Effectively Wild Episode 2393: The World Series Game 3 Draft

Summary

Effectively Wild Episode 2393: The World Series Game 3 Draft

Host(s): Ben Lindbergh (The Ringer), Meg Rowley (FanGraphs)
Date: October 29, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode is devoted entirely to Game 3 of the 2025 World Series, which became an instant classic: an 18-inning, 6-hour-and-39-minute marathon between the Los Angeles Dodgers and Toronto Blue Jays. Rather than a typical recap, Ben and Meg hold a “Game 3 Draft” — trading memorable moments, notable narratives, and wild details from a game so jam-packed it felt like a series unto itself. There’s discussion of drama, strategy, heroics, managerial choices (especially concerning Shohei Ohtani), and the stress, absurdity, and exhaustion that comes with a postseason epic.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Game 3 Was an Epic: Why the Focus?

• The hosts explain up top that this game was so historic, fascinating, and exhausting that it deserves its own episode. They compare it to the legendary 2015 ALDS Game 5, as well as the 2018 World Series 18-inning epic, but insist this game eclipsed those in action and drama ([09:43]).
• Comparison with the 2018 game:
  • 2018: 7 hours, 20 mins; 18 innings, less action
  • 2025: “Only” 6:39, but more pitches (609), plate appearances (153), and scoring.
  • “There was not as much activity in that game. And it took even longer” – Ben ([09:43])
• The “pitch clock” made a difference: more activity took less time.

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2. The ‘Draft’ — Notable Moments & Key Performances

[Start of the draft: 12:05]

Format: Draft of 9 memorable things each (aiming for 18 total—one for each inning).

A. Vladimir Guerrero Jr.’s Legendary Effort

• Meg’s first pick: Guerrero’s all-round postseason has become “the stuff of lore,” highlighted by his mad dash from first to home in the 7th inning — “the boop play” ([12:13]).
  • “He just booped it. He booped the plate.” (Meg, [13:48])
  • Emphasis on Vlad’s effort level, focus, and “hair on fire” play throughout the postseason.
• Ben echoes: Not just the bat – Vlad’s defense and baserunning have been outstanding.
  • “He has remade himself physically…right now…he’s an all-round player. He can do it all.” (Ben, [21:00])
• Also, a fantastic throw from first to third to nail Teoscar Hernández ([21:00], [23:21]).

B. Shohei Ohtani: Dominance and Deliberate Dodging

• Ohtani’s game-tying home run in the 7th off a “middle-middle” pitch from Seranthony Domínguez ([26:55]).
  • “Hardly has a more middle, middle pitch ever been thrown.” (Meg, [26:55])
• Intentional walks controversy:
  • Schneider (Blue Jays manager) IBB’d Ohtani a (postseason) record four times, mostly with the bases empty, tripling the previous World Series total.
  • “He set so many records, so many different types of records really…first player to be intentionally walked four times in a postseason game.” (Ben, [32:47])
  • “It just became the latest manifestation that Ohtani is on a different plane of athletic existence.” ([32:49])
• Listener question: What can be done to stop multiple IBBs? Ben and Meg agree it’s impractical to legislate away, and most fans—even stats-minded ones—simply don’t want to see Ohtani beat them again ([32:47]-[39:44]).

C. Bullpens and Unsung Heroes

• Will Klein’s Ironman Relief for Dodgers ([43:00]):

  • 4 innings, 72 pitches (double previous MLB high), crucial strikeouts on fumes.
  • “He was essentially the last line of defense…and he knew it.” (Ben, [44:03])
  • Parallels to Nathan Eovaldi’s extra-inning heroics in 2018, but with less buildup or expectation ([47:15]).
  • Dodgers’ bullpen depth: Klein, Enriquez, Robleski, and Dreyer, previously unused, threw 6 2/3 scoreless and were vital.

• Blue Jays’ side:

  • Eric Lauer: 4.2 innings of calm, effective relief ([72:12])
  • Fischer: Gutting through exhaustion for key outs ([75:20])

D. The Starters Lurk: Kershaw & Yamamoto

• Both teams’ bullpen depletion meant ace starters were warming up to enter late extras ([52:27], [55:05]).
  • “The eerie threat of looming starters.” (Meg, [52:27])
• Yamamoto volunteered to pitch after a complete-game start only days earlier ([55:05]).
• Clayton Kershaw’s redemption inning:
  • Entered in the 12th with bases loaded, got out of trouble — possibly his final appearance.
  • “If that is the end of Clayton Kershaw’s career, then he went out with one more happy signature postseason moment for once.” (Ben, [63:36])

E. Umpiring, Controversies, and Weirdness

• Strike zone and the Varsho/Bo Bichette pickoff fiasco ([63:42])
  • Dalton Varsho is rung up on a blown call for strike two on ball four; Bo Bichette, thinking it’s ball four, leaves the bag and is picked off.
  • “The original sin of that moment comes with a late call and a late, bad call.” (Meg, [70:11])
• Anticipation of automated challenge systems coming to MLB and frustration it wasn’t in place for this postseason.

F. Defensive Gems

• Dalton Varsho’s center field play prevents runs all night ([75:20]).
  • “He saved this…in part because of Dalton Varsho and some of the plays that he was making, getting on his horse, running a really good route out there.” (Meg, [75:20])
• Addison Barger’s rocket throw to cut down Freddie Freeman at home ([85:17]):
  • “That was the third fastest tracked postseason throw I saw…98.5 mph and perfectly accurate.” (Ben, [85:18])

G. Walkoff and Near-Walkoffs

• Freddie Freeman’s walk-off HR in 18th:

  • “As you said, he spared us from that possible fate of Miguel Rojas pitching in the 19th inning.” (Ben, [83:10])
  • First player with multiple walkoff HRs in World Series history.

• Numerous near-walkoffs: Multiple deep flies that had fans, broadcasters, and players on edge, all contained by Dodger Stadium’s night air ([80:41], [81:18]).

H. Broadcast, Booth, and Ballpark Atmosphere

• Broadcast evolved into sleep-deprived delight:
  • “Smoltz let his hair down…bantering about fruit plates…they were getting a little loose.” ([90:28])
• Sleepy Shohei Ohtani anecdote: Ohtani accidentally wore the wrong cap in extras, so tired he needed a coach to alert him ([90:40]).

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3. Strategic & Managerial Decisions

Intentional Walks and Conventional Wisdom

• John Schneider’s repeated IBBs to Ohtani, even with no one on, drew criticism and statistical breakdown ([27:35], [32:47]).
  • “He found that it’s really bad…costing the Blue Jays something like 13% in win expectancy. Which is an enormous number.” (Ben, [27:35])
  • The third, loading the bases for Freddie Freeman, was seen as particularly egregious ([29:33]).

Substitutions and Lineup Attrition

• As the game spiraled deep into extras, both teams ran out of bench bats and relievers, leading to less dynamic lineups and the threat of position players pitching ([45:11], [76:48], [77:43]).
• If Yamamoto hadn’t volunteered for the 19th, Miguel Rojas would have pitched—crisis barely averted ([76:48]).

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4. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Nature of This Game

• “It’s such a rich text because it was two games worth of game in terms of innings, and maybe more than that in terms of just how much activity was crammed into this thing.” – Ben ([08:33])
• “This game has everything!” – Meg ([11:04])

On Ohtani’s Intentional Walks

• “It ascended to such a preposterous level…he set so many records.” – Ben ([32:49])
• “This was such an unusual circumstance with such an unusual player.” – Meg ([36:18])

On Vlad’s Heroics

• “Vladimir Guerrero Jr. really wants to win this World Series.” – Meg ([12:13])
• “He has made himself into a capable defender…he’s an all-round player.” – Ben ([21:00])

On the Marathon’s Fatigue

• “I was convinced for at least two innings that the game would never conclude because our time on the mortal plane had concluded. And this was us in purgatory. We were all in hell.” – Meg ([04:55])
• “If this is hell, I would sign up for eternal damnation because this is not so bad.” – Ben ([06:09])

On Broadcast and Booth Atmosphere

• “I loved the notion of Sleepy Ohtani…” (Meg, [90:33])
• “Smoltz let his hair down…they were getting a little loose. They were a little punchy. It was terrific.” (Meg, [90:28])

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5. Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & justification for focusing on Game 3: 00:37–09:43
• Comparing to other postseason marathons: 09:43–11:04
• Draft begins: 12:05
  • Vladimir Guerrero Jr. post-season play & “boop” score: 12:13–18:04
  • Ohtani’s heroics & intentional walks: 26:55–39:44 (with deeper stats at 32:47)
• Pitching heroics & bullpen chaos: 43:00–52:13
• Starters warming in extras: 52:27, 55:05
• Kershaw’s inning: 59:42–63:36
• Umpiring and Varsho/Bo incident: 63:41–71:17
• Defensive highlights – Varsho & Barger: 75:20–85:18
• Freddie Freeman’s walk-off and false alarms: 80:32–84:56
• Broadcast and “Sleepy Shohei” moments: 90:28–91:28

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Additional Notable Threads

• The sloppiness and chaos of the game: Many errors, strange coaching decisions, and questionable base running; yet, that wildness contributed to the game’s appeal.
• “Zombie Runner” debate: Both hosts adamant that postseason should never feature the extra-inning runner. “This should be like the nature reserve where we get to enjoy unspoiled wilderness with no Zombie Runner.” (Ben, [78:08])
• Bizarre behind-the-scenes stories: Addison Barger couch-surfing on Davis Schneider’s hotel pullout ([87:12]), viral marketing shenanigans behind home plate ([91:51–94:09]), and more.

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Final Thoughts

• The game was so sprawling and strange, the hosts acknowledge they forgot or didn’t have time to mention many notable plays and side-stories.
• Ben's closing: “For the sickos, those who can and will be there until the last pitch, this will stay with us forever. This will be an absolute classic and a game that we had to devote an entire episode to.” ([99:15])
• Statistical oddities:
  • 37 men left on base, 4-for-26 with RISP.
  • 19 pitchers used: a postseason record.
  • More triple digit pitches in late innings than multiple entire World Series in recent history ([47:15]).
• Acknowledgement: No time to discuss Game 4 at length, but the Blue Jays tied the series, assuring return to Toronto for Halloween baseball.

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For more analysis and all references, see the show notes on FanGraphs or episode description.

Transcript

[Ben Lindbergh]

Effectively Wild. Effectively Wild. Effectively Wild. Effectively Wild. Hello and welcome to episode 2393 of Effectively Wild Baseball podcast from Fangraphs, presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of the Ringer, joined by Meg Ry of fangraphs. Hello, Meg.

[Meg Rowley]

Hello.

[Ben Lindbergh]

While three World Series games have transpired since we have recorded a podcast, we will not really be talking about the first two today.

[Meg Rowley]

No.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Maybe we'll. We'll touch on them, maybe we'll circle back, but this is going to be a Game three episode.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I don't think anyone will fault us for that because arguably, one of the greatest games of all time. Maybe not even arguably, because who would argue about it? Who would argue against it?

