Effectively Wild Episode 2414: You Can Go Home Again

Summary

Effectively Wild Episode 2414: You Can Go Home Again
December 16, 2025 | Hosts: Ben Lindbergh & Meg Rowley

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Ben and Meg unpack a smattering of recent MLB offseason transactions. They analyze the Mets’ signing of Jorge Polanco as a Pete Alonso replacement, notable bullpen moves by contenders, and several comeback stories in both baseball and sports at large. The hosts also discuss MLB's new regulation on minor league tech and data, and the ever-growing infiltration of baseball in pop culture—including a deep-dive into the accuracy of baseball depictions in the new "Knives Out" movie. The tone is classic Effectively Wild: witty, analytical, and rooted in a deep love for both baseball minutiae and wider sports culture.

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Major Discussion Points

1. How Baseball Never Really Has an “Offseason” (00:35–01:55)

• Ben and Meg commiserate over the year-round demands of baseball media work, with Meg noting:

  “If you do a year-round podcast and edit a year-round website... it’s even less of an offseason.” (01:13)

2. Mets Sign Jorge Polanco as a (Sort-Of) Pete Alonso Replacement (01:55–09:22)

• Polanco’s Fit:
  • Polanco, a former Mariner, steps in for Alonso at first base—a spot he’s played professionally only once.

  “It’s a guy who has played first base for one professional pitch as an injury replacement. So he’s going to have to pick up the position.” (02:59)

• Comparing Bats:
  • Polanco’s ceiling statistically aligns with an average Alonso season, but with more risk and less upside.
  • Pay reflects expectations: 2 years, $40M (Polanco) vs. the much larger Alonso deal (04:14).
• Defense and Upside:
  • The hosts argue first base isn’t as “plug-and-play” as often assumed and discuss Polanco’s defensive limitations.
  • Ben: “Many a baseball player has learned as he has tumbled down the defensive spectrum... If there had ever been a time when I had said anything negative about Jorge Polanco... it would have been watching him try to man second base.” (04:32)
• Mets’ Offseason Status:
  “My instinct is still to render unto the Mets an incomplete,” says Ben (03:40), with Meg noting the fan perspective:

  “If you’re a Mets fan, you might think, well, we cheaped out a little or we went a little cheaper for slightly worse replacements... But they might yet do that [sign a premier free agent].” (08:06)

Notable Quote

“There’s a lot of offseason to go, more moves to be made. So still incomplete, but more complete in that we now know who is slotted in to replace Pete at first base... a guy who has played first base for one professional pitch.”
— Meg Rowley (02:31)

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3. Josh Bell to the Twins: Value and Vibes (10:19–12:01)

• Meg calls Bell “more or less a replacement level player” for some years, but at one year, $5.5M, the risk is minimal.
• Ben speculates:

  “A suspicion that I have now about Josh Bell is that he must be like the best hang because he keeps getting work.” (11:12)

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4. Reinventing Bullpens: Blue Jays & Dodgers Additions (12:01–17:14)

• Blue Jays Sign Tyler Rogers:
  • Both Toronto and LA address their postseason bullpen woes.
  • Ben praises the Jays’ ambition:

    “I just appreciate the obvious ambition being demonstrated by Toronto and by the Dodgers too... Go, go, go get them. I like that.” (14:29)

  • Discussion on the value of arm slot diversity (“bullpen octopus”).
• Dodgers Assembly:
  • LA projects to again have the best bullpen, but hosts caution projections aren’t guarantees.
• Debates the pronunciation “submariner” vs “submariner” for submarine pitchers—classic EW tangent (17:37–18:20).

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5. AL East Heating Up: Yankees, Red Sox, and Michael King Rumors (19:10–20:04)

• AL East teams seen as “stocking up”; Yankees are “the sleeping giant of the offseason.”
• Scene-setting for possible future “Stat Blast” segment on divisional talent influx.

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6. The “Go Home Again” Move: Merrill Kelly Returns to the Diamondbacks (20:04–32:37)

• Kelly returns to Arizona after a short stint with Texas.

  “He likes being there and they like having him... It’s sort of satisfying, but it doesn’t happen all that often.” (20:04, 23:14)

• Ben and Meg riff on the rarity—and emotional dynamics—of players being traded midseason then re-signing with their old club, citing Ricky Henderson and others.
• Notable research and quotes from Meg’s past reporting:

  “It takes so much emotional energy to leave a long-term team relationship, and it’s worse when you didn’t initiate it.” (Doug Glanville, 30:27)

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7. Kenley Jansen to Tigers: Closer Role & Hall of Fame Credentials (32:37–38:21)

• Jansen, age 38, joins a Tigers pen with an uncertain hierarchy, but strong career productivity.
• Meg reviews his HOF case:

  “He is sandwiched between Trevor Hoffman and Billy Wagner... If you’re a relievers-deserve-to-be-in-the-Hall pursuit, I don’t know how you could keep Kenley out.” (34:05)

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8. Phillies Sign Adolis García; Dispiriting or Savvy? (39:26–44:14)

• García gets $10M from Philly after a non-tender by Texas.
• Ben questions the fit:

  “It seems like a lot of money to have tied up in that position that isn’t anticipated to be very productive... Why?” (40:31, 42:21)

• Discussion compares him to other options (e.g., bringing back Harrison Bader for vibes).

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9. Royals and Brewers Swap: Isaac Collins, Nick Mears for Angel Zerpa (44:20–48:50)

• The Royals attempt to move past having the league’s worst outfield, acquiring Collins (a late-blooming rookie and 2025 ROY 4th-place finisher).

  “Even if he’s kind of close, I guess it’s an upgrade. It can’t get much worse.” (45:32)

• Ben notes: “I voted for Collins on my rookie of the year ballot. This could be like kind of respectable. It could be. And it was so bad.” (45:45)

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10. MLB Regulates Minor League Data & Tech: Parity or Anti-Competitive? (49:09–63:50)

• MLB will standardize tech/data in the minors, limiting clubs’ choice of vendors/providers to “level the playing field”—or, more cynically, cut owner costs.
• Hosts react skeptically:
  • Ben calls it “anti-competitive behavior” and “cheap,” arguing it stifles innovation and mostly helps clubs like the Rockies (53:02–57:34).
  • Meg:

    “It’s like with Moneyball... started as a way to save money, [but] then it gets co-opted by the rich teams too.” (57:34–59:25)

  • Discussion touches on impacts for small-market vs. big-market teams, and the potential for further owner fractures in future CBA negotiations.

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11. Pop Culture Segment: Baseball in “Knives Out – Wake Up Dead Man” (64:56–74:52)

• Listener emails and Meg’s analysis praise the accuracy of Cubs/D-backs games depicted in the new movie.
• Meg:

  “There’s a lot of baseball in Wake Up Dead Man... it’s fine, it’s done well. I have no notes, almost.” (67:13)

• Extended email from listener Stephen details the in-movie baseball timeline and technical details (91:17).

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12. Comeback Stories: MLB’s Philip Rivers? (75:29–91:14)

• Inspired by NFL QB Philip Rivers' return, Meg and Ben muse on possible baseball parallels—who could return from retirement and create a buzz?
• Equivalents: Cole Hamels, Felix Hernandez, Buster Posey, Robinson Cano, Albert Pujols, Ichiro, Zach Greinke, etc.
• Meg:

  “If Buster Posey... says ‘I’ll strap on the gear again,’... that would be a good one.” (84:52)

• Ben:

  “It would just be the most fun story... I’m envisioning him, like, mid-game... up in the suite, starts to loosen his tie...” (86:16)

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Additional Noteworthy Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[Toronto is] assembling...a bullpen octopus coming at you from every angle.” — Meg (16:47)
• Pronunciation debate: “Submariner” vs. “submariner” for submarine-style pitchers (17:37–18:26)
• On needing diversity in arm slots: “It’s fun. And even if it doesn’t help, it is fun.” — Meg (17:13)
• Meg’s investigative reporting on midseason trade/reunion cases, quoting GMs and players' sentiments about the emotional challenges (24:46–30:57)
• Ben on owner philosophy:

  “They want to have all profit, no expense. That’s not how any of this works...some of you are barely capitalists.” (63:50)

• Pop culture nods:
  • House of Dynamite’s random Lindor reference and the ongoing tradition of baseball “just appearing” in non-baseball films (72:33–75:19)
  • Joseph Gordon-Levitt’s cameo as a baseball announcer in “Wake Up Dead Man” (91:17)
• Closing note on Jamie Moyer, Bartolo Colon, and the “baseball octogenarian” lane for comebacks (90:06)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:55 – Mets’ Alonso replacement; Jorge Polanco fit
• 10:19 – Josh Bell to Twins
• 12:01 – Blue Jays improve bullpen
• 17:37 – Submariner debate
• 19:10 – AL East rumors & moves
• 20:04 – Merrill Kelly returns to D-backs
• 32:37 – Kenley Jansen to Tigers
• 39:26 – Adolis García signs with Phillies
• 44:20 – Royals and Brewers trade
• 49:09 – MLB minor league tech/data regulations
• 64:56 – Pop culture: baseball in Knives Out
• 75:29 – Comeback stories: MLB’s own Philip Rivers?

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Conclusion

The episode is a blend of insightful offseason analysis, appreciation for baseball’s emotional and weird corners, and the kind of humor and pop culture awareness fans expect from Meg and Ben. Whether unpacking the “incomplete” offseasons of various clubs, opining on the hidden impact of analytics budgets, or geeking out over fictional Cubs broadcasts, the hosts keep it Effectively Wild—asking not just what happened in baseball, but why and how it feels.

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For more, and listener Stephen’s in-depth breakdown of “Knives Out” baseball accuracy, tune in from 91:17.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Meg Relly]

I just a fan who wants Nothing less than effectively wild oh wild oh wild oh wild Nothing less than effectively wild.

[Ben Limburg]

Hello and welcome to episode 2414 of Effectively Wild, a FanGraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Relly of fangraphs and I'm joined by Ben Limburg of the Ringer. Ben, how are you?

[Meg Relly]

Not bad. How are you?

[Ben Limburg]

I am tired, but I am otherwise.

[Meg Relly]

Well, you just had a whole weekend to recover. Was not restful.

[Ben Limburg]

I mean, it was full of Diamondbacks, but otherwise restful. You know, it's just like there's a lot of travel this time of year. We got stuff to do. My mom said to me on the phone the other week, she's like, you're not like a teacher. You don't have. You're not a seasonal employee. And I was like, only been doing this job for almost 10 years. But yeah, mom, that's right. That is correct.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, I get that comment fairly often from friends, family. I got it even when I was covering baseball exclusively, which I understood a bit more because if you don't know that much about baseball, sure, think okay, off season, sure, you're off then if you're a baseball person. But of course that is not the case if you do a year round podcast and you edit a year round website, essentially. But. And then also as I do other things but baseball, it's even less of an off season. But yeah, I'm pretty sure close family members have made similar remarks to me and I have realized how closely they actually pay attention to my career.

[Ben Limburg]

Right. Yeah. And it's like, you know, it's fine. But also, I'm sorry, there's a news component sometimes, mom. So anyway, here we are.

