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Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Effectively Wild Episode 2449: Season Preview Series: Mariners and Marlins
02:24:44
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- [00:04]
Ben Lindbergh
How can you not be pedantic? A stat blast will keep you distracted It's a long slog to death but the shore to make you smile
- [00:19]
Ryan Divish
this
- [00:19]
Christina DiNicola
is effectively wild
- [00:23]
Ben Lindbergh
this is effectively wild
- [00:27]
Meg Riley
this is effectively wild.
- [00:30]
Ben Lindbergh
Hello and welcome to episode 2449 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from fan graphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of the Ringer, joined by Meg Riley of fangraphs. Hello, Meg.
- [00:44]
Meg Riley
Hello.
- [00:45]
Ben Lindbergh
I get PR emails. You get PR emails. We all do. Here's one that I got just this week. Here's the subject line. New YouGov data colon. Shohei Ohtani is driving MLB interest in Japan. Really, really revealing, don't you think? Just made me click. You don't say Shohei Ohtani is driving MLB interest in Japan. I never would have known that if you had not surveyed a thousand representative Japanese sports fans. It has a key findings summary here. 79% of Japanese sports fans say Shohei Otani has increased their interest in mlb. Never would have guessed that. That's shocking to me that Japanese fans might be more interested in MLB because of Sh Otani, 78% say Ohtani is one of their favorite MLB players and 87% have a positive impression of him. Who knew? Yeah, who would have guessed that that was true? Yeah, I kid. There's some somewhat interesting data in here. For instance, the fact that NPB is the most popular league in Japan, which is not particularly surprising, but it's kind of close. There are 57% of the respondents were very or somewhat interested in NPB and MLB was at 50% even, which is. It's quite close actually. So yeah, yeah, not a big difference there. And yeah, it talks about the popularity of the Dodgers who obviously employ Shotani and some other prominent Japanese pitchers. So nothing super shocking here. I guess if you did not pay any attention to baseball or sh Otani or Japan, maybe you would be surprised, surprised by some of this. But you know, usually it's like you lead with a hook of some sort, some kind of counterintuitive finding. And just the subject line of Shohei Otani is driving MLB interest in Japan. Wow. I know. Shocking. What made me click. So I guess it did the job. But you put Shohei Ohtani in a subject line. I'm probably going to click regardless. But really the findings here. Yeah, it's just didn't blow me away, I would say. But I will, I will share these findings for anyone else who cares to peruse them.
- [03:01]
Meg Riley
They couldn't do it without you, Ben. You know that's the thing about it. They couldn't do it without you.
- [03:05]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, they did have a ranking of the most popular MLB players among Japanese fans. This is active, I assume, because Ichiro does not appear here, but Shotani number one at 78%. And then Yoshinobu Yamamoto is second at 53%. So a distant second. And then distant third is Udarvish at 30%. And then Roki Sasaki is fourth at 27%. So the Dodgers have collected three of the top four. Turns out Japanese sports fans also interested in the WBC.
- [03:39]
Meg Riley
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [03:41]
Ben Lindbergh
They actually, most of them plan to watch it. Wow. Thank you, Yukov. Look, sometimes there's utility in establishing a baseline, just even if we. We know, just bring some data to the T, just so we know the magnitudes of certain things. You know, sometimes you got to publish the. The null results. There's just nothing there. And sometimes maybe it's good just to have a handle on how people feel about something, even if you have a pretty strong sense that that's how they feel.
- [04:12]
Meg Riley
I mean, it's better than the. The PR email I got earlier today announcing the official soundtrack of the wbc.
- [04:19]
Ben Lindbergh
Oh, yeah, I got that too. Didn't know that the WBC had a soundtrack, but indeed it does.
- [04:23]
Meg Riley
It doesn't need one. I mean, it hates. Anyway.
- [04:27]
Ben Lindbergh
Anyway, Ben, all the soundtrack we need is the crack of the bat and, I don't know, the pop of the glove. That's really all we need for a soundtrack to our baseball. But, yeah, I am envious, though, because, I mean, we knew this, obviously, but it's actually. This is a little lower than I would have thought. Maybe 61% of Japanese sports fans say they are very or somewhat interested in baseball. 89% say they have at least some interest, which. That's really nice. You know, just imagine walking around in an environment where nine out of 10 people have at least some interest in baseball. That would be nice, I think. I wish that we were immersed in that sort of environment in the country where baseball came from.
- [05:11]
Meg Riley
You just have to get to the ballpark more, Ben, because if you go to Goldberg, you're surrounded by people who like baseball. Do you know that?
- [05:17]
Ben Lindbergh
That's true? I guess it is sort of a selective skewed sample, but nonetheless relevant. Okay, we have a Mariners preview for you today with Ryan Divish of the Seattle Times, followed by a Marlins preview with Christina Dinicola of MLB.com I think we have but four more preview pods after this one. We're. We're getting there.
- [05:39]
Meg Riley
We're getting there.
- [05:40]
Ben Lindbergh
We are. Which means that we're. We're getting to the season, too. And the WBC has started.
- [05:46]
Meg Riley
It's begun.
- [05:46]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [05:47]
Meg Riley
Is upon us.
- [05:48]
Ben Lindbergh
Very exciting.
- [05:48]
Meg Riley
Yeah, it is exciting.
- [05:50]
Ben Lindbergh
15 to 1 was the final score in that Team USA versus Giants game. For anyone who is wondering.
- [05:57]
Meg Riley
Yeah, well, and then the Rockies just ran out of pitching the other day.
- [06:00]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Did they have pitching to begin with?
- [06:04]
Meg Riley
I mean, they had less by the end of that game, is the problem.
- [06:06]
Ben Lindbergh
So what was the final score in. In that one, a 14 to 4. Judge did take Kyle Freeland, his former Team USA teammate, deep or no, I guess Judge wasn't on the team last time around, but Freeland was. And now Judge is the captain.
- [06:21]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [06:21]
Ben Lindbergh
And he.
- [06:22]
Meg Riley
He had a big. A big home run. A big old home run.
- [06:26]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. Which is the kind t. Did you
- [06:29]
Meg Riley
watch any of the tune up between the Dominican Republic and the Tigers?
- [06:34]
Ben Lindbergh
I did not. No. I missed that.
- [06:35]
Meg Riley
Ben, What a good time that was. You know, they. They played that game in the doctor and so it was, you know, a predominantly Dominican crowd. I don't know that I had appreciated how high stakes a reliever name Herder is. Yeah, I was. I was made aware of the stakes of the name when he. Well, the doctor put the Herder on him, and it was just like big home run after big home run. And the crowd was having a great time. And the announcers were like, if you've never seen Lido, this is what it's like. And I'm like, on the one hand, you are correct announcer, and forgive me, I'm forgetting who the announcer was. I'm like, this is, you know, talk about being in a country where people are, you know, crazy going out for baseball. Love baseball so much. And the crowds even, you know, during just sort of a regular season leado game can be really rowdy and enthusiastic and it's so much fun. But generally when Lidom is playing, you don't have quite so stacked a lineup as that. And boy, it was. It was a real fun time. Juan Soto homered, and then Manny Machado homered, and then Junior Camino homered. The crowd lost it. Like, this is. Those are. I don't know if they have the pitching, but, boy, that. That lineup. That lineup can bang. It is a fun. That has a fun time. So I'm. I'm excited. Let's go.
- [08:04]
Ben Lindbergh
Me, too. Yeah. All right. Couple quick other items. So. And by the way, we will. We will talk about a prominent pitcher on that WBC squad in our Marlins preview when Sandy Alcantara comes up but little development in the Pirates Andrew McCutcheon standoff which is that Andrew McCutcheon is officially no longer on the Pirates. Yeah, he has signed a minor league deal with the TEC Texas Rangers. Yeah, we've already previewed the Rangers. I suppose there's a path to playing time for him potentially on that squad. With Jack Peterson penciled in as starting DH. McCutcheon out hit him last year, so maybe. But his deal can max out at about two and a half million if he makes the roster and gets to his incentives. But yeah, it's a low dollar deal but obviously the Pirates were ready to move on and McCutcheon was not ready to move on from and it is sort of sad I guess to see him not end his career in Pittsburgh, but not to the same degree because obviously he's not a single team career guy. He had his departure from Pittsburgh and he returned which was nice and it's, it's spoiled slightly by this bit of bad blood here at the end. But maybe they can make up in the long run and he can come back to town for some sort of retirement ceremony which he can time to coincide with the furries convention attention probably. But this is, you know, maybe he's hanging on a little too long. But I never, I never fault anyone for just playing as long as you can and if he, he wants to continue to play and he can find someone to let him, then more power to him and more power would help probably. But yeah, yeah, I hope it, it works out. Everyone loves Kutch. Everyone wants to see Kutch succeed, wherever that happens. So evidently he was quite serious though about not being ready to retire.
- [10:02]
Meg Riley
You gotta have time to kind of get used to the notion, right. I think that for these guys, they've all been playing for so long, it's been so foundational to their sense of self and I wouldn't be surprised if if cuts just thought, yeah, I mean we'll figure out a way to kind of run it back with Pittsburgh. And so, you know, he clearly thinks that he still has something to give and that he can be a productive big leaguer, which is why he expected to get resigned in Pittsburgh in all likelihood. So I kind of, I kind of get it, you know. Yep, yep, I do.
- [10:34]
Ben Lindbergh
We've had some, some height updates now that the Statcast derived or you know, for the purposes of ABS derived measurement system, they've done the new measurements this spring when we were doing the Astros preview and we Were talking about Alex Bregman and his listed height and how tall he actually was. Was it. Maybe it was the Cubs preview. I think it was last we talked about pregnantite in the Astros preview. Maybe.
- [11:03]
Meg Riley
Or I had to bring it up again because I'm a mean person.
- [11:07]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. This time we asked Sahadev about it, and we noted when we were recording that segment, Bregman was listed at 5:11, which was down from 6ft prior to last year, I believe, but we were still somewhat skeptical.
- [11:22]
Christina DiNicola
Uhhuh.
- [11:23]
Ben Lindbergh
He's lost another inch, Mick. He's. He's down to 510 now. It's just still perhaps somewhat dubious. Getting closer.
- [11:33]
Meg Riley
You know what? Here's what I'll say. I'm going to take this win. I know that I don't have anything to do with it, and no one really cares what I think about these things, but I'm willing to be satisfied and to say, just let him. Just let him be listed at 5 10.
- [11:46]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. You will concede, you'll grant him 5 10?
- [11:49]
Meg Riley
I'll grant him 510. I still think he might be 5 9, but. But officially can be none of my business anymore. I just. I. I found it insulting, Ben, that we were being asked to believe that it was only an inch off from his height, because, again, you can't have had this man in such close proximity to Jose. Jose Altuve for so long and expect me to believe it.
- [12:13]
Christina DiNicola
You just.
- [12:14]
Meg Riley
I. We live in an age of unreality. We live in an age of mis and disinformation. We are routinely asked not to believe our eyes. Granted, often in circumstances far more serious than this, but in this circumstance also. And it made me feel insane. It made me feel like my brain had become mush and was seeping out of my ears. And so I needed this.
- [12:43]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [12:44]
Meg Riley
I needed to know the truth of it. And I. I don't know that we got there, but look, it's close enough, okay? It's close enough.
- [12:53]
Christina DiNicola
I'm.
- [12:53]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, that's. That's how the height exaggerators talk themselves into the exaggerations, because they're like, well, 5 9. I mean, you know, that's basically 5 10. It's just an inch away from. And if you're 5 10, well, you know, what's the differ difference, really? If I've 11, I mean, what's an inch between friends? And if I'm five' eleven, well, then I. I could get away with six feet. And then suddenly you've tucked yourself into three extra inches, and that's that's a few inches too far.
- [13:21]
Meg Riley
Inches too far. But I'm willing to grant that first thing in the morning. Fresh out of bed. Yes. Stand up.
- [13:29]
Ben Lindbergh
You go, stretch, stretch. Perfect structure.
- [13:31]
Ryan Divish
Y.
- [13:32]
Meg Riley
And you stand up straight because, hey, it all came together for you in the off season. You've been doing this dance with short term deals and opt out, so to speak. You, you still sometimes feel the shadow of the sign stealing scandal. Sometimes you're at an exhibition game for Team USA and Giants fans are booing you and calling you a cheater. But no, you don't have to listen to that. You got your deal. You're gonna be, you know, an important part of a team with playoff aspirations. You're being looked to as a leader, a mentor, a teacher. You stand up straight and they say, Alex, you're 5 10. And Meg says, good enough.
- [14:14]
Ben Lindbergh
Okay, Somehow, Jose Altuve, still 5 6. His height is not budged at all.
- [14:19]
Meg Riley
Right.
- [14:20]
Ben Lindbergh
I thought there was going to be.
- [14:21]
Christina DiNicola
You thought he was going to.
- [14:22]
Meg Riley
No, he looks five six, he looks 56. I was always confident that Altuve was listed correctly because I'm 55 and, and, and my 55 is I will grant a stand up straight 5 5. If I am slouching even a little bit, I lose at least an inch. And then, you know, we're all getting older. So you're like doing this shrinking dance
- [14:41]
Ben Lindbergh
with yourself, weighed down by the world in our right cares.
- [14:45]
Christina DiNicola
Yeah, yeah.
- [14:46]
Meg Riley
And you know, your, your bones feel heavy. You know, you got heavy bones. But I, I would see Altuve and I would see him at field level and in Spike, he would look like, you know, two, three inches taller than me. And so when I saw him at five, six, I was like, yeah, I bet that's right. But again, because I believed his height, because his height struck me as reasonable, as true to life, I looked at Bregman and I was just like, you're, you're a liar. You know, and again, it's not, it's not unique to him. This is a thing. No, it's not that many men do. And, and, and to be clear, I'm not trying to disrespect our short kings. You know, I understand the societal pressure to lie about your height when you're a man. I get it. You know, it's your fillers. You're great. You're just shadow boxing with expectations. So I get it, I, I get it. But I'm just saying now we can exist in a world that is fact based.
- [15:51]
Ben Lindbergh
And I, at least in this respect,
- [15:53]
Meg Riley
at least in this respect.
- [15:55]
Ben Lindbergh
Speaking of players who are 59 and now are newly confirmed to be. So last year when they first did these measurements, yeah, there were more guys who had significant movement in height. Perhaps not as many as we were expecting, but we talked about some at the time. Gavin Lux was 1. He went from 62 to 511 last year, which is, that's, you know, that's look points for, I guess just going for it because usually if you're 5 11, you might, might try to get away with six feet, but that's so common, that maneuver that it's almost like, look, I'll just say 6:2 and then maybe people will be skeptical about 6:2, but they'll give me 6ft. It's like anchoring or something. It's like, let's name a high number and then maybe I can make a slightly lower and still exaggerated number sound more believable. Anyway, Gavin Lux. Still 511 this year, but we do have another 3 inch height drop. And we're about to talk about Josh Naylor. It's not Josh, it's the other nailer. It's Bo.
- [16:56]
Christina DiNicola
It's Bo.
- [16:57]
Ben Lindbergh
Bo has been downsized from 6ft even to 5 foot 9. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. That's a bold move too. And let's see if he gets away with it. And he did for a while.
- [17:12]
Meg Riley
And you worry about little catchers, you know.
- [17:14]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, true. Right.
- [17:15]
Meg Riley
And so I get why you would
- [17:16]
Christina DiNicola
lie if you're a catcher.
- [17:18]
Meg Riley
You'd be like, no, I'm six foot, don't worry about me. I can stand up up to the riggers.
