Meg Rowley]

Getting Bad Bunny in the all Star celebrity softball game. Like, he's leveled up.

[Ben Limberger]

He's the halftime show performer.

[Meg Rowley]

So maybe now MLB is going to get Pharrell. But look, I'm not unhappy about it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I don't think. I just. It just feels like, again, it feels recession code. And some of it is like the, like the, you know, bringing in the, like the big orchestral number with the gospel choir. Gospel choirs are amazing, but you know what I'm saying, There's like a particular musical aesthetic that it feels like it's emulating, and it is not one that is like, super, well of the moment.

[Ben Limberger]

Like, I guess baseball is in a.

[Meg Rowley]

Recession in a sense, over a long enough time frame.

[Ben Limberger]

I think in recent years, it's businesses booming. Things are picking up.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The youngest Jonas brothers, like, 33. Ben. No, wait.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, no, there's a super young. Wait, isn't there like a super young Nick?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Jonas is only 33. I don't care for that at all. I don't care for that at all.

[Meg Rowley]

Well, I'm sorry that you had to be confused because there's. There's Frankie. Frankie's in his 20s.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But who is Frankie? What did Frankie ever do?

[Ben Limberger]

It's the other. The other. Not. Not one of the originals, but the next.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But he is related to them.

[Ben Limberger]

Yes, he is a Jonas brother, but just was not one of the Jonas Brothers.

[Meg Rowley]

Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, it's not generous for them to have pictures of him as a little kid on his Wikipedia. That feels mean.

[Ben Limberger]

Well, now you know about Frankie Jonas. At least we didn't get a MLB.

[Meg Rowley]

Press release about Frankie Jonas performing at the national anthem. That might have been a step down. Okay, so we will reconvene to talk about the first two or three games of the series sometime early next week. I am very much looking forward to it.

[Ben Limberger]

One thing that you and. And Ben touched on, you know, the. The Google AI ads, the baseball themed ads are the plate taps. Is that real, is my question? Because I think there's questions.

[Meg Rowley]

It's like, is this a good stat to highlight? Which is primarily what you and Ben talked about, just, like, how frivolous it is. And, like, this is not actual actionable information. This is not really sabermetrics. You know, you have this fancy technology and you're using it on. On something so seemingly insignificant.

[Ben Limberger]

But the first time I Saw that.

[Meg Rowley]

And the next 10 times, I wasn't totally sure if this was like a joke. Was this like satire or was this just kind of like a. A fake? Like a hypothetical illustration of, of what.

[Ben Limberger]

You could do with. With AI from Google Cloud or whatever.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Are you asking if they really track bat taps with statcast?

[Ben Limberger]

That's what I'm asking. I mean, it's not something you can.

[Meg Rowley]

Look up on baseball savant, but I assume that that's real. Like when they say that 125 hitters tapped home plate in last year's postseason and they compare the hard hit rates of the tappers versus the non tappers, I assume that they are actually investigating that. Right. Like that they actually tracked the bat taps. This is not just, we could look.

[Ben Limberger]

This up or imagine if we could. This is the kind of thing you can do because, like, we can't look that up. But I assume that that is accessible to them, which, which actually sort of.

[Meg Rowley]

Impresses me in a way because it's.

[Ben Limberger]

Not as if the bat tracking tech.

[Meg Rowley]

Was designed to track whether you tap the bat. It's more about the swing and the.

[Ben Limberger]

Trajectory of the swing. And so it actually, it sort of.

[Meg Rowley]

Surprises and impresses me that they could capture bat taps.

[Ben Limberger]

I guess it makes sense, but it.

[Meg Rowley]

But that's probably like a bespoke query. Like, that's probably not something that's in the database. And they had to do some special analysis, which is probably why it's restricted to last postseason. I guess maybe they had to do it, or maybe they even kind of fudged it and did it in a more manual way to make it seem.

[Ben Limberger]

Like this is more advanced than it is. Because I think that that is actually kind of a cool stat. Like, as you were saying, it could be cool. If that's your, your number one illustration of the power of this thing, then maybe it's misapplied.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, dopey.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. If you're trying to tell people that this is meaningful in some sense, if you're implying that you, you have a higher hard hit rate if you tap your bat beforehand, then that's misleading. But I do think that it's. It's cool in a fun toy way. And so if they leaned into that.

[Ben Limberger]

If they were just like, look, we can track. Because you were kind of questioning whether it's real, like with the players hopping over the foul line.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right? I don't.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Limberger]

And so that's what I want to know.

[Meg Rowley]

Like, is this actual data? Like, is, is this made up? Is this Imaginary.

[Ben Limberger]

Like, imagine if we could do this, or this is the kind of thing.

[Meg Rowley]

We could do, but we didn't actually do it. Or is it real?

[Ben Limberger]

Because if it is real, then that is something that would have blown my.

[Meg Rowley]

Mind at one point. If you had told me we could.

[Ben Limberger]

Actually track the tapping of home plate or the leaping over the foul line. That would be really cool.

[Meg Rowley]

That's not like, great analysis, really, but it is sort of eye opening. Like, I might not know how often hitters tap the bat. That's kind of a quirky, fun thing.

[Ben Limberger]

To know and also just a cool demonstration of the potential of the technology because if you can track the bat.

[Meg Rowley]

Taps, then you can track a lot of other things, like the swings that.

[Ben Limberger]

Are maybe more meaningful. But it's. It's a cool flex. It's not even a weird flex. It's a. It's a fun flex. I think to say we could track this because everything is trackable, that's something that would have impressed me in sort.

[Meg Rowley]

Of a sci fi way and maybe.

[Ben Limberger]

Also kind of a dystopian Big brother way, but more in the fun sci fi way. So that's what I'm wondering about.

