Ben Lindbergh (2:43)

Okay.

Meg Rowley (2:44)

Which is maybe sort of a sad commentary on a state of affairs, but it sounds as if we will not have to pay anymore unless we mess up.

Ben Lindbergh (2:54)

Okay.

Meg Rowley (2:54)

And they are certainly hoping that we will.

Ben Lindbergh (2:56)

Oh, yeah.

Meg Rowley (2:58)

But it will be on us to some degree if we do. So here's how it will work. The price will be the same, so that's a relief. A stay of price Increase, at least for this year. So I'll take it. But you will have to do a little bit of signing up and canceling. So you can't just get MLB TV anymore. One does not simply purchase MLB TV without buying or getting access to ESPN Unlimited. So you have to have ESPN Unlimited to get MLB tv. Okay, the silver lining, the saving grace here is that they give you ESPN Unlimited for free for a month and then you have to remember to cancel it if, if you want to. I mean, there are certainly many uses for ESPN Unlimited and many people subscribe to ESPN Unlimited. But if you don't want to, if you just want your baseball and your MLB TV as you've always had it for the same price, then yes, you have to have a subscription. It's available via ESPN and it includes a one month free trial. So first of all, there's all kinds of confusing terminology because everything is just. Is it espn? ESPN plus and ESPN Unlimited are two different services. Like everything has been rebranded constantly. Streaming services are changing names and sometimes they're just called espn. And then Apple TV refers to now multiple things, which is important to me. The lone Apple TV subscriber out there. Yeah. So ESPN Unlimited required to purchase MLB tv. So that sounds bad, but they do give you ESPN Unlimited so that you can purchase mlptv. You just get a one month free trial of ESPN Unlimited and then after one month ESPN will auto renew that ESPN unlimited subscription at 30 bucks a month. So they are hoping that you will not remember to cancel that and that they will have you on the hook for that too. But there is a way around that at least where you can continue to get MLB TV without paying more than you were before.

Ben Lindbergh (5:04)

What if you have ESPN as part of like a Hulu Disney plus bundle?

Meg Rowley (5:11)

Yeah. Then things get complicated. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, probably there's a way to do it, I guess.

Ben Lindbergh (5:18)

Do I have to sign up for something extra?

Meg Rowley (5:20)

Maybe.

Ben Lindbergh (5:21)

I mean, like, does a theoretical person who maybe doesn't have a team login have to sign up for something extra?

Meg Rowley (5:29)

I guess it depends on whether you have access to ESPN Unlimited already through whatever access to ESPN you have. But after that initial purchase, which is not really a purchase until a month later, then an ESPN subscription is not required to maintain your MLB TV subscription. So it's a little bit of bs. It's a little bit of jumping through hoops and remembering to cancel things. But I guess my expectations were so low because I figured, oh, they'll make us buy something else permanently to get this thing or they'll raise the price for this thing. And to be clear, they still might at some point, but at least it's a one year reprieve. Yeah, year one, you know, and I think there's some history of ESPN doing that. Like they lock you in. It's the whole incidentification kind of concept or whatever. They have you on the hook. But. But at least for now, you can continue to get Mob TV for the same price as long as they don't catch you sleeping and you don't forget to cancel this thing that you may or may not want. So it could be worse is what I'm saying. Could be better. Which is just the way it was before. Before I guess Rob Manfred screwed up with the whole opt out arrangement for ESPN and then had to claw back that cash somehow and then I guess just gave MLB TV to ESPN to make up that lost revenue and maybe some more. But it means that it's a little more complicated and there is some potential for some consumers to be confused and to end up with something that they don't want and to be paying for something. But if you're vigilant and you're on top of things, you can come out of this not subscribing to or spending more than you would have. So we'll take it, I guess. I mean, we'll have to take it because we don't really have a choice.

Ben Lindbergh (7:16)

I think that something that should be required in these processes is that like the people who make the decisions should have to be the people who our parents call when they're confused about those choices. Right. They're at a remove. This is a much smaller scale version of like the billionaire problem where it's like, of course these guys have become disconnected weirdos. They never have to interact with a human person. They're not paying. And so they have no, they have none of the normal social incentives to make like pro social choices. And I think this is a smaller version of that where it's like the person who is sitting at ESPN and is like, this is what the workflow is going to be. They just will give their parents their login. The rest of us have to field phone calls, you know, and that's not, that's not right. And, and maybe less specifically me because my dad works in tech and so is actually more tech savvy than I am despite being older. But the, the hypothetical person who's going, the hypothetical millennial whose parents just want to watch the Kansas City Royals out of Market because they retired to Florida. I don't know. I'm constructing. It's like I sound like Chuck Schumer talking about the Baileys or something. But, like, they should have to field that person's phone call. You know what I mean? They should have to be the one who's like, no, no, you sign in here and set the reminder on your calendar to cancel. You know, they're not going to have to. I'm just saying they're not going to have to field the phone call. That should be part. Just like I. As I'm here offering feedback to ESPN that I'm sure they really. If you are gonna have a song in your college basketball promo, you should have to license good stuff. You should need to license real music, not whatever I love basketball song you've got going. I see that God dang promo so much and I. I need a pickaxe to remove that song from my brain. And it's not a real song. I mean, it's a real song. And then I don't think, like, it's an AI song. So I guess that's, you know, a small but meaningful distinction in our current environment. But you should have to pay for good stuff. You know, I'm not even talking.

Annie Rogers (9:49)

You.

Ben Lindbergh (9:49)

You can't. You can't be. You need to license the Beatles. You should have to spend that kind of money, you know, or the Eagles, which we have spent the entire. We spent part of our Patreon episode revealing we're not actually the Eagles, they're just Eagles.

Meg Rowley (10:06)

Eagles. Yeah.

Ben Lindbergh (10:07)

What is that? I'm Losing it Friday shows off the.

Meg Rowley (10:10)

Rails, those sports themes, they. They do tend to be earworms in a good way, or at least historically they.

Ben Lindbergh (10:16)

Have you heard that I love basketball songs?

Meg Rowley (10:19)

Yes.

Ben Lindbergh (10:21)

Yeah, but like, that's basically what the lyrics are like. Ah, basketball. I can't even.

Annie Rogers (10:27)

I.

Meg Rowley (10:27)

This won't come up on our Royals preview, but they are one of the teams that will now be broadcast by MLB in 2026.

Ben Lindbergh (10:33)

And so that's great, actually.

Meg Rowley (10:35)

Yeah. And. Well, then you can sign up on Royals TV for that and you can get it on the MLB app and it's also on cable and satellite, so you don't have to. If you're someone who prefers to be on the linear TV and not cut the cords, you can continue to do that. You have options. And maybe if you've already been an MLB TV subscriber, then figuring out this ESPN rigmarole might not be too much extra work. There is, I guess, the consideration that it says that you get this free month if you're a new subscriber. And what if you have previously been a subscriber and you're not now, but you want MLB tv? Then will you be ineligible for the free month because you have subscribed at some point in the past? I don't know. There's still some minutiae that we could work out and find out, but it could be worse is what I'm saying. And in so many areas it sometimes seems as if it couldn't be worse. And so when it seems like it could be worse, I take that as a win. I take that as a slight victory, or at least not a complete loss. Okay, one more thing. Before we get to our previews, I have a pre preview of sorts which I will dispense in the form of a stat blast. This is early to be stat blasting. Usually we ease into the stat blast, but we will ease out of the stat blasts into the previews. And let's ease in with a little stat blast song.

Annie Rogers (12:03)

So OBS plus and then they'll tease out some interesting tidbit, discuss it at length, and analyze it for us in amazing ways. Here's Today Steplast.

Meg Rowley (12:28)

Okay, I wrote about the WBC and we will be actually talking about the WBC as we go through this preview process. We will not be neglecting the wbc. We will do previewing and recapping and discussing of that. But I just did a little statistical breakdown of Team USA in the wake of WBC schedules being finalized and announced this week. As we have noted, this is just a way better team than Team USA has ever been before. Just in terms of the pitching, which was really quite lackluster before and that was just a constant refrain during the 2023 WBC when of course they came within. I don't know. Mike Trout hitting a home run off of Shohei Otani instead of striking out on a sweeper and then scoring some more runs and not losing that game. They came close to winning the whole thing.

Ben Lindbergh (13:21)

When you describe it that way, it doesn't sound as close. Particularly close.

Meg Rowley (13:26)

But Mike Trout not on the team this year, which is sad. But can you fault be in his.

Ben Lindbergh (13:32)

Hyperbaric chambers so he can win MVP like Matthew Stafford?

Meg Rowley (13:36)

Yeah, he's gone from from captain to off the club entirely. I guess he's passing the torch here to Aaron Dredge who can hold it up high. But the offense was never the problem and it still is not the problem. But it was a problem that they were starting Merrill Kelly in that championship game and that their starting rotation consisted of Merrill Kelly and a lot of Merrill Kelly like pitchers and Merrill Kelly's not a bad pitcher.

Ben Lindbergh (14:04)

Say quite rude to Mel Kelly, but go off.

Meg Rowley (14:06)

Yes. But when you have in theory every pitcher who is born in this country are eligible to play for Team USA and you end up with Mel Kelly, something has gone wrong there. I'm. I'm not saying that you don't want Merrill Kelly starting major league games for you. Clearly the Diamondbacks do. But if you're Team usa, if you're essentially working with like a four team fantasy league caliber lineup and just, you know, you're so stacked top to bottom, then probably you, you might not want to make room for Merrill Kelly. And they didn't this year. And it's not because Merrill Kelly is way worse than he was in 2023. I think he's coming off a 3.1 war season instead of a 3.2 war season. So he's more or less the same Merrill Kelly he's ever been. But this is not the same Team USA pitching staff. This staff is stacked. And so I wanted to stat blast this and quantify how stacked it is compared to the previous rotations that Team USA has run out there because it really was, I mean people were writing columns, Ken Rosenthal wrote about it in 2023. There was an LA Times column about it. Everyone was bemoaning, lamenting, questioning why can't Team USA recruit the top pitchers?

Ben Lindbergh (15:24)

Right?

Meg Rowley (15:24)

Because other teams did. Shohei Ohtani was pitching for Samurai Japan and well, Julio Rias was pitching, which at the time I guess was seen as a good thing. And also you Darvish and Sandy Alcantara and Christian Javier and Pablo Lopez and Jose Brios, like there were, you know, not all of the great pitchers who were eligible to pitch for other teams pitched, but certainly a higher percentage of the top targets did suit up for those teams. And Jorge Castillo for the LA Times a few years ago wrote, attracting the best available starting pitching is an acute obstacle only for Team usa. Take a look around the tournament. The best pitchers from the other contenders are participating and people involved with the program talked about this and Mark derosa said it. He said if this is going to go where it needs to go, then all teams, all countries would want their so called best players. So called. That makes it sound as if they're some sort of frauds and it shouldn't be as difficult as it was to put a roster together. Other he also last year said, you see it from every other country, their best arms show up. For whatever reason, in the United States, our best arms don't show up. And there were times where, because DeRosa had a pretty thin staff as it was, and then also his hands are kind of tied because, you know, teams, the MLB teams impose their own limitations on who can be used and how much and when. And so there were times when he was really scrambling to find anyone who was available to pitch and whom you would want to pitch. So it was not great. John Heyman reported that a former WBC player said that it was the weakest pitching staff ever for Team usa. I'm not sure that's actually true, but that's what people were thinking. And this had kind of been a common theme. And yes, the US won in 2017, but going one for five, when you're Team USA, it's not impressive. Granted, it's a global game and there's a ton of talent on many of the other rosters, but even so, it's, you know, often on your home turf and you do have the large population and you're the birthplace of baseball and all the rest like the. The combined population of, well, the US population is about as large as Japan's, Mexico's, South Korea's, Venezuela's and the Dominican Republics combined. So, you know, even if Team USA wins once, it's like, well, good job. I guess you sort of had a head start from a population and also originating the SP sport perspective. So this time, though, they really seem to have cracked the case. And this is a real humdinger of a starting staff and an entire pitching staff.

Ben Lindbergh (18:08)

A humdinger.