- [17:22]
Ben Lindbergh
There's more tolerance, I guess for shorter catchers because, you know, catchers are known for, for being a bit squat compared to players at other positions, but not so much like you do want them to be big enough that. And maybe it matters a little less these days because you don't have collisions so often and with there's less strain on the knees and everything too. So maybe being taller is, is easier now because of the one knee down catching style, etc. But, but this has gotten some attention and I saw people wondering how this happened. And I was wondering too, because they did the measurements last year. So what happened last year? Did he somehow escape the 59 last year?
- [18:00]
Meg Riley
Not in camp that day or something?
- [18:01]
Ben Lindbergh
That's. So I asked MLB about this actually, you know, gotta get to the bottom of this question.
- [18:07]
Meg Riley
I love that we are in the middle of like simultaneous spring training and WBC action. Everyone who Works for the league in any kind of front, like forward facing PR capacity is stretched to the absolute limit. They are all exhausted. They hate every single one of us with a fiery passion. And you're like, hey, can you tell me why Bo Nailer got smaller but only now?
- [18:30]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, I did get an answer within an hour, so kudos to.
- [18:34]
Meg Riley
That's impressive.
- [18:35]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, you know, I usually get answers from them quickly. They're not always satisfactory answers, but they, they do answer me usually, so gotta give them that because that's all I want. You know, if you're a media relations person, relate to the media, you know, just. There are certain. I won't name, Won't name names, but
- [18:53]
Meg Riley
you don't want me to name names because I have some names I could name, some I won't, but I could.
- [18:58]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, they, they treat it as sort of adversarial, it seems, or like, like they're protecting their players from, I don't know, media members who have their, I
- [19:07]
Meg Riley
mean, they're kind of being honest about their job, I suppose, but they could, yeah, they could fake it a little bit better and maybe make their lives easier in the long term.
- [19:15]
Ben Lindbergh
Right. So, yeah, they just don't get back to you or. All I ask is just, hey, if I, if I submit an interview request, just relay the request. If the player says no, perfectly fine. But yeah, at least, you know, give me an answer. Isn't that sort of your job? Anyway, so I did get an answer quickly and the answer is because this had like actual implications, because I was thinking, you know, because they've talked up the accuracy of this new system and everything. So if someone could somehow be 3 inches off after having been measured, then that would kind of cast doubts on the process and, and whether we were getting accurate numbers now. And it turns out that there were a few players who were not measured last year just because they were sick the day the, the people came to do the measurements or they signed late or something.
- [20:01]
Christina DiNicola
Right.
- [20:01]
Ben Lindbergh
And because ABS was not in operation during the regular season.
- [20:06]
Christina DiNicola
Right.
- [20:06]
Ben Lindbergh
It was not. Yeah, it was not as high a priority. So they were testing it during spring training, but yeah, it wasn't that big a deal. So in those cases, which include Naylor. So he was, he was not measured last year and, and that's why. But now obviously they.
- [20:22]
Meg Riley
But why wasn't he measured last year? He just wasn't in camp that day
- [20:24]
Ben Lindbergh
or I think, I don't know. This was. Yeah, he may have been just out or sick or whatever, but yeah, he wasn't There. So it wasn't that he somehow beat the system. I mean, I guess in a sense he did, but he, he didn't beat the, the measurements somehow.
- [20:38]
Christina DiNicola
Right, right.
- [20:39]
Ben Lindbergh
He just was not measured in this way. And so they were still using the, the PR or self reported for him and now he can't get away with that anymore. So.
- [20:51]
Meg Riley
Get away with it.
- [20:52]
Ben Lindbergh
Sorry Bo.
- [20:52]
Meg Riley
Get away with it.
- [20:53]
Ben Lindbergh
The days of being listed at 6ft tall are over for you and, and I guess for everyone who is not actually close to being 6ft tall. So there will be some movement, you know, an inch here or there. I mean some guys grow different day, different time, whatever it is, but probably we're not going to be seeing 3 inch differences so much anymore. So that is why this was just a straggler. And perhaps he is the last of his kind to have gotten away with an exaggerated self reported height for this long. But no longer. All right. And we, we actually got an email. I had not noticed this but listener Rob noted that there's some kind of database issue going on at the Athletic. I, I don't know that I knew that the Athletic had player cards, but it does and they have just some.
- [21:43]
Meg Riley
I didn't know either.
- [21:44]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, they have some basic standard stats and biographical details and then just articles that players have been tagged. That's the primary purpose. If you want to just go see all the articles that have mentioned SH. Otani or something, you can do that. But there's some kind of issue going on as we record here on Thursday afternoon where the heights and weights are way off. So Sh. Otani on his athletic player card is listed as 15, 11. 15ft 11 inches. You know he's probably actually 15, 9 or something but he's attacking on a couple inches. 15, 11, 95 pounds which is, I mean that's quite. Yeah.
- [22:25]
Meg Riley
Slender man over here.
- [22:26]
Ben Lindbergh
I know he's, he's like, he's like double when Benyama's height but half as heavy or something. This is, this would not be beneficial I think probably for baseball purposes. I mean that height and weight, you'd, you'd want to see him I think pack some pounds onto that frame if he were actually 1511. And then I mean the implications for strike zone, strike zone size pretty serious at that height. I think. Aaron Judge, I checked he is 16, 9 currently 16ft 9 inches, 128 pounds. So a little bit beefier than Otani cuz I guess you know he, he has that extra 10 inches or so but still quite slim. And Alex Bregman as measured by the athletic, is 15 3. So. And he's. He's 98 pounds. He's a 98 pound weakling, I suppose, but 15, 15, 3.
- [23:22]
Meg Riley
So no, no wonder, no wonder he thought he could get away with it.
- [23:27]
Ben Lindbergh
No wonder he can console himself. If he's upset about the 5:10. He can, at least for now go to his Athletic player page and say, I'm a big boy. I am 15 three. How about that?
- [23:37]
Meg Riley
I'm a big boy.
- [23:38]
Christina DiNicola
Big boy.
- [23:40]
Meg Riley
Let's see, this man has children. He doesn't say, I'm a big boy.
- [23:45]
Ben Lindbergh
Bo nailer, also 15, three, but 90, 93 pounds at the Athletic. So, yeah, I mean, we're gonna get emails or maybe we can just anticipate them. I, we have, I'm pretty sure that we did do an email answer once about a giant hitter or just like a player who's so huge, like a defender who's so huge that he can just kind of step on the base from anywhere in the infield. Like it's automatic force play. Like, we definitely did consider the implications of that at one point, but for a hitter, if you had that height and the weight that would be commensurate with that height and you had the strength, obviously you'd, you'd be able to hit the ball a long way, presumably if you got a hold of one. But talk about a long swing and holes in the swing and a big strike zone. Tough to cover that zone if you're 15, 16ft tall, probably. So I think counterproductive. But these guys aren't even getting that, that benefit there because, you know, they're getting blown over by a stiff wind at that weight and, and with that height, weight profile. So this would really, I think be detrimental in all respects.
- [24:50]
Meg Riley
Yeah, I think that that would make it a little tricky. I think you'd be, you'd be undone 15ft. Imagine, imagine facing a. I mean, it would be so strange, right? Because you're like, wow, 15ft. Imagine what that fastball looks like coming in. He's not pitching in the WBC Ohtani,
- [25:09]
Christina DiNicola
but like, imagine what that looks like.
- [25:10]
Meg Riley
But then you're also so like. Yeah, but how much, how much mustard are you getting on it if you're only 95 pounds?
- [25:15]
Christina DiNicola
You know, probably not counter.
- [25:18]
Meg Riley
Counterproductive.
- [25:19]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. Well, on the subject of fastballs though, this man is not 95 pounds, but Peyton Tolley of the Red Sox. There is a story by quite a,
- [25:29]
Meg Riley
quite a swing there. What are you saying about Peyton, Ben? What, what's your point?
- [25:34]
Ryan Divish
Nothing.
- [25:34]
Ben Lindbergh
Nothing at all. Just, you know, he's, he's tipping the scales at triple digits, I think.
- [25:39]
Meg Riley
You think that he walks around going, I'm a big boy.
- [25:42]
Ben Lindbergh
I don't think that's in any doubt, really. But he. Alex Spear wrote a piece at the Globe about how Peyton Tolley touched 100.4 mph in his spring outing against the Yankees. And this was Evidently, the Red Sox have a thing where they give out T shirts that say fuego to pitchers. That's right. Hit at least 100 in a game. And so Tole sought out Andrew Bailey, pitching coach and pitching strategist Devin Rose, and asked if they're doing the T shirts and if he gets a T shirt, he wants a T shirt. Etc. And, you know, I, I always get scared when, when guys are trying to throw as hard as they possibly can. And I guess he and minor leaguer Juan Valera, he also got a fuego shirt this spring. But it just gives me the heebie jeebies when, when guys. Or when you're rewarding guys explicitly for throwing a certain speed, which we know can be kind of dangerous for pitchers. This doesn't really reassure me. And to be fair, he's a hard thrower. He was a hard thrower before, and he's not sitting at that speed, which is good. I think, like, his average four seamer last year was 96.6, but he did max out at 100.8, so he did that. But I just, I don't love the tradition of awarding something like trying to get guys competitive juices flowing even more than they normally do just for throwing hard as opposed to having some sort of success. It's just purely for just amping up the velo, especially in spring training in early March. Yeah, it's like, you know, typically, historically, we see guys get stronger after the start of the season and the velocity starts to ramp up and obviously it gets warmer and everything, but it takes a little time for pitchers to build up their arms. And because we know that this is such a dangerous, scary time for pitchers and injuries, I just, I would not be encouraging this. And I don't know if it's like, because this was a. I don't know if it was at Fenway south or at Sewage ridden recently, George E.M. stein, Brenner Field. We did get a Red Sox fan who confirmed that at least some Red Sox fans do refer to it as Fenway south and don't muck around, so to speak, with the public's act. Fenway south or whatever it is, but. Yeah, I don't know whether there's extra juice to the Yankees Red Sox rivalry in early March, but.
- [28:15]
Christina DiNicola
Sure.
- [28:16]
Ben Lindbergh
Just saying. I wouldn't be encouraging just setting Velo records and awarding T shirts or anything at this point in the season or really any point.
- [28:25]
Meg Riley
Point in the season, because particularly now,
- [28:28]
Ben Lindbergh
guys already know that. Yeah, of course there's a benefit to throwing hard and they're all trying to do that. But I, Yeah, I just ease off a little. It just, it makes me more worried than it makes me encouraged.
- [28:40]
Meg Riley
Yeah, I agree. You're. Yeah, you just feel, you feel a nerve. You feel a nervousness.
- [28:46]
Ben Lindbergh
Also, when it comes to spring training, read a piece at Andrew Ball's substack, the the former Astros agm. He wrote something about why spring training days start so early. This was, this was interesting. So it's like, why did teams and players have to report at the crack of dawn? Like, why do they have to get there so early to work out or practice or whatever they do? Because evidently everyone complains about this and no one likes it, really. Yeah, but it's just an inertia thing or it's kind of an eyewash thing. And I guess the, the most substantive reason would be that often you have one o' clock games and so, okay, you sort of have to start early. But as he notes, they could just start them later. There's no particular reason why they have to start that early. Not as huge crowds. You know, some of them aren't even broadcast, really. If there's a road game, maybe you can't control it, but that's only like 30% of games like the, the major league road games where you're actually sending your real players. And plus you could coordinate with other teams and you could just have later starts potentially. But yeah, also he said even when there is a later start, they still report super early.
- [29:58]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [29:59]
Ben Lindbergh
And as he noted, like teams, we talked about this on our most recent bonus episode, sleep quality teams obviously place a lot of importance on that. And it's unrealistic ball rights to have to like get seven or eight hours if you're a young guy who's in spring training to expect them to go to bed early enough to be able to get good, sufficient sleep if you have to report that early. So even from a just competitive standpoint. Standpoint, he thinks there would be an advantage to just starting a little later. At sea. You hear the same thing about school, you know, kids getting up super early to go. And, and this was certainly an issue for me when I was a kid as a. Not a morning person and, and a night owl even then, and having to conform to that expectation and kids need more sleep and you know, it can be, can be bad. So when you're hoping your brain is growing and everything and you're being sleep deprived at that point. So he thinks there would be an advantage to starting late. And he thinks that the reason why teams don't, apart from just. It's always been this way, which I guess could apply to a lot of things about spring training, how long it is, et cetera. But he thinks it's because if the team has success, well, you can never trace it back to, well, this is because we had later report times in spring training and everyone was so well rested. So you could never really get a tangible benefit from it or you could never isolate. Yes. This is why. But if you have an unsuccessful season or you have a slow start to the season, then people will probably seize on this and say, oh, they were, they were lax. They thought they could just kind of waltz into the season and sleep late and not be working hard. And so he said probably the media, certain members of the media might seize on this as, oh, they didn't prepare well enough or they were too complacent, or even certain veterans in the clubhouse might say, oh, the, the will wasn't. Or there wasn't enough urgency or something. Because he cites an example of a GM, whom he doesn't specify, musing or asking, like, why. Why did the day start so early?
- [32:09]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [32:09]
Ben Lindbergh
And as Ball noted, like, that's the gm. Like, they could just have the day start later if they wanted to. Like they're the decision maker, but they feel trapped by this. And I guess it's at least partly because of the perception, like the downsides from a PR perspective are probably greater than the upsides, maybe even from a competitive standpoint. So that's why. But this is among the many reasons why I would not be cut out to be a professional athlete.
- [32:35]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [32:36]
Christina DiNicola
Just.
- [32:36]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. Don't want to, don't want to get up that early and report to work. Prefer to work from home and wake
- [32:41]
Meg Riley
up whenever I'm about to emerge from weird ass Arizona time. I'm not looking forward to it. We're about to go back to three hours.
- [32:49]
Ben Lindbergh
That's right. Yeah. Mountain standard. Yeah. It's an interesting little interlude in your year.
- [32:54]
Meg Riley
It's the best, best time of year, Ben. It's the best time of year and I wish that I just lived in it all the time. All the time, Ben. Why can't I just live in it all the time?
- [33:07]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, you could if you moved to another area. Maybe that's in that time zone all the time.
- [33:12]
Meg Riley
Yeah, but. But I want to be able to have my cake and eat it in Arizona, you know, that'd be nice.
- [33:18]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. Also, we talked about Atlanta and how things have, have gone poorly for them this year with the injuries to Waldrop and Schwellenbach and Hassan Kim and then the suspension for Profar. Also, we haven't gotten to the, the Braves preview and we will, and we'll talk about all that and we'll get to the Dodgers preview too. Things aren't going great for the Dodgers from a pitching hell standpoint either, which I mentioned just to say that, yes, we know that the Dodgers are, are the super favorites. They're the best team in baseball. They have the highest win total projection, et cetera. They actually, I think they have the highest World Series odds in Fang graphs, playoff odds, history. Right now they're sitting at 27.5% chance probability of winning the World Series. And that's like triple any other team. The Mariners, whom we were about to Preview, are at 8.6. So obvious favorites. And the projected win total still sitting at 99, which is like 10 more than any other team. But the cracks in, in the foundation and the pitching staff are starting to show. Not that I think the Dodgers are in any trouble. They're going to be great, obviously. But just when people are looking ahead and saying, like, are they going to set records? Are they going to challenge the single season wins record, are they going to be a total juggernaut? Or will it be more like last year where they peaked at the right time, but for much of the season they were kind of meh and disappointing and they won only 93 games. You know, that's when everything goes wrong for them. They win only 90, 93 games. I know, cry me a river. But same pitchers, you know, for the most part. And those pitchers are fragile. And Blake Snell, who is foremost among those, maybe he's, he's having some injury issues and, you know, he probably won't be ready for opening day. And then Gavin Stone, who of course had a serious shoulder injury, he's having some discomfort in that shoulder. And Roki Sasaki, as Michael Bauman, blogged at fan graphs looking quite shaky, not so much from a health standpoint as from a command and mechanical consistency standpoint. So it's still an embarrassment of riches. Like Dodgers are going to be Fine. But if you're trying to project, are they going to lap the league and are they even going to try to, or will they content themselves to just probably being a 90 something win team and you know, probably just easily winning that division, but, but not setting any records or really blowing anyone away. I kind of lean more toward the latter just because this kind of stuff, it's going to crop up all season. And, and I don't think the Dodgers in most cases really took it easy last year. I don't think they were routinely saying, don't bother coming back, you know, we just need you in October. I think guys legitimately did get hurt because those guys have a history of doing that. But there's also something to like, well, well, we don't need you to rush back by opening day, like, we're gonna be okay. We'll. We'll have forever Ryan in the rotation or whatever. You know, we have the depth. But. But yeah, like it's gonna be a Dodgers esque pitching staff again with all that entails, the good and the bad. Yeah.
