Effectively Wild Episode 2425: The Manfred Mantra

Summary

Effectively Wild Episode 2425: The Manfred Mantra
FanGraphs Baseball Podcast | Hosts: Ben Lindbergh & Meg Rowley
Date: January 10, 2026

---

Main Theme & Episode Overview

This episode digs into several layers of current baseball news and issues, spanning from quirky transaction stories to deep dives on Rob Manfred’s recent comments about his legacy, MLB’s broadcast rights tumult, CBA negotiations, and the intersection of sports, culture, and inclusivity. The tone is insightful, irreverent, and occasionally playful, with both hosts offering measured skepticism and curiosity throughout.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Quick Hitters & Follow-Ups (00:44–09:17)

• Ryan Fitzgerald & James Outman “Doppelgänger” Transaction Saga

  • Recap of the transaction chain that led Ryan Fitzgerald (noted lookalike of James Outman) from the Twins to the Dodgers through a series of waivers—a “Rube Goldberg sequence” touching on DFA practices (01:12–02:26).
  • “This could have just been a three team trade. That's essentially what it was unfolding over a couple of weeks.” —Ben (02:16)

• Minor League Free Agent Draft & Akil Badu Eligibility (03:05–05:14)

  • Clarified by listener Sage: Badu was ineligible for the draft due to a specific MLB free agency technicality (03:13–04:26).
  • Discussion about complexity vs. simplicity in using existing lists for future drafts.

• Players Retiring as Coaches, Then Returning to Play (05:34–09:17)

  • Recent examples: Gabe Kapler, Daniel Bard, Luis Soho, and Eric Campbell.
  • Amusing detour into the “existence” of Sea Unicorns as mascots, and Campbell’s baseball/softball business “Lumber to Leather.”
  • “He never actually served as manager of the Norwich Sea Unicorns because a better offer came along, I guess.” —Ben (08:11)

---

2. Rob Manfred Speaks: Legacy & The “Manfred Mantra” (09:48–17:12)

• Retirement Commitment (10:24–11:06)

  • Manfred reiterates he will retire in January 2029; expresses belief in term limits.
  • Quote: “I've told them, the owners that, and I'm going to stick to it. I'll be 70. It is enough.” —Manfred, quoted by Ben (10:48)

• On His Legacy and Focus on Fans

  • Manfred’s self-described daily mantra: "Remember, it's about the fans." (11:18)
  • The hosts both express skepticism about the genuineness or effectiveness of Manfred’s claims (“Do you think he does that? The Rob Manfred meditation minute at the end of the beginning of each day, hold my calls. It’s my minute to remember that it’s about the fans.” —Ben, 11:35).
  • Meg tempers criticism: “I do think that he thinks about it. Do I always love his answers? No ... but I'll allow for the possibility that he's thinking about some of this stuff.” (12:03)

• Fan Interests vs. Revenue (13:19–15:44)

  • The hosts dissect the intersection and occasional conflict between focusing on fans and maximizing profits.
  • “You can love the game and still have some goof ass ideas about [how to] improve it.” —Meg (16:15)

Notable Segment

• The “Manfred Mantra” and Host’s Skepticism (16:03–17:12)
  • Playful roasting of Manfred’s supposed daily mindfulness minute.
  • “Remember, it's about ... the Manfred mantra, the man for mantra.” —Ben (16:09)

---

3. MLB Broadcasting Turmoil & Streaming Future (17:13–29:51)

• Collapse and Restructuring of RSNs (17:13–21:33)

  • Nine teams terminate contracts with Main Street Sports, repercussions echo problems seen with Diamond Sports/Bally Sports (18:00–19:32).
  • Main Street’s failure prompts speculation about MLB absorbing more local broadcasts (19:04–20:17).
  • Discussion of the end of MLB's discretionary fund for teams losing RSN revenue (20:35–22:06).
  • Meg: “If you are out of luck, then you’re out of luck. There’s no bailout essentially from MLB.” (21:06)

• Fan Experience, Blackouts, and Streaming (22:19–27:32)

  • Possible benefits for fans: streamlined streaming, local direct-to-consumer offerings.
  • Downsides: market fragmentation, labor negotiation complications.
  • Meg: “I think that people want to watch baseball, and if it’s on, they'll watch it ... But also some of these streaming services, they want inventory ... people watch Cornhole, you know. Ax throwing, which is wild.” (25:23–25:59)

• CBA Negotiations & Broadcast Leverage (27:34–29:51)

  • MLB’s rhetoric about struggling business ahead of national broadcast rights renegotiations seen as strategic self-serving.
  • “It’s useful for everyone to remember one of the incentives that the league... have to get a deal done is that their national broadcast rights are expiring. ... So I’ll be very curious to see how those two things sit next to each other.” —Meg (28:15)

---

4. Free Agent Deadline: The Annual Debate (37:02–44:47)

• Manfred’s Renewed Push for Signing Deadline (37:05–44:09)
  • Recap of Manfred’s argument: concentrated signing window = more buzz, marketing opportunity.
  • Pushback from players and union; Brent Rooker's pointed tweet: “What difference does it make if a guy signs on December 1st instead of February 1st? How does that extra two months negatively affect the experience as a fan?” (38:01)
  • Ben & Meg skeptical a deadline would truly benefit fans or season ticket sales (41:19–44:09).
  • “Is that worth then just radio silence for your sport for the next few months?” —Ben (40:07)

---

5. Schedule Reshuffling: Split Seasons & In-Season Tournaments (44:47–50:08)

• Manfred’s Public Trial Balloons
  • Mentioned consideration of split seasons and in-season tournaments, inspired partly by the NBA Cup (45:12–46:24).
  • Hosts are unpersuaded that split seasons are needed/wanted; “I don't see the appeal of a split season. I'm not sure.” —Ben (48:38)

Notable Quote

• Meg: “Hey, remember the thing that happened under circumstances that sucked? What if we did it but on purpose?” (48:58)

• Manfred’s continued enthusiasm for expansion and divisional realignment—seen as far less controversial.

---

6. Player News: Max Kepler PED Suspension & Arbitrated Salaries (50:31–72:42)

Max Kepler PED Suspension (50:31–53:01)

• Surprised, irreverent reaction to Max Kepler’s steroid suspension.
  • Meg: “It's not funny, but it is in fact deeply funny. It is among the funnier things...” (50:56)
  • “An important reminder, I think, that not all players who take PEDS or steroids are good.” —Ben (51:11)

Tarek Skubal vs. Tigers: Historic Arbitration Filing Gap (54:11–72:42)

• Context: Skubal seeks $32m; Tigers file at $19m—the largest gap ever in an MLB arbitration case.
• Skubal eligible to compare himself to top-paid free agent pitchers due to five years’ service time (60:38–61:08).
• Discussion on file-and-trial philosophy, impact on labor relations, and likelihood of settling.
• Meg’s pragmatic take: “I think that both sides are making decisions that strike me as fairly rational...” (65:31).
• “Back to back Cy Youngs—am I going to sit here and really reach Derek Skubal's resume? That seems like a waste of time...” —Meg (71:34)

---

7. Representation in Baseball: "Heated Rivalry," Inclusivity, and MLB Culture (72:42–94:26)

• Ben reviews the Canadian show Heated Rivalry (about queer hockey romance), and its relevance/contrast to MLB; wonders if a baseball equivalent could ever break through (73:00–76:41).
• Discussion of inclusivity in men’s sports, remaining barriers to MLB players coming out, and MLB’s recent reticence on DEI initiatives.
• Meg: “We have lost ground around this stuff. You're sort of granting the premise that this identity is controversial ... I hope that ... we get to a point where it becomes unremarked upon ... just folks doing their job.” (86:01)
• Ben: “It’s hard not to watch this [‘Heated Rivalry’] and reflect on how things in many respects, haven’t really changed... even though it’s about hockey, to apply that to baseball, which is very similar.” (81:39)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[On Manfred:] I tend not to subscribe to the belief that Rob Manfred hates baseball. I don’t think he’s romantic about baseball in the way that many are.” —Ben (13:19)
• “You can love the game and still have some goof ass ideas...” —Meg (16:15)
• “Hey, remember the thing that happened under circumstances that sucked? What if we did it but on purpose?” —Meg (48:58)
• “I don't know why I'm so amused by this, but I am, Ben. So amused.” —Meg, on Max Kepler PED news (51:57)
• “I know people are exercised about this and I’m as pro labor a gal as you'll find, but ... I don't think that they really lowballed him that much.” —Meg, on Tigers’ arbitration stance (70:27)
• “I hope we serve a similar purpose, although less raunchy.” —Meg, on Effectively Wild as comfort media (93:47)
• “Every day, I feel like I see an article that's, like, the best podcasters are on video. ... Not all of the best podcasters.” —Meg (94:02)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:44 – Quick news: Ryan Fitzgerald transaction saga
• 03:05 – Akil Badu draft eligibility explained
• 05:34 – Player retire/coach/unretire stories
• 09:48 – Ben tees up Rob Manfred’s comments/interview
• 10:48 – Manfred’s retirement pledge
• 11:18 – Manfred’s “fan-focused” daily mantra
• 17:13 – Broadcast/RSN situation: teams drop Main Street Sports
• 21:05 – Discontinuation of MLB discretionary fund for lost TV revenue
• 27:34 – CBA, broadcast rights and MLB’s public posturing
• 37:05 – Free agent signing deadline debate
• 44:47 – Split season/in-season tournament, schedule changes
• 50:31 – Max Kepler’s PED suspension
• 54:11 – Tarek Skubal’s arbitration saga
• 72:42 – Heated Rivalry, Marco culture, and MLB LGBTQ+ inclusivity
• 94:26 – Farewell and editorial closing

---

Final Thoughts

This episode covers a broad tapestry of modern baseball’s oddities and existential questions, from the minutiae of minor-league transactions and arbitration gamesmanship to the big-picture turbulence of media, labor, and inclusivity. Listeners are left with both laughter and plenty to contemplate about the game’s future — both on the field and in the culture.

Signature Signoff:
“It’s almost like we’re ending the episode with a minute to remember that it’s all about the fans, just like Rob Manfred does daily.” —Ben (94:26)

Transcript

[A]

Well, it's moments like these that make you ask, how can you not be horny about baseball? Every take hot and hotter entwining and a butting. Watch him climb big mountain. Nothing's about nothing. Every stitch wet with sweat breaking balls Back door me on Effectively Wild. Can you not be horny? When it comes to podcasts, how can you not be horny?

[B]

Hello and welcome to episode 2425 of.

[A]

Effectively Wild Baseball podcast from FanGraphs, presented.

[B]

By our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberghup, the Ringer, joined by Meg Relly of fangraphs. Hello, Meg.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

Bit of old business to follow up on here. First, we have a move involving Ryan.

[A]

Fitzgerald, who, as we recently learned, is a doppelganger, a lookalike for James Outman. And now they have been separated.