[Meg Rowley]

Like, is this sincere? Is this genuine and legitimate data?

[Ben Limberger]

Because if it is, then I think.

[Meg Rowley]

That'S kind of fun, even if it's not meaningful.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I think it's fun even if it's not meaningful. I do agree. I do agree with that.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I have a text out to ask the question about. I've been told that if the question were answered truthfully, that the person I asked would end up at a black site somewhere. And so we'll just never know. We'll just never know.

[Ben Limberger]

See, that's. That's the question that lingers in my mind when I see those ads. And that's part of what frustrates me.

[Meg Rowley]

About them, is that I can't tell.

[Ben Limberger]

If this is completely on the level.

[Meg Rowley]

Or not, but if it.

[Ben Limberger]

If it were, I'd allow it and I would welcome it, even. But I can't tell if they're being truth serious. Yeah, Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I don't know the answer to that. I mean, I. Look, I have long been an advocate for the notion that if we could query more things, it would be. Be great and delightful fun. You know, I, I back in the day had a whole series at BP about like the things that I wish we could query, but I don't know was just a mystery.

[Ben Limberger]

Yep. Okay, so we will see if the Blue Jays win, there must win. Like you, you can't have a headline.

[Meg Rowley]

In the most circulated paper in a.

[Ben Limberger]

Country that's just like game one of.

[Meg Rowley]

The World Series is pretty important for the Blue Jays. Like, like that probably wouldn't work as a headline. So I just.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They'd probably be like, hey, try harder on that.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah. Have a more original or insightful angle.

[Meg Rowley]

I don't know that it being a must win is more insightful, but it is bolder and it is more attention getting and that's one of the purposes of a headline.

[Ben Limberger]

And we'll see how Boba Shet's Mickey Stanley act goes. I don't know whether this is actually more or less impressive than Mickey Stanley famously.

[Meg Rowley]

1968 World Series. He's a center fielder and he plays shortstop in that series.

[Ben Limberger]

And that sounds on the surface harder than what Bichette is doing here because it's shortstop and he hadn't really played it before and that was like.

[Meg Rowley]

So they wanted to get like Al.

[Ben Limberger]

Kaline in the outfield. I guess that would be the comp here. And so he played shortstop, but he did have a little bit of a run up to that. He had a trial period.

[Meg Rowley]

I think he played like nine games at shortstop at the end of the regular season. And that was. Was 68. That was the last year before there was such a thing as a pre World Series playoff round. So you just jumped right into the World Series. But he, he did demo that in the regular season beforehand.

[Ben Limberger]

So it was a late season transition. But it was not actually happening in the World Series. Which makes it a little less impressive to me, but more impressive because shortstop.

[Meg Rowley]

Anyway, we'll talk about all of that before we close.

[Ben Limberger]

Just wanted to ask your opinion about.

[Meg Rowley]

A couple of managerial moves.

[Ben Limberger]

We had a couple of hirings by California teams while I was in California.

[Meg Rowley]

No connection there.

[Ben Limberger]

The Angels, who just seem to have Angels up this managerial hiring process in a number of ways because it was.

[Meg Rowley]

Widely reported that Albert Pujols was the favorite for that job, that he was the top choice and of course played.

[Ben Limberger]

For the Angels, had that personal services contract with them, perhaps still does. And so they interview him and then they end up hiring Kurt Suzuki and Kurt Suzuki in addition to his backup catching career.

[Meg Rowley]

Probably the indelible image is him being.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Just wants to make the Angels. That's all he can do.

[Meg Rowley]

Yes. Warmly embraced by President Trump in his first term when the Nationals visited after winning that World Series.

[Ben Limberger]

But he doesn't have a whole lot of highlights as a coach or manager because he's never been one. So Maybe that's why that image has circulated so much.

[Meg Rowley]

I mean it would have anyway. But we haven't really seen Suzuki around.

[Ben Limberger]

I mean he's been around, but he, he hasn't coached, he hasn't managed.

[Meg Rowley]

And I don't know that he was.

[Ben Limberger]

Like widely discussed as a top managerial prospect even though he was a catcher. So they sign him and I guess.

[Meg Rowley]

It happens often that there is reported to be a first choice and the eventual choice is not the first ch voice. And so you know that and maybe it's kind of awkward.

[Ben Limberger]

The other thing though is that reportedly.

[Meg Rowley]

At least the reason the Angels moved on from Pujols or he moved on from them was money. That.

[Ben Limberger]

That was sort of the sticking point.

[Meg Rowley]

Money and. Or years.

[Ben Limberger]

And then they signed Suzuki to a one year deal, which is unusual, I guess.

[Meg Rowley]

Back to our conversations.

[Ben Limberger]

Creative. It's non standard. I'm a little less complimentary about it.

[Meg Rowley]

In this case because.

[Ben Limberger]

Because one year deal. When you hire a manager, it's like usually you don't hire a manager who is instantly a lame duck. That's just a nod.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So Angels.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah, it's. It is so Angels.

[Meg Rowley]

It really is.

[Ben Limberger]

And there is the whole. So you say. Kikuchi came out with a recent interview talking to Japanese reporters and he said.

[Meg Rowley]

That the Angels air conditioner was broken.

[Ben Limberger]

In the weight room.

[Meg Rowley]

And so he was constantly like drenched in sweat and like cramping and it affected his pitching and he asked them to fix it and they didn't fix it.

[Ben Limberger]

That's what he said.

[Meg Rowley]

And then Sam Blum was talking to perrymanassian Angels GM who denied it and just said everything is fine, you know, nothing to see here. Basically like, everything's okay, the air conditioner is perfectly fine. And then later that day the Angels.