[Meg Relly]

Well, we will talk a bit about the Diamondbacks today, I imagine because they made a move or two. We have a smattering of transactions to talk about. Nothing quite as momentous as the Peter Alonso signing from last week or some of the big winter meetings moves, but some after effects of the winter meetings, some ripples and we can discuss that and then a bit of other banter that we will get to. So, yeah, I guess maybe we could start with the most directly related to Pete Alonso move, which was the Mets signing Jorge Polanco, former Mariner player who.

[Ben Limburg]

Best baseball player I've ever seen.

[Meg Relly]

Yes. As I recall, player, you have never said anything negative about not even one thing. Yeah, I didn't really see this coming. Polanco as more or less direct replacement, at least on paper for Alonso it's kind of an interesting casting, but we talked last time about the Mets moves and departures and we said incomplete. There's a lot of off season to go, more moves to be made. So still incomplete, but more complete in that we now know who is evidently slotted in to replace Pete at first base. And it's a guy who has played first base for one professional pitch as an injury replacement. So he's going to have to pick up the position, but I don't doubt that he can.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, it's not incredibly hard or anything like that. Do you think that first basemen are like, hey, so we know, you know, we're realistic about where we stand relative to say a center fielder or a shortstop, but you guys are a little loosey goosey with assuming just anybody can do it over here.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, that's a good article idea if it hasn't already been done. Just pulling first basement about what they think of that Moneyball meme.

[Ben Limburg]

So like you said, my instinct is still to kind of render unto the Mets an incomplete. I like the, the fit of the bat fine. You know, I think that the top end of Jorge Polanco's production is like sort of a baseline expectation Pete Alonso season. So in that respect I think there's more downside potential relative to Pet Pete.

[Meg Relly]

132 career high WRC plus in 2025 for Polanco, which is Pete Alonso's career WRC plus.

[Ben Limburg]

Bang on, bang on for Pete. So you know, I think that there is an understanding that the, the likelihood of him exactly matching Alonzo's production on his own is low. But that's reflected in the fact that he's making $40 million over two years and Pete Alonzo is making $155 million. Right. So not over two years. That would be a large contract, probably a record by a considerable margin. I think that Polanco, especially when he's fully healthy, is a perfectly capable bat and by all accounts like a steady Eddy, good clubhouse presence. And here I am defending the honor of first baseman. But it is a position that many a baseball player has learned as he has tumbled down the defensive spectrum, which has certainly happened to Polanco. If there had ever been a time when I had said anything negative about Jorge Polanco, which, remember the record clearly shows I have never done it would have been watching him try to man second base. But the thing about the Mets is that they don't need him to do that. They have a Marcus Semian for that purpose now. So I think that defensively, a first base with I would imagine some DH in there is a fine fit, assuming he can take to the position. And I do think that for all the luster attached to Alonso's bat and sort of the well deserved regard in which it's held like he is a bad defensive first baseman, the numbers bear that out. The watch in him bears it out. There's an argument to be made that he cost Kodai Zanga half a season. So I don't know that it can get like appreciably worse in terms of the actual value contribution. It could certainly look doofier, you know, as he's getting up to speed. But we, we've seen guys, as I said, sort of learn to learn to man first base as a means of extending their career when they can't play the field anymore, but their bat is still productive. And I think Polanco's drifting into that territory. His was great sunglasses, you know, he's got those cool specs. I bet they'll love those cool specs in New York. People in New York love cool specs, you know, for that.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. So playoff hero.

[Ben Limburg]

So playoff hero. I mean, like, look, I've. I've been. I've been goofing a little bit here. Enough cannot be said as a Mariners fan about like the very narrow but deep place that Polanco will occupy in Mariners lore. Right. Like his tenure, largely unremarkable. Good bat, you know, certainly helpful and productive bat. And at times when the rest of the lineup wasn't hitting very well and then when he was hitting well from July onward and like Julio got going and you have Cal and Naylor's there and you're like, wow, you're really cooking with gas. We got something here. This is a lineup, a real lineup. But the thing that I will always remember is his postseason performance and the. The role that that played in really literally launching them into the ALCs, among other things.

[Meg Relly]

So.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know, it seems. I mean, it's weird because he doesn't play the basis. The position he's being signed to play, at least not yet. But they really do need to go sign a pre. A premium bat though now I think that they got to go get a, you know, a Kyle Tucker. I think.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, that. That would be nice. Or a top of the rotation pitcher or something, but. Or both. Or both. We did say last time that. Happy birthday. Birthday. Mark Viento. Suddenly you have a position open. Not so fast. No. So I guess they're not Big believers in a Viento's bounce back or don't want to count on that at least. And Blanco can, he can be a backup if you need him to be. If you have injury absences or something at second or third, you could slot him in there if need be. But I guess if you're a Mets fan, you might think, well, we cheaped out a little or we went a little cheaper for slightly worse replacements. We lost Diaz, we got Devin Williams, we lost Alonzo, we got Polanco, and you're still spending a fair amount for those guys. It's not exactly cheap. It's two years, 40 million for Polanco. So it's, it's like 2/3 of Pete Alonso on an average annual value basis and then obviously a much shorter term. But yeah, maybe you're, you're getting 2/3 of Pete or something on paper. So you might say, well, we're the Mets, we should just go get the premier high talent and high dollar value guy. But they might yet do that. I guess if, if that's the whole off season is just kind of getting slightly cheaper versions of the guys you lost and slightly less good probably versions of the guys you lost, then that would be a bit disappointing. But if you then repurpose those savings for some other top free agent. Yeah, that makes it go down a little bit easier.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah. This is why I think it's like incomplete. And, you know, it's December 15th. We don't need to be, we don't need to have a completely done list.

[Meg Relly]

You know, and there's a world where Devin Williams bounces back and is just as good as Diaz. And there's a world where Jorge Polanco's offensive improvement this year proves to be real and sustainable. And he did make some changes to his setup and swing and everything and then seemed to pay dividends in exit speed. So maybe they're believers in him managing to keep up that performance more or less from last season. So. Okay. Okay. Yeah, there you go. There's a move. I don't know that that will satisfy Mets fans for now, but it fills a spot, I suppose. Other moves to talk about. Well, there was the Twins also signing a. Well, I don't know. Can we call Josh Bella first baseman?

[Ben Limburg]

Sure.

[Meg Relly]

Dh. First baseman?

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, I guess a dh.

[Meg Relly]

But yeah, Josh Bell is going to Minnesota. He's another guy who made some changes and improved his swing speed ET and it didn't really change his overall numbers very much this past year. And really he has not been a valuable player for quite some time if we're being completely honest about it and why wouldn't we be? But it's been a few years since he has at least war wise been better than more or less a replacement level player. So there were some changes that you could kind of talk yourself, I think. Matt True Blood wrote about this recently for Baseball Prospectus that maybe you think there's some sort of bounce back, late career breakout kind of thing coming. But he' five and a half million for a year and we know the Twins not exactly breaking the bank these days in general.

[Ben Limburg]

So I also think that like a suspicion that I have now about Josh Bell is that he just must be like the best hang because he keeps getting work, you know. And to your point, hasn't been a particularly productive player for a little while, but he's a guy who's been, who's been traded for, you know, a number of times over the last couple of years and he keeps getting, getting work. So I don't know, I think he must be a great hang because people keep wanting to give him some jobs and sure is the the caliber of club in terms of their current aspirations. Although the Twins project weirdly well for next year. But like, given their aspirations, you'd expect a club like Minnesota to be in the Josh Bell business. But I don't know they're in the Josh Bell business. So there you go.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. Okay. Couple reliever moves. This one broke last week after we recorded, but the Blue Jays have sign find Tyler Rogers. Yeah, revamping their bullpen. It's interesting because the Blue Jays and the Dodgers both matched up in the World Series and both had bad bullpens and that was kind of their weakness in the postseason. And they've both taken some steps to address that. Edwin Diaz was the more noteworthy step, the more prominent step in the records, contract or salary for him and Rogers going to the Blue Jays, it's a little less headline grab because he has basically been a setup guy and will continue to be, but he's a really good pitcher and he's coming off maybe his best year. And so the brewers have, they've made a few more minor moves to shore up that bullpen and of course they've made big moves in the, in the rotation and you know, signing Dylan Cease and Cody Ponce and they now have too many starters for a starting rotation. So I don't know if they will hold on to all of those guys. I know Jose Brios has been mentioned as a trade candidate and was mentioned as bullpen candidate last year before he got hurt. So I don't know if he ends up being bullpen depth or on some other team or what. But they did trade for Chase Lee, who's a sidearmer. So they got the side armor, they got the Submariner.

[Ben Limburg]

Submariner so much.

[Meg Relly]

Every possible arm angle. You got Trey Savage, extreme over the top, all the possible release points. Got to catch them all. I like that they took Spencer Miles in the Rule 5 draft, so. Yeah, they did. They're just stockpiling some arms. And the Dodgers, they currently, according to the fan graphs, depth charts, project to have the best bullpen in baseball. We will see. I'm sure they projected to have a good bullpen last year, too.

[Ben Limburg]

They sure did.

[Meg Relly]

Things fell apart. The Blue Jays, though, they project to be top 10. Currently, they're number eight because they have Hoffman and they've got Rogers and they've got everyday Louis Varland and you have Jimmy Garcia coming back and Eric Lauer, postseason hero slotting in there and various other guys. So, yeah, it looks like it could be a decent pen, especially if it's bolstered by depth from the starting rotation. But yeah, yeah, I'm liking that staff as a whole.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, I just appreciate that. So the Touchers were fourth in positional power rankings entering the season. Yeah, yeah. Didn't work out that way, did it? I just appreciate the obvious ambition being demonstrated by Toronto and by the Dodgers too. Right. Like, it would be understandable if they were to come to rest on their laurels a little bit, having just won the World Series and they don't seem to have much of an interest in doing that. And the Blue Jays, having been on the receiving end of a devastating loss, have just been like, like, let's go make our club better in a lot of the ways that made us vulnerable last year. Let's. Let's shore up some obvious weaknesses and I think, you know, they have rightly assessed that there, there is ambition in the AL East. It's not as if it's not there. But you don't have the Yankees in a spot where they're like dying to go spend a bunch of money. The Orioles have a lot of work yet to do and no offense to Pete Alonso, but, you know, famously not a pitcher. So there are ins to be had here and I think want to be taken seriously in a division that even if it's not quite as robust from a spending perspective in some respects as it's been in recent years, is going to still project really well and be hard and so go, go, go get them. I like that. I think it's great. I wish that more clubs, you know, we've seen some World Series losers in the last couple of years be like, I'm going to try to go get better. I hope it goes better for Toronto than it's gone for, say, the Diamondback, whose attempts at doing that have largely been, wait for it, snake bit and we'll get to the D backs in a moment. But I like it. I think, you know, they're, they're trying to go do the thing and I think that that is an admirable pursuit and one that's well within their capability as a, you know, a club that has the means to spend. So good for them.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, use that Rogers money on Rogers and some other guys.

[Ben Limburg]

You know, I think Rogers is, is really fun. I love the like arm slot diversity that they're assembling because it's just cool to watch. Right. They like the Rays used to do this a lot where it was like you could kind of make a, A peacock's tail out of all the different. Yeah, right.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah.

[Ben Limburg]

Arm angles.

