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Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Effectively Wild Episode 2450: Season Preview Series: Mets and Nationals
02:35:14
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- [00:00]
Ben Lindbergh
They'll still be speaking statistically rambling, romantically, pontificating, pedantically bantering, bodily drafting, discerningly giggling, giddily, equaling effectively Wild.
- [00:16]
Meg Rowley
Hello, and welcome to episode 2450 of Effectively Wild Fangraphs baseball Podcast, brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Rowley of Fan Grafts and I'm joined by Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer. Ben, how are you doing?
- [00:29]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, enjoying some WBC action. Lots of exciting stuff going on here. US, Japan, Dr. The three favorites, a combined 100 as we speak here on Tuesday afternoon. Venezuela and Puerto Rico, also undefeated, as is Italy. Italy, too. Those espresso shots in the dugout doing the trick. So lots of fireworks, some on the field, some said by Randy Rosarina, directed in the general vicinity of Cal rally. You worried. You're worried about things in the clubhouse over there? No.
- [01:07]
Spencer Nussbaum
What's happening?
- [01:08]
Meg Rowley
Especially I. I am not particularly concerned. Yeah, I do think that you guys are being dopes and you should. You should stop being a dope. You know, you should, when presented with the opportunity to. To be a dope or shake your teammates and just. You can just shake his hand and then. And then when he's a little rude to you, hey, that sucks. Don't be a little rude. But also, you don't have to be rude and kind. I think it's fine. I mean, it's. It's not great.
- [01:43]
Ben Lindbergh
Maybe it'll be fine.
- [01:44]
Meg Rowley
I think it'll be fine. I think it'll be fine. It is a weird, you know, it's a. It's a weird part of the WBC where you have teammates who become rivals temporarily. And if it were me, I would simply be like, hey, bud, how's it going? You know, I do a little. Yeah, smooth the way, you know, because it's not an unprecedented thing for a hitter and a catcher to have a little like, hey, how's it going, Bubba?
- [02:18]
Ben Lindbergh
No, not at all.
- [02:19]
Meg Rowley
It's normal. It suggests a level of. I don't even know what the right word is, Ben. I don't. I don't think. I mean, jingoism in this particular circumstance, but it's just like, you could just. You can just step up your buddy, you know, And I do want to be mindful of, you know, you're speaking through an interpreter. And so there's like, there's the part of it that is. And he was kind of smirking, you know, and he wished Hell's parents well. So that was funny, mostly. What a weird, funny little Time, you
- [02:50]
Ben Lindbergh
know, it's very strange. Yeah. When we were talking about possible unwritten rules flare up surrounding the challenge system, I was saying just I don't discount baseball players ability to find some sort of struggle, some strife in the most mundane interactions. And this is another example. And for those who have missed this drama, there may have been further developments after we record this.
- [03:14]
Meg Rowley
But sure, sure.
- [03:15]
Ben Lindbergh
But as we are speaking here, so Randy, who is a Seattle Mariner but is also playing in the WBC and was playing against Cal rally and Team USA in the USA Mexico game. He went to shake the hand of Cal rally when he walked to the plate. Just show a little bonhomie, a little, you know, friendly. Greet your teammate.
- [03:37]
Tim Britton
Yeah.
- [03:37]
Ben Lindbergh
And Cal was not having it. He did not take the outstretched hand and there were some words said. Cal said something to Rosarena and Rosarena seemed to nod and accept whatever it was and they went about their business. And then after the game, Cal did not comment on that interaction. I think he was seen striding towards the visitors clubhouse. I don't know if, if they talked about this afterward, but Randy was asked about this and yes, it is translated. I mean he is on camera saying it in Spanish and the words themselves, I don't think a lot was lost in translation. I know that there were people who were speculating, is this a joke? Just because it seems so strange. It's like, is this a work of some sort? Like is this genuine discord? And he didn't really leave a lot to the imagination. He wasn't laughing, he wasn't smiling. He was mostly straight faced, I would say so watching this, I would not have thought, oh, this is all one big joke. But yeah, he didn't really mince words. He said in, in several ways, essentially screw that guy, you know. And we'll link to the full translation and the video itself if you want to hear it right from Randy's mouth here. But yeah, he sounded like not a big fan of Cal at least at this moment and told him to go to hell, screw off in so many words in multiple languages. And, and at the end left him with that fake ass. Good to see you. He hit me with. He can shove it straight up his ass. I'm out. Of course he said that in Spanish and then he walked away. So. So that's the last we've heard and I imagine that they both may address it after we speak today. But Mariners teammates have been tiptoeing around it in Mariners camp of course, and even Mariners manager he, you know, he he talked about it Dan Wilson and he at first feigned that he didn't know what he was being asked about, but then he essentially said what you said, which is that I don't think it'll be an issue long term, of course. What else is he going to say? And he hadn't talked to either of them yet, so he didn't really know that much more than that. We do. So it's a weird one. And you wonder if there's other history there, if there are previous interactions between these two. Because it would be somewhat abrupt for this to be the only thing that had touched off what Rosarena ranted about. But. But there's history of this sort of thing.
- [06:09]
Meg Rowley
Yes.
- [06:10]
Spencer Nussbaum
So.
- [06:10]
Ben Lindbergh
So Mark deroza, who's the manager of Team usa, he made clear that there's no team policy about this, that they haven't said you can't be friendly toward opponents.
- [06:23]
Meg Rowley
Also declined to shake Randy's hand. Right.
- [06:26]
Ben Lindbergh
Yes. In a, in a previous wbc. Right. This is. Okay.
- [06:30]
Meg Rowley
It wasn't this wbc. I guess they would. Of course it wouldn't.
- [06:33]
Ben Lindbergh
This is all wbc will all happen again. But yeah, deroza said that there's no policy against fraternizing with opponents. He said, to be honest, when it happened on the bench, we were like, oof, okay. And their teammates. So he's not really doing anything to
- [06:48]
Meg Rowley
downplay this also was a moment. I, I'll let you get back to what he was saying, but there was a moment on the, on the broadcast of that game where and I, you'll have to forgive me because I'm not remembering the, the exact circumstances that sort of preceded this standup. But they basically did a like, no, we are fun. You know, Ken, Ken's up there being like, Team USA's heard you say they're not fun. We're fun. You know, we're light hearted group. And I'm like, I don't know, you guys seem very serious.
- [07:17]
Ben Lindbergh
You should chill out a little. I know. Yeah. And yeah, it was 2023, the Will Smith and Rosarina incident. And at the time Rosarina said he left me hanging, but I'm not going to cry. I kept going and hit two doubles. And it has happened though in this WBC with other players in teams because the Australians. Yes. Robbie Perkins of Team Australia declined to shake hands with Milan prop who was the Czech leadoff man. Apologies for possible mispronunciations there. And he felt stuck out his hand, the batter. And Perkins declined it too and said there's no malice we're out there competing. Once we got on the field, we're out there to beat them. That's all it is. So on the one hand, I suppose it speaks to how seriously players are taking the wbc, which I like to see that. I like to see that they care. And you can tell. Tarek Skuble had a, a long, dark night of the soul. Did some agonizing, did some soul searching. After his lone start for Team usa, he was deciding, actually, do I want to keep going? And then ultimately decided, no, I'm going to go back to Tiger's camp, previously agreed to, but it clearly pained him to do that. And you could see how much Paul Skins was into things and, and the way he was looking at Bobby Witt Jr. With, with eyes that he's previously only reserved for, for Livy Dunn. I mean, these guys care and, and that's good because I think that helps us as, as fans, as spectators buy into it. If they're treating it like it matters, then we treat it like it matters. But also, yeah, it's. Your teammates wants to shake hands, you know, in the spirit of sportsmanship or something. I, I don't see an issue with that.
- [08:55]
Tim Britton
Come on, buddy.
- [08:56]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, I, I have talked before about how I do have a semi old school attitude toward this. I don't think that there needs to be any strict no fraternization policy. We think they need to enforce the
- [09:09]
Meg Rowley
rule that's literally in the rulebook.
- [09:10]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. Because, because all these guys are buddies. They're literally in the same union. You know, they're members of a fraternity. Yeah. They, they've played with each other, against each other, etc. So it's sort of silly to pretend that there's no friendship here. But also, there are times, and I've, I've said as much when, during a game, I feel like if it's a tense game and it's high stakes or there's really something riding on the outcome, and then you do see guys just kind of palling around and joking and it does almost detract, especially if there's some sort of historical rivalry between those teams. I just want you to kind of keep kayfabe in a wrestling sense. You know, you don't have to be out there like baring your teeth at each other, but just saying, you know, kind of maintain the facade of like, we're, we're opponents, we're competitors, we're actually going against each other here. So, you know, sometimes I have seen, you know, it kind of crosses a line For. For players on the team and they get upset about, say, teammates being too buddy buddy with opponents or something. But even for me as a fan, as someone watching, it does kind of me out of it a little bit if, like, you know, you're sitting on the edge of your seat and meanwhile, it's like, you know, guys are just joking around at second base or something. I'm. I'm always fine with some banter at first base. You know, love that tradition. Someone gets on base and you have a talkative first baseman chatting him up, etc. But yeah, there's. There's a certain amount of that that I don't mind being reined in a bit temporarily, but I don't think. Just a greeting, a handshake. Yeah, cordial. Hey, we're teammates most of the time, but today we're competitors, so best of luck to you, sir. I think that's. That's perfectly fine. That doesn't diminish the sense of competition whatsoever.
- [10:58]
Meg Rowley
I agree. I think Cal's been a little silly. I hope we come to learn that they have made up and kissed if they want to and that all is well. I also think that, like, on the one hand, sure, it stands out more because they are teammates in the major league context, but as an aside, I think if someone who isn't your teammate comes up and is like, hey, respectful handshake acknowledging you a terrific player. Also fine to return that handshake if that's the first time you've ever met them in your whole entire life, you know?
- [11:31]
Spencer Nussbaum
Agreed.
- [11:31]
Meg Rowley
Yeah, I just think a little. Come on, Cal. And like, Randy. What can I say? Randy seems like an odd person. He seems like a person who has some odd traits to him. And so I think some of this is just like Randy being Randy in terms of the precise delivery, but, yeah, a little odd. But also Cal, come on, buddy. Come on, Come on, come on.
- [11:51]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. Would be quite a twist if they did decide that they wanted to kiss after not even being willing to do this moderate amount of. This minimum amount of pda. That would be almost trying too hard to say, oh, no, there's no bad blood here. Not only are we okay with each other, we're. We're smooching.
- [12:08]
Meg Rowley
They can do a very manly pat. Pat on the back, you know, very like. Pat pat.
- [12:13]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, they could grow hug or something. But I assume that they will walk this back and play it down in some way when they're asked about it. And I'll update that if necessary. But you do always wonder, will that bad blood linger, you know, even if they kind of put a good face on it and say it's not an issue, it's just. I mean, I would just take it as a bit of an affront if I were Randy. But then also, if I were Cal, seeing that Randy rant being like, whoa, that was. Escalated quickly. So.
- [12:45]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah.
- [12:46]
Ben Lindbergh
So anyway, there's a lot happening here. This is. This is, I guess, the joys of international competition.
- [12:52]
Meg Rowley
Yeah. But they. But I will say Randy seems to have a ton of affection for Cal's parents.
- [12:57]
Ben Lindbergh
Yes, that's true.
- [12:58]
Meg Rowley
Can't go. Can't go. He can be too bad.
- [13:01]
Spencer Nussbaum
Right?
- [13:02]
Meg Rowley
It's like, you think that Randy's, like, texting Cal's mom, being like, hey, tell your son to straighten up.
- [13:08]
Ben Lindbergh
Maybe that's how they. They patch things up. They use Cal's parents as the intermediaries or something. But that was. Yeah, that was how he be Ray.
- [13:17]
Meg Rowley
I have.
- [13:18]
Ben Lindbergh
The only thing he should be thankful for is having such great parents. He's very well educated. Thank God. I was lucky enough to see them a few days ago at the hotel. They came over to greet me, gave me a big hug, and were genuinely proud to see me. So that was interesting. Is that also sort of a slight. It's like his parents were hugging me, and he won't even shake my hands. I don't even know how to read the layers of subtext here. Although a lot of it was just pure text, but. Right.
- [13:42]
Meg Rowley
This is what I'm saying. And I don't mean to imply that he was, like, misinterpreted or what have you. And you're right, we have the whole thing on video. But I just. I wonder if there is something that is getting a little lost here, because it is. It's just an odd. The. The way it's expressed is a bit odd.
- [13:59]
Ben Lindbergh
Yes. Or at least some history, some backstory of some sort.
- [14:03]
Meg Rowley
Anyway, Mariners. Hey, hey, focus up, you guys.
- [14:07]
Ben Lindbergh
Focus. Yeah, so we can't ask Divish about that because we've already done our Mariners preview, and we won't talk about the Jesus Lizardo extension today because we're going to be talking Phillies later this week. We are, and we don't have to. Latest Atlanta Braves pitching injury Joey Wentz this time because we're going to be talking about the Braves later this week. And, you know, I guess we have already covered the Reds. And I already fretted and wrung my hands about Hunter Green, and sure enough, he's out for at least a few months. With surgery to remove bone chips, so.
- [14:39]
Meg Rowley
And loose bodies.
- [14:40]
Ben Lindbergh
Loose bodies. Got to get those loose bodies out of there. Yeah, but I remember Trent saying that probably the rotation log jam would work itself out one way or another.
- [14:51]
Meg Rowley
Tend to.
- [14:52]
Ben Lindbergh
And yeah, that's, that's happening. You can never have enough pitching. But we will be previewing two teams today with two athletic writers. We'll be talking. Well, look, I don't know if they're athletic, but they, they're writers for the athletic. Tim Britton will be joining us to talk about the Mets, followed by Spencer Nussbaum on the Nationals. And if you're worrying about what this means and the projections and the order of previews, never fear, we are going a little out of order. This was actually supposed to be the day for the Phillies and Angels preview, but just for schedul conflict reasons and availability of guests, we're pushing that to next time. And we're doing Mets and Nats today. Ultimately, it doesn't matter that much. We're going to get to all 30, I promise. But a couple of WBC issues that have come up not related to Randy or Rally. We got a few questions on the same subject. And you know when, when our, our mailbox just starts pinging and we get three or four emails on exactly the same subject in quick succession, you know that something has touched a nerve, effectively. Wild listener base. And I don't know, I guess I'll read a few of these. So we got questions about the mercy rule inducing home run. So Nick Patreon supporter said, I just read the ESPN headline that Soto's homer forces run rule victory for Dominican Republic. So this was the Doctor's 121 victory over the Netherlands. And Nick says, my immediate thought was, isn't that a walk off? It's a walk off in the sense that the offense scored a run in order to immediately win the game. However, pummeling your opponent by 11 runs doesn't necessarily seem like the same cause for celebration as a true walk off. So my question is, do you consider a run rule victory a walk off or is it something else entirely? And then we got a question from Rory. He said while watching Panama Canada on the ticker, they had the stats from the Dr. Game.