[Ben Limberger]

Put a job listing up for an H VAC technician. Just like maybe that was completely unconnected, but the timing of it was just unbelievable. So that on top of this hiring seemingly being dictated, at least in large.

[Meg Rowley]

Part by not wanting to commit to.

[Ben Limberger]

A manager for more than a year, like I don't know what Albert Pujols's request was and maybe we'll find out.

[Meg Rowley]

Because he's still interviewing for other games here year.

[Ben Limberger]

It's odd because on the one hand.

[Meg Rowley]

Pujol's made $350 million as a player, not counting endorsement deals, not counting personal.

[Ben Limberger]

Services, contracts, et cetera.

[Meg Rowley]

So in theory he shouldn't really need.

[Ben Limberger]

To make that much money as a manager. But also, I assume there's sort of.

[Meg Rowley]

A level of Respect that he wants and believes he commands. And one way respect can be expressed is through money. Sure.

[Ben Limberger]

And maybe this is just Artie cheaping.

[Meg Rowley]

Out the way that Artie Moreno tends.

[Ben Limberger]

To do where historically he has signed players to big contracts, including Upper Pujols. But then he skimps on everything that could make that organization better or more desirable, whether it was minor league conditions and nutrition in the past to possibly this air conditioner, to just technology and.

[Meg Rowley]

Developmental architecture and infrastructure.

[Ben Limberger]

And now maybe sort of cheaping out on a manager too, and just playing such an active role and meddling constantly. It just seems rudderless.

[Meg Rowley]

And obviously there's a ton of negative publicity surrounding the Angels right now with the Skaggs case that is is working its way through the court and, you know, Mike Trout testifying and other officials from the team testifying in the. The Tower Skagg's case. And just having that all be aired now does not reflect well on really anyone or anything in that situation. The whole thing is sad, but usually.

[Ben Limberger]

You hire a manager and you want.

[Meg Rowley]

That to be a big moment.

[Ben Limberger]

It's like, okay, new direction, fresh voice. We're all on the same page. This is what we're doing. Turning over a new leaf. And instead it just feels like they.

[Meg Rowley]

Somehow backed into this in the most Angels way imaginable.

[Ben Lindbergh]

One of my main takeaways from all of this was that, like, pool holes is managerial ambitions were maybe more serious than I was giving them credit for. Right. Because, you know, you could imagine it being like a soft landing as your first. As your first gig. Now I want to. I want to distinguish Albert Pools from Suzuki in this way, which is like, Pools wasn't managed in Winter Ball. Like, Pools went and did work to try to, like, get experience in that role in a way that I think outstrips. Outstripes out. Why can't I speak today? I mean, in my defense, I've already talked a lot today.

[Ben Limberger]

Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And you might think to yourself, don't you talk a lot? Every day, Meg. And you're so full of funny jokes, aren't ya? Out stripes.

[Ben Limberger]

Strips.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Out strips. Out strips.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah, yeah, that's the word.

[Ben Lindbergh]

This is a read it never read it, never said it sort of situation.

[Ben Limberger]

Out.

[Meg Rowley]

Out. Striped should be applied to Blake Snell's fashion line.

[Ben Limberger]

Did you see Blake Snell's? He is a. I guess a fashion designer.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Have you heard him rapping?

[Meg Rowley]

No, I did not.

[Ben Limberger]

I must have missed that. But I did catch his pants.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He has a line of pants.

[Ben Limberger]

He does.

[Meg Rowley]

He has a line for himself. I For anyone. I think anyone can be wearing Blake Snell if they would like to.

[Ben Limberger]

But it's like, I would say that his pants have outstriped themselves because they have stripes.

[Meg Rowley]

Onto a link, please do.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I do need to see these pants.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Limberger]

I will link to this on the show page. So there's a top, I guess there's the shirt.

[Meg Rowley]

It's like a.

[Ben Lindbergh]

God.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, it's.

[Ben Limberger]

It's a partnership.

[Ben Lindbergh]

What the hell are you. These pants.

[Meg Rowley]

I know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

What are these pants, Ben?

[Ben Limberger]

Pants. What are those? Yeah, it looks like.

[Ben Lindbergh]

What's happening here?

[Ben Limberger]

It looks like he walked into wet paint.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It does look like he walked into wet paint.

[Ben Limberger]

There are. Essentially.

[Ben Lindbergh]

There are white pants.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah. You took white pants and. And just, like, had a paintbrush with.

[Meg Rowley]

Blue paint just swiped down each leg, essentially. That's what it looks like to me.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I. I do appreciate that he. Well, he is a Northwest boy. I'm like, of course, this is exclusive to Nordstrom because that's. That's our. That's our luxury department store. That's a. That's the Northwest brand. What is happening in these pants?

[Ben Limberger]

I don't know. I don't.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I mean, look, I gotta say. I gotta say some stuff because I. I'm often critical of Blake Snell because I, until very recently, have super not enjoyed watching him. His teammates seem to love him. Like, he. He seems to just, like, really get along with everybody in. In the dugout, and that's great. But I. What are these pants? And also, like, okay, so these pants. These pants. I'm. I'm like, short circuiting about these pants. These seem to have launched in October. Is that correct? These are like a. Yeah. Okay, so also. And look, I don't need to be a stickler. I'm not such a fancy girl. You. You're wearing white pants after Labor Day. You're launching your white pant collection after. Like, what are these? What's happening? I do not understand.

[Ben Limberger]

I don't know. I know nothing about fashion.

[Meg Rowley]

I'm not qualified to really evaluate Blake.

[Ben Limberger]

Snell's pant design the way that I am his pitching. But I will say that it looks, you know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You know, how sometimes. Okay, so in the first slide of this Instagram little post, you see the. The collared shirt, right? We have the collared shirt. And on the collared shirt, like, in the, like, the middle of his tummy, there appears to be a section where there's, like, white also on it. You know, there's like, the white stripe, but then there's, like, the you see how there's like the white.