[C]

Oh, right.

[A]

So we just, we learned about this on our stories we missed for the.

[B]

American League, one of our last episodes last year.

[A]

Actually our very last episode last year. And the story for the Twins was.

[B]

That Ryan Fitzgerald and James Outman looked.

[A]

A lot alike, at least facially. And now they have been separated. They were buddies. They were confused by people. People mistook one for the other neighbors. Now the Dodgers have claimed Ryan Fitzgerald, and so I guess they have a type. James Outman, former Dodger. Maybe they thought they were getting James Outman back. But no, they have claimed Ryan Fitzgerald and they actually set this chain of events in motion, this sort of Rube.

[B]

Goldberg sequence of transactions and contraptions that led to Ryan Fitzgerald going to the Dodgers. Because the Dodgers traded Est Ruiz to the Marlins.

[A]

To the Marlins, then prompted the Marlins to designate Eric Wagman for assignment. Right, and then Minnesota acquired Eric Wagman from the Marlins and designated Ryan Fitzgerald for assignment, which led to the Dodgers claiming Ryan Fitzgerald's off waivers from the Twins. So as MLB trade rumors pointed out.

[B]

This could have just been a three team trade. That's essentially what it was unfolding over a couple of weeks.

[A]

But no, they did it via DFAs and claims anyway. Ryan Fitzgerald, James Hauptman, no longer teammates, but still lookalikes.

[C]

There you go. Still looking alike.

[B]

Yes. And another follow up from a episode last week.

[A]

We did the minor league free agent draft, and there was some confusion about the eligibility of Akhil Badu, whom I attempted to draft. And then we realized that he wasn't actually on the Baseball America list.

[C]

He wasn't on there.

[A]

Yeah, we were sort of flummoxed about.

[B]

Why he wasn't because he seemed to meet the description of a minor league.

[A]

Free agent, and it all led to you calling it Much Ado About Nothing, which made it all worthwhile.

[B]

But it was a bit of a tangent and we got an email from listener Sage, who says longtime listener and MLP transactions nerd and as such, especially.

[A]

Fond of your yearly minor league free agent draft.

[B]

I wanted to explain why Akil Badu was not included on the BA list for you to select.

[A]

We may have intuited this, but Sage.

[B]

Says as a player who accepted an outright assignment during the season, he became.

[A]

A free agent after the completion of the regular season. The BA list includes only free agents leaving right after the World Series as.

[B]

The result of their minor league contracts.

[A]

Coming to an end.

[B]

Since Badu's free agency was technically the.

[A]

Result of his outright assignment expiring, he and several other players, I think Alexis.

[B]

Diaz may have been one of them too. The Rangers subsequently signed him. He and several other players get to.

[A]

Leave about a month before other minor league free agents, sometimes called October outrights. You could probably find these players and include them in future drafts if you wanted to, as their free agency elections.

[B]

Are recorded on Baseball America's minor league transaction posts from the end of the regular season through the end of the World Series. And you could combine those lists. Though given the simplicity of the main.

[A]

End of season BA list, I suspect you'll be content just using the big list at the end. But yeah, I guess there are a few guys who slip through the cracks who technically are minor league free agents.

[B]

So maybe if I had played the rest of the draft under protest, we could have appealed to the commissioner. I don't know, maybe the commission would have ruled in my favor. But as I said, because you two were willing to let me get away with it, but I said it wouldn't.

[A]

Really be right because you were working.

[B]

From that list on that list.

[A]

So yeah, if you had known that we could have gone off book, then you could have drafted a Kilpado.

[B]

But for future drafts, I guess it's.

[A]

Something to keep in mind. If we wanted to, we could scour those transactions and come up with a handful of other players.

[B]

We've never done that in the past and we've done this 13 times. So I don't know. Not that we can't be an old pod learning new tricks and sure, we could do things differently. Just because it's always been done that way before isn't sufficient reason to keep doing it that way.

[A]

But yeah, for simplicity's sake, it's probably fine.

[C]

Yeah, I think having just an easy, coherent list that's so nice. There's just no confusion.

[A]

Right. And it's accessible to everyone.

[B]

We can link to it.

[A]

They can all look and see. Yeah.

[B]

So maybe.

[A]

Maybe it's better this way.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And also some other nominations for players who retired, became coaches and then unretired as players, and a few that are more recent.

[A]

So on the last episode we just talked about some 1980s examples, but it.

[B]

Has happened more recently.

[A]

So listener Michael noted that Gabe Kapler managed Double a Greenville in 2007 before returning to the big leagues as a player from 2008 to 2010, he was.

[B]

3 for 11 against John Lester, whom.

[A]

He managed in Greenville. Michael also says, and Webster wrote into us about this too. Daniel Bard also played for Kapler and.

[B]

Later served as a mental skills coach with the Diamondbacks for two seasons before.

[A]

Pitching for the Rockies. And that was a good and well documented story. Daniel Bard's comeback and listener Chris reminds me of an example that I should have remembered. Luis Soho, Yankees legend, True Yankee. In 2003 he unretired and I am quoting from a UPI piece here.

[B]

Luis Soho, who last played in the majors in 2001, this is September 1, 2003, on Monday signed with the New York Yankees for the final month of the regular season.

[A]

And Brian Cashman said he's the best option for us.

[B]

He won't be post season eligible.

[A]

He but he's back. And soho had managed the Yankees Double A affiliate the previous year and was a coach and liaison to the team's Latin American players with the big club, that is, I guess, and he had worked out with the players during batting practice. And then I guess Derek Jeter strained.

[B]

A rib cage muscle and was going to miss some time. And so they said, hey, you're here. You know, it's kind of like the.

[A]

Billy Martin, Chris Chambliss example that I cited on the last pod. So it has happened fairly recently.

[C]

So gotcha.

[A]

Yeah, it's a practice that's still alive and well.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And one more that was submitted by.

[A]

Listener George Eric Soup Campbell. The former Mets player was retired in.

[B]

2021 and had been named manager of.

[A]

The Norwich Sea Unicorns. Who I yeah, I think the Sea.

[B]

Unicorns former affiliated team, but I think.

[A]

They were in a college ball league, the Futures League, at the time and.

[B]

He had been named manager of the Unicorns. The Sea Unicorn. He got a offer from the Mariners, he got a minor league contract from the Mariners and he un.

[A]

Retired. And he never. Yeah, he never actually served as manager of the Norwich Sea Unicorns because a.

[B]

Better offer came along, I guess.

[A]

Like they put out a press release and everything.

[B]

Eric Campbell is our manager. And then the Mariners said, or you could come back with us. And they gave him a minor league deal. And it worked out because he actually ended up making a major league appearance.

[A]

For the Mariners, his first since 2016. And then finally he really retired that July after he was outrighted off of Seattle's roster. But I guess by that point, he had blown the Sea Unicorns opportunity.

[B]

I don't think they.

[A]

They brought him back after he re retired, so.

[C]

Retired.

[A]

Yeah. And according to his Wikipedia page, as.

[B]

Of 2022, Campbell owns and operates Lumber to Leather, a training facility for baseball and softball athletes.

[C]

So Lumber to Leather. So the Lumber isn. Leather.

[A]

You're going from one to. To another, I guess.

[C]

But it's like a full service sort of situation is. Oh, yeah, that could be the implication of that.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. Lumber to Leather, soup to nuts. No pun intended. Yeah.

[C]

Right. Thing and thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't know if he counts.

[A]

Because technically, I guess he didn't actually.

[B]

Coach or manage, but he was supposed to. And then he said, never mind, actually.

[A]

I want to go play Unicorns.

[C]

Sea Unicorns.

[A]

Very different important distinction from land based unicorns. I mean, yeah, I guess important insofar.

[C]

As they exist in different environs, but unimportant in that neither exists at all.

[A]

Neither actually exists. Yes, true.

[B]

Okay. Much to consider. Indeed. All right, well, we do have a bit of news to talk about, even.

[A]

In the absence of major transactions. Ryan Fitzgerald aside, because Commissioner Manfred has obliged by opening his mouth and making some comments about the business of baseball that I figured I would bring up here. So Evan Drelik wrote about some things Manfred said. He was on wfan. He made some comments. He floated some trial balloons.

[B]

Now, I think this was maybe my favorite part. So, first of all, he did reiterate.

[A]

His commitment to quit to stop being commissioner at the end of this term.

[B]

So if anyone was worried that he might have second thoughts, he says, you know, unlike Eric Campbell and his unretirement from managing the Sea Unicorns, Manfred says.

[A]

That he will actually retire in January 2029. So we have three years more of Manfred to go.

[B]

He said, I'm done at the end of this contract.

[A]

I've told them, the owners that, and I'm going to stick to it. I'll be 70. It is enough. You have a certain period of time when you have things that you want to accomplish. You take your best shot, you try to get as much done as possible.

[B]

And then it's sort of time for.

[A]

The next guy with his set of things. And I think that's healthy and good.

[B]

He was asked about his legacy then, and he talked about the highs and the lows, and he sort of deferred and said, it's not for me to.

[A]

Weigh my own legacy, etc. But this was, I think, a fun quote here.

[B]

I hope that people accept the fact.

[A]

That while there were changes that not everybody loved, that what we did and what we continue to do is we listened to our fans and we tried to make the game better for our fans. Every single day when I go to work, I try to take a minute at the beginning of the day and think, remember, it's about the fans.

[B]

Do you think he does that? The Rob Manfred meditation minute at the end of the beginning of each day, hold my calls. It's my minute to remember that it's about the fans.

[C]

Sure. You know, here's the thing. How do I want to phrase this particular barb? There's so much that we can hang on to on Rob, you know, like, we don't need to. I do think that he thinks about it. Do I always love his answers? No, I don't. But I'm willing to allow for the possibility that he's contemplating the question and saying it's all for the fans. I think the best parts of his tenure, the most successful aspects of his tenure, have been around the rules, changes, and a willingness to not be overly precious about some of this stuff, to reverse course where things have not worked out. And so, sure, he's maybe thinking about it again. I don't always love his answer, Ben. You know, I'm not always convinced by his answer, but I'll allow for the possibility that he's thinking about some of this stuff. I don't know if he's doing it in quite those terms every day. Yeah, I want to know. Does, like. Does Rob Manfred know what mindfulness meditation is? Is that, like, a phenomena that is in his orbit? You know, I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, I. I bet he does.

[B]

I tend not to subscribe to the belief that Rob Manfred hates baseball. I don't think he's romantic about baseball in the way that many are. And I don't think he's the best.

[A]

At expressing the greatness of the game and making it something that sounds lovable, but I don't think that he hates it. I consider it unlikely that he would have ended up in this position despite hating the sport. But I think when people say that.

[B]

They are essentially suggesting that he is.

[A]

Not really prioritizing the fans or what's good for the game, that it's about the bottom line. And that is what he is denying here.