- [16:45]
Meg Rowley
Yes.
- [16:46]
Ben Lindbergh
Which had the following Soto 1 for 3 mercy rule inducing to run Homer in the seventh inning. Yes, it is literally what happened. But I think there should be a shorthand name for this. I would go with a stomp off home run, which is a play on walk off, obviously. And stomping is more aggressive. And demonstrative than walking. And then the last one of these I'll read comes from Shaul, who says the WBC had its first true walk off. However, they also have a mercy rule. Is it a walk off if a team scores enough to activate the mercy rule? Technically, they did score a run in that instance, which seals the game. Or does a walk off imply that it's the end of the game and without scoring, a team would lose if it was trailing or regulation would end or there would be more extra innings if the score were to hold. So, yes, there. There was the actual walk off, which was the first classic traditional walk off in the wbc. Although there was some confusion because the announcer seemed not to know immediately that the game was over and referred to a team taking a lead and then kind of tried to cover for it, seemingly. So that wasn't the smoothest walk off call, but. But yeah, that was an exciting ending. That was Ozzy Albius in the Netherlands Nicaragua game. Right? Yeah. So many games in such a short span now. Hard to keep them straight. Lots of exciting stuff. But that's the question. Does this count as a walk off if you hit a homer to trigger the mercy rule and end the game?
- [18:11]
Meg Rowley
My answer is, I think technically yes, but it wouldn't be the way I would refer to it if it were me in the booth. It's like a subtype of a walk off that if you describe it in the terms of what is actually ending the game, which is the mercy rule, I think is more descriptive. I think it tells you more about the circumstance that ends the game. I haven't been warming up, so I can't do like an excited rendering of that home run. Sorry. But you know, it would be something along the lines of like. And he, you know, it's a rerun shot to mercy rule. Like that. Isn't that so compelling? You're like, wow, you really transported me, Meg. I'm. I'm in it. I'm. It's like I'm there. It's like we've go back in time and traveled through space. It's like that.
- [19:09]
Ben Lindbergh
Yes, yes, I felt the excitement there, but really you should feel.
- [19:13]
Meg Rowley
Thank you for yes. Anding me in that moment.
- [19:15]
Ben Lindbergh
You shouldn't feel that much excitement in that moment because it's not that exciting. Yes, the game is over, but it's for all intents and purposes over already.
- [19:24]
Spencer Nussbaum
Which is.
- [19:24]
Ben Lindbergh
Which is why you have a mercy rule.
- [19:26]
Meg Rowley
Exactly. The. The home run is exciting and winning the game is exciting. Lingering on mercy ruling another team is unseemly. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a tricky thing. You know, that's a hard needle to thread because you want to be amped about winning. But you know, you, you just embarrassed professionals. Well, at least some of them are professional baseball players. And so you want to, you want to keep the excitement about you and the home run and the, and less about the mercy ruling because I think that, you know, people feel bad about that. So it's tricky, it's a tricky thing. But mercy ruling is, is more descriptive. It paints a, it paints a better picture than saying a walk off because, you know, most, most people's context for a walk off is a completely different game state than the mercy rule describes. Right? Because most of the time when you're, you're walking off, when you've hit a walk off, you're either tired or behind. So there's tension to your point, right? There's all this, there's tension, otherwise it's not a walk off. You're just, you just don't play that, have the inning.
- [20:46]
Ben Lindbergh
Right.
- [20:47]
Meg Rowley
So you, you gotta, you gotta focus on the mercy rule part because that describes the game state, I think, more specifically, although there is tension in the WBC context, I suppose, because mercy ruling a team is, well, it's embarrassing for them, but it's, it's, it's advantageous for you from a pitch pitcher. Use perspective. So you could be excited about that, right, that you're preserving your arms, you
- [21:14]
Ben Lindbergh
know, I think so. Generally, Dennis Eckersley gets credit for coining the term walk off, although I think he originally referred to it as a walk off piece and he was referring specifically to home runs and also to the closer to the guy who just gave up that home run, who's now dejectedly Charlie Brown walking off the field because they just lost the game. And gradually it's evolved as a lot of terms do, and sometimes you even hear it applied to other sports. But it's also long since migrated to other ways to end a game. It doesn't have to be a home run anymore.
- [21:53]
Meg Rowley
It doesn't have to be home run.
- [21:54]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, there's maybe been a bit of walk off creep. Some people think we use the term too liberally and so probably would not want it extended to yet another game ending scenario.
- [22:04]
Meg Rowley
What are the circumstances where people use it where it's not a walk off?
- [22:08]
Ben Lindbergh
It is, I think it's just. Yeah, some people think it should be reserved for like home runs. Yeah, basically, yeah. And, and probably, I think by the Eckerley definition or just by the. The letter of the term, I think it applies to the mercy rule ending because you are dejectedly walking off. The game is over. So it fits technically, but this isn't something we're going to have to worry about all that often, unless Rob Manfred decides to add a mercy rule to MLP or something about college baseball maybe. Yeah. And we've, we've talked about the advisability of a mercy rule and is it better to just have something like that instead of going through the charade of position player pitchers or whatever. But as long as this is not a Major League baseball phenomenon, we probably will not have to consider this question all that often. But yeah, I probably wouldn't. Wouldn't say it unless I were kind of joking about how it was a walk off technically, but didn't really feel like one. I don't mind. Stomp off. Stomp off's not bad because it does illustrate that this was a real pounding. Like this was a drubbing. You know, we stomped you. We didn't just beat you. It wasn't a close game. We just ran roughshod over you. So stomp off kind of works, I guess.
- [23:24]
Meg Rowley
I know, but it feels so me, you know, Like I like mercy rule because it, it suggests, you know, an extension of grace toward the bums who can't score runs.
- [23:37]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, Yeah. I don't have a problem really for mercy rule inducing. It's wordy, obviously, to have to say it's a mercy rule inducing dinger or something. I don't know. That doesn't really roll right off the tongue, but how often do you have to say it? So if there is more common parlance for this in college or any other level, or Little League for that matter, or a mercy rule happens more often, then by all means do let us know if something has taken hold that we could substitute here. But given how rarely we have to consider this question, I don't. I don't mind saying mercy rule inducing. Home run. It's okay.
- [24:14]
Meg Rowley
I have a Cal update.
- [24:17]
Ben Lindbergh
Ah, okay.
- [24:18]
Meg Rowley
Cal Raleigh via FaceTime Just now said he reached out to Randy Rosarina as well as Dan Wilson after last night's exchange at the World Baseball Classic in Houston. And this is coming from Daniel Kramer. There's no beef. I love Randy. Like I said, when we're back in Seattle, he's my brother. He's family. I think it's. I. I would like to hear from Randy.
- [24:37]
Ben Lindbergh
Yes, it seemed like there was A bit of beef. They were the beef boys, briefly. At least for a little while there.
- [24:42]
Meg Rowley
But I, I, I suspect I, I remain steadfast in my belief that this will probably.
- [24:49]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, be.
- [24:49]
Meg Rowley
It'll go over, I'm sure I can, I. May I offer a tiny bit of feedback to Team usa?
- [24:56]
Ben Lindbergh
Sure.
- [24:57]
Meg Rowley
Guys. Chill out a little bit, I think, you know, like, Ben, I know you have other stuff, but doesn't. And I understand Skeens was pitching and then Griffin Jax was pitching. I feel like there's a lot of. There's a lot of military talk on that broadcast last night, man. Like more than usual, even. And we have a good amount on a normal night, you know, situation like that. So it's just like everybody. You could just talk more about Bobby. Talk more about it.
- [25:26]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [25:26]
Meg Rowley
Yo, Bobby. Bobby. With Junior, man, I don't know, I don't know if you know this. He's a pretty good baseball player.
- [25:32]
Ben Lindbergh
Yes, he's quite good. I think. I, I referred to him as a perfect player, in fact, recently on the podcast. But yeah, yeah, it is nice because he does tend to get overshadowed by Judge and Otani because they are so great. No, no, not last night.
- [25:46]
Meg Rowley
Yeah, not last night.
- [25:47]
Spencer Nussbaum
All right.
- [25:47]
Ben Lindbergh
It's pretty special, too. Yeah.
- [25:49]
Meg Rowley
Yeah, pretty special.
- [25:49]
Ben Lindbergh
Okay.
- [25:50]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yep.
- [25:50]
Tim Britton
All right.
- [25:51]
Ben Lindbergh
And okay, one other WBC thing. We got an email about this and I probably should have done a deeper dive into the rules, but this is interesting. This is also about game endings. This comes to us from Connor, who says with Korea securing their spot in the WBC quarters with a 7 to 2 victory, needing to win by five and allow no more than two runs, what would have happened if Korea was the home team in this game and entered the bottom of the ninth with a 6 to 2 lead, still needing one run to qualify for the quarters? Could they have elected to bat? MLB has this to say about regulation games. If not terminated early, regulation games last until the trailing team has had the chance to make 27 outs, nine innings. If the home team is leading after the visiting team has made three outs in the top of the ninth inning, the home team wins and does not have to come to bat in the bottom of the ninth. As pedantic experts does not have to imply that they can if they want to. Is there a world where a manager refuses to leave the dugout because they haven't won enough yet? If the umpire tries to call the game, could the home team theoretically just stand in the batter's box and refuse to leave until a pitch is thrown? There's no explicit definition of a regulation game from the WBC listed on the MLP website, so I assume they rely on MLB rules to determine the this Some extra curiosity. If this elective 9th inning exists in the MLP rulebook, why don't we see it for milestone chasing? Could a team up by 10 runs force the opposition to keep pitching just so a player can try for a cycle for their 3000s hit? Or would the league step in to prevent what would essentially be sanctioned stat padding? I can't tell you that there were instances early in major league history where they did play what we would now consider to be unnecessary bottoms of the 9th. They just hadn't developed the convention that if you were winning, you didn have to finish out the game. So they did have the home team that was winning just play and potentially run up the score. So that has happened in major league history. It hasn't happened for a very long time, and until 1950 or so, the home team could choose whether it wanted last licks or first licks, though the home team choosing to bat first was pretty rare by the time the 20th century rolled around. I did look up the history of what we would consider unnecessary bottoms of the ninth, though, in the indispensable A Game of Inches, a book Peter Morris that documents how just about everything in baseball came to be. And he writes, once it was established that a game was to last nine innings, the requirement was taken literally. If the club batting last was ahead after eight and a half innings, it wouldn't have occurred to early players not to complete the game. After all, a baseball match was a ceremony rather than a competition, and for the losers to walk off the field would be the ultimate act of poor sportsmanship. This custom of completing the game persisted throughout the increasingly competitive 1870s, while many other gentlemanly traditions died out out before the 1874 season, a proposal was made to end play after eight and a half innings if the outcome was decided, but the idea was discussed somewhat unfavorably and voted down. Nor was it simply a case of going through the motions in the bottom of the ninth. In many cases, a side that had already won piled up many additional runs against demoralized opponents. There is an 1879 instance in a tournament where the trailing team glumly walked off the field before the bottom of the ninth and the umpire ruled the game a nine nothing forfeit. The newspapers criticized the club for the breach of etiquette. More action and walking off the field helped to pave the way for the walk off hit. This and Similar incidents made it obvious that a custom once designed to promote good sportsmanship was instead creating ill will. The rule was finally changed that off season. So if the side at bat in the ninth inning secure the winning run, the game is to be called without putting out three men as heretofore. So the first sudden death victory in major league history took place on opening day of the National League's 1880 season. Reason. But this is. This is an interesting one. Just because we are dealing with rules that are somewhat separate from MLB rules. And. And yeah, if a run differential comes into play or determines whether you advance in this tournament, then you do actually have some incentive to play on if they let you.
- [29:59]
Meg Rowley
Yeah, yeah. I feel like you. I mean, since run differential is a potential determinant of advancement, it feels like they should let you, right?
- [30:11]
Ben Lindbergh
I guess, but maybe not.
- [30:13]
Meg Rowley
I actually, I. I had a headache earlier and I feel so discombobulated by podcasting right now. Can you tell?
- [30:22]
Ben Lindbergh
I think you could make that case. But then also you could say, well, it's convention not to play the bottom of the ninth if you're winning and you're the home team. So therefore the run differential is just what you have before that point. And you can't make an exception for you to just keep playing if you. If you want to, because maybe an opponent could have done the same in a game and they didn't because they didn't know that they needed to or something. Yeah.
- [30:49]
Meg Rowley
Plus, like, you're making the other team use pitching and, you know, in an event like this where there's such strict rules around pitching usage, that feels a little rude, you know?
- [31:00]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, yeah. Also, in the current MLB rule book, there is a rule I'm reading right now, rule 7.01g. The score of a regulation game is the total number of runs scored by each run at the moment the game ends. I love when rule books have to define, like, what's the score? Or how do you tell who won? Oh, the team that had more runs when the game ends. And how do you know when the game ends? Well, rule 7.01g, parenthesis 1, says the game ends when the visiting team completes its half of the ninth inning, if the home team is ahead. And then it goes on to say, the game ends when the ninth inning is completed, if the visiting team is ahead, if the home team scores the winning run in its half of the ninth inning, or it's half of an extra inning after a tie, the game ends immediately when the winning run is scored. So I Am reading that and interpreting that to say that you can't voluntarily decide or unilaterally decide to play the bottom of the ninth if you are the home team and you are winning because it says the game ends when the visiting team completes its half of the ninth if the home team is ahead. So, yeah, I do believe that that has been the rule for a while, and presumably that also applies to the wbc. So I. I don't think you could just choose and say, hey, not so fast. Get back out here. We want to play the bottom of the ninth, too. But I think that would be a little unfair in that scenario when one team knows that. Okay. Yeah, we actually have to keep playing to. To juice our total here. And other teams did not know that prior to that situation.