Meg Rowley (18:10)

Yeah. We should use that more often. I know I coined the saying you can never have enough pitching and made it into the maxim it is today. But this might be the rare exception. I think for at most seven games, this might be enough pitching. Famous last words. I made a table and some graphs. Wouldn't be a Ben Lindberg article without some of each of those. So I identified the top four starting pitchers on each WBC Team USA squad. So for each of the six WBCs. And then I looked at. I. I came up with one number which was just the average of their preceding season WAR heading into the tournament and then their projected WAR for that season. And Dan Zyborski helped me out by sending me a giant data dump of old zips projections, which came in handy. Yeah. So the best staff, actually prior to this year was the first one in the inaugural WBC, which is 20 years ago now. Yeah, it doesn't seem like it was that long ago, but then you look and, and so the best starters on that staff by this metric were Dontrell Willis, Roger Clemens. So yeah, it was a while ago. Yeah, Jake, Jake Peavey and Al Lighter. And Al Lighter wasn't really even good at that point. That was as good as it got for, well, the next 20 years. 2009, it was Jake, PV, Roy Oswalt, Ted Lilly, Jeremy Guthrie. 2013, it was Geo Gonzalez, R.A. dickey, Ryan Vogel song and Derek Holland. 2017, when they were triumphant, it was Chris Archer, Danny Duffy, Tanner Roark and Marcus Stroman. Last time around, it was Brady Singer. Brady Singer actually had the best number by this metric, but didn't actually make any starts but Meryl Kelly and then Miles Michaelis and Adam Wainwright and now it's a night and day difference because you have Tarex Goble, Paul Skeens, the reigning Cy Young Award winners, Logan Webb, whom we will talk about shortly, who is fantastic too. Yeah, and Joe Ryan, if Joe Ryan's your fourth starter.

Ben Lindbergh (20:19)

Right.

Meg Rowley (20:19)

Yeah. Yeah, you're, you're doing something pretty well here. And it's not only just the top guys, but the staff runs pretty deep because the, the fifth and sixth best starters by this metric. Well, another guy who might come up later, Michael Waka and Matthew Boyd, who aren't a big step down from Ryan in terms of this number and they, the fifth and sixth string starters on this staff, have better numbers than the fourth best starter on any previous roster or the third best starter on the 2023 team.

Ben Lindbergh (20:52)

Wow.

Meg Rowley (20:52)

And this year's seventh and eighth best starters, who would be Clay Holmes and Clayton Kershaw, are better than the third ranked starter from 2013, who was Ryan Vogelsong, as mentioned. So it's not just that collectively this is the strongest starting rotation, but actually in each starting slot. So if you compare this year's number one to all the previous number ones and this year's number two to all the previous number twos in each slot, this year's guy is the best guy down to Joe Ryan and beyond. So it's just like lapping the previous crops of pitchers that Team USA has assembled. And I went beyond this and I made some graphs of just the total team WAR broken down by pitchers and hitters. And I just made a bar chart and just compared each of the Team USA squads and I just added up all of the WAR in the preceding season for all the pitchers on the roster and also all the WAR for the upcoming season. And again the average of the two, and it just blows everyone away this year. It's like leaps and bounds and heads and shoulders. I guess bars on a bar chart don't have heads and shoulders, but it's a big part of the bar above the other tops of the bars. So it's 45.9 cumulative war produced last season by the guys who were on this roster, the pitchers alone. And the previous high was 37.2, but that was way back in 2006. Since then, the high is 2023 with 26.8. They basically added 20 war. They. It's essentially, it's 71% better the cumulative total in prior year WAR than any post 2006 WBC Team USA staff. It's. It's just so much better. And also the projected WAR total, which is 35.8 for these guys this year in 2023, it was 21.3. This is also the best it's ever been. And, and the blended figure of 40.9 war, the average of those two previous figures is also the best. It's just, it's the best by 70% in the past war and about 50% almost in projected war and more than 60% in the average of the two. It's just, it's not even close. Last time, six of the seven starts went to Kelly and Lance Lynn and Adam Wainwright. And, and don't catch Michael Bauman hearing me say anything negative about Lancelin. I'm not casting aspersions, but it was sort of a superannuated Lancelin in Adam Wainwright too. It wasn't even peak Lynn and Wainwright, that would be a different story. So it's, it's a huge difference. And it's not as if that's come at a cost in terms of the quality of the position players because the position players are as good as or better than any previous collection of position players on a Team USA has been. And in fact, it is a new high score when you look at preceding season war. So the, the hitters on this year's Team usa roster amassed 73.3 war last year. And that's the most that has ever happened with a Team usa. And it's just an embarrassment of riches because really, if you look at the zips, projected best pitchers in baseball this year and best hitters in baseball, Schuylville and Skeens and Webb are, I think, three of the four best projected pitchers in baseball. So it's, it's totally the cream of the crop here. Yeah, the only exception is Garrett Crochet and they almost had Crochet, it seemed like. Cause he did. Yeah, he said last summer that it would be an honor and that he would want to, but ultimately opted not to. Or perhaps was pressured not to. He did pitch a career high number of innings last year, so I get it. But you know, if they had had Garrett Crochet too, then maybe that would have been overpowered. But it's also a few of the best projected batters in baseball because Aaron Judge, Cal Raleigh, Bobby Witt Jr. Who will come up shortly too, and Gunner Henderson. That's three of MLB's four best ZiPS projected batters, four of the top seven. It's so deep that you gotta bump Gunner off of shortstop. You gotta bench. Bryce Tang was like second among all second basemen in WAR last year. He might be benched. Will Smith might be a backup catcher, you know, like Byron Buxton or PCA will have to be a fourth outfielder. And then you've got Bregman and Harper at the corners and Schwaber at dh. It's just ridiculously deep. And so the final graph was when I just combined the pitcher WAR totals and the hitter WAR totals. And unsurprisingly, given everything I've said, this is the best team USA. It's a cumulative total of 119.2 WAR produced last season, 94.2 WAR projected for this season, and 106.7 the average of the two. And just about all of those, in fact, all of those are new records for Team usa. And presumably I didn't run the same numbers for every team in every year. But I think if it's a new high score for Team usa, it is also just a new high score for the wbc. So yeah, it's, it's totally stacked. And what at most they play seven games. So we know how things can go in seven games in the postseason. So nothing is guaranteed. And, and I kind of hope that there are some upsets because I think you could comp this to the Dream Team, the NBA Dream Team, more realistically than you could. Because this is really, it's always been a star studded team, but this is a super team. This is just an all around powerhouse. But I wouldn't want Team USA to dominate the WBC the way that the 92 dream team dominated the Olympics. That would be boring. I think at this stage I'd rather see close games and, and other teams getting to enjoy those games and their victories. And it won't be lopsided like that because you Know, there are a lot of other stack teams, too, right. Japan's really good and the Dominican's really good, and Venezuela, you know, on and on. Sadly, Puerto Rico less good than it could have been because of all the insurance issues, which really stinks. But there's going to be some competition. However, Team USA is, if you look at all the prediction markets or the betting odds or what have you, it's. It's a pretty heavy favorite this year, in contrast to 2023, when the doctor was actually favored by some sources. So it really is kind of a new day. And. And I don't know, I'm not like, celebrating this exactly because, you know, I'm not Mr. Like Jingoism when it comes to international sporting events. You know, I just. I just want to see some good games. I want to see some CL games and some exciting games and everyone getting into the WBC the way that we all did in 2023. But it is really striking how just all of a sudden the pitchers decided, yeah, okay, we do want to do this. Actually, we were holding out for so long, and DeRosa sort of forecasted that this would happen. Last December, they got a boost from Skins committing last May super early.

Ben Lindbergh (28:26)

Yeah, yeah.

Meg Rowley (28:27)

And I think that was probably pretty influential. And then Schubel got on board late in the year. And I don't know that it's that DeRosa did a better job of. Of being a baseball lobbyist or something this year or being a better recruiter. He said himself in December. I think guys who watched in 23 and saw the game against Japan, saw the iconic moment between Trout Notani, saw Trey Turner's grand slam against Venezuela. It's like, man, these are moments in time, and you got a chance to do that. My pitch has been completely different this time. It's like you're going to miss out on three weeks of the greatest time of your life as a ballplayer unless you win a World Series. That's what this is becoming. You see the way Latin America and Japan and everybody is treating the event that way. And I just feel like there's been a groundswell with the United States players that, all right, it's time for us to go. And that has turned out to be the case. So, yeah, I don't know that it's DeRosa changed his pitch or just the WBC itself being the best possible sales thing, just making the most persuasive case, just being at home and feeling the FOMO and watching how joyous and intense it was last time around. Why would you not want to do that if you can? So I'm, I'm sort of not surprised. It's just. It's like all at once. And I guess it just takes some time. And I get it. I get why people were reluctant at first. And they're thinking, why do I need this? And there's no history and is there really going to be any cachet here? What will this mean? Won't it mean more if I have a better regular season and I make more money and I win the World Series? And some players were actually kind of antagonistic. Noah Cindergaard in spring training in 2017. He was asked if he regretted not joining the team. And he said, nope, not one bit. And then they asked him why, and he said, because I'm a Met. Ain't nobody made it to the hall of Fame or the World Series playing in the wbc, which is true. But now the WBC suddenly seems like an end in itself. It is in some respects more of a World Series than the World Series is. And there isn't the same sort of track record. You know, a lot of the international players, they, they play for national teams in other regional tournaments like the Caribbean Series, the Asian Baseball Championship. And those things mean a lot. And, and maybe there's just more incentive to sort of, you know, if you're from another country, you want to make the case for your country as, as the baseball powerhouse, Right? Maybe if you're from the US you might just feel a little less incentive to put that reputation for being the best at baseball on the line. And then there's always the specter of injuries, even though they rear their ugly heads in spring training just as often, it seems to me. But for all those reasons. Took a while for the pitchers to get on board, but belatedly they have in a pretty big way.

Ben Lindbergh (31:09)

Took a while, eh?

Meg Rowley (31:12)

I beat you. I found a little way around it.

Ben Lindbergh (31:14)

You did.

Meg Rowley (31:15)

That was not conscious. That was just a happy accident or an unfortunate accident from your perspective. But I commend you on as always, just being ready to seize on any opportunity, always prepared. Okay, well, I am looking forward to seeing this souped up pitching and this super powered roster ripe for revenge for the finals loss last time. And we've come to this tipping point for participation. I hope we don't have any injuries that let the wind out of those sails. All the American arms, just all arms on deck. They've decided that this time it counts. To invoke an old tagline and to be clear whether they were treating it that way or not, it did count. It was meaningful to many players and people. And I wouldn't go so far as to say, as Ken Rosenthal wrote a few years ago, if the US Cannot give full effort, why bother? For the WBC to truly succeed, a greater US push is required. I don't know if that's true. The WBC was doing just fine in many places, with or without the US Aces record attendance and TV ratings and entertainment value last time. But I am looking forward to seeing this collection of concentrated talent and I do think it lends a little legitimacy to the entire exercise. Not that it was illegitimate before, but in order to get invested in something yourself, you want to feel like the actual participants are invested. And when a lot of the best pitchers were deciding this isn't worth my while, this isn't that important to me. It did detract a bit from the collective investment in the proceedings. It was weird that say, the five most valuable MLB pitchers of the WBC era, Justin Berlander, Clayton Kershaw, Max Serzer, Zach Grinke and Chris Sale, have never thrown a pitch in a World Baseball Classic. Kershaw tried last time and presumably will succeed this time, but I do think if you want a truly world class event, it helps to have more of the great players treated as one. Just excited for the WBC just in general. So we will be talking plenty about it and I will link to that piece if you want to see any of those handy dandy fancy schmancy graphs and tables that I made and look at the numbers because it is quite striking. This is not your I don't know what relatives, team USA WBC team it would be, but the mindset has changed and so have the rosters. All right, let us take a quick break and we will return with Grant Brisby to talk about the Giants, followed by Annie Rogers on the Royals.

Grant Brisby (33:45)

Effectively wild. It's war with a smile. Effectively wild. The good stuff. It's baseball nerd stuff. We hope you'll stick around for a while. Effectively wild. Effectively wild. Effectively wild. Effectively.

Meg Rowley (34:31)

Well, we are joined now by Grant Brisby of the Athletic on a podcast in the year 2026 who said it couldn't be done. Miracles can come true. Hello Grant, how's the old voice doing?

