Effectively Wild Episode 2427: Holo Victory

Summary

Effectively Wild Episode 2427: Holo Victory

Date: January 16, 2026
Hosts: Ben Lindbergh (The Ringer), Meg Rowley (FanGraphs), Michael Bauman
Special Guest: John Norton (Patreon supporter)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Effectively Wild dives into recent American League East transactions, with a particular focus on the Yankees’ trade for pitcher Ryan Weathers and the Red Sox’s five-year signing of Ranger Suárez. The hosts unpack strategy shifts, roster-building philosophies, and what these moves signal for both teams and the division overall. The second segment features top-tier Patreon supporter John Norton, who joins to answer listener hypotheticals about free agency structures, the value of being MLB’s worst player, drug policy and WAR, and, in true Effectively Wild fashion, the fictional stats of Star Trek’s Buck Bokai.

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AL East Transactions and Analysis

Yankees Acquire Ryan Weathers (00:43–11:51)

• Yankees’ Motivation:

  • Yankees break offseason inactivity by trading for Marlins starter Ryan Weathers, after failing to acquire Edward Cabrera, who went to the Cubs.
  • Discuss the "depth and risk" factor: Weathers is talented but often injured.
    • “He’s been hurt for a lot of it. But he seems to be adaptable. He's made some changes...even if like the stats didn’t quite line up with what you might expect based on the underlying quality of his pitches.” – Meg (03:59)
  • Marlins’ side: Seen as confidence in pitching pipeline, possibly prepping for prospects like Thomas White & Robbie Snelling to get MLB time.

• Expectations for Weathers:

  • Upside discussion: Could thrive if healthy, addition of a slider, uptick in velocity.
  • “They needed rotation depth and they're adding a guy who is not really the provider of depth. He's kind of the type who tests your depth…” – Meg (08:44)

• Fan Montage:

  • Yankees fans may be underwhelmed—“It's hardly a slam dunk move like ‘we did it, mission accomplished, offseason’s a success’, but it's a start.” – Ben (11:09)
  • Trade trivia: Weathers’ father (David) had a rough Yankees tenure—“26 and a third innings with a 9.57 ERA…” – Meg (07:32)

Red Sox Sign Ranger Suárez (11:53–14:44)

• Contract Details: Five years, $130 million.

• “They had the best projected rotation…according to the fangraph step charts, and now they do by even more.” – Meg (13:13)

• Rotation Depth:

  • Red Sox now “go like 10 deep with guys who would be viable back of the rotation pitchers.” – Ben (13:46)
  • Notable pitchers: Crochet, Gray, Suárez, Baio, Oviedo, Sandoval, more.

• Trade Rumors & Depth:

  • “I understand. You can never have too much pitching, whatever. But they have so many guys… I have to imagine they do some sort of consolidation trade.” – Michael (14:30)

AL East Competitive Landscape (21:51–25:32)

• Strength in Numbers:

  • Blue Jays, Yankees, Red Sox dominate top of Fangraphs projected WAR.
  • Orioles and Mets also in the mix — AL East seen as “powerhouse.”

• Big Picture:

  • “Whichever one I look at last seems to me to be stronger and the favorite in this division.” – Ben (23:05)
  • “There’s too much depth, which is … a good problem to have, but you do kind of wait for the other shoe to drop…” – Ben (24:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “They haven't really signed a free agent to a multi-year deal… during the Breslow years. Right. And they have shown a reluctance to sign pitchers in particular to long term deals.” – Meg on Red Sox philosophy (02:01)
• “So okay, I, I guess I see the vision, but until we see the vision actually come to fruition long term… it's hard to have any faith if you're a fan.” – Meg on Marlins approach (06:38)
• “I think [the Suárez deal] just seemed like a reasonable deal. Zips was like, yeah, that's about what I'd give him. I think it was off by, like, you know, five, six million dollars. So it seems like they kind of dialed it in just right.” – Michael on market price (18:15)
• On Suárez’s craftiness: “He's almost too young to be a crafty lefty, but he's crafty beyond his years.” – Ben (19:13)

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Listener Segment: With John Norton (Patreon Guest) (26:49–92:03)

John Norton Introduction (26:49–30:14)

• Long-time listener celebrating with a top-tier Patreon appearance; background as a statistician in the pharmaceutical industry.

Notable moment:

• “A baseball player is actually kind of like a drug…you make a very large upfront investment… the risks and the rewards are very uncertain.” – John (30:45)

Hypothetical: Free Agent Timeshare (30:34–36:40)

• John proposes two teams “timesharing” a free agent to split risk/cost.
• Hosts mull logistical, contractual, and lifestyle issues (family, rivalry, premium, etc.).
• Michael: “It seems like a young man's endeavor...if you get the cliff year where the decline really sets in...you’d feel pretty annoyed by that.” (31:52)
• Mega: “Maybe you’d have to pay more to get someone to agree to that, and then maybe you’re not really reaping any of the rewards of decreased risk...” (34:04)

Hypothetical: Yearly Free Agency vs. Long-Term Security (39:37–48:56)

• Who made the most by only signing one-year MLB contracts? Examples: Edwin Jackson, Rich Hill, Roger Clemens (his late-career model), per Cot’s Contracts.
• “Long term contracts really are really more important to the players...it’s in the player's interest to have the long term contract, no matter how appealing it may be to be open to any bidder every year.” – John (44:05)
• Discussion of Trevor Bauer’s old claim: would only sign one-year deals (46:22).

Hypothetical: Would You Want To Be MLB’s Worst Player? (50:06–63:06)

• Listener asks if hosts would trade infamy for the “experience” of being MLB’s worst player.
• Ben: “No, I would not want to do this… It would feel and be entirely unearned, obviously. So I wouldn’t feel as if I had accomplished anything…” (53:03)
• John: “I guess it kind of depends on how much of your self esteem depends on your athletic performance...” (51:05)
• Michael: “The notion of doing this and in front of people on TV. Absolutely not.” (62:17)
• Ben references the Sonoma Stompers experiment: gaining a Baseball Reference page “would have undercut our message.” (59:04)

Statistical/Philosophical: Should Switch-Hitting Earn Extra Credit? (64:27–77:10)

• Listener Philip asks if switch hitters should get “extra credit” for difficulty, since it’s ultimately a strategic choice.
• “If you have the capacity to switch hit, every switch hitter has the option to stop switch hitting… and they opt not to because they think that switch hitting gives them advantages.” – Meg (69:41)
• Michael: “Maybe part of the issue is that I don’t…think about it as something that’s commendable. Right. It’s not virtuous. It's impressive.” (68:08)
• Consensus: Impressive, but not inherently virtuous—choice confers advantage.

Statistical/Philosophical: "Clean" WAR Without PED Guys (78:20–82:22)

• Listener Orion asks: what if you made a parallel WAR calculation stripping out all PED users?
• Hosts doubt it would move stats much, as PED history is “selective and incomplete,” and many users were non-stars. “If you removed only confirmed periods of PED use, it would not make much of a difference to the league wide baselines, really.” – Meg (80:25)

Star Trek Baseball Lore: Is Buck Bokai the GOAT? (82:26–91:02)

• Listener Matt asks about the fictional stats of Buck Bokai.
• Hosts break down the canon (longevity, position switch, lack of power, long hit streak).
• “You could be a shortstop and play for an extremely long time and theoretically rack up the kind of value that a corner outfielder did despite him hitting for far more power than you.” – Ben (86:27)
• The hosts agree that a player like Bokai could be the greatest, especially after 27 seasons and enough on-base/defensive value.

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Fun & Meta Moments

• Holodeck analogies: “If we’re on the holodeck, you know, if this is just like a VR simulation… that I would do to get a sense of what that would feel like without all of the associated downsides.” – Meg (61:48)
• Meta podcast humor: Patreon guests tend to plug concepts like “the scientific method” rather than self-promotion—“A lot of upsides to the scientific method. We should continue to trust that, I think.” – Ben (92:24)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:43 – Yankees trade for Ryan Weathers
• 11:53 – Red Sox sign Ranger Suárez
• 21:51 – AL East power rankings & competitive landscape
• 26:49 – Patreon guest John Norton joins
• 30:34 – Pharma-inspired free agency timeshare proposal
• 39:37 – Lifetime earnings via one-year contracts
• 50:06 – Would you be MLB's worst player for the experience?
• 64:27 – Should switch hitters get special credit?
• 78:20 – Stripping PED users from WAR/stat baselines
• 82:26 – Buck Bokai: could his stats make him the GOAT?
• 92:03 – Meta/outro, plugs (“the scientific method”)

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Tone and Format

The conversation, as always, is lively and analytical, filled with trademark Effectively Wild digressions, running jokes, and deep dives into both recent transactions and baseball culture hypotheticals. The hosts balance advanced stat analysis with humor and endearing nerdiness ("it’s a strong roster," “we can never have enough stats about AL East dominance,” “the scientific method!”), maintaining their accessible, community-driven ethos.

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For More

• Ringer MLB Show episode on DS9’s holodeck baseball (Ben & Michael)
• Patreon: patreon.com/effectivelywild
• Email: [e-mail]

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Summary prepared for listeners who missed the episode—expect episodes packed with advanced baseball analysis, wild hypotheticals, and affectionate baseball nerdery.

Transcript

[John Norton]

It's the zombie runner.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Bobby Shands. Bobby Shands. Bobby Shands. Effectively Wild. Joey Menesis.

[Meg Riley]

No.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Walk off. Three run Digger.

[Michael Bauman]

Stop it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Walk off. Three run shot.

[Michael Bauman]

Oh my God, Meg.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He's the best player in baseball. Effectively Wild. Hello and welcome to episode 2427 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from FanGraphs presented by our patrons Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer.

[Meg Riley]

Joined by Meg Riley of fangraphs. Hello Meg.

[Michael Bauman]

Oh, hello.

[Ben Lindbergh]

We will be joined shortly by one.

[Meg Riley]

Of said Patreon supporters, John Norton, one.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Of our top tier supporters who will join us in a bit to answer some emails from other listeners. Before we get to him though, we have two transactions to discuss. Yeah, and as is often the case this off season, they both involve acquisitions by American League east teams. So one was the Yankees who finally awakened from their off season slumber. Brian Cashman has been disturbed from his hibernation and has made a trade with the Marlins for starting pitcher Ryan Weathers.

[Meg Riley]

And the Red Sox have responded to that acquisition. Probably not actually a response to that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Acquisition, but they did make their own acquisition. Subsequently they signed Ranger Suarez free agent.

[Meg Riley]

To a five year deal worth $130 million.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So it's kind of in keeping with a lot of what we've seen this offseason in the sense of ale's teams that were already good, getting better. But it is out of step with.

[Meg Riley]

What we've seen in that hey, the Yankees actually did something and the Red.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Sox signed a free agent because they.

[Meg Riley]

Had not done that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They had made multiple trades and major trades but they had not signed any.

[Meg Riley]

Free agent at all this off season.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I think they were the last team.

[Meg Riley]

To sign a free agent this off.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Season and they haven't really signed a free agent to a multi year deal like a legitimate multi year deal, not sort of a make good pitcher coming off an injury kind of deal. At least during the the Breslow years. Right. And they have sort of shown a reluctance to sign pitchers in particular to long term deals and especially guys who.

[Meg Riley]

Are older than Ranger Suarez is. Maybe his relative youth is what made them go to five years for him.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Not that that's that long, but he only 30. Anyway, I guess we can take these in the order in which they were consummated. What do you make of the Marlins dealing yet another starter after trading Edward Cabera to the Cubs whom the Yankees.

[Meg Riley]

Were also interested in acquiring?

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I guess those talks perhaps paid dividends and that they had already been discussing a different starting pitcher and so.

[Meg Riley]

Maybe that led to the Ryan Weathers move when Cabara went to Chicago.