- [32:34]
Meg Rowley
That's fair. Yeah, I think. I think that's right. That makes. That hangs together.
- [32:38]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yep.
- [32:38]
Ben Lindbergh
I mean, in spring training, the rules are relaxed, and you. You have, you know, pitchers who are removed from the game who can come back in because they just gotta get their work in and. And whatever. And so there was a game in spring training in 2023 when the Orioles and Pirates played the bottom of the net ninth, even though the game should have ended because the Orioles wanted to get some work for a pitcher, and the Pirates were fine with it. And evidently the league was fine with it, too, but the crew chief wasn't. So the umpires just left, and Orioles catcher Maverick Handley called balls and strikes. So something similar were to happen in a real game, for some reason, probably the umps would just walk off the field. Everyone would leave, and it'd be like, nope, we're done. But also, I think that that is what the rules dictate at this point.
- [33:21]
Spencer Nussbaum
Point.
- [33:22]
Ben Lindbergh
All right, well, you can.
- [33:23]
Meg Rowley
You can roll innings in spring. It's.
- [33:25]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [33:26]
Meg Rowley
It's.
- [33:27]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [33:27]
Meg Rowley
Wild out there.
- [33:28]
Ben Lindbergh
It's spring training for everyone. So love the WBC for all of these scenarios that it. It forces us or encourages us to consider that we would not normally. And speaking of the league preventing teams from doing something, I did a little outro rant on the last episode of last week because after we recorded, it was reported that the brewers had debuted a system for signaling to their batters when it was acceptable to challenge.
- [33:57]
Meg Rowley
Yeah.
- [33:58]
Ben Lindbergh
And. And they had big cards and everything, like green and red cards that they would hang on the dugout, and it would. It wasn't. It was prior to the pitches. It wasn't after the pitch because, you know, you can't consult with the dugouts deciding whether to challenge. There's no time to. But also, you're not allowed to. Right. But the brewers were. Were trying to semi get around that, but prior to the pitch, just saying, hey, if this is a questionable call, this is a situation where you're allowed to challenge.
- [34:26]
Spencer Nussbaum
Right.
- [34:27]
Ben Lindbergh
And I was somewhat dismayed by that just because it. It felt like another example of the coaching encroaching into the players decisions. And as I acknowledge, this is not that different from just the regular signs and signals that are passed to a batter before the pitch. Like, you know, the batter still has to decide whether to swing. The batter would still have to decide whether to challenge. But it still felt like one of the things I had celebrated about the challenge system is that it did preserve player agency, and they were the ones on the spot who had to make the call. And so to even slightly take that out of their hands in this sort of formal. A lot of it was just the cards, probably that bothered me. You know, just card creep. We've got the positioning cards. We've got the catcher cards. Everyone's got cards. Pitchers have had cards. So another giant card I didn't love. And to my surprise, actually, MLB has stepped in.
- [35:22]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah.
- [35:23]
Ben Lindbergh
And. And banned the brewers and. And anyone from doing this. They've said that you're not allowed to. That it's against the spirit of the challenge system rules, which I was kind of heartened by, actually. And I don't know exactly where they'll draw the line if it's just about the cards. Like, what if someone yells over there? Or what if it's just a signal that they pass as they're passing? You know, take or swing or right. Like, how do you police that? And would you even want to. Is it just about the visual and this being kind of glaring and obtrusive and maybe. Maybe that's all it is. And teams will find some other way to convey this to batters in real time. But, you know, I have to hand it to nlp, I think, for stepping in and saying we do not. We want to draw the line somewhere, and we don't want all of this to be dictated and for it to be on cards. And so I'm kind of encouraged by that.
- [36:18]
Meg Rowley
It seemed like such an obvious violation of the spirit of the rule that I was maybe a little less surprised than you were that they would intervene, but I'm glad that they did, you know. Yeah.
- [36:29]
Ben Lindbergh
Okay, well, kudos. We'll see whether teams keep trying to push the envelope there and. And find ways around this and you know, other than just coaching up their players prior to the game between innings, which is completely acceptable. Give them all the info, give them the ground rules, but in that moment, let them make the call. So I'm glad that that was preserved to some extent also. We got an email which I think anticipated a column that subsequently appeared at the Athletic by Brit Roli. We got a question from Ethan in Minneapolis who asked about contract nullification for players with PD suspensions. And Ethan asked. A thought came to me in the aftermath of the Jerks and Profar suspension. If a player receives a PD suspension, should the team have the option to nullify that player's contract? Ethan says, the way I see it, a PED suspension not only affects the 80 or 162 games a player misses, it also complicates a team's roster construction, calls into question the validity of the player's past performance on which the contract was signed, and hurts the marketability of the player. Additionally, the lost time means the player may be rusty when they come back from the suspension. Surely the Braves would be interested in nullifying Profar's contract and I don't think anyone would blame them for it. Putting the performance enhancing component aside, a similar argument could be made for other suspensions, such as domestic violence suspensions. Is this a good idea or is it a terrible anti player, pro billionaire idea that the union would never go for? From a crime and punishment perspective, does this create too harsh a penalty that does not fit the crime? So this thought came to Ethan. Evidently it also came to Britt. It came to Miles Michaelis, whom Britt quoted in that piece. Soto Michaelis. We'll be talking about those guys in our previews today. But she seemed to say that there was some sentiment at least among players for not defending players who get suspended or at least are repeat offenders the way that Profar is. This column took a lot of flack, I would say, and some of which I would also say was probably justified. But yeah, Ethan, you're not the only one who is considering bring this hypothetical.
- [38:41]
Meg Rowley
I think Brit does really good work and I think that this is bad policy. Yeah, Major League Baseball has a very punitive drug agreement. And while you're suspended for PEDs, as profor is about to find out for the second time, we just take a moment, like what a bonehead. You know, just like, don't be such a bonehead guy. What are you doing? What are you doing? You know, assuming that his suspension is upheld, he's going to miss out on an entire year of salary. All contracts in major league baseball carry some amount of risk that they will not result in the kind of performance the team is expecting when the player signed. And this is obviously an instance where things are worse for the team in a way that is more directly the fault of the player than in say an instance of injury or just decline underperformance. But I think part of the responsibility of a major league club when you're going to sign a guy to a multi year contract is to have an understanding to the best of your ability of you know who he is. And the Braves miss the mark. They don't have to pay him, not
- [39:53]
Ben Lindbergh
while he's suspended, but not while he's suspended.
- [39:55]
Meg Rowley
They don't have to pay him while he's suspended. It's not like they have to play a man down.
- [40:00]
Tim Britton
So.
- [40:01]
Meg Rowley
So I think that the escalating punishments in the CBA as it's in the joint drug agreement as it's currently constituted, where you have huge jumps in the number of games and a three strikes in your out policy, I think that that's fine. I think the way that it's set up is fine. I think setting precedent for teams being able to void deals is a dangerous precedent to set. I think it's a bananas thing to entertain going into a CBA negotiation year. But knowing what we know about Miles Michael is perhaps not super surprising. I do think it is instructive to hear from players about like how offensive they find the notion of some of their brethren taking performance enhancing drugs. I do think there are guys for whom that is like a, a deeply problematic course. But as you noted when we talked about profar suspension, this also wasn't really a problem. Right. Like there, there just aren't that many guys on big multi year big league deals who are getting popped for, forgive a gross way of describing this pissing hot. There just aren't that many of them, you know. And so I think this is a, a solution in search of a problem more than it is anything else. I also think that like the union has to represent its membership. It has to represent its membership in moments where they are the aggrieved party and they have to represent the membership when they are the ones doing the grieving because that's their job as a union and we can't have them selectively living up to the responsibility to advocate on behalf of their members. So I wish that Miles Michaelis would read a book. And I think that from a policy perspective this sets you on a road that has really bad Consequences for labor in circumstances where labor has not pissed hot, I decided I wanted to say that twice. I guess, you know, I could tell.
- [42:15]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. Yeah. So when Michaela said he's got plenty of money and time now to defend himself without the need of the players association and I don't think the PA should be doing anything. Yeah, that's, I think, misunderstanding the purpose of the union. I understand why you wouldn't be super sympathetic to Profar.
- [42:31]
Spencer Nussbaum
Sure.
- [42:32]
Ben Lindbergh
And maybe you're saying, yeah, he's a cheater. I don't cheat. He's trying to get an advantage over me. Why should I help him out indirectly? But you want the union to have your back. If something happens now, you might say, well, I'm not going to get caught doing that because I would never do that. Well, you could just accidentally trigger a test. But also it could be something else.
- [42:53]
Tim Britton
Right.
- [42:54]
Ben Lindbergh
And that's just a bright line for the union and that's something that the MLB Players association has going for it that other unions don't in some cases is they have guaranteed contracts.
- [43:04]
Tim Britton
Right.
- [43:05]
Ben Lindbergh
And it's not nebulous the way that contracts are in the NFL and other leagues where you see the number. But then the actual payout could turn out to be anything else. In mlb you get that contract, you're going to get that money. Money. And so, yes, setting some sort of precedent for letting teams out of guaranteed contracts, that's some dangerous territory. That's some slippery slope potential.
- [43:26]
Meg Rowley
Yep.
- [43:27]
Ben Lindbergh
Now you could entertain this in the next round of bargaining. I, you know, if you don't want to like make this particular case a two time or three time offender or whatever, like if you don't want to go to bat for them. Every time I think people misunderstand. It's, it's very much a bedrock of like a union of a legal system. You know, everyone's entitled to a defense.
- [43:51]
Meg Rowley
I guess what I'm gonna, I'm gonna go out on a limb. I don't know what the results of the grievance are gonna be, but I bet the Profor is not going to emerge from this with a reduced suspension. You know, in all likelihood he's gonna serve 162.
- [44:06]
Ben Lindbergh
Like most likely.
- [44:07]
Meg Rowley
Yeah, most likely.
- [44:09]
Ben Lindbergh
And so if, if teams, like if the owners made it a top priority to say in this specific instance, I saw some people also griping about Fernando Tatis's contract like he had the PD suspension. Maybe he was misleading the Padres or something. First of all, Tatisa's contract I think looks pretty fine. Now, now that he's come back from the suspension and injuries and everything and, and has become a star again, like what he's making is far from unreasonable. It might even be kind of a bargain potentially. But just putting that aside, I think because it's so limited, it's not that big an issue. As you said, it's just like a handful of guys that this has ever happened to who have multi time suspensions and if the union said okay, like this is a concession maybe we're willing to make. Because the whole testing system came about as a result of bargaining and concessions and, and the players, you know, for them like instituting PD testing was not as much of a no go as say a salary cap. Right? Like they were willing to, to play ball, so to speak. They were motivated to some extent themselves to self police or to you know, get the drugs out of the game. Like they didn't want to have people cheating. They wanted a more level playing field. They didn't want, want to feel the pressure that they had to take substances to keep up with their competitors and everything. And they wanted the game to be perceived as clean too. So the players had some incentive and a lot of them felt strongly about that. Like yeah, we, we actually do want to hold the cheaters accountable because I'm not a cheater. So. And that's how we ended up with the system that we have now and that we've had for quite a while. And this was collectively bargained. And so you don't want to unilaterally say, well we agreed to have it work this way, but we're just gonna hand you all this money back just out of the goodness of their hearts or something. If it came up in bargaining again and owners were making some big stink, I don't know why it would be a top priority for them because this doesn't happen all that often. But very often if they did and you felt like you could extract some more valuable concession for them if you said that, I don't know, whatever, like if someone is, is tests positive two or three times or something, then they're on their own. Or you know, I don't know, like you wouldn't want to just let people out to dry because there could be mistakes or false positives or something, but you could come to some agreement. You just decide, well, it's not a top priority for us to protect people who have been found to have tested positive not just once, but multiple times. They should have known better. We warned them, we made resources available to them. Them, etc. So if there's enough sentiment that. That they're willing to concede on that in order to get something from the other side, then I think that's, you know, worth entertaining. I guess it's just that that's. That's not the way that it works currently. And to depart from the system they agreed on would be pretty foolhardy. So, yeah, it's not saying that Profar is a great guy and we believe he's innocent. It's just. Just he's entitled to a defense because we want all of our members to be entitled to a defense.
- [47:22]
Spencer Nussbaum
Right.
- [47:22]
Meg Rowley
I. Yep. I think. Yep, yep, yep.
- [47:26]
Ben Lindbergh
All right, that's that. And the last thing I will note, we have talked on our bonus pods on occasion. I remember talking about how I'm quite fond of when a guitarist, a musician has a signature instrument, it's usually a guitarist, they have a guitar that they've been using forever.
- [47:44]
Meg Rowley
And like the actual instrument itself.
- [47:46]
Ben Lindbergh
Yes. The one single.
- [47:48]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yes.
- [47:48]
Ben Lindbergh
So, you know, Neil Young has Old Black and he's been using it forever. Or Willie Nelson has Trigger. You know, there's some of these famous ones and it's. It's cool because, like, you know, they. They show where they get old along with their. Their players. And it's just a. You know, and it outlives them. I mean, not to be morbid about it, but it's, you know, if you see something that you go to an exhibit, a museum or something, and you see someone's signature instrument or even if it's like on loan or something, you know, it's something that connects you to their performance and, and lives on after them. So I love that. I love when a musician has a signature guitar, you know, like Brian May's guitar or whoever it is. Right. Who has some signature design and it accompanies them throughout their career. Brian May's Red Special, whatever it is, there are lots of examples. And I wish that this were a thing in baseball, but it's not. Not really, because no one has a piece of equipment that stays with them forever. But I was reading a piece about Joe Se, who is most famous. He's a Hall of Famer, but he's most famous for being just an extreme contact hitter. And like when Luisa Rise was, you know, relative to the league, he was like chasing Joe Se's greatest K percentage plus marks. It's just, it's unbelievable when you look back, even era adjusted, he just made contact with everything thing. And maybe by virtue of making such great clean contact forever, he had one bat that he used for his entire career which I think is so, so cool. I know you wouldn't think that it would be, but what was it made out of?
- [49:30]
Tim Britton
Would.
- [49:31]
Ben Lindbergh
But, but yeah, I mean, thank you.
- [49:35]
Tim Britton
What?
- [49:35]
Ben Lindbergh
No, I know you'll never, you'll never
- [49:38]
Meg Rowley
guess what kind of wood was it like? Special.