- [36:32]
Meg Riley
And look, no one cares about my I told you so's, but like, we, we told you so. You know, part of what allows them to be as good as they are is that they have all this depth to call upon is that they have the luxury of saying, hey, hey, hey, don't rush it. You know, you don't have to rush it. And oh, by the way, you're going to be backstopped by this, like, incredibly good bullpen. So it's, it's so rare. It's so rare for a team to get through a whole season with, you know, five or six guys. And I think what sets them apart is like the quality of the options that they have behind those guys.
- [37:13]
Ben Lindbergh
Right.
- [37:13]
Meg Riley
And if those guys get hurt or they underperform, well, hey, you got a really deep farm system and go get, go get new guys. You know, you could just try to go get some new guys.
- [37:21]
Ben Lindbergh
That's the thing. It's like, well, not they're paying Roki much, but they're paying Blake Snell, obviously. And for a lot of teams, you lose Blake Snell for however long, that's a big blow. That's the problem. The Dodgers, it's like, yeah, you know, they'll be all right. He'll come back whenever.
- [37:35]
Meg Riley
And to be clear, it's not, not a problem for that them, but it's not as big of a problem as it would be for almost any other team.
- [37:43]
Christina DiNicola
Right.
- [37:43]
Meg Riley
Like, even, even without Roki's spring performance, which is alarming. You know, I feel like I end up being this weird contrarian when it comes to the Dodgers. And I don't, I don't mean to be a contrarian. I don't want Roki to not do well. I did maybe invite people to consider whether they were overreacting to his relief work in the postseason last year. I did issue that invitation. No one took me up on it anyway. I'm sure that even if Roki spring were going better in a vacuum, they'd still rather have Snell than Roki in, in the rotation at this juncture. Just because you, you want to know what you're getting. You want to have some reliability. You know, you want a guy who can, can give you, you know, work in, in the two threes from like an era or fit perspective is what I mean by that. But they are positioned to weather it better than, than most clubs.
- [38:42]
Ben Lindbergh
So, yeah, it's just they're going to be great. But are they going to be great or are they going to be historically great? And I think I'd probably lean more towards the former just because I don't think they have really any incentive to pursue the historical greatness they're trying to pursue is just continuing to be a dynasty and repeat. So. Right. Yeah.
- [39:01]
Meg Riley
The way that they're measuring these things is not, not in regular season terms, like I. It's not that the regular season doesn't matter to them. You know, they obviously have strong incentives to like win the division. They have strong incentives to try to get a buy, especially if they have pitching injuries stacking, you know, come September, they might look ahead to the, to October and say, wow, it's really great that we don't have to play in the wild card round. So it's not that that doesn't matter. And you know, they're all professionals. They, they have individual incentives as players to do well. But the, the sort of yardstick is just different for them than it is for most clubs. And I think that they are careful and strategic about that stuff. And if they run into a historically great regular season team, it's going to almost be on accident. Right. It's not, it's not that they're not concerned with the results, but they just, you know, they want another trophy when it's all said and done.
- [40:01]
Ben Lindbergh
Yep. And it doesn't seem like their division rivals are push them to quite the extent that they have some of them in recent years. And I guess 2024 was kind of the worst case scenario because they did enter the postseason with a just drastically diminished rotation and they were trying to piece it together with a good bullpen and then they won the World Series anyway. So even though everything went wrong for them that year, they still won. And then last year they had the great rotation and it was really rounding into form at the right time and the bullpen was bad and they still made that work. So I guess everyone watch out if they actually enter October with a good rotation and a good bullpen at the same time. Well, maybe that's the year that they'll just have another early round loss because it's baseball can't predict it. Susan and the last thing that I will note, there's been a lot of talk about the creativity of slides. Sam Miller has written about this at Pebble Hunting and Zach Kreiser has written about this and he just addressed this again in his substack the bandwagon in and it's hard to quantify, it's hard to measure. But Sam's perception, Zach's perception was that players have gotten more inventive when it comes to sliding and various maneuvers and swim moves and whatever else, and that in the past, if the ball beat you, you would just accept your fate, essentially. And now no one does. It's always you're trying to do some sort of spin move or something. And, and Sam even suggested that like if you get stuck, stuck in a pickle, you shouldn't even do what what teams have done historically or players trying to evade a pickle just, you know, try to stay away and go back and forth. But you should just run toward the base and try to do some clever fancy slide because that seems to be the best way to evade the out these days. But it's hard to quantify because what are you going to do? Watch every single slide. And it's, it's, you know, it just seems super time intensive and kind of subjective. But Zach took a run at it and he did a little study and he just looked, going back to 2016, which I think was the first season he could easily access via MLB.com's video search. And he looked at outs, I guess non forced outs, where a tag was applied at home plate in 2016 and 2025 and he watched 50 of those and he just tagged them as like, well, was it a head first slide? Was there a swim move? Was there any attempt to dodge the T bag? And it's a smallish sample, I'm not saying it's definitive, but he did find that head first slides have become more common in the sample that he recorded here went up from 12% in 2016 to 32% in 2025. And I think we had some data in a previous stat blast about head first sliding versus foot first sliding. Also, 40% of runners attempted a dodge according to Zach's classifications in 2016, and that was up to 52% of runners this past season. And swim moves were like 4% in each. But there have been some creative kinds of moves. So it does seem as if there's something to it based on this research. And there are lots of reasons why this would be true. Obviously, replay review probably being the primary one, because there's just more incentive to actually evade the tag. In the past it might have just been, well, the ball beat him, he's out. But now you can appeal that and if you actually manage to avoid the tag, then you can be safe. So it makes sense to put extra effort into it, plus just generally increasing athleticism of players. So I think it's true. I think this is at least one interesting attempt to bring a little data to bear in this discussion. And I like it. I think it's good. And Zach credits, like Javi Baez and how everyone was. Was obsessed with his both applying tags but also avoiding tags and that. And Sam has tried to trace, like, who started the swim move and has talked about, like, Juan Pierre and Kenny Lofton. It wasn't unheard of in the past, but it does seem to be becoming more common and I think that's good. And as Zach says, like, once something gets established as the analytically correct move, then it becomes standardized and everyone does it and then it's a little less interesting. So he kind of wants it to remain in this zone where not everyone does the exact same move every time because it's unpredictable and it's surprising and it's. It's visually interesting. So he kind of doesn't want this to be quantified, even though he sort of made a little attempt to quantify it too, but has to help. Like, it's got to be worth at least trying to evade a tag as opposed to just resigning yourself to your fate. Unless there's more of an injury risk or something, you might as well well go for it. And yeah, it's fun because, like, you assume that someone's going to be out.
- [44:53]
Meg Riley
You look cool.
- [44:54]
Christina DiNicola
Yeah.
- [44:55]
Ben Lindbergh
And it's one of the more impressive. Like, you're not going to get some sort of football move. Exactly. You're. You're not going to get like, you know, leaping backward over someone entirely, but occasionally you do get something that's kind of close to that. And yeah, it's. It's really impressive because you just, as a viewer, you accept he's out, and then, oh, what, we're spared from that fate? Wow. And then it's. When you watch the replay, it just gets better and better because you appreciate the athleticism of, like, oh, he stopped and then he. He fainted and he dodged and it's. Yeah, it's great. So if this has, in fact become more pervasive and it makes sense to me that it has, then I think that's good, and I think it should remain more pervasive. And I guess you wouldn't end up with everyone just sort of, well, this is the best, best way to slide or to avoid a tag. So I'll just do that same move over and over because then the meta will change. Like, the fielders will expect that maneuver, and then you'd have to do something different. So it'll constantly change, hopefully.
- [45:55]
Meg Riley
Yeah. And it does feel like a place where I'm mindful that there is a range of athletic moves that would result in a successful dodge. It's not like it's.
- [46:07]
Christina DiNicola
It's a.
- [46:08]
Meg Riley
It's an infinite continuum of individuality, but it does strike me as a place where there is a lot of room for a guy to, like, have his move, you know, to like, have a thing that he pulls. Yeah. Pulls off particularly well. And to your point, you know, fielders will adapt and, and race runners will have to sort of adapt back, but I don't know. I think it's pretty cool. I like it. Yeah, it looks cool. Be cool.
- [46:33]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. Okay. Well, keep doing it. And. And it's a nice rebuttal, I think, to all the complaints about fundamentals and baseball players. And maybe there's something to that in some cases that they're not as well drilled or schooled in certain rules and situations. But this is an area where. I don't know if you'd call it a fundamental. Exactly, because in the past, it. It wasn't. Not that they're, you know, you had all sorts of hook slides and Cobb managing to find a corner of the base or something. But, yeah, I think this has gotten more inventive and creative, and that's a testament to the ath of players. So good for them. And now let's talk about the Mariners, followed by the Marwin's, and. And we'll talk about the other nailer, Josh, in just A moment here, and I see that his height has remained unchanged. So last year he was listed at 510 and his brother Bo was at 6ft. And now Josh is still at 5 10, but Bo is at 5 9. This. So now. Yeah, Josh, Josh, Josh. Reality and also in public perception, is now taller than his brother after being a couple inches, quote, unquote, shorter. This had to have come up with them, right, because they each know how tall they are in relation to each other. You know, Josh had to be like, bo, come on. Like, you're, you're telling me you're two inches taller than, than I am? That's. It must be vindication. Like, Josh on some level has to be happy that he got busted down to five nine here.
- [47:57]
Meg Riley
Yeah, I, I do appreciate that he. We talked about this a little in the preview with, with Devesh, but I'm struggling to think of a time when a fan base has responded to a guy quite so strongly and when a guy in a way that feels different than, than Harper, but I suppose is like, you know, variation on the same theme. Like, Josh Naylor just keeps showing up to camp in like, a different Seattle sports team's jersey. I want to know who his jersey supplier is because he's, he's really covering all of his bases and, you know, like, it's great. He'll, he'll do Seahawks, he'll do Storm. He'll, you know, he, he's Canadian, so he loves the Kraken. He's going to the super bowl with the guys. He's just like, Seattle's the best. I love Seattle.
- [48:46]
Ryan Divish
Yep.
- [48:47]
Meg Riley
We're really, we're really easy to please in a lot of ways, you know, and not nearly as aggressive as people from Philly.
- [48:55]
Christina DiNicola
We're.
- [48:55]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, he is taking a page out of the Bryce Harper pandering playbook. But what.
- [48:59]
Meg Riley
We're just like. And he likes the Jo Dogs and he's, he's, he's a nice guy. We.
- [49:05]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. The other day when, when Jen Powell was behind home plate and he went up and, and shook her hand and then people asked him about it and he said. What did he say? He just. He wants to be inclusive no matter race, no matter gender. It's not hard to be inclusive and welcoming and happy. Nice sentiment. Not one you often hear professional baseball players express. So good vibes. Guy seems like everyone likes having a birthday around.
- [49:31]
Christina DiNicola
Yeah.
- [49:32]
Ben Lindbergh
Okay. Well, let's talk about him and his teammates in just a moment with Ryan Divish, A fan. Goss Beast Ball Podcast. Listen, our emails that Blast romantic baseball ch Every weekday, break down your favorite pastime. Sit down, relax and unwind as we learn how t Word. All right, we are ready to talk about the Seattle Mariners, something we do fairly often on this podcast. But we'll be focusing on especially during this segment, which will star Ryan Divish, who covers the Mariners for the Seattle Times and is once again joining us to preview the upcoming season. Welcome back, Ryan.
- [50:41]
Ryan Divish
Good to be back.
- [50:42]
Ben Lindbergh
So successful season, right? Last year, not so bad. Tell us a little bit about how the Mariners were feeling coming off of that season, establishing themselves seemingly finally as the class of the division, even heading into an off season and season as the favorites, if not just only in the division, some might say even in the league. I don't want to jinx anything. I can sense Meg cringing as I'm even saying such optimistic things about the Mariners, but hard not to feel pretty good about the team coming off of last year despite them ultimately being thwarted in their playoff run.
- [51:21]
Ryan Divish
I started doing. I started covering the Mariners in 2006. I started doing spring training in 2008. I've done every spring training since then. I don't recall a time where there was this much optimism and this much, this many expectations about a team in all those years. I mean, like, there were years where you thought, okay, these guys are pretty good. They can make the postseason or they're pretty good, maybe they could challenge for the division, division. You walk in now, it's like, and a lot of times those, those teams, like the Marco Gonzalez teams and stuff, they would always tell you, no, we're better than you guys think we are. We're good. But, like, you walk into this camp and they're not telling us that they're good. We know they're good. Everybody knows they're good. It's so different. I have never once went in and said, this is a team that should win the division and should probably play in the World Series if everything goes right. I've never once said that. And anytime, like, where they had postseason, it was like, I thought predict them to be a postseason. It was always, well, if this happens or if this happens, if this guy has a breakout year. Like, to me, if these guys just play kind of to their standards, that's as good as a team as I've ever covered.
- [52:32]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, it's like, it's less about what would have to go right than what would have to go wrong, I guess.
- [52:37]
Ryan Divish
Oh, exactly, Exactly. I mean, like, and I think it's. Every team is about injuries and such, but like with the Mariners, like I look at their, their lineup and it's not like wowing and like the Dodgers where it's like one through five are the like these huge stars. But if you look at their lineup one through nine, especially their projected lineup against right handed starters, it's, it's really, really good lineup that, that I probably have not covered it lineup this strong because even in the years of Cano Cruz and Seeger Jean Segura, the joy that was Jean Segura, like their bottom four spots were pretty weak week. This, this isn't like that. This is the deepest and like most consistent lineup I've seen from them.
- [53:20]
Meg Riley
And it is going to have some new faces or at least one new and one newish face. The Mariners had sort of a funny off season in which they, they did a lot of their shopping very early and then they had the rest of it come together late. So maybe we can start with what made them so enthusiastic about bringing Josh Naylor back and then we can talk about the Brendan Donovan trade. Because I think that, that prior to that trade a lot of Mariners fans were looking at this saying like, who's going to play third base? You don't seem to have one on the roster. How is this infield going to come together? And to your point, it looks like a much more cohesive group now and a, a more versatile one with Donovan. So talk to us about Naylor and then let's talk about Donovan.
- [54:02]
Ryan Divish
Yeah, so like with Josh Naylor, I've never really seen a player come in, in a trade and reach like cultish hero status that quickly. I mean is, and like how much fans embraced him. And granted like Mariners fans are a unique bunch. Meg, I'm sorry, but they are. You're, you're a unique bunch of folks from the Maple Grove to, you know, Thai France, Berets and all this stuff. They like a bit.
- [54:33]
Christina DiNicola
Yeah, they love a bit.