[Michael Bauman]

I think that, boy, they sure have a lot of confidence in the depth that they have. That tends to be my thought for a lot of these. Although I will say when evaluating that depth, obviously useful to think about not only the guys who they have at the big league level right now, but the guys who they might have at the big league level in the near term. So you know, we're all familiar with the Sandy Alcantras and the Yuri Perez's and Max Meyer and Braxton Garrett and Jansen junk who I just love saying Jansen junk. But you know, as Bauman noted in the Cabrera trade write up, as Kerry noted in her write up of this deal, like Thomas White and Robbie Snelling are sort of lurking and it seems like this is maybe if you're those guys you have to be thrilled, right? Because the odds that they get through a season without those guys getting significant time in the majors in 2026 seem quite low. I want this to end up being a move that makes the Yankees look really smart because it's just been hard to know what to make of Weathers in the course of his major league career because he's been hurt for a lot of it. But he seems to be adaptable. He's made some changes. He sort of in between IL stints last year kind of showed some improved stuff even if like the stats didn't quite line up with what you might expect based on the underlying quality of his pitches. So I think the weathers is exciting and you know, I guess you got to have something to do to pass the time before you finally come to terms with Cody Bellinger. So yeah, that seems okay. It's interesting from the Marlins perspective because, and I'm not like saying anything particularly revelatory here, but when they moved Cabrera they went and got a guy who's like I think almost certain to be on their opening day roster. Right. Like they prioritize sort of a big league ready corner guy in Owen Casey and he's had a big league time. This is a more like volume based approach with lower level guys who are much further away from the majors. And you know, I think that when, when Brendan looked at that group of guys to give Curie notes, he was, he was sort of underwhelmed like a bunch of bench pieces. But maybe you hit on one of those guys and he sort of exceeds expectations or you have a, an idea in mind for how to better optimize the swing or what have you. So it's interesting to see them in sort of back to back moves, deploying multiple strategies as a way of seemingly bolstering the big league roster at the same time that they're like reinforcing the minor league system. So that's interesting to me.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. As I expressed when we talked about the compara trades, I remain skeptical about the Marlins until proven otherwise. I guess you know that this isn't just sort of the endless cycling through players who are even approaching arbitration, let alone free agency with an eye towards.

[Meg Riley]

The future and just staying on that treadmill forever essentially and never really getting.

[Ben Lindbergh]

To the promised land except a couple.

[Meg Riley]

Times that they did of course, but then they immediately disassembled themselves.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So I don't know, I guess I want to have some faith in, in the current Marlin's decision makers that they have a plan here and just by stockpiling prospects they will sift through them.

[Meg Riley]

And they will get some gold and that they think maybe they have a.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Strength when it comes to pitching.

[Meg Riley]

And you know, they certainly are subtracting from that surplus. But as you said, they do have major league AR that are ready to substitute for them.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So okay, I, I guess I see.

[Meg Riley]

The vision, but until we see the vision actually come to fruition long term for more than a year at a.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Time, really for this franchise, it's just.

[Meg Riley]

It'S hard to have any faith if you're a fan.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You've just, you've seen so many generations.

[Meg Riley]

Of promising players be moved and just prospects coming back, cheaper players, not coincidentally. And then as soon as they get good and start to make money, they're off to another team too.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So maybe time will be different, but maybe not so for the Yankees. I, this Trade goes down 30 years after the trade of David Weathers, father of Ryan Weathers, from the Marlins to the Yankees. And I, I am quite confident that.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah, I know that, that Ryan Weathers.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Will outperform his father for the Yankees because David Weathers career for the Yankees.

[Meg Riley]

Amounted to 26 and a third innings.

[Ben Lindbergh]

With a 9.57 ERA, more walks than strikeouts. That's a negative 1.0 baseball reference war which is pretty impressive in that amount of playing time. So yeah, I think that he will be better than that. By the way, David weathers had a 19 year big league career. That's, you know, that's impressive to me.

[Meg Riley]

I would have taken the under on that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He certainly was a staple of my youth in baseball.

[Meg Riley]

But still 19 years, that's long but.

[Ben Lindbergh]

His time with the Yankees, not his most distinguished stint. So Weathers has upside. Like he's got stuff and he's made some upgrades to his repertoire, seemingly, although then he also continued to break a bit. And so I never know, like, you could look at his stuff last season.

[Meg Riley]

And dream on what he could do in a full healthy season with what he was throwing, but then did what he was throwing and, and you know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He added a slider, right.

[Meg Riley]

And he had just another tick on.

[Ben Lindbergh]

His fastball and everything.

[Meg Riley]

And who knows if, you know, doing those things. Throwing harder contributed to his being a bit breakable, but he's been a bit breakable for a while.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So it's one of those weird situations where they needed rotation depth and they're.

[Meg Riley]

Adding a guy who is not really the provider of depth. He's kind of the type who tests your depth more than anything. Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So I guess the more of those guys you amass, the better. But they're looking at entering the season.

[Meg Riley]

With Garrett Cole and Carlos Ron still recovering from surgery, and you hope that they'll be back at some point. And I guess Clark Schmidt too, who had internal brace repair. So you're down a few starters and.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You hope you'll get reinforcements at some point during the season.

[Meg Riley]

And so I guess you hope that Freed and Schlitler and Warren and Weathers and, and heal can get you through things until your other guys get back.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And then, you know, maybe if everyone's.

[Meg Riley]

Healthy, which is never the case, then you could always consider moving someone to the bullpen. I'm sure Weathers would probably be a lights out reliever if, if they ever wanted to try him that way, but.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I'm sure they'd like to have him be a starter and, and you know, it's kind of an upside play, I guess. Like, I don't know if it'll satisfy Yankees fans.

[Meg Riley]

What would. But I think in the absence of some major signing, then it's like we.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Got the second most desirable Marlins starter. Maybe you could make a case that.

[Meg Riley]

Weathers will be better than Cabrera. That's, that's possible, but that probably wouldn't.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Be the baseline projection. So it's like we missed out on.

[Meg Riley]

You know, other top starters who got traded. We didn't get Freddie Peralta, or at least they haven't. And so we settled for the Marwyn starter that the Cubs didn't get.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So, you know, how much does that.

[Meg Riley]

Appease the fan base?

[Ben Lindbergh]

But, but I, I don't mind the move at all.

[Meg Riley]

In isolation, I Think given what they.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Surrendered in exchange for Weathers, you know, even if he continued to be a.

[Meg Riley]

Pretty effective, if sporadically available starter, that might well work out for them because.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He'S been, you know, pretty, pretty good in the innings that he has pitched over the past couple seasons and there's.

[Meg Riley]

Potential for him to be even better.

[Ben Lindbergh]

On an inning printing basis or to actually qualify for the ERA title for once. I mean, even Ranger Suarez, who we'll.

[Meg Riley]

Talk about in a second, hasn't qualified.

[Ben Lindbergh]

For the ERA title in his career and he just got under 30 million deals, so that's not a prerequisite to be a successful, coveted starting pitcher these days. I'm just saying, you know, it's hardly a, a slam dunk move like we did it, mission accomplished, off season's a success, but it's a start. Now, you know, you don't want your.

[Meg Riley]

Off season to essentially start in mid.

[Ben Lindbergh]

January, but it's better than never having it start. And you know, if they sign Bellinger and maybe there are other moves that they have up their sleeve here, they could just procrastinate and still get their work done. Because who among us hasn't done that, right?

[Michael Bauman]

I mean, like, on the one hand, better to have your business resolved earlier. On the other hand, still plenty of brisk business to do out there, right? So it's not like it's really bitten them so far.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And he's under team control for a.

[Meg Riley]

Few years, so, you know, it's always good to have someone like that. Although again, that makes me more skeptical of, of the Marlins trading these guys who, if they are theoretically close to contention, could have helped them. Content in theory, but.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But yeah, to pry Weathers away and.

[Meg Riley]

Not have to give up any of your top prospects, that's probably pretty nifty.

[Michael Bauman]

Yeah, I think that's a good bit of work if it's all just. Yeah, lower level dudes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So gave up a couple outfielders, a couple infielders, two Dylan's though different Dylan Spellings. There's Dylan Lewis, the D I, L.

[Meg Riley]

L, O, N. And there's the Dylan J.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So Jasso J.

[Meg Riley]

So D, Y, L, A, N. Yeah. And. And you recently expressed some desire for, for people to get on the same pa Comes to the spellings of same sounding names. But yeah, Marlin's doubling down on Dylan's here.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So that's one move.

[Meg Riley]

And we'll see whether that's a precursor.

[Ben Lindbergh]

To additional Yankees transactions and acquisitions. The Red Sox, though, they have maybe kind of capped off a successful off season.

[Meg Riley]

I Mean, they may well not be.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Done even after signing Rares, but this.

[Meg Riley]

Is a pretty, I think, impressive investment.

[Ben Lindbergh]

On their part because they didn't necessarily need a starting pitcher because I think.

[Meg Riley]

Before they made this move, they had the best projected rotation according to the fangraph step charts, and now they do by even more. And this is a, a really impressive group because they've got Garrett Crochet at the top, plus Gray and Suarez both acquired this off season. And then you're looking at Ryan Baio is what, a fourth starter, you know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Johan Oviedo, whom they also acquired this off season, your fifth starter or something.

[Meg Riley]

And then they go like 10 deep.

[Ben Lindbergh]

With, with guys who would be viable back of the rotation pitchers.

[Meg Riley]

At least they have Patrick Sandoval, they have Peyton Tolley and Connolly early, who impressed at times last year. They have Carter Crawford, they got Kyle Harrison. So the old maxim that I coined.

[Ben Lindbergh]

About how you can never have enough pitching, I think they are really ensuring that they might actually have enough pitching.

[Meg Riley]

I, you know, famous last words. But that's a nice change because in.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Recent seasons they have not had enough pitching. Especially like top of the rotation type pitching, you know, for stretches of even.

[Meg Riley]

Last season it was like, Crochet's incredible. But then what? And now it's solid top to bottom.

[Michael Bauman]

It's so interesting to watch the Red Sox and the Cubs do this thing where they're like, well, what if we just accumulate a bunch of guys at basically the same position and then we'll just have a crazy store of them to deal from, right? Like, they're not going to. I understand. You can never have too much pitching, whatever. But they have so many guys. They have so many guys. I have to imagine that they do some sort of consolidation trade and, and they could decide not to do that and just be like, hey, this is the off season. We're spending big money and still go sign Boba Shet, right? But if they don't and Boba Shet goes to the Phillies, well then the Phillies have an infield surplus. And hey, Rangers, Whoares just signed with the Red Sox, so maybe you need a starter. So just do a little swap. Do you know, like it's so. Or call the Cubs and be like, hey, Alex Bregman, he's there now. What do you, what do you think about some of our guys? You know, you need a dude. Megan Ben keep saying you need a dude. You, you have some interesting arms. We like some of your guys, but Megan Ben keeps saying you need a dude. And we got dudes and we need an infield dude. So maybe we do some little business about one of our dudes for one of your infield dudes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It is funny because yeah, last time we talked about the Bregman signing and what this means for the Red Sox.

[Meg Riley]

And we talked about the Cubs and.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And should they deal from an infield.

[Meg Riley]

Surplus or should they just hold their.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Hand and profit, which I was in favor of.

[Meg Riley]

But if they are going to trade.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Horner or Shaw or someone, then suddenly the Red Sox seem like sort of a logical destination possibly. So instead of getting Bregman, having him leave and go to the Cubs maybe then, then they end up with one of the people that Bregman displaced in Chicago. Who knows. We'll see. But, but you know, the primary takeaway.

[Meg Riley]

I guess for me is that last time, even when we talked about the Red Sox, we were talking about how good they are and the young guys they have and the extensions they've signed.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Some of them to and everything but they hadn't really made a splash in.

[Meg Riley]

Free agency in a while and now.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They have done that.

[Meg Riley]

So kudos to them.

[Michael Bauman]

Kudos to them. You know and I, I really like Rangers Royal, really like watching him pitch.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah.