[Meg Rowley]

Okay, so I. I agree with you that this was. This was wonderful and I had a great time. I would also just say, I think we can say that, and we can also admit that there were long stretches where we collectively wanted to die during this game. You know, like the two things can be true simultaneously.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. That's part of the fun.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. And you. Naturally, a game like this is going to invite extra innings. Zombie Runner discourse. And I want to reassure our listeners and you, Ben, that my opinion on the Zombie Runner has not changed. I am firmly committed to the notion that it is a travesty, it is a tragedy. It is a combination of those two words. I think, though, that a game like this does remind us of the fact that we're most extra innings games as long as this one. And of course, they aren't Ben. Of course they aren't Ben. And that. That's the. That's the little. That's the little slippery bit at the middle of this conversation. Most. Most extra innings games do not go this long. Most extra innings games don't go 12 innings. Right. Most of them resolve in fairly short order even without the assistance of the Zombie Runner. This we know. Having said that, if more of them went this long, if any of them went this long with regularity, I think we would be compelled to revisit our position because, yes, we couldn't be doing this all the time. This took forever. I was worried in a. In a very real way that this game was going to cause the deaths of several members of our staff at Fan Graphs because it took, you know, we have a traditional gamer, and David Lorela did a great job with that gamer. Tough assignment. Tough assignment to draw. Just like really a hard time. And he did a great job. And I want to shout him out. And I want to shout out Matt Martell, who You know, pull back the curtain editorial editorially a little bit. A thing that happens is, you know, you're going to have these evening gamers and I'm on the west coast and Matt's on the east coast but they all start at the same time. And so you engage in a little negotia know. And I looked ahead at my schedule for the week and Matt looked at his. And so Matt had drawn this as his gamer to edit of this trio and, and he got it the short.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Straw or the extremely long straw.

[Meg Rowley]

At the time it felt like a good deal because the other thing that's going on, as you know Ben, I really enjoy Halloween as I have shared with our Patreon supporters on various live streams. My neighborhood goes hard for Halloween. It's a great time. And so earlier in the week I had said to weekend even I had said to Matt, hey Matt, would it be okay if there is a game on Friday which is Halloween if you took that gamer? Because I would like to be available to do trick or treat and hand out candy and this and that and then, you know, not have to rush away from it to edit a gamer. And that was like hey, hey, sure. And then I was like as, as, as compensation for this, I will edit two of the three gamers in those three game set earlier in the week. And that was like very reasonable. And so then various other things it made sense for Matt to do the Monday gamer and for me to do tonight's Tuesday. We're recording before game four and Wednesdays which we knew would happen because of the results of the weekend. Again, not talking about those games, what fun they were. And so Matt thought like this is a reasonable deal, it's a fair deal. Shake on it. And then it became clear that he was really editing two gamers worth of gamer. And so it was. Anyway, I just want to make sure that both Matt and David are acknowledged for the, the herculean efforts of the evening. But with a game like this, which is so wild as we will discuss, clearly much more had to be written about it. So I'm bobbing and weaving. I'm reaching out to Davey, I'm reaching out to Ben Bauman is screaming at the heavens about the, the Dalton Varshow strike. I'm doing air quotes here. Boba Shet baserunning error. Miscue, miscue. Not an error in my opinion. Miscue, but not his fault. We'll get to that. And so you know, you're bobbing and weaving but also you know that people Cannot really get going on stuff until the game concludes. And I was convinced for at least two innings that the game would never conclude because our time on the mortal plane had concluded. And this was us in purgatory. We were all in hell. Although I will say great night on Sports Blue Sky. Way to go, everyone. Just a real throwback to the glory days of social media when there were a lot less questionable folks on there doing nonsense and a lot more. Oh my God, did you see that? So that was fun.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, if this is hell, I would sign up for eternal damnation because this is, this is not so bad. Look, people probably care more about the game than our work schedules. My work was contingent on this too because, you know, at the ringer we don't necessarily do a standard gamer. It kind of depends on the game, on whether it's a notable game. And so there's a moral hazard situation for me because I was working on another piece, a non baseball related piece, and I was looking forward to maybe getting some sleep. And so if the game is kind of boring, if the game is run of the mill, then that's off my plate pretty much. But it was quite clear, not too deep into this one, that this was not boring, this was not routine, this is not run of the mill. And I was going to get no sleep. But that's okay because I'm willing to forego sleep for a game like this. And I still have for the most part. Part. I'm working on about two hours here as we are recording late Tuesday afternoon in the hours before game four, because they're playing again, right? There's another game and there's another game on Wednesday. It just seems like we should all just take a few days off to just digest and rest and decompress and analyze what we just saw. But no, no time, no rest for the wicked and the weary. Some people who played in that game have to start as the starting pitcher. In game four, we have it a little easier. We just have to write and edit and record a podcast, which is what we are doing now. And we're just devoting it to this game because it was such a great game and we were going to talk about this game in one way or another for this entire episode. There's, there's other banter, but it will wait. But Thomas Burton, Patreon supporter, he posted in the Discord Group, Game three feels ripe for a classic, effectively wild draft episode. And I don't know whether it will be a classic episode or not, but it will be vintage we are going to draft fun things. Or maybe not fun things, just things, noteworthy things, memorable moments from game three. Because this game had that vibe of the 2015 ALDS game five. Just like so much game crammed into this game. Yeah, so much happened and I'm winging it here. And you didn't do a whole lot of prep either, as I understand. We don't have detailed draft boards for this draft. We did our prep, I suppose by watching the game and editing or writing things about the game. But there's so much to keep track of. There's so much lore that happened here. It's such a rich text because it was two games worth of game in terms of innings and maybe more than that in terms of just how much activity was crammed into this thing. And I'm not drafting this. I suppose one could, though, it's a sort of ancillary. But the fact that there were all these parallels and echoes to Game 3 of the 2018 World Series with the Dodgers involved and some of the same personnel. But that game, even though it went 18 innings and it had these heroic performances and it ended in a solo walk off homer, Max Muncie instead of Freddy Freeman. That was not as good a game, I don't think.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

There was not as much activity in that game. And it took even longer.

[Meg Rowley]

It took even longer.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That was pre pitch clock.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And so that game took 7 hours and 20 minutes and this game took a mere 6 hours and 39 minutes despite there being much more action. There were 561 pitches and 131 plate appearances in the 2018 game. And in this one there were 609 pitches and 153 plate appearances and more scoring and all the rest.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And yet it still took a considerably shorter amount of time. So that's. That's the pitch clock for you, I guess. But point is, this game was just crammed with activity and action and comebacks and just like redemption arcs within this game. I mean, the headline of my piece was that it was a series unto itself. And it really felt like that. Like if this had just. If that had been the World Series, I would have been pretty satisfied. Right. Fans would object, I think. But I got enough drama just out of that one game. I think regardless of what happens in the rest of the series, I feel like I got my money's worth.

[Meg Rowley]

It was really something. I mean, the number, the number of times within the course of that game that I was doing that this game has everything like. But yeah, it was it was really something. When you say classic, effectively wild draft, I'm, like, imagining it in the voice of, like, it's a classic Winston CC mess around, new girl. Totally valid reference. Really, really fresh baseball show.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Clayton Kershaw appeared on it.

[Meg Rowley]

I know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And also in this game.

[Meg Rowley]

And also in this game. Well, I guess we might talk about that. I don't know if that's something other craft that we. Yeah, we might. Maybe. I think so.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I think I will.

[Meg Rowley]

I should. We. We should just get into it, I think.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, we should.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. Can I start?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, please. Yeah. I. I don't particularly care about winning.

[Meg Rowley]

Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

1. To the extent that I. We already won. We already collectively won by watching this game.

[Meg Rowley]

Okay. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna offer a broad disclaimer. Proviso. Appreciation here. I'm not drafting everything he did in this game, but.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, and by the way, our plan is to draft 18 things. Nine things, each one for each inning, not one from each inning.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

We will many innings, see if we.

[Meg Rowley]

Actually get to each. Because that is. It's a lot of things. It's many things. We don't want this. This draft to last as long as that game did. So I don't want to imply with what I'm about to say that my sense of him, either this season or in prior seasons even, was that he was loafing, that he was a loafer. I was never a subscriber to that notion such that it existed. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. Really wants to win this World Series. Yeah, He. He has played this entire postseason like his hair is on fire, which is a funny expression if you think about it for. For too terribly long, but just a level of focus matched with a quality of play that we see from guys every October, but I don't know that we necessarily see it from them for, like, two and a half solid weeks. We know that Vlad can really hit. But even just like the. The ferocity of his fielding, the tenacity of his base running, just an elevated level of play, and one that I think will be the stuff of lore regardless of the outcome of this series for the Blue Jays. And. And perhaps nowhere so obvious in last night's game as what I and everyone else on the Internet have christened the boop play. And by that I mean, you know, the time that Vladdy just scored from first, and, like, he just, like, he just booped it. He booped the plate. He went boop. And I don't know that Vlad made that noise because he doesn't strike me as someone who does boop loudly on the field, that would be a weird thing to do in the moment as a professional baseball player. But there's really no other way to describe what the sound should have been for that seventh inning play. So game is tied, right? The game was tied at that juncture. Am I right? Am I right? The game was tied.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Apologies in advance. If we screw up, we're not going to remember details or sequencing here because.

[Meg Rowley]

Again, so not going to remember.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So much happened. And.

[Meg Rowley]

And you know, you talk about how this entire. We're not going to get to 18 things. Think about how much I'm talking right now. The so much happened in this game. It felt like a series unto itself. The highs and lows of this inning were their own bit of drama because the seventh began with George Springer maybe straining his oblique. You know, Springer swings. It does not go well. He is in obvious pain. He leaves the game. I think as we are recording, we are still awaiting MRI results. But, you know, even if things are not as bad as they seemed in the moment, I wouldn't be shocked if he doesn't play tonight. So, Ty France, Remember how Ty France is on the World Series roster? Ben, Ty France comes in.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He's just. I do remember that. Now, I can't say I necessarily remembered that when the series started.

[Meg Rowley]

It inspired a lot of incredibly funny on point French jokes from me last night. So Ty France strikes out swinging, as he sometimes want to do. Nathan Lucas grounds out so famously. Two outs. Right. And the Dodgers dec to bring in Blake Trinen because there's nothing that Dave Roberts likes more than bringing in Blake Trinen.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Is it a good idea possibly bringing in Clayton Kershaw? But yes, those two things. Right.

[Meg Rowley]

And. And the score is tied for four. Vladdy comes to the plate. Vladi singles. Great. When you single, you're famously on first base. Barring any shenanigans or mistakes, he is on first base.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And then I like the single two, by the way. Now, Trinen had nothing to be clear, but. But I loved how Vladdy. It almost looked like it was kind of, you know, in the days of actually throwing intentional balls and just kind of throw the bat out there and maybe get a hit. You know, that was what it looked like. He just sort of stuck the bat out. Yep. And just it scooted up the middle. Wasn't even hit hard. But again, it was like Trine and just couldn't fool anyone with.

[Meg Rowley]

Couldn't fool anybody. Yeah. That cutter wasn't doing anything he wanted it to. And so so flatty singles and then Boba Shet comes up and Boba Shet works, you know, a long, good at bat. I will say I'm not drafting this either. Like, you know, the quality of his abs, given the layoff I've been pretty impressed with. Works a seven pitch at bat and he singles on a 95 mile an hour four seamer, which wasn't as far outside as the ball that Vladdy singled on, but was like, you know, clip the zone. He's in protagon mode. He's singles again. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. Is on first base. That's important to the impressiveness of this. When you, when you see the high home angle, no Vladi in sight, and yet he comes round to score. He is chugging along. He has been sent. That was a theme of the night. These first. These third base coaches were like, we've lost our stop sign. We don't know where it is, and we have no choice but to send you. And then he slides hard and he bounces up and just like boops home plate over. Over Will Smith's outstretched hand. It was not a bad throw. It was not a bad play from Will Smith. It was just a perfectly placed boop. And again, it is Vladimir Guerrero Jr. Not exactly fleet of foot, however much fire he might be playing with this October, scoring from first base on a single because Vladdy really wants to win the World Series. And then, yes, for a brief moment there, the. The Blue Jays were ahead. You know, that's what we in the biz call foreshadowing.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That was super exciting. And I'll take a Vladdy pick too, just to stick with the theme. I'm not saying it's actually my number one moment, but just as we're celebrating Vlad here in this round. So, yeah, you get the throwback looking like his dad, bad ball hitter. Then you get him showing off the wheels. And it sounds more impressive than it is that he scored from first on a single. It would have been a double, probably, if Boba Shet had been running better. Sure. And then also if. If TE Oscar Hernandez had played it better. I mean, it wasn't a great throw. But the bigger issue was that it just he, you know, he didn't anticipate the carom at all, really. And it's like you've been playing right field out there all season. Like you. You got to get to that ball more quickly.