[Meg Relly]

There have been suggestions and some studies, research about whether that helps, whether there's some sort of effect of just varying angle. I think Depot has talked about this in the past, just wanting like a bullpen octopus just sort of coming every angle. And I've seen some studies that if I recall weren't completely conclusive, but seems like it, it could help to give guys different looks. And even if it doesn't help, it is fun.

[Ben Limburg]

It's fun, right?

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. Like.

[Ben Limburg]

And Rogers is a good, I think a good arm. And as we talked about when we had Clemens on to. To Discuss the top 50, like an arm who I think is better than his projections would necessarily suggest. I think, you know, the projections sometimes have a hard time knowing what to do with a submari and Mariner. Mariner Sub. Mariner sub.

[Meg Relly]

I always puzzle over that. Yeah. I have surveyed actual members of, of the submarine service to figure out what they do and I've been puzzling this for years. Like, if you serve on a submarine, are you a submariner or submariner? I. I think in the baseball context at least, I think it's mariner. I think it's mariner. Yeah.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah. We typically say mariner. Yeah, I would say submariner if I were a submariner. Because you're a mariner, not a marine. Right. From a pronunciate. Anyway, that would be what I would do. Although are there marines who serve on submarines but you say submarine, so that, where, where does that leave you? Nowhere at all. Leaves you nowhere.

[Meg Relly]

You have a marine on a submarine, but you might have a submarine of some sort. I don't know.

[Ben Limburg]

Right.

[Meg Relly]

Neymar, the superhero submariner. That's, that's typically submariner, but you're doing.

[Ben Limburg]

Dark on a Monday. On a Monday. I respect it. But all that to say that I think that he is better than he projects. And as, as Ben, as other Ben noted when we were talking to him about the top 50. Like I think that the way he is valued by teams, particularly in trade, sort of reflects that and that he has been traded for actual guys and he got a reasonably sized contract. So I like it quite a bit. I think it's a nice fit for them. And yeah, that's what I have to say about that.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. And I mentioned on a recent episode that it does seem like the AL east is really stocking up. I mean, what else is new? It's the AL east, but even so, Boston has gotten better, Toronto's gotten better. The Yankees haven't been that busy yet, but you figure that they will be. And there was even a report this weekend that Michael King is choosing among the Orioles, Red Sox and Yankees as his finalists in free agency. So if that turns out to be true, that could be another addition. So someone asks that we stat blast just like an influx of talent in an off season to a division. Maybe we'll get around to that at some point. But yeah, it seems like the Yankees are sort of the, the sleeping giant of the off season. Unless you count resigning Ahmed Rosario, but probably most people wouldn't really count that as a major move. But yeah, it's good to see good teams trying to get better.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah.

[Meg Relly]

And, and even some teams that are not coming off tremendously disappointing seasons like the Orioles are. Okay, well, we've been dancing around the Diamondback, so we will mention that they did bring back Mel Kelly. Yeah, Many people may have even forgotten that he left at all because he wasn't gone for. He was traded to the Rangers at the deadline. But now he is back long time. Diamondback will be a future Diamondback as well. And clearly he likes being there and they like having him there. So now he's signed up for another tour of duty on a two year deal. So yeah, I don't have a huge amount to say about that just because it's two years 40. It was the same as Polanco. Right. But yeah, you know, I guess I think of those two teams I kind of lumped the Diamondbacks and Rangers together in my mind lately just because of the 2023 World Series matchup and then the subsequent disappointment. So he's been on both now?

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, I and you know, they've to that point been doing some trades back and forth. I like it. I like Merrill Kelly a lot. I think it seemed like an obvious fit. He's from here, you know, and I think I suspected that he would be on his way back. And also, you know, they're in such a strange in between spot. What do young people call it? A liminal space. I think as Michael Rosen maybe referred to it in his write up of the signing, a liminal space between sort of contention and rebuilding where they've sunk all this money into the rotation and then all those guys have gotten hurt and, and Corbin Burns is still coming back from Tommy John. You're not going to have him right away. Zach Gallen is gone now and so you have to think that they need reinforcement there, but they probably didn't want to spend too, too, too much money. And Kelly might have, you know, had some combination of hometown discount and age related discount. Incredibly effective despite like not throwing very hard. But he just has such a great diverse arsenal and he commands it so well. So I like it as a fit for them. I also wonder what it, it might tell us about sort of how their talks to potentially move Catal Marte have progressed because I mean they, they could have used reinforcement in the rotation even if they flip Marte for, you know, a frontline starter. But you have to think that what they were asking for in these potential Catal Marte talks was, was pitching and, and basically big league ready pitching, which I understand. But also think that like the odds of them finding, finding a fit that make Marte worth moving were pretty low. And I wonder if this signing kind of bears that out a little bit that they just haven't been able to find the right trade partner. They go make Cadell Marte Seattle Mariner again, that'd be fine. But then they have to get some pitching. I don't know if I care for that, Ben. So I like it. I think it makes a good bit of sense for all involved and I enjoy watching Merrill Kelly pitch. So I'm excited to have him back in town. How nice.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, another thing I like is the trade a player at the deadline and then resign him immediately after the season. That gambit, yeah, it's very satisfying to me and it doesn't happen that often and this would have been a good Thing to stat blast. Except I sort of pre stat blasted it a decade ago because I wrote about this phenomenon for Grantland back in 2014 because the Red Sox had just traded John Lester to the A's and immediately there was speculation that the Red Sox would just re sign him after that season. And I said not so fast. History suggests that he won't resign with the Red Sox. And indeed he didn't. He signed with the Cubs instead, which I guess was a reunion in a sense. He went to another Theo Epstein team and worked out for the Cubs and for Lester. They won a World Series together. But he did not in fact return to the Red Sox. And I looked up how often this happened and I was looking for the narrow case of actually being true. Traded mid season, trade deadline. Ish. Not like before a season because sometimes that happens to like. Like Kenny Lofton in Maybe it was 97, I guess was traded away from Cleveland and then he subsequently resigned the following off season went back to Cleveland. So there's that kind of case. Yeah, it was was 97. Then in March he was traded to Atlanta and then that December he signed back with Cleveland. But I don't even mean that kind of case. I mean during the season.

[Ben Limburg]

Right.

[Meg Relly]

I guess Cliff Lee was another one of those, I think where he was. Yeah, he was traded by the Mariners. Yeah, he was. Well, he was traded by the Phillies.

[Ben Limburg]

Yep.

[Meg Relly]

In December to the Mariners. And then the Mariners traded him at the following deadline and then. Right, yeah, and then he signed with the Phillies in December 2010, which was a year after they had traded him away. So that happens every now and then. But I found that this specific thing, trade a player at the deadline and then resign him over the following offseason happens about once a year on average. I went back, this was in 2014, but I found 35 examples dating back to 1978 I think was when I started close to the advent of free agency. So it was. Was on average about once a year. And the most notable case then, and I guess still, though I have not rerun the numbers, was Ricky Henderson. The A's traded Ricky Henderson. Well, multiple times I guess. But specifically they traded him July 31st trade lead line in 1993 they traded him to Toronto and then they resigned him in December they brought him back and yeah, he was the best player to have this kind of thing. Harold Banes also went through something similar. Mike Bordick, Rico Cardi, Sidney Ponso and Austin Kearns. Yeah, I have not refreshed this sample but. But I like this. I like when this happened because it's. It's sort of nifty. It's like, well, yeah, we got something out of him. Like, we. We got something back. We traded in, we got some tackles, and then we got to keep him, too. It's, you know, you have your. Your cake and, and eat it, too, and you get maybe some prospects back or something, and then you still have the player at the end. It's. It's sort of satisfying, but it doesn't happen all that often because once you deal someone. I actually, for that piece, I spoke to Sandy Alderson, who I guess was still with the Mets then, but he had been the one who traded Rickey Henderson and. And the A's had already traded Henderson one once to the Yankees in 84. And Alderson said, so that wasn't the first time, referring to 93. Given the fact that he was from Oakland and had strong family ties there. With his mother having been traded to New York and brought back once, the possibility of bringing him back a second time wasn't out of the question. So I guess that's what you're saying with Kelly, that he's from the area. So, yeah, I guess a lot of baseball players are from the area or at least have settled in the area. But. But that helps. Alderson told me the likelihood of convincing a player to come back such a short time after you've traded them away depends on the relationship that existed before the transaction and the circumstances of the transaction. Right. Where if everybody sort of understands why it makes sense for a deal to be made, then I think there's a greater possibility that the player can return. But if the relationship wasn't terrific to begin with, or if there's a misunderstanding or disagreement over the circumstances of the trade itself, then I think that also diminishes the chances. So, yeah, yeah, you could imagine there being some bad blood over that or some hurt feelings. Hey, you just got rid of me.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah.

[Meg Relly]

And I. I asked Alderson. He told me that bringing a player back usually doesn't come up before the deal goes down. Because I was wondering, what do you talk to the guy and say, hey, yeah, you're about to be a free agent. We could bring you right back. But he said that he didn't remember ever engaging in a discussion like that once when he was going to trade a player. And then, of course, once you do trade them, you can't talk about it anymore. You can't tamper. Right. So he said, they do get Mad about that. Yeah. There are a lot of forces at work in free agency that a club can't always anticipate. And I think that's probably why it's so rare that a player does actually resign with a team that recently traded him away. Once you sever the relationship, you've got to be prepared for the player to move on based on how the market reacts to free agency. And Dan o', Dowd, Wow. I talked to a lot of people for this piece. How about that former rocker. Yeah. Rocky's GM Dano Dowd said when dealing with players trades, it is always difficult to squeeze the toothpaste back in the bottle. Once you have squeezed it out, even the best of intentions and world class communications does not matter in my humble opinion, unless your offer is higher than any other on the table. So. Yeah, that helps too.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah. To everyone's point about like the circumstances of it mattering, like I can imagine, you know, this was sort of true. It didn't end up bearing fruit because, because, you know, the Rangers weren't able to get it done. But like, I do think it matters when you're trading a guy. First of all, if you're trading a guy who's about to be a free agent, like, the stakes of it going wildly off the rails for him seem low to me because it's like you're only going to be there for a couple of months, Right. It's not like getting flipped to the. Well, let me just be rude. So like, you know, if you'd been flipped to the White Sox, it's like, well, this is a bad baseball team, but you're only going to be there for a couple of months. So like go have some good hot dogs and enjoy yourself. But when you're, when you're being flipped to a team that is like ostensibly trying to compete, I think sometimes that washes over veterans in a nice way. Particularly if you're like in the process of tearing down. It's like, well, here we're gonna, we're getting something out of this. We're not doing it out of the goodness of our heart. But also you have an opportunity to potentially like get playoff time and go chase a ring. And I think guys react to that differently than they do were were dealing you to some, you know, bottom of the division club that can only play spoiler or what have you. So.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. Although I guess as it turned out, the Diamondbacks ended up closer to the playoffs than the Rangers did. Yeah, that was kind of unexpected.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, it didn't quite Work. But the idea was that they were going to kind of go for it a little bit.