- [49:42]
Ben Lindbergh
So he had, it was called Black Betsy and he, he named it that because that was what Shoeless Joe Jackson liked to call his number one bat. And Sewell came from Alabama and Shoeless Joe is from the South. And so it was a, it was a Ty Cobb model bat. I don't know know which what it was, but it was, it was a big bad as bats were in those days. And Sewell was like, you know, five, six and a half was his listed height but it was a 35 inch 40 ounce bat, you know, so maybe that was part of why it was indestructible seemingly. But he was using it for his whole career. He retired after 14 seasons and he was still at least sporadically using that bat because Taika Cobb gave him that bat. And, or, or yeah, like Ty Cobb gave it to George Burns on the Cleveland team. George Burns was using it. One of the George Burns's who was playing at that time on the 1920 team. And then Sewell came up and joined the team in September and Burns gave Sewell one of his Cobb model bats and that became Black Betsy. And he used it throughout his career and sometimes he'd use other bats and, and if it was hot out maybe he would use merely 36 ounce model. But he used it every season of his career. And he said long after his career in 1983, he said, I figure I got more than 1000 hits from Black Betsy and he got about 2200 total career hits. And he, he cared for it. He. He boned that bat. Jeff and I talked about the practice of bat boning back in the day. So he boned that bat with a coke bottle.
- [51:26]
Spencer Nussbaum
Bottle.
- [51:27]
Ben Lindbergh
He seasoned it with tobacco juice. And so it's very stained and it was not actually a black bat but it was dark because of all the, the boning and the juice I suppose. But, but. And he did hit the ball hard, you might think. Well, it was because he was just like a slap hitter and he was just, you know, going for contact but not power. But no, he, he hit for pretty solid power actually, especially for someone his size in his area era. So maybe it was a fluke, maybe it was a product of the times, maybe it was that he Just made such incredibly clean contact that he just like never hit it off the handle or anything. I don't know. Or maybe it was the boning and the seasoning, I don't know. But, but I think that's super cool and I wish that we had that more often. I, I wish that we could have career long relics and memorabilia where it wasn't just, oh, here's the jersey he wore on this one day. Or like even here's a glove that he used for a while or here's the cap that, because everything gets worn and used and replaced and some stuff lasts for a while. But you know, especially these days when players like, they all have sponsorships and equipment partnerships and lots of money and they don't ever have to just wear down some piece of old equipment. They can constantly be. And of course with a glove you have to break it in, but then it gets broken down at a certain point and no bats break.
- [52:54]
Meg Rowley
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:56]
Ben Lindbergh
And why would you ever just stick with the same, whatever batting glove cap? I mean these things get dirty and gross. So I don't know why you would keep it. But if someone had this miraculous ability, I think it's just the coolest thing to say, like, yeah, here's the bat he used his entire career. Not just that one game or that one memorable moment, but, but like, yeah, this was with him the entire time. This was one of the secrets to his success. I wish there were a way we could bring that back. I don't know that it ever was the norm, but make it more of the norm. And I guess it would have to be like if you allowed some kind of composite bat that were much, much stronger or something and that would probably have other knock on effects because it would affect the batted ball quality. So it's more trouble than it's worth. I just wish there were a few more Joe Sewells in the game today and more black betsies, because that's awesome.
- [53:48]
Meg Rowley
Well, and you know, I, I have asked you before, like, how long does it take them to break in their cleats? Do they get, do they get while they're waiting for their.
- [53:59]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [53:59]
Meg Rowley
Cleats to break in. So I, I, I'm with you. I have questions, but I, I just think that, think about how often guys bats shattered.
- [54:09]
Ben Lindbergh
You know, less often than they used to because they've, they've been made more stable and less likely to splinter and impale someone. But that does still, still happen.
- [54:18]
Meg Rowley
They still crack.
- [54:19]
Ben Lindbergh
You know, they do, unfortunately.
- [54:21]
Meg Rowley
Do you want to hear more from Cal Raleigh. Okay, I hate that this is a thing. I really don't think it's a big deal. A big story. It shouldn't be a thing. I love Randy. I have all the respect for him and Team Mexico. I have a responsibility to my teammates and the country to be focused on locked in. And like I said, there's no harm or bad blood. There's nothing behind it. It doesn't matter who's on the other side.
- [54:43]
Ben Lindbergh
All right? You can focus and still shake someone's head.
- [54:45]
Meg Rowley
I think you can tell that they are desperate to they being the Mariners are desperate to quell this because of course, the initial tweet from Daniel Kramer was retweeted by Meritor pr. Yep, we get it. You all love each other. Give a little kiss and then we'll believe you. We gotta have a little kiss.
- [55:08]
Ben Lindbergh
Yes. Well, good luck downplaying it all anyway. Okay. Raymond chimes in that the the runs allowed per defensive out tiebreaker in the WBC is definitely a case of creating perverse incentives. If it came to it, Korea could have intentionally let Australia tie and then try to hold them scoreless for 40 extra innings to lower their average. So, yeah, I guess, I guess maybe so. But I don't know that anyone's going to explore those edge cases. But let's take a brief break and then we will talk about a team that is responsible for more than its fair share of strangeness and also activity this off season. The New York Mets with Tim Britton followed by the Nats with Spencer Nussbaum.
- [55:56]
Tim Britton
Riding the bus or going for a walk. Long strap on my head then listen people talk. I want to hear about baseball with new arms and puffy and stats. Yeah, yeah. Don't want to hear about pitcher wins
- [56:13]
Ben Lindbergh
or about gambling odds.
- [56:15]
Tim Britton
All they want to hear about my childhood and the texture of the hair omniscient are going out of one bag.
- [56:25]
Spencer Nussbaum
Gross.
- [56:25]
Tim Britton
Gross. Give me, give me, give me a Give me effectively wild. Give me, give me, give me effectively wild. This is effectively wild.
- [56:35]
Ben Lindbergh
Okay, let's talk about the New York Mets with a senior writer for the Athletic, Tim Britton who covers the Mets. And so how appropriate it is that he is with us for this segment. Hello, Tim.
- [56:47]
Tim Britton
Hi Ben.
- [56:47]
Ben Lindbergh
How are you doing? Well and we have a lot of Mets news to talk about. Very eventful off season, high turnover rate roster. And so I will lead with how many eggs did Ryan Lambert consume today? Because I think that's foremost on the minds of effectively wild listeners. Just.
- [57:04]
Meg Rowley
And were they cooked?
- [57:06]
Ben Lindbergh
Were they cooked? Share Whatever you care to about Ryan Lambert the person, Ryan Lambert the gourmand, whatever you have have learned about Lambert this spring.
- [57:16]
Tim Britton
You know, sometimes as a reporter it's, it's frustrating that you're not allowed in the food room and that, you know, players take their time eating and you don't get to see them interact in kind of a natural way. And then other times you read your, your fellow Mets writer Anthony Decomo write about Ryan Lambert and his egg consumption. You think maybe it's a good thing that the kitchen is off limits for us, that we don't get to see what actually goes on in there.
- [57:40]
Ben Lindbergh
Even if you hadn't seen him eat, did this track for you? Were you surprised when you read the story or were you thinking, yeah, that that checks out?
- [57:48]
Tim Britton
I mean I, I think in, in so much as you could not be surprised by someone consuming that many raw eggs on a daily basis. Like if you had asked me who among the 70 plus players the Mets had in, in big league spring training to begin this spring would have been that guy, I, I probably would have landed on Lambert pretty quickly.
- [58:07]
Ben Lindbergh
Okay, but he has not rebuked you personally for your use of creamer or anything like that?
- [58:12]
Tim Britton
No, no. You know, I have not heard any nutritional tips from him on my eating habits because fortunately players are also not privy to that for. From our perspective. So they don't know how poorly we eat, especially in spring training.
- [58:25]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, he and I might be able to bond over this egg thing, but. But he's a bit extreme even by my standards. So quantity at least, but not the preparation perhaps. Okay, we can talk about actual major Mets news that people might want to hear about. Where do we even start with this team? I guess maybe one just high level look we could kind of start with. Is, was this the plan either just this amount of turnover or the shape that it took, the particular moves? Of course a lot of it was contingent on, okay, if we don't get Kyle Tucker, then maybe we get Boba Shed. And you can't plan all of that beforehand. But when they started tinkering and then wholesale remodeling this roster, whether it was, you know, with the Nimmo trade, Semian at the start of the offseason, did they envision how all of this was going to go down or did it take them by surprise sometimes as much as it did those of us following from afar?
- [59:21]
Tim Britton
Yeah, I don't think the specifics of it were necessarily in their mind at the start of the off season. I think, you know, at the end of last season, you know, the idea that Pete Alonso would be somewhere else, that, that made a lot of sense to a lot of people. The idea that Jeff McNeil might be moved and for not a big major league level return made sense. You know, Diaz, you could see, was not necessarily the type of player that David Stearns would invest a whole lot in, but that you could, you probably predicted that was likelier he would come back than not. And the surprising thing was the ability to trade Brandon Nimmo. I think the, it wasn't surprising that the Mets were willing to move Nimmo, but I don't know that anyone thought they'd be able to find a taker for him, even with them bringing on, you know, Marcus Semian, who is coming off a down season, is older than Nimmo, also has three relatively expensive years left on his deal as opposed to Nimmo's five. So I think there's, there is some narrative thought that the Mets went in and said, like, we have to blow up this position player group. We need to get rid of all of these guys. In essence, it was kind of individual decisions that all made sense and happened to, to create this larger picture. And it started with like just understanding that Nim had some value on the market, that they could move him now rather than get locked into kind of a decline phase that it seemed like he was going to start pretty soon,
- [60:40]
Meg Rowley
like red paperclipping their way to an entirely new infield and. Well, not entirely new. Lindor remains and maybe we can start with him. Actually. What is the current state of Lindor, given the injury and when do you expect him back on the field?
- [60:55]
Tim Britton
They have been steadfast in their optimism that he will be ready for opening day. He, he's, they say his recovery is going as, as planned. He's started hitting in the, in the batting cages. We don't get to see that in spring, but we've seen him on the field taking some ground balls. He's been part of the defensive drills the entirety of spring training. Now he's actually participating in them rather than just kind of being a bystander. You know, they've been very confident ever since he had that surgery right at the start of spring training that it would be kind of six weeks. I think it was 43 days between the surgery and opening day. And whereas some other team teams kind of ruled out, you know, the Orioles basically said Jackson Holiday would not be ready for opening day when he had surgery right around the same time. The Mets believe Lindor will be there. You know, David Stern said earlier this week that he would, he will have to play in a game of some sort in spring training. His first game action this year will not be against Paul Skeens on opening day, which is probably a good idea. And so it, you know, maybe it's a Grapefruit League game that, that last week, uh, maybe it's backfield action in a minor league game where he can get, you know, an at bat every inning, something like that. When I talked to Lindor, I said like, is there a number of at bats you like to get? I mean, he usually gets 50 in the spring training, 50 or so. And he said it's really more about feel. And that can, that might take 50 at bats, other times it could take five. And he thinks he's able to get to that point even if it is just on the backfield. So they, they're still confident that come March 26, when Skeens is on the mountain Citi Field, that, that, that Francisco Lindor will be the first batter to face him.
- [62:20]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, Lindor, with what, five seasons under his belt with this team, must be one of the longest tenured Mets at this point. And after the departures of Alonzo and McNeil and Nimmo and Diaz, must be a bit of a different vibe in camp this spring. So are there icebreakers, are there name tags? I guess everyone has a jersey and numbers and names and your info's at your locker, so maybe you don't actually need name tags. But has there been been a getting to know you feel at camp this year? Is it discernibly different in any way?
- [62:52]
Tim Britton
I think really more so than the, the player personnel. It's been getting to know the coaching staff for the players because while Carlos Mendoza is still here, the Mets have two new hitting coaches and a director of major league hitting who had previously worked in their minor league system. And Jeff Albert. They have a new pitching coach, they have a new bench coach, Kai Correa, who is running third defensive of drills. A new third base coach, a new first base coach like it is. I think Jose Rosado as the bullpen coach is the only coach who's a holdover in the same position as he was last year. So that's been probably the, you know, guys are relatively familiar with other players in the league. It probably takes a little bit more time to get to know a coach at this point in the season. But the, the vibe in camp, I mean, it's been really since the Lindor injury. It's been relatively uneventful for them. They haven't had, had the kind of setbacks, especially in the pitching staff, that we've grown used to with the Mets. They've experienced at least one spring training injury every spring in the, in the starting rotation every year since 2020. They have not had one yet. But of course there are still 10 to 11 days to go, so.
- [63:55]
Ben Lindbergh
Dangerous words, Tim. Dangerous words. Yeah.
- [63:58]
Tim Britton
And I think the, the vibe has been relatively loose in the clubhouse. You know, they have a basketball hoop in their clubhouse. It was used a lot lot a couple years ago. It seemed to be used less last year and now Freddy Peralta is playing on it all the time and they've got some, some younger guys who have come up and joined Shawn Mania's chess club. So these are the types of stories you gravitate toward as a fan base when you have the kind of disappointing season the mets had in 2025 and, and try to read the tea leaves and say it's all going to be Kumbaya again the way it was in 24. I don't want to extrapolate that far, but it's, it's been a, a laid back, loose camp for them insofar as you could judge things at this point in the year.
- [64:33]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah.
- [64:33]
Ben Lindbergh
And two parter, does that turnover on the coaching staff say anything about Mendoza's job security coming off of the collapse last year? And then relatedly, is there any leadership void in the clubhouse with all of those high profile departures we just talked about or is this seen as. No, it's Lindor's team, it's Soto's team. It's some particular person's team to the extent that that's a real thing and not, not a media construction. I know that there was some talk of issues between Soto and Lindor last year that they have tried to put behind them this spring.