[Meg Rowley]

This was one of his worst throws. You're right. I'm mixing some of them up, but this is giving me an opportunity. To.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He did have redemption later.

[Meg Rowley]

He did have redemption later. And this is also giving me opportunity to ask you, why are there so many people down the line? Too many guys down there mentioned down there all night long there. It just seemed like it was gonna be a problem. And this ball you. We're not gonna get to all 18 things. I'm only remembering half the game right now. This ball did hit off the guy with the parabolic mic, didn't it? Wasn't this.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That may have it. I couldn't quite tell. And you know, as long as it's not intentional, then it's still in play.

[Meg Rowley]

But to be clear, but it was.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Too close for comfort.

[Meg Rowley]

Everyone down there is trying their very.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Booking it but to get the hell.

[Meg Rowley]

Out of the way. But there was like a church. Vans worth traffic.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. Crowd. Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

You got the extra umpire down the line because it's the postseason. You got the. The guy with the field. Mike. You got the. The. The ball gal or guy. I don't even remember who. Who is down there. It's just like too many folks down the line. They're trying to bob and weave to Oscar. I mean, look, here's the thing I'm going to say about the Dodgers, and it's funny to criticize them because they did end up winning this game. I feel like sometimes they would just be well served as an organization to tell some of the guys on their team, no, you can't do that. Sorry, Tay. Oscar, I know you think you can play right field, but. Yeah, there is a lot of evidence contradicting that notion.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He is really lazy out there. Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

So bad. And I say that with affection for.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Teo, but that should be home field advantage. You're not on the road. You should know how this plays. Yeah, I'm watching that, thinking, how are you not getting to that ball? But nonetheless, Vlad was absolutely tearing it up. And he was just motoring. And it was the attitude of the plate, boop or slap or whatever you want to call it that just fires up. Calling it me up.

[Meg Rowley]

The entire Internet agrees. The entire Internet agrees. Is a boop.

[Ben Lindbergh]

What I will take then is Vlad showing off his defensive skill in this game.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Because when he threw out. And again, there were so many guys thrown out at third base or home that it's. It's hard to keep them straight. But was it Teo who was thrown out or was it K. The throw that Vlad made across the diamond.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

From first to third. And it was. I saw Sarah Lanks stat 87.6 miles per hour. His fastest assist of the year. And there was a lot of that. Just like fastest, hardest. You know, Kershaw threw a harder pitch than he had thrown since the previous season. You know, everyone runs a little bit harder. Yes. Swings a little bit faster, throw is a little bit harder. And Vlad has made some really spectacular plays at first base and he's not a great first baseman. Defensive stats differ, but he is not a liability over there. Like he has made himself into a capable defender there. He has remade himself physically. And right now, you know, I don't know how long this will last, but he's an all round player. Like he can do it all. Obviously the bat is the biggest attribute that he has, but he is not absolutely. He's just not someone you, you stick out there and you just live with defensive liability because he's going to hit some dingers. Like he, he's done it all in this postseason. And obviously the offensive stats are pretty sensational. But what will stick with me even more than that, maybe because we knew he was a good hitter and we' him be locked in and rake.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. Tear it up.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. What? I was not as appreciative of not watching him day in and day out. And I don't know whether Blue Jays fans are saying I, I was not familiar with your game even though I watch you all the time. Like whether he has raised his game to a new level this postseason as an all around player or whether he's been doing this all year and I just haven't fully appreciated it. But he has contributed on both sides of the ball and on the bases. And that has been so much more fun than just seeing him be a one dimensional slugger. As good as he is at that too, as good as his bat is, he's, he's doing it all. And that will really stick with me regardless of how this series ends.

[Meg Rowley]

It was TE Oscar Hernandez, but it was, it was Kike Hernandez single. So KE singled right on ground ball to Jimenez. And then TE Oscar tried to advance and Vladdy said, no, you do not get to advance.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And there was a lot in this game and I tried to reckon with this in my piece just to produce these sensational plays. It takes a combination of a great play and a misplay. Often, not always. Sometimes someone can make a perfectly valid and defensible decision and someone else is just better and the ball beats you. But a lot of the time there's an ill advised decision to run. But then it also requires a fantastic play by someone to catch you and so there was a lot of that. And Joe Sheen noted this in his newsletter. And I agree that we've gotten a little loose with the term toot plan thrown out on the basis like an incap. Not every time that you make an out on the bases are you an incompoop. I mean, sometimes you're gonna make outs on the bases. But there were some times in this game where, you know, guys should not have gone and you know, you're, you're breaking the, the rule, you're making the third out or first out at third base and you're just supposed to be so sure that you can make it. And this was one of those cases where Te Oscar should not have gone there. Like, he should have had to be absolutely 100% certain that he could make it in order to make that decision to go. And yet it still required Vlad to throw a absolute laser on the money to Clement to get him.

[Meg Rowley]

Yep.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So Hernandez should have accounted for that possibility. But we can still celebrate Vlad's end of the play.

[Meg Rowley]

Oh yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

While saying that Te Oscar should not have given him the opportunity.

[Meg Rowley]

I agree. I think that this, this game had a mix of everything, right. They'd had times where it was like, why are you going now? And it had other times where it was, wow, that was a hell of a fricking throw, man. That was a great play. You know, sometimes you just get got and, and I think that when it's, it's close like this, there's all kinds of math that goes into these decisions. But you know, just like you don't want to make the first or the final out at third. Like sometimes you want to force the other team to show you they can make a really great play and there's room for that too. So.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yep. Okay, what's next for you?

[Meg Rowley]

Oh, what is next for me? Well, I guess maybe to stick with the theme of the the seventh inning, I will go with Ohtani's game tying homer in the bottom of that frame. I'm sure that we're going to get to the many intentional walks later. And you know, Ben Clemens, as he has want to do, broke down some of the math on that spoiler alert, don't do it most of the time. But I can understand, particularly for a man with a proclivity for intentionally walking guys, which is something we are all learning about John Schneider in real time, he can be forgiven for not wanting to mess with the guy who went double home run, double game tying home run. And that was Ohtani shot in the Seventh again. Remember, the Blue Jays had retaken the lead in the top of the inning, and Ohtani made sure that that wasn't the case. And look, much has been made about this pitch, Ben. It was pretty bad pitch.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Hardly has a more middle, middle pitch.

[Meg Rowley]

Ever been thrown right down the dick, as we like to say on effectively wild. And sometimes you throw a bad pitch, and sometimes you throw a bad pitch and you can get away with it because, you know, maybe you catch the guy by surprise, maybe it sneaks in there. But if you're Sir Anthony Dominguez and you're throwing this pitch to show Ohtani what it means is that you have a tight, bulky. And that's exactly what happened. And it was pretty, it was pretty spectacular. Again, I don't think that they should have engaged in so much intentional walking later, but I understand why it probably felt to them like they should have. So.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. And I wonder, despite what the numbers say, and we'll link to Ben's blog about this. And he found that it's really bad, like to do this. You know, he ran the numbers and sim did and everything and, and came up with this costing the Blue jays something like 13% in win expectancy, which is an enormous number, right, in a single game for a manager decision. I mean, usually even, even the bad manager decisions that people pile on, we're talking, you know, low single digits, percentage points in terms of win expectancy. And so cumulatively, and that was counting four intentional walks, for all intents and purposes, it was five. It was, there was an unintentional intentional one mixed in there. Now, those didn't actually come back to bite in this game. Now they're, they're playing with fire, certainly. And I am curious in game four, which will have happened by the time people hear this, whether this will persist. Like, to what extent do you want to pursue the strategy? Are you gonna walk him leading off the game? Are you just like, all right, that's it, that's it for me. He's not going to beat us again. Not going to give him a chance to swing unless he comes up literally with the bases loaded or something. Just not happening. Make someone else beat you. We'll see how far they take that tactic. But it didn't actually hurt them in this game. And I wonder how many Blue Jays fans were actually sitting there running the numbers in their heads versus just saying, you know what? I do not want to face this guy either. Absolutely put up the four fingers. Just not my problem. Shohei Ohtani, you can just Go down to first base. If anything, people are probably wishing that they had intentionally walked him more. If they had walked him in the seventh instead of giving up that homer, then this might all have ended up differently.

[Meg Rowley]

I imagine that if you're a Blue Jays fan, you feel fine about all of the intentional walks, except, and here I'm, I'm setting aside the fifth one because, you know, it wasn't four fingers. Send him down right. They, they pitched to him, he just ended up, he walked on four. But I would think that all of them feel fine except for intentional walk number three, which again, they didn't end up paying for in the way that you would, you would think. But when you, when you intentionally walk Otani and Bets to then load the basis for Freddie Freeman, I bet that one felt pretty nervy in the moment. You know, I bet that one felt bad because you're just like, are we gonna, surely we're going to be made to pay for this because Freddie Freeman is a good hitter. And you know, you're like, you don't want to face Ohtani, you don't want to set up a platoon advantaged matchup with Bets. Oh, so then we'll just face Freddie Freeman with the bases loaded. And I'm sure every Blue Jays fan was like, I remember a time that Freddie Freeman batted with the bases loaded in the World Series, and I didn't care for it or I wouldn't have if I had been a Yankees fan. So that probably made everybody feel pretty nerve, nervy, even though it didn't end up mattering all that much.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Okay, well, again, sticking with the theme of piggybacking on your picks, I will just take if I can. This isn't one particular play, but just the lump sum of Ohtani intentional walks here. Even though I don't like that this is possible, all else be equal, I would rather get to see the great hitter have to hit. And we've, we've talked plenty about intentional walks and whether there's a way around them. And I, I've said I don't care for them and I, I wish the teams could be forced to face that guy because it's basically always more entertaining to get to see that matchup that the team wants to avoid. And we got a question about this for, from Ryan Patreon supporter who was pointing us to some online discussion after this game about whether there's something that could be done to prevent this. And a number of people have suggested, well, maybe if you walk the same guy more than Once in the same game, then the penalty increases. So the second time it's two bases and the third time it's three bases. And it gets into all sorts of issues which we have discussed before where. Well, how do you actually legislate out intentional walks? There's a reason they exist because how can you force someone to throw strikes and you don't want to incentivize people to throw at people and hit them and plunk them and put them on. And maybe there are ways around that where you can say that you have to throw a strike to someone, let's say. Or yes, maybe there's kind of a standard. Maybe the, the IBB just always carries a two base penalty. There are ways around it. And this sort of escalating penalty within a game, I guess maybe has some merit to it. With the same caveats that we have discussed before.

[Meg Rowley]

It doesn't.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Look, it's always going to be problematic. There's a reason why we're stuck with this tactic, but I don't care for it. However, it ascended to such a preposterous level with, with how often it happened in this game that it just became the latest manifestation of oh, Ohtani is on a different plane of athletic existence because he just, he set so many records, so many different types of records really. And you know, he's the first player with multiple games with 12 or more total bases in a postseason. And he's the first player with three multi homer games in a postseason. And, and the base's empty intentional walks, which he just drew three of them. And there had been one, I think in all of World Series history since the intentional walk became official in 1955. Albert Pujols in game five in 2011. And Ohtani just tripled that here. And he's the first player to be intentionally walked four times in a postseason game, which has happened quite rarely, even in the regular season. And it's, you know, largely Barry Bonds and just the fact that he reached base nine times. Yeah, and I know that it was an 18 inning game, so you could kind of double it and. Well, I guess reaching base 4 1/2 times in a regular game doesn't sound as impressive. But nine times, I mean, blew away the previous postseason record and then also tied the regular or postseason record all time, nine times in a single game. And they put him on most of those times. And you know, the combination of like all of these intentional walks and the two homers and the four extra base hits, it was just, you know, we talked about what to call this right. A. A day where a hitter just doesn't make any outs, a no outer or whatever we talked about, like, is this the equivalent to a. A hitter perfect game? And he did essentially have a perfect perfect game. As to the extent that a DH can, with the exception of. Of being thrown out that one time he tried to steal. But just a ridiculous game and just reflected the respect, the fear.