[B]

And I guess it's. It's not mutually exclusive for him to remember that it's about the fans, but also want to just make money. Now the next thing he said was you can worry about the money and worry about all the issues that you.

[A]

Got to deal with. At the end of the day, it's about the fans. If you get the fans right, you.

[B]

Get momentum surrounding the sport, which we.

[A]

Are enjoying right now, that you can't buy.

[B]

So it's not as if he is.

[A]

Not trying to make as much money as possible.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

But I think he believes, maybe not unreasonably, that that typically dovetails with what.

[B]

Fans want, making more money. I don't think it always does. Sometimes those things are in conflict and.

[A]

Sometimes it's about a short term play for revenue, which we have taken the league to task for at times, and not taking the long view and trying to expand the tent and all of that.

[B]

But the more fans, the more money, right? The more spending power, the more fans.

[A]

Like the game, the more they will.

[B]

Be willing to splurge on it and.

[A]

The richer the owners will be. So it's not as if he is actively trying to repel fans because in the long term at least, that would not be in the best interests of either baseball as some sort of abstract idea or the people who are trying.

[B]

To profit from baseball. So I think in a lot of.

[A]

Cases, what the fans want and what the league wants, that's aligned.

[B]

And also sometimes what the players want, which is not what the league wants. Right. But you know, I think both fans.

[A]

And MLB want baseball to thrive, but they don't always have the same visions for those things. And when push comes to shove and it's about what will make more money at the expense of possibly turning fans off.

[B]

And there might be times when fans have to be dragged kicking and screaming to certain things and ultimately they will.

[A]

Admit, rob, you were right and we were too hidebound and shortsighted and we didn't like whatever move you tried to make. And now we recognize that this actually.

[B]

Was in the best interests of baseball.

[A]

But yeah, I guess I'm sort of skeptical that there is like a minute at the beginning of the day where he just repeats the mantra.

[B]

Remember, it's about the Manfred mantra, the man for mantra.

[C]

I mostly. And we don't have to linger over long on this. I just don't find the question of does Rob Manfred love baseball to be a particularly fruitful next to so much to, to assess his tenure, right? Because we can't know, right? Like who can know the heart of a, of a man really, you know. And to your point, you can love the game and still have some goof ass ideas about like how to, you know, continue and improve it. So I just, you know, feels like the sort of thing that people kind of get exercised about because they love it so much. And so when he does things that they can't sort of reconcile to their own understanding of what's good for baseball, it's a thing to grab onto. But also I just think we can assess the work he's doing on its own terms and go from there, you know what I mean?

[B]

And a lot of the work he's.

[A]

Doing has to do with broadcast contracts and what the future of baseball on TV and streaming is going to look like.

[B]

And there have been some developments in.

[A]

That arena this week, although not new exactly. It's just a repeat of a past situation with new corporate parents and entities. And it's just the latest little death.

[B]

Rattle in the ongoing death throes of the traditional broadcast model.

[A]

So nine teams, nine MLB teams that had contracts with Main Street Sports have terminated those contracts, though it's possible that some of them will end up working.

[B]

Out new terms with that broadcaster.

[A]

This is the company that operates the FanDuel Sports Network channels. And so the teams are the Reds.

[B]

The Braves, the Tigers, the Royals, the Angels, the Marlins, the brewers, the Cardinals, the Rays. And so they're still talking about what.

[A]

Things will look like. And then there are possible buyers who are swooping in that Main street could be bought out by Dazn or Fubo or other streaming things that sound more like a meme than an actual company.

[B]

But this, this has been going on for a while because a couple years.

[A]

Ago this company was known as Diamond Sports Group, right? And the channels at the time were Bally Sports, right. Different gambling entity.

[B]

And going into 2023, there were, I think 14 MLP teams that had RSN deals with that company.

[A]

And then there was difficulty and they were missing payments and they filed for bankruptcy. And then they emerged from bankruptcy like a Phoenix reborn, only to be missing payments again. And so that's what precipitated this. And Main street has deals with teams in the NBA and the NHL as well. And so a lot of teams, the.

[B]

Rangers launched their own RSN a lot.

[A]

Of teams have been absorbed into MLB's broadcasting and that could again happen here and MLB could have more teams under its umbrella, which it kind of has an eye towards long term.

[C]

I was going to say Rob will be thrilled.

[A]

Yeah, right. He wants to catch them all. He wants to collect all the teams and fans.

[B]

For the most part, consumers don't really.

[A]

Notice in terms of the broadcast quality because often MLB just keeps things running and just. It's the same people kind of making the broadcast, but different people paying them, essentially. But it may have implications for if you want to sign up locally and.

[B]

Blackouts and other things and streaming availability.

[A]

But. But they're all just sort of trying to consolidate everything so that they can package a big national. Hey, you get all the MLB teams and you know, one stop shop. And then as we've discussed, there will be issues with that when it comes to teams that own their own RSNs.

[B]

And have lucrative broadcast deals and may not want to throw in their lot with all these other teams that looking for some sort of solution. So that is going to be one.

[A]

Of the defining issues of the final, if we take him at his word, three years of Manfred's tenure as commissioner.

[B]

So this is just the latest on this, but Main street evidently missed payments to the Marlins and the Cardinals. But one interesting thing here, I think.

[A]

Is that previously there was a bit of a backstop that MLB and the Players association had provided through the discretionary fund.

[B]

The.

[A]

The league discretionary fund where if a team lost its broadcast deal and lost revenue from that, then there was some money. There was like what, 15 million or something like that that was given to that team to try to. Yeah. Make up for that shortfall. And they are not doing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Anymore. So if you are out of luck, then you're out of luck. There's no bailout essentially from mlb, which again, it's all.

[B]

Maybe it's the backdrop to the labor negotiations and, you know, teams crying poor and everything.

[A]

So this could be another thing that they could cite if they're one of these teams that lost its broadcast deal and is not getting that payment from mlb, which was probably not making up.

[B]

For what they would have made if. If things had continued uninterrupted.

[A]

But it was something at least. And now it will not be something. It will be nothing, I guess so. Manfred said, we are not providing financial assistance right now. Yeah, it was up to 15 million each to teams whose local media revenue had declined since 2022 or 2023. And that was in 2020 for the discretionary fund distributions, but they did not reach a similar agreement for 2025 and presumably 2026, at least for now.

[B]

So something to keep in mind as.

[A]

We all wait and hope that games will not be canceled Tennessees and will not be lost. But this is all something that's informing the thinking and the negotiations.

[C]

I'm sure it's interesting because there are definitely parts of the league assuming broadcast rights that can be beneficial to consumers. A lot of these clubs, maybe all of them, but certainly, you know, teams like the Diamondbacks, teams like the Padres now have sort of a in market streaming option that is direct to consumer. So if you live in Phoenix and you want to watch the Diamondbacks and you don't have cable, well great news. You can do Diamondbacks TV or whatever they call it and pay a monthly amount and get streaming rights for the DBACs and you don't have to sort of worry about it. Now I don't know how that piece of it is interacting with ESPN and their sort of MLB TB takeover stuff, but all of that to say, you know, this isn't isn't all bad news. Some of the blackout related issues which I think Manfred is keen to resolve and is really only able to do that when they are acquire rights or reacquire rates. It can help with that. So yay. Good, fine. Terrific. It giving the league sort of an additional cudgel as it gears up for CBA negotiations. Bad. Less than ideal. Not my favorite. There being uncertainty in that space isn't good for the state of those negotiations. I remain optimistic about the desirability of these streaming rights, these broadcast rights generally. I don't think the fact that there have been additional issues with sort of the the Phoenix like entity here making its payment is necessarily an indication that like those those rights aren't attractive, that they're having trouble selling advertising, anything like that. It's like it seems like this company is just bad at the biz and remains over leveraged and hasn't been able to do what it needs to. Which doesn't mean that there won't be individual teams where there are issues like like I don't know how attractive the broadcast rights of the West Sacramento A's are. Although I think what we have learned over the years is that like the from a ratings perspective people watch baseball in the summer. They even watch bad teams play baseball in the summer. Now some of that is and I want to like not overstate the case here, maybe an artifact of well I have linear cable and the Reds are on because they're part of the. My sports package or they're part of my base cable package. So I'll put them on. Would you pay extra? Would you seek out the Reds? I'm picking them because I just remember at one point being like, wow, the Reds, like, really draw, you know, People in Cincy watch the Reds. This was. This was years ago when we never talked about them, you know. Yeah, this was years ago when we never talked about them. People.

[B]

So I'm like, now, where you can't.

[A]

Start talking about the.

[C]

You know, they have some interesting guys.

[B]

So.

[C]

So all of that to say, like, I think that people want to watch baseball, and if it's on, they'll watch it. I think that the sort of conflicting push and pull instincts in the market right now are that versus the potential downsides to that instinct if the viewing experience becomes increasingly fractured, which we've seen. But also some of these streaming services, they want inventory, you know, and they want inventory of life sports. Because people, Ben, people watch Cornhole, you know.

[B]

Sure, yeah.

[C]

Ax throwing, which is wild. Ax throwing. Seems bad to watch that. What if they've hurt themselves? You know? Did I ever tell you that there's a. There's an ax throwing place in the Valley that's right next to an urgent care.

[B]

So good.

[C]

It's so good. It's when you're. It's when you're getting off the highway on the way to Surprise, and I remember us driving by it and I was like, oh, my God, that's beautiful. Like, how smart. Yeah, I. I go out of my way to go to that ax throwing place because, yeah, this gets messed up. The urgent care is right there. So anyway, all that to say that the picture is murky. And also, if it weren't for a weird incentive on the part of the league and owners to play up the, like, the dower potentially dour nature of it going into the CBA negotiations, I still think largely positive. I will be so curious to see how that aspect of it plays out in terms of what they say publicly, because I think it's useful for everyone to remember one of the incentives that the league and owners have to get a deal done. We talk about all the ways in which they don't want one done because they want to get a hard cap and they do want that. But one of the incentives they have to actually get a deal done is that their. Their national broadcast rights are expiring, I think, the season after the CBA the following year, because those deals aren't this just the deals that they just got done with, like NBC Sports and yeah.

[A]

The national ones run through 2028.

[C]

Right, 2028. So it's like, it's not. On the one hand, we have seen them and we saw this in the last round of CBA negotiations talking about, like, how hard a business it is. No one wants baseball and our sad sack game. But that's a weird narrative to advance publicly if you're going to then turn around to ESPN and NBC Sports and all these other networks and be like, well, don't you want our product? Super. A lot. Like, isn't it so valuable? Don't you want to pay us so much money for all of these national rights? So I'll be very curious to see sort of how those two things sit next to each other because I'm sure that they are mindful of the effect that losing games and talking about baseball is this like dying entity that's such bad business will play when they then want ESPN to write them, like, you know, $500 million check or whatever. So.

[A]

I don't know. Yeah, I still don't.