- [65:07]
Tim Britton
Yeah, first with Mendoza. I mean, he's also in the last guaranteed year of his contract. The Mets have a club option on him for 2027. When you come off of the kind of disappointing season that they had last year and Mendoza was upfront that he felt he didn't do the kind of job he should have done. He said that his communication wasn't where it needed to be and there were maybe times where he thought that the kind of laid back approach that had worked for him in 2024, the like we're going to be okay approach he took the first two months of 2024 when he ran that back in 2025, they weren't okay in the end, maybe he has to adjust that and tailor that to the specific personnel. So I think it's reasonable to wonder about his long term job security at this point in time. And in terms of the leadership in the clubhouse, you know, of those guys who, who left, Nimmo was probably the one who took on the largest mantle of leadership previously. You know, Alonzo was kind of the face of the franchise for a little bit, but was not necessarily the guy standing up in front of the room and addressing the team at various junctures. And, and Lindor is still a guy who does that. And, and still probably, you know, Steve Cohen said there will be no captain during his ownership. If they were voting for a captain, it would probably be Lindor. He's still that guy. But when my partner on the beat, Will Salmon and I were reporting out on whether there was this clubhouse issue last year or not at the end of last season. And one thing that, that we heard from, from people inside the organization was this idea that a team is just one guy's team. It's just not really realistic. It's, you know, the best teams kind of have leaders in every department of the team. You've got a starting pitcher who leads your group, you got a reliever who leads your group. You've got got a position player, maybe a catcher, like different guys in different spots that, that lead in their own way, in their own example. And so we'll see if that evolves for this team. You've got some veterans, veterans in addition to Lindor, you know, Marcus Semian is a guy who's been in the league for a long time and has a lot of clubhouse cachet. Boba Shet has been known as a pretty good clubhouse presence as well. And then you've got some young guys coming up who could take that on at some point. So it's an interesting, interesting dynamic in a group that obviously that, that clubhouse situation is something we're going to be paying extra close attention to this year. Coming off of two years where one in 2024, it was a really joyous group that really propelled them. In 2025, it was more of a, a neutral group that, that wasn't able to right the ship when things went wrong. So that, that will be an area of focus and I'm interested in seeing how that, how that group gels over the course of the season.
- [67:33]
Meg Rowley
Gonna have to re. Embrace grim. That was the secret glue holding it all together. You got new coaches, you got a bunch of New guys on the team, and everyone is playing a different position than they used to play. So Jorge Blanco's a first baseman now and Boba Shet's a third baseman. And you have, you know, Juan Soto shifting over to left. Talk to us about their sort of ideal defensive alignments and some of the thinking that's gone into how to best prepare these guys. Because, you know, Jorge Polanco is a second baseman. He can probably play first base, but this is a lot of change all at once on top of it being a bunch of new personnel. So talk to us about the. The defensive piece of it.
- [68:11]
Tim Britton
Yeah, well, the Mets did. I think they tried out basically the line in the offseason that, that our infield is for shortstops because all those guys came up as shortstops and pleaded in the major leagues. And the general thought is like, well, isn't every major league infielder a shortstop at some point in their career? Like Mark Vientos was drafted as a shortstop.
- [68:29]
Spencer Nussbaum
Stop.
- [68:29]
Tim Britton
Bichette's shift from short to third, they aren't too concerned about. They know they did initially look at him. You know, their initial contact with him in the off season was for him to play second base for them. And I think most people expected that no matter where Bichette signed, he was probably going to be playing second base or third, you know, pretty soon, if not right away in 2026. So they're not too concerned about that shift. They think that he's got the tools that his, the range. That was maybe the issue at shortstop. It will not be a problem at third base. Could actually be above average there and that his, that his arm is in fact strong enough to play that position. Polanco at first, it's been a little bit slower in spring training. He hasn't been in as many games as Bichette because the Mets have been careful with his history of knee issues. And they've been, they've been upfront that this is not. Jorge Plonko is not going to be starting 155 games for them at first base. He's going to be playing. He's going to be in the DH slot a fair amount of time. Time. Last year, I think a majority of his starts in Seattle came as the dh. So they also have Vientos at first base, a guy who has a moderate amount of experience there, especially compared to his teammates. And then Brett Beatty, who played third for them last year, is learning first base as well in spring training. So they've had a lot of work on first base fundamentals, as we all know from a famous movie, first base, totally easy position to learn. You don't have to adjust it all. All that's been another thing you're watching a lot of in spring and, and to this point there haven't been any glaring issues. No one's dropping routine throws to first base. No one's lost on pop ups or anything like that. But we'll see how that evolves over the course of the season. And in the outfield, you know, Soto has played left before. I don't think they're, they're worried too much about that. Adding Luis Robert in center gives them a plus defender there. They think that they're up the middle defense with Lindor center mean Robert and even the strides that, that Francisco Alvarez made defensively behind the plate in the second half of last year is in a much better place than where it was last year and that the corners should be, you know, the corners were pretty bad for them last year that the corners can be improved as well, even if they're not elite league wide.
- [70:31]
Ben Lindbergh
Did the Mets think that they came close to signing Tucker? It seemed like they were offering a similar structure, but was it a matter of being outbid by the Dodgers or just the Dodgers having a more compelling pitch? Because the Mets are still trying, trying to remake themselves into Dodgers east and the Dodgers are already the Dodgers.
- [70:52]
Tim Britton
I think they felt they were competitive for him. I don't know that there was ever a time where they thought like we're actually going to get this guy. Because even talking to people inside the organization, you know, that week when it was pretty clear that Tucker was going to make his decision, they were not sounding that optimistic about it, to be fair, that they didn't sound that optimistic about landing Juan Soto in the same kind of time frame frame the year before. And they did get Soto. So I think the speed at which they were able to pivot back to bichette someone who they had stayed in contact with in a way that, that I know I did not realize over the course of the offseason. I don't think many reporters realized over the course of the offseason how surprising that was, that they were ready to move elsewhere if Tucker did ultimately make the decision to go to LA for a deal that was more than the Mets had offered and you know, maybe fits what Tucker was looking for, not just in terms of a team that that's winning, but a team that he doesn't have to be the guy and isn't looked at as the guy or one of the main guys coming in even at the start of the season,
- [71:48]
Meg Rowley
well, he won't be playing right field. So who will be? This is your opportunity to tell us if Carson Bengie is going to make the opening day roster.
- [71:59]
Tim Britton
It will be interesting. This is the Mets first position, real position battle since 2019 when Pete Alonso won the first base jet job over, get this Todd Frazier who was injured that spring. You know, Benj has, has had a really good spring. He's their first round pick from 2024 out of Oklahoma State. Left handed batter, really smooth swing, goes the other way really well and with some authority. You know, his swing really evolved over the course of last season and he showed kind of a, a quickness to adapt at at various levels. Didn't look great in the final two weeks in aaa. But even if you break that down on like a week by week basis, it was basically like an OFER in the first week and a.300 average the second week. So they think he's got the ability to handle the pressure in the New York market and to handle major league pitching, but they also want to rush him. It's two and a half weeks in aaa. Mike Tauchman is a guy they signed to a minor league deal pretty late in the offseason, really just before spring training. And it's kind of more of a known quantity. A guy who's going to give you 720ish OPS, probably competent defense in the corner outfield, can, can also play some center. So if they want to, you know, if they want to kind of keep the seat warm for Benj, Tachman would make sense. But Ben just had a really nice spring. He's hitting over.350 in the spring. You know how much you care about surface level spring statistics, I.e. your mileage may vary on that but you know, has, has done everything that they laid out before the start of camp. You know, what do you need to see from him? He's, he's been doing all those things which is looking competitive in his at bats, handling everything in the outfield, showing some speed on the bases, giving them kind of a different look at the bottom part of their lineup than, than they've had in, in years past. So with, with 10 days to go, I think it's still up in the air. I think it'd be, be hard to send him down at this point the way he's played. But they've done that in the past with other guys so it's, it's kind of tough to Get a read on it at this point, but I know who fans want to see, and that. That's Carson bench in right field.
- [73:52]
Spencer Nussbaum
Benj.
- [73:53]
Meg Rowley
Benj. Not Benjamin. Benji.
- [73:55]
Ben Lindbergh
Benj.
- [73:55]
Meg Rowley
I'm gonna get it right eventually.
- [73:58]
Tim Britton
The problem is Benji is the nickname for him, obviously, so you're both.
- [74:01]
Meg Rowley
Get out of town. So. So really, I'm just being overly familiar. I'm not mispronouncing his name. Okay, well, that. I think that's worse, actually. I'd rather say it wrong than be overly familiar. Benj.
- [74:13]
Ben Lindbergh
Francisco Alvarez has tantalizing talent, and he looked every bit the superstar that it seemed like he could turn into down the stretch last season after his. His promotion following the demotion. He was one of the best hitters and players in baseball down the stretch. So all he has to do is just keep hitting like that all year, easy. So can he do that or something akin to it?
- [74:37]
Tim Britton
I mean, he certainly looks that way in spring training. He's hit. He's been hitting the ball really hard. A lot of 105s off the bat.
- [74:44]
Ben Lindbergh
He.
- [74:44]
Tim Britton
He homered on Tuesday again over the batter's eye at Clover Park. So everything. You know, the. The issue he had last year was he went through a swing change between 2024 and 2025, one that. That he really wanted to do himself. He had talked about it with J.D. martinez and. And how many, like, success stories in baseball have started with this guy. Talked to JD Martinez or JD Martinez's hitting coaches about an overhaul, and it. But it just didn't work out for Alvarez in part because, you know, he was where Lynn. You know, he last spring had the hamade injury. Injury that Lindor is. Is enduring this this spring. And so he didn't get kind of the spring training to work through those swing changes against live pitching. So he gets into games in late April in the. In the regular season, and, you know, just did not have the power that we were used to seeing from him. Looked kind of in between on a lot of swings. And so when he went down to AAA at the end of June, it was basically not to overhaul the swing back, but to find like, a middle ground between his prior swing and the swing he was trying to get to. And he was able to do that over a couple of weeks in aaa. He had a ton of home runs there. And then when he came back to the majors, looked probably the. It was probably the best prolonged stretch of. Of play we've seen from him in the major leagues. Guy who had 25 home runs as a rookie and then only hit 11 the second year and forget what he ended up with last year, some somewhere around 10 or 11, but you know, when he was sent down, had only three for the season. So if it all goes according to plan, if he's able to stay healthy as well, because he's run into a of lot, lot of hand issues running the bases or behind the plate as a catcher, if he's able to stay healthy and play, you know, 100, 110 games behind there can hit 25 home runs for you, that, that changes the look of their lineup. Again, that's. That's a guy who can hit fifth for you, maybe rather than seventh or eighth.
- [76:30]
Meg Rowley
What is the team's plan to sort of help Luis Robert Jr get back on track? Because we all remember how sort of spectacular he was in 2021 season. Even better from a war perspective in 2023. And then it has been two years of injury and mediocrity at the plate and sort of diminishing returns in the outfield. So what is their approach to getting him back on track? How much of it do they just attribute to bad health and how do you think the change of scenery is going to benefit him?
- [76:59]
Tim Britton
They attribute a lot of it to bad health. Their first step one after they acquired to him was kind of working on his lower half. They've said, you know, most of the injuries that injury issues that he's had have been below the waist. And so they think kind of strengthening that area for him will allow him to stay healthier for longer. I also think, you know, this is the Mets last year had a bunch of guys that they ran out there every day that, you know, Alonso and Nimmo and Lindor and Soto were basically in the lineup like 158 of the 162 guys games. Robert is not going to be that type of player for them. I think they're. They're targeting more like if he's fully healthy, he's going to play 135 or 140 games. For them to be proactive about keeping him healthy through the season, even in spring training, like he has not played in a Grapefruit League game yet. The plan is for him to get in there later this week, but he's been playing just every other day in minor league games looking really good. But again, I don't know how much you want to take away from looking really good in backfield minor league games, games at spring training. So they're really encouraged by what they've seen so far. They think they're getting his swing back to the spot it was in, in 2023 when he was his best self. But for him really, the, the floor is being a good plus defender in center field. If they can get offense, you know, the kind of offense he delivered even last year, just against left handed pitching, if they get that, that, that's really good for their lineup. And if he's anything close to what he was during his best year years, that's, that's just kind of icing from their perspective.
- [78:26]
Ben Lindbergh
All right, take us through a few of the mid-20s homegrown guys who are around here and, and it's kind of unclear how and where they fit in with all the moving parts that we've seen. Speaking of Mark Vientos, Brett Beatty and Ronnie Mauricio, what will their roles be?
- [78:44]
Tim Britton
We'll start with Beatty because he's the one who had the best season last year, really was good in the second half of the season. I think he was second on the team in ops after the all star break. To Soto, you know, he played third base last year, a little bit of second base this year. The plan is really, you know, I mentioned Polanco was going to see some DH time. When Polanco is DHing, especially against right handed pitching, I would expect Beatty to be in there at first base. He is technically still an option in right field. He's learning that position as well. He's played out there a couple of times in the spring. It has looked fine. You know, he's. When he learned second base on the fly last year, that kind of gave the Mets confidence that he could, he could learn a couple different positions on the fly. And so they're trying that at first and in right field. The idea is basically while he might not play the same position every day, that he should still be able to get 450 or 500 at bats without much problem. And then, you know, if, if anyone gets hurt on that infield, if Bichette goes down, if Semian goes down, if Polanco goes down, then Beatty is kind of the, the ready made replacement for those guys. Vientos should make the team. He doesn't have any options remaining and would be kind of the, the other part of a platoon at DH with Beatty, you know, maybe if it's a lefty on the mound, you get Vientos either at DH or at first base. So there's and the chance to grow into that role. Remember, Viento's hit 27 home runs in 20, 24, six more in the postseason looked every bit like the start of a. A middle of the order bat for them for years to come before regressing last season. He too had a nice little bump in the second half of last year, though it was not quite to the level that Alvarez's was and he slumped again at the very end of the season. But someone they're not ready to give up on just yet. And then Mauricio was in the majors for a long stretch of last season. They basically carried him the final month plus of the season to preserve his minor league option for this year. He didn't play very much the last six weeks of the year. He looked really good against right handed pitching as a left handed batter. Did not look good against left handed pitching from the right side side of the plate. So my guess is he starts the year in AAA just getting more seasoning. You know, a guy who came up at the end of 23, showed some elite exit velocity, some really nice tools towards ACL and missed all of 24. And then last year was kind of just working his way back. So I think getting him regular playing time after the year he had last year would be really important.
- [80:55]
Meg Rowley
I guess we can talk about the pitching now and you know, we should, we should talk a lot about their homegrown guys because they, I think that's so exciting. But we should maybe begin with a Freddie Peralta trade. How did this come together? What did they see in Peralta that made them so excited? And you know what, what chances do you think there are that they're able to get a further extension done with him? Because obviously he might have a bit of familiarity with the guy in charge.