[Meg Rowley]

Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That he commands and instills at this point where they're just like, you know what? I have seen enough. Why should we can, you know, and just throw out the wood expectancy models. I don't know whether Schneider was actually looking at them or not, or whether he was just going by gut feel and vibes. And I am terrified of this guy. And he keeps hitting homers and no more. So if, and you know, it's, it's also like, it's, it's on the other hitters to make them pay for that.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They just haven't. If, if Mookie, we're hitting better and he hasn't lately.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And you know, he looked like his old self for a stretch there. Yeah. But now he, he seems to be back to not hitting anything hard.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And you know, that's down to him. And if they keep doing this, you know, give Mookie enough opportunities to make you pay for that, eventually he will.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right. But you know, the intentional walk carries a built in penalty, which is that it's usually a bad idea.

[Meg Rowley]

It's usually a bad idea.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Even with Shohei Otani up and especially if you have Mookie Bets and Freddie Freeman batting behind you, it's no slouch. So Mookie just has to hit like Mookie and that will make people pitch to Ohtani.

[Meg Rowley]

I understand why, you know, unusual games like this invite like rules discourse, but I do find it kind of tiresome because there is such an obvious built in penalty to intentionally walking a guy. He's on base, you know, I mean, it fundamentally changes the calculus of what you're expecting from, say, bets in a moment where you, you have a fast runner on first, an extra base hit is going to score Ohtani. And it doesn't change the calculus just because, like Ohtani got thrown out at second in that. Right after that first intentional walk. Right. Well, a little taint tag just to make it gross. Sorry, Ohtani, you can't be, you can't be doing that. You got a little paint tag. And so like the notion that we need to legislate this away feels Just fundamentally ridiculous to me. Think about all of the qualifiers that you put on and all of the, you know, the records broken. This just doesn't happen very often. It certainly doesn't happen very often in the same game. This was such an unusual circumstance with such an unusual player, and I know that, like, there are things about Ohtani that make it feel sensical to not face him. Just like, you know, there were. There were intentional walks issued to Vlad in the ALCS where I'm like, I don't think the mass supports this, but I get the. I understand the feeling, right? Like, don't let that guy beat you. I understand why a manager would feel that way. I don't think the decisions that we saw on display last night would have been universal with any guy in the dugout. Right. Like, John Schneider likes to walk people. I mean, I don't think he likes it, but it is a tactic that he views as having merit in a way that far exceeds, like, the. I think, the average appetite for it from big league managers today. So I don't think that there's any. This is, like. This would be, like, legislating for nothing. This is not a problem that really needs to be solved. But it did manifest in some very funny ways yesterday. I don't know if we'll count this as a draft pick to move things along. There was, like, a small moment within. I think it was. I think it was before the third intentional walk. It was definitely during one of the extra innings intentional walks. They cut to a little kid in the. In the stands, and he just was mouthing, are they gonna walk him again? And then they did, and he just looked so pissed, you know, the way that little kids do, where it's like, little kids are, you know, wonderful gremlins, you know, a combination of those things. They do have, like, a very. I think, often have a very strong, like. Like, native sense of fairness. It's part of why siblings fight so much when they were little. And it just. It so obviously offended his, like, little kid morality that, like, the Blue Jays got to do this, that they. That they got to have this pass. And, like, he's a child, so, like, he especially doesn't understand or need to understand necessarily the math involved in this and, like, why this is, on some level, like, a bad decision that the Blue Jays are making. He doesn't know any of that. He just knows that he wants to watch his guy hit, and he's being denied that. Right. And he. You know, he's not remembering that he is up super late on a school night. That's not what's registering for him. What's registering for him is that he's not getting to watch Ohtani hit despite having to listen to that dork ass song at some point.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So many times.

[Meg Rowley]

So many times. So many times. The one thing. Oh, this is reminding me of the one thing that we do have to talk about from the first two games. Then. Then did you clock the moment where the Fox broadcast dared to play a song from Transatlanticism with Michael Buble narrating to introduce the series in Toronto? I was. I almost texted Gibbert and then I was like, I want to tell him because, like, I'm sure that they get a royalty check for that, right? Like, yeah, you know, that has to be cleared. But also. How dare you? How dare. And I. And. And now I will pay the broadcast a compliment. I thought that the music choices between commercials, especially as the game went on, Beautiful.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes.

[Meg Rowley]

We should draft that. Like, it was so they really. They really had it nailed. But when they played I need you so much closer and then Buble is narrating, I was like, first of all, this doesn't make any sense sets. This is not, like, phonically consistent. You can't have Michael Buble. And I don't dislike Michael Bubley. I do think it's so funny that Ohtani uses his version of Feeling Good to, like, there's so many good covers of that song. And he picked the dork ass 1. The dorkiest ass one of them of all of them. And also, Michael Blue BL is one of those singers where, like, he's weird to watch sing. His mouth is doing stuff to aid the particular sound that he achieves, and it just makes him really weird to watch sing. Anyway.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, a little kid who was like, season. He's. He's Canadian. It's okay.

[Meg Rowley]

But wait, you mean because he's Canadian, not because of Christmas, right?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, I was implying to some extent. Okay, I'm sure this the streams seasonal. There's got to be a seasonal increase for Buble whether or not you partake.

[Meg Rowley]

But I don't. But I like Bubles. Wait, sorry. We are going to continue. I like Buble's Christmas album. It is perfect Buble, because all Christmas music is dorky and so it fits very well. And look, I own like, multiple Louis Primas on vinyl. So again, this is like a real, you know, pot calling the kettle black situation.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I like a crooner.

[Meg Rowley]

I like a crooner. I'm Italian. Having said that why are we getting so. It's a recession thing, right? This is a recession indicator. All the Christmas commercials we're already getting. It is early this year. It is an indication to me that they do not think we're going to have money to spend in a month because, boy, oh, boy, is the creep intense like it is. It is early. And I like holidays. And I am like, why are there Christmas trees at Home Depot? It's too early for that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, well, I'm with you. It's very rude to appropriate the music of the Mariners in this series of all series. And I'm also with you on. On the. The sound drops there. The. The music cues kind of like the way I used to program effectively Wild. Something thematically related to what was being said or what was happening. They got a giggle out of me when they played tomorrow.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

At some point. That was good, Manny. That was good. So, yeah, I'm with you.

[Meg Rowley]

You did a good job.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And. And that kid that you're highlighting there, that's out of the mouths of babes. That's the same impulse that I feel where it's like, what. They can't. They can't just do that. They can't just, you know, he's up next. They have to face him. Too bad. And of course, that kid's a Dodgers fan, I guess, but still, that. That impulse, I think, is why I instinctively recoil against just saying pass, even if there's a penalty associated. Okay, so we each took Ohtani picks. We each took Vlad picks. I guess you kind of took two Ohtani picks there. And we've accounted for the stars. Now I will take one moment from one of the unexpected heroes as opposed to those expected heroes, and that's Will Klein. Will Klein was one of the top standout players from this game. And I guess to pick one moment. I'll take the last pitch he threw. I'll take the curveball he threw to get the strikeout of Tyler Hyneman. Just summoning his last reserves for his 72nd pitch.

[Meg Rowley]

Amazing.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Doubling his previous high in a major league game of 36. Doubling his previous high of two innings by throwing four. And clearly had nothing left in that last inning. He was gassed and for good reason. And his velo was down and his command was off. And he somehow just dug deep because he had to. He was essentially the last slide of defense, and he knew it. It. And now he was helped out by the fact that the Blue Jays lineup in extra innings, and especially late extra innings, was much diminished.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I don't really fault Schneider that much for this. I think when you look at the individual substitutions he made, they were all, if not necessary, at least sensible, I think, or. Or mostly like, some of them, hey, Springer got hurt, or some of them, you know, just you had to pinch run for Boba Shet, or you had to pinch run for someone else, and it made sense. And the upshot of that was, though, that they had, like, half a lineup left in late innings, and there were a lot of easy outs.

[Meg Rowley]

It was a lot of easy outs.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, Vlad. And guys you could work around. And. And Kirk was out of the game at that point, too, because he had been pinch run. Four, two. And. And I get it. You got to press the advantage. But I. The way that that went, they just. They did not have a lot of clout left in that lineup in the late innings. And so that may have helped Klein get through that, but just may have. Yeah. Heroic performance by a guy who was essentially the last man up, though he probably shouldn't have been. And this is something that I think we had talked about, and, you know, it just seemed like the bullpen hierarchy for the Dodgers was sort of upside down. And I. I remember saying, like, hey, just, you know, Justin Robleski, he seems pretty good. Like, if your alternative is Blake Trinen, why not see if you can ride Robleski for a while? And Dave didn't do it. And again, like, he had Rebleski pitching fine, and he brings in Trinen, and I get that you're going for the platoon advantage, but I guess he just looks cooked at this point. I mean, you know, you don't have to be a super scout out to see it. It just looks like. I don't know if it's a mechanical thing, if it's a physical thing, if it's an injury or. Or what, but he is not the Blake Tran who was great for the Dodgers last postseason. And so to pretend that he is or to have some residual loyalty, it just kind of confounds me. And. And that could have easily cost the Dodgers the game because the rest of the bullpen was nails. And that's not something that I would have forecasted to be clear. Like, yeah, you know, I'm saying that there are better options here, even with. With Vessia out. You. You look at someone like Klein or you look at someone like Henriquez or. Or Rableski and say, well, it can't be worse than Tran. Like, you know, these guys have good stuff, and they've had Some success, at least. Ridiculous stuff. I mean, the fact that that's really a sign of. Of the times. And, you know, I. This could be almost a separate pick. Maybe. Maybe it should be. But the fact that, like, break glass in case of emergency.

[Meg Rowley]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And the guys you're bringing in from the 13th inning on are pumping triple digits out there with, like, nasty breaking stuff. And I had the stat in my piece that there were more pitches thrown 98 mph or faster from the 13th inning on by the Dodgers alone in this one game than there were in the entire 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012 World Series is combined. I had to skip over 2011 there because it would have ruined the stat. So I cheated a little. But for whole World Series is there were 26, a total of 26 pitches thrown that were 98 miles per hour faster. And Enriquez and Klein, they threw 37 all by their lonesome. And they were like the guys that Dave didn't want to use. The guys who were either working in low leverage or off the rosters entirely or just not being used, like Klein, Enriquez and Raski, who threw 6 and 2 third scoreless in this game, had recorded a total of zero outs this postseason prior to Game 3. So these guys were buried on the bullpen depth chart, and they came up huge here. And I'd lump Jack Dreyer into that group. He barely pitch. And I guess it's good that they have someone who's not completely dead for games four and five, but I just. I, you know. Yeah, you have Sasaki, and he's going to be the headliner in that bullpen. And. And he did his job. Again, a little shaky, but got five big outs. But it's those unsung guys and. And Klein, number one, who was, you know, like, just traded a bunch of times and was just an unsung guy and kind of an afterthought and just comes up absolutely huge. So four scoreless from him and. And everyone comped him, of course, to Nathan Evaldi in 2018, game three. And I think adjusted for the fact that Klein's a reliever. Yeah, it's sort of a similar feat of endurance and desperation. And unlike Evaldi, who ended up being tagged with the loss in that game, Klein gets the win.