[Meg Rowley]

It looks like he's wearing a lanyard.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, no, no, but also, so, so you see the, the. Oh, God. I have to, like, send you a screenshot of the particular part I'm talking about. Do you ever, like, you're, do you ever have the experience you're wearing like a dark colored shirt and you go to brush your teeth and then you. Oh, goof. Oh, no, I got some toothpaste on my shirt. And then you try to wipe it off and then it leaves like toothpaste remnant. Like, you see the part I'm talking about here? I just sent it to you in our G chat. What is happening? What's that? What's that about?

[Ben Limberger]

There's sort of a splotch.

[Ben Lindbergh]

There's like a splotch or like, like someone spilled milk and like, didn't dab it out, like, or got yogurt on their shirt. This looks like a dairy or toothpaste related. What is happening? Also, I'm sorry, I, I don't want to be ungenerous to Blake Snell, even though I've, I've said that he is like the worst person to watch Pitch ever. I just want to understand when did. Why is Blake Snell like, a fashion guy now? Like, what's happening? What's going on? Like, But I'm just saying, like, if you look.

[Meg Rowley]

I guess it's an interest of his.

[Ben Limberger]

And I'm, I'm fine with him pursuing his interest. He has a certain level of celebrity and accomplishment and people want you to be the face of something and do.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They want that face to be the face? Like, he's just a very. He's a very. He's a very normal looking guy. This, this profile of guy is all over Shoreline, which is where he's from, which is why it's.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, he is modeling these studs as well.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He's modeling.

[Meg Rowley]

We will, we will share it for everyone to see. I forget how this even came up, but.

[Ben Limberger]

No, I mean, MLB players, athletes in.

[Meg Rowley]

General, maybe their fashion sense does not always match mine. Maybe. I mean, mine is, Mine is wearing sweatpants all day. So I don't have a fashion sense. But if I, if I were to wear some. Well, yes, it's true, but I'm not wearing like, wedding photo is so nice.

[Ben Limberger]

But there's a lot of Ed Hardy.

[Meg Rowley]

Is what I'm saying, or whatever the modern equivalent of that is.

[Ben Limberger]

Anyway, you were saying something about Albert Pool. Was it that?

[Ben Lindbergh]

And then we should be done so that we can both go on vocal rest before we live stream. But I, I, I have to say so like Pools went and managed and he did a great job and like he gained all this experience. And I am, I am often fascinated to watch guys as they are in the first couple of years right after their big league career has ended because not all of them bounce back to the game, but a lot of them do. And I always am curious like how much of it is money, how much of it is wanting the routine, how much of it is like needing to fill all this time that you, you know. And I know that Pujols is like a very dedicated father, but I think he and his wife like got divorced not long after he stopped playing Switzerland. Just like, you know, like you, you, you look for a lot of routine in the game and you find it and like you love baseball. You know, he was a great player but also just, it's so, it's so interesting to me when these guys like ricochet back. But Pujols like put work in and I wonder if he went into those meetings with Artie and was like no, I'm trying to like be serious, you know, like I've, I have expended effort to gain expertise and experience doing this and like I think I have something to contribute to a club. And you're fundamentally unserious and I'm putting hypothetical words in Pujols mouth. I'm sure he didn't say any of those things, but I wonder if he got into that meeting and was like, oh, like I'm really trying to be about it. And you want to hire Kurt Suzuki. I guess Hools was a member of.

[Ben Limberger]

That organization long enough that you'd think, you know it. The more that comes out about the.

[Meg Rowley]

Angels, it just makes you question why.

[Ben Limberger]

Was and is Mike Trout so loyal to the Angels?

[Meg Rowley]

I know they drafted him, he's always been there.

[Ben Limberger]

But it's not like a first class.

[Meg Rowley]

Organization seemingly in, in any respect really.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So do not treat their people well.

[Meg Rowley]

Inspires such specific loyalty. Anyway, did just in closing because I was kind of pairing the two California managerial moves. The Suzuki one is probably the last less interesting one. I mean it's, you know, everyone joked about it because it's Lowell Angels and their whole process just seems to be borked as usual. But the Giants made the maybe more atypical and out of the box managerial hire with Tony Vitello. And even though I am, as some.

[Ben Limberger]

People may be aware, not a huge.

[Meg Rowley]

College baseball guy, I do find this pretty fascinating.

[Ben Limberger]

This was another case where there was a reputed favorite who did not end up being the choice because Nick Hundley was said to be the front runner. And you know, he and Posey go.

[Meg Rowley]

Way back and obviously he was a player. And he also did not have coaching or managing experience, but was at least like doing front office stuff. Worked for the league, was like around MLB and MLB teams and obviously Tony.

[Ben Limberger]

Vitello has not been. And so this is an unprecedented hiring.

[Meg Rowley]

For a college head coach to immediately make the leap to managing an MLB team.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

And that just hasn't happened before. Everyone knows, yeah, Pat Murphy was a Division 1 head coach, but he was a MLB coach for years and a bench coach before he became a manager. And people have mentioned Dick Hauser who went from Florida State to the Yankees in 1980, but. But that was not the same. He was moonlighting as a college coach. Before that he had been a big league player. He had been a Yankees coach for 10 years. So the college coaching was what was the exception to the rule for him, not the other way around. And same when the Angels hired Bobby Winkles from Arizona State. This was 1973, but he had spent a season on their coaching staff with the Angels. That is. So for someone who has just no.

[Ben Limberger]

MLB experience at any level, in any capacity, as a player, as a coach.