[Michael Bauman]

And so I'm glad he got paid because he's fun to watch and it's nice when the guys who are fun to watch get paid and you know, he's been. Because he's been hurt at various stretches and wasn't always a full time starter. Like he hasn't made a ton, a ton of money either. That's nice for him to, to go make some money. And now I mean look, we talked about how they these names and I'm sure that their rotation will have more than feature more than five guys over the course of an entire season. But it's just a much, it's a much higher caliber front to back. Right. Like they've had some of the names that you mentioned, like Pao's been there and they've had guys and they haven't really grabbed like that 2, 3 spot, you know. And so they went in and got a guy who's sort of an unquestioned two or three, you know, depending on how you feel about Gray.

[Meg Riley]

So yeah, this worked out well for.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Me in the effectively wild free agent contracts over Underdraft.

[Meg Riley]

I did have the over on Suarez.

[Ben Lindbergh]

At 1:15 which was MLB trade rumors projection. But it was similar to what Ben Clemens had and what the Fancraft's crowdsourced had.

[Michael Bauman]

Ben's was bang on. I Think that's right? Yeah, that's right. Years in years.

[Meg Riley]

You nailed it years ago.

[Michael Bauman]

And aav, spot on.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. So this just seemed like a reasonable deal.

[Michael Bauman]

Zips was like, yeah, that's about what I'd give him. I think it was off by, like, you know, five, six million dollars. So it seems like they kind of dialed it in just right.

[Meg Riley]

And I don't know whether the Phillies.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Now, having lost Suarez, whether they repurpose some of that money and. And they go after Bichette or someone else. Yeah, there's this little, like, musical chair sort of situation happening with a limited number of teams here, it seems. And Suarez, he is not the typical.

[Meg Riley]

Power pitcher profile, that's for sure, that teams are often looking for.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But I see some people will use the phrase smoke and mirrors, which I think implies that it's unsustainable. Maybe it's not smoke and mirrors. There's definitely illusion and deception and everything going on there, but I think it's a sustainable smoke and mirrors. He makes it work.

[Meg Riley]

He fools hitters, and you can kind of identify how he does it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I know I saw a lot.

[Meg Riley]

Of people say, oh, the Red Sox, they finally splurged on a free agent.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And it's a lefty pitcher. Kind of a crafty lefty to boot in Fenway, and that doesn't fit the typical profile. He's almost too young to be a crafty lefty, but he's crafty beyond his years. He's precocious in the craftiness department. And I think he could be fine in Fenway because, you know, we probably.

[Meg Riley]

Overrate park effect sometimes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But also, he mostly keeps the ball on the ground in most seasons, and.

[Meg Riley]

He does not surrender a lot of.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Pulled fly balls to righties that could just hammer off or over the monster.

[Meg Riley]

Even though you'd think that it would be easy to get around on his.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Stuff because, you know, he throws like, 90, 91. And I remember earlier this offseason, I.

[Meg Riley]

Think when Kyle Hendricks retired, we bantered a bit about, is he the last of his kind, and will there be another Kyle Hendricks, and how would that pitcher get developed?

[Ben Lindbergh]

And Hendricks is a righty in.

[Meg Riley]

Suarez is a lefty. So he's not exactly the heir to Kyle Hendricks, you know, finesse pitcher throne.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But. But he sort of is that kind of pitcher. He just has, like, pinpoint command and manages to get a decent number of strikeouts, even though he doesn't get a lot of whiffs. You know, he. He's not getting tons of swings and Misses, but he gets called strikes. Like, he tunnels really well as, as best we can tell, and hides the difference between his pitches and, you know, has a separation between his fastball and his change up, even though his fastball is, isn't that fast. And he just seemingly repeatedly induces pretty weak contact. Not that he's like a, a huge.

[Meg Riley]

ERA versus FIP guy.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I mean, you know, there's a little.

[Meg Riley]

Bit of a differential there where he's had lower eras than fips, but it's not a massive gap.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But he just, he doesn't walk anyone.

[Meg Riley]

He keeps the ball in the park. Yeah, he gets soft contact.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He puts pitches where he wants them.

[Meg Riley]

He obviously has a track record of postseason success.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Whenever he's been tasked with postseason starts, he generally risen to the challenge. So, yeah, like, I guess you could.

[Meg Riley]

Be wary of, oh, if he's only 30 and he's throwing 90 now, then what does this look like a few years from now? And is there like a cliff where he loses a tick or two and suddenly it all falls apart? And it's kind of dependent on, on.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Having some minimum threshold of speed that he is able to achieve. I guess that's possible. I guess there's collapse potential, but you know, when it isn't there with, with any pitcher, really. So he's been, he's been quite solid and he's a really nice addition to that staff.

[Michael Bauman]

Yeah, I agree.

[Ben Lindbergh]

What's the best team in this division? I honestly, I don't know because like you look at the, the fan graphs.

[Meg Riley]

Team depth charts, and this is purely projected war, not taking into account schedule. Yes, and obviously all of these AL east teams will be beating up on each other, which will impact their records.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But just in terms of, of talent.

[Meg Riley]

The Dodgers are on top.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Then it's Blue Jays, Yankees, Braves, Mariners, Red Sox. So you have three AL east teams in the top six, and then it goes Mets, Orioles. So half, half of the top eight are alias teams. I mean, it's like total powerhouse. And all of them, you know, with the exception of the Yankees for the.

[Meg Riley]

Most part, have really been busy and aggressive and upgraded this off season.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So the Blue Jays maybe have sort.

[Meg Riley]

Of won the off season, I guess if we were to prematurely declare a winner. And they might not be done, but the Red Sox are right up there neck and neck with them. The Orioles aren't far behind either.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I, each time I look at one of these rosters, especially the Blue Jays and the Red Sox, it's like whichever one I looked at last seems to Me to be stronger and the favorite in this division. And I, I honestly don't know.

[Meg Riley]

I think they're both really strong teams.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And the projections would have us believe that. That the Yankees are neck and neck with them.

[Michael Bauman]

Yeah, I think that, I mean, it's really nice to have an Aaron Judge helps a lot, but yeah, it's going to be, I think a real knockdown drag out and in a way that isn't. It always projects well, the AL east, like there are very rarely years where, you know, at least three of the teams aren't thought to be some of the best ones in the American League entering the season. But just in terms of the work that several of those clubs, not all of them have done to bolster their rosters, it really does seem like it's going to be a doozy of a division. So.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, and the Red Sox, they have the young guys you could project further growth from or at least more playing time. You know, a full season of Roman Anthony, that's exciting. So even though there are still some question marks and yeah, it just, it seems like there's too much depth, which is. It's a good problem to have, but you do kind of wait for the other shoe to drop or is there some other move that just consolidates things? And you could say that about the outfield too because they have really four.

[Meg Riley]

Very viable major league outfielders and they're.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Only three outfield positions and yeah, and that's not even taking into account Yoshida, who, as I said the other day, just doesn't really seem to a fit.

[Meg Riley]

And you know, even though he could maybe still hit, is maybe not their best option. But what do you even do with that outfield? How do you fit all those guys in? So they were kind of in a spot where it seemed like they would maybe want to trade a hitter for pitching, but then they sign waitress Suarez.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And so they don't, they don't really need to trade for pitching. Right. And yet it's almost like the virtue.

[Meg Riley]

Would be in freeing up playing time more than like actually upgrading weak spots. Unless they were to get a good.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Infielder who, you know, they could, they.

[Meg Riley]

Could improve there, which is why people were maybe matchmaking them with Bregman or Bichette or whoever else. So, yeah, I guess, I guess that's a possibility. But man, that's just, that's a strong.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's a strong roster. They project to have the fifth best.

[Meg Riley]

Bullpen right now too. So find the weak spot. It's, it's not not, not particularly weak. That's going to be a heck of a race really. And again it's like the remaining top free agents on the market largely linked.

[Ben Lindbergh]

To AL east teams.

[Meg Riley]

Whether it's Tucker or Bellinger, there are al's teams that are very much in the running or Bichette for that matter. So I look forward to when the dust settles and I do still hope to stat blast that somehow just to see like how this stacks up to previous AL east or just previous times that a division has dominated the off.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Season in terms of like AC more net war than it has lost from the past season, something like that. I imagine the numbers would be pretty eye openening so I hope to have.

[Meg Riley]

Them for you all at some point.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But now we have emails for you and an email answerer.

[John Norton]

Effectively you I O.

[Ben Lindbergh]

T blast the beef boys. Don't sweat less of VP don't taste you bear.

[Michael Bauman]

La la la la la la la la la.

[Ben Lindbergh]

La la la la la la la la. All right.

[Meg Riley]

We are joined now by top tier.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Trout tier Patreon supporter John Norton, who has been waiting patiently for his podcast appearance and now it has arrived, as has he. Hello, John.

[John Norton]

Hello. Hi Ben. Hi, Meg.

[Michael Bauman]

Hi.

[Meg Riley]

Hi.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And as you may know from past.

[Meg Riley]

Patreon person appearances, I always lead off by asking what could have possibly possessed you to support us at this.

[John Norton]

It had been my birthday and I decided to treat myself by honoring my favorite podcast with a donation. And I think, I think I've been listening to you guys for about 15 years now, at least the podcast itself.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So yes, I guess we're not quite.

[Meg Riley]

That old, but we're not really. We're getting there.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, it's.

[Meg Riley]

Let's see, this year will be 14, I guess.

[John Norton]

14. Okay. Huh.

[Meg Riley]

So, yeah, unless you were eavesdropping on our personal conversations before we started recording, then it hasn't quite gotten to 15.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But we're not far from that.

[John Norton]

Okay, maybe 13 years anyway. Yes, I remember my son being very young when I was listening to it. Actually, it's kind of a funny story. He was like 2 years old or something sitting in the back seat of the car and I started playing. I started playing this podcast and he asked, where's Ben? I guess you. Yeah, I guess you were taking the day off.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, I missed one. That, that, that was rare. Yeah, no wonder he was surprised back in those days. And now he must be just about a fully grown person, I guess.

[John Norton]

Yeah. Now he's 15.

[Meg Riley]

Y. Yeah. World, I guess, is the takeaway here. And so is this podcast, but as good as ever, I hope.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And you're still with us after all these years, so we must be doing something right.

[Meg Riley]

Well, we appreciate your support and glad.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That you decided to treat yourself with this podcast appearance and also treat us in the process. And since you were here from the.

[Meg Riley]

Start, were you a Baseball Prospectus reader.

[Ben Lindbergh]

At the time, or how did you stumble across Effectively wild?

[John Norton]

I think I found effectively wild through. Through. Hang up and listen.

[Meg Riley]

Oh, okay. An even older podcast than this one, though.

[Ben Lindbergh]

One that is still going hopefully strong, I hope, and also involves me. So tell us a little bit about your baseball background as a fan or follower of the sport.

[John Norton]

So let's see. So. Well, I grew up in Northern Indiana, so I was a Cubs fan. I first got interested actually in sabermetric. Just kind of by chance, I happen to be hanging around the mall waiting for my wife. And I went to the. To the bookstore in the mall, and they had Bill James's Historical Baseball Abstract. And I just realized there was a lot of interesting stuff in there.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah. So you've been on board for quite a while.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You've witnessed quite an evolution. And are you still a Cubs fan or are you just sort of a fan of the sport?

[John Norton]

I guess I'm more of a Red Sox fan now because they live in the Boston area.

[Meg Riley]

Ah, okay. So you. You must be torn about the Alex Bregman signing. Slash non signing.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, one of your teams got him, one of them lost him. I guess you get Bregman either way. So you're happy. Maybe.

[John Norton]

That's right. Yeah. Plus we have Suarez now, so.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, that cushions the blow of the departure too.

[Meg Riley]

And to the extent that you care.

[Ben Lindbergh]

To share, what do you do or where are you located these days?

[John Norton]

Sure, no problem. Yeah, I live in the metro Boston area, and I'm a statistician in the pharmaceutical industry.

[Michael Bauman]

Wow.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, interesting.

[John Norton]

So, yeah, you have a PhD in statistics.

[Meg Riley]

Well, I guess that maybe makes sense why Bill James's work appealed to you.