Grant Brisby (34:47)

It's doing fine. Sorry I haven't talked to anyone the in in months.

Meg Rowley (34:51)

Said a word in several weeks at this point.

Grant Brisby (34:53)

Yeah, people don't own my home. Life is like I just kind of sit monastically. So yeah, good to be here well.

Meg Rowley (34:58)

We have so much to say about the San Francisco Giants, but since you have not published an episode of your podcast since December 19, I believe. Are there any takes just saved up from the past six weeks that you just have to get out there in podcast form?

Grant Brisby (35:13)

You should have seen like the. The group. The group chats with Andy, Sam and producer Brian where Andy is like. So if you guys scene Boogie Nights, you're going to love where this is going. All right, so you remember this, the, the scene where like Dirk is like, hey, Jack, ready to go, Ready to shoot? Like that was Andy after Kyle Tucker.

Meg Rowley (35:31)

Just.

Grant Brisby (35:32)

He's just like, man, I got to talk about Kyle Tucker. Please, let's just do an emergency podcast right now. It turns out we were cancelled, but the idea was there and he really wanted to talk. So I will just say Kyle Tucker on the Dodgers. I think it makes him better.

Meg Rowley (35:46)

Huh. Well, maybe we should have Andy on for the Dodgers preview for old time's sake. We used to do that probably, but.

Grant Brisby (35:52)

I heard you banned for playing with poker chips.

Meg Rowley (35:55)

Well, that's true. That was, you know, some people have birds, some people have dogs. Andy has the poker chips.

Grant Brisby (36:01)

Yeah, we have. We got him a collar. So when he did that, it shocked him. So you guys are safe to have him on again.

Meg Rowley (36:07)

Okay. He's well trained now. That's good to know.

Grant Brisby (36:10)

All right.

Meg Rowley (36:11)

I guess we should talk about the Giants at some point. So. So we rarely open one of these preview segments by asking about a manager or talking about a manager. In fact, I'm pretty sure that there have been preview segments in the past where I have entirely forgotten to ask about a new manager or maybe remembered at the last second. Oh yeah, right. Hey, they hired a new manager. Which is maybe a reflection of managers position in the pecking order of the sport these days. But in this case, I think we can make an exception and we can lead with a managerial hire because this was a weird one. This was a fun one. Take us through the Tony Vitello experience so far and what you expected to be and how you think Buster Posey arrived at the decision to hire him.

Grant Brisby (36:55)

What you expect to be. But I don't know. I came from college. It's not even, it's not even the minor leagues. That's a whole different thing. No, I. Look, it's. I go back and forth because I'm like, you know, you just mentioned it. What does the manager actually mean in 2026? Like, what is. Are we over amplifying the importance? Are we. And then sometimes I go the other way and I think, think, no, I'm under. You know, I'm not looking at this enough. I'm thinking. You're thinking, Bob Melvin's got this on lockdown. He's been doing this for so long. Maybe I'm not looking close enough at how he's getting these guys motivated. And then I go back to. But they're millionaires at the top of their profession. They have worked hard to get here. They don't need someone to say, hey, can you do stuff that. That helps the team, helps you make more money? Like, they don't need that. So what does a manager actually need?

Meg Rowley (37:42)

They do.

Grant Brisby (37:43)

I don't know. Is it just a vibes curator? It's. It's not like we've moved on from the, oh, I can't believe he's bunting here. Like, we've totally left that in the dust. And so I think it's just vibes curator. Is that too good?

Meg Rowley (37:55)

If it is, what will Tony's vibes be like?

Grant Brisby (37:58)

Good. I mean, I think that's. I think that's the idea is that you can't find someone to say no. That guy did me dirty. That guy. I didn't know where he was coming from. Just a miscommunication. Boy, we were talking over each other's heads. You never heard. Hear that? It's just this guy. Solid dude, just great guy. Really understands the game, cares about people, all that stuff. So until we get to him coming out the first day and. And calling for a reliever that's not warmed up or something, something brings him to his attention. I think the best manager is a manager who you just don't notice, and maybe that's what the Giants are going for. But again, I. I don't know, man.

Ben Lindbergh (38:35)

The manager might be new, and we might not know what to expect from him, and some of the guys that he'll be managing are new, and we maybe know what to expect from them. The Giants have made some free agent additions this offseason. Let's start, though, with the position player additions, because I think that you could argue one of them makes them obviously better. One of them maybe makes them better than they were relative to last year, actually.

Meg Rowley (39:02)

Good.

Ben Lindbergh (39:03)

Still to be determined, tell us about the decisions to bring Harrison Bader and Luisa Riza into the organization.

Grant Brisby (39:08)

I think this is the first off season, I'll just say, ever, where the Giants didn't feel like they needed to get a star. Obviously, it's not it. I'm trying to think of like when this all started with Giancarlo Stanton and Bryce Harper and Shohei Ohtani and Aaron Judge and all that stuff. It was just this, this real pent up and they kept missing and kept missing. Well now they, they, they got Rafael Devers, right? And he's obviously not Ohtani, he's, he's not going to be the super duper duper star that those guys are. But he's a guy you can build a lineup around. A guy who should be good at for the next couple years, next few years, whatever. So with that out of the way it was kind of a maintenance off season. And that sounds like damning with faint praise but I think it's what they needed. I don't think this was a team that was one framber Valdez away or I'm trying to, you know, one. It probably was one Kyle Tucker away actually now that I mentioned it. But they couldn't do that. They knew, they knew their limitations. So it was just how can we make this, this team better? We can get, we can really improve the off or the defense and center. One fell swoop, boom. The team is n just improved a whole bunch over last year. Luis Ar is at second base. Well, that's funny. But I also think, I also think it's a way to get pressure off of Bryce Eldridge. It's a way to get another left handed bat in the lineup. It's, you've got Casey Schmidt and or Christian Cost behind him who are going to be able to. I don't know how much pinch hitting you're going to do for Lisa Rise but you're going to get them into the games late. So you're going to get that bat with a few innings of Dr. Strange Glove and maybe that'll work. It helps the Giants lengthen the lineup which is something they desperately need. So it was a maintenance off season after off season, off season of big swings and misses.

Meg Rowley (40:48)

Yeah, I guess you want to maintain that 500ish records though. It's very important that you don't stray more than one game above or below. So it's really maintenance is what they've been doing ever since 2021. I guess it's like how much has the grace period after 2021 which was a wild and wonderful season and looks all the more improbable the further in the rearview mirror it gets. I think just because they were like 500ish right before that and then they've been 500ish ever since except for that one weird mountain Peak in the middle of this plateau. It's just like you come across Everest on the Great Plains, something. It's just how did that get there? But I wonder whether the joy of that lingers for the fan base. Like is, are people still sort of warming themselves by the fire of 2021? Which sounds like maybe sort of a weird and sad sort of thing to say because they did after. I'll lose to the Dodgers in the division series. But it was, it was quite a ride to get there. And hey, they had all those World Series in the not too distant past. So you know, how much can you expect? But that is that just fully worn off and everyone is sick of just running it back and being 500 again and is just now resigned to being 500 forever.

Grant Brisby (42:05)

Yeah, it wore off. I'd say like April 13, 2022. Like that. You don't get that kind of carryover effect for it. That was a brilliant season, a great season. One that I'll remember fondly just from how I covered it forever. But yeah, you don't, you don't have a tail with that kind of season. You need to win at least the World Series to get a one year honeymoon. But yeah, that's over. Fans are pretty.

Annie Rogers (42:29)

I'll.

Grant Brisby (42:29)

I'll just say it. They're not, they're not a fan of the perennial 500 team. It is, it's a really, it's. It's different than an objectively bad team because then you know the plan. You know, it's just we have to build from the farm, we have to get lucky, we have to wait, we have to be patient. All that stuff with a 500 team, it always seems like there's, there's one weird trick that you're missing. It always seems like there's just. Or two weird tricks or just a little, just a little bit away. And in 2021 that was. Well, we're going to take a gamble on these hurt pitchers who were effective before, see if they're effective again. And they all were. And that's. You can't do that every year. But that's how that worked. Ever since then it's been, I think you can describe the Giants as a 500 entity year after year because they're not getting, getting any help from the farm as far as position players. They are not, I guess, Elliot Ramos, that's. I, I take that back. Elliot Ramos is a little bit of a help. Patrick Bailey, of course, but you're not getting these guys that are coming up to fill injuries Guys that are coming up and surprising. If you think back to Pablo Sandoval who wasn't even on the Giants top 30 prospect list before he made his major league debut, like they're missing these kind of home runs from their own farm system manager that's creating just this long tail of players who aren't helping them win.

Meg Rowley (43:47)

Well, when the weird trick could be Kyle Tucker, as you said. So when you said that they couldn't do that, were you thinking of that more in terms of they wouldn't do that. They have some sort of self imposed financial constraints. They have actual financial constraints. They just can't woo someone away from the Dodgers. What exactly was contributing to them not being able to do something like that? In theory? Like are they say the type of organization that could conceivably do something like that even though they didn't do that specific thing?

Grant Brisby (44:16)

I think before Devers, they, they would have considered it. But I, Tucker's a real tricky one because I, I do think A the Giants can afford them. B the Giants wouldn't. So that's two very different things. I think of course, you know, they're, they're a very well run team that makes plenty of money. I don't think they would because I think they invested a lot of money and this is just me talking out of school. I don't have any, any sources or anything like that. But they invested pre pandemic a lot of money into commercial real estate and that has not been in San Francisco the best investment. So expectations, I'm sure they're not going to have to move into a smaller home, but expectations have been lowered for what the Giants are going to be as a money making operation. So I don't think. But they can spend on Kyle Tucker. But for me, the reason I didn't beat that drum is just oh this is so nerdy. But his exit velocity in that ballpark, I just see him being 32 years old with a 750 OPS and forever, you know what I mean? And then he's just 36 with a 750 OPS, except he's got 300 at bats now. I, I didn't want the Giants and Tucker to be necessarily linked up for a big long mega deal with the Dodgers game.

Meg Rowley (45:23)

Sure. Yeah. So Giants fans actually get the last laugh. Ha ha. Dodgers. You got stuck with Kyle Tucker. We didn't want him anyway.

Grant Brisby (45:29)

Yeah, no, no, he's, he's very sour. Very sour Kyle Tucker. But you know, if, if the Giants are going to take that big nine Figure swing. I want someone who can. If it's a left handed hitter, I want that left handed hitter to be able to hit the snot out of the ball. That is a, that's a must.

Ben Lindbergh (45:45)

Well, you've, you've brought up Devers a couple of times. So maybe before we, we pivot to thinking about some of the pitching that they're going to have this year, we can, we can take in the Devers of it all. First of all, what position is he gonna play? Is he excited to play that position? But, but sort of more seriously with the drama of everything that unfolded in Boston behind him, with sort of a solid understanding of where he's going to be in the field every day, kind of. What are your expectations of what he'll be able to do next year? Because it didn't go badly from a top line result perspective in his first year in the Bay Area. But I imagine that he and Giants fans are hoping for more than one and a half wins in a 126 WRC plus.

Grant Brisby (46:32)

Do you like, make notes when I make stupid predictions?

Meg Rowley (46:35)

Well, no, we never.

Ben Lindbergh (46:36)

Remember Grant, I don't remember what we talked about on this podcast yesterday.

Grant Brisby (46:41)

Yeah, no, okay, that's fair, that's fair because I, I will say that my expectations for Devers defensively at first base were underneath the floor. And from the very first day he got out there, he surpassed those expectations. And by the end of the season, like, I'm not thinking this guy can stick at first base. I'm thinking maybe in a few years. He got one of those Carlos Santana situations where you look and it's like, wow, he's actually good. You know, it's not just like we put him there, but he's actually good at first base. That's, that's a pretty bold prediction. But I do think he was a lot better than expected last year. And I think it could not just be okay or passable, but I think it could work out in a way that's beneficial for Tim and the Giants.

Meg Rowley (47:23)

I do have to quote you to you because it's not a prediction, but we have to assess at the end of each season whether our preview guests, you know, their goals for what would constitute success for that team in that season, which we will ask you again shortly. But you have a knack for avoiding any specific victory conditions in a way that.

Grant Brisby (47:48)

Would you call me a weasel then?

Meg Rowley (47:50)

I would not put it in those.