- [81:21]
Tim Britton
It's been acquired by David Stearns twice already been extended by David Stearns.
- [81:25]
Meg Rowley
Right.
- [81:25]
Tim Britton
Although I think this one will probably be more than the, what, 15 million over five years that the last one was, might command?
- [81:31]
Meg Rowley
A bit more than that.
- [81:32]
Tim Britton
Yes. No. What they like in Peralta. You know, kind of canvassing the market for starting pitching this offseason, they didn't want to go all in on a guy like Franber Valdez or Dylan Cease or Ranger Suarez. They didn't think those guys were necessarily real number one starters for them in 2026. And you can maybe argue Peralta doesn't quite fit that bill either as kind of like the, the top line opening day starter, but they thought that he was a guy who fit this rotation really well to kind of bump everyone down a slot. You know, it's a lot easier for that for you to imagine Kodai Senga or Shamaniah having a good season when you're not counting on them to be like your Game one postseason starter kind of the way they were last year. You know those guys. Senga got signing votes in 23. Manaya was essentially their best starter in the postseason in 24. So they can get there, but they're, you know, you don't want to count on that. You want that to be more of a bonus. So with Peralta at the top, you know, guys made 30 starts each of the last three years. Stearns knows him well from Milwaukee and knew in a way that I didn't for sure that the personality would really fit in the clubhouse. A guy who really wanted to play in New York. You don't always hear that with players moving from a smaller market to a bigger market. Peralta has a lot of family in New York City, so he's been very excited about being in New York and you see that on a daily basis, even in spring training and has looked good so far in spring. All caveats aside, you know, they think he kind of makes the rotation whole where you have him at the top as a reliable option. You've got Mariah and Senga as the veterans who've got some, some upside. You've got Nolan McLean who, you know, starting for Team USA in the WBC, made eight phenomenal starts for them down the stretch last season. Season and looked every, you know, sometimes a guy makes eight starts and has a two ERA and it seems a little fluky. Didn't really with Mlan that the stuff. You don't have to explain what makes Nolan McLean good. When you're watching him, you kind of see it with the way his stuff moves. So they're really excited about his potential, you know, right away in 2026. This isn't like he's going to grow into being a frontline starter. They think he can be pretty close to that pretty early this season. And then you've got David Peterson and Clay Holmes kind of filling in as well. Guys who look better again as mid rotation starters instead of top of the rotation guys.
- [83:47]
Ben Lindbergh
What was going on with Senga late last year? He got demoted. He didn't pitch well post demotion. What was he working on this offseason or what is he working on now?
- [83:57]
Tim Britton
The season was interrupted by the injury he had covering first base, the hamstring injury. Even before the injury, he didn't feel like his mechanics were where they needed to be. And Senga has been very Meticulous with his mechanics. He's pretty candid about where they are or not at any given point. So even when he had basically a 15 era in June, he was disappointed with how he was feeling on a regular basis on the mound. He owed that. He attributed that to kind of the injury he had in 2024 with the shoulder at the start of the season. Coming back from that, having a calf injury that he never felt right even down the stretch of that season and wasn't able to find it in 2025. He feels really good about where they are now. He spent some time at TREAD in North Carolina in the off season and you know, has come out in spring training throwing 98, which he did not do at any point in the last two years. He's really happy with where he is with his mechanics. He thinks that, you know, if they, if he's able to maintain them where they are now, he's able to get to that upper echelon. Velocity makes everything play up, allows him to repeat his delivery more, spot his pitches better, and then he can be the pitcher he wants. Was for most of 2023 when he was their best starter. So, you know, his first start in, in the spring he looked really sharp even though he gave up a couple of of solo home runs. But they're, they're really encouraged by what they've seen from him so far and think he can be closer to the. The best version of himself as well.
- [85:18]
Meg Rowley
For the last couple of years, we've seen a lot of relievers try to make the jump back into the rotation and to varying degrees of success. I think we would probably call Clay Hon Holmes return to the rotation a success. You saw a predictable decline in some of his stats. He struck out fewer guys. His velo dipped a bit. You saw the ERA and the other peripherals move in the wrong direction, but they were still good. And he threw 165innings, which I'm sure was a big help to the Mets. So what is his plan and what are his goals for year two of being a starter? Because. Because there's room to improve, but also to in season, it's not so bad.
- [85:58]
Tim Britton
Yeah, I mean, I think if you had told him at the start of last year that Holmes would qualify for the era title with like a 35 or 3 6, whatever it ended up being, they would have been ecstatic about that. You know, he made every start, was their opening day starter last year and you know, while he didn't pitch as deep into games as here, they would have liked on a consistent basis. The end results were pretty good. He's talked in this play spring about how much of a touch and go process it was for him last year that, you know, every few starts he's kind of reevaluating how his mix was working, what he wanted to do with different pitches. You know, he was incorporating a lot of guys incorporate one new pitch during a season. He was incorporating three basically this time last year while doing a role change. So it was a lot on his plate this year it's been a little bit simpler for him that he just kind of wants to refine how he used to uses his mix. He thought he got away from his sinker, you know, his go to pitch as a reliever. He thought he got away from it a little bit too often last year, especially in the middle of the season when he struggled more. So he thinks, you know, just knowing his strengths better and how they play as a starter, which is different than how they played as a reliever, but might be the same strengths can help him, you know, if not just, you know, replicate what he did last year and maybe improve on it a little bit more. Especially like peripherally striking out more guys, guys maybe pitching deeper into games on a more consistent basis.
- [87:16]
Ben Lindbergh
And if you have not jinxed the health of the rotation and they actually do break camp with everyone not broken, then are we looking at a six man rotation to start the season potentially or, or how does that shake out? Or when anyone, whether Sean Mania or someone else entirely gets hurt eventually, then will we see Joe Natang be the next man up? How will that shake out?
- [87:38]
Tim Britton
Yeah, you know, whenever I ask this of people with the Mets, they, they give me that look that's like why would you even suggest that we would get there at this point in the spring? I do. Everything points to if those six are healthy, that they will, they will go with a six man rotation. They had opportunities in the off season to move someone from that established group and they decided they didn't want to do that. They, they preferred having the depth at the major league level and you know, and whether they, you know, with, with off days early in the season, season, it might be tougher to run a true six man. Whether they use piggybacking or tandem starters in any way that's on the table is all I've heard. I don't know that they'll commit to it, but they did do that a little bit at the end of last season. You know, Holmes and Maniah were tandem starters for a couple of times through the rotation late last year when they were trying to figure things out. So I do think they'll, they'll go with six if someone, someone does get hurt. Tobias Meyers is probably first in line. Myers would be in the bullpen. Otherwise it's kind of a multi inning guy. But the other part of the Peralta trade, they really like having a guy who can do a bit of both. Can give him two innings out of a bullpen and even in some, some higher leverage spots and then slide into the rotation if they need him. But you mentioned Tong he was just optioned to AAA for the spring training portion of the year and we'll start there, we'll likely start in aaa but a guy who probably pitched a little bit better than the 7 era suggests at the major league level last year there were one start in particular against Texas where he got got roughed up in one inning got away from him based on some, some light contact. So I think he still feels pretty confident the Mets feel pretty confident that the stuff is good enough at the major league level for him to be at least a mid rotation starter. This was a guy who was as good as anyone in the minor leagues last year. So they still like the impact he's going to have at some point this year. And then the kind of overlooked guy is Christian Scott who was their top pitching prospect going into 2020, 2024. Scott came up, made nine starts that year, looked pretty good. You know I think it was a four and a half ERA strikeout numbers fluctuated but then had Tommy John surgery. He's back. Look, looks like he's in even better shape. Has spent some time refining his mix as well, throwing a kick change. So a 2025 spring training storyline redux for the Mets and they think he's going to be another guy who plays a role for them this year year in the starting rotation down the line.
- [89:58]
Ben Lindbergh
So in addition to having previously lured former Yankees closer Clay Holmes across town, the Mets have now imported the 2025 Yankees back of the bullpen to be the 2026 Mets back of the bullpen. How do you think that's going to go and how much do they like Devin Williams as an Edwin Diaz substitute?
- [90:18]
Tim Britton
You know I'm trying to think of the last person the Yankees employed as a closer who is not on the current that's Ross. It might, it might, I mean it might be Rafael Soriano at this point. I think, you know, both Williams and Weaver were guys whose peripheral stats suggested they had better 20, 25 seasons than they did than that the ERA said. You know, the Mets believed Williams just kind of got off to a rough start and after that was, was pretty good the last five months of the year for the Yankees again. Stearns has familiarity with him going back to Milwaukee so they, they think, you know, he's kind of gone through the difficult transition to New York that some players go through. He just did it across town and now gets to the Mets get to reap the benefits of that. You know, that there's a reason they signed him even before they knew what was going to happen with Edwin Diaz because they really liked him. They thought the, the price point was good for him and they had to jump on that. When they did and when Diaz went elsewhere, they had kind of the ready made replacement for him with Weaver again, a guy who, you know, had a couple outings go south for him down the last 6ish weeks of the season that probably made the era and the surface level numbers look, look bad. But he's worked a lot on, on a cutter getting that back where he wants it to be this spring. And a guy that they think, you know again can pitch in a couple different roles for them, can go more than three outs if they need, but probably is going to be the primary setup man alongside Brooks Raley and when he comes back healthy, probably in May, AJ Minter, whose loss last year was one that they really highlighted as being impactful for them in the pitching staff.
- [91:48]
Meg Rowley
This strikes me as a group that's pretty well formed. But if any of them underperform. Are there guys in the high minors who strike you as likely bullpen candidates we might see this year?
- [91:57]
Tim Britton
I mean you can start with, with
- [91:59]
Ben Lindbergh
Ryan Lambert, you know, don't take him on. Tim.
- [92:03]
Meg Rowley
Oh no, Ben. Terrible.
- [92:07]
Tim Britton
God. A guy, I mean he throws 100. It's not just that he throws 100, it's that he throws it with an induced vertical break of like 19 inches, which is accommodation that is extremely rare. Basically the only guys last year in the majors who threw as hard as Lambert with that kind of carry are Trevor McGill and Jeremiah Estrada, guys who had really nice relief seasons. So you can see kind of the tools being there if he is able to find the strike zone, which has been more of a concern for him,
- [92:35]
Ben Lindbergh
induced vertical break is when he, he cracks open the shell before downing Yoke white and all. Okay, continue.
- [92:42]
Tim Britton
Dylan Ross is a guy they brought up right at the end of last season. Spent two days in the major leagues but did not appear in a game, but they think, you know, he could eventually play the kind of role that like Ryan Sanic did for them the last couple of years. He's got similar stuff to stanic with a high 90s fastball and splitter. Those are, are two guys off the top of my head. And actually Adbert Al La, the former Cubs closer is in camp. He's not on the 40 man roster, but a guy they signed ahead of last season, ahead of 2025 because he had had Tommy John the previous year to kind of do the rehab with them. He got into some winter ball games at the very end of last year. Has been had kind of a normal offseason, been a full participant in camp. Probably not likely to break camp with the team, but someone who down the line over the course of the season is likely to play a role at the major league level.
- [93:27]
Ben Lindbergh
And of course it makes your pitching look a bit better if your defense is good, which was one of their goals going into this winter. But given how this winter went and all the players who are playing out of their previous positions at least is there a realistic chance that this is a good defensive team after being a below average one last year?
- [93:46]
Tim Britton
I think it's reasonable to expect them to be average to slightly above average. You know, again, like they did bring in in Semian and Robert, two above average defenders at positions where that really helps. You know, I think regardless of who's playing first base most of the time time, they think that person can probably be better than Alonzo was last year. You know, Alonzo was not as, you know, last year was his worst defensive season by a fair margin. So they think that really, even if they were bringing him back, they would expect him to be better than he was last year. But they think that Polanco slash, Beatty slash, Vientos can, can be better than they got out of first base last year. They think Soto should be, should be better than he was last year. Kind of irrespective of the switch across the, the, the outfield. They think they've located some things that can help him get better jumps on balls. And even like Lindor, you know, last year was as bad a defensive season as he's had in a while. It's not like he had more errors. It just seemed like they were mistimed or, or that those errors cost them a bit more often. So they think he should be better as well up the middle. So, you know, throw that all together, you're probably not looking at a top five defensive outfit. It's not Probably a team like Milwaukee, Milwaukee was last year, or the Cubs, where the defense is a real strength, but if it's no longer the kind of weakness it was, especially the last couple months of last year, that's still a positive development for them.
- [95:02]
Meg Rowley
We've talked about how they aspire to be sort of Dodgers East. They are second in baseball from a payroll perspective behind only those Dodgers. I'm curious sort of what the outer bounds of Steve Cohen's appetite to spend might be because this is a good team team, really terrific rotation. They're good at pitching development. Now they got all of these new guys, they're playing new positions, but you know, they have to compete in a difficult league and they compete in a difficult division. If they find themselves in a position at the deadline where they need to take on salary to get a deal done to help them push ahead, do you think that there's appetite for that?
- [95:41]
Tim Britton
Probably. Their, their payroll has been in the same general area the last few years. But you go back to, what was it, 2023 when they, they looked like they were signing Carlos Correa and we're going to blow past anything, anywhere anyone had been before. So Cohen for the right move, for the move he thinks is going to be the difference has shown that he will pay in the past. So I would expect that moving forward, you know, we'll, we'll see, I think next off season, depending on where we are from a labor perspective, it'll be interesting to see kind of how aggressive, aggressive they pursue someone like Tarek Skubel, whether, whether they go all out for him in a way that they haven't for another, for a pitcher since losing out on Yamamoto to the Dodgers. They understand that it takes a lot of money to compete, especially when the Dodgers are in your, in your league. But also they feel pretty good about where they are as a farm system and the relative cost control they're going to have at some positions coming up. You know, if Benj takes over in right field this year here, if you've got McLean and Tong in the rotation, even if Scott is, is part of that, then you've got cost controlled starters. If you start churning out kind of cost controlled pre arbor levers the way that Stearns is able to in Milwaukee, that changes how much you spend there. A.J. ewing is, is probably the next guy in the prospect pipeline that people are really excited about. Could be part of their outfield picture in 2027. You know, if you start dotting it around with, with, with impact talent from your farm system Becomes a little bit easier to sign Lon Soto to a 15 year contract and kind of have the select few stars you really spend on in free agency rather than having to spend so much on Frankie Montas and those kind of fill in players.