- [54:35]
Ryan Divish
They love their players and they love the little kind of quirkiness of it. But like Josh Naylor came in and it was, they liked everything about him as a player, like the intensity that he plays with and the kind of like the drive. And then you looked at their lineup and here's the guy that comes in and doesn't strike out quite as much and is willing to work at bats. And then he started stealing bases and all these other things and it was just kind of a really good fit. Like that kind of of intensity and kind of the, the edge that he plays with. Because I've said this about this Mariners team, like, this group of guys that have come up through the organization, they're the nicest group of human beings that I've ever covered. Like, legitimately good people. You know, Logan Gilbert and Cal Raleigh, George Kirby, they're all nice. Even Julio, like, they're, they're, they have every reason to not be like, good people, but they are. That's just who they are. And they, you. But sometimes you need that edge. And like Josh Naylor plays with an edge on the field and I think that intensity helped them. But I think just the fit, like I said, like his, he's more bad to ball. He's not a huge strikeout guy. He embraced being in Seattle, which a lot of guys that get there don't, and it just all worked. And God bless Jerry Depot for being open about everything and just being transparent, like the day, the season or the day out. A couple days after the season ended and even going towards the playoffs, they said the, that look, bringing Josh Naylor back would be a priority because of how he fit and how the fans embraced him and how well he fit in with their, their club and how much the players liked him. Like, they want. This team likes to work. And what we've seen in the past is if you don't work and you don't prepare, you get shunned pretty quickly and you get, you know, moved out of town pretty quickly. We call it the Jesse, the Jesse Winker Theorem. And so, so I think, you know, when, when Naylor arrives and guys like Julio and Cal and, you know, these guys embrace him and they think, hey, we gotta have him. And they're talking about how much they like him, how much they want him back. The organization listened and they went out and, you know, got a free agent, a free agent position player. The most they've ever spent on a free agent position player in Jerry Depot's era. And, you know, it was such a no brainer in terms of the fit and they got it done. What's crazy too is this is like. And I know we haven't written it yet, yet my buddy Adam Judah is writing it. He's doing like a. Josh Naylor's opening interview when he came back for spring training was so good and so long, like almost 40 minutes that we're, we're doing three stories on it. One is the, you know, obviously one was the story about him and the dog Tucker, you know, and then one is that dog. Yeah. One is about, like, Naylor embracing sports culture in Seattle and wearing the different jerseys from all the teams. And then the other one is about Josh Naylor Mailer telling the Mariners, I want to sign early. The money. He was like, he didn't really care that much about the money. I mean, obviously he cares, but like, if all things were equal, he was going to sign with the Mariners. He told the Mariners that he wanted to get it done and get it done early so he wouldn't hold them hostage during the off season so they can move on and add other pieces. Because they told him they were looking at Brendan Donovan. He's like, I love that guy. I'm going to sign early so you guys can get this done. You're not waiting around for me to get it figured out out. And then, you know, you miss out on players that could help us. So let's get it done and move. And I think that's, that's really cool and it's really smart on his part. And so it all worked. They got it done early and you know, then we get to Brendan Donovan who they try like honestly, the, the framework for the deal that they made, at least the part about da going to the Cardinals, that was agreed upon in like November when they first approached H. Bloom about it. H. Bloom is known to be very meticulous and very kind of, of kind of methodical when making deals. And he went in and I think part of the problem was is he went and he took over the organization, Cardinals organization and like the reports that they had on other teams, prospects from their pro scouts and stuff, like, I don't know if he didn't, wouldn't say he didn't trust it, but he wanted to use his guys and all of his metrics and algorithms to run through all the prospects of all the teams that they were looking at trading Donovan to. And there were a lot, I mean like I would probably venture to get guess that 15 teams were interested in adding Brendan Donovan for a lot of reasons. The Mariners were always one of the first ones. They. Well, they tried last year to get him too and last off season. And so, you know, there's, they had the, the initial framework of Cincha and, and some other pieces and then what the, the kind of hang up was they were going to, they were offering Williamson and sent you to the Cardinals. And the Cardinals like Ben Williamson doesn't fit their window. He's old, older, you know, he's on the 40 man. Like they want guys that aren't on 40 mans prospects younger. And Williamson didn't fit that. And so these as they were trying to get it worked out. These two dudes that you guys are familiar with, Dave Cameron and Jeff Sullivan, kind of had some texts about Ben Williamson and the Rays weren't, kind of weren't aware that Ben Williamson, the most raised player that ever Raid, was available for a deal. And so once, you know, Eric Neander jumps in with Bloom and with Jerry, it just, it happened quick. You know, you move the picks and everything gets kind of slotted out in the three way trade. But Brendan Donovan is like a mixture between Naylor in terms of intensity and everything he does and kind of like Cal Raleigh, you know, just kind of how they go about their business. And he fit in perfectly. Like within days these guys are all just raving about how Brendan Donovan fits in with their mindset and their kind of their culture culture and you know, the fact that he can play second or third, even stand in left field if you need him. And a.360,361 career on base percentage, that fits really nicely with what they want to do.
- [60:09]
Ben Lindbergh
Julio is so good that it's hard not to get greedy and to extrapolate the portions of his season when he's hitting well to the entire season and imagine what that would mean. And he's probably sick of hearing and talking about his slow starts, but it is a perennial pattern. And I know that he has tried to do some things differently in the past to get off to a faster start. Is he talking about that? Is he doing anything this year to try to break this pattern finally?
- [60:41]
Ryan Divish
Yeah, you know, we haven't like specifically just said, hey, how do you get off to a faster start? I, I think he knows it and you know, it's like asking him about that or asking about swing changes that just, you know, he kind of like shuts it down on that. He doesn't like to talk about it. But I do think, think that from a mental standpoint and like a maturity standpoint, he's in a better place than he's ever been in terms of having an approach that is sustainable for more consistent success. I look at the last few years coming in, I know I wrote about it, but like there was always kind of, there was a stance change, there was a swing change, there was an approach change, and there was a lot of different voices also telling what he needed to do at the plate, you know, pull side power. We need this, we need that. And I think, think he didn't really have. And it's crazy to think about it because he's, he's so good. He's Been a star for as long as, you know, he existed because that's. He's always believed he was going to be a star, but, like, he didn't have an identity of who he was as a hitter, like an approach, an outcome kind of things, like what he was trying to do other than just be good at the plate. And I think last year it started to come together. I think working with Edgar Martinez and the simplification that Edgar kind of measures things with and how he goes about it, I think was. Was really good for Julio. And I think the big thing was, is like, he stopped trying to pull the ball, and he actually pulled the ball a little bit more or with a little bit more success. I think he. He tried to stay more to all parts of the field. And he realized too, that his ability to drive the baseball to right center is special. And not a lot of guys can do that. So why, why go away from that? And so I think, think, like all this stuff, like, he just seemed like a different player that second half. And in understanding who he was and what he was trying to do, you know, we saw the strikeouts decrease, the strikeout rate decrease some. You know, I thought, like, from the last two months, he was one of the best players in baseball. Then you look at it, and I'm looking at now like he has.798 OPS. He hit 32 homers, stole 30 bags. And this is with like two months where it was really bad. Like, it wasn't good at all all. So if he's just even sort of good or even average.
- [62:51]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [62:52]
Ryan Divish
Like in those two or three months, like, what is it? We're talking 4040. I mean, I think that's, you know, if he puts it all together, we're talking 40.
- [62:59]
Ben Lindbergh
40.
- [62:59]
Ryan Divish
Right. Like, he's, you're, you know, 900 ops more. It's just, it's crazy. I think he was searching for slug and tried to force it while also trying to reduce the strikeouts and just was a weird spot. I think he was trying to. To figure out who he was as a hitter. I think it's in a better spot this year, and I do think that going and playing in the WBC games helps him a little bit as well. You know, you get ratcheted up. You have really, really competitive at bats, and I think that's going to help him as well.
- [63:29]
Meg Riley
I want to take us back to the infield because we talked about Donovan sort of helping them to solve at least part of their infield puzzle. He brings versatility. This is an era of Mariners baseball where, where not all, but a lot of their most promising prospects are actually position players. So talk to us about how the rest of this group fits in. Is there room for Colt Emerson to sort of force the issue and make the opening day roster? And if he does, how do they think about playing time with him, Cole Young and JP Crawford?
- [64:02]
Ryan Divish
You know, going in, I think there was a chance for him to make the roster. It was going to be kind of a narrow fit because I think they, they really want Cole Young to be their everyday second baseman or close to it. Basically my thinking was is that like Cole was going to have to play his way back to AAA during spring for that to happen. Because I think they know that like Colt is still, you know, while very talented, also very inexperienced at the upper levels and I think, you know, the trajectory is strong, but at the same time I think they would feel more comfortable if he started the season with AAA and played for one while. So I, I'm not seeing it like Cole has played well enough here to kind of keep his spot and you can't have Colt Emerson on your roster unless you're going to play him all the time. And I just don't know that there's a fit. They're, they're really left handed as a roster as it is. So I think he's going to start the season in AAA and be ready to go. If Cole were to struggle or if JP were to be, you know, the shoulder issue creeps up with JP again or, you know, somebody goes on the il, I think he's going to be called up and debut also. They weren't, you know, a year ago at this time, they weren't expecting Cole to progress or Colt to progress as fast as he did through the, the minor leagues and have the success. You know, they put him in Tacoma for the AAA for the PCL playoffs because Leo Rivas got called up and they needed a shortstop there. And I mean, but you know, this is a kid that started out in high A, went to double A, that was in AAA by the end of the season. His last year accelerated his path to the big leagues. And I don't know that they were expecting that because like there were questions internally coming it going into last season whether or not he would stick at shortstop, all these other things. And so Colt answered a lot of those and kind of sped up his timeline and the Mariners are kind of adjusting to that as well.
- [65:50]
Ben Lindbergh
Okay, Cal. So I talked a lot last year about his history of actually hitting better later in the season despite never seeming to take a day off. Cuz I was trying to project, well, what is his pace and can he keep it up? And for once he did actually hit worse after the All Star break than before. But I think we can give him a pass given that he had a 176 WRC plus before the all Star break. Pretty tough to top that. And he declined, quote unquote all the way to 140 after the all Star break. So not too shabby. So, so what's a realistic baseline or expectation for him? I guess because it would be hard for a year like that not to be a career year really for anyone. He wasn't the mvp, but he was the star of the season in the al. So how much regression should we expect? How huge a power hitter does he see himself as now? You know, like what should fans realistically think they're going to get out of him? And will there ever come a point where he plays a little less or catches a little less?
- [66:57]
Ryan Divish
We'll never see a season like that from a catcher ever again. I'm pretty, I'm, I'm pretty certain of that. Like I don't make a lot of predictions in that regard like that certainty, but a 60 homer season from a catcher just, I don't think we'll ever see that, you know, obviously. And I think he knows like that's not because he didn't, you know, when he hit 50 he thought that was a ton. So I mean like he had 30 and 34 the two years before that. I think given kind of how he's figured out some of it, like what he wants to do at the plate and staying behind the ball and how to elevate it from both sides of the plate and being like a super viable right handed here now. Like I'm thinking 40 home runs is very realistic especially if he plays 155 to 160 games. I mean he played 159 games games last year. Like you wondered is it going to slow him down or whatever. But he doesn't believe that it does. The he believes that playing more actually keeps him better. What is his favorite thing is motion is lotion. That the, the more he plays the better he feels that when he takes a couple days off or whatever that that's when he starts to feel sore. So you know, somebody asked him if he could catch 125 games this year and he took that like personal. Like of course I can. Like he was bothered by somebody questioning or not whether he could catch 125. Because in his mind he wants to catch 135, you know, and then Dh, you know, the other 33 or whatever is. Or 30, 31, I don't know. He wants to, he wants to catch and he has this sense of responsibility about the pitchers and how the defense is run that like, I wouldn't say it's trust issues where he doesn't trust other people to do it, but he just, he has a belief that he needs to be back there more often than not. And so every year we hear, oh, we gotta, they gotta get him rest and. And I guess I'll believe it when I see it because he's gonna push to play. Now, to them, an off day is a DH day, but I'm, I'm assuming he'll catch 130 games again this year. I don't see why he wouldn't. You know, barring injury, if he's healthy, he's gonna want to be back there because he's kind of likes to be in control of everything.
- [69:04]
Ben Lindbergh
Sounds like a good reason to trade Harry Ford.
- [69:07]
Ryan Divish
Yeah.
- [69:08]
Meg Riley
Kind of surprising it took as long as it did. Candidly, you know, we talked about Colt Emerson, but I'm curious, are there other guys sort of floating around the High Miners who you think are first to get the call in the event that something happens to the opening day group?
- [69:23]
Ryan Divish
Well, I mean, like as Logan Gilbert said to me, well, you only write about the prospect X the. You know, obviously the talk of early camp was cult, but it's been Kate Anderson and Ryan Sloan. I mean, for Kate Anderson, never throwing a professional pitch in a game, he's on a pretty accelerated pace. And Ryan Sloan, this manchild at 20 who's got a face of a 12 year old and a body of like
- [69:50]
Ben Lindbergh
Garrett Cole or a unicorn, as some might say.
- [69:55]
Ryan Divish
Yeah.
- [69:56]
Meg Riley
Did he say Centaur?
- [69:58]
Ben Lindbergh
Centaur, Sorry. Yes.
- [70:00]
Ryan Divish
Well, he could be a unicorn too,
- [70:01]
Ben Lindbergh
like, or a fawn.
- [70:02]
Ryan Divish
But no, I would think that those two will debut at some point during the regular season. I don't know when. You know, obviously there's always some attrition to your, your starting rotation. That was a big problem with the Mariners last year. But like, they're going to both go to High High A and Everett and start there. I think they'll be in Double A really relatively quick. And from there, like, if a starter goes down for a while, they have Emerson Hancock. But I mean, like, if you have two starters out, I think one of those guys will be up. And like, to me it's not impossible to see Ryan Sloan pitching relief in the postseason, coming in for one inning, you know, as part of his growth to being a starter, coming for one inning and just blowing guys away with 100 miles an hour of fastball that cuts and rides at the same time, and the new two seamer that he hasn't thrown in a game, but it's just nasty. Like, I think those are guys that they will help this Mariners team have success this year at some point or another.
- [70:59]
Meg Riley
Yeah, the. The 2024 group was definitely marked by its consistency in the rotation. They were shockingly healthy, and obviously they had injuries to most of the guys in the starting five last year. Maybe we can start with two of them that sort of had a step backward, hopefully for their sake as a result of injury. Talk to us about what went wrong for George Kirby and sort of how he's planning to course, because watching George Kirby walk guys is an uncomfortable experience. I think it's. His command is well known enough that it's even uncomfortable for people who aren't Mariners fans. But what went wrong for Kirby and how does he kind of right the ship this year?
- [71:40]
Ryan Divish
I just think everything got off to kind of a wonky start for him. It was, what, two weeks or a week into spring training or maybe two weeks in, and all of a sudden he had shoulder fatigue and inflammation, and that set him down. And I. I think he. I think he worked hard to get back at an accelerated pace, and it just wasn't like the whole kind of routine of it all was kind of off, you know, in talking with some of their coaches, everybody thought it was health, but it was also the mentality that he had when he came back, and they were just kind of like some of the intent with what he was trying to do wasn't the same as before and just kind of got in his head a bit. And he even admitted that. That, you know, he kind of got away from what he. Who he was and what he was trying to do do. Part of the walks came from the idea that he was trying to be too fine and trying to always throw the perfect pitch. And that isn't really who George is. It was like, no, I'm just going to throw it down the middle because I think my stuff's really good and I throw strikes and I never want to throw a ball. So, you know, in talking with him and talking with some of the pitching coaches, they felt like towards the end last year, he was a lot different. He'd made some kind of changes to how he was like the intent with what he was doing on the mound and how he was trying to get hitters out. I know a lot of people blame him. His arm slot. Oh, the lower arm slot is bad and this and that. I think it's more of a natural arm slot. And another thing was he got away from the splitter last year. You know, he doesn't like his breaking balls are good pitches, but they're not like wipeout, swing and miss pitches. He'll get swing and miss, but the, the. The splitter offered the one thing that was really kind of would generate a swing and miss and he, he just put it in his pocket because he couldn't command it. Didn't like, it just didn't feel right. And part of that was, you know, I think missing six weeks to start the season, so he didn't use it. And I think that's a big reason why too, is that when you don't have that wipeout pitch and you're in the zone as much as he does, you get a lot of foul balls and you get a lot of stuff and counts get longer and all of a sudden that, that's how you run into walks is if you don't, you know, you get to two strikes quick and you can't put a guy away. That's how you inevitably get into walks. And I think it's also the mindset of, of why he got a little too fine with his, with his command or tried to be too fine because he didn't have that put away pitch that maybe he needed. I think he's been throwing the splitter this year and it's looked really good. I think that's going to be a big piece of why he's going to be successful. Like I think I wrote in the paper that I, I predicted, predicted him to finish in the top three in Cy Young voting this year.