Ben Lindbergh (47:52)

Terms, but people who track the predictions might.

Meg Rowley (47:55)

Yeah. So our wiki keeper, Raymond Chen, who has a real High powered corporate job and a real life, and still chooses to devote a lot of it to keeping records for this podcast, for which I am immensely grateful. But he reminded me that I had to check with you because we reviewed all of the preview guest preseason predictions at some point, and then we got to yours, and we were trying to parse it and figure out whether the Giants satisfied that or not, and we couldn't conclusively come up with whether it was a successful season or not. I think we decided probably not, but Raymond reminded me what you said, so I will do a not very dramatic reading.

Grant Brisby (48:33)

Wait, wait. Before you do this. Before you do this, I actually have. I do my own stuff. I record these. These appearances, too.

Meg Rowley (48:40)

Yeah. Just in case we alter.

Grant Brisby (48:41)

So I'm just gonna roll the tape. So you're gonna. You're gonna mince my words? Are you gonna. You're gonna chop them up? I'm just gonna say exactly what I said.

Meg Rowley (48:48)

All right. Yeah. You ready to roll?

Grant Brisby (48:49)

Three, two.

Meg Rowley (48:50)

Yeah, Here we go.

Grant Brisby (48:53)

What are you doing? Let me finish it. It's my bitch. No, go ahead.

Meg Rowley (48:59)

It's very much like when you listen to, you know, some politician in a language you don't understand, and there's like the. The BBC dub on top of it or something, and you don't know whether it's accurate. It could be.

Grant Brisby (49:09)

All right, what did I say?

Meg Rowley (49:10)

I went through a grant impression here, but here's what you said. Evidently, according to Raymond, it's the kind of season where enough happens that you can look toward 20, 26, and they can sign a Willie Adamis type player or acquire someone of his caliber. Not a superstar, but a very good player. And the fans can go, oh, heck, yeah. That is the missing piece. That is one of the couple of missing pieces. He's going to fit well with all these other players that I feel comfortable trusting. Right. It's about finding these players you can trust for 20, 26. It is contending, you know, perhaps for the fifth or sixth wild card or whatever there is now, and figuring out what you have that is there for next year, whether it's Birdsong, whether it's Luciano surprises in the way that Elliot Ramos did last year, whether it's Ramos replicating a lot of what he did last year, whether it's Fitzgerald finding that contact. It occurs to me that I could have actually played the tape instead of just reading, but here we go. You can just. If you get like five, six, seven of these guys where you feel comfortable that they're going to be a Part of the next good Giants team that's going to be a success. We're still going. And that will help fans appreciate the off season moves that maybe aren't Shohei Ohtani, aren't Aaron Judge, aren't Kyle Tucker, perhaps that they can find some sort of value in the guys that are below that tier, which is going to be the tier that the Giants are going to be living with. I would guess I would feel embarrassed.

Grant Brisby (50:29)

But you asked me back. Like you, you actually heard that as a part of your jobs. That word salad. Nonsensical. Halfway through I was gonna make fun of myself and then like the second half I was like just genuinely feeling bad. Like this is nonsense.

Meg Rowley (50:45)

No wonder they took your podcast away now that we read the transcripts.

Grant Brisby (50:51)

Well, I mean that was a little.

Meg Rowley (50:53)

Too cruel, but really you got to wear sometimes.

Grant Brisby (50:56)

That was gibberish.

Meg Rowley (50:57)

You got a little bit of, you know, they're infringe contention. I think that was an element there. And then also that they identify some guys who are good, who you'd feel good about going forward. So. And that they'd maybe be close enough that they could make some moderate moves over the off season and see themselves as contenders. So did they do any of those things?

Grant Brisby (51:20)

Man, I wasn't even drinking back then. All right, let's go through. I listen, I think. Okay, so taking it from the start because I definitely remember all the points crystal clear that I made. They did do that. So they're looking for the Willie Adamus type guy. They got him endeavors. That was a mid season thing. That can feel like an off season thing. They did not get that push forward from last year was weird because yeah, Tyler Fitzgerald and everything you can see on the paper, all the red ink you're saying, yeah, this isn't going to work. Like it's too many strikeouts. The, the velocity is not there. He's not hitting the ball hard enough. It's not going to work. But he's a three win player, one of the fastest players in the game. He's coming off an.831 OPS at 1.35 OPS and it's like, how can you not try him? Right? It's he, he deserved this. And then he gets in and he doesn't keep the job because he's not really a major league starter, at least not yet. So the Giants had a lot of that to where you have. Ramos is coming off of an all star season and he is very mid, you know, especially towards the end. His defense is getting rougher as he's getting deeper into the hole and you're not getting that emergence of a Fitzgerald, of a Ramos. And I could hear myself. I am just going loops again.

Meg Rowley (52:42)

You're doing it again.

Grant Brisby (52:43)

Yeah, I'm doing it again, baby.

Meg Rowley (52:46)

You'll never know Whether the Giants 2025 season was a success. I guess maybe it defies really categorization because they were so stubbornly mid. I mean, if. If that's what Fitzgerald is, then he. He's in the right place. He's come to the right team because they're the most mid team imaginable. Right? So, yeah, it's 81.

Grant Brisby (53:06)

You're. I guess what you're asking me to describe is like, they weren't a winning.

Meg Rowley (53:10)

Team, they weren't a losing team. How can you choose which way? What? I don't know. Was it good? Was it bad? It was right to smack dab in the middle.

Grant Brisby (53:16)

Give me 15 minutes about your thoughts on the color gray. And it's like, I. You know what? Yeah, this is a trick. This is.

Meg Rowley (53:22)

You're.

Grant Brisby (53:22)

You're tricking me. I. Listen, it was. They acquired the big guy in towards the end of the season. They really. You could see that the lineup, what it looked like when it was working. Well, now you've got de settled in. Adamus had a miserable first couple months. Really started to swing the bat well to the point where he's the first 30 home run hitter since Barry Bonds. I mean, I'm not sure exactly when he had like eight home runs, but it was a real August 27th, like, wow, he could hit 30 home runs kind of thing. He came on real late, real fast. So when you're ending the season with that kind of offense from players you've heard of, it's not Tyler Fitzgerald now. Now it's Willie Adam. Now it's these guys and they look like a functioning lineup. It was a better way to end the season, winning and hitting to get to 81 and 81 than it was to do that in the beginning and then lose your way to 81 and 81. It doesn't mean it's fun, but it's still. You can at least look at it as something is going in the right direction offensively.

Meg Rowley (54:21)

Well, Raymond, I tried. You can figure out whether. Whether that. Whether that settles it or not. By the way, Devers doesn't break the buns drought, right, because he hit 20 with the Giants. I know he. He reached 30 with the Giants, but that doesn't count, does it?

Grant Brisby (54:37)

This is Willie Adamus.

Meg Rowley (54:38)

Oh, Adamus Right. Yes. Okay. That counts. He did that all with the Giants.

Grant Brisby (54:43)

He didn't hit his second homer run of the season until the 30th game. Like, he was stuck on two home runs until the beginning of May. Like, it's just, he was not a power guy. And then all of a sudden, he. He finishes with 30 home runs.

Meg Rowley (54:56)

And the other Bonds curse will be broken, too. Right. Because Elliot Ramos might be out there and left on opening day.

Grant Brisby (55:02)

And sweet summer child, they still play baseball in the spring. They run around with their hamstrings and their ankles. Ben, you really screwed up.

Meg Rowley (55:09)

Yeah. Yeah.

Grant Brisby (55:09)

But that. That should also end the other curse of Ben Barry Bonds.

Meg Rowley (55:12)

Fingers crossed.

Ben Lindbergh (55:13)

Sorry. I want to key in on Adamis in, like, a semi serious way. Second, which is clearly the tone of this preview. You know, you're. You're right to say that, like, he started out abysmally slow and then was able to turn it on in a way that I think made everyone kind of exhale. But, like, what. What are your expectations for what he's going to be able to do this year? Because Adamus is one of my favorite players. And also he is prone to these street. These, like, long stretches where is less productive than you would hope he would be. And, you know, he's not in the trop anymore, and his eyes seem like they work. So what do. What do we attribute that first half to? And then what are you hoping for from him in 2026?

Grant Brisby (55:56)

I don't like to just get into a player's brain and say, well, he was just nervous or he was trying to play up to the contract. But it's obvious that that's a possibility. It seems likely. It seems Occam's razor Y. So I'll go with it. What I will say with Adamus is that, that I've obviously seen a lot of hitters go through slumps and be completely lost. But I don't remember a player who had such different seasons defensively without being injured where in the beginning of the season it was legit. Like, I don't know if he's a shortstop next year. Like, I don't know if he's a shortstop in 2027. You're looking at this and the hands aren't sure. The range is fine, whatever, but you're just looking at. And go, I'm not. Not sure that he's cut out for there. And then by the end of the season, he's making daily plays where you're going, there's that guy. Hey, there's the old war accumulator. And I've. I don't remember seeing that with a player. I just, it was so night and day. And maybe that's also because of the contract situation and feeling comfortable. Or maybe he's just a player who's prone to defensive slumps that are longer than you're used to. But by the end of the season, you had a guy with 30 home runs just playing the dickens out of shortstop, and that's a player you want. So it's hard to divorce that. Those first couple months, because they were bad, they were scary. And like now you're thinking, this is the Giants one big free agent shot and they totally whipped it. By the end of the season, you're thinking, he's going to help the Giants get to where they want to go, where the fans want to go. So you don't have to worry about this guy. You don't got to worry about Chapman. The Giants have more, you shouldn't have to worry about this players than they usually do. And I think that's leading to the optimism, if you can call it that.

Meg Rowley (57:40)

Speaking of strong defenders who also started the season slow and also continued it slow part of the time too, I had to rank catchers recently, and so I had to try to figure out where to put Patrick Bailey. And last year I put him very high. But this year I struggled because a 7D WRC plus, that's a different beast than an 81 WRC plus and also a 29 point something percent strikeout rate and just six home runs. I mean, you gotta give me something, Patrick. And then I'm thinking, I don't think the challenge system is gonna kill his value or anything, but even if it just trims the framing value slightly and he doesn't make that up in some other way, then what is he. Exactly. And it's not like you could look at some underlying numbers and say, oh, but he hit the ball so much better than the number suggests. Not so much.

Grant Brisby (58:29)

Right.

Meg Rowley (58:30)

So is there more in there offensively? And if not, is that okay?

Grant Brisby (58:36)

Yeah, it's. I mean, you go month by month. His ops by month was. I'll just do the, the hundreds. It's 400-565-58. And if you're, if you got a 674, you know, especially at Oracle park, that'll play for a guy with that kind of glove. He, he hits, you know, like a 230, 330, 340 kind of slash line. That combined with his defense. Heck yeah. You sign that guy to extension if he hits like he did in September. We're, he's actually got a lot of power. He hit two home runs before September, then four home runs in September. If he gives you anything, yeah, he's like an all star. And all those other months, man, you are, you're. I, I don't want to say it, but you're in Austin Hedges land. You are just, that's, you can't, you can't get by with 500 at bats from that.

Meg Rowley (59:22)

The Guardians love Austin Hedges.

Ben Lindbergh (59:25)

They keep bringing him back.

Grant Brisby (59:27)

I mean. Yeah, and they're, that's why they're hitting their way to the ALCS every year. But I just, it's such a fine line. But I, I do think that if you're going to try something now in the year 2026, when Patrick Bailey is still, you know, 26, 27, prime of his career, it's just given fewer at bats against left handed pitching. There was a time where his minor league platoon splits were hilariously awful. And then I think his rookie, rookie season, they were even. And everyone's like, oh, cool. No, he's really bad against left handed pitching. So the Giants are gonna, you know, they have Jesus Rodriguez. They're hoping that he can become this hybrid sort of, you know, bat at the position. They're, they're hoping for a lot of things, but just not having him in there as left hander, that, that's the bare minimum. Let's just start there.

Ben Lindbergh (60:16)

You know, obviously bringing in Bader rearranges that outfield, allows Jung Huli to go to a corner where he seems much better suited defensively. And I'm curious, sort of what you make of his Giants tenure so far and then what you're, you're hoping to see this year because I think everyone's willing to give him a Mulligan on 2024, given the injury. And it's not like he replicated that exactly last year. You know, he was above an above average hitter, if only barely clearly stretched in center. So what, what do you think they're going to get from him this year when he's able to sort of plant in a corner, not have to protect control center field.