[Ben Lindbergh]

For the idea of sabermetrics in general. Right up your alley. So you told me via email that you had a proposal for free agency that you'd care to share.

[Meg Riley]

So I don't know what it is, but. But lay it on us.

[John Norton]

Sure. So, okay, so this was kind of coming from my background in pharma, so I was thinking a baseball player is actually kind of like a drug. Let me explain.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Please do explain. Yeah.

[John Norton]

So when a company's developing a drug, they make a very large upfront investment.

[Meg Riley]

Oh, I see. Yeah.

[John Norton]

And just like when you sign a free agent contract, you're also making a very large upfront investment. And you being a team and you know the risks and the rewards are very uncertain. Right. So what occurred to me was that let's say there were. And sometimes companies share the risks, the costs and rewards of developing something. So I was thinking two teams could do the same thing with a player. Like let's say. Let's say the going rate for a certain free agent is say $300 million. Two teams could split the cost and then somehow they would have to, of course, split that person's services, like maybe have odd year, even year. I mean, there's a lot of wrinkles to this. I'm sure that one could criticize, but that was the basic idea, like split the cost and then split the rewards of hiring that player.

[Meg Riley]

So sort of a free agent timeshare.

[John Norton]

A timeshare, yes, exactly. Maybe doing alternating years, I was going to say.

[Michael Bauman]

It would be interesting to see how this appealed to people. So there'd be any number of potential issues, I suppose, but it seems like a young man's endeavor. Right. Because if you're like 30 and you're a free agent, I think your team knows that the value you're bringing in the contract may well be concentrated in the first couple of years. Like if you sign for five years, if you're alternating year after year and you get the cliff year, where the decline really sets in. Well, you'd feel. You'd feel pretty annoyed by that, presumably. But how would you know? So maybe you could get like a, A discount. The, like the, the ratio of the contract could change over time, you know, whereas you get deeper into the. Yeah, I'm trying to make it work.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I guess even if you're trying to sort of hedge against the risk, you probably have to pay a premium to.

[Meg Riley]

Get the player to agree to this arrangement. Right. Because your, your typical free agent isn't.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Going to want to do this. Right.

[John Norton]

Yeah.

[Meg Riley]

And so maybe that kind of undoes whatever you get out of.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And, you know, I guess you're sort of spreading the risk around, but also the potential reward because if this guy.

[Meg Riley]

Is good, then you're only having him half the time.

[John Norton]

Yeah.

[Meg Riley]

And I guess, yeah, you'd have to.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Work it out so that the timeshare.

[Meg Riley]

Probably wouldn't be with a division rival.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It had to be someone in another league that you don't play as often or.

[John Norton]

Interesting point. Yeah.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah. And then because if you're a free.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Agent probably, I guess it's sort of.

[Meg Riley]

A hedge for the player too in a sense. Because if that team tanks right, if that team stinks or he ends up not liking where he signed or something, then he gets to play somewhere else.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Part of the time. But also seems pretty disruptive just in.

[Meg Riley]

Terms of your personal life. And you know, you, you got to maintain multiple residences and your family is.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Living here one year and there another year and your kids are transferring schools or who knows, you're kind of commuting.

[Meg Riley]

So that seems potentially problematic. So you'd, you'd probably have to pay more to get someone to agree to that. And then maybe you're not really reaping any of the rewards of, of decreased risk that you set out to in the first place.

[Michael Bauman]

I wonder if everyone who wanted to do this would end up concentrated with like the Diamondbacks and then the Florida teams. Because it's like, well, if you have to maintain two residences, you may as well have one of them be in a place where you might do spring training.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Michael Bauman]

Then you can at least stick around.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Or I guess even same city teams that are in different leagues. Right.

[Meg Riley]

Cubs, White Sox, Yankees, Mets or something.

[John Norton]

Although the Yankees would, would, would probably just want to buy the whole contract, right?

[Meg Riley]

Maybe not.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Not these days. I guess the Yankees and the Mets.

[Meg Riley]

Are sharing a lot of players these days.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Keep acquiring ex Yankees. But, but yeah, those, those teams in the same cities, they tend to have.

[Meg Riley]

A rivalry even if it's not head to head in the standings or in the division. Obviously you're fighting for fans affections and.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I wonder what that would do to.

[Meg Riley]

Your standing in that city and your fan base. Because probably everyone hates you. Probably.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right.

[Meg Riley]

Because.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right. You can't have it both ways. You can't kind of play for both sides. I think they would probably both fan bases would disown you because you have.

[Meg Riley]

Not committed fully to either of them. Right.

[John Norton]

And so yeah, if they were rivals, I guess that could be problematic.

[Michael Bauman]

Otherwise we don't see any.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Other than that. Smooth sailing. Yeah. No, there'd be conspiracies about you being.

[Meg Riley]

Some sort of double agent or something. It's like you signed with this team and now you're trying to sabotage that other team on off years.

[Michael Bauman]

Well, when I was a teenager I would, I hope, I hope neither sets of my parents are listening to this. If I, if I knew that there was a party I wanted to go to, I would try to be at my dad's house instead of my mom's because my curfew was an hour and a half later. At my dad's and it wasn't my mom. So I would like arbitrage curfews and I don't know what the free agent equivalent of that is, but I feel like there's, there's gotta be something right. When you're trying to game. Game the system.

[John Norton]

Facial hair. Well, well, well, I guess all the teams allow facial hair now, but, you know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right, yeah.

[John Norton]

Otherwise you could.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right. Yeah, you'd have to grow it and then shave it and you know, people like switching up their looks from one year to the next.

[Michael Bauman]

Yeah, maybe that's it. Maybe that's the, the free agent equivalent of wanting to drink, you know, Rainier Tall boys in Seattle Public park.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Or if you're a two way player, if you're Ohtani, you sign with a.

[Meg Riley]

A team that's renowned for great pitcher development and you pitch for that team and you hit for the other team. That doesn't really work because he does both in the same game. And also I guess he could just sign with the Dodgers, who are believed to be good at both and everything.

[Michael Bauman]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So that's maybe more efficient. But yeah, we have considered some hypotheticals in the past that are more along.

[Meg Riley]

The lines of, of someone who's just a mercenary and is kind of, you know, hawking their wares, playing their trade from start to start or week to week and just kind of auctioning off their services just sequentially throughout the season. We have an email that's sort of along those lines. But yeah, that idea of just like, well, you could just be a starting.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Pitcher and say, I will start the next game for the highest bidder and, and then whoever wants me the most, I will go, go there. Just, you know, like, have glove, will travel kind of arrangement. And, and I remember considering the clubhouse ramifications of that because you'd never fit.

[Meg Riley]

In anywhere and everyone would look at.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You as some kind of carpet bagger wherever you went and.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah, right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So the, the other thing that crispy though, I guess is it's not totally.

[Meg Riley]

Unlike developing a drug. Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Because you develop a player. The, the idea with developing a drug is, is that you pour a ton.

[Meg Riley]

Of money into the R and D and then if it's effective, then it's highly lucrative for you. Right. As long as you hold the patent or whatever until someone produces the generic version. Right. And so the idea is that, well, you maybe want to encourage the companies.

[Ben Lindbergh]

To pour money into research and development.

[Meg Riley]

Especially if the government's not going to do it, because that's the only way.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That you end up with effective therapies.

[Meg Riley]

But then the problem is that of course, maybe those companies want to profit.

[Ben Lindbergh]

A little too much and then they end up up gouging the intended recipients, et cetera.

[Meg Riley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And then maybe you need some price controls on that. Anyway, the point is that that's the.

[Meg Riley]

Model, I guess, is that you spend a lot of money up front because you hope that it will be worth your while in the long run.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But that does, I guess, already apply to player development in baseball.

[Meg Riley]

Right. Because in baseball you draft a player and you give them a big bonus and in some cases at least, and then you cultivate their talent as they work their way up through the minors and everything. And you're not really seeing a direct learn in those years.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But then if they develop into a.

[Meg Riley]

Productive big leaguer, then the whole arbitration free agency system is sort of set up for teams to profit from that for the first several years of that player's career. And I guess when you reach free agency, that's when that wears off for the team.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Maybe like that's, maybe that's when the.

[Meg Riley]

Generic drug is developed or something and.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You lose control of that market. Maybe. But for the first few years, especially in the pre arb years, then you're.

[Meg Riley]

Making money hand over fist on that player and everything that you sunk into their development, if it pans out, you're rewarded, I don't know, a hundredfold or something just because they're giving you so much more production than you could get on the open market for equivalent play.

[John Norton]

So that's an interesting point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was definitely thinking of the free agent stage, but I guess there's, there's probably some analogy to make earlier too.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, interesting. Okay. All right, well, let's discuss some other interesting hypotheticals. And I guess sticking with the theme, this is sort of a similar question from listener Harry, subject line, lifelong pillow contract earnings question. And Harry says the Bregman and Alonzo pillow contracts from last year brought up my mind again. By the way, can you call it a pillow contract if it is a.

[Meg Riley]

Multi year deal and the player ends up opting out?

[Ben Lindbergh]

I don't know if I would call.

[Meg Riley]

That a pure pillow. I guess to me, I think Bregman's.

[Michael Bauman]

Deal is a pillow. Like it was just understood he was likely to opt out. You know what I mean?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, like, yeah, but there's at least multi year potential to it. I kind of think of like the.

[Meg Riley]

The platonic pillow contract being Adrian Beltray with the Red Sox or something. Where it's just like you really are signing for one year and you're then.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Hoping that it's a soft landing and then you can parlay that into a bigger long term deal. Whereas with Bregman or Alonzo there was.

[Meg Riley]

At least a multi year pact and there was pillow potential because you could opt out and capitalize if you had a good year, but if you didn't.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Have a good year then you would.

[Meg Riley]

Still have some security longer term.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So I don't know. I guess it's it's pillow ish, it's pillow adjacent. But this is what made Harry ask this question. Some players like Nelson Cruz and Josh Bell seem to get one year contracts.

[Meg Riley]

And play for practically every team at a decent average annual value.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You which players have the greatest lifetime earnings, getting one year contracts for seemingly.

[Meg Riley]

Forever and having a productive career despite not getting that luxurious long term deal every player strives for. So basically someone who went year by year for their whole career and it actually worked out for them.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Which I think is also a a situation we've considered on the podcast.

[Meg Riley]

Like should more players do that? Because if you bet on yourself and.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That bet keeps paying off then it could benefit you. Of course. So I put this question to Jeff Houston who operates COT contracts because I thought he might have some names at hand and he writes that this is a question perhaps tied to player health.

[Meg Riley]

The prime example that comes to mind.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Is Noah Syndergaard who had one year.

[Meg Riley]

Deals throughout his career even as a free agent. Pitchers have it rough, they do well just to stay healthy for six years.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Two other names come to mind, Jeff's mind that is.

[Meg Riley]

But they both got multi year deals eventually.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Edwin Jackson signed a four year deal with the Cubs at age 29 but.

[Meg Riley]

Otherwise was year to year while pitching almost everywhere.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And of course a name familiar to effectively wild listeners and a name that came to my mind as I was reading this question. Rich Hill signed for three years with the Dodgers at age 37 but had.

[Meg Riley]

One year contracts every other year of his career. That probably had a lot to do.

[Ben Lindbergh]

With his role starter, reliever, swingman as well as middling production.

[Meg Riley]

How dare you Jack and stuff. How dare you double.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Another group of perennial candidates for one year deals are position players hovering around league average production. Often role players.

[Meg Riley]

Mike Tman seems to be there now. Tommy Fam effectively wild favorite Gio Urchella, Adam Frazier, Ty France the one premium.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Player who comes to mind is late.

[Meg Riley]

Model Roger Clemens who was year to year for the last five years of his career in New York and Houston and yeah, we've talked about that Clemens model, which is almost sort of similar to what you were laying out, John. But yeah, just kind of going year to year and who wants me most and also who will give me the best deal so I don't have to travel more than I want to or whatever.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So it is hard to come up.