[C]

I still don't know. I still don't know what I think. I still don't know. Like, if I had to put odds on it, we're. I feel very confident we'll get a lockout. Yeah, I don't know. I keep hearing contradictory things from people in the industry about what they think about the, the likelihood of us missing games because there are people who think we will miss some, but not very many. I know at least a couple of people who think we're gonna miss the entire season. I hope that they're wrong because that sounds bad. Yeah. What the hell will we talk about if we don't have for a whole year, Ben? What are we going to talk about? What do you talk about?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. Well, it'd be pandemic style. We'd have to get very into NPB and kbo, cpbl.

[C]

And it wasn't like the part of it that was bad wasn't the watching other leagues. That part was exciting. But also it just threw me further into the strangeness of the year because it's like in order to watch that stuff, you had to be watching it at weird times or watching replays of games you already knew the results of.7. Anyway, I don't know.

[B]

I have more faith in our ability to weather a lockout, an extended work stoppage that cost games, than many baseball.

[A]

Podcasts because we can Always find some sort of nonsense to discuss. But yes, it would be. Would be very rough on. On fan graphs at large.

[C]

That part's true too. My. I'm trying not to think about that one. That part of it too hard. I. I will say one final thought on this and then we can move on. I guess I'm heartened by what sounds like a little bit of self awareness on his part. Rob Manfred is right that he will not get to define the narrative of his legacy. And part of that narrative is gonna be determined by how this CB negotiation goes if he fails to get a deal done. And that's the way that it'll be framed in terms of his legacy. Right. It takes two to tango. There will be mutual two parties. But yeah, if they don't get a deal done and we lose games, I mean, people know when the last strike was, right? They know when we've had seasons shortened. It's part of the narrative fabric of the sport. And we remember who those commissioners were and we'll remember who this one is.

[A]

Yes. Oh, yeah, and he has hailed his own record of games not getting canceled.

[B]

And has been somewhat charitable to himself.

[A]

Because you could argue that 2020, he caused fewer games to be played than might have otherwise, a pandemic notwithstanding. But yes, he has mentioned that as.

[B]

A bullet point when he considers his own legacy. And so, yeah, because of that and.

[A]

Because of his hopes to expand to.

[B]

32 teams, which I'll get to in.

[A]

A second, and because of all this.

[B]

Broadcast stuff, and because of the momentum that the sport seems to have and is perceived to have, I think there.

[A]

Are a lot of incentives not to completely derail that. And so I'm fairly optimistic and bullish.

[B]

As was Jeff Passon when he was on here when you were away. So I. It seems to be more of the majority opinion these days, but there are.

[A]

Certainly people who are more dimorish about it.

[C]

There are, there are detractors. I know some of them. I will say, though, sorry, this is actually the last thought. You know who I don't think cares about Rob Manfred legacy? The owners, I don't think. And ultimately the party that is calling the shots on that negotiation, like, that's who he answers to. And it would be funny if Rob got a rough lesson in what it's like to have a bad boss right at the end there. That'd be funny not in a HAHA way, but in a, you know, humor as twisted sort of way. So anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I.

[B]

Assume that all of this will be.

[A]

Worked out one way or another, all the broadcast stuff. And, and it will be kind of painful, but one way or another it will work out ultimately.

[B]

But I think that one aspect of it that probably isn't really resolvable is that it's just ultimately not going to be as lucrative as it was for the leagues and the broadcasters before, which may or may not be bad for consumers.

[A]

I know that there is this cliche, right, that we have just reinvented cable and that everybody is just, you know, bundling streaming services together and we have now just. But, and there's truth to that. I get why everyone says it, but it's not exactly the same.

[B]

And one way in which it's not.

[A]

The same is that it is just not as lucrative for the makers of TV and the broadcasters as things were during the cable era. And I subscribed to this newsletter, the Entertainment Strategy Guy. It's a former streaming exec who, who writes about the streaming industry. Interesting stuff. And in one of his recent additions he linked to some research about this and some figures. And so evidently in the old TV ecosystem, and it's not like linear cable based TV is dead or anything, there's still many people who subscribe, but it's dwindling slowly.

[B]

You know, the cord cutting pace has slowed, but it, it's still proceeding. So in the old TV ecosystem, evidently consumers spent 171 bucks per household.

[A]

And in the streaming era that's down to only 37.

[B]

And that's going to converge.

[A]

And for one thing, I guess streaming is only like half of TV viewing ish right now. So if it doubles and becomes all.

[B]

Of TV viewing then you could double.

[A]

That figure and that's 74 bucks.

[B]

And, and yeah, maybe they will continue to raise prices as they have recently, but it's probably not going to get back to that 171 or that inflation adjusted 171.

[A]

And so if you look at it in terms of like revenue per hour of programming, essentially linear television was making about 57 cents for every hour watched, while the streamers now are making max about half that. Not HBO max, just maximum about half that. So for like Disney and Netflix, it's.

[B]

28 cents per hour watched and 27 cents per hour watch. So it's not quite as lucrative and that might be good for consumers. I mean you're not locked into a super expensive cable bundle if you don't.

[A]

Watch sports and you're just subsidizing all.

[B]

The sports watchers, which was the bucket that many people were in.

[A]

You know, if we were sports watchers.

[B]

Then we were benefiting from those folks largesse because they just kind of had to basically foot the bill for everyone else to watch ESPN essentially. But it could work out for some people. You could subscribe to a skinnier bundle.

[A]

Just what you want and you might not have to just pay for stuff that you don't want, but it might not be as lucrative for the leagues and for the broadcasters and everything, which, you know, cry me a river.

[B]

I get it.

[A]

Like no one's really losing sleep over that.

[B]

Fans aren't just in general.

[A]

But there could be some shakeups as the leagues as sports adjust to that new reality of maybe this is not.

[B]

Quite as much of a gold mine as it was before.

[A]

And then what does that mean for just kind of player compensation and how leagues operate and CBA negotiations and all of that. So it's definitely sort of a seismic upheaval time. You know, it's, it, it's not as if the cable model that we had before was just inviolable and permanent. It, you know, maybe that was the exception in the, the long sweep of history, but a bunch of sort of institutions were built on the back of that. And now foundation is toppling then. Yeah, the ground is shaky and everyone's just trying to get their balance.

[C]

I tend to be less concerned with the top line number. I mean like the top line number definitely matters to be clear, but I'm. When I'm thinking about the player compensation piece of it, I'm more concerned with the ratio of their compensation relative to revenue retained by ownership and the league. You know, if the business is less lucrative, it's less lucrative. But that doesn't mean that the share of a smaller pie should itself be smaller, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Manfred talked again about his desire for.

[A]

A signing deadline, a free agent signing deadline which we have hashed out and rehashed so we don't have to go too deep into it. It was just the same sort of thing that he has expressed before. But, but he did say that he is planning to propose it again, that he's going to try to get it done in the CBA negotiations And the usual suspects. Tony Clark and Scott Boris and others.

[B]

Came out and said no, this is bad for players.

[A]

And, and I tend to agree and multi time, effectively. Wild guest Brent Rooker was actually tweeting about this this week too.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And he quote, tweeted someone who was.

[B]

Saying that baseball needs to have a free agent deadline. And he said only addressing this because it has Also been mentioned and floated.

[A]

By league higher ups. This is actually earlier this week, before Manfred's most recent invocation of this idea. But Rooker said this is pretty close to the most anti player idea you could possibly have. And then he, quote, tweeted himself and.

[B]

Followed up after people replied to him and said, this is a genuine question that I'm asking. Based on a lot of the replies, what difference does it make if a guy signs on December 1st instead of February 1st? How does that extra two months negatively.

[A]

Affect the experience as a fan? And I think there's maybe some small ways in which, as a fan, it's nice to know that your team's business.

[B]

Is done and be able to look forward to the season and get excited. And as I've said, it's good for say, drumming up interest in season ticket sales and everything when you can market around the players that you have signed.

[A]

Which is tough to do if you're signing guys in February or something.

[B]

So I think there's something to that. But mostly I think it doesn't matter all that much. And I continue to think that we're just not really factoring in that the off season is a set length and.

[A]

There'S a finite number of moves. And so I just think that having it be really hot and heavy for a short period of time and then just be completely dead after that, I just don't, I don't find that all that appealing.

[B]

And Manfred said, so here's what he said Most recently, from the 1st of.

[A]

December to the 20th, if we had a period in there when all that free agent activity was going on, it's a great marketing opportunity for the game. At a point in the calendar when.

[B]

You'Re not quite in the NFL playoffs.

[A]

The NBA is still kind of early.

[B]

It's a great chance to kind of own some off season weeks, which is crucial to selling tickets, selling season tickets.

[A]

So that's why I was interested.

[B]

So he's probably right on some level.

[A]

That it would become a bigger national story if all of the hot stove was compressed into a period of a couple weeks essentially, and there were just a flurry of frenzy of signings, then.

[B]

Maybe, maybe that would break through to the national press and consciousness in a way that the slow dribble of moves does not. And that's, you know, the winter meetings.

[A]

That historically was kind of like that. A lot of stuff happened there and that was fun and exciting and everything. But is that worth then just radio silence for your sport for the next few months essentially, and, and I don't know, it's like the stove would be entirely turned off. Like there'd still be trades.

[B]

I, I guess like some stuff would happen.

[A]

But I just, I'm thinking of it partly as someone who writes about things and podcasts about things. It wouldn't be better for us, that's for sure.

[B]

Not that MLB needs to consider the needs of effectively wild or fan graphs.

[A]

But maybe that is reflective. I guess it's just that, like, you know, we're sort of for the sickos, so we're covering everything whenever it happens. And so it would be counterproductive for.

[B]

Us to have, have to jam every post and podcast into a compressed period and then have a lot less to talk about.

[A]

But outlets that wouldn't typically talk about baseball at all, maybe this would make some difference for them and they would feel like, oh, we have to talk about baseball, because so much happened all at once. So I, I get that, but it's just there would just be nothing happening for so long that I, I think that trade off really doesn't get discussed enough.

[C]

Yeah, I'm just so skeptical that it matters. I, I think I'd submit even that I'm skeptical of it making a huge difference for season ticket holder sales. I'm sure it makes some difference. And I'm sure that if you, if your club is like signing all the good free agents, but they don't want teams to do that either. As an aside, like, what do you want? What do you, what are your actual priorities? And I, I take his point that, like, once you get into the NFL playoffs, you're kind of swallowed up. But I also think that, like, once that ends and you start getting into pitchers and catchers reporting and all that stuff, like, you're just gonna be excited about baseball. I don't know, I just, I, I, I wonder about the real depth of the pool of fan that's casual enough that it has to get done before spring training start, but potentially serious enough that, like, oh, if they knew, you know, I don't know, that their team had Kyle Tucker in hand, that they'd be like, oh, yeah, let's actually get season tickets. Like, who is that fan? You know, I'm just skeptical of the.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Prevalence of that person. Yeah.

[B]

And then the other thing is, I remember the example that's always cited as.