Grant Brisby (60:53)

You would like to think that his move to right field would help take some pressure off him? I would. I don't know how much pressure he was putting on himself in center field. I don't. Because I imagine when you're playing center field, you're not necessarily aware of like what your oaa, how you're doing it like how that play affected your, your Drs or anything. You're just out there trying to make the catches and not so I, I don't know how much he was taking into the dugout, but there's less pressure on him. That's got to be cool, right? And then, as you know, he had his horrible kind of nastiest slump in the States in June and he just looked completely, completely lost. But even when he was doing that, he's striking out less than he's walking. You know, he was, he's just pressing. And then the last three months is kind of what I think you should expect from him, where you have have averages that are going, you know, between acceptable and pretty darn good, with a little bit of power, a little bit of patience. But you're never going to get an MVP, you know, even a 10th place vote. I think that that's kind of where he's at. And I don't think the Giants need much more than, you know, Mike Yastrsky, but newer.

Meg Rowley (62:05)

It has been a running theme of our preview conversations with you for the past few years, but about, well, they just need that core and they never got that core. And this generation of prospects largely failed to launch. And it is really hard to construct a contender when you don't get that. So what's the prospect of them getting that at some point? Is there now another generation of prospects coming along? Are there changes in player development that lead you to believe that maybe there won't be a failure to launch next time?

Grant Brisby (62:34)

The system was built on a lot of lot of international signings that really kind of hit right away in terms of the prospects profile, whether it's Marco Luciano, Alexander Canario, Luis Matos, like that was the core. But as it turns out, and I've been doing some research on this, it turns out that projecting teenagers to be good major leaguers is, is fraught. Would you say that it's fraught?

Meg Rowley (62:57)

Speak for yourself. I mean, yeah, I'd say it's fraught. I'm pretty good at it, I think. But other people struggle sometimes.

Grant Brisby (63:04)

So the good news is that the Giants really do have a farm system that's impressing the pundits and the people who care about this stuff, where they're building a lot of depth in the lower Miners. Problem is, is it's, it's all teenagers again. Even the guy in the Upper Miners is like just turned 21, Bryce Eldridge. So you have what you, what you can see is a core in place you know, they've got three or four top hundred prospects, depending on which list you're looking at. And then you have Baseball America. And a lot of these different places are putting on the just miss list a different giant who just missed their top 100 list. So, you know, it's not barren, but you're still. That's not going to fix them now. It's not going to fix them next year.

Meg Rowley (63:48)

You.

Grant Brisby (63:48)

You're hoping for some impact from Bryce Eldridge, but other than that, you really just gotta hope for the next couple years that surprise Pablo Sandoval happens.

Meg Rowley (64:01)

Because it did.

Grant Brisby (64:02)

It was great.

Ben Lindbergh (64:04)

I'm just imagining Pablo Sandoval, like, jumping out from behind things now like Kool Aid Manning.

Meg Rowley (64:09)

Kool Aid Manning through the wall.

Grant Brisby (64:12)

That's a Kool Aid, man. Referee. I get it.

Ben Lindbergh (64:15)

Right, right. All right, well, let's, let's maybe talk about some pitching, because talk about maintenance signings. I think there were a couple on. On that side of the ball as well, so. And some of, some of these guys have been recently injured. So what did they like in Tyler, Molly and Adrian Hower? And then we can talk about the rest of the rotation.

Grant Brisby (64:38)

I think they liked the price, the lack of commitment. You know what I mean? I. They're looking for. If I had to crawl in their heads, I'll say that they were looking obviously to get starting pitchers, but they knew that if you wanted to improve the whole team, that they weren't necessarily going to be spending on the top, top, top of the market. So they just wanted to fill out, you know, just to kind of fill out the rotation, make sure that when they're relying on someone like Hayden Birdsong that they're not doing it too soon, or they're not calling someone up who really isn't ready, but he just happens to be the next guy up. That's what they're trying to prevent. I do think this is where they. I don't know if they whiffed is the right word. It was an underwhelming reinvention of the rotation. I think there was a lot more potential. I'd like to think that specifically Hauser and Molly are guys that their pitching gurus have looked at and said, heck, yeah, we can work with that. This is clay that we can sculpt. That might be closer to the truth. But in general, if I'm looking at the baseball reference page or whatever, I'm sorry, if I'm looking at the fan graphs page, I am underwhelmed and I. Not thinking that These guys are going to take the Giants to the World Series, but they could take them to the postseason because they're solid enough. And right now the Giants are looking for not Kai Way Tang on the Final day of the season or whatever.

Meg Rowley (66:00)

Yeah, that's the thing. You, you wrote a piece this week with the headline a Deeper look at the Boring Practicality of the San Francisco Giants Off Season. Real clickbait there, Grant.

Grant Brisby (66:09)

Yeah, just light it on fire.

Meg Rowley (66:12)

But that is how I feel felt too, and we talked about that on the podcast. Occasionally there would be a Giants transaction and I'd sort of give it a courtesy mention, but how much is there really to say about signing Adrian Hauser in this day and age? So was there a particular transaction? Because I think if, if you had me sort of strapped to some machine that was monitoring my resting heart rate as I was reading Transaction News, I don't know that there was a Giant transaction that would have raised my heart rate by 1 bpm before maybe the arise signing or I guess Harrison Bader. But. But for most of the off season, you would not have been able to tell if you were just looking at a graph of my pulse the moment when I read that the Giants had done this or that. So what was the move for you? You're a little more invested in the Giants success than perhaps I am. Was there a move that kind of got you going for a minute?

Grant Brisby (67:03)

It's tricky because, I mean, the number one pitcher on the market, Valdez, is a bit of an oddball. You know, it's, you're not necessarily sure what you're going to get with him personality wise. That's not just based on the cross up incident, but just, you know, it's not, it's not one of baseball's little secrets. And so after that, well, is Dylan Cease really the answer? He's good, you know, but I, he wasn't my favorite. I think Ranger Suarez was the guy that I kept coming back to and I'm looking over this list and I'm going, and I'm okay, this. And I kept going back to Suarez and saying this is a guy that you could probably rely on. This is someone who could slot in between Webb and Ray or wherever you want to slot him. It's someone that you can say, yes, he's going to start a game two or game three for us, where you can't say that with Hauser or Molly. But I also think that there's a little bit of idea, both with the rotation and the bullpen that let's ride it. Let's not dig ourselves a hole. See where we're at at the trade deadline, and then we'll know who's healthy, who, who's performing. Hopefully our farm system's in a better shape where it's exciting people. As much as we're excited because the Giants are excited about their farm system a way that other teams aren't. And I guess that's pretty common around, around baseball to have a higher opinion of your own farm system. But in their idea of it, you get to the deadline, all these teenagers are really starting to blow the socks off of evaluators, and you trade for the right guy, then I don't like it. I just think Suarez was probably the guy who fit just perfectly with this rotation.

Ben Lindbergh (68:33)

If there's one guy that they already have on deck, who is going to give them steady production, great production over a lot of innings, it's Logan Webb. I don't know that there's much new to say about Logan Webb at this juncture, but I feel like it would be irresponsible to do a Giants preview without mentioning Logan Webb. So here I am mentioning Logan Webb and I invite you to say other things about him. Now that I've done that, I just.

Grant Brisby (69:00)

Think it's really cool that he exists. And what I mean by that is I like pitchers who go different directions. Up, down, left, right. Like, I just, I love pitchers who can do that with command. I think Webb is really, really good at that and fun to watch. But I also just love the fact that he came out last year and said, I think I could miss more bats with a crappy fastball. And then he did it like he just, he throws like a crappy four seamer up and. And it will get tagged occasionally. He did give up a couple homers to that, but it worked. And he's, he led the league in strikeouts, you know, which is amazing. A lot of that's his innings, but still, he's a, he's a strikeout guy now, in addition to being this, this compass pitcher where he can go all directions, that he's just fun to watch. And I hope he pitches until he's 48.

Meg Rowley (69:46)

You're speaking of pitching until you're 48. He did kind of credit Justin Verlander with that, right? With kind of flipping that switch to, hey, you could maybe miss more bats if you want.

Ben Lindbergh (69:54)

What?

Grant Brisby (69:54)

Yeah, I mean, it, it. Because it's so counterintuitive. He came up throwing, you know, he wasn't a prospect and so he's coming up, he's throwing four seamers with velocity but they're getting tagged and you know, he's not quite sure what to do. Then he figures out the sinker, reinvents his career, becomes what, what he's become. But then to be able to go back and stare at that failure in the face and go, now I could still like pick a piece off and use this. And it was, it was a lot of fun to watch because you could kind of feel those moments where the high fastball was coming and you knew the batters had it in the back of their head. And to see it just, you know, 93 top of the zone, blowing the doors off a guy, just a lot of fun.

Meg Rowley (70:31)

Well, since you've been digging deep into this off season and I mean you're ranking non roster invitees at this point, so tell us, is there anyone that we should have asked about at this point who's been lost in the boring practicality of this off season? And if you want to talk more about a rise or bader, by all means do. Or if you just want to tell us about the Drew Gilbert experience, you could also do do that, I suppose. But what are we sort of sleeping on here? Just because the Giants off season has been sort of soporific, bullpen could be.

Grant Brisby (71:02)

Just a complete tire fire. Bullpen is woo. I'm looking at some of these names and like you're c like first off it's like it's, you do not pass go. If Ryan Walker doesn't re claim what his effectiveness, that's, that's like a load bearing part of this bullpen and he was so good in 20, 20, 24. Well, maybe it'll work. But you just go down the list since Eric Miller's coming off a weird year with low strikeouts and you know, it lost a season to injury. Joel Y Perguero as he's a hard thrower, but he's got one of those 100 mile per hour fastballs that some batters seem to be able to hit. You just go down the list and you're not exactly going, oh yeah, that's where they're going to get their outs in the seventh, eighth to ninth inning. So that could be everything else could go right. We talked about, you know, the lineup finishing last season strong, the rotation being just good enough to help make that work. But they're going to need some guys to come up and whether it's a prospect who takes to a bullpen conversion or a surprise minor league free agent, you know, I really like Sam Henches even if I've never said his name out loud. And I don't know if it's Hennis. Hench. Henches. Right. Anyway, yeah, Henches, but I. The bullpen could be a complete and utter disaster. That neg gates all of what they've been trying to do.

Meg Rowley (72:14)

I was setting you up to say something nice about something, some aspect of this team. I mean you didn't have to. I, I was just like are we sleeping on, on someone who is interesting? And you went with this could be even worse than you possibly imagined. Which that is interesting I guess.

Grant Brisby (72:29)

But Christian Cost is a player. I think he's a good strong major leaguer who could fit on a bench for a lot of teams in baseball. Gerar incarnacion. I love his, his. I love a lot about his game. You could be looking up in August and saying, wow, who, where's that guy? Where did he come from? Other than that the bullpen is just going to ruin everything and we're all going to die alone.

Meg Rowley (72:50)

That sounded a lot like sometimes when you get those really generic comments by a manager or a coach about a player where they'll just go like he's a ball player. You know, he's just.

Grant Brisby (73:01)

I like a lot about our games. Yeah, yeah, Fields, he runs, he's got some bat to ball skills and Cardassian's got powered all fields. Love him. Love these guys. Go Giants. No, I can't say go Giants because I'm a BBWA member.

Meg Rowley (73:15)

Yes. Although you know, we used to do this preview series. We did it in so many different forms. We did it with BP Annual authors, we did it with more bloggery type fanish people and gradually we gravitated more toward people who are kind of in the clubhouse and who are at camp and are reporting and do have sources and stuff. And, and but you, you just got grant fathered in I guess because you know, we just, we will always have you on, on this segment for as long as it exists and as long as you are willing to come back because we enjoy talking to you despite the fact that we have now come to the part where you have to.

Grant Brisby (73:54)

86 and 76. 86 and 76.

Ben Lindbergh (73:58)

Wow.

Grant Brisby (73:59)

86 and 76.

Meg Rowley (74:00)

Okay, well that'll be easy to, to assess I guess relative to last year's.