[Meg Relly]

So, yeah, Doug Glanville for that piece and he talked about the psychological aspects. Yeah, look at me. The shoe leather recording for this, this post trade deadline blog. But it takes so much emotional energy, he said, to leave a long term team relationship. And it's worse when you didn't initiate it. Once you settle in and get a taste of leaving, it's a lot easier to keep going and make more detached decisions. So, yeah, you can kind of make it a clean break. But not in this case. No. It's a happy reunion, hopefully.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, I just, you know, I was talking about this with someone at one of meetings. You know, I would hate to be traded. I would hate it so much. I hate moving. We've talked about this. It'd be so profoundly destabilizing. Whereas, like signing in a new market, sure, maybe you're, maybe you're having to move. I mean, not in Merrill Kelly's circumstance. I'm sure he's like, this is great. We don't have to buy boxes. They take up so much room when you're getting them home, you know, like so much room getting them home. And then they're like, we will deliver the boxes. But then that's very expensive. So then you're doing all these trips to loads, Lowe's or Home Depot or whatever.

[Meg Relly]

Anyway, expense might not matter as much if you signed a $40 million deal.

[Ben Limburg]

But I, I hear you on that. But it's about, sometimes it's about the principle of the thing, you know, and you just feel like, I know I'm getting ripped off and even if I have the money to afford to be ripped off, I don't want to be ripped off. Like, I'm not enjoying being ripped off anyway. But I think that if you're like getting ready to sort of launch into a free agent signing, well, then you can think about it as like a new adv for you and your family. Right. Like I would if I were married to a ball player. Like, I'd hate to be traded. But like, if, if he were to tell me, oh, we're going to go to, let's go to Japan for two years. I'm going to play in mvb. I'd be like, awesome, let's go. That sounds like an amazing adventure. Like, get to go live in a totally new place and experience a new culture. And, you know, Phoenix has culture. It's not new to Mel Kelly, but anyway, I just think the circumstances of it do do matter a good bit. Like they would wash over you in a really different way depending on how much agency you have in the whole thing.

[Meg Relly]

So what else? A couple other reliever related moves. Kenley Jansen continuing the late career itinerant portion of his journey here. Yeah, he's he's now on the Tigers. So the Tigers have brought back Kyle Finnegan as we discussed, and now they've added Kenley Jansen to the mix along along with Will Vest and others. So I don't know, I kind of like that, I guess. I like that Kenley is still a productive pitcher and a decent sort of save getter. I don't know how the bullpen hierarchy will work out there. I assume if you have Kenley Janssen, just in deference to his age and his career save total and everything, I'm sure he's motivated to keep adding to that total and perhaps he received some assurances about what his role will be assuming he performs. But you know, it doesn't even matter so much who's actually getting the saves and and who is in a setup role. And maybe it's a mix and match, bullpen by committee matchups kind of deal. But, but I'm glad that Jansen is still good and that contending teams still want him and understandably so because it looked for a while there like maybe his career was winding down and and he has sort of salvaged it. He's coming off a really strong year for the Angels. The the peripheral is not quite as impressive as the surface stats, but he did get the job done and he's 38 now. And I mean in terms of his hall of Fame case, you got to say, like, he's I don't know if he's a no doubter, but just going by other relievers who have been inducted, he's right there. Like if you go by our jaws, the reliever adjusted jaws, which according to the tool tip at Baseball Reference, an adjusted JAWS figure that attempts to offset the starting pitcher WAR from some of the candidates by incorporating win probability and leverage, the average of war, win probability added and win probability added over leverage index. Kelly Jensen ranks sixth all time in that metric. He is sandwiched between Trevor Hoffman and Billy Wagner, two other hall of Famers trailing only Rivera, Eckersley, Wilhelm and Gossage and Hoffman, all Hall of Famers. He's ahead of lots of other hall of Famers, ahead of Lee Smith, who I think he trails by two career saves, ahead of Raleigh Fingers, ahead of Bruce Suter. Like he's got the longevity and the consistency in the counting stats where if you are a relievers deserve to be in the hall pursuit, then I don't know how you could keep Kenley out at this point, but he's just, he's continuing to compile and burnish the career stats.

[Ben Limburg]

I like Kenley Jansen and I do not want this to be read as a as an anti Kenley Janssen take. I am simply saying to your point, I imagine that Kenley Jansen has expectations about his role and I don't know if he is the perfect fit to be a closer anymore on a team that maybe has the ambition that I hope the Tigers. That said, who knows what Kenley Jansen and the Detroit Tigers have sort of agreed to. And also maybe Kenley Jansen will be like, I'm so glad to not be an Angel. I'll pitch whenever you want me to. That's a possibility too, that we simply must allow for. When you say our jaws, it makes me want to go like our jaws in the middle of the street. Don't you like it when I make up little funny songs? Isn't that one of your favorite things about me?

[Meg Relly]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. You know, it's. I don't know that I would necessarily want him on the mound in October 2026. We'll see how he does between now and then. But it was a weakness for the Tigers last year. The bullpen, yes. And there was a point at which Vest and maybe Finnegan were just about the only reliable guys out there and they really had a problem missing bats. They just did not have a huge amount of whiffs for a modern bullpen. And they still don't, I guess because Finnegan and Jensen were fairly effective last year, last season, but they were still just sub strikeout printing guys, which is not great for a reliever in 2025, especially a late inning reliever. So they have their other merits and good control and ground balls and all the rest. But yeah, they're not really like lights out, fire breathing bullpen monsters at this stage of their career. So it's kind of a bulk approach. It's like we'll get a bunch of decent guys, but is there that one guy that you're scared to face? Right, yeah, not necessarily.

[Ben Limburg]

Not necessarily. But who knows? Maybe freed from the burdens of the Angel's bullpen, who knows, maybe he'll fly again. I'm really grasping for a further analogy.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, on the surface I guess he sort of had a better year with the Angels than he'd had in some time. But under the surface he had to.

[Ben Limburg]

Be an angel, though Ben. That carries with it a burden.

[Meg Relly]

Yes. It was his worst FIP at least his worst FIP since 2018. That was a while ago. He's still chugging along.

[Ben Limburg]

So that was a while ago.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, it's like. Yeah, he's had this phase of tacking on of still being a pretty productive pitcher which is often. I mean there is. There's that maxim about like you become a Hall of famer in your 30s which. Right. You know, I guess it's kind of true.

[Ben Limburg]

Kind of true.

[Meg Relly]

You also usually have to do a lot of good work in your 20s to get to that point. But it's true that the thing that sometimes sets apart the players who get in and the players who don't is is what they do post peak.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah.

[Meg Relly]

And can they hang on. Yeah, exactly. As productive players. And so Kenley's having a a pretty long and and good post prime period as a reliever as evidenced by the fact that yep. Someone still wants him saving games or at least playing a crucial part in saving games at this stage of his career. Okay, what else do we have? We had a signing by the Phillies who added Adoles Garcia, another ex Ranger to the mix. This is a. It's an interesting one cuz the Rangers actually non tendered a dull east and I think that his projected salary in arbitration from Emily trade rumors and Matt Swartz was in the 12 million range and so the Rangers said no thanks but the Phillies have signed him to a one year $10 million deal. Just not all that much less and I guess more meaningful than the money really is the fact that he just was not a good player player last year. This year. Darn it. It's almost January. We're almost there.

[Ben Limburg]

But bro, the the amount of time and look this is gonna sound like I'm calling out my co workers and I don't mean it to but the amount of time I am spending in copy on last year.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah the closer we get to New Year's probably the more prevalent it is but we're. We're almost there.

[Ben Limburg]

Almost there.

[Meg Relly]

But he has not been good since 2023. Now in 2023 he was very good and he helped lead the Rangers to a World Series but but since then below average bat. Significantly below average bat this past year and just not yeah like replacement level ish player and so the Phillies are sort of signing him to I hopefully just like slot in and hit for a year and replace Nick Castellanos, I guess who's going to be shipped out somewhere. And I mean, I don't know. I don't, I don't love it because you're kind of banking on a bounce back to what he was a few years ago for him to be useful for a Phillies team that hopes to go deep into October again.

[Ben Limburg]

Look, I don't want to overreact to a $10 million signing because it's a $10 million signing and as we've noted with the Mets incomplete offseason. Right. We don't know. We don't know. Have they concluded all their business? I think Phillies fans probably hope they haven't. It just seems like a lot of money to have tied up in that position that isn't anticipated to be very productive because they're trying to get out from under Castellanos. Dealis Garcia is like not very good. It hasn't been very good for long enough that we can maybe have some confidence in it there. There's, there's still some very loud tools on offer here but, but he's not being a particularly useful guy from an outfield perspective. Although the arm is still great, but it's not as good. You know, it feels like it should be as good but it hasn't manifested in the same way. And the power is still there presumably, but he's not making contact enough for it to matter.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, he's still an okay right fielder, I mean certainly compared to Nick Castellano's just about anywhere else. But not that he would be playing that much out there. But, but yeah, even, even probably compared to Max Kepler. They hoped that he would work out and he didn't this year. Not last year, this year. So yeah, they usually say, you know, no such thing as a bad one year deal. And it's true, it's not disastrous or anything but it's more so than the money, it's the playing time you're tying up in him. And as a team that hopes to make a deep run and is going to be in a tight race presumably in that division again, then you don't to want to give plate appearances to a guy who's not going to make much of them. So evidently they, they think that he can get back to some semblance of what he was or it wouldn't really make sense to have him on any term.

[Ben Limburg]

But, but why, you know, like I think about the. And again, it takes two to dango. It's going to cost more to get him than it is going to cost for Adoles Garcia. But, like, do you just want to resign here? Some baiter, you know, isn't that a big better roster fit for what you need? Also vibes. You know, you've had the vibes. I don't think that. My sense is not that Odis Garcia has bad vibes, but he just has unproven Phillies vibes. You know what I mean? Like, whereas we've seen the bader vibes.

[Meg Relly]

And they were very distinct clubhouse as we have covered, so.

[Ben Limburg]

Right. And you need some good vibes. But who knows? Maybe. Maybe the real motivation behind the science signing is that they. They met with the dualies and he's like, look, pasteurization, number one priority for me. And they were like, this is our guy.

[Meg Relly]

What kind of milk do you consume?

[Ben Limburg]

And we're gonna get more than $10 million worth of value just out of him. Changing Bryce Harper's mind. Every time I look at Bryce, I feel like it's getting worse, which is unfair because I'm looking at, like, the same photos of him. They're not new photos, but every time I feel like I notice a new alarming characteristic. Ben, it's bad. So anyway, I don't really get the. I don't really get this one. But, you know, again, incomplete. But also. What are you guys doing? I don't get that one.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. It's not like he had some great underlying numbers or quality of contact or something. A little bit better than his surface stats, but not that much better. Even if he had performed right up to the quality of contact, it still would not have been very good.

[Ben Limburg]

Wouldn't have been very, very good.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, he's, you know, not particularly patient hitter. Walks were never really his strong suit. And if he's hitting for less power.

[Ben Limburg]

Right.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, I don't know. Right.

[Ben Limburg]

I don't know.

[Meg Relly]

I don't get something, but I don't know what it is exactly.

[Ben Limburg]

But, yeah, I'm gonna try to get that one. Yeah.

[Meg Relly]

Okay. All right. And then there was a trade. There was a Royals brewers deal.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah.

[Meg Relly]

So Isaac Collins and Nick Mears, the reliever going to Kansas City for Angel Serpent, who is or was a reliever, though maybe the brewers see him, might.