[Meg Rowley]

To go straight to the majors, that just hasn't happened. And it's exciting. There's a higher risk of a flame out, I suppose, given all the uncertainties of that transition, which is not unusual in other sports. Obviously. There's plenty of precedent for that happening in other sports where there's, you know, a higher profile to the college game than there is in baseball.

[Ben Limberger]

And even though I don't follow college sports closely or college baseball, I've written.

[Meg Rowley]

A fair amount about college coaching and player development and how we've seen an influx of coaches from the college ranks to mlb. That's been pretty common in recent years, just because college has been really a hotbed of player development and advanced player development for years now. So it makes sense that this would.

[Ben Limberger]

Happen, I guess, at this stage and not at an earlier stage, but it is still.

[Meg Rowley]

It's a bold strategy.

[Ben Limberger]

Cotton like this is really interesting.

[Meg Rowley]

And he got a big contract for a rookie manager. He didn't just get one year, he.

[Ben Limberger]

Got three years with an option for a fourth at three and a half million per.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, yeah, he's not going to go for less money than he was getting a chance to see. Exactly.

[Ben Limberger]

Right.

[Meg Rowley]

And that, yeah, he was making 3.

[Ben Limberger]

Million annually there with a $3 million buyout.

[Meg Rowley]

And that's the other thing is that.

[Ben Limberger]

College coaches make bank like they make big money.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, you'd think mlb, that's got to be bigger money. No, not necessarily compared to boosters, my.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Friends, that's nothing compared to boosters.

[Meg Rowley]

Boosters, exactly.

[Ben Limberger]

So that's one thing that has prevented.

[Meg Rowley]

This from happening before.

[Ben Limberger]

That is that it's, it's a pretty cushy and well compensated job.

[Meg Rowley]

So it's not necessarily a promotion. It sounds like, oh, you're going from amateur ball to the highest level of pro ball. Yeah, but in terms of salary and benefits and profile and all the rest of it, there are a lot of advantages to being a college coach. So yeah, is 47 and like he's.

[Ben Limberger]

A, he's a personality. Right.

[Meg Rowley]

And you probably know this better than I do. And Bauman has written at length about him, of course, but he, I don't.

[Ben Limberger]

Know if he seeks the spotlight.

[Meg Rowley]

He certainly doesn't avoid the spotlight. And he's, you know, like pretty, pretty flashy, pretty attention getting, good looking guy, you know, quotable, fiery, gets run from a lot of games.

[Ben Limberger]

You know, we could have a new Aaron Boone on our hands here potentially.

[Meg Rowley]

And has a track record of inspiring players and also of success. We should note that's, you know, in the college game, however transferable that is, we will see. But he's been doing this for a long time. Like he was an assistant coach at a few different schools and then he's been at Tennessee for eight seasons. They've been to the College World Series, three out of the past five and, and one last year. So, you know, they're getting an elite talent in college baseball coaching here, although.

[Ben Limberger]

I guess sometimes a pretty polarizing one just because of how high profile a figure he is and how he kind of embraces that. So what do you make of the move?

[Ben Lindbergh]

I have no idea if this is going to work. I thought Bauman did a really great job writing about this for us and we should probably have him on at some point to talk about it. But the things that have made him super successful at the college level, some of them I think are transferable, like being able to command a room. He's going to be great in front of the media. I think that he does inspire players. Great, transferable. Whether they will translate in the way that he does it I think remains to be seen. But those are transferable skills. Some of the things that he does we don't know. Right. Like college head coaches. Are as much like GMs as they are like managers. And some of the. Some of those pieces, I think might blend well with posy, but some of them are going to be, like, irrelevant to vital just because, like, you're not trying to, you know, navigate the transfer portal. You're not trying to, you know, dole out nil money. Sure, maybe there are some parallels to free agency there, but it is a fundamentally different project. You're recruiting, you know, very young players relative to what he's going to encounter when he gets to the majors. Some of the, like, grind it out stuff isn't going to play over 162 game season. As, as Bauman noted, it'll be really interesting to see sort of how he calibrates some of the stuff that I think made him really effective at Tennessee. You know, the ability to assemble a staff that could increase velo all of their strength and conditioning gains. Like, guys do get stronger when they go there. Some of that stuff is great. Some of that stuff doesn't necessarily matter in the same way for guys who are already pros and have already been in like a pro strength and conditioning program, you can't just throw velocity at everything. Like, you do have to develop other stuff. So some of that's going to be interesting to see. I find the vibe of that team, that Tennessee team, to suck out loud. Um, I appreciate why people like it and I do think that, like, he does a good job of. Of letting his guys be themselves. It's just so happens that some of the personalities he's assembled are ones that I find abrasive and terrible. So, you know, your mileage might vary there, but he's also not dealing with as young a player pool. And so he's going to have to, you know, I think he'll do a good job of being respectful of pro players, but like, some of the, like rah rah that he does a good job of at Tennessee is like, you know, if you're Logan Webb or Willie Adams, are you going to be like, what are you doing, man?

[Ben Limberger]

That's the thing. Yeah, that's what fascinates me.

[Meg Rowley]

And of course, Drew Gilbert is a former player for him and many former players of his many gone on to be good in the majors and speak highly of him.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Sure.

[Meg Rowley]

But yes, there have been some spectacular flame outs before from highly touted college.

[Ben Limberger]

Coaches in other sports who went on.

[Meg Rowley]

To pro ball and just. It didn't translate.

[Ben Limberger]

And maybe it didn't translate tactically or strategically, but also, yeah, in terms of how you relate to the players. He clearly has the capacity to inspire.

[Meg Rowley]

Players and get them to play hard for him and like him and everything. But it is, it is different.

[Ben Limberger]

You're talking about teenagers or early 20.

[Meg Rowley]

Somethings versus real grownups, you know, and some guys who aren't even that much.