[Meg Rowley]

And he had dramatic ends to his final two innings. Right. Like the. The one the inning before he. His final one, which was the.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The last one would have been the 17th. No, wait, no, no, the 18th. Because the. The Dodgers then corrected in the bottom.

[Meg Rowley]

So the final out of the 17th inning, which was, was Schneider like lining back out to Klein. Klein makes this great grab on Davis Schneider lineout and so he's pumped. It's exciting. You know, he looks like he's pitching for the Dodgers like while on Rum Springer. That's great. And then, you know, he, Justin Turner.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Beard and the AJ puck.

[Meg Rowley]

There's a long, you know, there's a story tradition here. And then, you know, you get him with that big strike out of Heineman, which again, like you, you think to yourself, how impressive is it to strike out Tyler Heinemann? And then you're like, it's pretty impressive when like you're a reliever and that's your million pitch and you've never gone this long before and the stakes could not possibly be higher.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Incredible. And, and he was so pumped to get out of all of the previous innings and probably, I don't know, maybe, I don't know what Roberts was telling him, if anything, but to get through that third inning, maybe he's thinking, okay, this is it, I just gotta dig deep. Like this is, this is the end, you know, leave nothing right in reserve here. And then to have to come back out for a fourth inning after that, after you're scraping the bottom of the barrel, that's when you' vulnerable because you've sort of set a finish line for yourself mentally. And then it turns out that the finish line moved. You know, it's a moving target and that could really leave you diminished and depleted. And yeah, he just, he came up huge, so like he deserves to be higher on the bullpen hierarchy. He might be out of commission for a while, so I don't know, he.

[Meg Rowley]

Might not pitch for another two, two games.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I mean, like the series could be over by the time he's right, he's.

[Meg Rowley]

Ready to go again. It is sort of amazing. Like there was were moments where I, and I don't imagine that they, these decisions were made with like an 18 inning game in mind. But like there was a point yesterday where Dominguez blows the save, Bassett comes out, and then Bassett only throws one inning and it ends up being a relatively easy inning for him. And then we get two innings from Hoffman. And at the time I was like, gosh, they should have let Basset go longer and maybe they should have to preserve Hoffman and Fisher. But like, you know, I guess Chris Bassett, get ready to throw a couple innings tonight, buddy. Because like, yeah, I know, you know, who else is left in that pen who isn't Completely exhausted in any game like this.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. When you're at the tail end and you're running Klein out there for four innings, of course you look back with hindsight and say, oh, that guy. I had a quick hook with him, right. I sure could have used another inning or two out of him. But, of course, you. You don't expect it to go 18.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. Okay. My next pick is going to be the eerie threat of looming starters. So at various points during this broadcast, we saw. I mean, obviously, we saw Clayton Kershaw pitch for an inning, but we also just saw, like, the spectral form of Shane Bieber. We had the whispered plea of, let me pitch from Yamamoto. And I think that one of these. One of the ways that games like this ratchet up tension as they progress and you start to tick down names on the bullpen depth chart is the question of, well, what do we do if no one scores? Gains urgency, right? Because eventually you've exhausted all your actual relievers, and you've exhausted all of the starters who have been pressed into relief work because. Because it's the post season, and you don't need a full rotation. And then you start to do the math of, like, well, who's on their throw day, right? And it was interesting to me that, you know, part of this was Yamamoto seemingly volunteering to go, right? Offering to go, even though, like, I guess we technically got into his throw day because the game crept past midnight. But we weren't really in his throw day in the way that you would traditionally understand that we were in Snells. Right. And so the fact that we. I. I don't think Snell ever went out to the bullpen. Right. It was just.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Didn't seem.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, yeah. It was just Yamamoto like, I'll go. And some of that was him telling Roberts he was ready again. Sometimes Dave needs to say no to guys, because I was like, is this a good idea? He just threw a complete game. He's like, very recently, you know, with the. With the transcontinental flight, and in between, it's his throw day, because that's how time works. But, like, again, that we traditionally understand that. And then, you know, the. The Blue Jays had, I think, fewer options, and they did the thing that you often do where it's like, well, Shane, how many are you gonna give us tonight? Because you're gonna give us more in a couple of hours. And so you just have this, like. And then you. And then you start to do, you know, the. The math of. And the. And the investigation of Getting a Mormon putting them away. What right where you're like, is. Is the mere act of them getting ready going to pose a problem for them, even if they don't enter. Enter this game? And it. It seems like the consensus on this is that no, it's, it's often fine. But you do wonder, you do wonder, and you kind of wonder that with Shane Bieber maybe regardless, just because. Been a little up and down time for him.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, that's. That's great. I would have taken Yamamoto if you had not just. He didn't get into this game, but I don't want it to be forgiven that he was about to because Klein was done.

[Meg Rowley]

Klein was done.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. If that game had not ended in the 18th, then we would have seen Yamato. And part of me is. Is sad that we didn't because that would have just ratcheted things up to another level of nuts to have a starter who's already just doing things that are inconceivable in this era. Right.

[Meg Rowley]

The.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The first pitcher to complete consecutive postseason starts since Kurt Shilling in 2001, I believe, and, and the first to throw a postseason complete game since Verlander in 2017 or a World Series complete game since Quato in 2015. This just isn't done. And to do it back to back and to look as in command as. As easy as it. It seemed to be for him when he got things under control later in, in game two, he was a little shaky at first. They made him work as they had done with Snell, but then he completely settled down and. And cruised the rest of the way and barely seemed to break a sweat. And I know that he has a reputation for having just very efficient mechanics and everything's on the line and direct to the plate and, you know, he's the envy of. Of other starters who are remodeling their deliveries on his. And so, okay, maybe you think that there's a little less strain, hopefully. Although obviously he had injury issues last year, so it's not as if he's impervious to this stuff. So, yeah, that's a little dangerous and a little scary, but his willingness to do it, it is commendable. And I don't know whether other options they realistically had at that point. And I, I would have been pretty pissed if this game had ended with a position player pitcher on the mound.

[Meg Rowley]

Oh, yeah?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Even if that would have, I guess, sort of been the. The icing on top of the weirdness of this game, it would have been A bummer. It would have been a real bummer, yeah. If this would have ended. And that seemed to be a real possibility. According to what Tom Verducci said, Roberts told us him in the 17th or 18th or whenever that report was, that, I guess before Yamamoto volunteered and started warming, it looked like that was a possibility. I was thinking to myself, I'd rather see Ohtani here than to raise the white flag like that. Now, I would have liked to see Ohtani because that just would have been another level of ridiculousness to have a guy who's been in a game for seven hours and has been on base nine times. I guess, you know, couple home run trots don't stress you too much. But even as a dh, guy's got to be feeling it at that point. And you don't want to endanger his health and you don't want to, obviously, you know, jeopardize his start in Game four, where you're going to need some length from someone, but if he's your only option there and you're thinking about, like, putting Kik Hernandez or someone on the mound, I mean, but they could because they had.

[Meg Rowley]

Had. They had pulled him. He had. This was the thing. I was like, I don't know. This is like a bad choice. You might need that guy on the mound if it comes to it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, no, good point, but. But I really would have rather had them just go for the jugular and say, we got to win this one and we'll figure out Game four. And, you know, it's unusual circumstances, to say the least. And. And I would have liked to see Otani come in in relief if the only alternative was to put a position player, pitcher there and essentially surrender. But we didn't get to that point. I guess fortunately for the Dodgers and maybe fortunately for Ohtani. But, yes, that was quite something that Yamamoto was up at all. And I guess I will take Kershaw coming in then, because, yes, he was warming for three innings. I mean, he was up and down. He was warm certainly by that point. And that was the specter looming over everything, because we knew there was going to be a Kershaw moment in this series. You know, he's on the roster. You knew Roberts was going to want to bring him in for that big moment at home, especially his last outing. Potentially redemption for getting tattooed in his earlier, previous postseason outing. Don't want him to go out that way. Are these considerations that Dave Roberts should be putting first and foremost over what's going to help the team win? Probably Not. But it just seemed inevitable given the whole history of Dave Roberts and Clayton Kershaw in the postseason. And, and so in he comes in this huge moment, and I'm hoping I'm getting the sequencing right. But this was after Roberts had walked Andres Jimenez, right? Yep.

[Meg Rowley]

He.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And that was, you know, as. As wild as anything Schneider did. Intentional walk wise for Roberts to walk Jimenez. Not Jimenez, but one of the weakest, best hitters. I mean, in this series and in the sport this year. Like, you know that.

[Meg Rowley]

But.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, well, yeah, great glove and all, but really, you know, it's always iffy to load the bases at all. And that's the guy you're issuing the free pass to. And then you bring in Kershaw and, you know, she. And did decent work and he was shaky, but he, he did his job. And then Kershaw comes in and, oh, my goodness, there's just so much, much baggage. And you're remembering all the history and all the times that Clayton Kershaw was placed in situations that were not conducive to his success in the postseason. And I'm not wholly defending him as a postseason pitcher. He's been bad. He's been bad, you know, despite all the mitigating circumstances. But there are a lot of mitigating circumstances. The lack of bullpen support, the lack of run support.

[Meg Rowley]

And there have been times when he's been really good.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, and there are times, but, you know, and all the, like, short rest outings and, and, and starts and the working out of the pen as, you know, just all of the things that he's been asked to do. And here he is, the last gasp of his career, and he's coming in, in this huge moment. Bases loaded and Nathan Lucas is up and. Okay, that's a good matchup. Platoon wise, splits wise. And then he runs the count full and there are three consecutive pitches that are probably balls in some cases, almost certainly balls. And, And Lucas helps him out and, you know, like, some credit to Kershaw for keeping.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, he had to protect, too. And he's aware of the zone. Like I get right. He got, he got written a little hard on, on the Internet for that swing at the slider, but I was.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Like, yeah, I'm sure he's. He'd like it back. And if you're a Jays fan, you're. You're certainly sitting there saying, don't swing. We get a run, you know, and maybe we win the game. If that happens, if he just doesn't swing, swing at one of those pitches, but easier said than done. And Kershaw did at least make those pitches look close and competitive enough to Lucas that he got him to chase, and then he gets the grounder to get out of it. And I thought that he'd be back out there. I thought there was a real chance at least, because just the whole history of, like, Kershaw being pushed one batter too far, one inning too far. Right. And this time, Roberts showed some restraint. Now, if he had known that this game was going to go 18, he probably wouldn't have showed that restraint.

[Meg Rowley]

Maybe he wouldn't have. But do you think. Do you think that if it wasn't Vladdy up to lead off that inning, that he would have pushed Kershaw further?

[Ben Lindbergh]

I think maybe so.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, I think he might have. I think that he was like, oh, right. I don't. I don't need to play with that particular fire, which was tragic because then we were denied that matchup, which I wanted very badly. I mean, I understand it would have struck stress Dodger fans out, but I was like, I think you should. I think you should make him please face Vladi, though.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Good for Roberts for leaving well enough alone for once and just letting Kershaw leave on a high note. Just exit like George Costanza if, you know, and just like, maybe that's the end of his career. Maybe that's the last he ever throws. I wouldn't count on that. I think that, you know, if the Dodgers are. Are up in a potential clincher and they have a substantial lead, and especially if they're still. Still at home, if, you know, if they're winning, let's say, late in game five or something, I absolutely would not put it past Roberts to bring Kershaw back out in that situation. So I'm not saying we've seen the last of Clayton Kershaw in this series, but if that is the end of Clayton Kershaw's career, then he went out with one more happy signature postseason moment for once. So, yeah, the starters pitching in. Always a storyline I'm into.