- [97:20]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, this is a fraught question when it comes to the Mets, but what would constitute success for this team this season over and above not having it finish the way that last year did?
- [97:30]
Tim Britton
Obviously the bare minimum is, is getting back to the postseason. I think if they, if they were to miss the postseason again, Carlos Mendoza's job would be in serious jeopardy. And I think you'd start to hear murmurs about David Stern's job. Steve Cohen waited a while to hire David Stearns. He'd been wanting him for several years before he was able to hire him. So I don't think it would be in too much trouble at the end of even another disappointing season. But, but he'd be moving closer to that cliched hot seat. So I think it starts there and you know, I think it would still register as a relative disappointment if they were not able to advance in the postseason. You know, I think this is a team that believes it should be in the top two to four of the National League, alongside la, alongside, you know, Atlanta, Philly, Chicago. That's the group they think they should be, should be with. And if they fall short of that group, I think it would register as a disappointment internally and of course, with the fan base.
- [98:19]
Ben Lindbergh
And what are the chances that Craig Kimbrough comes up and blows just enough games to keep them from making the playoffs, slash winning the defense division?
- [98:28]
Tim Britton
Are you suggesting he, he's another Atlanta Braves mole in the Mets organization? Some fans have not forgiven Tom Glavin for the final start of the 2007 season. We'll see. You know, Kimbrell, he's looked, he's looked okay in spring.
- [98:41]
Ben Lindbergh
Kimbrell's done it in enough places that I, I don't think it's specific to the Mets. It's more of a Kimbrell issue.
- [98:47]
Tim Britton
Yeah, well, we'll see how they, how they handle him coming out of spring. That, that is another one of the interesting roster decisions they have facing them in the next couple weeks.
- [98:54]
Ben Lindbergh
Yes, that is, that's a matter of some concern just given how many teams we've seen entrust Craig Kimbrel with high leverage roles. And how many teams have rud the day they did that. Well, we never rude the day that we invite Tim Britton on to talk Mets with us, nor do we ru it when we read his work at the Athletic, which we encourage everyone to do. Thank you as always, Tim.
- [99:17]
Tim Britton
Oh, thanks for having me on. I've. I've eaten several eggs during, during the,
- [99:20]
Ben Lindbergh
during this whole thing, and I couldn't even tell because you just, you downed them. You didn't even have to chew, just swallowed them and. Yeah, they go down easy that way. Or so I've heard. I don't know from personal experience. Let's take a quick break and then we will venture elsewhere in the NL east to talk to one of Tim's newest colleagues, Spencer Nussbaum, about the Washington Nationals.
- [99:43]
Tim Britton
The wacky hype hypotheticals are perfectively styled and their stat blast queries are detectively compiled. They're nonagerian baseball legends selectively dialed, but their spiciest takes are still respectfully Mild. More than 2,000 episodes retrospectively filed, and at each new one, we still collectively smile. That's effectively wild. That's effectively wild.
- [100:27]
Ben Lindbergh
All right, let's talk about the Washington Nationals with the Athletics brand new Nationals beat writer. So new that the packaging has not yet been removed. The byline has not yet been been broken in yet. Spencer Nussbaum, is this your first official interview as the athletic beat writer for the Washington Nationals?
- [100:45]
Spencer Nussbaum
Now that you bring it up, it is. And what's funny is I'm getting these messages multiple times a day that are asking when are you actually starting? So I guess this I should count as my. As my official start with the company.
- [100:59]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, I guess the actual answer is next week probably. Right. So you're. You're not quite on the clock yet, but you know what you're doing because you've been beat writing for some time formerly for the Washington Post, and we're here primarily to preview the Nationals, not to review you. But we did, of course, briefly lament the demise of the Washington Post sports section on this podcast and at greater length on my other show, hang up and Listen, where we talked to one of your former colleagues, Jesse Dougherty, and it's been nice to see see a lot of you catch on in new places. Prime among them maybe the Athletic, where several of you were brought on board. But take us through, I guess, the whirlwind of the last month or two of your life and your former colleagues lives. And I know that you may be limited in exactly what you can say. I don't want to jeopardize any severance or violate any NDAs or anything here, so tread as carefully as you need. But tell us a little bit while I'm sure you're super excited about your new job, about the old gig, because it was something that saddened a lot of us in sports media and sports readers in general.
- [102:12]
Spencer Nussbaum
I'd say, first and foremost, I'm sure that Jesse Dougherty explained this much more eloquently than I'm about to. But, yeah, no, it's been a weird, weird at times, depressing and in small moments, also uplifting sort of. Last month and a half, I think, when all this started to kind of come together and we started to hear about it, it did take you by surprise in the sense that we knew that at times things get downsized and contracted and whatnot. But I don't think any of us expected one of the major papers in the US in one of the major, major metropolitan regions in the US to get its sports section shuttered. So that was a surprise, I think, to all of us. What's been really uplifting over the last month is how many people have reached out, people that I've either never met before, maybe had a brief conversation with, who told me that their experience with the Washington Post was my same experience growing up reading the Boston Globe, which is every morning they'd open the paper and they'd see either my name or Andrew Drew Golden's name, and they'd read about the Nationals. That's something that I feel like when you're kind of in the thick of it, you don't always comprehend or you don't always think about. And so that was really uplifting to see, A, that and B, just how quickly a lot of us have been able to land on our feet after this. So, yeah, it's. It's been above all else, a tough month and a lot of people who should be employed right now are not. But you do kind of see a light at the end of the tunnel even. Even if you know what happened was obviously an atrocity.
- [103:45]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. And you mentioned Andrew. He caught on at the Baltimore Banner. He's now doing sports enterprise and features reporting. So not focusing specifically on the Nats anymore, but good to see you guys, former colleagues on the beat being back in action and many of your colleagues, and I hope that will be the case for anyone else who is still out there looking for work, because obviously a storied sports sector section and dismaying and somewhat infuriating circumstances surrounding its closure. But you will all go on to do excellent work in other places and at the Athletic, specifically in your case. So I guess we can get into the Washington Nationals, the team you're Covering. They are a young team at least. Well, really at all levels. You know, I guess there's not much of a distinction when it comes to front office field staff players. It's a youth movement. So tell us what you observed as far as changes in how the team has operated, moving from the Mike Rizzo era into the Po Bony era, as we have dubbed him on this podcast. How have things changed? How have things yet to change outside
- [104:56]
Spencer Nussbaum
of the 26 man roster? Everything has changed is honestly the way that I would put it. They've gone from being an outlier in one direction where again you had analytical minds and forward thinking people in the organization. But it really wasn't how everything was showing up on the field. It didn't have the same processes that other organizations will have. It was obviously one of the older coaching staffs, one of the older heads of front office. Now it's young everywhere and it's trying to catch up every single place they can. I'm sure we'll get a little bit more into this. Some of this will take time. Time. Obviously, when you're this young, both from a coaching staff perspective and from a team perspective, you're very moldable. But there's also a lot of room to grow. When I think about this team and where they were 12 months ago, it's a completely different operation, top to bottom. So, you know, will they be all that good next year? I think that remains to be seen. But they will definitely be different in a way that, that is really compelling when I'm, when I'm around the team
- [105:57]
Meg Rowley
every single day, top to bottom in a lot of important ways. Although the same in terms of ownership. And I'm curious sort of how much of a gating factor that remains for the progression of this organization. Obviously the Nationals have had recent success. I think sometimes we forget that they won the World Series in 2019 just because they didn't get to do an on field victory lap in 2020. But how much of a mandate to change do you think they will be able to to execute given some of the broader constraints that still exist for the franchise?
- [106:30]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah, I think it's absolutely something you have to think about. And there was a very good story in the now deceased Washington Post last year about ownership that I encourage everyone to check out. So it's definitely not the smoothest ownership operation in baseball. But what I will say is, and what I've heard early on talking to people around the organization is that they have had a lot more leeway way to operate like a New age organization than they have in the past. Now, does that mean that they can, you know, double their R and D staff right away or add 12 coaches at every development level and, you know, no, it doesn't. But it does mean that, you know, they've added at least a handful of coaches at every affiliate. They've brought in a lot of new people, a lot of new technology that previously either, you know, wasn't pushed for, wasn't approved is all of a sudden they there. It's a lot of things that you, you expect a new age organization to do and it's been approved by ownership so far. Again, I'm sure that if you gave truth serum to everyone in the organization, they would tell you like, hey, there are still areas where we'd love to have a little more money here, a little more money there. I'm sure if you talk to the players, obviously they would want to have added more veterans in the clubhouse. But no, it seems like ownership has been less of a constraint this year than in the past past. But I will always be wary on that front until they've proven, hey, we are spending like we were in 2018, 2019, both payroll wise and then also catching up to other organizations more on the, the infrastructure side.
- [108:00]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. So there were also some, some changes on the roster and, and they were also made with an eye toward even more youth and really restarting a rebuild perhaps. And Mackenzie Gore, the trade of Gore to Texas with was the headline move and that was not unexpected. Of course. It had been rumored for years that he might be dealt, but it was kind of a. Well, it was maybe depressing to Nationals fans on some level, even if they expected it, just because he was supposed to be one of the guys who would be a building block for the next great Nationals team and was part of the proceeds for the Juan Soto trade, which in isolation worked out fantastically well for Microso and the Natson, the return they got was great, but there wasn't much talent surrounding it. So when you're taking a trade like that that's supposed to jump start a rebuild and then you're dealing one of the guys you got from that trade. Well, it seems like a setback and I guess on some level it is. But was it necessary? Did they need to turn that page and what does that say about the team's timeline to contain?
- [109:10]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah, I mean, it's almost a perfect microcosm for where the organization is at right now. You can just find within that trade. I mean, first and foremost, yes, it's depressing to the fans. It's extra depressing when you add on the layer that this was supposed to be a guy who was going to be frontline for the next great Nats organization and they just, they never won more than 71 games while he was on the roster. But yeah, it was absolutely necessary. When I think about where this organization lacked and you touched on it a little bit, it all goes back to the depth they had. You had James Wood at the top of the roster. You had Mackenzie Gore, who maybe not an ace yet, but could figure it out. C.J. abrams has been a great player. You have some of those linchpins at the top of the roster, but when you think about 10 through 26, they just weren't where other organizations and great organizations needed to be. And so when I think through like this package, specifically as trading a youngish guy who maybe didn't fully reach his potential, which is like the Nationals for five pieces who, you know, Paul Taboni said, hey, if we can get three to five good big leaguers out of this, we've done our job. And so when I think about what is necessary for this organization, so much of it is rebuilding the farm system, getting the infrastructure right, but also just getting more depth in the organization. You know, you should be at least relatively strong five through nine in the lineup. You should have a handful of starters you know you can count on. You should have a bullpen that isn't the worst in baseball. And so when I think through what this move says, I think it says a lot about a lot. So yeah, absolutely necessary and hard pill to swallow but, but one that they had to do well.
- [110:45]
Meg Rowley
And it's an interesting trade in contrast to say, their acquisition of Harry Ford. You know, you, you noted that the guys that they got back for core, a lot of those guys are, you know, they're far from the majors or they're risky, they're variant. They have variance in a way that could be very positive for, for the Nationals, but also presents risk. And then you have this move to get Ford, who obviously is, is big league ready right now, just had the misfortune of being blocked by Cal Raleigh. So how are they thinking about balancing sort of the needs of, of putting a baseball team on the field this season and, and in the next couple with this longer term rebuild because, because Harry Ford might be cresting free agency by the time they're good again if things take a while. So how are they thinking through those sort of varying timelines?
- [111:34]
Spencer Nussbaum
They certainly hope not. And I think when you think about either the moves that they've made or think about making, a lot of it signals that this year and the following season aren't necessarily primed to be in playoff position. But I think a lot of what they're thinking and hoping hinges on sort of the 2028 and beyond sort of windows where again, like if Harry Ford is an above average catcher or a fantastic backup, you're in a good spot. They have so many of their Top prospects are 2027, 2028 guys, guys who aren't necessarily going to come up within the next, you know, six months or whatever. And so when, when they are kind of constructing their timeline, so much of it is, hey, let's get the processes in place, let's make sure we're tracking everything, let's make sure we're making smart decisions as an organization and let's not rush anyone. I think that was kind of another pitfall of the former iteration of the organization was you had guys, you know, Dylan Cruz, Brady House, who had a lot of potential, but, you know, it's been a bit stifled in the major leagues. And I, I think honestly, not really through the fault of their own. I think it's, they were coming up at 2122 without a ton, ton of plate appearances in the minor league leagues. And you've kind of seen that at the major league level. And so I think a big thing with this org is, hey, let's not rush anything. Let's make sure that we have all of our tech and all of our coaches in place and make sure we're all rowing in the same direction and then figure it out from there. So I understand that that's super depressing to hear if you're a Nationals fan and you haven't seen anything since 2019. And I frankly don't fault them in the slightest. The only spin I would put that on that and the way that, that I've been thinking about it is, hey, you know, you maybe could have gone and pushed all your chips in and, you know, maybe won 78, 80 games this year, but you would have been stuck where you were before. So I think trying to set it up for 2028 through 2038 is kind of the way that they're thinking through
- [113:29]
Ben Lindbergh
it and along with the other guys you named who failed to launch, you could possibly lump in Caber Ruiz, who has been in the big leagues at least and so is established in that sense, but hasn't been above replacement level since 2022 too. And if he hadn't stagnated or, let's be honest, declined, then maybe you don't want or need Harry Ford. So that's sort of emblematic of what happened to this failed rebuild in that he was a perennial top prospect for several springs and he was also just one of the headliners that they got back in the Scherzer Turner trade along with Josiah Gray. And look how that's panned out. So what has happened to Capert here? How has he gone so south? Not only defensively in terms of the framing stats, but also offensively? It's been rough for the past couple years.