[Meg Riley]

With an example of someone who really had a long, lucrative, productive career and never signed a multi year deal and just went, went year to year forever. And of course, you know, every player essentially signs a multi year deal at the beginning of their professional career when they sign their first contract and they're under team control for several years. But even after reaching free agency. Yeah, it just, it doesn't happen all that often because if you're really good.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Then you tend to command a long.

[Meg Riley]

Term deal at some point or if you're healthy. Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So if you're Cindergard, who obviously was.

[Meg Riley]

Was good for a while but then didn't stay good and got hurt, but if he had continued to pitch at a high level, then maybe he could have signed a long term deal at some point.

[John Norton]

Yeah. You know, I was just thinking there's a certain kind of asymmetry here where like long term contracts really are really more important to the players. Right. In the sense that because the player actually has a risk of getting injured. Right. It's like, you know, the Yankers or whatever team is, you know, won't suddenly stop having money, you know, but if the player gets severely injured, they may not be able to play anymore. So I think in general it's really in the player's interest to have the long term contract, you know, no matter how appealing it may be to be open to any bidder every year.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. And I guess for some of the same reasons we were citing earlier when we were talking about your proposal. It's just that it's kind of a pain to move.

[John Norton]

Move a lot.

[Ben Lindbergh]

As Meg and I have remarked often moving stinks even if you're very wealthy and you can afford to streamline that.

[Meg Riley]

Process and have people pack for you and stuff.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's just, it's still, it's tough to.

[Meg Riley]

Just uproot your life, especially if you have other people in your life who.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Are traveling with you. And so ultimately everyone just does decide.

[Meg Riley]

To sign that multi year deal if they can.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But it is an intriguing idea of just, no, I'm taking my chances. Because of course you could get paid a premium if you just went year.

[Meg Riley]

To year and you stayed good and stayed Available for a really long time then you would make much more money.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Than you would otherwise. Because obviously there's a trade off. When a team sends you to a long term deal they extend a lower average annual value as a consequence of that.

[Michael Bauman]

I tend to think that this demonstrates the stabilizing effective agents because we don't see guys like wanting to go year to year. But surely in a population of like confident young men someone out there is like I want to bet on me every year.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Bauman]

And they don't really do that. I mean I think that there are times when, when guys do in a calculated way and it isn't always bad to take the pillow contract. We see that payoff for guys all the time. But does come with risk. Obviously the answer is pretty different for position players versus pitchers too because like if you blow out, what are you going to do?

[Meg Riley]

You know I, I hate to invoke the name but I guess it is relevant here. This is something that a pre disgraced Trevor Bauer did express a desire to do.

[Michael Bauman]

That's right.

[Meg Riley]

It was his intention at one time. I am looking at a tweet from Jeff passon back in 2018. Trevor Bauer says he's never signing a long term deal, only one year contracts.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Why? Turns out he made a bet with a friend. If he ever signs a multi year deal, the friend gets to shoot him.

[Meg Riley]

In the nuts with a paintball gun from 10ft away.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And you know what, I don't know that many people would be upset if that had happened knowing what we know about Trevor Bauer. And I guess even Trevor Bauer ultimately.

[Meg Riley]

Did sign a multi year deal with the Dodgers. Right. Which they had reason to regret.

[John Norton]

Wonder if his friend collected.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I hope so. But you know even that deal had.

[Meg Riley]

Opt outs after the first couple years which obviously weren't exercised because Trevor Bauer. But this was something that he expressed a desire to do. Having confidence in his ability to I guess stay healthy and have his arm be intact.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So we'll never know whether he would.

[Meg Riley]

Have stuck to that or whether it would have worked out for him.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I assume that eventually someone will come along with the same, same idea if.

[Meg Riley]

Not the same rationale and, and maybe we'll see whether it works out for them too.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But people appreciate security. Now obviously given the amount of money.

[Meg Riley]

That players make these days, you could.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Say that they do have security.

[Meg Riley]

They certainly have security.

[Ben Lindbergh]

As, as most of us would define financial security. You know, you sign one one year.

[Meg Riley]

Deal for 20 million or whatever.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Most of us would consider that being sort of set for life. Right. So if you have made that amount.

[Meg Riley]

Of money, then you could.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right. And it's just like what's the marginal value of the next 20 million or.

[Meg Riley]

200 million or whatever it is. So, you know, I could see someone.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Reaching that conclusion and saying, well, I have enough to get by if something goes south. But then again, I guess you could.

[Meg Riley]

Also say I have enough and therefore I don't necessarily have to absolutely maximize my earnings at the cost of.

[John Norton]

Right.

[Michael Bauman]

Yeah. You don't have to max out every deal necessarily.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah, yeah. That said, I think most free agents do. Right. Or they try to. Right. I mean, it's not common that free agents will take sizable pay cuts or hometown discounts or something. It happens sometimes. But. But yeah, you could say, you know, why subject myself to the vagaries of health and not knowing where I'm going to play and not being able to plan my personal life long term and everything, if it's just a matter of making just unimaginably more money when I.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Already have more than I ever dreamed I would.

[John Norton]

So it's funny, people don't. People don't really seem to think that way though, in general.

[Ben Lindbergh]

No. No, they don't. And I guess that's. That's a part of the way that people who end up with an enormous amount of money end up with an enormous amount of money because they can never get enough. Okay, here is one from listener Matt. I was listening to your conversation about Michael Lorenzen joining the Rockies.

[Meg Riley]

And while you two discussed his two.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Way aspirations and how Colorado was the perfect place to test them, my mind wandered and.

[Meg Riley]

How dare you. Your mind wandered while listening to effectively Wild, Rude.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I began to imagine, began to imagine whether I would want to play for the Rockies. I was usually the worst or one of the worst players on my team at every level, but I nonetheless dreamed.

[Meg Riley]

Of playing in the majors as a little kid.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I have no doubt that if I were somehow on the Rockies, I would.

[Meg Riley]

Not only be the worst player in the league, league, as would likely every.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Effectively wild listener, even if I'd probably be worse than most. Hey, I'm sure there are some players.

[Meg Riley]

Who occasionally listen to us if.

[Ben Lindbergh]

If only the ones who have been on the podcast.

[Meg Riley]

They have in a way, heard effectively.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Wild and listened, but by far the worst MLB player ever.

[Meg Riley]

By far.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And that would come with a virality and media circus that would likely be pretty unpleasant. But I do wonder if the chance to play ball, to tour every big league city and ballpark, to see the country and Meet all these players if.

[Meg Riley]

That would be too good to pass up. I also think that while likely most.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Fans and the Stephen A. Smith types.

[Meg Riley]

Would roast me if he, you know, bothered to talk about baseball, which doesn't.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Happen all that often, there would be a contingent rooting for the everyday schlub.

[Meg Riley]

As my partner put it years ago.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I remember Sam and Ben discussing the.

[Meg Riley]

War of a random person playing in the majors. But mine is a more personal and emotional question.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Would you knowingly be by far the.

[Meg Riley]

Worst big leaguer ever and step into that media circus and infamy for the chance to chase the dream? I think this is something Sam and I considered at some points in ancient, effectively wild history as well. And I know Sam wrote about it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

For ESPN and about whether you should.

[Meg Riley]

Want to do this, and I think he concluded no.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But what do you think, John? Would you want to be the worst MLB player ever?

[John Norton]

I guess it kind of depends on how much of your self esteem, depends on your athletic performance. Like, yeah, you know, I don't really think of myself as a jock, so like, you know, being like the worst MLB player ever might be a step up, I guess, or just, you know, you know, it might be just kind of fun, but, you know, but I could see like, I don't know, if someone was like, you know, had a pretty good, like solid high school or college career who, you know, maybe takes pride in being a good athlete, then that'd be pretty deflating.

[Michael Bauman]

I like the idea of like stepping into a scrum of reporters and they're, they're trying to find a tactful way to be like, so, hey, hey, you were really bad tonight. What do you think about that? And you're just like, I'm doing great. You should see me tonight. Compared to high school, I'm on the up and up.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah, it's really bad tonight.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I'm terrible every night. What are you talking about? You're surprised? Yeah. But does it get better than this? Baby? Yeah. Yeah. No, I would not want to do this. No. I mean, for one thing, I never.

[Meg Riley]

Really had aspirations of playing. I never dreamed of playing. You know, maybe partly because I was.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Just realistic, but, but also because I just, I, I didn't really want that lifestyle. Maybe that sounds hard to believe, but there's just, there's so much that goes.

[Meg Riley]

Along with being a, a professional athlete.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That doesn't really appeal to me. Obviously there are a lot of aspects of it that, that do sound appealing.

[Meg Riley]

You know, the aforementioned mega contracts that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

We were just talking about, but but no, I guess I never really loved playing enough to want to do that at that level because, you know, I was an okay baseball player and, and.

[Meg Riley]

I, I stopped playing before I was forced to. You know, like they didn't tear the uniform off my back. Like I didn't get to the point where people were even throwing hard enough or throwing nasty enough pitches that I.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Realized I couldn't hit them. So it wasn't that so much.

[Michael Bauman]

Got to retire at the right time.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I walked away on my own terms, which was just like, I have.

[Meg Riley]

To go to practice on the weekend.

[Ben Lindbergh]

No thanks. I'd rather play video games or read a book or something. So, you know, much as I liked playing and still like playing in an informal fashion and just meeting up with friends or something, but the competitive aspect.

[Meg Riley]

Of it never really appealed to me. So I didn't really want to test my mettle and my might on the field. Exactly.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I kind of like just playing recreationally.

[Meg Riley]

So I did not have the eye of the tiger when it came to kind of playing sports.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I just, I had fun, you know, I just like a laid back game where everyone has fun. So I don't have the, the pro.

[Meg Riley]

Athlete mentality, let alone the talent.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And yeah, if, if I were to do this, it would feel and be entirely unearned, obviously. So I, I wouldn't feel as if I had accomplished anything. Right. Like I. None of the cachet that comes along.

[Meg Riley]

With being a big leaguer. There's a reason why that's sort of a high status job because it's so.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Hard to do and you have to make so many sacrifices to do it and you have to be part of the 0.001 or whatever percent of the population that has the skill and works hard enough to do it and everything. And so if you just skip everything and just somehow I don't know if.

[Meg Riley]

It'S like a pay to play scheme or, or what you just get to do this for whatever reason, then I don't think any of the typical benefits would be conferred upon you and it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Would just be almost all downside, I think. I don't, I don't really know that it would actually be that pleasurable a pastime for you.

[John Norton]

I guess I could see this being kind of like a fantasy camp scenario. You know, we're just sitting on the bench for a week or something, you know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But yeah, that. Okay, yeah, sure. Like just kind of getting to live the big league lifestyle without actually playing.

[Meg Riley]

Like you're just kind of get to hang out yeah, you get to hang with the players, you get to travel with the players, live in big league.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Luxury, you know, get to know them.

[Meg Riley]

That I could see being appealing maybe. And, and that is I guess, why they offer fantasy camps and, you know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Stuff like that and why you can.

[Meg Riley]

Kind of do that if you want to with former players or whatever.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And you can sort of indulge that dream without out the downsides because there aren't such stakes. Because I actually, I don't think there.

[Meg Riley]

Would be a very big contingent rooting for this person because I think it would be seen as a very self centered, selfish activity. I mean, maybe for a, a game.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Or something, it would be interesting just sort of as an experiment to see like how bad an average person would.

[Meg Riley]

Be and maybe it would be kind.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Of relatable to sort of see yourself in that player and, you know, you're the ultimate underdog, I guess, except that you're not really, because you're, you're kind of like privileged, you know, you're, you're.

[Meg Riley]

Jumped up, you're placed in this position without having done anything to deserve it. So I don't think anyone really would be rooting for you. They would just be like, stop hogging the spotlight. Especially fans of the team would, would hate you.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right.

[John Norton]

Like even if, especially if you hurt the team. Right?

[Michael Bauman]

Yeah.

[John Norton]

Like, imagine if you got, if it was like the final out of the game, you know?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right. Yeah.