[Meg Rowley]

I want to test your. The waters on me doing, like an anti good pick.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, sure. Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

We got to talk about this strike zone, and we got to talk about the home plateau because it's a hard job. We are defenders of umpires. Not like always, but we. We are of the opinion that big league umpires do a very hard job. Really? Well, a lot of the time, I didn't feel like that was true of Mark Wagner yesterday. We can start with the Dalton Varsho of it all. Bauman wrote a whole piece about that, which I encourage people to check out, if only because the phrase bridge troll, auto strike needs to gain traction in the vernacular. There was that whole incident where Varsho is. Is thrown a clear ball for. And not like by a little bit, right? This didn't nick the zone. This wasn't borderline call. This was a pitch several inches above the strike zone. Dalton Vershow rightly believed that he should have been issued a walk in that moment because he had just seen ball four. He starts down to first base. The call from Wagner is very late, and I'm sure that because it took so long to come in, he was like, well, surely I have walked. He gets a late strike two call. Dodger Stadium is rocking. It is impossible to hear. And again, he is proceeding to first base because he has just seen ball four. He does not register that it is a ball. Boba Shet has wandered off the bag because he thinks he's going to second. Um, I don't know. It was. It was a little hard for me to tell on replay. It initially didn't look like the. The first base coach had registered what had happened. Then there was an angle later that made it seem like he was trying to get Bo's attention. I don't know the base. The base coaches did not cover themselves in glory for either team in this game. And so I don't know that I want to extend the benefit of the doubt, but I kind of do because the whole situation was so strange. And then Tyler Glasnow realizes this is a live ball and basically picks off Boba Shet, who looks furious. Dalton Varshow looks furious. The entire Blue Jays dugout looks furious. Varsho does eventually walk, but now instead of having two on with no outs and a real rally going, they are in a position where they have one on with one out. And it immediately becomes relevant because Alejandra Kirk then singles. And surely even a compromise, Boba Shet probably would have scored from second on that. @ the very least, you have the bases loaded and no one out, and. And Addison Barger comes up, strikes out. And then Ernie Clement flew out to center field. And if there had only been, you know, one out, two out like that would have scored a run. You know, assuming the bases are loaded and that, and that Bo isn't able to just score, the inning would have continued. So, you know, it ended up being quite consequential in this game. And there's this frustrating thing going on right now where, like, I understand why? You know, they. They tested the challenge system in spring training. They've made the determination that it's coming to the majors next year, but they've had a whole regular season where guys have not been able to hone a strategy here. You can't introduce new rule stuff in the playoffs. I, I get the logic of that, but also there is this very strange thing going on where, like, six months from now, that just doesn't happen. Because if that gets called a strike, Dalton version goes a tap, tap, tap, and it gets resolved, and then he's on first, Bo's on second, and we all move on with our lives. We probably don't even remember the moment except to be like, that was a really weird strike call. And I think that Bauman is right, that there is like, I. We got an email about me being rude about TSA agents, and I. I'm here to tell you, I'm just gonna respectfully disagree with that email. And I think that they are the perfect example of, like, people in minor position positions exercising power in a way that is often, like, disadvantageous for other people. We. We have this, like, TSA agent energy around home plate umpires with this stuff sometime where, as Bauman noted, they were like, no, until you answer my riddles. Three, you will not take your base even though, like, that pitch was, like, four inches above the freaking strike zone. So all of that to say. And, and the zone. You know what, Ben? I'm gonna say it. It wasn't a great zone. You know, there were several points. There were several points late in the game. It is late in the game. Hey, buddy, we are all trying to go home. I understand that, but you could, like, see Lucas doing this, like, math of, like, I cannot get thrown out of this game. I am not allowed to get thrown out of this game because we have no one left. We are gonna have to put a. A starting pitcher in the outfield if I get thrown out of this game. But, sir, that was not a strike. And the contortions that that man's face had to go through to not get thrown out. I'm sure he was biting the inside of his cheek. You know, just be like, don't use any magic words.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I did sort of respect that the zone did not inflate into some moon sized thing in the 18th. Like, there were some. Some close calls that could have been strikes and weren't. And I sort of respect it. It's like, oh, yeah, everyone wants to go to sleep, but he's. He's not totally hastening that along. Yeah, look, that was a bad call.

[Meg Rowley]

It was a bad call.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You know, he made the sound, but he maybe made the gesture late. And, and I thought that Bechette perhaps should have been a bit more careful and more vigilant. You know, he was just aimlessly wondering. And I get why. And, and I understand the confusion, but, you know, don't let your guard down in that moment until you're absolutely sure. So I, I think some fault falls on him. Even though that secondary mistake flowed from the first mistake which Wegner made. If you go by the ump scorecards, he didn't have a bad game on the whole. It was better than average. Now he's a World Series umpire. He should be considerably better than average. And, you know, I make some allowances for the fact that seeing 600 pitches back there, you know, calling almost 300 taken pitches, there's a fatigue factor for umpires as well. Well, so I, I didn't think it was the worst, but I'm, I'm with you on that particular call. And, and that one screw up spiraled into multiple screw ups, which did potentially have a significant impact on the game.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, that is a problem. And then, like, you know, the inning concludes. The Blue Jays do not score. And like, as we are going to commercial, Joe Davis is like, the Blue Jays somehow don't score. And it's like, hey, Joe, come on, man. Like, you guys can talk. I, I think that you can make the argument like, hey, Bo. It's just so consequential. You can't be caught sleeping there. The first base coach has to be like, removing his lungs, trying to scream loud enough to say, get back to the bag. Get back to the bag. Get back to the bag. There are procedural air like, issues there, certainly, but, like, the original sin of that moment comes with a late call and a late, bad call. And you can say that on tv. You know, you can just say it on tv. You, you felt free to correctly criticize Dan Wilson about not bringing on Andres Munoz in that game. You can just say, I don't know, man. And they, they went there a little bit. But I'm like, Joe, we, we do know how this happened. It's not a mystery. We didn't.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Somehow, the Blue Jays didn't score. Somehow Palpatine returned. Yes, we can explain some of these things, but I'm gonna take. Well, this is related to ones that we've talked about, but I wanna give the Blue Jays some credit too. The fact that these two teams combined to post Ten and a half consecutive scoreless innings after Ohtani's second home run. Yeah, and this is again, kind of that same. Well, is it credit to the pitchers or is it debit to the hitters? And it's probably a bit of both. But. But the fact that these bullpens were both so maligned and justifiably so, and then they were both just zero after zero after zero. And yes, we celebrated Klein and then all the Dodgers who contributed to that, but let's not sleep on Eric Lauer, too, when we're talking about starters pitching in relief. And that guy went what, four and two thirds?

[Meg Rowley]

That's correct.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And was just completely unfazed by the situation. Like, did not appear to be. He just sweating at all. Just did not, you know, outwardly at least, was just basically looked calm and collected and cool. And he pitched like that, too. I mean, he was just. He was great. So him and. And the other Blue Jays who contributed to that, it was mostly Lauer, I guess, during that span, more than anyone else. But they did it, like, for the first going into the series, it was all about like, who's going to get the starters out early, who's going to get into the bullpens. And that proved more or less true in game one, where the Blue Jays really sort of exploded once they got Snell out of the game. Not that Snell was great either. He kind of regressed to the old frustrating Snell and, you know, left the bullpen in a jam. But then they got tattooed, too. And then in game two was like, well, yeah, let's just not use the bullpen at all. And Yamamoto will just not need a reliever. And that's the way to win. And in this game, there was no avoiding the bullpens, There was no avoiding relievers. You need to use all of them. Both teams emptied their bullpens and those pitchers, a lot of them emptied their arms of all they had. 19 pitchers used combined, a postseason record, and just so many of those guys stepped up. So, yeah, while we're celebrating, the Dodgers just wanted to extend the courtesy to the Blue Jays as well, even though, you know, Brendan Little ends up giving up another big home run. And. And that's the end of things. Like, they. They kept this going a lot longer than anyone have expected. These two teams with these two bullpens to keep these two offenses scoreless.

[Meg Rowley]

Well, and, you know, to continue on with that. And then I'll have. I have a positive Blue Jays related one, too, because, you know, I think there's stuff to praise here, you know, Fischer. For his part, Fischer had pitched both of the. Of the games in Toronto. And his first couple of pitches in last night's game, he looked hooked. He looked so tired. His mechanics were all out of whack. He could not find the strike zone. And he gutted through that inning, right? He gets K to strike out, he gets Pais to line out. Of course he intentionally walks Shohei. That is apparently, you know, part of Canada's foreign policy or something, you know. And then Beth singles and you're like, okay, we gotta. We gotta really do something here. And he gets Freddie to fly out, he gets Will Smith to strike out. Like there were. There were some really. There were some guys who really had to bear down last night and find something in themselves. And I know that that sounds like hokum or like a soft thing to say, you know, unquantifiable, but like, the effort was apparent on the field and I think that that was really admirable. And the other thing that I will just highlight is like, you know, in a game that was really sloppy, right? It was a slop ass game. Dalton Verscher really knows how to play center field, man.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

Dalton Varshow really knows how to play a center field. And he saved this. Like, this game went as deep as it did in part because of Dalton Vershow and some of the plays that he was making, getting on his horse, running a really good route out there. And so, you know, that's the kind of thing that kind of gets lost in much the same way that, like, no one's going to remember that Dave Roberts intentionally walked Andres Jimenez because we don't have to live in a reality where that fever dream mattered because they just ended up winning the game. And on the flip side of that, sometimes really good defensive efforts get lost on the part of the losing team. But he had some really fine plays late in the game and. And he is really good out there, man. He's really good.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Do you. Okay, do you want to make that a pick then? Because I could make a related. Okay.

[Meg Rowley]

I just wanted to highlight Fisher in particular because he looked. It was. It looked like it was gonna end right there with him. And then he was able to kind of bear down and get down when he needed to, even though it wasn't like a classically beautiful pitching performance. Like there was loud contact and. And the whole bit, but like he.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, very little about this game was classically beautiful. It was. It was broken, it was messy, and sometimes A slop.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. Sometimes a slap ass game is a lot of fun. Right. Like, it's ridiculous and it is contributing to the part of the game where you're like, I would like to die because I am simply so tired. But it is fun. Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. By the way, Roberts evidently said that if Yamamoto hadn't stepped up and said he could pitch the 19th, it would have been Miguel Rojas. So that's what we were spared, and I'm grateful for that.

[Meg Rowley]

Let us, you know, leave an offering at the, you know, at the altar of Freddie Freeman, because the discourse that we would have gotten would have been.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh yeah, it would have been nuclear cataclysmic.

[Meg Rowley]

That would have, that would, that would have been the true noble of baseball discourse. And I, I would have, on some level, like, I would have understood the logic, but it would have been an indefensible decision. It would have been, it would have been the kind of thing where I don't like, I assume Rob Manford was in the building for this. Right. I'm sure that the commissioner is at every World Series game. I would have needed Rob to run downstairs.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The best interest. You cannot.