Grant Brisby (74:05)

I feel like I owe you that one. I owe you that one.

Ben Lindbergh (74:07)

Shocked.

Meg Rowley (74:08)

Yeah. So. So to be successful they have to have a, a clearly winning season. You're saying it has to be like outside of the margin of error of. We can't even tell if that was a winning season or.

Grant Brisby (74:20)

Yeah, 86 and 76 and they got to make the. One of the wild cards the third second. They gotta do it. This is like, listen, they're not getting younger. This is where the money's invested now. That's why I'm a little bit surprised that the lack of urgency from the rotation. But this is it. This is. This is. There's no more building towards next year.

Meg Rowley (74:42)

This is. This is the one. Okay. They better pick a lane is what you're saying. No more of this fence sitting. Either be a winning team or be a losing team already one way or another. Pick some sort of.

Grant Brisby (74:53)

All I care is that you leave me out of it.

Meg Rowley (74:55)

Yeah, I guess. You know, they say that the. Just the random fluctuation of a team, not even due to injuries and stuff, but just due to batted ball luck or whatever the heck. Like, you know, that's several wins of fluctuation. So they could still be a true talent. 81 and 81 win team and still win 86 just flukily. So that's not really out of the realm of possibility, but maybe they could.

Grant Brisby (75:17)

Be a 96 win team and they just get totally hosed by the umpire.

Meg Rowley (75:22)

Right?

Grant Brisby (75:23)

10 times.

Meg Rowley (75:24)

Yeah, that could happen too.

Ben Lindbergh (75:25)

Now they have a. Now they have a challenge system. I mean, I. I will say I think the Giants did service by getting host like that because I think that when. When people are looking back on like the most recent egregious example, we can't have this swing a playoff game. That's what they're thinking about, man. You know, so.

Grant Brisby (75:48)

Yeah, that's the one.

Ben Lindbergh (75:49)

So they did well by getting host because now. Now we get to live in a better future. You know, they. They planted trees not knowing if they'd get to enjoy their shade. But here we are.

Grant Brisby (76:01)

And people, they will ask me, they say, which. Because I. I like to. I don't know if you know this. I like to collect records. And people ask me, say, if your house is on fire, which records do you take? And there's two. There's two.

Meg Rowley (76:12)

And.

Grant Brisby (76:12)

And one of them is. They're pretty. Both the little records. The 45 in 45 records. One of them is the only record put out by Willie McCovey's record label. It was produced. It's an R and B song Produced by Willie McCovey. So that's one. So just aren't that many of them. So I. I want to get that. And then the other one is an autographed 45 from Canadian rapper Buck 65, who sent it to me unprompted just says hey Grant, love your stuff. And then underneath he puts Wilmer didn't go. And so for that on a personalized autograph from a. From. From an artist I really respect. Yeah, it's. It's special to me. So the Giants were a part of the larger conversation.

Meg Rowley (76:51)

Yeah. That's nice. Yeah, that didn't happen all that often I guess last year you can, you can find Grant's alt account just about his record collection at my stupid records Blues guy Social. So that's. That's something. Yeah. I wonder whether you know how it, it drives you batty that people call it the Buster Posey rule and you always correct them and say it's not the Buster Posey rule.

Grant Brisby (77:14)

Alex Avila.

Meg Rowley (77:15)

Yeah, that's just the one you remember. But there were years in between and there were other incidents and stuff. So it, it could be like that too though maybe where they just assumed that the challenge system came from. That maybe. And that was why we got robo umps. And everyone in. In the future just misremembers the history and you have to go around correct affecting people. But maybe you won't this time.

Ben Lindbergh (77:34)

I mean I think I just misremembered the history. Wasn't there also like a bad called ball that was actually a striker? Vice versa. There was the going around thing. But wasn't there also another thing?

Grant Brisby (77:43)

Probably.

Ben Lindbergh (77:44)

Did I just remiss remember it? Did I just miss.

Grant Brisby (77:48)

2021 is so far ago.

Meg Rowley (77:52)

Yeah, well, I, I mean I. I think people will probably remember I guess if they have to think of just like immediately before the challenge system when there was no recourse and how did people live like that? And it seems uncivilized to people in the future it'll be maybe Xander Bogarts and the call on him. Yeah, yeah. But the Giants would have had to make the playoffs to really have a memorably bad call go against them, which hasn't happened lately.

Ben Lindbergh (78:19)

So I'm trying to decide how I would describe the vibes of this. Of this preview.

Meg Rowley (78:23)

Definitely not. Not boring. Practicality.

Ben Lindbergh (78:26)

How would Tony describe them? As the Vibes curator. I'm going to use that. I think that's a great way to describe a manager. A Vibes curator. That's amazing. It's like you're a professional writer or something.

Grant Brisby (78:38)

I like how you. You're bringing up like a playoff game that I was at watching with my whole heart and brain. And I can't answer that question, but now I'm thinking like, well, there was that call to end the season in 2020 when the Giants. Giants could have made the final playoff spot against the Brewers. But Mike Yusremski, like, why is that in my brain? But I, I don't know what happened in 2021. Did they win?

Meg Rowley (79:01)

They won a lot of the time, but yeah, not the last time that they played. Yeah. Okay. Well, we love you, Grant, and we hope to hear you on many more podcasts, preferably your own in some form. But we will settle for other people's podcasts as well. And we're always happy to, to have you on ours. So thanks for, thanks for coming. You're. You're welcome.

Grant Brisby (79:22)

Have you guys ever heard of the omnibus podcast?

Meg Rowley (79:24)

No, I don't think so.

Grant Brisby (79:25)

Okay. It's a podcast.

Meg Rowley (79:26)

It's.

Grant Brisby (79:27)

It's done by the lead singer, the Long Winters, and it was done by the host of Jeopardy. Ken Jennings, but he got too busy. So I'm going to be doing a guest episode on there about Candlestick Park. So watch, watch your feed for my myself talking about Candlestick park left.

Meg Rowley (79:44)

And now from an 81 win team, we move to an 82 win team. Annie Rodgers on the Royals coming up. How do you calculate horn?

Grant Brisby (79:56)

Does it come from the heart?

Meg Rowley (80:01)

Should we use defensive runs safe or follow the OAA way?

Grant Brisby (80:10)

Who's gone away.

Meg Rowley (80:14)

With their quips and opinions?

Grant Brisby (80:17)

It's effectively wild.

Meg Rowley (80:20)

All right, we are back and Annie Rogers is back. She covers the Kansas City Royals for MLB.com and for the next half hour or so for effectively wild. Hello, Annie.

Annie Rogers (80:31)

Hey, how's it going?

Meg Rowley (80:32)

It's going okay. So we actually already added asked Vinnie Pasquintino what he thought about the Royals moving the dimensions at Kaufman. But maybe we can get the thoughts of someone who will not be directly affected in the way that Vinnie will do. So what have you gleaned from why they made this move and what they think the effects will be?

Annie Rogers (80:56)

Yeah, you know, I'm sure Vinnie had tons of thoughts. I talked to him about it as well. And we'll for sure be getting his stuff thoughts throughout the year on it. You know, it's, it's funny, I always tell people like you can, you can feel when a hitter hits the ball as well as. As some do and you think that's gone for sure and it. And it falls into the glove of an outfielder or even off the wall. Like it's just like this visceral reaction and then you hear about it, of course, post game and in the clubhouse. So I would imagine those might be eliminated with this move. Really what the Royals wanted to do was make it a more neutral ballpark. You know, there's so much data out there about how Kaufman Stadium is actually slightly more of a hitters park because of all the doubles and triples that happen. But it's really, really hard to just get it out of the ballpark. So they wanted to make it a way to where if you hit the ball well and you've. You've got the right launch angle, you've got the right exit V, you should be rewarded for it going out. And we'll see if that actually happens. You know, there's so much data analysis this out there right now. I know fangraphs had articles about it. Statcast recently was able. We were able to get some data from them about it and the effect is more home runs. We'll see how that plays out. I'm really interested to see how it affects the pitching staff. I don't think it will as much as people might think, but yeah, it's going to be really interesting. I'm very interested to see how it's received throughout the whole season.

Meg Rowley (82:26)

Yeah, you'd think there'd be an equal and opposite reaction there where if there's the hitter hanging his head after he, he thought he got enough of one and didn't, then there's the pitcher who gets bailed out after he thought he got tagged, but suddenly it, it does not go out. So you'll be losing a little bit of that too, I guess. But it, it sounds like. Do you get the sense that this was more done from the perspective of wanting to be able to recruit or retain hitters and not have them be worried about the dimensions or was it more about just the short term? Because I know that the Royals calculated that they think this might help them to the tune of a win and a something at home. So is it just about that or is it more of a long term? I guess it can only be so long term because they might not be at Kaufman that long term. But for now at least, do you see this as being more about sort of attracting and retaining talent or just the actual. Well, we think that this will work out for us in terms of which balls go over the fence and which don't?

Annie Rogers (83:24)

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think there's a little bit of, you know, recruiting guys, I think. Like, I don't know, I was talking to someone about it right after and like you look at the guys who sign one year deals who are trying to, you know, almost like a prove it contract and where they, where they go. And maybe this allows the Royals to get a hitter who is able to do, you know, go one or two year deal and they're able to not be hurt by the ballpark. I don't think that was like a huge factor in this. I think what really drove the Royals to doing this was that their roster is. They know what their roster is going to look like for the next few years, especially as they continue to, you know, extend these young players that they've got and see these guys come up and you know, like you mentioned the. They're going to only be here for the next five years in terms of Kaufman Stadium. Like who knows what the next ballpark will look like, wherever that might be downtown or north county or wherever. But, but I think they thought, they thought it was a nice opportunity. Like they know somewhat what their roster is going to look like. They've got Bobby Wood Jr. Long term, why not make it a little bit more homer friendly or at least like I said, be rewarded for when you hit balls really, really hard and they go out and then maybe you reap the benefit too when you're recruiting players as well.

Ben Lindbergh (84:43)

And some of their offseason activity was about making sure that there were other guys besides Whit who were around long term. So talk to us about what, what went into the Michael Garcia extension and how they explain his breakout last season because he was always such a stout defender but really blossomed at the plate. And now that side of their infield is one of the best in baseball. So talk to us about the extension.

Annie Rogers (85:08)

Yeah, I think it was something where there was interest on both sides, obviously, but they were able to buy out all four of Mikel Garcia's Arb years and then also tack on another, either one or two, depending on the option that's at the end there of his free agent years. I think it makes a lot of sense both in terms of the financial stability, both for him and the club and you know, just being able to keep a guy that they have, they've seen grown up in their system, you know, anchor down the left side of the infield with Bobby, like you talked about, it's a really, really good left side of infield to really good infield in general. The Royals that the Royals have. So, you know, I think Mikel just kind of got back to who he was as a, as a minor league player, you know, he was always a contact oriented guy. He, you know, put the ball in play a lot when he was in the minor leagues and I think he's just grown stronger over the last couple of years. He's been able to kind of get back to that version of the hitter that he is. Sorry guys, my dog's barking.

Meg Rowley (86:10)

You're not the first and won't be the last preview guest who's dogs interject during the segment. So that's okay.

Annie Rogers (86:17)

It really is. Like every single time I do one.

Meg Rowley (86:19)

Of these things, they know somehow they know I have one too.

Annie Rogers (86:24)

But. But no, I think Mikel just was able to get back to the kind of guy that he was throughout the minor league system and that made him into a prospect. He did really well this year. Now it's just about building on it and making sure that wasn't just a one off year.

Meg Rowley (86:36)

Well, if the infield was mostly good news, the outfield was another story. It was the worst outfield in baseball by fan graphs. War. So give us the outlook for it maybe not being bad again. Of course they acquired Isaac Collins so you can let us know what they liked about him. And obviously they are hoping to get much more out of Jack Caglion.