[Meg Riley]

Glad you get to live your, your dream here.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Meanwhile, you just made us lose.

[Meg Riley]

So.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Thanks a lot. Yeah, no, I, even if you were one of the fans, I think they.

[Meg Riley]

Would quickly turn on you because you.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Made it all about you. And, and in a way it's, it's.

[Meg Riley]

Being a bad fan because you are.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You'Re tanking the team's fortunes.

[Meg Riley]

You're sabotaging the team for your own.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Personal pleasure and gain.

[Michael Bauman]

I could imagine, like if other people don't know, right, if they think that you just got there somehow and you didn't insist on playing and you, you knew things like, what if you were you and you had like an understanding of sabermetrics and you had some statistical acumen and you're just like hanging in the dugout. Well, maybe could you play badly enough, but in a small enough dose that they're like, well, we don't want them on the team, but maybe he should be a coach. Like, could you parlay it into a useful, interesting bit of business with the team? You wouldn't be making big league money anymore, but that might be okay. Like, maybe you just want to be.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Around, you know, Maybe.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Although I think you kind of have to like, earn your spot, sort of.

[Meg Riley]

So you're right. If you have actual wisdom to impart and you're. You're contributing in some way, you're giving and not just taking, then I think your presence could be tolerated or welcomed. But.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, that actually reminds me. Sam and I sort of had this opportunity not in the majors, but in the Pacific association. And it is definitely something we talked.

[Meg Riley]

About just in order to basically get.

[Ben Lindbergh]

A baseball reference page for us, you know?

[John Norton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

If we had just inserted ourselves into a 2015 Sonoma Stoppers game, we'd be on Baseball Reference.

[Meg Riley]

And wouldn't that be kind of cool?

[Ben Lindbergh]

And we could have done it, you know, we could have.

[Meg Riley]

It could have been like, do it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

For the story, do it for the book and see what it's like. And there would be something nice about.

[Meg Riley]

Being memorialized in all the baseball databases, you know, and to like be part of the MLB record in some way.

[Ben Lindbergh]

If you did that in the majors and we could have done it in.

[Meg Riley]

Some low stakes end of season game.

[Ben Lindbergh]

In a blowout or something, and we could have just.

[Meg Riley]

Just thrown one pitch or stood in left field for a batter or something.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You know, probably unobtrusive and.

[Meg Riley]

And we could have entered ourselves into the official record of professional baseball.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And that was sort of tempting, but we didn't do it for, I think, all these reasons that I'm laying out there. Because a. I think the players would.

[Meg Riley]

Have resented it, you know, even if it was late in the season, after they had gotten to know us and everything.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I think there was still sort of.

[Meg Riley]

A divide where it was tough enough for us to justify our place in the dugout or in the clubhouse.

[Ben Lindbergh]

If we had then crossed over onto.

[Meg Riley]

The field, then I think that would have been seen as just intrusive and just kind of know your place, nerd.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You know, and like, this is our province.

[John Norton]

I guess it's kind of a stolen valor thing, you know, like.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, exactly.

[John Norton]

It's like, why are you pitting on that metal? You know, you didn't earn it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. And I think part of our calculus, the case that we made to the players was kind of what you were just saying, Meg, that we can actually help you.

[Meg Riley]

We can obtain all this technology and we can get video and we can.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Show you replays and we can give you data and we can help.

[Meg Riley]

We can actually be part of this effort in some way.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I don't think that we could.

[Meg Riley]

Have justified that we were helping anyone or anything if we had inserted ourselves into a game. And so that just would have undercut our message and would have made them.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Question all of our motives, really. And it would have been sort of a. A sideshow. And. And even for the purposes of the book and sort of, hey, what if we were able to run a team and we did all these things that we thought were smart and would help the team be better? We could not have made the case.

[Meg Riley]

That playing personally would make the team better. So I. I think it would have been kind of hypocritical.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And even if you did this in the majors, just to do it for the story and to get your photo and to get your baseball reference page.

[Meg Riley]

And your fan graphs page and all.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The rest, I think it would be almost like a. It would hang around my neck.

[Meg Riley]

It would be like a. I. I might be more ashamed of it than I was.

[Michael Bauman]

You're taking somebody's spot.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah, right. There's the roster consideration, too.

[Michael Bauman]

Right. Some young guy has been working his whole life, and you're just hanging out to, what, make money? I shouldn't have said yes so. So confidently that you guys would have hurt the team with your own athleticism. I was thinking by a. Ben, I wasn't trying to be a jerk.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, well, I think. And the reason why it's so seductive.

[Meg Riley]

The idea of, oh, we could have.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Our own player page, is because it's.

[Meg Riley]

Meaningful to have your own player page.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Because you have to actually earn it.

[Meg Riley]

Usually, to get that. And it signifies something about everything that you did to get to that point. And so. So if you just cut all the corners and skipped straight past that process, then it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It would not actually mean what it means to everyone else. When we do our Meet a Major Leaguer segment, it's predicated on the idea that just being a big leaguer, however briefly, and even if, you know, if you don't play well, it's still an incredible accomplishment that is limited to a small group of people in the history of humanity.

[Meg Riley]

And so it would water down the honor if we gave it to ourselves, essentially.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Now, if we could somehow separate all of these consequences from it and just simulate the experience.

[Meg Riley]

Absolutely. You know, if we're on the holodeck, you know, if this is just like a VR simulation or something of being a big leaguer, then, yeah, by all means, that would be.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I mean, it might also be sort of scary to actually stand in there and face major league pitching and everything that might not actually Be as fun as. As it sounds. It might be humbling and terrifying. Yeah, but. But that I would do to.

[Meg Riley]

To get a sense of what that would feel like without all of the associated downsides.

[Michael Bauman]

I. I have two thoughts about that. The first is that I am, like, highly embarrassable. And so the notion of doing this and in front of people on tv. Absolutely not. Also, if you come up with holodeck technology, I don't think you have to worry about making big league money. You're gonna. You gotta. You got a great side biz. You know, that's. That's a good secondary hustle. You got a holodeck. Oh, my God.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Riley]

You have actually made the metaverse happen. But, I mean, often the holodeck just goes haywire and that leads to its own problems. But always. Not always, no.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So. So yes, that's low stakes scenario where.

[Meg Riley]

We could simulate it, get a taste, but without the bitter aftertaste. I'd absolutely be into that. But in real life, no. But I don't think anyone's offering anyway.

[John Norton]

I guess the holodeck could also simulate all the, like, social advantages of being a. A major leaguer and getting the adoration and so forth.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, right. I guess if you just want to inflate your own ego, you can have an AI girlfriend. Yeah. You can simulate being a sports superstar and all the adulation that goes along with that. Yeah, well, whatever floats your boat, I guess. As long as. As long as no one's being harmed. But sometimes people are harmed by the holodeck. It's a problem. Okay, here's a question from Philip.

[Michael Bauman]

It's a problem. You know, you're always hearing about it being a problem. The holodeck.

[Ben Lindbergh]

What percentage of holodeck centric Star Trek.

[Meg Riley]

Episodes has it been a problem?

[Ben Lindbergh]

A significant percentage.

[Michael Bauman]

Yeah. When it is the A plot, it tends to be something's gone wrong.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Or it could be a harmless mystery or something, but. But also, sometimes things go on. Okay.

[Michael Bauman]

Those guys took over the ship. They made the whole ship a holodeck.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That was.

[Michael Bauman]

That was on Voyager.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yep. Institutional hazard.

[Meg Riley]

All right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Fellow Patreon supporter Philip says question I've been pondering. Baseball. People consistently give extra credit or special attention to switch hitters when they are good, implicitly because they are good despite doing such a hard thing. This doesn't make sense to me. Switch hitting is a choice a player.

[Meg Riley]

Makes to gain an advantage, I. E. The platoon advantage.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It is one of the ways to.

[Meg Riley]

Try to be good, like opting for a lift and pull approach or going.

[Ben Lindbergh]

For an all fields approach, etc. I don't think we gave, for example, Prime Joey Votto extra credit for choosing to try to succeed by being so.

[Meg Riley]

Picky with swing choices. If anything, people took away credit for.

[Ben Lindbergh]

From Joey Votto for doing that. Why do we do it for switch hitters? Switch hitting is extremely hard to be good at, but no one is forced to do it.

[Meg Riley]

This isn't some Mike Trout forced debilitation scenario after all.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Is this just about the advantages it affords? Lineup construction?

[Meg Riley]

Is this take way off?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Literally everyone I discuss this with thinks so. And accordingly, I love that Philip still had the.

[Michael Bauman]

The try one more time.

[Meg Riley]

Maybe.

[Michael Bauman]

These are a bunch of weirdos. They want to hit on the field.

[John Norton]

I kind of appreciate the kind of reductionism of this. I mean, if I understand correctly, I mean, I guess at some point you could say, well, the value of anything a baseball player does is just war. And, you know, we shouldn't really give them extra credit for flexibility. You should just look at, you know, how much value they're bringing. But that seems kind of boring if you think of it that way. Like, I think they're. I think it's good to give extra credit for being, you know, different.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So. So Philip says that literally everyone he discusses this with thinks that his take is way off. And so accordingly, I will give one.

[Meg Riley]

Or both of you money to grant some legitimacy to this question. And I guess he has by supporting.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Us on Patreon, and we have now aired it on the podcast. So I don't know whether that grants it legitimacy or not.

[Meg Riley]

Not unreasonable, I guess, to think that we would respond positively to a question.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That everyone else in Philip's like, life as condemned. That's probably pretty routine, I would guess, but. But I probably have to side with, with the mob here, Philip. Well, I don't. Maybe it's just a semantic thing because Philip is conceding that being a switch hitter is hard.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah, but. But then he's saying that that doesn't make it more impressive, I guess when.

[Ben Lindbergh]

When a switch hitter succeeds, essentially I, I see what he's saying here. Right. Because it is very hard to switch.

[Meg Riley]

Hit at a major league level. And so I think it makes sense to be impressed by that. I am impressed by that because, you know, not that I could actually hit at a major league level with my dominant side either, but, you know, to think of doing it with the other.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Side is, Is even more inconceivable. So physically I think it is more.

[Meg Riley]

Challenging and there's a even smaller group of people who could make that work.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But it is true that if you.

[Meg Riley]

Can make it work, it makes your job easier in Major League Baseball. Right. So I don't disagree with that.

[Michael Bauman]

It makes keeping your job easier in Major League Baseball. It's still incredibly hard.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, it is. Yes. It's hard to maintain two swings and everything.

[Michael Bauman]

Yeah. In fact, we spend more time these days, I think, encouraging guys to. To stop switching than we do praising the ones who are good at it. Because often there's just like an, you know, a noticeable and meaningful gap in how good they are from one side of the plate versus the other. And they might be able to do better by just committing to. To the one side and swinging from there more often, even. Even with the platoon disadvantage or what have you. But, but part of this maybe goes back to my instincts around the prior question, which is. It's just so amazing to me that anyone can do any of this. Well, because I can't. Which is part of why I would be so embarrassable if I were put in a big league uniform. I'd be like, this is going to be a really bad day at work every day for and for so many days. That's the other part of it that would be terrible. It's just like you're there for so long being the worst at your job every day. That would be terrible. Maybe. Maybe part of the issue is that I don't, like, think about it as it being something that's like, commendable. Right. It's not virtuous. It's impressive. Right. Maybe that's where I'm getting kind of tripped up in the, in the question where it's like, well, we're applauding them for the skill. We're not applauding them because they're like. I mean, I guess we do. We. We applaud them to some degree because they're doing the difficult twice in a way that not everyone can do. But it's not a virtue question. Like, we wouldn't, we wouldn't be like, oh, that's not impressive if a pitcher added a fourth pitch to their repertoire. We wouldn't be like, well, you're only doing that because it's valuable. It's like, well, yeah, but. Right, but then it is valuable. You know what I mean? So it's just like, I am sorry to leave you on an island and it can still that you have found no one that backs up your perspective. And I think you're right that this is maybe Just a semantic difference which in that case perfect podcast to send it to again. You know, like you did well both times.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But, but it is true that if you have the capacity to switch hit.