[Ben Limberger]

Younger than he is.

[Meg Rowley]

And so it's like, yeah, does that rub you the wrong way? If you're doing that, like, yeah, super rah rah, as you said, and you know, go get him in that whole mentality over a very long season with guys who've also, like, been in the.

[Ben Limberger]

Game more than you have in the pro game, that is.

[Meg Rowley]

And so who are you to come.

[Ben Limberger]

In and tell us? Right?

[Meg Rowley]

There's always kind of that, like, is there a lack of credibility if you haven't been a big leaguer in any capacity before? And then, yeah, you're used to, like, pumping up kids basically versus adults. Sometimes it's like it, it feels, I don't know, infantilizing or so almost it's like, okay, this works in college, but not here. So that will be quite fascinating.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Or at least, you know, very young men. And they're young men in a pro dugout too.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You know, I think that part of why, if I understand, maybe put a little more substantive heft behind the part of his whole style that I find grating. I do think that, like, he does a good job of inspiring his guys and I think his affection for them is very genuine. Like, he was, you know, he was there the night that, you know, speaking of the angels, he was there the night that Christian Moore got drafted and he was at the desk and like, the look on, on Tony's face when Christian Moore got drafted was like, so genuine and so full of, like, tender feeling for this guy. And so I don't want to say that, like, it's all pretend or that there isn't anything positive to it, but there have been times where my read of his coaching style at Tennessee was like, yeah, let kids be themselves. Let young men be themselves, but guide young men. You know, sometimes young men need to be told to knock it off because they're being obnoxious, you know, and they're, they have gone over the line of being confident and celebratory and themselves to being dicks, you know, and part of your responsibility when you are a coach or an educator of people that age is to help them learn where those lines are. And I think it's particularly important. I'm not saying Christian Moore was one of the guys. But, like, you know, there's an edge to. There has been an edge to that Tennessee team at times. And I do think that you have a responsibility to help them navigate that line in a way that's going to be productive, particularly if they're going to end up being pros with a bunch of money. You know, you just have to help them figure that stuff out. That's part of your responsibility as a coach. And there have been times where I've. I've been like, you could be a little less loose, Tony. Now, those considerations exist in the pro game. They're less pronounced because everybody's older, everybody has different responsibilities. But it's not like teams don't have plenty of young guys who need guidance. Right? And they have a bunch of money, too. So because, like, players of Tennessee get paid, like, I don't mean that in a nefarious way. I just mean that they have, like, a good. They handle nil well and they. Those guys get money. So. So there's that piece of it. And I will be curious to see how he navigates that. But also, like, my sensibilities and the sensibilities of a pro locker room are probably different. So it might play. It might play fine. And the one thing I'll. The final thing I'll say is that, you know, Posey was viewed as this, like. And I don't think that was an incorrect assessment. This kind of like, old school hire. There was a concern that he was just going to run it back. Some of the guys he brought in, it was like, these are players whose names he knows. And so I do think it's a really interesting departure in the early part of his tenure for him to make a super unconventional hire and one that is challenging establishment norms. Is it going to work? I don't know. Is it going to be good for the Giants? I have no idea. And I think anyone who's like, oh, yeah, this is definitely good or definitely bad is selling you something, because there's so many different ways this could go. It's a super high variance, higher. And sometimes that is great and sometimes that is a catastrophe, and we just don't know yet. But, like, it is. It is a really interesting move for Posey to be making given sort of our understanding of him as a GM at this stage. So, like, I am fascinated also. I said this on Blue sky, and people need to reckon with it. The number of horny texts that I got about this. This man when he was on draft, broadcast from people who, you know, know Major League Baseball, but are only engaging with the college game via the draft and thus only really seeing the coaching, you know, Tony via the draft. Listen, friends, you need to prepare yourselves. People are going to be really freaking weird about this guy. They're going to be horny on main in a way that makes you uncomfortable. So just like, strap in. Because I couldn't believe. I could not believe some of the texts that I got. I could, you know, people are. People have thoughts about. And I'm not sharing any thoughts myself. I'm saying I got multiple texts from different people being like, who's that? And I'm like, you need to Rolex. So just, well, get ready.

[Ben Limberger]

There was a Gabe Kapler contingency of.

[Meg Rowley]

That kind as well.

[Ben Limberger]

But for.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And this, it's going to be similar, but it's going to be a little different. It's a little. It's a different. It's a related, but importantly different aesthetic than Gabe.

[Ben Limberger]

Yeah, but you're right that Posey, he's going out on a limb a little.

[Meg Rowley]

Bit here because if this does backfire, then that sort of sticks to him and it is admirable in a way that he's not saying, yeah, I'm just going to go get Bo. Like, we're bringing Bo back, but I'm doing something no one has done done.

[Ben Limberger]

I guess it can be new and also slightly old school at the same time. Because I think one thing that they've.

[Meg Rowley]

Both talked about, Posey and Vitello, is just like fundamentals and development. And we've talked about that larger meta conversation about the sport and fundamentals and whether players know what they're doing even if they are more talented than ever. And Vitello, he was in San Francisco for a series, I think, or forget whether it was at Coors or in San Francisco, but I think they were in Colorado.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, that might have been it, if.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I remember that report right. Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

Because he had a bunch of former players there. And so he went and they talked. He and Posey talked. Then Posey went, too, and Patela talked afterward and said, I think everyone is suffering the consequences all the way up to the big leagues, where guys are.

[Ben Limberger]

Super skilled, but there's less development, less.

[Meg Rowley]

Coaching, less accountability, and therefore less understanding of how to actually play the game to win. And it starts all the way. Trickle down effect. He said that on a podcast subsequently.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Ben Limberger]

So you could see this as the antidote to that. Okay, we'll go get a college coach.