- [74:01]
Ben Lindbergh
Not bad. Bold, but, but fair. Take us through the rest of the rotation, I guess, particularly the back Bryce Miller, for instance. Obviously there were issues late last year in the postseason. Brian Woo was hurt and Miller had to fit in. So how does the rest of that situation shape up? Of course, Logan Evans, the other Logan, had Tommy John surgery in January. So what's the depth like and who would be next up potentially?
- [74:32]
Ryan Divish
See, I think the, you know, Logan Gilbert will still be at the front. I don't know if he starts on opening day or not, but, you know, he's coming back off of kind of a difficult year as well. Just, you know, just wasn't very efficient, you know, after going 200 innings the year before. 200, 200 guy. Then just the flexer kind of creeped up and I think first time in his life he'd ever been on the il. So I think he's kind of done some revamping on how he wants to do things, and I think he'll. He should be better. Brian Wu had a breakout year last year. He was outstanding. I mean, he really was. And, you know, he kind of moved up the food chain in terms of who their frontline starters are. You know, I think we'll see him as either the one or the team two, you know, him and Logan and then slot it out from there and, you know, woo with him. It's just so efficient and just the, the fast balls and how he does stuff like he's not trying to add, he's just trying to get better. I think that's big for him. And then the, the, the back end will be Luis Castillo and Bryce Miller. I mean, Bryce Miller is dealing with a little bit of an, like, side issue. They won't call an oblique strain because it didn't really register on the strains like when they had the mri. But he just had some soreness in his side. He's already throwing again. But it is odd. Like, I, I think we were all certain he was going to have surgery to remove the bone spurs in his elbow. He didn't. He had a. Found an injection that worked better. You know, was kind of leery of it. And I thought we saw like, the injection he got last year towards the end helped him, and he was much better in the postseason. He was one of their better pitchers in the postseason. He's going to be better, I think, simply because he was pitching through some discomfort early on and just never got back. And they didn't have a solution for it, but they think they've found a solution with this sinis injection. It's like a gel. So I expect him to be. Have a bounce back. And then Luis Castillo, you know, like, wasn't, what, three years ago, this dude was throwing like 99. And everybody was talking about he's the ace. And now everybody's thinking, well, you got to trade him because he's not any good anymore. He still takes the ball 30 times. And I think at the, at the number five, if you're, technically, if you're number four and five are Luis Castillo and Bryce, Mike Miller. Those are good problems to have your rotation. You know, like, people are like, oh, man, they're just A five. I mean, like, I don't know that people understand what number five pitchers look like on other teams, but like, that's, you know, Luis Castile going out there and taking the ball 30 times. And really, he only had the really, really bad stretch in August, and his V dipped a bit, command was off. And they had found something kind of wonky in his mechanics, and they cleaned it up. And then all of a sudden it got better again. So there's five guys. Let's say they even got 25 starts out of all those guys. Guys. I mean, that's a really good rotation that's going to put up good numbers. Last year, they didn't get that as much. Emerson Hancock and Logan Evans were able to fill in and be really good. I mean, I. If I had told Meg last year that Bryce Miller would miss three months of the season, George Kirby was miss six weeks, Logan Gilbert would miss six weeks, and the Mariners would win the AL west, she would never believe me. She'd ask me what I was drinking, you know, like. And I.
- [77:33]
Meg Riley
Or if a comet had hit the city of Houston.
- [77:35]
Ryan Divish
But like, that's. They're poised to have a better year from the rotation. And the depth would be Emerson Hancock, who has looked really good this spring and has kind of, you know, continually progressed. I think a lot of people, when he was taking what, five, felt like he was going to be ready to go, but they've had to rework some stuff with him. He's found a. A sweeper that works. It's about 70 miles an hour to go with a gyro slider. Refining his fastballs to understand that you need to throw a 2 and a 4. 4. And he still has the really good change up. I. I think he's going to be pretty effective for them in that spot starter role. They also have Cooper Criswell, who they picked up from the Red Sox, and he's, you know, he's solid. It's got the different arm angles. He'll be there. He could be a. A spot starter, but given that he's out of options, he'll be the, the long guy in the bullpen if all the guys in rotation are healthy. And so, you know, they have those two guys, and then after that, it's the kids. You know, they could see him up if they need them. That's. That's. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw him.
- [78:31]
Meg Riley
This bullpen group projects quite well, and it's a lot of familiar faces, although there's a couple of new ones. You Noted Criswell. And then also Jose A. Ferrer. Hopefully putting the A in there and, and me we should maybe linger on Ferrer for a moment before we talk about the rest of the group because I joked that it kind of took him a long time to trade Harry Ford and Ferrer was the, the, you know, the return for that. So what did they see in him that made them comfortable parting with Ford?
- [79:00]
Ryan Divish
They had been willing to move Harry for a while, like you had mentioned. I can't believe they hadn't traded sooner. But like just he was a part of a lot of packages that they were trying to do in the, you know, at the deadline last year, in the off season before that. What they like in Ferrer is another left handed power arm who throws strikes and attacks. You know, they, they like that kind of aspect. Just get after guys, attack, attack, attack. He does that. That, you know, they need a compliment to Gabe Spire who threw a ton last year. So they, there's, they were looking for a left handed arm that had some, you know, leverage experience. And you know, Ferrer's peripheral numbers last year aren't great like the, the main numbers I guess, but like you go dig into a little deeper and like it was two or three bad outings that really turfed his era and some of the other stuff. But this guy throws strikes. He throws a lot of strikes. I think the one thing they're trying to impress upon him is that it's great that you have a sinker and you can use it all the time, but if you just use your, your change up and your slider just a little bit more, that sinker plays up even more than it already does. But they love the ground ball rate. They love how he attacks and gets ahead and throws strikes. I mean that's the one thing if you want to pitch in the Mariners bullpen, you better throw a lot of strikes unless you're Carlos Vargas and out of options. But like that's how you do that. And so like now you have leverage arms, Munoz, Bradley, Gabe Spire and Ferrer as your, your leverage back of the game guys. And then you have Bizardo as your pivot guy to get to them. And then, then the rest of the bullpen is kind of pieced together with Criswell and, and Vargas. And then my guess is Casey Legomina would be the, the last guy in the bullpen.
- [80:35]
Ben Lindbergh
One more position I wanted to ask about. We talked about the outfield shaping up to be pretty solid. Obviously Julio and Randy, but then in right they're banking on a bounce back from Victor Robles, who didn't play a lot last year and didn't play well when he did play. And that was coming off of just that extraordinary mid season post acquisition turnaround that he made for the Mariners the previous year and then he signed that extension. So what are they hoping for realistically out of him? And then I guess Luke Rayleigh would be another guy who sees some outfield time and would also be in line for a bounce back. They would hope. Cause those could guys combined were roughly replacement level for the Mariners last year.
- [81:19]
Ryan Divish
I think they're gonna, they're gonna platoon those guys in right field. They'll move Don Kenzo to the, the DH along with Rob Ref Snider. And Ref Snider can go be out in the outfield some too. But I think they're going to try and use those guys in a platoon. I think they felt like, I think they, they understood, you know, Robos pushed to get back because they thought he was done for the season. You know, it was such a gruesome injury on that catch and how it happened. They really didn't think, think he would be back last year and you know, that he got back was a bonus. But he, you could tell like the amount of time missed, he just didn't look like the same player. And Rayleigh pretty much, you know, he suffered the oblique strain and then, you know, had back issues and all this stuff. He pretty much just played through the oblique strain all year. It never really went away and it led to issues with the back and he just tried to play through it because they were good, you know, he wanted to contribute and the guy who hit 25 homer the year before. So I think they feel like if by platooning them you put them in your best position to have success. You know, you have Kenzone who can go out there if needed. You have Ref Snider. You have enough versatility that like if one of those guys is scuffling, you don't have to play him, you know, at all times. I think that will be better for them in the long run. You know, like really, you don't want to bat him against lefties and Victor is just Victor, but defensively, you know, he helps helps you so they, they have those options there. I mean like you don't want to really see Kenzone playing right field a ton. Rayleigh and Robles are better. I think you'll get more than replacement level production from those guys in a platoon versus you know, what we saw last year.
- [82:51]
Meg Riley
A lot of the Mariners core Players are sort of under contract for at least another year. They do have some guys who are free agents after the conclusion of the season. Crawford, Russ Snyder, Andrew Kinsman, Randy. But I'm curious, you know, of their group that's set to be around longer. Has there been any talk of extensions, particularly with the guys in the rotation? Do you think that these Gilbert or Kirby might be put under contract for longer than just another year or two?
- [83:21]
Ryan Divish
Yeah, I know they've. When Logan in his first few years, they had broached the idea of an extension. You know, it was more of those, the lower ones like we saw them give to Evan Whites and those guys, guys that, you know, you're a year into the big leagues. You're not even into the big leagues. We're trying to get you cheap and buy out some of those arbitration years because they knew he was going to be a Super 2. I haven't heard, you know, Logan said he's open to it, but at the same time he also saw max free get 210 million. And how much Dylan's. How much did Dylan Cease get this year? You know, it's like, huh. So I think he, they have a better chance of extending him than Kirby. But you know, I think part of it is Logan's relationship, relationship with Cal and the city and everything else. But, you know, they're also getting to the point where they have to, they have to think about that because what is he third year arbitration eligible this year? She's got one more after that. I mean, you know, most teams when you go into that last year and your walk year, they don't really hang on to you. But Logan is such a big part of the clubhouse and big part of their pitching, you know, philosophy. And here's the guy that does all these things, right? I don't know. I mean like, and, and if you're the Mariner is like, how do you approach that? Like, what is Logan now, 26, 27?
- [84:28]
Meg Riley
28.
- [84:29]
Ryan Divish
28. So like, do you give them six years? I mean, like.
- [84:33]
Meg Riley
Right.
- [84:33]
Ryan Divish
I don't, I don't ever see them giving a contract more than 6 years unless your name is Julio. I mean, even Cal only got a six year deal. So it's like, would they do that? I mean, I, that is their one philosophy is like they want to. They would rather extend guys they know than go out and spend on guys, you know, on the free age agent market. So I would think that that's being discussed. But you know, I'm sure the flexer injury with Logan last year maybe put some breaks on that and has them reevaluating. But yeah, that's. That's going to be interesting here after this season and what they go into next year in his final year, what they do. Because honestly, like, if. If you don't get him signed and you just have him, do you let him leave or do you. Maybe they do the qualifying offer. I don't know. It's going to be really weird. And I don't think they want to get into a point where they have to make those decisions. They'd prefer to maybe, you know, get an extension done and see if they can keep him around.
- [85:26]
Meg Riley
By many measures, you would call Dan Wilson's first season as. As manager wildly successful. Hard to take issue with the direction the team went. Could maybe take issue with a couple of the pitching decisions in the final game of their season. We don't have to relitigate the presence of Pizzardo in that moment. But I am curious, sort of what conversations Wilson has had publicly about his managerial philosophy and if there are things that he took away from his first year that he is hoping to change or improve upon in year two.
- [86:01]
Ryan Divish
Yeah, that's.
- [86:02]
Meg Riley
That was a polite way of putting that. Right.
- [86:04]
Ryan Divish
Yeah, I know somebody's still got some issues here. It did feel like at times last year, not just in the postseason, but during the season, like maybe the game sped up on Dan a little bit and some opportunities. I think maybe his biggest flaw isn't that he doesn't understand, you know, the dynamics of the situation or numbers of the situation. It's that he trusts his players a little bit too much, that they're always going to come through and deliver. And Bizardo earned a lot of trust last year with how good he was. But I think that's the biggest thing. I don't think. It's not that he doesn't understand the numbers of it all. All. I think it's the belief that, no, we don't need to do that. This guy can do this for us. He can handle it, you know, and. And that's not a bad way to be. And I think that's a big reason for their success in a lot of ways, is that Dan loosened the reins a little bit and allowed those guys to kind of be themselves even more. I think with Scott Service, he. He always was kind of the guy still had his fingers on the. The pulse and still had it, a kind of a big leadership quotient. And, you know, when that team was getting older and starting to assume Roles of their own. You know, you needed to pull it back. And I don't think that was easy for Scott, but Dan came in and just said, no, this is your, your clubhouse. You got to run it, you know, and gave a lot of power to Cal and all these other guys, and I think that was his biggest. That's what made them successful from his managing standpoint and his responsibilities. But the game stuff, yeah, it could be a little clip cleaner. I, like I said, I do think it's from trust more than it's not understanding situations, but I, I would expect like you might see more leaning towards the numbers and the situational numbers thing is like, Scott was very good about explaining his philosophy and like why he would do stuff. And I remember telling him one time too, like, hey, post game, I'm going to ask you about these relief sometimes your reliever usage and stuff like that. But we, I know we can't get like super detailed, so know that I'll probably ask the next day as well, you know, and, and he always, I think, understood like the more he explained what happened, it was it, you know, and why he did it, it helped fans understand. But Dan doesn't. Hasn't really offered that up, you know, that much. Just it's like we like him there, he's been good there, you know, we trust him there. But is that going to change when it bites. Bites you in the ass, so to speak? I think it does. I think everybody learns eventually. And you know, there are also some different voices in, in his dugout now besides, you know, with some changes to the coaching staff that could, that could lead to different changes too, and how they do stuff on their game management and strategy.
- [88:38]
Ben Lindbergh
All right, well, take us through what would constitute success for the Mariners. The sequel to a quite successful, successful 2025.
- [88:47]
Ryan Divish
Yeah, somebody who is just saying like, they go, when are you going on effectively wild? Because you gotta. What constitutes a success for the Mariners? I think, I think getting to the World Series is the success that, that they, that's what they expect. I mean, I, I look at him and I think they're probably the most complete team in the American League. Now. That can change with injuries and such, but I look at them, I, I expect them to win the, the division. It's so weird saying this now and makes probably just like Meg's like knocking on wood and got like rabbit's foot.
- [89:18]
Meg Riley
It's a weird, It's a weird world we're living in, man.
- [89:22]
Ryan Divish
But like you, you look at them and I don't see the reason why they wouldn't win the division. They're significantly better from a talent standpoint than anybody else in their division. And then I look at them, and, like, I look around the American League, they're. They're really good, and they should be there at the end. End. I think they address some of their needs, you know, you know, filled holes while making maybe the overall product a little bit better and a little more consistent with the guys they brought in. And, yeah, that's. For me, that's getting to the World Series for the first time in the franchise's career. That would be what I consider success. Success for the Mariners. It's so weird saying that.
- [90:00]
Ben Lindbergh
It sounds so uncomfortable.
- [90:02]
Meg Riley
I know.
- [90:05]
Ryan Divish
But then again, I'm the guy who said that Sean Figgins would be a good fit with the Mariners once, so what do I know?
- [90:10]
Meg Riley
We all got got by that one.