[Meg Riley]

Every switch hitter has the option to stop switch hitting.

[Michael Bauman]

Sure.

[Meg Riley]

And some of them do and maybe some of them who don't should. But. But they all could and they opt not to because they think that switch hitting gives them advantages. It makes it easier for them. Right. I mean it confers a platoon advantage upon them and they pursue that advantage because it's easier to hit opposite handed pitching. And so yes, it is harder to maybe maintain multiple swings and, and have.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Different vantage points and everything.

[Meg Riley]

But on balance they think that they are better at baseball or that baseball is, is easier for them.

[Michael Bauman]

I just don't know that they are thinking about it in terms of it being easier. Right? They're thinking about it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They're thinking in terms of being an advantage, I think. Right, right.

[Michael Bauman]

But I don't know that they're like, oh, it's easier. I think they're still like this is still really freaking hard. But I'm able to do it well from both sides. I don't know, maybe we need to culp rent Rooker and be like, do people talk about switch hitters as if it's easier year? Yeah, I'm just thinking of big leaguers we talk to every now and again.

[John Norton]

You know, I mean this seems like just a variation on the Shohei Ohtani question. Right. It's like should we be impressed by him being a two way player? You know, in addition to, you know, like it's, it's like sh. Otani versus like Aaron Judge or something.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right, Right. Yeah, I, I'm. Maybe we don't disagree with Philip. It's as you said, it's John.

[Meg Riley]

It's not like we're giving more credit to switch hitters in WAR or something.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And they're. There is just an inherent advantage for.

[Meg Riley]

Certain types of players in Major League Baseball. That's why lefties are so overrepresented.

[Michael Bauman]

Left handed.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah. Right. Because you get the platoon advantage most of the time. Of course, if you're a lefty position.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Player, there are certain positions that you can't play as easily or aren't allowed.

[Meg Riley]

To play, but you get the platoon advantage more often. And if you're a lefty pitcher, then you get an advantage. There's a, a familiarity effect or lack of familiarity effect and you can get by with lesser stuff or speed a.

[Ben Lindbergh]

La Ranger Suarez for instance. Maybe you know, that plays up a.

[Meg Riley]

Bit because he is a lefty. And you just still see fewer lefties.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Even though you see many more lefties in the majors than you do in the general population. So maybe I kind of agree with Philip, but.

[Meg Riley]

But what, Ben?

[Ben Lindbergh]

I kind of like.

[Michael Bauman]

No, you don't. You're just being contrary.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I think. Think I. Because he is conceding that switch hitting is extremely hard to be good at and that it's.

[Meg Riley]

It's impressive that they're good at that thing, which I think we would all agree about. But then if you are good at that thing, then it's.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It. It doesn't actually make it because, like.

[Meg Riley]

Some players are actually naturally ambidextrous, or at least, you know, when their brains.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Were plastic enough to sort of pick up being proficient with multiple hands, you know, whatever their.

[Meg Riley]

Their parents coach them to do that or something.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And so to them, maybe by that.

[Meg Riley]

Point it is sort of second nature. And so they are continuing to do it because it gives them an advantage.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And so, like, for instance, when we talk About Cal rallies 2025 season, and.

[Meg Riley]

We talk about all of the home run records, he said, and he set.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The Mariners franchise home run record record.

[Meg Riley]

And he set the catcher home run.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Record, multiple catcher home run records, you.

[Meg Riley]

Know, people who were actually playing catcher.

[Ben Lindbergh]

When they hit the home run or.

[Meg Riley]

Players who played catcher a majority of.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The time in the season when they were hitting the home runs. And he also set the home run record for switch hitters. He broke Mickey Mantle's record. And, you know, that was cited as an impressive thing. Right? But I think it's far more impressive.

[Meg Riley]

That he hit the most home runs as a catcher because that makes it harder to hit home runs because, like, you don't play as much, because wear.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And tear, at least for most catchers, Cal Rally just plays anyway. And, you know, it just takes a toll on you physically, and there's such a defensive load and, and you're expected to devote so much of your attention to preparing to work with your pitchers and, and all of that, that makes it harder to hit home runs. But his being a switch hitter doesn't.

[Meg Riley]

Make it harder for him to hit home runs. Right? It. It makes it, if anything, easier for him to hit home runs given that he has the talent to be a switch hitter, which he does.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right. So it's.

[Meg Riley]

I do think it's sort of a semantic thing.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And, you know, it's like there aren't that many switch hitters these days. There are fewer than there have been.

[Meg Riley]

At, At Various periods. And so maybe that suggests that it, it really is hard to not specialize, to be a generalist, to hit from both sides, to swing both ways, as they say in this context and only this context.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And so maybe that makes it more impressive. But also once you make it as a switch hitter, then I'm sympathetic to the argument that it, it's actually all upside. You know, it's just like it helps you.

[Michael Bauman]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So it's not an impediment if you.

[Meg Riley]

Are able to conquer that initial obstacle of just most people not being ambidextrous.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So I, I sort of think we're saying the same thing. Ultimately. I'm not, not sure that we're actually.

[Meg Riley]

Disagreeing or that the people who are disagreeing with Philip are actually disagreeing with him. I don't know.

[John Norton]

I think I forgot what the question was by now.

[Michael Bauman]

I think I'm disagreeing with him. I also want to clarify, just to head off potential email. I know that Brent Rooker isn't a switch hitter.

[Meg Riley]

Yes.

[Michael Bauman]

In case anyone is confused, he could.

[Meg Riley]

Comment on the perception of switch hitters. Yeah, right.

[Michael Bauman]

I just want him. I would just ask him because one, we talk to him every now and again and two, it's good to have topics to bring to him that aren't, hey, how do you feel about haunted pools? So just everyone I know, right handed hitter, Right handed, very good, very good at that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I'm sure Heater pretty impressed by switch hitting because he doesn't do it it and probably couldn't. So yeah, I think it's both very impressive and also in a sense, not impressive.

[Michael Bauman]

It's just such a bananas thing to say. You feel, I can tell that you feel bonker saying it based on how you're saying.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I just, I know what Philip, I.

[Michael Bauman]

Know what he means, but I, I'm inviting him to, to not split the.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Hair because it's the opposite of like hitting with, with one hand tied behind your back. It's like you get an extra hand. And I know that that's hard for most people, but for switch hitters it.

[Michael Bauman]

Would be like if you, if you viewed it as getting an extra hand and you had grown the hand after not having it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, it's, it's hard to make it.

[Meg Riley]

To the majors as a switch hitter.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right. But then once you have made the majors as a switch hitter, it's an advantage. Like.

[Michael Bauman]

Well, sure, it's an advantage. Oh my God. This is.

[Ben Lindbergh]

What I'm saying. I, I don't know. I don't Know what? If he's arguing it is an advantage, but it's.

[Michael Bauman]

It's still impressive.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Michael Bauman]

Even though it's an advantage, it can be both.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Michael Bauman]

Being a big league caliber player is an advantage in the major leagues, of course.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Michael Bauman]

Extra, extra. But it's still impressive.

[Meg Riley]

Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But it does tilt the playing field in your favor once you're in the majors. Right. Because you, I mean.

[Michael Bauman]

Well, first of all. Okay, how much time. We don't need to spend any more time on this question.

[John Norton]

I guess the question is, does being good at something, is that admirable inherently? I don't know. It's like, yeah, you're good at it. So, I mean, do people have to admire you or not? I don't know.

[Michael Bauman]

Again, I think that the, like, admirable is the one wrong. It's just not the word that I use to describe like a big leaguer. Being a good big leaguer. It's not admirable, it's impressive. Those are different. It's not like a virtue question. Let's move on to a different one.

[Meg Riley]

Yes. Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I think switch hitters deserve special attention. Regardless of where we come down on this question. I think it's fair to focus on them.

[Meg Riley]

Maybe not as much as we have in this episode.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Good. But yeah, they're. They're fairly rare and getting rarer, and.

[Meg Riley]

It'S a, A very difficult thing to do or to get to the big leagues and, and be able to do so. I, I think that they deserve all.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The attention they get and the mystique of the switch hitter.

[Meg Riley]

But I don't know. I guess I'm sort of sympathetic to the idea that like.

[Ben Lindbergh]

All right, we'll move on. Okay, so here's a question from Orion.

[Meg Riley]

Also a Patreon supporter who says I'd.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Be interested in seeing a recalculation of WAR and the various plus index stats without the PED guys.

[Meg Riley]

I don't think it needs to be.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Authoritative, but it would be an interesting tool to evaluate for hall of Fame ballot purposes. So Orion wants to essentially strip out.

[Meg Riley]

All of the PD guys, quote unquote, and recalculate all the stats to essentially have kind of a, a clean players only baseline that we could use to compare other players to.

[John Norton]

Are we assuming we know who the PD guys are?

[Ben Lindbergh]

There's the rub. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess I agree that if we could do this in any sort of rigorous way, it, it would be interesting.

[Meg Riley]

It'd be a useful rubric to have.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I'm.

[Meg Riley]

If anything, I'd be Curious to see whether it, it even changes the stats one way or another, because I'm not.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Convinced that it would. Of course, we know that there are certain players who are tied to pds, who have been great players, and removing.

[Meg Riley]

Them from the sample would make everyone else look better.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But there are also many fringy marginal.

[Meg Riley]

Players who have taken pds. And so I think we'd probably be.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Surprised by how much this would move the numbers or how little, I guess, because yeah, it's like, which PD guys? Is it. Is it only the ones who were good or also the ones who were unspectacular? And then you could never do it.

[Meg Riley]

In practice because what about the. Presumably many players who were never implicated for their PD use? So it's a selective sample. If you're only stripping out the ones we know did something, and then even.

[Ben Lindbergh]

If you're stripping out the ones we know did something, which seasons are you stripping from the sample?

[Meg Riley]

Are you trying to say this is.

[Ben Lindbergh]

When he started juicing and before that he was clean and we can include him and you know, the, the lines.

[Meg Riley]

There are rarely very clear. So I think if you removed only.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Confirmed periods of PD use, it would.

[Meg Riley]

Not make much of a difference to the league wide baselines, really. And I'm unconvinced that the, the juice, so to speak, would be worth the squeeze in terms of how much it would affect other players, statistical cases.

[Michael Bauman]

I agree.

[John Norton]

Yeah, no, I would just say I want to. You don't want to bias the stats by like, only taking out good seasons. Right? Like if you say, yeah, you know, oh, Barry Bonds was obviously juicy when he hit 70 home runs, but, you know, not when he had less, you know, impressive performance, you know, then you're, you know, then you're biased.

[Michael Bauman]

The sample.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, and, and the confirmed PD players.

[Meg Riley]

If you take the, the upper estimates of, of people who have said, you know, 50% of players were, were on something or whatever. Well, we know a very small portion of those. Even if you just took every name in the Mitchell Report or that reportedly failed the tests that were supposed to be anonymous or, or whatever else, it would be such a small number of.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Players that in the grand scheme of.

[Meg Riley]

Things, I don't think it would, it would budge the baselines all that much really.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But, you know, I'm sure it would.

[Meg Riley]

If you could do it somehow, if.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You had perfect, all knowing, like, information.

[Meg Riley]

About who did what and when and you could somehow remove that, I'd be.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Interested, of course, in seeing just like, whether that even makes the, the Quote, unquote clean players.

[Meg Riley]

More impressive, whether the PEDs work as.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well as people generally assume that they.

[Meg Riley]

Did, you might find that the effects.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Were overrated in most cases, if not in individual cases. So yeah, that's just.

[Meg Riley]

That's a whole.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That's a, that's a problem. Like, that's a bigger problem than the.

[Meg Riley]

Holodeck to try to untangle who was clean and who juiced and what sort of effects that it had. So that's a tough one.

[Michael Bauman]

Yeah, agreed.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, since we're talking about Star Trek.