[Ben Limburg]

Be a starter for them.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. Well, speaking of outfield upgrades, the Royals really needed one because they're coming off the worst outfield in baseball. Worst hitting outfield in baseball.

[Ben Limburg]

Goodness.

[Meg Relly]

Also worst overall. Their entire outfield was negative 1.1 war last year. It was really bad. And that was primarily, though, not Exclusively just because they could not hit. Just could not hit at all. Yeah, it was really bleak. 73 WRC plus from all Royals outfielders last year. So Isaac Collins, who was one of many brewers rookie of the year candidates or finishers and what did he finish? Fourth, I think in the run? Yeah, he was fourth. And you know, he was kind of a fun player. He's. He was 28 and that was his rookie year. He debuted briefly in 2024.

[Ben Limburg]

Guy, great story.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, very fun. And. And I don't know that he will play as well again as he did in 2025. But even if he's kind of close, I guess it's an upgrade. It can't get much worse.

[Ben Limburg]

I like this. I like this on both ends. The brewers have. Have a real excess out there. I think anytime you're able, we'll obviously see what they're able to make out of Zerpa. But like anytime you're able to turn a Rule 5 guy into like if they have their way of big league starter, I think you're doing pretty well. I like the notion of Collins in Kansas City. I think that that's a, you know, to your point, even if he's not as good as he was last year, probably just by default an upgrade for their outfield situation, I still think that like if they want to be serious in that division, they probably would benefit from signing like a. A real surer thing than Collins. They, you know, they also took the flyer on Lane Thomas like, you know, so they, they clearly know that they have an issue out there, but they are banking on some guys that either have been injured or don't have a super proven track record. But I voted for Collins on my rookie of the year ballot. I mean I voted for Drake Bald when number one, but I think Collins was my second pick. I thought he'd finish a little bit better just because I thought the narrative would be compelling to people. But yeah, I don't know. This could be like kind of respectable. It could be. And it was so bad.

[Meg Relly]

It was just so bad last year.

[Ben Limburg]

So can't be that bad again, right? Nope.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. And. And you know, you kind of hoped and thought it might improve potentially after Jack came up and then it did not. It didn't really show.

[Ben Limburg]

Got worse in fact.

[Meg Relly]

Hopefully he makes some strides this coming season. But Collins is a good complimentary piece or good starter for them and you know, if he doesn't suffer too much of a sophomore slump decline, then he should help at least. It does seems like sort of a lot to give up, I guess, for the Brewers. If you're. If you look at Mears and Serpa as sort of similar, comparable, then seems like, oh, you, you just kind of did a reliever for reliever, but then you also threw in a pretty good player who's under team control for a long time. But I guess Collins is pretty blocked with the brewers because they don't have the same outfield depth issue that Kansas City does. And then I guess they seem to see Serpa as a potential starter who's also controllable a little longer than Mears. And then he's a ground ball guy which, which helps on that roster. Good defense.

[Ben Limburg]

There's also definitely like, you know, I don't want to oversell it. Like, there's definitely a Brewer's ness to this that I think should be remarked upon where it's like, yeah, we get an extra year of team control and it's like, well, okay, but I think that, you know, as we said, like, they have a number of guys. I think they're probably right to. To think that they've maybe caught all the lightning in a bottle. They're going to with Collins. They could definitely be wrong about that. And if he's a three win player, again, like, that might end up looking pretty bad for them. But I do like Zerpa as a name. I feel confident in that. And you know, I don't often feel great betting against the. The brewers player dev machine.

[Meg Relly]

So. Okay, well, I guess that kind of covers most of the noteworthy transactions that have happened since we last spoke. I have a couple other things to bring up. One, there was a report at the Athletic by Inoceras. Don't know if you saw this. This just came out.

[Ben Limburg]

This was the buzz of winter meetings.

[Meg Relly]

Okay, gotcha. This just came up on Monday at the Athletic aiming to level playing field MLB to regulate use of data and tech in minors. So this is something not. Not minors as in younger players, amateurs, but the minor leagues. This is something that has come up now for a couple years. There was a report, I believe, at the athletic maybe in 2023 years ago that some owners were interested in having some kind of cap on spending. Not on player payroll, but overall spending, front office spending, technology, various data providers, and a subsequent report that Dick Monfort was maybe one of the ones leading the charge. Shocking soccer. And now we're seeing some movement here where basically everyone is going to have access to the same tech in the minor leagues, which will mean that some teams will have more than they used to and other teams will have less that teams that are kind of on the cutting edge might have to actually trim some things and sever some relationships.

[Ben Limburg]

Assuming that their providers don't get approved for.

[Meg Relly]

Yes, yes. So it's sort of subject to who kind of gets officially greenlit as a data provider technology partner here. So part of it I guess is just that Hawkeye, the basis of the Statcast system, will be extended to all the minor leagues, to all the teams and sort of standardized and that that will be centrally operated. So MLB will just handle all of that. And teams have had, had Hawkeye in the Miners, but to varying degrees and at different times and maybe not at all levels and everything. And yeah, it's kind of been a case by case thing. So now that's going to be just MLB operated and centralized and standardized. And then yeah, it's. If you have other relationships, if you get your biomechanical data from Kinetrax, let's say, instead of Hawkeye, then, well, subject to whether Kinetrax gets approved as an official league partner, maybe you'd have to change that or you know, other things that maybe some teams will see as edges. Competitive advantages will now not be. So the ostensible reason for this is that it's going to lead to parody and competitive balance because supposedly some teams, big market teams, have flexed their financial method might in this area as well. And so by putting everyone on a level playing field when it comes to this particular thing, you might give other teams a leg up. The primary reason, I assume, is just to cut costs. You know, it's because owners just don't want to spend. Even if most of this stuff is kind of a pittance compared to player payroll, they still want it to be an even smaller pittance than it was. So yeah, you know, there's still going to be the differentiator of what do you do with that data and what sort of analysis analysis can you conduct and how do you store all of it and how do you actually have people who can produce actionable insights from all of that and then communicate it to your players and coaches at various levels? So it's, it's not as if there aren't still going to be differences in how teams handle information at that level. But it is a change definitely from this era of player development and data driven player development and how you really could kind of get ahead of the pack by forging these partnerships early. And now it's just the ultimate, like if you're the late adopter if you're the laggard then you're just going to get what everyone else gets. But if you were early to all of this then you might sort of get slapped down. Hey you, you can't actually have this special info anymore.

[Ben Limburg]

Back a couple years ago there was a trend of big league teams paying for trackman installations at colleges and then they would get exclusive data rights to things that were to the data that was produced on those trackmans track men track mans. And the league put a stop to that and said that all data had to sort of be centrally shared. And I understood the rationale in that decision. Where it doesn't seem, seem particularly fair for like and I don't remember who had Vandy's unit but like say the Dodgers to have exclusive rights to Vanderbilt's trackman unit or LSU or whatever. This strikes me as anti competitive behavior. I'm not a lawyer but I'm also curious like if I were one of these vendors I would be getting ready to sue the out of the league because it's like if your kin attracts and I guess kin tenant tracks maybe is a bad example because they have the same parent company as Hawkeye. Right. But if you're one of these data providers and you've built a business and you have existing relationships with the business entity that is say again the Los Angeles Dodgers and you're supposed to be able to operate in the marketplace. Well, what if you don't get approved? Aren't these supposed to be independent business entities? In theory. So that piece of it I don't quite understand understand. I also think that like it depends on who's really advocating for this and I hope additional reporting kind of gives us insight into that because Monfor and the Rockies seem like the exact right kind of team to think that this is a good idea because you know we, we tend to differentiate between like big market and small market cheap and and large payroll. But smaller market teams with less payroll to work with tend to really like this kind of stuff because to your point the return on investment, investment is super high. Right. If you can turn Isaac Collins into a viable big leaguer through player dev, well that's a huge win for your organization even if you're the brewers and you don't have a ton of money to spend. And so it is a way for clubs that don't have huge payroll resource and I'm just like for the purposes of this conversation going to take everybody at their word on that for a minute. But if you are Major League Baseball and You have, have advanced a narrative that no, there's a real difference, there's a real difference between the small market teams and the big market teams and what they're able to afford. You want small market teams to invest in tech like this because it allows them to compete with the big market teams to a certain degree. So I just think it's, I think it's cheap, I think it's anti competitive. I think that it will have a chilling effect on the kind of innovations that we see in player development. And I think it sucks. So there's that because it isn't. I don't think that the real differentiation is big market to small market on this one. It is to a certain degree because infrastructure and tech costs money and those data agreements cost money. And like figuring out hiring people to run, you know, a tech stack neck takes money and all this stuff. But like dollars to donuts is a pretty cheap way to improve your club. And I wonder if the real detractors of this kind of spending aren't. I mean maybe it will prove to be. And I, again, I'd love to see additional reporting on this. Maybe it'll prove to be Cleveland or Tampa, but I'm skeptical of that. I think it's, I think it's the Rockies. Yeah, I really think it's probably the Rockies. And like in conversations with player dev folks, I think you'd have to go a long time and work pretty hard to find advocates at the lower levels in any club. I think that everyone understands that this is very often money well spent. Which isn't to say that it's always money well spent. And I have definitely talked to team folks who are like, it's garbage in, garbage out and you have to be able to know what to do with it. To your point and, and some, you know, there are a lot of clubs that take meetings with data providers where it's like, oh well this is vapor. What they're selling isn't useful. But that's not true of Kinetrax. Right. Like so I don't care for it.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, that was the way that it was framed in the piece at the Athletic. It starts deep pocketed organizations have gained an advantage in recent years by flexing their financial muscle in the minor league leagues. By spending freely on cutting edge tools like high speed cameras and motion capture technology to gather data in game, those teams widen the information gap over rivals with fewer resources. Not anymore. Beginning next season, MLB will regulate the in game technology available for use across all minor league parks. The move is designed to bring parody and quell what until now has been an unchecked arms race. So yeah, those things do seem to be sort of in conflict because okay, maybe it's an unchecked arms race, but that doesn't mean or doesn't have to mean that it's the deep pocketed organizations gaining an advantage in that arms race because unlike in the player payroll arms race where it really does take a lot of money to win that one, comparatively speaking, it does not take nearly as much to be a big spender on data sources and coaches and minor league information. And I guess it, it follows a similar sort of, of progression in a lot of cases with these sabermetric overhauls where it's, it's like with Moneyball, it, it started as a way to, you know, save money or compete without spending much money. And so it was the smaller market teams that were early to that. And then it gets co opted by the rich teams too because they see, oh, this worked well for the A's. Well, we're the Red Sox, let's see if we can hire Billy Bean. Oh, we couldn't hire Billy Bean, but we'll hire Bill James and Theo Epstein and we'll spend lots of money. And you know, so it's not the A's and the Rays and the Guardians forever. It then becomes the Yankees and the Dodgers and the Red Sox or whoever else. And I guess there's been a similar progression here maybe where again, like the Rays were one of the earliest kinetrax teams, if not the earliest.

[Ben Limburg]

Right.