- [90:12]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. So you can follow Ryan's coverage at the Seattle Times, as always, the written kind of coverage. But you're also a podcaster now, I notice you have. You have. Well, you. You had a podcast that was, what, briefly active last year, and then no more. Not a podcast.
- [90:31]
Ryan Divish
I took a sabbatical last year. Yeah, you were.
- [90:33]
Ben Lindbergh
You were coaching an American Legion team for a little.
- [90:36]
Ryan Divish
Yeah, I was coaching baseball, and so maybe I shouldn't probably question managerial decisions based on my coaching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're looking to do it again. Adam Jude and I will do it. He's doing some negotiations, so we get somebody else to help produce it, because I'm not. I had to do it, and I'm not very good at it, and I have no patience for it. So we're looking to kind of. Kind of farm that out and. And do it that way. So I'm letting him do that because we also have to negotiate with our bosses on that, and they like him a lot better than they like me.
- [91:10]
Ben Lindbergh
Okay. Well, it was called Extra Innings, a Seattle Times baseball podcast. Maybe it will be again. The description said nobody loves extra innings more than Mariners beat writer Ryan Divish. Is that. Is that true? Are you the biggest Extra Innings fan? You hate the zombie runner because you just want to stay at the park longer?
- [91:27]
Ryan Divish
Yeah, that's. It's right up there with a colonoscopy and a root canal for me.
- [91:33]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, you know, I've talked about colonoscopies. Not that bad. They get a bad rap. They really do. I just. I got to stick up for colonoscopies.
- [91:40]
Ryan Divish
You can't.
- [91:41]
Meg Riley
You got to keep this stuff in the family. You can't be burdening our guests with this.
- [91:45]
Ben Lindbergh
It's a psa Public health. Don't, don't be afraid of colonoscopies. It's, it's a good time or at least not a bad that time. But yeah, I like extra innings too. I wish we got more of them and that they were not marred by the zombie runner. How was your seatical? Your seatical. That's not a word. How was your sabatical? You went to Montana and you were coaching an American Legion team for a few months.
- [92:10]
Ryan Divish
Yeah, I coached the American Legion team I played for in my hometown and you know, the field is a block and a half from my parents house. House, so. And I actually coached that team when I was in college playing. And then, you know, for the summers I would come home and help coach. I call him my stepson, but my fiance's son was on the team. He was our best player. And it was the best summer of my life, like in terms of being in Montana experience summer, like getting to coach and drive around and like, you know, we're driving all over Montana and Alberta playing baseball. Well. And I learned lots of things like what crash out means and aura and like literally that Saturday night, Saturday Night Live skit where they have the, the junior high podcasters talking that, that, that was our team bus. Like I even said, I, I, I was going to text the Mariners and ask for an interpreter for teenage speak. But no, it was, it was so much fun. And you know, the only thing was it didn't end with us winning the state title, but it was, it was, I wouldn't change it. You know, I not going to write a book on it like Larry Stone wanted me to, but it was, I would. I honestly, I wanted to do it again for my stepson senior year, my last season, but with the, with Seattle hosting the World Cup, Tim Booth can't, you know, help me out. And really it was, it'd be unfair to ask Adam Jude and Tim Booth and Bob Kandota to do that again. Like they were, they really, they really stepped up because they knew it's something I want to do and frankly they thought it was something I needed to do because I was getting more angry by the day day covering the team. So it really worked out and you know, I came back and got to cover them in August through the postseason. So it was pretty fun.
- [93:51]
Ben Lindbergh
Sounds nice. And now you have some managerial experience under your belt. All right, well, thanks as always, Ryan. Good to talk to you.
- [93:58]
Ryan Divish
All right, thanks guys.
- [94:00]
Ben Lindbergh
Okay, we talked M's. Now the other M's. Well, one of the other M's. The M and M's. From the sailors on the surface of the sea to the fish below. The Miami Marlins. Coming up next with Christina Dinico. Does baseball look the same to you as it does to me? When we look at baseball, how much do we see? Well, the curveballs bend and home runs fly more to the game than meets the eye. To get the stats compiled and the stories filed, fans on the Internet might, might get riled, but we can break it down on effectively.
- [94:41]
Christina DiNicola
Wild.
- [94:43]
Ben Lindbergh
All right, let's talk about the Miami Marlins. We are joined this time by Christina DiNicola, who covers the Marlins for MLB.com welcome, Christina.
- [94:53]
Christina DiNicola
Oh, thank you for having me. How are you guys?
- [94:55]
Ben Lindbergh
We're doing all right. And the Marlins were doing more than all right at the end of last season. They finished quite strong. They were a winning team over the final four months or so of the season. You wouldn't really call them a contender. I guess they were a quasi contender there at the end. They were four games out of the wild card race and they weren't actually eliminated from postseason contention mathematically until what, the 25th, I think, of September. So you could see that as, okay, we were close. We can build on that. What was their thinking heading into this offseason about their proximity to true contention? Because I guess you could say they were maybe playing a little over their heads last year. I think they were. They were outscored, you know, by a fair margin. So I think they were seven games over their Pythag record, five games over their base runs record. And they did sign a few free agents this off season. But maybe the most notable transactions were trading away a couple of established starters. So what were they thinking in terms of their timeline?
- [95:55]
Christina DiNicola
Yeah, I guess to cover a couple of those things you mentioned. I guess one, the way that they competed, it made them feel that they are ahead of schedule by having that 17 win improvement. I will say that, you know, with the run differential, they had probably a handful of games where Javier Sonoha had to pitch because it was lopsided. And when they won, they're relatively close games because they're one of those teams, right, who pitches well but doesn't necessarily score a lot of runs. So that can skew run differential. So because they feel that they are ahead of schedule, they, you know, made a few in terms of them, relatively speaking, noteworthy signings first with Pete Fairbank shoring up the back end of the bullpen a proven reliever with postseason experience. They're trying out Christopher Morrell as kind of a reclamation project at first base for the first time. And they signed Chris Paddock to round out the rotation and give, you know, a lot of young arms with not many innings under them. A guy who is a veteran and who has been around a bit, although, you know, at the end of last season had moved over to the bullpen with the Tigers. At this point, you know, especially nationally speaking, I guess people don't see them as a true contender, but here they think they have a chance, especially if they play the way they did. I think it was from, like June 13th and on through the rest of season. They were actually one of the better teams in baseball. But of course, they don't have the big names that the other teams in the division do, so they'll kind of always kind of be counted out. It's the same way that, you know, the Tampa Ray Rays or the Cleveland Guardians are, or even the Milwaukee Brewers.
- [97:28]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, I guess, yes, the Marlins track record of recent contention, not quite up there with those teams, but they will hope to get there. So take us through the two trades. Obviously, starting pitching has been a strength for the Marwins, and they still felt like they had enough of a surplus to subtract Edward Cabrera and Ryan Weathers. And neither of those guys was quite up to free agency yet. There's a little team control left there. And so I suppose I see the vision here and you can take us through what they got back and what they were trying to accomplish. But then again, I'm sure there are a lot of Marlins fans who have seen year after year that guys get traded to other teams and they blossom there or they star there. And the Marlins are just kind of perennially rebuilding or trying to build a quote, unquote, sustainable winner or whatever it is. And you can kind of end up on a treadmill there, I guess, where you're constantly trading with an eye to toward some season X number of years down the road.
- [98:27]
Christina DiNicola
Well, yeah, you mentioned the sustainable winner, and that's a term or a phrase, I guess you'd say that president of baseball operations Peter Bennix uses a lot, you know, coming over from the race. So, you know, when I was alluding to before, it's like the Marlins pretty much envision themselves. Maybe they can be like the annual version of the Rays if they can achieve that sustainable success. But with the Edward Cabrera trade, honestly, if you ask Marlon fans, fans or just maybe even the local market you know, he finally broke out, right? This is what people were hoping or expecting when he was a top 100 prospect years ago, you know, when he was a, you know, a big international signing. But like, injuries have kept him from achieving that kind of potential. And this past year he finally, you know, got there, you know, 96 mile per hour changeup. It doesn't happen often, but he also had a couple of injury scares during the season, so. So you know what the Marlins did? They flipped him when his stock was at its highest and it got back. The main issue was Owen Casey, who probably didn't have much of an opportunity he was going to have in Chicago, where they're trying to compete, especially now. So Owen Casey, who right now is at the World Baseball Classic with Canada, could very well win a starting outfield job for the Marlins because he doesn't really have much left to prove at aaa. So that was the big get there with the Ryan Weathers trade. As I wrote leading up to it, I was actually in India when he got traded, but he, you know, the top two prospects in the system for the Marlins are Thomas White and Robbie Snelling. They're both lefty pitchers. I think Weathers is a very good pitcher, but maybe the Marlins consider, you know, more upside for the two younger guys not really the injury history yet that Weathers unfortunately has had off and on kind of fluke stuff. Honestly, there was one time he got hit, I think it was in the back of the head by Nick Forte's throw from home to second in between innings, you know, right before they start up an inning when they throw it down to second. Another time he was going to cover home when Christian Yelich was stealing and he got, I think, a weird, like, hairline fracture or something like that on his finger that kept him out. So he hadn't been able to stay healthy. And, you know, as you're seeing, I guess, early, early on in spring for the Yankees, his Velo is up again big time. And that's what we saw last spring before he got hurt at Marlin's camp. And in return for that, they got a couple of guys that are actually at big league camp. Dylan Lewis. Dylan Yaso is here. I believe there's two other names, but it's just, honestly, it's flipping and getting, you know, more depth in the farm system, which, you know, our MLB pipeline rankings came out earlier this week, and the system's deeper than it's been in a while. You know, sometimes it can be top heavy. There's five top 100 guys. But then there's also some depth there that, you know, they'd been missing over the years.
- [101:12]
Meg Riley
You mentioned Casey and you know, if Marlin's fans are looking for a point of optimism, I think they can find it in that outfield. We can talk about Casey specifically in a second. But I'm curious, you know, as you think of the season ahead for both Jacob Marcy and Kyle Stowers, I'm curious, curious, what percentage of each of those guys do you expect in 2026 relative to how they performed in 2025? Stowers really broke out. You know, we talk about Marlin's prospects who leave and do better elsewhere. He really blossomed after coming over from Baltimore and Marcy was scorching hot, albeit in a very limited sample. So what are your expectations for those guys and how do they slot into the mix for Miami?
- [101:58]
Christina DiNicola
Yeah, exactly. I mean, Marcy, 55 games, August 1st through the end of the season, he admitted toward the end, like the very end, you know, he's getting a bit tired, not used to playing that deep into a season. But right off the bat he showed great play discipline, you know, swinging at strikes, probably more extra base hits and power than they were expecting. Very much like a football I'll do anything to win mentality that the Marlins love. But yeah, 55 games is of extremely small sample size. So we'll see what happens in a full season. Right. 162 games is a big difference. And with Kyle Stowers, the interesting thing is before his oblique injury in August that ended up he had a setback and then didn't return. He was probably what, top 10 hitter in baseball at the time. Like he was up there in all sorts of categories with, you know, the names that are household around the league. But his first 117 games split between the Orioles and the Marlins, you know, were forgettable. Probably part of the reason why, you know, the Orioles obviously have at the time all those different prospects or guys are coming to the big leagues and they kind of moved on from Stowers when the Trevor Rodgers deal happened. And last spring training Stowers did not do very well at all and people wondered if he would even make the team. And then for him to go and have 117 games, that there's that number again. So it's the same amount of him being bad and then having 117 games of being very, very good.
- [103:21]
Ben Lindbergh
Right.
- [103:22]
Christina DiNicola
All Star, was a Gold Glove finalist, had multiple walk off winners. So it's like which version of stars is it? In my opinion, it'll probably be somewhere in between. Maybe not to the level that he was last year and not to how bad he had been, just as at least logically. That's what I see. But you never know. But it's also tricky because right now he's dealing with a very minor hamstring strain. So he hasn't been in a spring training game for about a week and they're kind of, you know, easing him back in because it's this time of year that you don't need to, you know, be dumb and rush him.
- [103:57]
Ben Lindbergh
The other guy they got from the Orioles in the Trevor Rogers trade, Connor Norby did not have as impressive a debut with the Marlins. What are the hopes for him in his second year with the team?
- [104:09]
Christina DiNicola
So that'll be one of the interesting, you know, competitions that are second full
- [104:13]
Ben Lindbergh
season, I should say. Yeah.
- [104:14]
Christina DiNicola
Yes of competition is at third base between the right handed hitting Connor Norby and the left handed hitting grand Pauly who was part of one of the Padres trades that the Marlins had. Hard to keep track of which there's. I think there's been three in the last couple years. But Connor actually when he got called up to the Marlins after that Rogers trade in 24, first, first of all they sent him to AAA. I think he was at the big league level with the Orioles at the time, but they wanted to convert him to third base where he had not played because you know, Xavier Edwards was at second, you know, and he's very much firmly planted there, especially once he and Otto switch from short to second and made a much better defensive middle infield. But so Norby had a nice debut with them at the end of 24, but once again, small sample size. And then last year was bit by the injury bug. He got hurt two days before literally his last spring training game I believe sustained an oblique and so that kind of set in motion how his, his season go. Three injured list stints when he was around, he just couldn't find a swing. He, he's admitted like, you know, he's very much at his best when he goes right center. He has that kind of pop. And at Lone Depot park that's pretty impressive because for a right handed hitter, you know, it's not easy to get go out that way but they were trying to have him, I guess swing, trying to pull it a bit and that's just not his game. So he was tinkering all season, didn't have a swing, couldn't figure things out. So he very much, though, needs to kind of correct things and prove, you know, that he can be an everyday player for this team. Because as of now, like Graham, Pauly put up really good numbers defensively at third base last year when he was there. And after the All Star break when he kind of played a bit more consistently, he started figuring out a bit with the bat. But if both are healthy, like, and nobody kind of sets themselves apart, maybe it's a platoon. But Paulie can also bounce around at first. He saw some time there. He can play second. Norby would be huge if he can produce for the Marlins because they have a lot of lefty batters. Whether it's Stowers, Marcy Casey got Paulie. As I mentioned, X Hicks is a switch hitter. Morrell's a righty. Gus behind the plate is a righty. But Liam Hicks, the backup catcher, is a lefty one. Joe Mack eventually comes up. He's a lefty. So having some righty pop would be big for the team, especially when they're facing lefty starters.
- [106:32]
Meg Riley
I wanted to ask about the catching position, both as it's currently constituted and then as it might evolve going forward, because this podcast has taken a sort of pro framing stance. We also are pro catchers calling their own games. So we're a little confused by the, the Marlins approach of wanting to call games from the dugout. But what do you see as the present and future of that position and how are they thinking about the possibility of having games called from the dugout when they have someone like Joe Mack who, you know, a big part of his appeal as a prospect and his value as a pro prospect is that he's a plus defensive catcher. So tell us about that.