Annie Rogers (86:58)

Yeah, that's a really big part of 2026 is what can they get out of Jack Caglion and what can they get out of Carter Jensen too? I know he's not an outfielder, he's a catcher, dh. But you know those two young guys. When you talk about finding impact in the Royals lineup, like if they put it together, that's your impact. So. And with CAGs, especially given how the first part of his career and last year was, was pretty tough for him. So how can he adjust and get to be the power hitting guy that, that the Royals drafted? You know, starting out this season, he'll. He'll be that right fielder. He has to perform obviously. And then they've got Kyle Isbell in center, really good defensively, kind of that number nine hitter, hitter esque. He's not going to do a ton with the bat, but he's progressed throughout his, his major league career. And then left field is Isaac Collins. As you mentioned, they got him in a trade with the brewers. And I think what the Royals tried to do this offseason was kind of raise the floor of the bottom of their lineup. They feel like they have a really good core of the lineup with Bobby and Mikel and Salvador Perez and Vinny Pascantino and they just tried to, they wanted a better Supporting cast. They did want an impact back. They haven't found it yet externally. So, you know, I think they wanted just a better supporting cast around that core. And what Isaac Collins can do is really impressive. What he did with the brewers that they're hoping that that continues over in Kansas City. You know, get on base, he's a little bit of a runner. He's able to, you know, get on base ahead of those guys and score some runs. Runs for him. And same goes for Lane Thomas, who they signed to a one year contract, kind of a bounce back candidate type deal. He's, he was hurt with the guardian last year, but they see him as being really important to this club as long as he's healthy, mashes lefties and is able to get on base. So I would imagine you'd see him go to all three spots in the outfield, depending on the day and the matchups there. That's kind of what they're going to go into the season with. There's a lot of hope built around Jack Kecleone being the kind of hitter that they think they, they have in him. So that's probably a little bit more risk than I would want. But also if that, if that plays out, like he could be a really, really good player for him this year.

Ben Lindbergh (89:08)

You know, we talked about some of the young guys who might take a step forward. I want to talk about sort of one of the, one of the stalwarts of this, of this lineup, which is Salvador Perez. They extended him again. Carter Jensen seems like he's sort of in the mix, but has been slow to progress from a defensive perspective behind the plate. So I'm curious about the, the current state of the catching position and then what you view the future of that position to be.

Annie Rogers (89:31)

Current state is definitely salvi behind the plate. I would imagine him slotting in there a lot to start the season and then as you start to see the season wear on him a little bit, as it always does with any player, maybe get him a little bit more time at first base when Vinnie's sitting or at dh obviously is a big factor there. So Carter Jensen is, I think the Royals view him as the future of that position. He's got to one, earn a spot this spring and continue to earn it throughout the season. But if he's hitting the way that he did in September, like they're going to find a spot for him in the lineup, whether that's at DH or behind the plate. And they were, they were pretty impressed with him once he got Some more time behind the plate in September. I think just the way that he was receiving and you know, working with those pitchers. So I'd imagine that a good spring with lots of time with those guys would only help him and, and allow the Royals to feel comfortable with him behind the plate. But he's got a lot of promise. He's got of a lot, lot of potential. It's just about seeing that play out. I think Salvi has been really impressed with him too, which always helps. So I, I, I would think that, that those two would kind of take on that position. I don't know if it's going to be 50, 50, 60, 40 by the end of the year, but you're going to see both of them, both of them play. You're definitely going to see Jensen behind the plate throughout the year and, and it's just a matter of, you know, making sure his bat continues to be productive in the lineup.

Grant Brisby (90:55)

Up.

Meg Rowley (90:56)

I don't know what to ask about Bobby Wood Jr. Because he's just pretty much a perfect player, but it feels like that should be acknowledged here. I guess if he was perfection itself in 2024, then I guess he was slightly imperfect in 2025, but barely. He just cratered all the way down to an eight win player instead of a ten and a half win player or something. So I don't know, is there anything that he's still working on? Is there any way in which he hopes or expects to evolve? Does he see himself as more of the 30 plus home run hitter that he was the previous couple years than the 20 something? I guess the, the walls being moved in might help him there, but yeah, what will he look like? Or can we just count on him sort of metronomically being one of the best players in baseball? And if and when Shohei Ohtani and Aaron Judge relinquish their stranglehold on the hardware every year, then maybe he could win some.

Annie Rogers (91:52)

No, it's, it's funny you say that about his season. Like I remember thinking throughout the year and especially when the Royals were really fighting to stay in it, like in August and early September, Bobby's not obvious. He's not performing the way that he did in 2024. And it almost felt like a little bit of a disappointment. But then you look at it like I would want to write about that. And then you would look at his stats, his fangrass page and you're like, oh, actually he's really not that he hasn't been that bad. You know, it's just like it was a weird thing to try to explain. And you know, I talked to him for a long time at the end of the season, just about his, his year. I think he was, he was unhappy with the strikeouts going up. Obviously that's something that he'll have to work on, you know. But he pointed out he still led the league in hits and doubles and maybe the power output wasn't as much as. As the previous year, but his baserunning got a lot better in 2025. So that'll be something that he'll continue. Continue to work on. So I think it's just about like that incremental progress for him and he's obviously established himself as one of the best players in the league and just being able to stay consistent throughout. I think the thing with Bobby in 2025, like there was and he acknowledged this too, like in 2024, there were, there were stretches of the season where he just carried the team like he was on a crazy hot streak. And it was Bobby's game that he was Bobby's month like, like he kind of carried. Carried the team throughout these stretches. And I don't think he ever got to a point in 2025 where that he really felt like that was happening. So that's always something that we, we look for as we're watching this team is what's Bobby going to do? I think as he grows up, grows older and establishes himself even more like that's something that he embraces as well. The other thing too about about him, the. The Royals mentioned this specifically at their press conference about the. The outfield dimensions coming in is they think it'll help him the most like that he's like that, the number one guy. They think that this will help. So we'll see if that actually plays out the way they think it will. But certainly I don't think he's going to be upset about it if he gets a few more homers along the way. And he's so fast anyway that I don't think his doubles or even maybe triples output will. Will decrease too much.

Ben Lindbergh (94:01)

Last year was a bad year for Royals pitchers as it pertained to their left rotator cuff. Cole Ragens and Chris Boobich were felled by that at various points. I'm curious sort of what the state of those two guys is. Obviously Reagan's came back at the end of the season. I think that Boobage was clear to pitch over the offseason. But where is he in his process and then sort of what are you expecting out of those two guys? Because I think that a theme of these recent previews with the Royals has been us being sort of pleasantly surprised by how strong their pitching has been. And obviously last year had good performances, but ones that were curtailed by by injury. So give us the the latest and greatest on those two guys.

Annie Rogers (94:46)

Both are expected to come into spring healthy. Obviously we'll have to see, you know, how that how their workloads play out throughout spring. I feel a little bit better about Reagan's just because he was able to come back at the end of the year. Like a healthy offseason from the start is much different than one where you're still kind of building up throughout those, those fall and winter months. But everything I've heard is that Boobage is ready to go and is expected to be full go by the start of spring. So we'll see how that all plays out. But I would expect those two to, if they are healthy, continue to lead the rotation. The biggest thing about the 2025 was the the health of the lack of outfield production, but also the health of the rotation. I mean, all five, six of those guys spent time on the injured list at some point in the year and it was, it was in dire. It was dire for a little bit there in the middle of the year. We had no idea who was going to start like the next day for a very long stretch of of June and July.

Meg Rowley (95:45)

And then Rich Hill rode in, the cavalry arrived, our hero summoned in his hour of need.

Annie Rogers (95:51)

Yeah, it was, I mean, all respect to Rich Hill, he did an admirable job and he's obviously a great veteran of this game. But it was kind of shocking when you really thought about it. Like you're bringing up who to pitch, what's happening. But no, I think this team goes as far as one, how far Bobby Witt Jr takes them and two, how far this rotation takes them. So they're hoping for a lot better health. And Ed starts with Reagan's at the top there as their as our frontline starter.

Meg Rowley (96:22)

We did the Giants preview just before this one. I guess it's the Mike Yastrski episode today, but we were talking about the Giants sort of having an off season snooze fest and the Royals kind of gave them a run for their money in that category too. You know, they made some extensions we talked about. They did acquire Matt Strom and Lane Thomas is here. You know, there was not a lot of splashy stuff happening. And to their credit, the Royals have had some aggressive off seasons and seasons in the past few years. We talked about the, the Collins trade and mirrors too. But do you think they ever came closer to some more momentous move that we would have led this preview segment by talking about? Or was there a player who seemed like a perfect fit and fans were fantasy casting him for a particular position and it didn't pan out or were there any sort of. We tried, we made an offer. Instances.

Annie Rogers (97:16)

I think if you ask fans, there's a couple of guys who, who come to mind there that they're just, they were, they really wanted. You know, I think the Royals like they've shown over the last few years as a front office, like they're not afraid to be aggressive but within the boundaries that they set for themselves, they, they clearly have, like I said, limits or I don't know if you want to call them limits or ceiling floor, whatever you want to call it, on what, who they're willing to deal and who they're willing to talk about. And they were looking for an impact bat and obviously the, the opening for an impact bat is, is an outfielder, especially a corner outfielder. And they had lots of conversations with different teams. Like the one that comes up all the time is with the Red Sox for Jaron Duran and it just never panned out. Like the Red Sox kind of held firm in their after for Duran and, and the Royals were not willing to give up Cole Reagan's for him. So there just didn't, it just really didn't pan out. They were in on Brandon Donovan before he was traded to the Mariners in that three way trade that, that obviously didn't pan out either. I think they stuck to their guns. These other teams were sticking to their, their guns and it never matched up. It'll continue to be a storyline and continue to be a search for them throughout the year. Like we'll continue to talk about how they're probably going to need some power in the outfield unless Jack Heglion like goes off and becomes that impact power outfielder. Like this is going to, this is going to follow them into the trade deadline and beyond until they're able to fix that problem. So I know nobody likes to hear like, well they tried because it obviously didn't pan out. And who knows, you know, I think the Royals have been willing to talk about things throughout spring training too. But you know, we'll kind of see how that all plays out. I just, I just think they were really, they were very set in what they wanted to do and who they were willing to part with and it just never matched up.

Meg Rowley (99:07)

Yeah, only Fangraphs writer Davey Andrews likes to hear we tried because then he can add it to his we tried tracker and he can publish posts about it. So good content for him.

Ben Lindbergh (99:16)

Ben mentioned Nick Mears and Strom. I mean we, we can talk about the bullpen because they obviously brought in those guys. They brought in Alex Lang. Trading with Philly has been sort of a fruitful exercise for the Royals as it pertains to their bullpen. But I'm curious how you think that unit is going to shake out behind Carlos Estevez and what your expectations are for that group.

Annie Rogers (99:40)

Yeah, there's going to be some competition in spring. Like the back end is pretty fixed. You've got Estevez, Lucas Ercek, Matt Strom. Those middle innings things are probably going to belong to like John Schreiber and Nick Mears and Lang if he's, if he's healthy and throwing like he did with the Tigers a couple years ago, like the Royals are going to love having him whether it is the sixth, seventh or eighth. You know, they need some more guys who can strike people out. Like that was really missing lacking in their bullpen last year, so that was a focus for them this offseason. But there's going to be, there's going to be some competition for those last couple of spots. I think they need another left hander. So they've got Daniel lynch coming back. He'll be competing for a spot. I want to be surprised to see, see a starter who doesn't make the rotation maybe move to the bullpen, someone like Bailey Falter who's a lefty. I would imagine they would want like Stephen Kolik and Ryan Burgert, who are starters to be in Triple A for that depth if they don't make the rotation. But you never know as the season kind of progresses. But there's, there's going to be some competition. Like I think like I said earlier, there's they, they want some swing and miss in their bullpen. That's why they targeted the guys that, that they do. Strom brings a little bit of that mirrors. Brings that and, and Lang to, if he, if he's able to, to show that he's healthy. So those guys who are able to compete for those last couple of spots, like I think that'll put them, put them ahead. The two guys I'm watching in those competitions, Steven Cruz and Luinder Avila, like they showed really good stuff in a small sample size last year. I think they could turn into some really promising guys in the bullpen for the Royals.

Meg Rowley (101:15)

Sticking with the theme of extensions, the Royals extended Seth Lugo last summer when he was considered a possible trade candidate, and they doubled down instead. And if you look kind of under the hood, I guess there are some worrisome signs. He was certainly extremely homer prone last year. So do they think he can keep up this act and the success that he had in his first season in Kansas City? I guess they do or they wouldn't have wanted sign up for more. But there were some sort of concerning indicators perhaps in the second season.