[Meg Relly]

And so it's not as if they're the deep pocketed Rays gaining an advantage by flexing their financial muscle in the minor leagues. It's just that they saw that the return on investment there in their opinion was, was far higher. Because if you can use that technology to spot or develop a player, then that saves you a ton of money in the long run. So this could be and maybe has been to some extent a tool to level the playing field. If anything. Now maybe it's, it's now moved to the phase where it no longer is really because the Dodgers and whoever else are outspending everyone in this realm as well. But, but the mismatch there can't be as big as it is in terms of player payroll. Like you can, you could still afford to keep up if you're a smaller market team in this realm much more readily than you can when it comes to spending on big league teams.

[Ben Limburg]

And it would be one thing if like the, the, the project was, okay, we're Major League Baseball. We recognize there's a gap here. We're going to make it so that like every, every minor league facility has Hawkeye instructions installed. Because those installs are expensive. Like, it can be, you know, to do a ballpark in, in those arrays can. Or cameras can. Like that's probably a couple million dollars. So I don't want to under, I don't want to like say, oh, well, it's nothing. It's like chump change. Because some of these, there's a real spectrum, right? A real range in terms of the expense. And that's before you again factor in like the people required to make anything of that data. If the league wanted to pay for that piece. Fine, do that. That sounds like good level setting. That sounds like good, you know, parody to have. But to, to sneak in and, and sneak is maybe a little unfair on my part. But to, to make as part of that. Well, we're going to have this approved list of vendors and we're going to, you know, you're going to be able to get some of this stuff but not other stuff because we've decided that it's too expensive. Well, that's not level setting. You know, I just think that at some point, and they're never going to do this because ownership interest is what's being guarded here and that is more important than the on field product. But at some point you just, I think the league has to say. And again, they're not going to, but they should say you have to spend money somewhere, right? Like, if you're not going to spend it on players, if you're, if we're going to entertain a version of Major League Baseball that has room for the Pirates, we have to say there needs to be an avenue for you to split, spend something somewhere because what's the point otherwise? You know, at what point do they have to have some like investment in agency in their club? And if you're not gonna, if you're not gonna spend it on, you know, a viable free agent, if you're not gonna invest, if you're, you know, if you're in the range where you're doing the bare minimum to try to avoid a union grievance, we'll spend some money. Like, come on, it's just like how much. And if I were, if I were a big market club, and again, you don't have to be that big market of a club for this to be true, I'd be pissed. Like at some point, how much of this is just you're given charity to the teams that are either too cheap or too uninterested in innovation to do something for themselves. Like, come on, you know.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, it's, you know, obviously they want a player cap to govern all spending, player caps of all kinds, but they can't unilaterally impose player payroll, player cap, but they can, I guess, impose a cap on their own spending. I do wonder, yeah, I wonder what it means for the solidarity of owners in the upcoming round of bargaining. Like, will this help or will this hinder the fact that some teams probably aren't so into this and don't want to cut back and maybe have invested in other operations that now they will have to divest themselves of and maybe they will resent. Prevent the cheapo owners who were getting revenue sharing money and are now saying, oh, and you can't get this advantage here that doesn't even cost you all that much, relatively speaking. So I could see that further fracturing the owners or, I don't know, maybe the owners themselves don't care all that much about this. Maybe it's something that front office folks are more kind of zeroed in on actually what the vendors are and what the data sources are. And you know, maybe owners don't care or are mostly fine with this.

[Ben Limburg]

It just suggests this like, understanding of, of sports ownership that is completely. And not that they're not trying to necessarily stiff their workers in other avenues as well, but like, it's totally incongruous with the understanding of like operating a business. Like they want to have all profit, no expense. And it's like, that's not how any of this works. And you know that because you're a billionaire. And I know that, like, part of how you get to the point of being one of those is that you're constantly trying to wiggle out of having to spend any money on anything. But, you know, that's just not how bit a. If you owned a tire shop, you wouldn't have this expectation and you wouldn't expect if you're, you know, I don't know, would discount auto parts that mein is going to subsidize your payroll. I mean, have some self respect. You know, they're out here pretending they're titans of industry and I'm like, like some of you are barely capitalists.

[Meg Relly]

Okay. I do want to note just because we've gotten many emails about it. Oh, oh, yeah.

[Ben Limburg]

Can I. Okay, sure. I haven't seen the new knives out.

[Meg Relly]

And I am not going to spoil anything. Yeah.

[Ben Limburg]

I'm not going to be able to. I, I told my mom that we would wait to watch it until we were in Washington for Christmas. So this is my plea to our listeners. I understand that it is a baseball movie, but please don't include any details of the plot in your emails about it. I am so excited to talk about it with you, Ben, after Christmas, but I will not be seeing it before then because, and I'm the one who suggested it to Mom, I was like, you know, we do these Christmas movies and I like them and you like them, but sometimes Linda gets bored of them and, and she loves whodunits. So let's watch the new one together.

[Meg Relly]

I will not say anything that will spoil anything, but since we have gotten many emails about it since the movie premiered earlier this month and now it's on Netflix and it's the most popular thing on Netflix. This past weekend I watched it. Jesse and I watched it. We liked it. I liked it more than Glass Onion, the second Knives out movie, which I was not a huge fan of. But.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, you were kind of lukewarm on that one. I enjoyed it.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah.

[Ben Limburg]

But I remember you being.

[Meg Relly]

Help my interests, maybe, because there's more baseball in it. There was less, less baseball in Glass Onion. There was baseball in the original Knives out, and Sam Miller and I discussed that actually, back in early 2020. If you're just watching that movie now or want to go back and Revisit it, episode 1489 and 1490, we discussed the significance of baseball and the baseball. There's an actual physical baseball. Baseball in Knives out, and it is fairly significant. It's. Yeah, it's. It's. I wouldn't say integral to the plot, but it's closely connected to the plot. And yes, it. There's sort of a sequence of events that's hard to describe and not very interesting to describe if you haven't seen the movie. But you sort of follow the baseball traveling. There's a baseball that's thrown out a window, and then it's retrieved and then it's brought back to a desk and there is a discovery that is made that is adjacent to the baseball. And then maybe there's also some larger significance to the fact that it is a baseball at all, as opposed to some other object that could have been on that desk and what that says about the relationship in the movie. So there's some baseball content there, and there's some baseball content in Wake Up Dead man, the new third Knives out movie. And I haven't been moved to talk about it that much because there's not actually that much to say about it, I don't think think because usually when we talk at length about the baseball in a baseball movie or a baseball show and you know, by baseball movie, baseball show, I mean by the effectively wild Sam Miller definition where there's any baseball in it at all. I think Sam argued that Knives out was an actual baseball movie. Most people would not agree with that. But there is a lot of baseball in Wake Up Dead Man. It's just that it's fine, it's done well. I have no notes almost. And so basically it's. You just see some baseball scenes. You see some clips of baseball broadcasts in various scenes and there's even one scene where baseball is like front and center and, and they're syncing up some baseball footage with some footage of something else that happened. Nico Horner is prominently featured on screen briefly.

[Ben Limburg]

Interesting.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. And. And Kyle Tucker. Cubs Kyle Tucker. And the impressive thing about it, and kudos to director Rian Johnson and the care that was clearly paid to this, it is actually fairly accurate because often when you see clips of baseball broadcasts on shows or movies, if you actually pause and zoom in and figure out when did this come from, if it is a real game, which it isn't always, but if it is, it's often like a juxtaposition of different games kind of just jumbled up and, and you know, different parts of the game and it's all out of sequence. I wrote an article about this way back when with Baseball Prospectus that was I think also syndicated at Deadspin about an episode of the TV show Elementary, another detective show, Sherlock Holmes show. And I talked about this half inning that you see in that episode of elementary and it's all over the. The place really. It's like the actual footage that you're watching comes from like different times and different games and you know, they don't expect anyone to care or pay very close attention to it. But in Knives out it, it actually holds up pretty well and, and the time passes in the movie and the clips that are shown in those scenes sync up quite well with when the movie is supposedly taking place. And it's all pretty impressive and, and good attention to detail. Cuz there's this groundskeeper character in the movie who's played by Thomas Hayden Church and he seems to be a Cubs fan. Cuz like basically every time you see him he's watching a Cubs game and he just has a, A Cubs game on tv usually on like A old school sort of grainy crt.

[Ben Limburg]

You're getting. You're getting t terr than I want to know.

[Meg Relly]

Okay. Yeah. But, yeah, that's all you need to know. There's some baseball, and it plays a part in the plot. I wouldn't say it's like a integral part. There's one part that's semi pivotal maybe that's kind of baseball connected, but I appreciated it. You know, Ryan Johnson, he's a Dodgers fan. I believe he's baseball guy and clearly really paid attention to this. And yeah, there have been various people online on Reddit and Cubs blogs who have scrutinized this closely and have done that legwork. So we kind of don't need to.

[Ben Limburg]

To.

[Meg Relly]

And. And we got a very detailed email from listener Stephen, and I want to respect Stephen's legwork. So maybe in the outro for anyone who's interested. It's not very spoilerish either, but it's probably more spoilerish than. Than you want me to get into right now, so I'll save that for after. If you've seen the movie and. Or when you do and you want.

[Ben Limburg]

To revisit that, I definitely want to talk about it because, you know, I love a good baseball flick and I am looking forward to it, but I just. He. I keep getting these emails and I'm like, please stop. Please stop. Please, please.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, please.

[Ben Limburg]

And I don't. I don't. As soon as I can tell that it's a. About that, I close it right out, you know, as opposed to all the other emails, I answer directly.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I just. I just want to compliment it because it's a job well done. And so, yeah, yeah. Usually when people are like, you got to talk about this. It's, you know, something screwy, something wrong. And then we say, why didn't you ask us? And we could have helped, but I don't think we could have helped that much. This is fine.

[Ben Limburg]

I. I have a lot of confidence in Rian Johnson as a filmmaker in terms of detail stuff. And also we know, for instance, that his wife, Karina Longworth, is a huge Dodgers fan. So I think there is a general baseball appreciation sort of permeating his sphere that would make me think he would be a reliable, a safe pair of hands for that sort of thing. Maybe unlike Jorge Polanco at first base. But we will see.

[Meg Relly]

See, Right.

[Ben Limburg]

Brought it full circle.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. And if you have a movie that's sort of an homage to the locked room mystery genre, then you want attention to detail. That's pretty important. So you got to bring that to the baseball, too. But it's always heartening to see baseball just pop up where it doesn't necessarily need to be. And we got some emails I may have mentioned in a House of Dynamite, the Katherine Bigelow film from a couple months ago. Ago. Yeah, it's the one about like there's an ICBM and there's a nuclear scare and how will various parties react? And it's all very sobering and scary.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, I deemed, I deemed that not good for Meg's anxiety and haven't watched it.

[Meg Relly]

Probably, probably a good call. But there's an extremely just kind of tangential and random baseball reference in that where Tracy Letts's character. So Tracy Letts plays General Anthony Brady, Combatant Commander of the United States Strategic Command. And multiple times in the movie he just has an aside about Francisco Lindor. And he'll just be like, did you see that play Lindor made last night, like for no apparent reason? And I have no problem with that either. He, he refers to like seeing Lindor make some amazing play in an All Star game. My only note really is that he pronounces it two different ways. So he says Lindor once and then he says Lindor another time. Oh, yeah, you do hear both of those. I don't generally, I guess people pick one.