[A]

Being bad when Bryce Harper didn't officially sign with the Phillies till March 2nd. And that just dragged on and on.

[C]

Machado, I mean, sign with the Phillies.

[A]

But, yeah, but, but when that happened.

[B]

It was Widely reported that there had.

[A]

Been a huge uptick in ticket sales for the Phillies. That the Phillies sold a hundred thousand.

[B]

Tickets right after the news that they had signed.

[A]

Yeah, I'm looking.

[B]

This [e-mail] the Phillies sold roughly 100,000.

[A]

Tickets in the hours after news broke Thursday afternoon that they had agreed to a 13 year, $330 million contract with Harper. They sold roughly another 80,000 tickets Friday.

[B]

So.

[C]

So what are we talking about?

[B]

Right?

[A]

It's.

[B]

That's huge. Right. So I just don't know. So it says. Yeah. To put 180,000 tickets sold over two days into perspective, the Phillies had sold references roughly 200,000 more tickets this off.

[A]

Season than at the same point last off season. And that was based on previous activity. They had signed real Muto and McCutcheon and Segura and Robertson, et cetera.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And then some of these people were buying at least partial season ticket plans.

[A]

So that's super late.

[B]

That's about as late as you can have a major signing like that. And it still led to an enormous wave of ticket sales.

[A]

And then sales of his jersey broke 24 hour records for a launch in any sport.

[B]

It was reported at the time.

[A]

So, yeah, I kind of think maybe the timing doesn't matter as much as the magnitude of the addition.

[C]

Yeah, I think that that's right. And you know, part of the dynamic that is at play, I don't want to overstate the case here. I want to be careful in how I put this. Part of the dynamic that's at play is that owners want to wait these guys out. You know, part of why they sign so late is because they want to wait them out. You know, if you want, guess what, if you want to be able to market off of signing Bryce Harper, I feel bad like giving the Phillies a hard time because they did exactly the thing that I wanted them to do. So but just you know what I mean? Like, if you want to be able to market off of that earlier in the season, we'll blow somebody away then.

[B]

You know, last thing that Manfred mentioned.

[A]

This was on wfan, but and this might be in the vein of when he brought up the golden at bats idea and then sort of walked it.

[B]

Back after it caused this huge flurry of conversation. He said we've talked about split seasons.

[A]

We'Ve talked about in season tournaments. So he said that they've considered major.

[B]

Shakeups to the league's schedule.

[A]

This is, I guess, partly inspired by the NBA Cup.

[B]

And we talked on this podcast, I think, about whether Some sort of MLB equivalent to, to the NBA cup, which makes sense. So they have talked about that. They have talked about split seasons, which.

[A]

I assume he means like 1981, you.

[B]

Know, strike shortened work stoppage, shortened season.

[A]

Where you had essentially a one season, one race and then another second half.

[B]

Of the season with different standings and playoff entrance and everything. And this might fall into the category of.

[A]

We talked about it, we considered it. Sure. They should talk about everything.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They should entertain any idea that's a part of the job of a league and a commissioner is to think about things and reject a lot of them. And it's, you know, kind of mixed.

[B]

Returns in the NBA how much people and teams themselves care about the Cup.

[A]

But Manfred is saying, we do understand.

[B]

That 162Games is a long pole.

[A]

I think the difficulty to accomplish those sort of in season events, you almost inevitably start talking about fewer regular season games. It's a much more complicated thing in.

[B]

Our sport than it is in other sports because of all our season long records. You're playing around with something that people.

[A]

Care about a lot.

[B]

And of course the players might not love having fewer games because they would in theory have lower revenue and maybe smaller salaries. Anthony Randone would sign up for a shorter season. He said as much. I'm sure players would appreciate it on some level if it didn't mean pay cuts. And the question is, would it?

[A]

And if you had less supply of.

[B]

Games, less inventory, then would there be more demand? Maybe you'd sell more tickets and have higher ratings to the remaining games and it would all work out. Who knows, right?

[A]

He also talked again about his desire for expansion and how he would structure it and everything. But the, the split season and the in season tournament idea probably got the most attention because everything else was kind of repeating that he's interested in eight divisions and four teams each and it would be more geographically aligned and you.

[B]

Wouldn'T have teams in the same city.

[A]

In the same division and, and all of that. And I think some amount of geographic realignment absolutely makes sense if you expand.

[B]

To 32 teams and it's less travel.

[A]

For players, less hardship for them. I know it's not super hardship compared.

[B]

To the way most of us travel, but they travel a lot and it's.

[A]

Better for the environment and better for scheduling and better for fans, maybe in the scheduling of games and all of that.

[B]

But since you were just saying people.

[A]

Watch baseball in the summer.

[B]

Right. You know, and those games actually get pretty good ratings even though the regular.

[A]

Season has been devalued by the expansion.

[B]

Of the playoffs, people are still pretty into regular season baseball, and regular season baseball still gets pretty strong ratings in its local markets.

[A]

So I don't know that the impetus is there for this kind of gimmickry and, and you don't have as much.

[B]

Concern about tanking as you had in the NBA.

[A]

Tanking as in resting players and just sitting players or load management and players.

[C]

They call it load management then.

[A]

Yeah, it depends. But yeah, you know, you have people buy tickets to see stars and then those stars don't play. And so they have imposed various limitations on that.

[B]

I just, I don't know that baseball needs it.

[A]

I guess it would make sense that if you're constantly pushing for expanded playoffs, which takes away some of the leverage from the regular season, then you might also seek to prop up interest in the regular season somehow without costing yourself games. Maybe, but I don't see the appeal of a split season. I'm not sure.

[C]

Yeah, I don't get that either where that's coming from. Like, hey, remember the thing that happened under circumstances that sucked? What if we did it but on purpose? You know, Like, I just don't think that anyone has a positive. Also, we have a. You have a break. You have an all star break.

[A]

Like, yeah, it's not long, but yeah.

[C]

Look, I'd love to have an. A designated time where I could go on vacation in the middle of the summer. It's so hot here, Ben, get me out of here. You know, but like, that people don't care about my schedule.

[B]

Yeah, we've entertained ideas about, oh, could you have the World Baseball Classic be in the middle of the season and everyone's seasons would stop and they would do it then instead of in March.

[A]

And talked about the pluses and minuses of that. But yeah, this, the split season idea specifically, that. That's not appealing to me. The in season tournaments, it's not really something that floats my boat particularly, but I could kind of see it, I suppose. But yeah, split season, I don't know. Hopefully that's like.

[B]

Yeah, we talked about it and we.

[A]

Decided it was a bad idea. You didn't say that.

[B]

But I mean, he always mentions things for a reason, I assume, except for.

[A]

The times when he puts his foot in his mouth, which is actually pretty.

[B]

Common, and maybe just says things that he shouldn't have and didn't intend to because a lot of the time it sounds like he didn't really think of how he was going to answer a.

[A]

Question that he was inevitably going to get. Maybe he's improved in that respect. But yeah, I don't know why he brought that up or why that was even considered, but yeah, who knows? Maybe he just sees the future of the sport more clearly than we do.

[C]

Max. Max Kepler got pop for Petey.

[A]

I saw that. That's Kepler.

[C]

That's so funny.

[A]

Steroid suspension.

[C]

I cannot. I. Sorry. It's not funny. It's so funny though, is the thing. Like, it's not funny, but it is in fact deeply funny. It is among the funnier things. I cannot wait. I cannot wait to see the post from Phillies fans about Max kepler and.

[A]

His 9391 last year.

[C]

That's amazing. That's so funny.

[B]

Maybe that's why he decided. Decided to take trend or something similar to that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I've never heard Max Kepler speak. I know that Max Kepler doesn't have a German accent. I want everyone to know that I know that. But in my mind he does.

[B]

He.

[C]

In my mind he speaks with a German accent and so I never need to hear from him because I want to be able to maintain that because that's also funny to me. The ways the. The hoagie mouthed arcane johns that we are gonna see. The. I need. I need the entire. I need all. Oh. Oh, Ben. I. I don't know why I'm so delighted by this. It's not. Don't take PG's is bad. It's. I can't believe Max Kepler is not getting in the hall of fame now. You know, that's.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Real flow. I don't know why I'm so amused by this, but I am, Ben. So amused. I need a long rant in a Delco accent about this.

[A]

I.

[B]

Well.

[C]

Oh boy, what a beautiful.

[B]

An important reminder, I think, that not all players who take PDS or steroids are good.

[A]

In fact, maybe most of them aren't. And.

[B]

And you'd expect a lot of them not to be because maybe that's why they had additional incentive to try to get better. But yeah, we focus on the guys.

[A]

Who get popped who are good, and then we attribute their goodness to what they took. And then we kind of overlook the.

[B]

Fact that a lot of guys who take stuff just aren't actually good, aren't actually powerful, don't actually look like someone.

[A]

You would eyeball and think, oh yeah, that guy. So you never know. Really.

[C]

I. I am. Oh, oh, oh. I want to see all the most unhinged posts. I want them all. I want them all. Nom, nom, nom, nom. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. Is he German? I know he doesn't speak in a German accent, but I want him to so bad.

[B]

It's disappointing sometimes when you get attached.

[A]

To someone in your mind has an accent, whether it's an actor playing a character. And then you hear, you know, there's so many secret Brits out there who are playing Americans. And then you watch the behind the scenes means, you know, you're like, whoa.

[C]

Yeah, that guy likes crumpets.

[B]

Right?

[C]

That's cause it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Is it? I don't know. Calls it a jumper.

[B]

Sure. Yeah. And you know, when we spoke on Sunday, because we did a Patreon bonus.

[A]

Pod and someone asked us to talk about heated rivalry, which we could not do because neither of us had watched heated rivalry.

[C]

You've seen it?

[B]

I have now seen it.

[A]

I binged it since then. And one of the characters in that show, Ilya Rosanov, who is the Russian.

[B]

Hockey player, he's played by a guy named Connor Story who's from West Texas.

[A]

And what?

[C]

Yeah, they had a Texan doing a Russian accent.

[B]

Yes. And it's. It's a pretty convincing one to me. A non Russian speaker, but it was quite jarring to look up interviews with him afterward.

[A]

And that is just not at all how he talks.

[B]

Anyway, I have one more heated rivalry.

[A]

Point which I will make in a moment. No, no spoilers or anything because I know that you will get to it and it's worth it. But another little bit of baseball business is the Tarek Skubal arbitration case.

[B]

This is, this is quite intriguing.

[A]

So there were and are rumors about a Terry School trade. But right now, the more pressing bit of business for Derrick Skubel and the Tigers is his arbitration case. So this week, Thursday was the arbitration.

[B]

Filing and agreement deadline.

[A]

This is for the pre free agent players who do not come to a deal with their teams or it's the deadline by which they could come to a deal. And if they don't, then the player and their agent files at a certain.

[B]

Number and the team files at a certain number.

[A]

And if they haven't reached a compromise.