[Meg Rowley]

When you're actually still teaching Players, the fundamentals. And we'll remind these major leaguers of.

[Ben Limberger]

Those things that they've forgotten or never learned that could also backfire or rub.

[Meg Rowley]

People the wrong way.

[Ben Limberger]

Because it's like, who are you?

[Meg Rowley]

You know, like you're coming not even from the bush leagues, you're from amateur ball here and you're telling me how.

[Ben Limberger]

To play the game the right way. How are you qualified to talk? So it depends on the message and.

[Meg Rowley]

The messenger and it'll depend in part.

[Ben Lindbergh]

On who he brings in. Right. How much of that staff is turning over? We, I don't know if you know the answer to that yet.

[Meg Rowley]

And also just like, is the team good? Will the team win? You know, because that'll affect how the clubhouse is also.

[Ben Limberger]

But yeah, it feels like a, a.

[Meg Rowley]

Low floor but high ceiling move, I suppose. And you know, you take away the recruiting advantage mostly, I guess. Not that a manager plays no role.

[Ben Limberger]

In say, making a place a more.

[Meg Rowley]

Attractive destination for free agents, but it's not the same, obviously. And you know, crafting the roster, it's not the same. And he's not known as like a super stat head. Not, not that he's like anti numbers or anything, but I don't know that he has that reputation as like being.

[Ben Limberger]

At the forefront of that. And. And if his coaches are responsible for some of the player development acumen, then.

[Meg Rowley]

Does that transfer with him or not?

[Ben Limberger]

And the other thing is that like.

[Meg Rowley]

In the big leagues these days, player development is ongoing. It's not the way that it used to be where guys were viewed as finished products and you developed in the minors and then you got to the big leagues and then the coaches were just the managers drinking buddies.

[Ben Limberger]

There is supposed to be active development.

[Meg Rowley]

And players improving going on. And I think that's, that's part of the desire to have this kind of coach come in. So if he is personally responsible for players having improved under him, as opposed to just putting the right coaches in place, which, you know, that will still be to some extent his purview now. So he could, he could bring back.

[Ben Limberger]

Some of his coaches or he could.

[Meg Rowley]

Make some adept hires there to help him and maybe there could still be development that goes on.

[Ben Limberger]

And the Giants have experimented with that.

[Meg Rowley]

And they've had in recent years pre Posey as pobo, but they had their expanded coaching staff with, you know, assistant this and assistant that and assistant to the assistant. And that seemed to pay dividends at least for a little while. And they've had some maybe analytical edges.

[Ben Limberger]

With swing paths and stuff where they.

[Meg Rowley]

Were able to kind of optimize their player usage and pitch hitting and everything. And I don't know if those advantages.

[Ben Limberger]

Have persisted, but they been known for kind of being forward thinking when it.

[Meg Rowley]

Comes to coaching or development at the big league level.

[Ben Limberger]

So maybe this is a continuation of that. Anyway, fundamentally I'm into it just because it's interesting to talk about, more so than it is with most managerial hirings where it's just some retread or some predictable person. This is not predictable and this is unconventional. And that means that there's more to discuss, which is good for us people.

[Meg Rowley]

Who discuss baseball professionally. I don't have a personal stake in whether the Giants do well or not though.

[Ben Limberger]

Sure would be nice, you know, like.

[Meg Rowley]

If this hit and they were great.

[Ben Limberger]

Or if they just completely flamed out and crashed and burned, at least they wouldn't be just persistently.500 every year on the dot.

[Meg Rowley]

So that would be a nice change.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I agree.

[Ben Limberger]

All right, returning for my outro recording.

[Meg Rowley]

Post game and post stream to report.

[Ben Limberger]

That the Dodgers have been Blue Jays.

[Meg Rowley]

Blake Snell was not at his best.

[Ben Limberger]

And then the much more maligned Dodgers.

[Meg Rowley]

Bullpen showed why it has been much maligned. In a nine run inning in which.

[Ben Limberger]

The Blue Jays exceeded the sum total.

[Meg Rowley]

Of offense that the brewers produced in their whole NLCs.

[Ben Limberger]

It was single after single after hit by pitch after walk. And then there were a couple big.

[Meg Rowley]

Bombs in there too. Capped off by a barger bomb 114 win for Toronto.

[Ben Limberger]

The Blue Jays executed the plan to perfection that the Dodgers previous opponents were not able to reliably get the starter. Out, out. Stick it to the bullpen. I still say it wasn't a must.

[Meg Rowley]

Win, but they did indeed win.

[Ben Limberger]

Dodgers got a couple of their low leverage arms in there.

[Meg Rowley]

Some guys who hadn't even been on.

[Ben Limberger]

Rosters in previous rounds.

[Meg Rowley]

Justin Robleski, Will Klein.

[Ben Limberger]

I think those guys are actually pretty good and could potentially play an important role. With Alex Vesia out, but by the.

[Meg Rowley]

Time they got into this game it was well out of hand. Late homer by Shohei, but this time he didn't hit three or pitch so it was not enough. Roberts must be saving Kershaw for the.

[Ben Limberger]

Home crowd since I was talking about this being a series for a global audience, though we did get a question from listener Patreon supporter Jeff who asked is this the most World Series? Thinking about how important Ohtani and Yamamoto are to the Dodgers and Vlad to the Blue Jays. Is this the World Series with the most war from foreign born players. If not, which is Did Soto on.

[Meg Rowley]

The Yankees top it last year without us noticing? I put this question to Patreon supporter and listener Michael Mountain Martin, who stat blasted it for us and wrote this.

[Ben Limberger]

Summary for me of his findings. I excluded all players born in the.