[Ben Limburg]

Francisco.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, it's. It's Lindor. But I do hear right Lindor sometimes. But I don't know if the same person would say it both ways at different times.

[Ben Limburg]

Maybe say the chocolate one. Lindor isn't the same way. Don't you say Lindor like the chocolate?

[Meg Relly]

I would, yeah. I don't have a little called upon to say it as often.

[Ben Limburg]

Too many white chalk chocolate ones of those in their mix pack. I'm not a white chocolate person. It's not chocolate.

[Meg Relly]

Controversial anyway, but it's not, you know, there's no cocoa.

[Ben Limburg]

There's no cocoa in it. It's.

[Meg Relly]

If you want.

[Ben Limburg]

I mean, there might be some, but it's mostly, yeah, it's mostly almond extract that gives it the flavor and you.

[Meg Relly]

Not be pedantic about chocolate composition. But two, two big Netflix movies late this year from renowned directors and both have baseball in them. And it's just, it's always nice to see baseball just appear. And it furthers my belief that baseball is overrepresented in popular media and that even though we don't see many certainly wide release, big budget true blue baseball movies anymore, we do see just A lot of baseball appearing in non explicitly baseball movies just because of like what it signifies to the filmmakers, to the Oscar audience, to the characters. There's just something to that national pastime idea that's still kind of clinging to the national consciousness at this stage.

[Ben Limburg]

It tends to have like cocoa butter, but not cocoa solids. Right. Okay. So I'm just heading off, I'm just heading off the emails. Okay. Okay.

[Meg Relly]

Yep.

[Ben Limburg]

Everybody relax. If you like it, I'm so happy for you. It's not for me, though. It's too sweet for me. Mac. It can be whatever, whatever you want it to be. Too sweet. Sweet enough, not sweet enough. Who knows, maybe you got a real. I'm just saying for me personally, too sweet for you. Your own adventure.

[Meg Relly]

Fair enough. And the last thing I'll say is that comebacks have been on my mind with all man Rivers, Philip Rivers, returning to the field for some reason.

[Ben Limburg]

Are we gonna talk about this or are we.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, just for a second.

[Ben Limburg]

Actually, let me rephrase this question. Question. Which version of me do you want to talk about this with? Do you want to talk about this with the version of Meg.

[Meg Relly]

Fan Meg or. Right.

[Ben Limburg]

Or a, a more hinged individual? That's an important.

[Meg Relly]

Well, I, I'm bringing it up mostly as a peg to talk about baseball so we don't have to dwell on all the football implications. But if you, if you need to get anything off your chest as a Seahawks fan, have. Having Philip Rivers go up against you after having been out of the game for five years and coming back at age 44 as a grandpa and you know, having a credible performance on Sunday for Indianapolis, just, you know, he, he was around.

[Ben Limburg]

Did you say incredible?

[Meg Relly]

Credible. Credible.

[Ben Limburg]

Okay.

[Meg Relly]

Not incredible.

[Ben Limburg]

Okay.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah.

[Ben Limburg]

Okay.

[Meg Relly]

It wasn't, I mean, it was kind of incredible that he came back on some level.

[Ben Limburg]

Yes. But I, I was like, I, I. Okay, we're, we're on the same page so far.

[Meg Relly]

Yes. Yes. And ultimately the Seahawks, they triumphed. It was perhaps closer than one would have imagined with the Colts down to their third string quarterback who was recently retired for a very long time, but knew the system, came back to his old team and, and fit right in to the scheme and almost, almost actually won one, which was a, you know, they're pretty important. Like the Colts are now eight and six. They're, they're in the playoff hunt. This is not like some sort of stunt or feel good story. This is just like they actually need a quarterback and they're hoping that Phil Rivers, who was pretty good the last Time he played, but it was a long time ago and he's, you know, kind of a, a bubble. Hall of Fame guy. Probably should be a Hall of Famer. Probably will be at some point, but you know, showcasing my football knowledge. Try not to brag.

[Ben Limburg]

To be clear, I don't have a, I don't have a developed take on Philip Rivers, hall of Famer or not. You're just jumping. This is a fraught discourse.

[Meg Relly]

Fraught discourse. And he's very much in the. He's like, he never won a Super bowl until now. You know, he has another chance. Never, never an All Pro, never an MVP any.

[Ben Limburg]

But you know, you know what an All Pro is.

[Meg Relly]

That's crazy. I've learned a lot. The point is, I didn't even mean to talk this much football. I mean, maybe he was too close for comfort that it was a two point margin for your Seahawks managing to triumph over the 44 year old reclamation project QB. Here I.

[Ben Limburg]

Okay, here, I'm gonna. Give me, give me. You can set a timer if you want, then you can cut me off. I think the Seahawks have a really fantastic defense. I think that it was, it was there to backstop them yesterday. I have tremendous concern about their ability to move the football of the Leech and I'm not enjoying it. I do wish that they had like a viable run game because it's a real problem, their inability to, to run the ball. And look, I'm, I'm not one of. I'm not a Luddite in this way. I understand you want to be able to pass the ball, but you sometimes you do have to be able to run it a little bit. That Colts defense is good, but winning a game with no touchdowns, that's got to make everybody very nervous. What I, what I really think is that the Mariners have made me the saddest about sports, but the, the Seahawks have made me feel the most insane. And that was definitely true yesterday. I want people to know I was not really young. Yelling at the Colts. I did, I did invite Philip Rivers to throw a pick and he, he waited a long time, but he did it right at the end when, boy, was it useful. But I was mostly saying things to the Seahawks that I'm glad they couldn't actually hear because they were pretty rude, if I'm being totally candid. And I was in a real grumpy mood as a result of it. It also is my fault though, because my dad went to that game and he sat in our seats and, and he's been very Busy with work and travel lately, so I. I didn't know if he had seen the Philip Rivers News, so I was like, oh, boy, you're going to see a real show. And then he did, in a way. In a way. I texted him at halftime. I'm like, I'm really sorry. I think this is maybe my fault. I don't know, man. I don't. I don't know. Is. Is that the. Is that the performance that you want to see from the Seahawks right before they face the Rams on Thursday on a short week? I mean. I mean. I mean, Ben. Ben, is it. No, no, no, not really. It's not. But I did appreciate the part of Philip Rivers performance where he just fell down for no reason. I was like, that's real relatable, dude. But it's good. It's good that the Seahawks won because, you know, Philip Rivers, I think, has his fans, and there have been times in his career where he's been like, really? He was a really good quarterback. But when he's, you know, older than me and, like, kind of beating my football team. Yeah, I'm in dangerous territory. I'm, like, real close to. To posting about how, like, he endorsed Rick Santorum for president and what I imagine his views on abortion are. So it was a rough day for me. You're like, didn't you get to relax this weekend? No, Ben. Even the parts that should have been relaxing, very stressful for no reason at all. I'm sitting here and the Rams are winning and the nice Niners are winning, and that makes no sense. Anyway, I think I've said enough about football.

[Meg Relly]

Seahawks corner. I guess it recalls my old.

[Ben Limburg]

You didn't answer the question. And so I just defaulted to the mode that was most natural, which is the one that makes me want to eat my own hair.

[Meg Relly]

Well, it recalls my old colleague Kevin Clark's evergreen tweet from before Philip Rivers's first retirement, which was, the Seahawks have literally never played in a normal game.

[Ben Limburg]

Never.

[Meg Relly]

And this certainly wasn't one. But the point. Point wasn't just that Philip Prisoners came back and returned to the NFL. And salute to Lindsey Vaughn also, who is also undertaking a comeback of her own. Downhill skiing legend won a race and came close in another one. Tuning up for the olympics in her 40s as well. So 40 somethings are coming back. And I was thinking of who could come back in MLB who would be kind of equivalent to this. And I was not the only person thinking this because there was a very powerful popular post in our Facebook group asking what would be the present day baseball equivalent of the Philip Rivers comeback. And there were many responses to that. Of course, you could just have Rich Hill, who is older than Philip Rivers and has not yet retired, just keep on trucking. But if we were going to have a baseball equivalent, I think one complication so I, I don't think they have to be as old as Philip Rivers because baseball players, they often do tend to play longer. And so if you're coming back after an equivalent time, I'm not going to hold it to the exact age range exactly. But I was thinking of who would be sort of similar, who would evoke a similar feeling. A player who's been out of the game roughly as long as Philip Rivers, who was maybe roughly as accomplished as Philip Rivers, doesn't necessarily have to be as old, but sort of baseball adjusted agency age. And there are precedents for this in baseball. Of course, there are plenty of people who've come back after long layoffs. Lots of pitchers have done it. You know, Jose Rijo and Dave Stieb and Jim Bouton and Jim Palmer at least attempted it. So I was thinking of, yeah, who could come back now? And some of these ideas were proposed as well by listeners, Facebook group members, Discord group members. So I think one, one important condition I think is that you have to, to either be a Hall of Famer already or be on the verge of. So you have to have been out long enough to maybe have appeared on a ballot or be about to appear on a ballot because Rivers was a semi finalist for the hall of Fame this year, like he was still in the running. So now that clock is reset. So I think Jim Palmer attempted to come back after he was in the hall of Fame. So, you know, that happens. But, and Tony LaRussa. Right, but, right. Cole Hamill was one name that came up. I think if he, he last played in 2020 also, and he did have a comeback attempt after that and he didn't complete it, he didn't make it back. But if he were to come back now, having just hit the hall of Fame ballot for the first time and you know, kind of a borderline hall of Fame type, I think that would be a pretty good one. And there's kind of a, a pitcher quarterback shack equivalent, maybe someone proposed Felix, who, you know, is, is younger obviously.

[Ben Limburg]

But older than me, though. Importantly older than me.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, important. It's true. He will turn 40 in April.

[Ben Limburg]

I don't turn 40 until June, so he's older than me. That's how Time works.

[Meg Relly]

Felix has been out since 2019, I guess. 2020. He opted out during the pandemic a lot, although his performance in 2019 perhaps opted him out. But if he were to come back after a long layoff, you know, maybe. Maybe the. The long rest helped his arm and suddenly he came back firing or something, that would be kind of an equivalent one, I think, maybe even a bigger name, if anything. Who else would fit? Oh, I was thinking Buster Posey. Can you imagine, like, say. Say the Giants need catching help.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, like 20. Bailey gets hurt or something. Yeah.

[Meg Relly]

And Buster Pobo says, I'll strap on the gear again and again. He. He's only 38, right. But he's been out, so he didn't play in 2020 either, but he did play in 2021. And the thing about Posey is that he was good his last year. Like, he was still a really good player last time we saw him in the majors. And then he retired and he was raising twins and wanted to spend more time with his family. Family and. And then, I guess, wanted to be a pobo. So he's busy. But if. If we had the. The post playing the player to Pobo to player transition, that would be pretty spectacular. You know, it'd be tough, I guess, for a catcher to come back in his late 30s after a long layoff, but given his. And he'll be on the hall of Fame ballot next year and might just sail right in to Cooperstown. But, yes, that would be a good one, I think, if. If he managed to come back at this stage because his. It's not like a enforced injury retirement that I'm looking for. Like, Buster Posey, he walked away. You know, no one forced him out of the game or anything. And so if he came back of his own volition was just like, I think I can still play. We haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. So, yeah, give him a chance. He's. He's has one of the best final seasons ever, ever for a baseball player, especially a player who, you know, wasn't forced to quit for some reason.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, I think that that's right. I think that that one would be. Plus, it would be the most fun story. It would just be the most. He's like, I gotta get down to the field. Yeah, I'm envisioning him, like, mid game, and I know that from a roster perspective this wouldn't be allowed, but I'm just imagining him, like, up in the suite. He starts to, like, loosen his tie. He's like, I Gotta go get the gear on. I gotta go get it on. Go get it on is not what I meant, but you know what I mean?