[B]

And don't reach a compromise before February.

[A]

When the arbitration hearings happen, then they go to arbitration and they present their cases to an arbitrator.

[B]

And it's. It's a strange, convoluted, arcane kind of.

[A]

Process that kind of no one likes.

[B]

Really, and everyone sort of wants to get rid of.

[A]

But, you know, it's something the players got as a mechanism for making more money before free agency. I think they'd probably be okay with doing away with it if they just got quicker access to free agency. And it's weird and awkward because if you are a player on a team, then if you're attending that or your representative is, then the team is basically badmouthing you and saying you don't deserve how much you asked for and making their case that you should be paid.

[B]

Less because of this and that. And comps to previous players.

[A]

And arbitrators often don't know that much about baseball or baseball stats, and a.

[B]

Lot of it is based on precedent and comps and. And who made what in previous years. And.

[A]

And the arbitrator can't choose a midpoint either, and can't just sort of split the baby, as they say. What a saying. That is just part of the regular.

[B]

Conversation in the English language.

[C]

But I don't use it.

[A]

Well, more power to you because there.

[B]

Are better phrases, perhaps. But they cannot just have a compromise.

[A]

They can't say, oh, well, you chose.

[B]

This number and you chose that higher number. How about this number in the middle?

[A]

I pronounced, wants that to be your salary? They can't do that. They have to choose either or the higher or lower.

[B]

And that is pretty intriguing in the case of Tarik Skubal, because the team and the player have a wider gap.

[A]

Between their filing figures than ever before. So Skubal is seeking a $32 million salary. The Tigers filed at 19 million. So that's a $13 million gap, and that's the biggest in the history of this sort of stuff.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I could see where, you know, Skubal's asking for a record contract. So the record is held by Juan Soto. He got a $31 million deal with the Yankees in his last year before free agency. Shohei Otani got 30 million. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. Last year got 28 and a half million.

[C]

So you'll have to remind me, because I genuinely don't know. I'm not being koi. Those figures were the result of them going to a hearing. Right.

[A]

I think Soto settled. Yeah.

[B]

Soto and Ohtani.

[A]

Yeah, they settled.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I think maybe they all did. Yeah. So. And that could still happen here. It is possible, in fact, I don't know. I might even bet on it happening because it's tough to say, because the Tigers, like many teams, are a file and trial team, which means that to have added leverage, essentially you file and. And that's that. And that's kind of the equivalent of.

[B]

The signing deadline that we were talking about earlier where it's sort of an attempt to have leverage for the team.

[A]

Or at least that's kind of the way it plays out, I think. And so the file and trial idea is just like, well, once we file, we're, we're going to a trial, so you better compromise with us before then or else we are going to end up in that room. And you might get a lot less if the arbitrator rules in the team's favor. So they can continue to negotiate right up to the hearing time. But the Tigers have not done that at least. So if they stick to that tack, then they would not continue to negotiate with Scuba. I, I wonder whether they will just, just because of how important he is to them and the size of the.

[B]

Numbers and everything here.

[A]

So maybe they make an exception. And I think they did make one exception in past years because there was like a, it was Casey Mize and they were haggling over a small number, right. And they eventually reached a deal because it had a club option. So like technically it was a multi year deal. And so I think that's how they kind of justified maintaining their file and trial while continuing to negotiate with Mize because it ended up not being a, a pure one year deal. But that probably wouldn't happen with Skuba, a multi year extension because, you know, he's a Boris client and he's a year away from cashing in in free agencies. So. But there is this giant gulf, so maybe there is some incentive for negotiations to continue.

[B]

But, but Schubel's aiming high, particularly for.

[A]

Pitchers, because the record for the largest arbitration raise for a pitcher is 9.6 million and he made 10 million last season. So you know, this would blow that away. Jacob deGrom has the record for largest arbitration raise for a pitcher and in.

[B]

Fact he was projected.

[A]

MLB Trade Rumors Matt Swartz does arbitration.

[B]

Projections just based on arbitration history and.

[A]

They had him at 17.8 million, which is close to the Tigers figure.

[B]

And the record for the highest overall.

[A]

Arbitration salary for a pitcher is David Price, who was then with the Tigers, 19.75 million.

[B]

So he is asking for a lot.

[A]

More than any other pitcher has gotten in arbitration. On the other hand, he just won back to back Cy Young awards. And also there is another little wrinkle here, which ESPN and Jeff Passon noted. If you have more than five years of service time, right, which you're going.

[C]

Into your final round of arbitration, you can expand the universe of comps.

[A]

Exactly. Yes. So you can Use salary comparisons not just to previous arbitration eligible players, but to any player. And so Skubal can compare himself to Zach Wheeler or Garrett Cole or, you know, guys who are getting 30 something, 40 something million a year instead of just guys who got deals in arbitration in their first years of their first six years of, of service.

[C]

We should remind listeners that if the, if they actually do go to hearing the, the arbitrator cannot arrive at a different number, the they he will be paid either the number that he filed at the 32 million or the number that the Tigers filed at the 19 million. They don't have discretion to pick a different number in between. So if there is a different number arrived at, it has to be the result of continued negotiations between the two sides.

[A]

And I know some people are probably thinking, oh, poor Scubal, if he has to settle for 19 million, sure, he'll be fine.

[B]

But you know, it's still significant when.

[A]

It comes to baseball economic issues.

[B]

And Schubal is a member of the MLBPA executive subcommittee, so he is active.

[A]

In all of that stuff too.

[B]

The other consideration is that he is.

[A]

Going to be a free agent next year and how could this influence things?

[B]

And I think the idea that if you end up in a contentious arbitration hearing, it just sort of salt melts.

[A]

The earth and, you know, it ruins.

[B]

Your relationship with the team. There are definitely some ruffled feathers, there's definitely some bad blood, some bitterness. But I think in a lot of cases, players and teams do get over that.

[A]

If, if the team ultimately comes up with a strong offer in free agency, then it's sort of, well, it's a business. Let bygones be bygones.

[B]

You know, there are some, like Corbin Burns was certainly upset with the brewers after his arbitration here hearing and didn't.

[A]

End up staying with the Brewers. But, you know, would it have made any difference? I, I don't know. I tried to research this and study this once and I couldn't find any.

[B]

Indication that like, being through an arbitration hearing led to players resigning less often with those teams.

[A]

But it was far from definitive. I think so. And you know, there's been a lot.

[B]

Of conversation that the Tigers might trade.

[A]

Schubel and that they might, might think they can't afford him or, or just like want to get something for him because they don't want to take the.

[B]

Chance that he will leave and go elsewhere because he is a Boris client. And so an extension is maybe a little less likely.

[A]

So that complicates like, if they are still thinking of trade talks this winter. Well, suddenly there's a ton of uncertainty about what he will actually be making in 2026. Now, you know, Tarek Skubel's a good deal at 19 or 32, right. For one year. But it would obviously affect the kind of return that you could get for him.

[B]

So that's hanging over this, too. I never thought they would trade him. I don't think they should trade him, but it's on the table. So I don't know how the outcome.

[A]

Of this affects all of that, but it's just such a big gap and such a prominent player that I am kind of curious to see how this all works out. And. And I guess despite the Tigers file.

[B]

And trial stance, I. I tend to think maybe they'll come to some compromise before they actually end up in an arbitration hearing. But if they did, there'd be a lot of stakes, you know, because often. Often it seems like nickel and diming because the team and the player are.

[A]

So close, you know, and that's the case here.

[B]

No, that's not the case here. And.

[A]

And sometimes it's like, why even bother? I mean, it's a few hundred thousand bucks or something. I'm sure that adds up and you set precedents and that, you know, kind of multiplies into the future and everything.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But still, it's like, was this worth it? And how much are you even spending.

[B]

To prep for this arbitration hearing? You know, how many consultants are you paying to prepare reams of data and presentations and everything? But here, it's actually a big gulf. And, you know, I said Schubal was.

[A]

Aiming high and he was.

[B]

I think you could also argue that.

[A]

The Tigers are aiming low.

[B]

Not, you know, I mean, because, like.

[A]

David Price was making about this amount, like, 11 years ago for them. Sure, things have changed a little since then, and if he is able to bring in comps from the wider player universe, and he's not just restricted to arbitration precedent, then they had to know that he would know that and that he would then be aiming higher accordingly. So I don't know which side is sort of more out over its skis.

[B]

I guess, when it comes to the.

[A]

Number that they decided on, but that's just such a massive gulf between them.

[C]

Can I offer a take? What might be considered a take? I think that both sides are making decisions that strike me as fairly rational, which isn't to say that, like, them not being able to come to some sort of an accord doesn't constitute a minor failure. But first of all, I tend to agree with you that I will be surprised if this really goes to trial, Quote unquote. It's going to a hearing. You know, it's like some, it's some arbitrator, you know, it's not even someone who knows baseball a lot of the time. And I don't mean to knock the arbitrator. I'm just saying like this isn't trial.

[A]

Like it was like a jury.

[C]

There's not. I know why they say that because it's expression file and draft. Yeah, they say that because it rhymes. To be clear, they say file and trial because it rhymes, not because it's accurate. They could say file and hearing, but that's a kind of a mouthful. So they say file on trial because it's quippy. I don't think that it is surprising or a sign of like particular weird cheapness on the part of the Tigers that they didn't file at a number that would eclipse a previously set record, even if that record was set a long time ago. I don't find that to be particularly surprising and I don't think that that indicates like a profound disrespect for Scubal. I just don't imagine that it is is especially reasonable to think that the team is going to say, ah, well what are you going to do? Let's give the guy what he likes. I also think that this is an admirable bit of posturing on Skubal's part because he is a member of the union and he is a member of the union's executive board and the combination of arbitration settlements and early extensions is taking the bite out of some of these comps, particularly maybe on the pitching side because the position players are getting paid well. You can't get paid well in arbitration as we've seen. But yeah, I think that requesting a big number, especially when you have like traditional stats and hardware that are as, that are as compelling as Skubal's, that's good union business. Maybe a little ambitious, but I think trying to expand the, the realm of comps when you have this kind of high end outlier performance is good for the process. Although as, as I noted, like it's one or the other. Right. And so you are kind of rolling the dice because who knows what the arbitrator is going Arbiter or arbitrator trigger. I think yeah, arbitrator, arbitrator is going to find compelling and they can only pick one of the two. So. But I just am not particularly surprised that a team wouldn't file at A number higher than the prior record. It just strikes me as pretty rational on their part, so we'll see. But I think they'll probably figure something out. I also think that it's fine for the Tigers to not be overly fussed about what potential impact it's going to have on their relationship with Skubal. They know their not getting him signed to an extension and they know that he, it's not like scubal is going to be like, well I'll show you I'm not going to pitch well in my platform year. Like that's not going to happen either. So I think that they are making a kind of cold but probably in the, in the end reasonable assumption that this will not impact his performance for them and that these things tend to get downplayed later. Anyway, like to your point, there, there are examples of, of players who have come out of the process pretty alarmed and surprised by what was said about them in the course of the hearing. I also just don't know. Like, I imagine that a lot of what the Tiger's argument is going to be is, well, the more appropriate comps for you to look to are other pitchers who have gone through the arbitration process, not ones who have been subject to the free market. Even though Skubal is allowed to point to those guys, I don't think they're going to sit here and be like, ter school's bad. Actually, like that's, that's not a good argument and it's not one that I think they're likely to make. I think that they will probably focus on the other available comps. I don't know. I know people are exercised about this and I'm as pro labor a gal as you'll find, but I just, I. It didn't strike me as particularly surprising. I don't know. I don't think that they really lowballed him that much. They came in at a number that slightly below the existing record. Setting precedent for a pitcher.