[Meg Rowley]

You are simply disallowed from that. I don't care how many freaking starters you have to burn through to, to get to the end of this game. You simply cannot put a position player on the mound in a tie game. If it's a blowout. It's. It's still not good. It's not a good look. But like, okay, fine, you can understand the instinct, but in a tie game, absolutely not. Indefensible decision.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, it would have been unforgivable. I would have put Otani in before, before doing that. Or yeah, Manfred could have just unilaterally imposed the Zombie Runner in the middle of a World Series game to avoid that fate. I guess if I had to choose, that's a real rock and a hard place decision to lose an epic World Series game with a position player pitcher on the mound or to implement the Zombie Runner. Oof. Yeah, I don't want to have to choose between those two options. And by the way, I'm with you. You said this at the start, but yeah, I don't see this as an argument for. See, we should have the Zombie Runner all the time. I do see this as an argument. Argument for we should absolutely preserve the postseason as a Zombie Runner free area. Right. This should be like the nature reserve where we get to enjoy unspoiled wilderness with no Zombie Runner. Because if you get an 18 inning game in the World Series. That is a whole different proposition than an 18 inning game that has way lower stakes during the regular season. But this, I live for this. But yes, it's disruptive if it happens often. Not that it ever happened often, but yeah, you know, you talked about this during the Mariner series or, or you, you posted it, at least that there's a real ebb and flow to your emotions between the top half of an inning and the bottom half of your inning, or vice versa. If you're, if you're directly rooting in this. Because when your team is up at the plate, things can't really get worse. I mean, they can get worse and that, you know, you can lose outs and not score, but you can't fall further behind or lose your lead. Right. And so it just seems so much safer. And as soon as it flips over to the other half of the inning where their guys get to hit. Oh, it's, I, I called it a, like a sine wave of, of anxiety because it just intensifies and then it diminishes and it's just like, you know, your, your heart rate rises and falls in proximity to potential disaster. And once it gets to extra innings, even if you don't have a direct rooting interest, you feel a lot of that. So, you know, I'm not a Dodgers fan or, or a Blue Jays fan, but once it gets to extra innings, and it's essentially sudden death once you get to the bottom half of the inning, oh, my anxiety level spikes so much relative to the top half of the thing where, you know, at least one swing can't end it, but one swing can when it's the bottom half. And that's, you know, credit to the many, many pitchers who avoided that fate for a long time. Time. Okay, so I'm gonna take something.

[Meg Rowley]

Have we done. How many pics have we made?

[Ben Lindbergh]

This is my sixth. I think maybe we can do like a little. We can't round.

[Meg Rowley]

We can't do nine.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I've got a few. I want to just get off.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, okay.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But, but, but I will take related to Varsho. So there were a number of, of cases in the late innings, like 13th on where we all got jump scared by deep fly balls.

[Meg Rowley]

Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

In some cases it was a testament to Varsho just being there. You know, there wasn't really a home run robbery per se, but he made some, some good plays. But it was also just the ballpark barely containing certain. So it was like Will Smith led off the 14th with a ball to the wall. And, you know, he seemed to think, and everyone seemed to think that he.

[Meg Rowley]

Sure did think that that was gone.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, he started to bat flip, it looked like, and some people leaped over the top railing and, you know, and I'm thinking. And it. It just barely stays in. And then Max Muny, right after that, he hit a really loud foul that had home run distance, but he was just too quick. But right off the bat, for an instant, it looked like, oh, maybe, maybe he did it again. And then in the 16th, Teoscar, who had homered earlier in the game, he threatened to do it again. He looked like he had gotten a hold of one. And then before Freeman actually hit his walk off, he had two false alarms because there was one in the 13th where he really gave one a ride. And then there was the one in the 15th that off the bat looked like it might split the gap. And there was a runner on first with two outs, I think. And that. That could have been that. And that was the one where Varsho made a really nice play and made it look easier than I think it was. But all of those bad balls that I just listed were all triple digit exit speeds. And it got to the point where I'm thinking, like, all right, you know, the temperature's down, marine layer, whatever it is, the ball is not carrying. And so when Freeman actually hit the walk off, I was less excited than I would have been otherwise, because that was dang. Yeah, it was like, boy, who cried homer? By that point, I've already seen Freeman put a charge into a couple, and those balls just didn't go where I thought they were going to go. And then off the bat in. In the 18th, I was. Was more tentative than I would have been otherwise because I'd been fooled a bunch of times, or at least it had my heart leap into my throat. And I was like, you know what? I'll. I'll wait and watch this for a second before I take anything for granted. So, yeah, all of those almost looked like it was over. That, I think, really added to this because it just kept reinforcing. Oh, this could end at any second. And yet somehow we keep being pulled back from the book. So that's a pick. Do you want to just, like, take Freddie Freeman's homer as a pick?

[Meg Rowley]

I mean, I guess we. I suppose that we should be silly.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Not to take the guy who hit the walk off. And as you said, he. He's spared us from that possible fate of Miguel Rojas pitching in the 19th inning. So that alone you know, it's, I don't know if it's as big a homer or bigger or how you even compare with the, the World Series game. One grand slam last year and that one was kind of colored by Aaron Boon and Nestor Cortez and what was he thinking and all the rest. But another huge homer and now he's the, the first guy to have multiple walk off homers in World Series.

[Meg Rowley]

I find the grand slam more impressive even though I think that the pitching like the choice of pitcher there was more confounding just because Freeman was hobbled last year like he.

[Ben Lindbergh]

True.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, he could barely round the bases on a home run, you know, and you know, it just seemed like Cortez like was such an obviously bad decision there. So. So I don't know that they have a worse time doing it than other fan bases or the worst time. I haven't made that detail, the study of it. I will say that there are times when the crowd at Dodger Stadium does not know if it's a home run or not. And I think that part of it might be the late afternoon, early evening to night difference because I do think that that ballpark plays pretty differently over the course of a game in terms of how the literal atmosphere is impacting the flight distance of baseball. So there's a lot of like, ah. And then it's like, no, that was a. Yep, that was a comfortable fly out. So I often feel discombobulated when I'm watching games at Dodger Stadium in terms of whether or not something is a home run. Yeah, well, Will Smith sure did think that he got all of that one. He wasn't alone.

[Ben Lindbergh]

No, but, no, not at all. He had company, including me maybe. But okay, so that, that, that slid down the draft board. We took the 18th inning walk off in the seventh round. I guess like it was, it was going to get drafted somewhere. The order doesn't matter that much here. I also want to just take when Freeman was cut down at the point by Addison Barger.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, what a throw.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, what a throw. And you know, he was, he was out by a lot. I mean, you know, it was a comfortable margin. But yes, good, good tag. Great throw. Throw on a line. And we, we know he has a great arm. We've seen it. But that was the, the third fastest tracked postseason throw I saw in, you know, 98.5 miles per hour and perfectly accurate. And yeah, you know, Freddy's not the fastest. Neither of these teams is like speed demons. I mean really, the, the blue chase they, they do not have fast guys. The Dodgers, other than Ohtani, just do not have fast guys. That's, that's, that's an element that's kind of missing from the series. And when everyone talks about the Blue Jays kind of like being, I don't know, like old school or small ball or whatever, I think they're kind of just, it's the strikeout rate and the contact rate. Doing a lot of work there because they do hit for lots of power, too. And also, and it's the defense, I guess they do have the defense and we saw that here. But they don't run, you know, they don't steal bases. They just don't really have that element. And that would have made some of these plays even more exciting. But, but ultimately I, I guess it comes down to just what the margin is and you can have a slow runner and still it's a bang bang play. So, yeah, Barger I wanted to salute there with the pick. And I still have questions. I'm still somewhat mystified by Barger sleeping in Davis Schneider's hotel room. Like, it's one of these charming stories. I still have questions. It's just like that have not been satisfactorily addressed by any of the coverage of this. There's been extensive coverage because, you know, Barger hits the first pinch hit grand slam in World Series history in game one, and then it comes out lefty, right? Yeah. And then he slept on Davis Schneider's pullout couch the night understanding. Right, because they're staying in a hotel.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I mean, Schneider's girlfriend is, is staying there too.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And so the way that Schneider related this way was he was staying with Miles, Miles Straw. Then he stayed with me last night. Why is Barger couch surfing? First of all, why is my girlfriend is here and he was like, can I sleep in the bed with you guys? I, I, I read this in print, so I don't know if there was like a, there was a little bit.

[Meg Rowley]

Of like joking tone here.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Okay. All right. Hopefully. I mean, well, you know, I'm not judgmental. Whatever.

[Meg Rowley]

They want to get unleash the quotes on, on lefty baseball Twitter. The horn has been, yes, can I.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Sleep in the bed? So I was like, no, sleep on my couch. It's a pull out, a term which in itself is loaded in this context. It was squeaking all night. Oh boy. It was so funny to look over and see him sleeping there in the middle of the night. He's a head case, but he's Funny. I mean, maybe he's a head case line is explaining a lot of this.

[Meg Rowley]

Here stand it at all.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. And it's like a pull out in the same room so that he can see the. The pull out from the bed all night. And then of course, he hits the grand slam and he goes back for night two. And you know, that's just a baseball players being baseball players superstition thing. Right?

[Meg Rowley]

And yeah, you don't even. You don't even want to know who has or has not like, like change their underwear.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Exactly. Yeah. And so. And so Barger's back on the couch after that game and Schneider says, I thought he was going to have his own place, but he was like, can I sleep with you again? So I said, sure, might as well. And. And Schneider said about his girlfriend. She's cool with it. Plus, it's Barger. He doesn't really talk that much anyways. Again, does not fully explain anything. Schneider then went on to say, he's not staying with me in L. A. The Blue Jays pay for our hotel rooms. So he's not staying with me. And again, that is at the core of all of this.

[Meg Rowley]

Why wasn't right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Could they not pay for. Does he not have a place? Could they not get him a hotel room? Could he not get himself a hotel room? I mean, even if he's making major league minimum, you guys, does he just not like to sleep alone? Does he want company? I again understand.

[Meg Rowley]

I don't know more.

[Ben Lindbergh]

More questions that I have here. But one thing we know is that he has a great arm. He showed that off when he threw out for.

[Meg Rowley]

He does have a great arm. Here's. Here's the. Here's the other thing that I. I'm inviting these emails, okay? I'm inviting them. Who does Addison Barger look like? Who does he look like, Ben? He looks like somebody. He looks like a CW actor. He looks like an actor. I can't. I can't.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You already got your. Your Ernie Clement looks like Dominic Monahan and satisfied. And I knew a weight off your mind.

[Meg Rowley]

I. I had offered that comp and I had just lost it. And so I was so grateful to have it back. Anyway. I am simply. I am simply perplexed. I am bamboozled. I am ensorceled. I am unsure.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Okay, the inbox is open. All right. Any. So we've done seven each. Any others you just want to quickly mention?

[Meg Rowley]

Okay, quickly. I really liked how much more fun the broadcast got as time wore on and both Davis and Smoltz were just freaking exhausted.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Smoltz let his hair down.

[Meg Rowley]

Let his hair down.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Has any. But, you know.

[Meg Rowley]

Yes, way better. Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They were bantering about fruit plates and being starving and just. Yeah, they were getting a little loose. A little.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, they were getting a little loose. They were a little punchy. It was terrific. I was here for it. Relatedly, I love the notion of Sleepy Otani because apparently Ohani was very sleepy, which is hilarious because, like, he and his wife have a young baby at home, so presumably, like some amount of sleeplessness he's used to. Although maybe this is like over and above even that it led to this fantastic detail in Tom Riducci's piece. About the piece here I am quoting. Ohtani kept ducking into the clubhouse between at bats to make sure he was hydrated and to treat his fatigue. At one point, so haggard was Ohtani that he. He returned to the dugout wearing an alternate cap, one with a script D rather than the interlocking la. A coach whispered in his ear. Dude, you've got the wrong hat. Ohtani spun on his heel and returned to his locker to get the proper one. Fantastic.