[Meg Relly]

Imagine if he played for a different team. He's like, I'm leaving, leaving the, the Giants and I'm signing with some other rival team because they've offered me a roster spot or something.

[Ben Limburg]

Right? Yeah, that would be, it would be, I mean it would be quite surprising. It's just like, what am I supposed to do now? Like I just got here.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. Or he like recused himself. He's like, well, it would be sort of self dealing if I gave myself a roster spot with the Giants. So I want to do this legitimately. I don't want to hire myself as a catcher, but if, if some other team wants to bring me back, then I'll do it. Who else? Albert Pujol Unretiring was mentioned as one. He hasn't been gone as long but he has the age at least going for him. And you know, I wouldn't want him to unretire because we got our, our fill. I think of old pools. I think we saw enough of that. And also he had the storybook final ending with the Cardinals and it's, it's tough to improve on that.

[Ben Limburg]

Well, and he seems quite committed to the, to the idea of managing. Like I really do think that he is going to, to try to make a run at that. You know, he's managing. He's definitely. I, I think he's serious about that. You know, he's going to manage some games in the doctor and he's. Isn't he managing their WBC team?

[Meg Relly]

Yeah, I'm thinking of. Yeah, I guess Yachty would be another possibility. Another guy who has some managerial aspirations and has been out of the game. Well, he was a teammate of pools as the 2022 Cardinals, so that would be one. Zach Granke. He just, he just kind of slipped out. You know, he hasn't been gone as long. Obviously he pitched in 2023, but has he even officially announced his retirement? I mean he clearly is retired and has like thrown out first pitches and stuff. But yeah, I don't even know if he filed the papers perhaps, but I'd like to see him come back. That would be kind of nice. I miss Zach Granke. And you know, people were joking about Jamie Moyer. Bring back Jamie Moyer. Right. And there's like the famous old players who, you know, Satchel Page and Minnie Minoso and others who just kind of played forever and kept kind of coming out of Retirement partly as a gimmick and partly because they could still perform. But yeah, I'm. I'm interested in another one who is proposed. Robinson Cano. That'd be kind of fun because he's about to be on the hall of Fame ballot right next year. Is it? And, yeah, and, you know, obviously I don't think he'll get in because of the PD stuff, but yeah, he, he, he was a pretty productive old player until 2022, and then he was not anymore. But for what? For a while there he was aging pretty well, and then he missed all of 2021 with the suspension and then came back and didn't seem to have much left in 2022 and then has gone on to star in the Mexican League. So good for him, I guess. But yeah, someone like that, or if CC Sabathia had come back this past year or something, that would be kind of fun. Or Ichiro. You know, Ichiro would come back if they let him. He's still, he's still around, he's still in uniform, he's still practicing and staying in shape. So he's showing up at random games in Japan. So, yeah, Ichro would be. Would be happy to suit up again, I think, if anyone offered him the chance.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's sort of shocking. It's sort of shocking that he's not.

[Meg Relly]

Yeah. Okay. Bartolo cologne was a popular suggestion as well, just because it sort of seemed like he was. Was ageless for a while there. Lots of Julio Franco jokes as well. Ra, Dicky, etc. I'll link to the thread if anyone wants to see it. But if anyone has other suggestions for someone who realistically could come back and sort of fits the profile. Joanna Cespedus, you know, not quite that caliber of player, but has been gone a similar, similar length of time. Oh, I could come back. I'm always, you know, Venus Williams comes back back. There was some buzz about Serena returning. Doesn't seem to be happening at least as of yet, but people hope that it happens and so many times it's a disappointment and you don't actually want to see them playing at that age. And there's a reason why they walked away or it's sort of sad and, oh, they can't let go of their glory days or something. But, you know, sometimes it's sort of sweet. So good for Philip Rivers. Taking the fields, not getting demolished. Throwing an actual touchdown down as a grandpa.

[Ben Limburg]

Yeah.

[Meg Relly]

Makes us, Makes us all feel young.

[Ben Limburg]

Sure. Or very stressed, depending on your perspective.

[Meg Relly]

Okay. Meant to mention earlier that when we talked about the Royals outfield situation, we didn't specifically call out Lane Thomas. I don't think on this episode we mentioned his acquisition on a past episode he might help too. I don't know that either he or Collins can be an everyday player for the Royals or a good everyday player, but when you're starting from such a low point, every little bit of helps. Collins was kind of the Chad Patrick of position players, if that makes any sense. On the brewers this past season. Important contributions, but by the end his role was reduced and he significantly outperformed his batted ball stats. So there could be some regression coming there. And yeah, I generally bet on Brewer's player development over Royals player development, though the Royals have had their successes primarily with pitchers. Also since we were talking about the Rangers and ex Rangers could have included in our transaction rankings roundup a few Rangers editions Danny Jansen, Alexis Diaz, Tyler Alexander. But I don't know that I can muster much commentary about Danny Jensen versus Kyle Higashioka. Also, since I'm paying attention to football now, gotta say, on the nominative determinism front, tough to beat a running back named Kenneth Gainwell. I mean, come on. Okay, I promised I would read listener Steven's email about Wake Up Dead Man. This is spoiler light, I would say, and if you haven't seen the movie and have no interest in the movie, it might not mean much to you. But I appreciated the research research. So I will share this. It's not going to ruin the movie or anything if you're worried, but Steven says I was super excited to watch the new entry in the Knives out series, Wake Up Dead man. But Chicago Cubs second baseman Nico Horner was maybe the last person I expected to get an extended close up of in this movie. Seeing various shots of Cubs games sent me down a rabbit hole both as a Cubs fan and someone who obsesses over meaningless sports details in movies. This is just reminding me that I had on a guy who does sports clip sleuthing on TikTok or used to Ian Arugo on episode 1928 we talked about how disjointed some of these clips can be. Back to Steven's email. I have to give this movie a ton of props for using date accurate baseball footage based on when the events of the movie are happening. When Father Judd first visits Sampson at his groundskeeper home, Sampson is watching an August 7, 2024 broadcast of the Cubs versus the Twins. The Cubs win 8 to 2. This makes sense as the scene takes place a couple weeks into Judd's time in Chimney Rock. He first arrives there in late July of 2024, nine months before Good Friday of 2025. On April 18th we got to see Drew Smiley pitching for the Cubs with brief glimpses of Willie Castro, future Cub, and Jose Miranda hitting for the twins. The other two games we get footage of are from April 18th, Good Friday and 19th of 2025. Both are Cubs versus Diamondbacks games with the Cubs winning 13 to 11. This being the game where the teams combined for 16 runs in the 8th inning and I missed the ending to attend my church's Good Friday service. Thankfully, less murder happened at that service and 6 to 2 respectively. We see less footage from the Saturday the 19th game, just shots of Kyle Tucker facing off against Diamondbacks pitcher Zach Gall. It's going to be very weird to have Kyle Tucker, who was traded to the Cubs in his walk year and will assuredly sign with some team other than the Cubs this offseason season, forever memorialized as a Cub. In this movie we see more footage from The Good Friday April 18 game, which Sampson had taped on VHS and Judd Blanc and the police watched together in the station synced up with the Good Friday church service. First we see Cubs left fielder Ian Happ hit a single up the middle to lead off the bottom of the first against Diamondback starter Corbin Burns. The very next shot where the most in movie screen time is spent and replayed jumps forward to a second inning at bat between Nico Horner and Burns that ends winds and a Horner fly out to left. The weird thing about this footage is that what we see is a specific close up angle filmed from the first base camera well of Horner adjusting his equipment and stepping into the box. This shot is from the Diamondbacks broadcast rather than the Cubs broadcast. I watched both broadcasts of this at bat to confirm Samson, who never explicitly says he is a Cubs fan, but we have to assume so since he canonically watches three Cubs games, has traditional rabbit ear antennae set up to get the bright broadcast, but this seems almost impossible since the film is set in a fictional town in upstate New York. I call BS on getting a local Diamondbacks baseball broadcast through these means. Finally, we see footage that plays directly after the shot of Horner of Cubs catcher Carson Kelly hitting a home run that occurs after the end of Horner's at bat and after a PCA double. No time passes in the movie, but we've skipped a couple minutes forward for no reason in the game footage. Lastly, on the shot I love seeing Mila Kunis's police chief Came character lean into the screen and say damn. She is clearly talking about the latest fact they've discovered in the case. But if you've been focusing on the baseball instead, it looks like she's impressed by the power display put on by the Cub's backup catcher. It was fun finding out that the filmmaker sought out footage from games that matched the internal timeline of the movie. Even though receiving the Diamondbacks broadcast in New York seems unrealistic and the clips from the Good Friday game bounced around, I'm still happy with the baseball representation here here. Hopefully you enjoyed more baseball and movies. And Wake Up Dead man can join the ranks of classic baseball movies like Night Swim. So yeah, it's not perfect, but by the standards of clips of sporting events used in movies that are not themselves sports movies, pretty solid. A blogger at Bleed Cubby Blue also noted that in at least one of the screenshots there's no score bug, so maybe isn't exactly what you would see on tv. Oh, and also there's a Joseph Gordon Levitt cameo. He always appears in Ryan Rian Johnson movies, even if he's not in the main cast. Here he cameos as a baseball announcer, so that was a nice touch too. And by the way, while we are recognizing directors who are big baseball fans, RIP Rob Reiner Just a brutal loss, both literally and figuratively. Big baseball fan, Dodgers season ticket holder for many decades, also appeared in a 2006 animated baseball movie called Everyone's Hero, in which he played Screwy, a sarcastic, wisecracking talking baseball who bickers with his counterpart Darlin. Darlin, played by Whoopi Goldberg, was a loyal but egotistical talking baseball bat owned by Babe Ruth. I must have missed everyone's hero, and I probably will not be watching it now. Far from the most celebrated work in the life of Rob Reiner, a man who made many classics. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com effectively wild and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks, as have the following five listeners Orion Alfred Western, Alex Harrison, Julie Heb, and Russ Hull. Thanks to all of you, Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only, monthly bonus episodes, shout outs at the end of episodes, playoff live streams, personal personalized messages, prioritized email answers, discounts on merch, and ad free fangraphs memberships and so much more. Check out all the [e-mail] effectivelywild if you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments or intro and outro themes to podcastangraphs.com you can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music and other podcast platforms. You can join our facebook [e-mail] group effectively wild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at R Effectively Wild and you can check the show notes in the podcast posted fan graphs or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We'll be back with another episode soon. Talk to you then. If baseball were different, how different would it be? And if this thought haunt your dreams, well, stick around and see what Ben and Meg have to say. Philosophically and pedantically, it's Effectively Wild.

[Ben Limburg]

Effectively Wild.