- [107:12]
Christina DiNicola
Yes. So the pitch calling they did last year in the minor league. So Joe Mack is very familiar with it. And the person calling the pitches was Rob Marcelo, the pitching coach for AAA Jacksonville, who is now the assistant pitching coach for the Marlins and will be having that duty of calling pitches. The idea behind it is to kind of give the catchers one less thing to, to worry about. You know, they're still game planning. They're still having the pre game meetings with the pitching coaches, you know, the pitcher, the other catchers. And then, you know, the day after, I guess, kind of reviewing what happened, like why was this pitcher this and that. I remember I was pretty skeptical when they announced it. We were in Arlington during that last road trip. But then I thought about it a bit, you know, how much different, I guess, is it then in football where the coach calls every play, right? And then the offense or the defense, you know, kind of tries to execute it. And whether they do or not is, you know, up to the execution. Right? But for the Marlins, the catching situation is interesting because Augustine, Ramirez, you know, they got him in the Jazz Chisholm junior trade and from the beginning they said they view him as a catcher. So, you know, by saying that you gotta like see it through. And so he was one of the worst defensive catchers last year. The, you know, any metric or even standards stats will tell you that. They keep on saying he put a lot of work in over the off season in the doctor, but, you know, it's not like one of those things where Joe Mac's gonna be the opening day catcher. They're gonna give Augustine a chance to kind of prove that he's improved over like the first month or so. And I guess if he doesn't, that could be, you know, assuming Joe Mack is producing at aaa, then Joe Mack time and, and in that situation, maybe Gus moves to like the backup role of being behind the dish as long as he's like adequate enough for a couple times a week. Because then in that sense though, then Liam Hicks, who had a pretty respectable rookie season as a Rule 5 guy who'd never played above double A, he could kind of bounce around DH or first, or maybe he's the odd man out because both he and, you know, Joe Mack are lefty bats. But you know, you're not going to call up Joe Mac Mack to ride the bench. Like he would have to play almost like a consistent right. Like he's. And he's that much of a difference maker behind the dish with his, you know, arm and whatnot. We saw it, I guess early in the week, the days kind of are all of a blur. He had a back pick to get out of an inning at a spring training game and it's just like, wow, you know, like, hadn't seen it as much in person because I'm so busy with the Marlin stuff that I don't get to watch, you know, as much minor league games. But, you know, you hear so much about it, right? Two years ago he was the minor league Gold Glove winner at catcher and that's very much like a difference maker. The Marlins pitchers aren't very good at holding runners, which is part of why, you know, the caught stealing was so bad for both Augustine and Liam last year. You know, though, they're making a more concerted effort. Like you see it in the backfields a lot like 10 minutes ago, maybe 20 minutes ago at this point, Yuri Perez was cheering with the whole group that during a sim game because he picked off a runner because they've made it such a big deal. He and Sandy are very much not good at holding runners. So, yeah, the catcher situation, you know, long run, it's, you know, seems like Joe Mack. But then also, what do you do with Gus if he doesn't prove himself to be, I guess, reliable enough behind the dish, like they haven't played him at first base or practically, like he's just solely been a catcher and like, you have to be pretty darn good hitting to be just a solely dh, because then it also, you know, keeps them from moving, you know, regulars around and giving them a breather in terms of, like, okay, this is your day off from the field, but we still want you in the lineup. So that's definitely going to be one of the main storylines, especially early in the season.
- [110:55]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, with the pitch calling. I get it. I think there's probably an edge to be gleaned there. I just don't like it personally, kind of on a philosophical level, and so I sort of resent the Marlin for introducing it to mlb. And now it maybe seems to be spreading. The Marlins former pitching coach is with the Rockies now and they're thinking of doing it. And then the Giants have a college coach who's also thinking of doing it. So do you know what the rationale was in terms of. Was it just. Well, we think we'll. We'll take a little load off the catchers. It makes some sense. Or do you think or know that they quantified some edge? Are they able to disagree? Determine. Here's how this helped us last year. We think it will add X wins or whatever. Is it sort of quantitatively driven, do you think? And then was there any pushback whatsoever when they implemented this last year? I imagine there might be on some teams with more veteran guys and. And players who haven't just come up in a system like this, but maybe the Marwins were kind of the ideal place to introduce it with a minimum of resistance.
- [112:00]
Christina DiNicola
Yeah, you kind of alluded to it. So, you know, with such a young and inexperienced roster, this is honestly the perfect place, Right. To experiment with it alone. Leishman, who is now the Rockies pitching coach, was the assistant pitching coach for the Marlins last year and was the one calling it during that last week. And I remember that was one of the questions I asked. And, you know, there weren't many veteran pitchers, but you know, the big one is Sandy Alcantara, right. How will he respond to it? But he's very much a pitcher that doesn't want to think. Not that he doesn't want to think too much about it, but he had also developed a really good rapport with Alone. They were catching partners during the season, so that helped in talking to John King, Pete Fairbanks and Chris Paddock, all who signed as free agents this offseason. That was one of the things I was curious about, right? Like, is that going to make certain pitchers not want to come to the Marlins? Obviously it depends also on how much, you know, the, you know, salary, annual salary. Right. There's certain tiers of free agents. At least these three were open to it. Obviously, Fairbanks, with the raise, is used to experimentation and whatnot that they do over there. Paddock and King are guys that are trying to write their careers a bit and see this as a way that maybe it's. That can happen. The Marlins, very much, right, are analytical now. They're looking into numbers, this and that. But I remember having a conversation that day with Bendix about the idea of the pitch calling, and it's almost like the chicken, the egg, right? Like maybe it's the right pitch that was called, but it's not the execution. So I guess you take with a grain of salt maybe some of the numbers it was more honestly, I think because it's a young roster particular to. One of the things I don't know if we can perfectly quantify it is game calling by a catcher, right. And what kind of impact that actually has, has, you know, whether it's like a Salvador Perez or J.T. ruto. And with having such young catchers, as we mentioned, like Gus and Liam Hicks were both rookies last year. Joe Max, a prospect, you know, the pitch calling comes with experience. So it also goes into the idea that those pregame and those post game or the day after sessions they have, they. They're still learning, right? Like you're learning swings and maybe why this was particularly this is called. So it's not like they're gonna completely like lose that skill or learning that skill. So it'll definitely be one of those things where you're gonna have to have a large enough sample size and probably over a couple years to see if it actually has an impact. But also, is it just because those pitchers were good or not good or, you know, the catchers were framing or, you know, now we got, I guess, the challenges too. So there's, there's so many variables. I Think there was. Mainly, though, because of the young roster and trying to maybe see this as an edge that they can get over other teams.
- [114:40]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. I could imagine pitchers not caring that much because their pitches are going to be called for them by someone usually. So maybe they don't care who that someone is.
- [114:48]
Christina DiNicola
Well, and that's what they said. Yeah. Because like, whether it's the catcher or the pitching coach, assistant pitching coach, like somebody was calling it. Unless it's like, I guess, Scherzer. I don't know which veteran guys around the league call their own pitches every so often. Like, it's not like there is someone else usually calling it. It's just they're putting the responsibility on the coach. And I think. I don't remember if it was Paddock or Fairbanks joking last week. To us, it's like, oh, yeah, we told Rob Marello, who's the assistant pitching coach who's calling pitches. Like it's. You get to do mlb, the show, like in person, you know, like you're calling the pitches. But once again, it goes back to the execution too. Right. At the end of the day, it. It's if the pitcher can actually execute the pitch. Pitch.
- [115:26]
Ben Lindbergh
Right. Yeah. So I could imagine catchers balking at it more. Not. Not actually balking. Catchers Bing is a thing. But. But.
- [115:33]
Christina DiNicola
And they can act and they can still like shake off a pitch. Like, it's not like this is what you have to do. Like, they do have the freedom to do that. And there's still, like I said, discussions. Whether it works or doesn't, they're going to have those talks. It's not like it's completely like, no, you can't do this. Like, they can.
- [115:49]
Ben Lindbergh
And if you have rookie catchers who are just trying to get established and also they've come up in a situation system where this is the way it's been done, then it does seem like the ideal place to introduce it. So I guess credit to the Marlins for sort of. If they really think there's an edge to be gained there, then they will derive the first mover advantage from just having this perfect place to do it. I just. For reasons that I've ranted about previously and won't rehash here, I hope that it doesn't spread and that this isn't patient zero, but we'll see. I guess the Marlins hope that it's a success and that other team. Teams do want to copy it.
- [116:22]
Meg Riley
We've talked a good bit about Joe Mack, but I'm curious. You know, this is a young team and this is a young team that I think is still trying to see what it has. So if, if there is underperformance or injury at the big league level, are there other guys sort of floating around the high miners on the position player side who you think might get some big league run this year?
- [116:41]
Christina DiNicola
Yeah, that's what interesting. Trying to think of how the roster might play out, you know, to start with like opening day, it seems like it's the usual. Not usual suspects, but kind of 13 positions that are kind of locked in. But then who would be next? One interesting development over the this week is that Dax Fulton, who we kind of forget a bit about because you got Thomas White and Robbie Snelling. As I mentioned before, Dax last year came back from his second Tommy John surgery is he's on the 40 man roster. They protected him. He's always been a starter. But they hinted at the idea that maybe like in order to make the big leagues or to like help the team, he could at some point maybe be like a reliever of like a couple of innings. And that's something interesting that was floated around earlier this week. Relievers, there's Josh White, William Kempner who were protected during the Rule 5 in December. They are here at Bigley camp obviously and they've looked pretty good.
- [117:42]
Meg Riley
Good.
- [117:43]
Christina DiNicola
They the Marlins have actually an interesting relief core like bullpen options. Those are guys in terms of position players. Maximo Acosta doesn't really have anywhere to play right now because Otto Lopez is going to be the everyday shortstop and Xavier Edwards is the everyday second baseman. And then as we mentioned before, Norby and Paulie at third. But Maximo, he looks different. He's definitely put on some muscle. Muscle and weight. He had a bit of a stint with the team last year and it was kind of almost all or nothing. He had quite a few home runs or extra base hits, provides solid defense. So he's one of those. If one of those guys got hurt, he'd be first up because Sonoha is the Gold Glove winning utility player who kind of be everywhere but Maximo Acosta would probably be the first man up type of thing and then a bunch of, you know, starting options. If pitchers were to go down, they according to acquired Bradley Blaylock I believe they claimed off waivers from the Rockies. They're kind of trying to help him out because the poor guy right at Coors Field we see what it does to pitchers. So he's kind of one of those reclamation projects. You've got Ryan Gusto who was part of the Jesus Sanchez trade with the Astros, who could be maybe like a swing man type. Got Adam Mazur, who put on some weight this off season and has looked pretty sharp. His name has been brought up quite a few times by Clayton McCullough, the manager. The non roster guys I mentioned before, White, Snelling, there's just. They have, it's interesting they traded away, right? We mentioned Cabrera and Weathers, but they have different options. A lot of guys that are with AAA experience that, that honestly that rotation at AAA is going to be pretty impressive because assuming injuries don't happen leading up to opening day, you're looking at probably Sandy contra Yuri Perez, Max Meyer, Braxton Garrett and Chris Paddock as the five for the major league team. And then you got a bunch of guys who will probably have to start at aaa. The one that we'll have to keep an eye on is Jansen's junk. He rolled his ankle about a week and a half, two weeks ago. He's working his way back. He'll make his Grapefruit League debut on Saturday. Very much a swing man type, but they're also still building him up as a starter. That's another guy they're gonna have to make a decision on. So those are the names to kind of be on the lookout for. But like I said this spring we've seen what's happened to the Braves and other teams. Just like injuries happen, stuff that you out of your control happens and then suddenly you have this random dude that's on the team.
- [120:07]
Ben Lindbergh
So speaking of Sandy, the upset last season was that he did not get traded and still has not been traded. That'll happen, I guess, when you have a seven plus ERA at the All Star break. But thereafter, after he did pitch more or less like the old Sandy down the stretch, his last dozen starts, he had a 3.13 ERA, 3.75 FIP. So if he starts the season the way he ended last season, then is it likely, is it certain that he will be the next to go? Cause this is the last year of his contract. But there's a team option for 2027 for about 21 million.
- [120:45]
Christina DiNicola
I think it depends on where the team is right in the standings because in their, you know, dream world they'll still be in it and they'll try to add and keep Sandy. But yeah, I mean, he would be logically one of those guys at the deadline if they're not within striking distance that they could trade. He added a sweeper that he's trying out. He's actually pitching today in between the World Baseball Classic stuff happening. But he. A big thing with him obviously coming back from Tommy John surgery and we saw with a few guys is like, you know, they don't get their location back right off the bat. It takes some time. And then not just that, but they were tinkering with his arsenal and adding pitches here and there rather than him just being like the sink or change up guy. And I think in my opinion, at least to the detriment of Sandy. So that could be a thing to monitor over the season if he, you know, kind of still relies on the sinker change up and then sporadically whatever other pitches he has because they very much believe philosophically on the team now, the organization, the 2K and like getting strikeouts and valuing that when Sandy very much is like a ground ball pitcher, very efficient, like he's going to give you however many innings because it's a low pitch count. So which version is Sandy will we get as well? Not just in terms of the pitches, but the type of outs he's getting. That's the big thing for me is, is he going to be the guy that gives you six or seven innings every time now or is he getting these high pitch counts? He's only in the fifth or slightly into the six inning.
- [122:19]
Meg Riley
Yuri Perez's ERA wasn't particularly sterling last season. His FIP was notably better. But I think it was encouraging to everyone to see his velocity intact after, after surgery. I'm curious sort of how, how he takes a step forward this year because he, he looked great. Like the body looked good. Last year it looked like he had put on good weight. That might help him sustain a full season load. But you know, he struck out fewer guys. He still walked a bunch of dudes. So how do they help Yuri sort of take that step forward and become the guy who we got a, a tantalizing and glimpse at in 2023.
- [122:57]
Christina DiNicola
Well, it's funny you mentioned the, that he put on some way because there, there was, I think before he had the Tommy John, I remember he was saying like, oh, I added on some weight and I asked how much? And he said five pounds. And we looked at him like, come on. But this time he actually put on, yeah, put on like it was like 10 to 15 or something. But. But so him also, right. Coming back from Tommy John surgery, you don't necessarily have the commander location like that you're used to. But he also though like he went through a stretch where, you know, pretty Good. And then he had, like, a couple of rough patches. I'm pretty sure he ended well in September. He was adding pitches, too. Like, the Arsenals were changing so much like Sandy, like mentor and mentee. Very much like, you don't see Sandy without Yuri and vice versa. They were playing with the pitches that he was using, so. So, yeah, we hear so much. He has the nickname Baby Goat down here, but now it's time to start pitching like one, right? Yeah, he's looked sharp this spring. He actually had a sim game just now. They wanted him in that sim game particular to practice with his pickoffs, as I mentioned earlier, and being able to handle the running game. But yeah, I mean, if he can get to, you know, his potential. I mean, Sandy and Yuri at a top of a rotation is not too shy. But yeah, now's the time to, you know, more than a year removed from rehabbing, we'll say, because he didn't come back until, what was it, June or July. But yeah, and he came back ahead of time, too. So I think the further away you get from Tommy John's surgery, hopefully more like the way, you know, the pitcher you are. I think Chris Paddock was even telling me that a couple days ago, just the same thing happened for him where it's like it was after that, you know, year, whatever, ever. And so even Braxton Garrett coming back from Tommy John surgery, the same, too. Although he, like, literally the same as Sandy. His spring training is kind of his rehab. That's the other thing with Sandy. Right. He didn't actually go on rehab assignments and games and proper, like, build up that way. It was more like, all right, you're doing that during spring training and now we're right off the bat, opening day against Paul Skin.
- [125:01]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, yeah. So you talked about this. And by the way, baby goat, that's capital G O A T for anyone who was like, what would pitching like a baby goat entail? No, like, greatest of all time. That's what we're going for here.
- [125:12]
Christina DiNicola
Both. Both, honestly.
- [125:13]
Meg Riley
Both?
- [125:14]
Christina DiNicola
Yeah.
- [125:16]
Ben Lindbergh
You talked about White and Snelling, the two top prospect pitchers who are on the verge of being big leaguers. But the, I guess the back of the rotation and mid rotation, it consists of guys who were once top pitching prospects themselves, but are coming off a season when they combined for, I think, 0.3. Baseball Reference. War talking about Max Meyer and Chris Paddock and Braxton Garrett, who you mentioned, who didn't pitch last year, of course, coming back from Tommy John. So what are they going to get out of those three. And how does that dictate the time frame in which we might see White and Snelling?