[Meg Rowley]

United States, including U.S. territories. This mostly means no Puerto Rican players.

[Ben Limberger]

But there were also three players with World Series experience who were born in the US Virgin Islands. Meadre Cummings, Joe Christopher, Elrod Hendricks the 2025 Games haven't happened yet, so we can't compare WAR among players who appeared.

[Meg Rowley]

In a World Series game. Perhaps we could look at that later.

[Ben Limberger]

And finding active roster data for past years is difficult to I ended up looking at WAR for all players who appeared in at least one regular season game for the eventual league champions and dropping any players with negative WAR since.

[Meg Rowley]

Those would likely not be World Series participants or certainly not major contributors.

[Ben Limberger]

Then again, I guess Roki Sasaki had.

[Meg Rowley]

Negative fan graphs WAR and he's a.

[Ben Limberger]

Pretty important contributor the single season Baseball Reference WAR total for all non US born players on the 2025 Dodgers and Blue Jays rosters combined is 32.1 22.6.

[Meg Rowley]

From the Dodgers, 9.5 from the Blue Jays.

[Ben Limberger]

That's the fifth highest total for any World Series matchup and all the ones ahead of it are in the period 2019 to 2024.

[Meg Rowley]

Makes sense game has gotten more international.

[Ben Limberger]

Jeff is correct that last year's World Series set the record without us noticing. Maybe someone noticed. Led by Shohei and Soto, the 2024 Dodgers and Yankees got 39.7. Baseball Reference WAR from 22 different foreign born players in the regular season. Other significant significant contributors that year with more than one baseball reference WAR were te, Oscar Hernandez, Miguel Rojas, Luis Heel, Nestor Cortez, Gleyber Torres, Yoshinobu Yamamoto, Jazz Chisholm, Andy Pajes and Oswaldo Cabrera. The record for most foreign born WAR on a single World Series participant team is the 2022 Houston Astros with 31.3. They had 12 players accumulate positive B WAR in the regular season led by Jordan Alvarez, Jose Altuve, Jeremy Pena, Christian Javier and from Amber Valdez. If you want to count world influence as the number of foreign born players.

[Meg Rowley]

Who appeared in the series, there were 18 foreign born players in the 2022 World Series.

[Ben Limberger]

The record for most number of birth.

[Meg Rowley]

Countries represented in a World Series is nine set in 2018. Players in that series were born in.

[Ben Limberger]

The U.S. aruba, Cuba sound like I'm singing Kokomo here.

[Meg Rowley]

Coracao the Dominican Republic, Japan, South Korea, Mexico and Venezuela.

[Ben Limberger]

Finally, shout out to Jose Urania who as far as I can tell is the first foreign born player in MLB history to accumulate positive baseball reference WAR. Both World Series participants in the current.

[Meg Rowley]

Season negative 0.1 each for Toronto and Los Angeles.

[Ben Limberger]

Obviously other players have appeared for both World Series teams, but I don't think.

[Meg Rowley]

Anyone else has been above 0.1 war for both. Buddy Kennedy is the other guy who played for both of this year's World Series teams, but he's from Millville, New Jersey.

[Ben Limberger]

Of course, the most famous player from Millville, New Jersey, Buddy Kennedy. We just got a Patreon message as I'm recording this from listener Jacob who says says in the post game show Derek Jeter just called Game two a must win for the Dodgers. Game two. So we've gone from Game one being a must win for the Jays to.

[Meg Rowley]

Game two being a must win for the Dodgers. It's really something.

[Ben Limberger]

Boba Shet looked fine in second base by the way.

[Meg Rowley]

He made a nice play behind the bag. Technically it was on the shortstop side.

[Ben Limberger]

Of second base, so it was actually.

[Meg Rowley]

Not far from where he typically plays.

[Ben Limberger]

Though he was going in a different direction.

[Meg Rowley]

Ultimately they pinch ran for him.

[Ben Limberger]

Andrea Savage, while not lights out and not a as splitterific as usual, was good enough.

[Meg Rowley]

More than good enough for a guy who has blown by his previous single season innings high and who was the.

[Ben Limberger]

Second youngest starter of a World Series opener behind Ralph Branka and who now has more career postseason starts than regular season starts.

[Meg Rowley]

That's a stat that tickles me.

[Ben Limberger]

And you can tickle me too in.

[Meg Rowley]

A platonic non physical way. We don't have a Patreon tier for.

[Ben Limberger]

That, but you can support Effectively Wild.

[Meg Rowley]

On Patreon by going to patreon.com effectively wild as hello.

[Ben Limberger]

Have the following five listeners who have already signed up and pledge them monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get themselves access to some perks. Dave Vincent Beltran, Omar Perez, Jake Andrews and David Gordon.

[Meg Rowley]

Thanks to all of you.

[Ben Limberger]

Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only, monthly bonus episodes, the playoff live streams which.

[Meg Rowley]

Are concluded now for this year, but.

[Ben Limberger]

You can still access the recordings of.

[Meg Rowley]

Them if you care to personalized messages.

[Ben Limberger]

Potential podcast appearances, discounts on merch and ad free fangrafts, memberships and so much more.

[Meg Rowley]

Check out all the [e-mail] effectivelywild if.

[Ben Limberger]

You are a Patreon supporter you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcastangraphts.com youm can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Music, and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook group at Facebook Effectively Wild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at R Effectively Wild and you can check the show notes at Fan Graphs or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and.

[Meg Rowley]

Stats we cited today.

[Ben Limberger]

Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We hope you have a wonderful weekend and we will be back to talk.

[Meg Rowley]

To you next week.

[Ben Limberger]

Have a catch in the slug with me in a virtual ride from small sample size. These fun facts must lie. It's Effectively Wild. A strange but good thing. Effectively Wild.