Annie Rogers (101:47)

I think a lot of that had to do with, with health and not to blame everything on injuries because you're definitely right. There was some underlying stuff that kind of raised some eyebrows. But he, he was not right like in August and September before he landed on the IL that ended his season. But there was something, there was something going on. I don't know if it was his back or something else. I think there was probably more injury concern than they were like publicly saying, than Seth was publicly saying. Health is paramount for him, especially given his career and the age he's at now. I think the Royals are optimistic about the innings that he can put together. You know, kind of going out every fifth day. Being a guy who can, who can really eat innings for them. I think they're, they're really. They like him as that person, him and Michael Walker as those guys in, in the rotation. And then, yeah, just the homers need to, need to come down, which is kind of interesting like with the, with the fences coming in, like how much is that going to affect, you know, affect things for him and for Waka too, I think, but I guess we'll see. Clearly the Royals didn't think it was going to affect them as much as one might think, but we'll see what happens.

Ben Lindbergh (103:02)

Noah Cameron came up and threw, you know, 138 innings and had a pretty good era. His, his fip was, was less sterling, I think in part because he just didn't strike a bunch of people out. Year two. What are you expecting out of Cameron?

Annie Rogers (103:19)

Yeah, I, this is one of the things I'm really interested in for 2026 is how he adjusts, how hitters adjust to him and he adjusts back or if there's going to be regression there for Cameron. I think he, and he would probably admit too, like, he probably got away with, with a lot of things throughout his rookie year and, and he's, he still did really well. I mean, you mentioned the innings and the era like it was, it was a phenomenal year for him. So it wouldn't surprise me if it's a little bit more challenging for him this year, just given what the league will know about him, especially the division. But I also, it also wouldn't surprise me. I mean, he's, he's just like, he's a really smart guy and he's, he's always like gotten things done on the mound throughout his minor league career and then last year. That's kind of, I don't want to say surprised me in a way, but just changed my, changed my view on him, you know. So I wouldn't be surprised too if he's able to sustain the rotation the whole year and continue to make those changes and those adjustments necessary. He got a little tired at the end of the year. His arm needed a break. So it wouldn't be surprising to me to kind of see them tinker with his schedule, his workload a bit. Little, little, little bit, especially given their depth that they have. But yeah, I think he's got a lot to build on from 2025. And you know, he's got, he's got the, the cast around him to learn from, whether it's Reagan's or those veterans like we, we mentioned with Lugo and Waka.

Meg Rowley (104:44)

Matt Quattaro got in on the extension train too. He boarded last month for a three year extension, so seems that they're happy with him too. So how do the players feel about him? What kind of manager do you think he is?

Annie Rogers (104:59)

Yeah, the players, the players really like Q. He's, he's such a low key, like personality. I think it takes a little bit of getting used to both for like media people and then I think players too almost. But the players, like they've, I've received really good, really good feedback on him every time I ask. They like the way he runs the clubhouse, like the way he runs the dugout. You know, I've, I've really enjoyed my interactions with Q. Obviously speaking to him twice a day, sometimes more throughout the season. You get to know each other really well and he's always just like very thoughtful with his, with his answers and with the insight he provides, which I know that doesn't really. Fans don't really care about that.

Meg Rowley (105:39)

Right.

Annie Rogers (105:40)

They just want to know like how he manages the bullpen and things like that. But for, for someone who has to write about the team every day, like, it's very, very appreciative. So, you know, I was, I was happy to see that, that he's sticking around. And you know, as far as his managerial duties, like, I think the Royals are really happy with, with how he does, you know, he came from, he came from Tampa, so he has this, you know, the analytical, analytically driven stereotype that came with him.

Ben Lindbergh (106:04)

Right.

Annie Rogers (106:04)

But I think he blends the two very well between analytics driving things, but also the more traditional side too. And he's very open to change and to criticism as well. He likes, he likes to, he likes to question things. He likes to have those kind of. Kind of conversations, which I think the Royals have really enjoyed. It wasn't surprising to, to me at all to see that just given what I know about the club and I. What I know about his relationship with the front office, everyone is, has been really happy with him and he has a very good track record in Kansas City.

Meg Rowley (106:37)

And if he's open to change, I guess that's good because there was some change on his coaching style, staff and some turnover among the hitting coaches. Every team has three hitting coaches now, so it's just two. Yeah, at least, minimum. Why not? The more the merrier. But a couple assistant hidden coaches out, a couple hitting coaches in. What was driving that change?

Annie Rogers (106:58)

I think the Royals just needed some new voices. I think things got. Got pretty stagnant by, by the end of the year and, and they just wanted to shake things up a little bit on the stack. They hired Conor Dawson from the brewers, young guy, very analytically driven, very in tune with swing mechanics and all that stuff. And then they brought in Marcus Tames, who's a more veteran coach, obviously has the big league experience. So it's pretty clear what they're trying to balance there right between those two. And with Alex Zuma leading the helm on the hitting side, the players love Zumi and especially when you're for best hitter, all go to bat for Zumi throughout the whole season. I think that's when the, when the front office really listens, really listens to that. I think they really believe in the vision that, that Alex and Walt has laid out for, for this hitting staff and for the players. So it's just about having, like we talked about on the lineup, a better supporting cast around him and, and we'll see what those two do to impact it. But I think you can kind of see what they were trying to do with the different, different voices, different. Different strategies and, and ways of thinking bringing those two in.

Meg Rowley (108:04)

We alluded earlier to the lease expiring at the end of the decade and what could happen at that point. And I know that there have been various considerations and where they might move and when they might move and how they might move. And then of course, the Kansas City Chiefs did move and they traded one Kansas City for another. Cross state lines got themselves a sweetheart deal. Perhaps not so sweet for taxpayers, but maybe they won't mind, who knows. So there was some suggestion that maybe the Royals would try to work out something similar and maybe use that as some sort of template to get their own deal done. Where do things stand now with where they hope to move?

Annie Rogers (108:42)

That is a big thing going on. And, and there's very little info. Info available, which is kind of crazy. It's been such a long saga. It's dragging on and on and on. The Royals are still not close to finding a location for their new home. So, and they, and they're kind of running up against the clock right now. You know, if they expect to be out of Coffin stadium for the 2031 season, like construction needs to start happening pretty soon. These, these ballparks take a long time to build and you know, there's all sorts of construction messes that, that come up and you know, publicly they've said they're, they're looking at three different locations. They still have options on the Kansas side. According to owner John Sherman, who we talked to just this past. I guess it was two weekends ago or no, it was last weekend at Roy's rally. Even though there, there was interest in this one, in this one site in Overland park, they've done away with that. They're not, they're not going there. But, but Sherman said there's still options available in Kansas. They're also looking at North County County, Clay county in, in north Kansas City, and then downtown Kansas City in Jackson County. So we'll kind of see how they think about that, what they decide. But certainly the clock's ticking for them to, to decide and, and start. And start building.

Meg Rowley (110:03)

Well, John Fisher were here, he'd say 2029, 2031, you got, you got plenty of time. You'll, you'll figure it out. Yeah, it's an eternity.

Annie Rogers (110:10)

Yeah. No, especially, you know, the Royals are looking for a spot where they can not only build a ballpark, but a ballpark district. So they, they want to model it after the Battery in Atlanta. And, you know, it takes time to build that stuff.

Meg Rowley (110:26)

So we always close by asking what would constitute success for the team in the upcoming season. But I do want to ask just how they assessed their success last season too, because when you go from 56 wins and last place to 86 wins in the playoffs. That's historic, that's improbable. And you look at the history of teams that make that huge a year over year improvement, almost inevitably they go backward. It's regression to the mean. It's the Bill James plexiglass principle, whatever you want to call it. And it happened to them too, but they didn't go far backward, you know. And so it's almost a victory to just gain 30 wins and then only give back four. But I know it probably doesn't feel like that because you go from making the playoffs to missing the playoffs and of course you always want to build on your previous success. So did they sort of see it as. Well it's a consolidation year and at least there's a staple foundation here and we were 500ish and it could have gone backward by more. Or can they not really look at it that way because. Because once you get back to the promised land, you want to stick around.

Annie Rogers (111:34)

Yeah, I think if you, if you ask anybody in the organization, they're going to say that last year was a disappointment because they didn't make the playoffs again, which I understand. And then if you start to prod a little bit more and ask for more context, they'll probably concede that it wasn't a total failure because this is an organization that has historically not won a lot. And so anytime you get, you finish over.500 is going to be something that you, you strive to do and are proud of. The fact that they did finish over.500, given the, like we, we've talked about all this whole time is the lack of outfield production, the injuries that hit not only the rotation but in the, in the bullpen. Like the fact that they finished at 82 wins in 2025 is, is pretty remarkable because I wouldn't have told you that in July or August to be, to be honest. So they stayed in it and I think that's admirable. I do still think like that kind of falls on deaf ears when you, when you made it to the postseason and had all this momentum and, and then didn't follow up on that like you said. So in terms of their evaluation, I think they, they, they obviously think they have a strong foundation and a strong core of their team, both on the hitting side and the pitching side. And now it's just about building around them, making sure those guys are set up for success and making sure that they are. They feel supported with the margins of the roster as well. So I hesitate to say it was a total failure for, for the Royals, given their history as an organization, but I'll tell you that there was a lot of disappointed people at the end of the year within the organization that they were going home.

Meg Rowley (113:09)

Well, as we talked about earlier on the episode, the Giants would take an over 500 seasons, so, you know, could. Could be in their boat. But for this year, though, is the standard for success just being further above.500 than the minimum one can be above it. 82 wins. Is it about making it back to the playoffs? Is it about the core figuring out the outfield, just sorting things out long term? How should they gauge their success in 2026?

Annie Rogers (113:37)

I think it's. It's all about the postseason. It's making it back there. You know, know they've, they've got some competition in the AL Central, but I feel like anybody would tell you that it's pretty wide open, whether it's, you know, Tigers, guardians, Royals, almost anybody can. I know the Tigers obviously have a great pitching staff, so I would probably put them as, as the. My predictor for the AL Central champion. But you also saw what happened last year. So, like, I think anything is possible in this division, and the Royals view that as well, too. So I do think it's. It's make the playoffs first. It's win the division if you can, and then just like on the margins, too. Like, I think they would love to figure out what they have in Jack Caglion and Carter Jensen on, on the hitting side. I think they would. They would love to continue to have that foundation in the rotation. That's the core of this team pretty much. And look at. Start thinking about what that looks like long term. So I think there's. There's definitely things they want to figure out, but, you know, the players, they're. They're all eyeing the. The postseason at this point.

Meg Rowley (114:39)

Well, you can read to find out whether that happens and everything else that happens to the Royals. With the Royals this year@royals.commlb.com where you can find Annie Rogers's coverage. Thank you very much, Andy.

Annie Rogers (114:53)

Yeah, thanks for having me on.

Meg Rowley (114:54)

And thanks to your dog for keeping so quiet for the rest of the interview. That was wonderful.

Annie Rogers (114:59)

I think the mailman just walked by, so, you know.

Meg Rowley (115:01)

Oh, well.

Annie Rogers (115:02)

To make his appearance.

Meg Rowley (115:03)

Yeah. That wasn't unprovoked. I mean, the mailman comes. What do you expect? So that's understandable.

Annie Rogers (115:08)

Yep.

Meg Rowley (115:09)

That'll do it for today. Thanks as always for listening. Twins and Pirates, probably next time. Until then, you can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com effectivelywild and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks as have the following five listeners Jeana Kim, Brian Jerdy, Kirby Davidson, Ryan Kloss and Christine Goo. Thanks to all of you, Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only, monthly bonus episodes, playoff live streams, prioritized email answers, personalized messages, shoutouts at the end of episodes, potential podcast appearances, discounts on merch and ad free Fangrass memberships, and so much more. Check out all the offerings@patreon.com effectivelywild if you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcastfangraphs.com youm can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook group@facebook.com group effectivelywild. You can find the effectively wild subreddit at r effectivelywild and you can check the show notes in the podcast posted fangraphs or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We hope you have a wonderful weekend and we will be back to talk to you next week.

Grant Brisby (116:30)

Where do you go in a world of bad takes for the good takes on baseball and life with a balance of analytics and humor? Philosophical Music. Effectively wild effectively wild effectively wild.