- [125:53]
Christina DiNicola
Well, exactly right. So Max Meyer got off to a really good start last year and then the hip I guess started bothering him. He had what a 14 strike out performance was like oh maybe this is the guy he is rather than everyone trying to already make him into a, you know, back end high leverage reliever. So yeah, what version of Max we're going to get because he hasn't been able to stay healthy since he's reached a big leagues. Whether it was Tommy John surgery, the hip, I think there might have been a shoulder or something in between. But three straight seasons I believe where he it's prematurely ended. Braxton Garrett.
- [126:27]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [126:27]
Christina DiNicola
What are we going to get and see from him? He had started to figure it out. Right. In 2023 he broke out. That was when the Marlins go place the Phillies in the playoffs and it's Lizardo and Braxton Garrett Games 1 and 2 because Yuri and Sandy were hurt. He threw a Maddox I believe in that 2024 season and then ended up he had shoulder trouble off and on. And then eventually that December had Tommy John and this is his return paddock as we mentioned, you know, he was with the Twins and he went right to the bullpen with Tigers had struggled. So that's where I guess the names I mentioned earlier that the AAA guys, guys that'll start there are going to play a huge factor because they know they're going to need more than five pitchers. You know, no team is able to just go through a season with five. Although I think what Seattle Mariners flirted with that a couple of years ago.
- [127:11]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, Cardinals came close last year. For better or worse.
- [127:14]
Christina DiNicola
Right, Exactly. But so White is definitely not at the same stage of his career career as Snelling. Snelling, you know, is the reigning organization pitcher of the year spent almost his whole season at aaa did a very good job. He has been pitching in these great free league games. He was in the opener today is his third appearance. They're very much getting a better look at him. So he would be one of those. He's not. Right. He's not on the 40 man roster so there would have to be a corresponding move. But he's, he's definitely close to than White who is right now dealing with an oblique strain. So his spring training is done. He was reassigned to minor league camp then. I also think those names I mentioned before, Blalock, Mazer, Gusto, if you're crying Those guys, they're not the sexy names like White and Stelling, but they would be more likely especially if it's not a long injury for a certain pitcher or whatnot that would be up first. But for Snelling in particular, particular it's not if. It's more just when he'll get his call up. And both of those guys project to make their debuts at some point this season.
- [128:19]
Meg Riley
Mentioned some of the names in the bullpen but maybe we can talk more about this group. So obviously they brought in Pete Fairbanks. I imagine he'll be serving as the closer. John King as you mentioned. But talk to us about sort of this mix. How are they lining guys up ahead of Fairbanks and what are your expectations of Jansen? Junk. I know that he's not maybe the most interesting name on this list but I remain fascinated by him because I'm kind of confused by his season and how he can have such a split between his his ERA and his fit. But talk to us about the group as a whole.
- [128:51]
Christina DiNicola
Pete Fairbanks will be the Marlins very much like they did last year. They who who finishes the game right. Not necessarily the save. So if the big situation comes in that eighth inning that's when Fairbanks is probably going to be the there they have Calvin F and Anthony Bender who have saved games as setup men options. You've got a multi inning guy like Lake Bacher, Tyler Phillips that they're trying to kind of build him out to maybe three or four innings if need be. He saved a few games after he would slap his face that people thought that name was familiar. That's who that is, John King. They brought in a lefty arm. Cade Gibson was very solid as a rookie last year. Another lefty safety arm, Andrew Nardi is trying to make his way back. He had poor guy just back trouble all of last season. Couldn't make it into to be healthy enough. Like he even had like epidural shots and everything and it didn't work. Knock on wood for him. He is feeling good on that front. He did have a weird blood blister from like a fluke accident in the training room that set him back a bit. But he, he's been able to kind of regularly get on the back backfields and do whether it's live batting practice or sim games so that's encouraging. But he won't start the season with the big league club. He will need like more time to like rehab. But those are some of the big names I had mentioned. Some of those rule five guys that they protected but The Marlins feel pretty confident. And then another wild card is Michael Peterson who has had some really nasty stuff and like they're giving him a better look this spring. He was going to go compete with Great Britain in the World Baseball Classic and he's instead stuck around with Camp, who can be utilized as a righty option in the bullpen multi inning, kind of like Tyler Phillips, but maybe not built up as much as for Jansen junk. Yeah, he, his splits were kind of drastic. Like he had a few pretty good starts actually. But like he's definitely better suited for like a relief role multi inning like swing man type. But he is behind a few of those guys that I mentioned because you had rolled his ankle on a fluke thing as well. It's like all these baseball players and their injuries, right? The bullpen, it's going to be very important for the Marlins because they play so many close games and that could kind of decide, you know, whether they are a contender or not.
- [131:02]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, it was interesting. We talked about the Marlins playing a bit above their run differential last year and the bullpen was probably part of that because by Fan Graphs War it was the 26th best bullpen in baseball down between the Braves and the Angels losing teams. But by win it was the fifth best bullpen in baseball between the Blue Jays and the Mariners. So when they needed to get good innings, it seemed like they did. Not sure you can count on that repeating itself, but it did help last year. One question about the payroll roster resource does have it dead last, just a little bit above 70 million. And it was reported about a year ago, I believe by the Miami Herald that the Marlins weren't worried about another grievance being filed against them because their defense would be that they had made a lot of investments in infrastructure in the organization that weren't really reflected in player payroll. I guess maybe that worked because they didn't get a grievance filed against them last year as far as I know. But that number's still down there. So I guess two parter One, what can you tell us about those investments that they say they have made in other areas? And then two, should Marlins fans think or hope that if this core does come together, if this rebuild works, that at some point they will be willing to spend?
- [132:21]
Christina DiNicola
I can't speak to, I guess what other outlets are reporting, but I will say that the Marlins are investing a lot in technology. For example, they have several traject machines that they introduced last year. They had these like strobe glasses that were supposed to possibly Help fielders, you know, practice for grounders and drills. They recently just opened a newly renovated Marlins Jupiter Academy, they're calling it. The previous facilities that the Cardinals did as well looked honestly like high school baseball clubhouses and whatnot. So they have invested a lot there. There's the Dominican Republic Academy that opened, I believe in 2021. That's impressive. And then of course, keep in mind that there are so many pre arbitration guys on this roster. So by default they are going to make a lower payroll than, let's say, other teams. Something that will be interesting to see is because they are trying to develop talent, whether it's from drafting or signing, international free agency, or acquiring via trade, that if some of these pieces become part of a core, can they extend? Because over the off season there had been reports about Kyle Stowers, Jacob, Marcy Perez. So moving forward, that would be the avenue for the Marlins to spend money. And it's also, relatively speaking, they signed four free agents to major league deals, which doesn't really happen often for the organization. It was Pete Fairbanks, John King, Chris Paddock and Christopher Morrell. I mean, probably goes without saying that the Marlins probably won't likely be in that higher tier of spending, whether it's like the $300 million contracts that we've seen over the years with Bryce Harper type. Obviously John Carlos Stanton had that deal in the mid 2010s under the previous ownership. But the Marlins very much see themselves as an organization that wants to develop its own talent and maybe unlike previous decades, retain them longer than before for all.
- [134:23]
Ben Lindbergh
Right, so our closing question is a shorter term, one just about what would constitute success for the Marlins this year? What should their organizational goals be? How should fans assess whether this season went well?
- [134:37]
Christina DiNicola
So while last year the Marlins kind of came out of nowhere and became almost like a pseudo contender this spring, they very much believe they can contend. You know, they're different tiers of contention and a lot will remain to be seen how the pitching holds up if injuries are avoided. But the Marlins believe if they get to the deadline, they can make things interesting and maybe they're buying instead of selling. The Marlins very much believe in the idea of development. It doesn't end at the big league level. It continues. And so the key is whether they can keep trending upwards and not go from a 17 win and improvement to then suddenly losing more games this year, which we've seen in previous years with, let's say the Kansas City Royals or other teams that had made a jump. And that's going to be tricky because the league will adjust to some of these players. Now can they make the adjustment back? You know there's more info and data on them but they very much don't put necessarily specific goals like this many wins or this or that. But they keep it simple with the whole continue develop at this level and putting them in the best positions to succeed. Now if they can do that things could get interesting this year and you never know. You know the Phillies are getting older, the Braves have had quite a few injuries a provo our situation and you know the Mets are going to Mets sometimes even though I think they did get better this off season.
- [136:01]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah I saw a post on Blue sky by Lauren from Batting around and she said the Phillies have officially lost the NL East's big silly guys Fun vibes stack status, the Braves ontologically evil debatable. But the Mets have their own weird thing and the Nats Triple A roster are ineligible. So congratulations to the Marwins. That can't be right. But yeah, according to some at least the Marwins are the vibes guys of the NL east now. So that's something. And we will find out how the rest of the season goes in part by following Christina D. Nicola's coverage at mlb. Doc thank you very much, Christina.
- [136:37]
Christina DiNicola
Honestly, this I think also helps me just as much as hopefully the listeners because it kind of makes me, you know, envision what the opening day roster could look like or the different storylines or, you know, there's so much going on during spring training it feels like you, you know, so many days in a row, so many long hours that you can get disorganized and jumbled. So this is a good way of me to think, okay, these are the pictures. These are, these are the position players. These are the battles and competitions we need to look at. These are the prospects to watch. So I, I, I think I get as much of out of it as hopefully you guys are.
- [137:09]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, I'm glad we think of of these previews as the guest providing a service to the listeners and to us. But if it's, if it's reciprocal and it helps you too, even better. So thank you.
- [137:20]
Christina DiNicola
Honestly, it's a good excuse to get out of the sun for a bit because South Florida already feels like we're it's summer, there's a lot of sun out there, heat, humidity. We went straight from like 40 degrees a week or so ago to now we're back up to the mid-80s. So I also thank you for that because you know, I'm running out of sunscreen.
- [137:40]
Ben Lindbergh
I'm always in favor of staying out of the sun. All right, that will do it for today and for this week. Thanks as always for listening. In theory, we should be bringing you the long anticipated Phillies preview pod next time. You know how in my crusade against coaching encroaching on players decision making while on the field, which we just brought up with Christina on the Marlins preview, I've said that the challenge system seems to be the exception because although there will be plenty of analysis by teams about when it makes sense to challenge, the players will have to make the decision in the moment. Well, I may have spoken too soon. Last month, Tom Tango predicted that we would start to see teams signaling from the bench when it's appropriate to challenge, and it looks like that has begun to happen. Our brewers preview guest Kurt Hogue, tweeted a photo on Thursday with the caption Big Spring Happenings. Today. The brewers are instituting Phase one of Operation ABS Challenge Challenge System Rules, with coaches Evan Martin and Daniel demondasert holding up big cards to signal when or when not to challenge based on game situation. Yeah, if you thought that we were going to be exempt from more kinds of cards, well, think again. And here's an excerpt from Kurt's story for the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel it was 9:14am when a herd of nerds emerged from Pat Murphy's office. Herd of nerds emerged. I like it fit in polos emblazoned with blue and gold logos. The group behind many of the Milwaukee brewers deft moves had spent the better part of the past hour devising a team wide plan for the Automated Ball Strike Challenge system, scratching the corners of their brains to talk through any possible challenge scenario. Prior to the meeting of minds on the sofa and a love seat inside Murphy's office, ABS challenges were entirely in the hands of the players. No guidelines, no rules, just vibes and helmet taps. That changed right before the start of their game March 5th against the Colorado Rockies in Scottsdale, roughly three hours following the conclusion of the morning rendezvous. The system was simple, yet complex. Two brewers coaches, Evan Martin on offense and Daniel demondasert on defense, would hold a large green index card up from the dugout railing when it was a green light Challenge spot when batting. A sign was also relayed from Martin to third base coach Matt Erickson to pass along to the hitter, and Murphy said at the game today it's going to be a yes or no. MLB rules don't allow input from the dugout on challenges after a pitch has been thrown, but the brewers are merely clearly telling players before the pitch whether it's an acceptable helmet tapping situation or not. The first green light came in the top of the first with Blake Perkins at the plate, a runner on second facing a 32 count against Michael Lorenzen. Martin attached the Velcro card to an adhesive on the front of the dugout railing and gave the tap your helmet signal to both the hitting coach and Erickson, who relayed to Perkins. The debut of the card system was ABS101. As spring goes on and even into the regular season, the brewers will continue to add and refine until it reaches the point that players have the course down. That Murphy says is an important distinction. For now, the key players are the ones in the front office, but ultimately it will be in the hands of the actual players. It still comes down to the players, which is what I love about the rule, he said. It comes down to the players dictating. So we'll see. Is this just a spring training measure until the players figure out when they're allowed to challenge or not? Or will this be implemented permanently? And we will see this across Doug and dugouts throughout the regular season. I guess it's not so different from relaying signs from the dugout to the third base coach and then onto the hitter. The difference is cards instead of signals. But I do hope that this proves to be a teaching tool instead of a full season fixture. Now I have my doubts. The other day we were talking about whether there would be bad blood about challenges, whether there would be unwritten rules, flare ups, and Meg said she thought that it would be an era of relative good feeling because players will have some recourse they can challenge. They don't have to restrict themselves to fuming and protesting and getting thrown out. And in fact, there was some data in an ESPN piece from late last year in which MLB said 61.5% of ejections among players, managers and coaches in 2024 were related to balls and strikes, as were 60.3% through that point in the 2025 season. That includes ejections for derogatory story comments, throwing equipment while protesting calls and inappropriate conduct. So who knows, maybe even Aaron Boone will be thrown out a little less often. Or maybe managers will adjust, and players too, and that anger will find some other outlet and the ejection rate will decline less than one might think. But we were talking about whether a player might get upset at a teammate who erased their stolen base by challenging. And we were saying, well, there aren't many situations where that could happen. There is at least one though. I think if there's a third three one count with a runner on first and the runner steals second and the pitch is called a strike, but the batter challenges the strike, gets it converted to a ball, which would be ball four, which would be a walk while the runner still advances. But I think that would erase the stolen base. So yeah, it could happen. Hopefully the runner would understand, but we'll see what the etiquette would be in that situation. Also meant to mention when we were talking about the naming rights, the corporate sponsorships for ballparks and how some parks that do have corporate sponsors sort of sound like they don't Great American ballpark, etc. I meant to mention and I saw one of our listeners mention City Field kind of in that category. If you don't see it spelled and you don't think the Mets in their LOL Metsness misspelled the name of their ballpark that I at the end of City punctures the illusion. But if you just heard someone refer to Citi Field, it could kind of pass for a non sponsored park. We sure hope you'll sponsor this podcast. We'll probably never be able to afford even a spring training park called Effectively Wild Field, but we would still welcome your patronage@patreon.com effectively wild. If you go there, you can sign up and pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks as have the following five listeners Luke, Jonathan, Passant, Michelle, Lenhart, Farhan, Arif and Kate. Thanks to all of you. Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord Discord Group for patrons only, monthly bonus episodes, playoff live streams, prioritized email answers, shout outs at the end of episodes, potential podcast appearances, discounts on merch and ad free fangraphs memberships, and so much more. Check out all the offerings@patreon.com effectivelywild if you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcastangrafts.com youm can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook group@facebook.com group effectivelywild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at R Effectively Wild. You can check the podcast posted Fangraphs or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We hope you have a wonderful end of your weekend weekend and we will be back to talk to you next week. Romantic, pedantic and hypothetical, Semantic and frantic.
- [144:13]
Ryan Divish
Real or theoretical.
- [144:15]
Ben Lindbergh
They give you the stats and they give you the news.
- [144:18]
Ryan Divish
It's a baseball podcast.
- [144:20]
Ben Lindbergh
You should choose.
- [144:21]
Ryan Divish
Effectively Wild is here for you about all the weird stuff that players do.
- [144:27]
Ben Lindbergh
Authentically strange and objectively styled. Let's play ball. It's effectively wild. It's effectively wild.
- [144:38]
Ryan Divish
It's effectively wild.