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

Seems.

[A]

Yeah. So I, I do think that they'll figure something out because the Tigers have.

[B]

Actually gone to only one hearing since 2001.

[A]

They had a hearing, Michael Fomer in 2019. Yeah.

[B]

Tigers won.

[A]

And, and also I think every deal that was large, like the biggest salary decided in a hearing was a couple years ago when Vlad beat the Blue jays and got 19.9 million. So every. Everything higher than that is from a settlement. So yeah, I suspect that that might happen again. But yeah, I don't know. It's just that, that one stipulation about the being able to compare himself not just to our belgible players, but all.

[B]

Past pitchers, plus the special accomplishments and awards and everything.

[A]

But I, I do kind of have a hard time imagining that. Yeah, presented with 32 million, that an arbitrator would go that high and just blow by all previous records.

[B]

You know, it's just seems like it could be a tough sell in that room.

[C]

It could be, yeah.

[B]

But.

[C]

But also back to back Cy Youngs, he. I mean, like, am I gonna sit here and really reach Derek School's resume? That seems like a waste of time. I, I don't know. Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age. I just am not feeling particularly worked up about this one. But, you know, he's great. I hope, I hope he prevails. I want, if for no other reason than I think it is the more likely avenue or the more consistent avenue for players to make money prior to free agency. I want, want the arbitration process to be a lucrative one. I think that is to the benefit of the players and the sport for that to be true. And so I hope he prevails. And I hope that if, you know, they, that they kind of come to their senses and are like, yeah, okay, like let's, let's get this done before. Because it's February, right. Is when they would go to actual hearing, not trial.

[A]

Yes, they have some time.

[C]

I think it's a hearing, not a trial.

[B]

Well, we will monitor the Schubal situation.

[A]

So my last thought. So this is heated rivalry related, but no spoilers. So I don't know if anyone has.

[B]

Somehow avoided hearing about the phenomenon, the sensation of heated rivalry, which.

[C]

They're hockey players who fall in love, right?

[A]

They. They do, yes. And they are.

[C]

And do they fall in.

[A]

Well, I guess that's.

[C]

I was like.

[A]

If I were to say.

[C]

I was like, are they.

[B]

They are romantically involved.

[C]

They're romantically involved.

[A]

Very involved.

[C]

Is it love? I don't know. Very. Did you just say very involved?

[B]

Very involved, yes.

[A]

So.

[B]

So that's part of why it has become a sensation because there's a lot of very raunchy sex.

[A]

So it's understandable that that has caused some turtles.

[C]

What? Is it on? Is it on?

[B]

So it's a Canadian series.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

From. From Crave, but it was picked up for streaming on HBO Max. Okay.

[C]

I was like, it's not a Netflix show, is it?

[A]

No, it's on HBO Max. That's where I watched it. And, And I gotta say, like, I understand why all the sex stuff has.

[B]

Gotten tons of attention.

[A]

It's just a really good show. Just on every.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Like, awesome. It's. It's well written and acted and directed and just a great cast and just very heartfelt and satisfying story. And I just. I enjoyed it very much, as did my wife. And we watched it really quickly. It's based on the Game Changers series.

[B]

Of novels by Rachel Reeds.

[A]

So, yeah, there's a very thriving, you know, hockey romance fiction out there and other sports, too. And so I do wonder whether this will be sort of the start of.

[B]

Many heated rivalry, like shows.

[A]

Heated rivalry itself, you know, after becoming a sensation, has been renewed for a second season. I look forward to more.

[B]

And there's just. There's a lot of potential source material out there.

[A]

And of course, inevitably, I wonder, will we get a baseball equivalent of this?

[B]

And as a listener, Daniel wrote in to remind us there kind of was a Take Me out was a play by American playwright Richard Greenberg, which won.

[A]

The Tony award back in 2003, I think.

[B]

So this was in the early 2000s. There was a Broadway revival just a.

[A]

Few years ago, but it was about an MLB player who comes out of the closet or isn't out of the closet and everything that that entails. And so there's a lot that could be done with that. Right. And there's just, like, on episode 1776, I talked to the romance novel novelist Katie Casey about the book Unwritten Rules, which I was honored to have an epigraph in because it was a romance novel about catchers and catcher framing.

[B]

It was just a genuinely great novel that I really enjoyed. So there's a ton of that material out there.

[A]

And now that this has been a big hit, I don't doubt that we will see other sports follow suit. But another thing that happens here. So this is. It's not. Not the NHL. Like, they don't use, you know, any NHL names or anything. They don't have the rights to the NHL, but it's very clearly based on the NHL. It's like Major League Hockey. And, you know, the rivalry is essentially.

[B]

Between an Alex Ovechkin type figure in.

[A]

A Sydney Crosby type figure. And it's, you know, one of them plays for essentially the Boston Bruins and.

[B]

The other plays for essentially the Montreal Canadiens.

[A]

There are a ton of parallels there. And there's not actually that much hockey action in it because there's so much other action in it.

[B]

There's not that much.

[C]

I don't have time for all the other actions.

[B]

Yeah, Exactly. So, you know, what's there?

[A]

As, you know, a hockey fan but not a hockey expert seems.

[B]

Seems realistic and good enough to me.

[A]

You know, they take some liberties, obviously, but. But it's not embarrassingly unrealistic or bad or anything. But what is also, I think, kind.

[B]

Of nice and heartening is just the.

[A]

Response that this has generated. Now, there's been a lot written about the response inside hockey, where, you know, fans are. Are very into it, of course, and. And someone with the NHL even shouted it out as something that could bring new fans to the sport and everything. And I think there was one tweet by the Boston Bruins who, you know, kind of baited fans of heated rivalry by tweeting heated rivalry, you know, as a caption to some photos of players fighting and everything. But NHL players have just been pretty mum about it. You know, they're just, like, not really talking about the show. I'm sure some of them are watching.

[B]

It, but they're just not talking about it. And hockey culture is, you know, historically.

[A]

Pretty non LGBTQ friendly. Right? Like, you know, there's a reason why this. The show is set in hockey and why the characters are hiding everything that they're doing.

[B]

And the show, which is interesting, it's.

[A]

Set a while ago. It's not in the present day. It starts in 2008 and then follows these characters for about a decade as their career and their relationship develops.

[B]

And so it's set in the not too distant past, but long enough ago.

[A]

That you might think, oh, things have.

[B]

Changed since then, maybe, but they haven't.

[A]

Really, because there hasn't been an out NHL player, like an active NHL player. And of course, there hasn't been one.

[B]

In MLB either, during their career.

[A]

An active player. Obviously, they're players who came out after their careers, but. But not during.

[B]

And so I was reading an interview.

[A]

Or an excerpt from an interview. Hudson Williams, who plays one of the leads, the hockey player Shane Hollander, was on Andy Cohen's Sirius XM show, and they were talking about. I was reading this excerpt at Outsports, and they were talking about. About the response that he has gotten to the show, and he was talking about how he's heard from a lot of pro athletes who are themselves not out and who have been watching the show and have been appreciating the show's depiction of that. And so Williams said, it's definitely the.

[B]

People who reach out somewhat anonymously who.

[A]

Are like, I'm still a professional player and I'm still in the closet. And Andy Cohen Says you've heard from closeted players. And William says, yes, yes. Cohen says, really closeted hockey players. Hudson Williams says, hockey players, football players, basketball players. And Cohen says, well, he did not name baseball players. And I guess maybe that wasn't an exhaustive, comprehensive list. You know, maybe he was just naming a few sports and didn't mean to say that zero baseball players have contacted him, but it seems somewhat notable. And it's just kind of incredible to.

[B]

Me that, that, you know, this show.

[A]

It took place, you know, starts almost 20 years ago when national attitudes were different in a lot of respects.

[B]

But inside sports, at least inside these specific sports, inside hockey, not really all that different. And, you know, players seemingly don't feel any more comfortable coming out.

[A]

And. And baseball is right there, right? Like MLB and the NHL. Obviously, there have been out players in other sports. And, you know, I'm talking about men's sports specifically here, because women's sports, it's a whole different matter, obviously. But in men's sports, you know, it is kind of disheartening that evidently, I mean, maybe baseball players aren't even reaching.

[B]

Out to say, like, this reflects my. Like, maybe they're so, you know, feel so discouraged from expressing any of this that they wouldn't even kind of anonymously reach out to say thanks for making the show. And, you know, I see myself in this, and this reflects my experience and all of that. So I don't know how much to.

[A]

Read into that comment in baseball, not even being mentioned there. But, you know, obviously there have been some players, pro players in baseball who have come out, including Sonoma Stompers legend.

[B]

Sean Conroy, but still in mlb, nothing.

[A]

You know, and I wonder how long.

[B]

That state of affairs can persist.

[A]

Like, would it shock me if we.

[B]

Woke up one day to breaking news that some player had come out?

[A]

No, I guess it wouldn't. And I feel like mostly even in this environment, that in this political climate and everything, I think that a player who came out would be widely embraced both by teammates and by media. But, you know, obviously there would be certain quarters where there'd be a big backlash, and you can understand why someone just might not want to bring that upon themselves at this stage. Right. So I do just wonder watching this. Like, it's hard not to watch this.

[B]

And reflect on how things in many respects, haven't really changed since the time period that this is depicting.

[A]

And even though it's about hockey, to apply that to baseball, which is very similar when it comes to players not coming out. So, yeah, I Wonder how long that will be the case and what would have to happen for it to change. I guess, you know, just one person probably deciding to step forward and, and.

[B]

Be open and suffer the slings and arrows and everything.

[A]

But it could happen tomorrow.

[B]

It could happen many years from now.

[A]

Like, I don't really have a sense of when that will change.

[C]

I don't either. I am discouraged that when there seemed to be more institutional support from the league that it didn't happen then. And I think that gay players in baseball are probably rightly aware of the sort of general retrenchment around that question at the institutional level. I remain optimistic that over time we will sort of bend toward justice on this stuff culturally. I know that there have been outspoken players around LGBTQ questions in MLB to the downside in the last year, but I do think that, like, broadly, we are in an era of broader cultural acceptance. How many times can I say broadly? But I understand the hesitation if you're a player right now because do you feel like MLB is going to have your back? Yeah, I, I don't know that I would. I mean, and it's been interesting to, to sort of observe from a distance some of the way that the fan base of heat or heated rivalry and some of the cast members of that show have said in. In no uncertain terms, look, the NHL has not done a good job on this stuff. Right.