[Ben Lindbergh]

For she's good, man. Like, he's. It always impresses me where he's doing double duty. He's. He's being the TV guy and the sideline reporter and the post game. You know, stick the mic in someone's face. Nice guy. But then he's also turning around and filing some, like, epic game story for Sports Illustrated that's just full of all this kind of rich detail. Yeah, he's excellent.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. So I loved. I loved Sleepy Ohtani. I loved the loose booth. Again, we've already mentioned the music cues in the whole broadcast were great. I have a rule proposal on the back of this game and I know that this is impossible to implement because what are they going to do? Interrogate everyone who's bought a ticket? I am tired of viral marketing behind home plate and World Series game. Enough. Enough already. At least Colonel Sanders had the decency to just sit quietly. The. The two jabronis advertising the AI Bear movie. Get. I'm going to do a swear and Shane, I want you to leave it in. I want you to leave this swearing and. And parents who are listening with their kids around. I'm going to give you five seconds to mute and I'll be quick about it, but I'm going to do a big swear and we're going to leave it in. Get the fuck out of here with that shit. Get the fuck out of here with this Viral marketing. I, I don't think I'm a purist about a lot of stuff with the sport. I bob and weave. I have been flow. I have opinions. But I understand it's an evolving game. No, this is not the place for that. We already have to watch Marlin's man be back there for like 18 innings on his stupid phone the whole time. Just like, let. Let it wash over you, man. Let it wash over you. Enjoy the game. Also, why are you moving around seats so much? You're moving around seats all the time. You ran a traffic cone. You're the most obvious seat mover I've ever seen. What are you doing? What are you doing? Sit in your seat. Sit in your same seat and, and watch the game.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Game.

[Meg Rowley]

Like I, I sound like a 95 year old, but you know what? I'm right about this. He's sitting there, he's fidgeting with his phone. He's. He's on his phone. He's clearly name searching. None of the mentions can be positive. So what's that about? Is this like a kink? Like, I don't understand. So he's doing that and then he's like trying to take video of the whole game and the potential walk off moment. I'm gonna. What are you gonna do with that? What are you gonna do with that video nothing thing? You're gonna do nothing with it. You have all this resource to sit in those seats and you're. You're blowing it, man. You're blowing it. So enough. Enough already with you.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Too many characters behind tone plate, self aggrandizing characters. If you're organically a character, that's okay, sure.

[Meg Rowley]

But that's fine.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Trying to make yourself the center of attention.

[Meg Rowley]

Don't make yourself the center of attention. And also, everybody, guess what? If you see something weird behind home plate during a playoff game and you're like, why is that back there? It's viral marketing, okay? So don't, don't think back to one of the better Treehouse supporters and just don't look. Just don't look, okay? And then all of the giant mascot robot guys will cease to work. Just don't look.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Okay? All right. The last things I wanted to take, I guess for my eighth and ninth picks, then I want to take just Alejandro. Kirk, I think deserves some shine here. Even though he was gone by the end of the game, he did hit a three run homer. That was pretty important, right? So I think, you know, that deserves to be noted here. In a game with not that much scoring. And also he had that really pretty play to throw out Ohtani, which. I mean, the transfer was beautiful. It was right on the money and.

[Meg Rowley]

Right on the money.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. You know, Ohtani kind of came off the bat and everything, but. But Kirk put it right where it had to be so on. On both sides of the ball, right.

[Meg Rowley]

Where it needed to be for the Tank tag.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And he's not like, as scary as Vlad up there, but you. You don't want to see Kirk coming up. He's just. It's a. It's a great plate appearance from him pretty much every time. He's just. He's going to foul off a bunch of pitches. He's going to be a pest. But then he can also do whatever else you want. He can also just put a charge into one. He can take a walk. He can. He can do whatever. And obviously behind the plate, he's fantastic, too. So this has been just kind of a Alejandro Kirk appreciation month, I think, more widely, even though it. It has been all season in Toronto. And then I also want to credit because I said there were kind of like this game went on so long and there were so many subplots that you did have this redemption arc work of Teosco Hernandez and Tommy Edmond, both of whom had made costly misplace in the field. Yeah. And we talked about Te. Oscar's misplays in the field and on the bases. And then, you know, Edmund had the error that set up the Kirk homer and. But then he had a couple great throws and the one where they teamed up on the relay to throw out Davis, Schneider at home plate to preserve the tie in the 10th. You know, any. Any situation like that, any runner who's thrown out at home plate in extra innings to preserve a tie, and Schneider was out by a mile. Really. You know, it was. It was. I mean, you're thinking. Cause like, he had. Am I right in thinking that he had pinch run for France, I think, but like, Schneider's not fast either. You know, like, they just. Just don't have that fast guy who is available. And so he looked like someone who should have been pinch run four probably as he was running around there. But, you know, it was a good enough throw and. And Smith got the tag down and. And so, yeah, to see Hernandez and. And Edmund redeem themselves defensively and team up on a pretty important play, that was. That was big.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, Schneider came in to pinch run for France. IKF came in for. For Bichette. Heinemann came in for Kirk Straw Came.

[Ben Lindbergh]

In for Barger Blue J's just used everyone. I see like a slightest hint when he has his hat on. You're not gonna like this, but I see like a. Just a little faint Seth MacFarlane in. In Addison Barger's face. But I don't know if that's who you're. You're going for here, right? Yeah, there might be. I'm sure there's a better comp. We'll find it or someone will supply.

[Meg Rowley]

It looking than Seth. He has sharper features than Seth McFarland is maybe the way that I would distinguish them apart from anything else. Better flow too. Like wow.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh yeah. Yeah. That's why I said with the head on important.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah. But I think that their faces are different. He. It's someone. And I'm. I'm so furious, Ben. I'm so furious.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I can't think of someone will help. It'll come to you. Okay. Well, just an absolutely fantastic game. Just, you know, 65. I don't know that we ever mentioned the final score. The Dodgers go up 2:1. And this game went on so long that YouTube TV, which is what I was watching it on, actually kicked me out because. And I'm. I'm not the only one who had this experience. I thought I saw other people mentioning this on social media, but like, I guess it was maybe after six hours or so.

[Meg Rowley]

I got a weird ad break at 9pm my time. But that was someone in. In Phoenix goofing something. I don't think that that was.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I got a Are you still watching Message that came up and then it like kicked me out. I had to back out and then manually look up Fox and. And it was, you know, it's. It said it was the. The local news at that point because they hadn't planned. And so I missed some. Some crucial pitches there. But. But yeah, I guess maybe they allotted six hours or something for this because why would it go longer than that? And it just. It. It did. It went on so long and that was kind of the thrust of my pieces that like, you know, the powers that be have tried to make baseball behave. You know, they've tried to stuff it into a. A box mostly for the better, at least in some ways. You know, I'm pro pitch clock, but they try to tamp down the time between pitches. They try to tamp down the time between batters, the time between innings. And of course there's the zombie runner during the regular season to make sure that the extra innings aren't too extra. Etc and they've done this to make the sport more predictable and more presentable and more marketable and, you know, more profitable and more popular. And on the whole, I'm. I'm on board with many of those things, at least, but I love when it just breaks all the rules and baseball, it's just completely incorrigible. And all these gremlins emerge and say, you can speed up the time between these events, right. But you still can't control how many of these events there are. Are. There could still theoretically be an infinite number of pitches and plate appearances and innings. And we know it's never actually infinite, but in the postseason at least, there is more realistic likelihood of getting one of these games. And, you know, I understand that many people probably were not able to stay up to see the end of this game, and that's. That's a bummer, too. So I. I have a job where. Where it's literally my job to stay up to watch the game, as do you. And so, you know, that's. That's not the case for most people who probably would prefer for business to be concluded at a reasonable hour so that they could not be dead the next day and go to work and do whatever they need to do. But for the sickos, those who, who can and. And will be there until the last pitch, this will stay with us forever. This will be an absolute classic and a game that we had to devote an entire episode to. And we did more than scratch the surface here, but I'm sure that we. We left plenty undrafted and unsung because there was just so much to sing about.

[Meg Rowley]

Yep.

[Ben Lindbergh]

All right. Meant to mention, by the way, I feel fortunate that we were not doing one of our Patreon livestreams during game three. Much as I appreciate our Patreon supporters, much as we enjoy spending time with them in that way, seven hours or so might be pushing it for us and friends them. It's also hard to pay as close attention when we're livestreaming, which would have made it difficult to do the writing and editing and drafting that we needed to do anyway. We lucked out there a few other things that we didn't draft, but I wanted to mention there were 37 men left on base in that game. The teams combined to go 4 for 26 with runners in scoring position. That's a lot. That's one reason why the game lasted as long as it did. Roki Sasaki pitched to Miles Strah, which had an unremarkable outcome, but it was cool and quirky that they faced each other given that Miles Straw is on the Blue Jays due to their pursuit of Sasaki. Also, Brad Paisley sang the national anthem at game three in 2025 and game three in 2018. So if you want a double header length World Series game, you know you gotta call Brad Paisley to perform before it. Also during the Game three broadcast, which we mentioned was an improvement, Smoltz was going on and on about how in extra innings, particularly in the postseason, perhaps you get lots of pop ups and fly balls because everyone's trying to elevate and be a hero and swing for the fences. And I guess it's true that players are probably trying to do that to some extent. I think Freddy Freeman even said as much in his post game comments, but as to whether that actually produces more balls in the air doesn't appear to. If we look at Postseason history since 2008, the pitch tracking era and the era that I can easily search on baseball savant the percentage of batted balls that were fly balls or pop ups in the postseason during the first nine innings 33.5% and in extra innings 33.2%. So no difference really. And during the regular season over the same span during the first nine innings 32.3%, during extra innings 31.2%. So the percentages are actually slightly lower in extras. Now of course, if you wanted to be rigorous about it, you'd compare the same hitters during regulation and in extra innings you'd account for the pitchers. Maybe if you made those adjustments you'd see something. But as to whether there are more balls in the air and extras, no. Doesn't seem so now in Game 4, no Springer, no problem for Toronto. As the game was starting, my daughter Sloane, who made a cameo on our second Patreon livestream, said, is Shohei a real person? Of course we assured her that he is, but that is a question a lot of people have been asking themselves lately. And results wise, on Tuesday he looked a little more like a real person. He pitched well, but wasn't overpowering. Two of the four runs that were charged to him came from runners. He be quite tweaked to Anthony Banda. In the seventh, Banda allowed both of them to score and then Dave Roberts went to Blake Trinen yet again. Granted, he had very few if any right handed relievers available, but nonetheless I'd give up the platoon advantage to have a superior pitcher at this point. And Trinen let in a couple more runs because of course he did. Jack Dreyer then pitched two scoreless but maybe it didn't matter so much that the Blue Jays scored six instead of four because the Dodgers ultimately scored only two. 2. The Jays did pitch to Ohtani. They walked him one time, not intentionally pitched him carefully, but after that he went 03. So he did seem to be feeling a little fatigue. He wasn't throwing quite as hard as usual. Vlad tagged him for a two run shot though given the circumstances, he pitched pretty well. But yes, Sloan, he is human. He is a real person and the Blue Jays are a real team that is very much in this series and has now assured that it will return to Toronto. There will in fact be World Series Baseball played on Hollow. So credit to Toronto. Credit to Shane Bieber, who pitched pretty well in his first World Series start. Game four was far from Game three. For one thing, it was half as long. We will not be doing an episode length draft devoted to Game four, but we will discuss it more on our next episode. In the meantime, you can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com effectivelywild and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast go and help us stay ad free and and get yourself access to some perks, as have the following five Colin Metcalfe, Aaron Kanter, Austin Hall, Steven Teitelbaum and Hayden Sovereign. Thanks to all of you, Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only, monthly bonus episodes, one of which we will be recording and releasing soon. Prioritized email answers, playoff live streams, potential podcast appearances, personalized messages, discounts on merch and ad, free family memberships, and so much more. Check out all the offerings at patreon.com effectivelywild. If you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcastanographs.com youm can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook [e-mail] group effectivelywild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at R Effectivelywild. You can check the show notes at Fan Graphs or in the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats recited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance and we will be back with another episode soon. Romantic, pedantic and hypothetical, Semantic and frantic. Real or theoretical. They give you the stats and they give you the news It's a baseball podcast. You should choose. Effectively Wild is here for you about all the weird stuff that players do. Authentically strange and objectively styled. Let's play ball. It's effectively wild. It's effectively wild. It's effectively wild.