[Meg Riley]

Shall we talk about the goat baseball.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Player in Star Trek lore?

[Meg Riley]

The great Buck Buckye? This is a question from Matt. Buck Buckeye may have been invoked on this podcast previously, I think, but Matt says, my partner and I are rewatching Star Trek Deep Space Nine and last.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Night we watched if Wishes Were Horses, which introduces buck Bakai, star third baseman for the 2042 London Kings and in Captain Cisco's words, the greatest that ever played. But in the episode they also say that he hit 20 home runs from the right side.

[Meg Riley]

His dominant and power side. Oh, this is gonna lead to another switch hitter debate.

[Ben Lindbergh]

In his first three seasons and then only 10 home runs or fewer per season after that. That supposedly because his manager Old Crow moved him to second in the lineup. These stats are fine and all, but nothing special. So my question is this. How good would Buck Bukai have to.

[Meg Riley]

Be at everything but power hitting to actually be the greatest of all time? And Matt lays out the following tidbits that we have about his career.

[Ben Lindbergh]

His Rookie season was 2015 when he.

[Meg Riley]

Was 17 years old.

[Ben Lindbergh]

His final season was 2042 when he was 1444. He claims he had five good years.

[Meg Riley]

Left in him, but the Planetary Baseball League folded after the 42 season.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Maybe all players think they have a little left in the tank, but Captain Sisko seems to believe this is the reason why Bokai was actually the greatest, suggesting that he didn't actually surpass Ruth Bond's Maze and War, but maybe was on pace to.

[Meg Riley]

Of course, Bonds. Speaking of PD players, he may have.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Had had more good years in him too, but he was not extended an invitation to play for additional years. His power was far better from the right side. He hit 20 home runs as a.

[Meg Riley]

Righty his first three seasons.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He hit 10 home runs or fewer.

[Meg Riley]

Total every subsequent season.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He broke Joe DiMaggio's hit streak record in 2026. He was not a two way player. He transitioned from shortstop to third base in 2032 in if Wishes Were Horses. He appears as his 2042 self and.

[Meg Riley]

Has a Babe Ruth build, I guess a older Babe Ruth build. He's kind of tubby. Matt says.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So my question is this. Can we cobble together a player profile in a lab that is all of the things above and has a case for the goat.

[Meg Riley]

He did play 27 seasons, so that's a good start.

[John Norton]

Well, I mean off the top, a player who always got in base would be incredibly valuable. Right?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right, yes. So, so if he broke Daggio's hit.

[Meg Riley]

Streak record, I think probably safe to assume that he was a, a high average hitter or it would be even.

[Ben Lindbergh]

More improbable that he would do that.

[Meg Riley]

So high average hitter, high on base guy, maybe he took tons of walks and if he played shortstop for the majority of his career now, you know, I guess maybe the fact that he transitioned from short to third in 2032 when he would have been, been. Well, let's see. I guess if he was 44 in.

[Ben Lindbergh]

2042, then he would have been 34 when he moved offshore, which you know.

[Meg Riley]

That'S, that's not abnormal at all. But if he were like a generational shortstop, wizards, like the Wizards, Ozzy Smith or something, then you know, or Hannes Wagner or whatever, then maybe he could.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Have just stuck it short into his late 30s or 40s or so maybe.

[Meg Riley]

That tells you something about, about his proficiency at, at short.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But even if he was, you know.

[Meg Riley]

A pretty good shortstop and he was an extremely high average high on base hitter and you know, maybe he was a good base runner, base dealer, etc.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I think yeah, he could be the goat, right? You, you could. I mean it's tough, right? Because you know, it's tough to accrue.

[Meg Riley]

The, the WAR totals that Maze or Bonds or, or Ruth or Aaron or these guys did. If you don't hit for power, that's, that's hard.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But most of those guys also weren't defensively elite. At least a lot of those guys weren't or they didn't play premium defensive positions. Maybe Maze is an exception though. You know, the stats kind of differ on his center field play beyond a certain point. So. So yeah, like you could be a.

[Meg Riley]

Shortstop and play for an extremely long time and theoretically rack up the kind of value that you know, a corner outfielder did despite him hitting for far more power than you.

[John Norton]

I'm, I'm actually more intrigued about the planetary baseball league if you think about like different, different forces of gravity, different atmospheric pressure.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, yeah, that was, that was covered I guess in some of our future blasts on past episodes.

[Meg Riley]

But yeah, the Planetary Baseball League has a fairly, fairly concise entry actually on Memory Alpha, the Star Trek wiki. All it says is that the Planetary Baseball League was a baseball league and.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Division of Major League Baseball, which had teams across Earth in the early 21st century. They were officially related to Planetary Baseball League Inc. A notable player was Buck Buckay who stayed with the league for over 20 years. That's about all it says.

[Meg Riley]

And then it just lists some of the teams, including the Gotham City Back Bats, the London Kings, the Crenshaw Monarchs. There was a team in, in Cebu in Japan, as there is now, and a team in tennis. So that's all we know about the Palantir Baseball League, I guess from the Star Trek lore. But feel free to let your imagination run wild.

[Michael Bauman]

I will, yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I mean, you know, we know that, that World War Three arrived and interfered with baseball, I guess so, you know.

[Meg Riley]

That'S certainly an impediment to the sports.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Continuing to survive and thrive.

[Meg Riley]

And of course World War 3, I'm sorry to break it to everyone, but arrived in 2026, I believe, in the, the Star Trek timeline and persisted for decades. So that's something to look forward to, I guess.

[Michael Bauman]

Oh, good.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, not, not entirely unrealistic, I suppose, but neither is Buck Bukai, I think.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah, I'll back up Ben Sisko here. I think that Buck Buckay could have been the goat.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Now it is entirely possible that Ben Cisco was just sort of like, you know, old school fan living in the.

[Meg Riley]

Future and, and valued. I mean, we know he's kind of like an old school thinker. You know, he has a baseball. Just the fact that he still cares about, about baseball and values it and knows is sort of a scholar of the sport, which is kind of common.

[Ben Lindbergh]

To Star Trek captains.

[Meg Riley]

But as has been discussed on this.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Podcast, I think in the past, it sort of makes sense that Star Trek.

[Meg Riley]

Captains would be geeks who are like into the past and stuff.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You know, probably that profession perhaps selects for that sort of knowledge and interest. So it is possible that Ben Cisco.

[Meg Riley]

Does not have a great handle on.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The value of baseball players and that.

[Meg Riley]

You know, maybe centuries on some of the sabermetric lore has been lost, perhaps. But if Buck Buckye was perceived as a great in his day, I guess that's maybe a little unclear.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So it's, it's not totally settled, I.

[Meg Riley]

Suppose, whether this is a contrarian take.

[Ben Lindbergh]

From Ben Sisko or whether this is.

[Meg Riley]

Kind of the consensus. And so it's possible that you know, he just has a personal affection for Buck Bukaya and the type of player he was that isn't really reflective of his actually deserving the title of goat.

[John Norton]

Now I'm thinking of like all of the terabytes of data they would have like, you know, decades from now. There'd be so much information about players.

[Michael Bauman]

But is there fan graphs in Star Trek?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, there's. Yeah.

[Meg Riley]

Know no planetary baseball league, I guess at that stage. But.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But I'm sure that there was a.

[Meg Riley]

Star Trek equivalent of fan graphs prior to the demise of the sports. But yeah, I guess what we're saying is that that player profile does not contradict Benjamin Cisco's interpretation of Buck Bukai's value. You absolutely could come up with a player who, who satisfies all of those criteria and was the greatest of all time. It would be.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Be an unusual player profile, but maybe that would make it all the more interesting and, and impressive and likely to be loved and lauded by Ben Cisco centuries later. Okay, well, there's plenty of baseball content.

[Meg Riley]

In Star Trek, of course, and it's.

[Ben Lindbergh]

A baseball show and a baseball franchise.

[Meg Riley]

And if you want to unite baseball and the holodeck aforementioned on this episode.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Then there is of course an episode for you.

[Meg Riley]

Take me out to the holodeck. And in fact, Michael Bauman and I did. Or the holosuite. Sorry, but yeah, that was a Deep Space Nine episode in the seventh season that Michael Bauman and I did an.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Episode of the Ringer MLB show about.

[Meg Riley]

For Space Week at the Ringer, I think. And we had a guest in an.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Interview and we talked about the making of the. That episode. And I assume that's still available somewhere. If I can find it, I will link to it on the show page.

[Meg Riley]

Okay.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, this probably went in a whole lot of directions.

[Meg Riley]

You didn't anticipate, John.

[John Norton]

It was fun.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I'm glad.

[Meg Riley]

And I guess you anticipate the unanticipatable when you appear on this podcast. Probably.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Anything you would care to plug before.

[Meg Riley]

We let you go?

[John Norton]

I was going to plug the scientific method, I think. I think it needs more respect. You know, it's been working well for, for 400 years or so, so. Yeah, I endorse it.

[Meg Riley]

I do too.

[Michael Bauman]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Cosine. Scientific method. Yeah, A lot of. A lot of upsides to the scientific method. We should, we should use that. We should continue to trust that, I think. Good idea.

[Michael Bauman]

That's right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I was interested.

[Meg Riley]

The.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The Patreon people who appear on the podcast. Rarely is the plug or promotion that they do self serving. You know, it's very rarely is it like check out this project of mine, which is fine if, if that's what you.

[Michael Bauman]

Totally fine.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, you're welcome to. But so often it is something selfless.

[Meg Riley]

Or people just promote this podcast or.

[Ben Lindbergh]

An abstract concept like the scientific method. So I appreciate that. Well John, thank you for listening for not quite 15 years, but you know.

[Meg Riley]

13 and counting and hopefully we'll all get to 15 together.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Appreciate your support and your time today.

[John Norton]

Today sounds good.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, one guy who will not be.

[Meg Riley]

Going to the AL East, Kyle Daniel.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Tucker, who after we recorded this episode, signed with, you'll never guess, the Los.

[Meg Riley]

Angeles Dodgers sort of saw that one coming.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Kind of called it last week. It's a four year, $240 million contract. Those are the top line numbers at least with opt outs.

[Meg Riley]

A possibly decisive blow in the free agent contracts over underdraft.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But that's probably not the number one.

[Meg Riley]

Takeaway for most people who are listening to this. We will of course dive deep into all of the implications next time. Happy 29th birthday to you Kyle Tucker. He'll turn 29 on Saturday. A much wealthier man than he was when he turned 28.

[Ben Lindbergh]

All right, an important pedantic correction from Patreon supporter Bohan who says, I have a follow up on the narwhal follow up.

[Meg Riley]

It's a pedantic note, but I figure you'd be happy to be pedantic about animals as well.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Ben mentioned the narwhal's tusk coming from its nose, but it's actually a modified canine tooth tooth and it emerges from male and in rare instances female narwhals upper lip.

[Meg Riley]

So I suppose it is in fact a literal stiff upper lip.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Thank you for that important clarification and thanks for your Patreon support, which any listener is welcome and encouraged to provide by going to patreon.com effectivelywild and signing.

[Meg Riley]

Up to pledge some monthly or yearly.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks, as have the following five listeners, Jonathan Barra, Dan Valenzola, Bradley Ruff Ruffin, Stacy E. And Scott Sorbella.

[Meg Riley]

Thanks to all of you.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Patreon perks include, well, potential podcast appearances, as you just heard, and as you also just heard, shout outs at the end of episodes, as well as monthly bonus episodes, access to the effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only, prioritized email answers, playoff live streams, personalized messages, discounts on merch and ad free fan, crafts, memberships, and so much more.

[Meg Riley]

Check out all the [e-mail] effectivelywatch wild.

[Ben Lindbergh]

If you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcastangraphts.com youm can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Music, and other podcast platforms. You can join our facebook [e-mail] group effectively wild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at R Effectively Wild and you can check the show notes in the podcast posted fangraphs or the Episode Episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We will be back with one more episode before the end of the week, which is fast approaching and therefore we.

[Meg Riley]

Will talk to you soon.