[A]

Like, yeah, the NHL banned Pride Nights because, you know, there were sort of.

[C]

They caved to prover off. Like they.

[A]

Yeah. Players who opted out players as there have been in baseball. And they just sort of.

[C]

And so it's like why you don't get to profit off of this stuff while you're not doing what you need to to support the communities that are being adversely impacted by federal legislation and policy and a lot of state level legislation and policy. And that isn't to say that there aren't teams that I think are in a very sincere way embracing pride and trying to, to make, you know, their arenas and teams welcoming to their local communities. I mean, like, have you seen the Krakens Pride jerseys? They're not messing around. You know, that is.

[A]

I sort of misspoke. They didn't ban Pride Nights. They just banned Pride Night jerseys and then tape, the rainbow colored tape. And then they kind of walked that back a bit because one player defied them. But yeah, so special jerseys. They just, rather than. And court that controversy, they just said.

[B]

No more, no more special choices.

[C]

Yeah, right. And so I understand why you would have hesitation. I'M not faulting anyone for not coming out. But it is, you know, it's like, if this is something that's important to the league as an institution, well, then they need to put their policy where their mouth is. And I, I know that corporate pride is like a, you know, it's, it can feel like it's just a cash grab. This is like all about commercialism. But I think that it feels really bad when there is sort of ground lost around this stuff because you're, you're sort of granting the premise that this identity is controversial. It's like you wouldn't let, you're not letting anyone sit out Jackie Robinson day, and you shouldn't, because guess what? Get the hell in line. This isn't controversial. You don't get to say that this is something that's in defiance of your belief. I'm sorry, you just don't. So I get why there's not anyone out, but I do hope that we get to a point where it can not only be something where the sort of dam breaks, but where it becomes unremarked upon. Right. Where it's not newsworthy. You know, getting the first one, that's exciting. Getting to a point where these are just folks doing their job and you have a, a broad based policy where everyone feels like they're being included and is safe in the ballpark and safe at work. And sometimes that's the same thing that's the ideal. You know, it's really fun. This is a, maybe a strained comp, but, you know, they've just stopped remarking upon the present of female officials on NFL crews because there are enough of them that like, pretty much every crew has a woman working on it. And they're just doing, they're just out there doing their job. You know, that's a nice spot to be in where it's like, okay, you just, you're getting to a critical mass on this stuff. So I know that baseball, A lot of baseball players are very conservative. I know a lot of baseball players are very religious. There can be over. There's a lot of overlap in those demographics, although it's not. The Venn diagram is not a circle. And so I get why there's trepidation and hesitation and all that. And it doesn't help that, like, the most outspoken players on these questions are often asserting their right to, you know, love the sinner, but hate the sin and all this nonsense. But, you know, I hope that there are more teams that say in a way that feels sincere and genuine, like, no, this is just. These are just the folks who like baseball. They're just folks, and we're gonna make sure that they feel included and safe at the ballpark. Like, I think that the Mariners Pride Night video was great because it was like this affirmative, like, with their full chess. No, this is a good. This is a place for you, rather than it just being like a hat, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It is an interesting question just how.

[A]

MLB and Manfred would handle that if.

[B]

It happened now, because they have, obviously.

[A]

During this presidential administration, they have, you.

[B]

Know, either tried to appease or avoid.

[A]

Any kind of, you know, incitements of Trump.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so, you know, sometimes, whether it's like the Pete Rose situation, just kind of finding a way to give Trump what he wants, and, you know, I'm.

[C]

Not here, I'm not here, I'm not here. Just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or that. Right.

[A]

And to.

[B]

To just sort of, you know, let's take stuff off our website. And it, you know, all the, like.

[A]

The dei, the diversity programs that have.

[B]

Either been discontinued or just kind of like quietly submerged, you know, just like.

[A]

We won't promote this. And so one interpretation, and.

[B]

And maybe even Manfred said something to.

[A]

This effect once where it was just like, you know, we're. We're kind of like working behind the scenes.

[B]

Like, we're trying to do things without.

[C]

Yeah. That was basically what he suggested at the BBWA meeting in Atlanta, which was like, we remain committed to these values, and we're trying to position these programs in a way that allows them to continue without drawing ire from the administration. That's not a direct quote, you know, but, like, that was the gist of what he said was.

[A]

Yeah, which.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

It's hard to weigh whether that's true. It could be like, there's a way. I mean, if you want those programs and organizations to further their goals, then.

[B]

In a way, maybe the best way to do that is to keep a.

[A]

Lower profile right now so as not.

[B]

To, like, cause some kind of culture.

[A]

War issue that then leads to all sorts of other stuff. So maybe. Or maybe that's just an excuse and a, you know, kind of convenient framing. I don't really know what Rob Manfred's.

[B]

Personal politics are exactly, and.

[A]

And whether he would even allow them to dictate how the league operates. You know, obviously there's been, like, flip flopping in how the league has handled holding events in certain places and is not wanting to comment on the change.

[B]

In thinking and everything.

[A]

And, you know, like, lots of organizations and companies and people in the world, in the country have changed thinking about things, or at least the way they express things relative to several years ago. But it's hard to know how they would respond to this if it happened now. Like, you know, I think there would.

[B]

Be some support from like official league channels, I think, even in this environment.

[C]

Sure, I think that's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's, it's also like, particularly now, I mean, not to, we don't have to linger on this too long, but it's like, do you mean that your calculus is different when you're defying what appears to be a historically unpopular administration versus where you think there was a mandate? It really.

[A]

Yes. You know, it depends on the exact timing too. Right.

[B]

But even just recently, like Andy McCullough, I think it was at the Athletic.

[A]

Wrote this week about Venezuela and how teams and the league and players are, are just handling that whole situation and teams like trying to reach out to.

[B]

Players to make sure that they're okay.

[A]

And they can travel and like, can the WBC go forward as scheduled? And you know, it's, it, it seems.

[B]

Like things are okay for players thus far and like no one's, you know, been hurt or seriously endangered and that like they will be able to play WBC and Venezuela will be able to participate in, in all this stuff.

[A]

But it's like they asked for comment from MLB and MLB declined to comment. You know, maybe there's nothing that substantive they could say, but even just some sort of anodyne statement about like, yeah, concern for the safety of our players because it's like, what, the second biggest.

[B]

Contingent of international players is from Venezuela. And so, yeah, and so even some.

[A]

Sort of just bland statement of concern or support for players, well being or.

[B]

Something like that, they didn't do that.

[A]

And so maybe it's just like not.

[B]

Wanting to sort of stick your head.

[A]

Up, you know, and there's always the cudgel of like the antitrust exemption and that gets held over their heads and everything. And you just kind of don't want to poke the bear or it seems like they don't want to poke the bear. And Manfred's played golf with Trump in the past.

[B]

And to some extent, if you're a.

[A]

Commissioner, you have to hobnob with politicians, whether you're sympathetic to their views or not. It's just part of your job and incumbent on you in that role to be the best commissioner and representative of the owners that you can be and look out for your interests and everything. But yeah, they certainly have not wanted to be combative even as much as, like, the NFL has in recent years, you know, and even the NFL in this administration has been a bit more willing to buck the.

[B]

The wishes. Right.

[A]

So, yeah, it. You can understand why this time of all times would probably not be the most fortuitous or. Or conducive to wanting to say now is the moment.

[B]

But, you know, I. I hope, obviously.

[A]

That it happens someday that, like, if a player wants to do it, that they feel comfortable and supported enough to do it.

[C]

I. Yeah. You've asked me how I've been, like, the last couple episodes we've recorded, and I've been like. And it's, you know, things are. Things are pretty grim. Things are pretty grim out there, and we. We get reminders of that fairly often and Horrible week for so many reasons. Like, you're trying to parse the different reasons, and it's like, oh, it was a very different answer on Monday than it is today, but they're both bad. So, you know, I agree. I hope that we are both in a place where there are folks who can be themselves and feel safe doing so right now, and that we can move toward a reality where that is true for a much broader swath of the population on any number of. Of, like, demographic variables. Right. Whether it's your sexual orientation or your immigration status. It's a. It's a trying time, but I just, you know, I'm glad that this show exists for people to, like, have an outlet for themselves in a difficult moment. And also, I. I mean, heated rivalry, I guess. Guess effectively wild. Also, I hope we serve a similar purpose, although less raunchy.

[A]

Well, we haven't shifted to video yet.

[C]

Yeah, that's. That's a frontier I don't think we're gonna cross. Every. Every day, I feel like I see an article that's, like, the best podcasters are on video. And I was like, not all of the best podcasters. I don't know. I'm. I'm stumbling my way through. Just, like, we love everyone listening to the show, and we hope you're well and safe, and it was a hard week for everyone, but we're here for you.

[B]

Yeah, it's almost like we're ending the episode with a minute to remember that.

[A]

It'S all about the fans, just like Rob Manfred does daily.

[C]

I'm just saying, Rob, there are a lot of ways to cement your legacy, and one of them is building a more inclusive game. That's all I'm saying. I mean, it's clearly not all I'm saying we've been talking for like two hours. It's one of the things that I.

[B]

Am saying that will do it for today and for this week.

[A]

Thanks as always for listening and special.

[B]

Thanks to those of you who support.

[A]

The podcast on Patreon, which you can.

[B]

Do by going to patreon.com effectively wild and signing up to pledge some monthly.

[A]

Or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going.

[B]

Help us stay ad free and get.

[A]

Yourself access to some perks as have.

[B]

The following five listeners Bailey Weaver, Van Harding, Leah Ferdig, Cohen, Galen and Sydney Helfer.

[A]

Thanks to all of you.

[B]

Patreon perks include access to the Effectively.

[A]

Wild Discord group for patrons only, monthly.

[B]

Bonus episodes, playoff live streams, prioritized email.

[A]

Answers, shoutouts at the end of episodes.

[B]

Potential podcast appearances, discounts on merch and ad free Fangrass memberships, and so much more. Check out all the [e-mail] effectivelywild if.

[A]

You are a Patreon supporter, you can.

[B]

Message us through the Patreon site.

[A]

If not, you can contact us via email.

[B]

Send your questions, your comments, your intro.

[A]

And outro themes to podcastangraphs.com youm can.

[B]

Rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music and other podcast platforms.

[A]

You can join our Facebook [e-mail] group effectivelywild.

[B]

You can find the effectively wild subreddit at r effectivelywild and you can check the show notes in the podcast posted fan graphs or in the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to out shout Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We hope you have a wonderful weekend.

[A]

And we will be back to talk to you next week. Effectively Wild, Effectively styled, distilled over chill beats, Effectively mild.