- [114:18]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah. I mean, frankly, it's a mix of things. We talk to him all the time about the same sorts of issues, which is again, the chasing, the receiving. And it's not as though he's not trying to get better. I think that that's something. When you're on the outside looking, looking in, you wonder how on earth this could happen. I don't think it's through a lack of effort, but it is kind of a case where either it wasn't the right instruction necessarily that he needed, or they just didn't really have a plan in place. I think if you talk to people around baseball, they did kind of question the Nationals defensive and specifically catcher defense throughout the past handful of years. And Caber has obviously kind of been the face of that where he hasn't gotten better at the receivers receiving end of the game in particular. And you know, all the, the one knee down stuff. We actually wrote a story last year, it was more about their, their minor league side, but you know, there had been a mandate in the organization to not drop to the more modern catching stance while guys were on base. And that's something that just does not happen in other, in other organizations. You know, hopefully they brought in Bobby Wilson as a catching coordinator. They hope that he helps him there. And then on the offensive side side, it really was just a matter of he chases more than almost anyone else in baseball. He has slow swing and, you know, he, he would get in short grooves where he could really do a lot of damage. But, you know, he, he didn't walk and he didn't hit homers after the, the first few games of the season. Couple that with he had multiple concussions last year, which was kind of sad and, and really kind of set him on a down note ending, ending the season. So, yeah, again, it's just kind of all these things where it's like, God, you wonder what could have happened if he had different coaching over the last handful of years or maybe had different instruction or took different cues in different ways. And I think that's what's really encouraging about what has been added over the past six months. The only question for a guy like Kaber is, you know, is it too late in his developmental arc to fix some of these things?
- [116:15]
Meg Rowley
We keep bringing Nats fans low. Let's, let's bring them high. And that isn't just a joke about how tall James Wood is, but it isn't not a joke about how tall James Wood is high because he's 6. 6. On a team where offense was a little thin on the ground. He, he certainly provided some in his sophomore season. He was a three win player. I'm curious sort of what the next developmental goal for him is. And, and I'm sorry that we're going to keep asking this question, but like, where did they see him fitting in from a, a long term perspective is, is would someone they expect to be on the team and productive when the next good Nationals corps is on the field or do you imagine it might take longer than that?
- [117:01]
Spencer Nussbaum
James Wood is the one guy where I look at him during his best stretches and say that guy could be an MVP candidate in the next two years. And so I do think he's part of their next competitive window if they nail this as they're hoping to. He gave so many great moments in 2025 that I think that, you know, we didn't even fully appreciate in the moment. He had, you know, moments where it was like, you know, ending the 11th game win streak on a walk off homer and things like that. But it was really just the consistency in the first half of, hey, this is a guy who hits homers. They haven't had that in a while. Or this is a guy who has probably the best plate discipline on the team when things are going wrong. Right. And again, not to get too in the negatives, obviously you saw some of that dissipate in the second half, but this is a guy where when he puts it all together, the opposite field power, just the, the talent and frankly, I mean the work ethic, like it, it's all exactly what you expect from a guy who could be an MVP candidate one day. So he was someone that was, that was obviously a big boost last year and the problem was they just didn't have enough of him. So yeah, he's, he's someone where I think he fits into their, their short term and their long term plans. I know Nats fans are wary after trading Soto and Trading the return to Juan Soto, or at least starting to do it with, you know, the prospect of trading James Wood one day, I frankly wouldn't worry about that. You know, to be blunt, I trust the infrastructure that's there right now. And I think James is a guy who can be part of the next Nationals team that makes the playoffs or beyond.
- [118:33]
Ben Lindbergh
I was wondering if Mick was going for some sort of joke about how he should hit the ball higher too, and also get the ball off the ground. Do they think that he can succeed with this current batted ball profile, or are they still hoping to reshape that somewhat? Because obviously he came, what, two strikeouts short of Mark Reynolds's single season record. So he strikes out a lot and he had a 39% strikeout rate after the All Star break. Not ideal. It was working, though, early in the season. Reason, even when he wasn't really getting the ball elevated all that often, just because he does have such incredible power and hits the ball so hard and could just go out oppo with some regularity. So are they thinking if we can just get him to make more contact, it's okay if he still hits the ball on the ground a fair amount and. And goes the opposite way, or do they and he still want to change that as well?
- [119:27]
Spencer Nussbaum
I think it's a yes and no sort of answer, and that's a bit of a cop out. But when you, when you think about who James is as a player, say you, you take that first half and you don't change anything. That's a five and a half, a six war player. Yeah, he hits the ball on the ground a lot, but you, you really risk messing up his swing and messing up where he was at if you do try to tinker too much. I don't want to say they tried to tap into some poolside power, but you saw a little, little bit of that in the second half that I think was partially responsible for some of the time timing and some of the results. And so I think that if there was one tweak that they're potentially able to make with his bat path where you don't completely mess up his swing, but you also get it so he's lifting the ball a little bit more. I understand it, but I just don't think you need to make wholesale changes with that guy when he is hitting the ball, you know, 115 miles per hour all the time. I just think that you can live with some of those, you know, grounders and hope for the best. You know, just to speak to kind of the larger issue here. Hear that all the Nationals hit the ball on the ground too much, and so maybe you're not making wholesale changes with James Wood, but maybe you're doing it with some of the other guys on the roster who are maybe less of a finished product or maybe can, you know, improve their game in leaps and bounds by lifting the ball a little bit more. So they aren't trying to not do that with anyone, but with James, I think they'll definitely be careful.
- [120:48]
Meg Rowley
And I guess one of the candidates for an approach change in that regard might be Dylan Cruz. I don't want to knock him too, too hard for his 2025 just given that he dealt with injury, but talk to us about how the Dylan Cruz experience has gone so far because obviously this guy was highly lauded as a prospect and it just hasn't quite come together for him. What are they giving to him as developmental goals for 2026 and how likely do you think he is to be able to achieve them?
- [121:18]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah, I think the biggest message, and it's a bit of a cliche with Dylan in 2026, is just be yourself. And I'll unpack that a lot more because that's not an interesting answer. The way that I would put it is this was a guy who, in college, one of the real hallmarks of his game was the hit tool and was the reliability of the hit tool. The whiff has been there and the chase has been there. And I think honestly, for him to have a successful 2026 at the plate, he needs to fix one of those. I don't necessarily know how easy it would be to fix both, because I think that when you talk about approach and you talk about swing and you talk about all these things, it's hard to kind of fix all those things at once. But I think if he can really nail down one of those where he says, hey, let me get back to the approach I had in college, or hey, let me get back to the swing I had, you know, back when things were going really well at lsu. That's the sort of thing where I say, hey, if he can do one of those, he'll be in a good spot. The fielding has been there. The base running has largely been there. He's someone who has taken on more of a vocal role in the clubhouse, even as a 23 year old or whatever he is these days, which is a bit absurd. But yeah, he's someone who's. He's put those parts of his game together, but it just hasn't been consistent in the plate. Whether it's again, like at times it's just not being able to hit the breaking ball. And then once he figures that out, sometimes it's oh, all of a sudden like the fastball down the middle, he, he can't get to as much as he'd want to. He's another guy where I'd like to see a little more pullside power reliably without changing his swing too, too much. So it's just a whole bunch of things where he is really the test case when I look at this new coaching staff where I say if he has a successful 2026, that means other things have gone really, really right. And so that's one that I'm really looking at heading into the year.
- [123:02]
Ben Lindbergh
Cruz just turned 24. Positively ancient, but still 22. Is Brady House the other guy you lumped together with Cruz also a first rounder? Not quite as highly lauded a prospect, but certainly up there. And his first crack at the major league level didn't go great last year. So what's the outlook for him?
- [123:23]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah, he's someone. And the comment that always comes into my mind is from interim manager Miguel Cairo last year, who pretty bluntly when he was talking about Brady throughout the year, but at one point was just kind of said, hey, he's got to pick one side of the plate to swing at and just ignore the other one. So I think a lot of what you saw with Brady was just the adjustment to big league pitching and maybe not necessarily having the most consistent approach up there. And so that's where you saw the decline in power. You saw that all the decline in contact where he really thrived at AAA and just maybe wasn't able to make that adjustment or wasn't able to have the coaches help him with that adjustment as much as, as he, he had hoped to. So he's someone where in 2026, again, a big thing I'm looking at is how much he's chasing and how much he's really able to kind of control himself at the plate because again, he had a great stint in the minor leagues, but he, he got to the majors at 21 as an unfinished product where again, like the Pirates are probably about to call up Connor Griffin. That's a guy who really seems to have put it all together and I don't, I don't think Brady necessarily had done it when they called him up.
- [124:28]
Tim Britton
So.
- [124:28]
Spencer Nussbaum
So yeah, he's one where I wouldn't, you know, put a ton of expectations on him. I Also, you know, this is more speculation than anything else, but if he needed to have a stint back in the minor leagues to maybe work on some things, like I don't think that's the worst thing for him. So they don't really have a long term answer at third base outside of him. But I am curious to see how they, they figure that out because he's definitely not a finished product in the way that, you know, maybe James Wood is. Yeah.
- [124:53]
Ben Lindbergh
Though it does seem somewhat exploitable if you announced beforehand that you would be swinging only at pitches on one side of the plate and it was the same side of the plate. If that didn't vary from, from one pitch to the next, it seems like the, the book would be out on that pretty quick.
- [125:06]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah, maybe not the best piece of advice I've ever heard. Um, but you know, that's among a thousand different interactions so I'll give the benefit of the doubt on that one.
- [125:14]
Meg Rowley
Yeah, it feels a little unfair to ask how sustainable is Dalen Lyle's Twitter 2025 because you know he had a 132 WRC plus and 91 plate appearances. The less said about his defense the better. But I think he was sort of a, a, a silver lining, a breath of fresh air for Nationals fans last year when the, the team was really floundering and it didn't look like things were going great. How sustainable is is his performance and, and were there things that you saw where you thought well you know, maybe he's not going to hit quite like this but there's an approach here that he might be able to, to lean on when big league pitchers make an adjustment back to him.
- [125:59]
Spencer Nussbaum
I think the three best hitters last September by WRC plus if I'm remembering correctly were Aaron Judge, Shohei Otani and Dalen Lyle. So I don't exactly know how sustainable that is but what I will say and why I have have a lot of hope in his future is it's not just what he did in those 91 games. It's you know, the calls with scouts or people in the front office or you know, guys close to him where you know he was probably like the 9th or 10th ranked NATS prospect when he came up. You will never hear one of those people who have been around him say this guy isn't going to work out. I think the trust in the hit tool is so high and I think you saw that last year year where he has a floor of being an everyday major leaguer. We'll say at the Plate because again, the fields definitely needed some work. But yeah, he's a guy where all he does is hit line drives in a way that does feel more sustainable than, and sticky than you'd get with maybe some other guys in a 91 game sample. Just because again of the bat path and the reliability of the hit tool. He's someone who has a ton of speed and so even if he does hit the ball on the ground at some time more than you'd want him to, or he doesn't make, you know, flush contact, he's someone who can beat a lot out. I think he tied the Nationals rookie triples record last year and the only reason he didn't break it is because he had a, an inside the park home run late in the season where he, I think he had considered maybe stopping at third base but decided, hey, I'm going to try to win the Nats the game at the moment. So he's, yeah, he's a funny guy, but yeah, he, he's, he's someone where I, I do have, I don't know if it's James Wood level upside, but it's, I think it's way more than, than people, at least on the outside kind of expected. That's a guy where again, I, I kind of pencil in again. I hate to put war because the, the defense isn't quite there yet, but I, I basically pencil in a two and a half win, absolute floor with that guy with the potential to, to be a lot better. Yeah, that, that's kind of what I saw from him at the plate and then the field obviously need work, but that's something that, that he's worked a lot on over the last, you know, few months.
- [128:00]
Ben Lindbergh
C.J. abrams is another enigma. At times it seemed like he might be on the verge of stardom. At other times he's been demoted after doing an all nighter at a casino. So it's been really some highs and lows and he had almost identical offensive seasons in 2024 and 2025. It's not exactly Chris Davis batting.247, but just like across the board, almost all the stats are virtually identical. But it was a better year. He played a few more games. The defense was a bit better. He stole the same number of bases but got caught a lot less often. So there were improvements here. He's still only 25. Is he the next guy who is going to follow Mackenzie Gore both being in the Juan Soto trade and also being shipped out of town, or do they want to keep him Remember?
- [128:49]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah, I don't think it's a guarantee that he gets traded, but I would say, gun to my head, I think he will at the deadline. He's one where I think the reason they haven't necessarily traded him yet is because the gap between how they value him and the gap, how everyone else values him is relatively wide. You know, I say that James wood is an MVP caliber player. I think the Nationals say, hey, at C.J. abrams ceiling, if you look at the best three month stretches of his career career, that's also an MVP caliber player. Someone with power, speed, when he's locked in defensively, really high upside. But it just, I mean, look at any number that will tell you that he just hasn't gotten there yet. And so I, I think that he's someone where I would think it's pretty likely that he's traded. But you, you want to give him, you know, an extra three months with a new coaching staff and really see how high that ceiling can go. He's someone where. I think that there are a handful of teams around the league, league, just from speaking with some people that view him as a shortstop, there are a lot of teams that also view him as a second baseman or as an outfielder. So if he can prove that he's great defensively for three months, if he can do basically what he's done in the past couple of first halves or even better, that's someone where you look at maybe the prize of the deadline. He's the kind of guy that could be. Again, I don't necessarily think it's an absolute guarantee that he gets traded, but with three years left, you'd realize have to be super confident about. I mean, frankly, a 2027 season that we don't even know is what, what it's going to look like yet, that you're able to make all those improvements really quickly. And I frankly just don't think they're going to get there yet. But maybe something has changed in the last 24 hours that I haven't heard about.
- [130:21]
Meg Rowley
We talked about how they have guys, this is a young team and you know, there's more down on the farm if there's injury, if there's underperformance. Are there guys sort of floating around the high miners who struggle, strike. You as likely to see big league time this year?
- [130:35]
Spencer Nussbaum
Frankly, not a ton. Just because so much of their talent is either injured or in the lower levels of the minors.
- [130:42]
Meg Rowley
I think those pitchers, man.
- [130:44]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah, yeah. So like Luis Perales is probably the best bet where you know, maybe after the deadline he makes, you know, 12, 15 starts or maybe even earlier and really just blows the lid off this thing because again they acquired him this winter from Taboni's old team team and he's a guy with, with tons of stuff. I guess he is the main guy. And like I don't want to close the door on Susanna making his debut this year just because again, if everything clicks right with his return to the field, like that's a guy who could instantly be I don't want to say he would have, he would be the best starter on the Nationals right away but like that sort of potential if they do see him in the starting rotation. But again, I'm just wary that they're going, they're going to be uber conservative with rushing any of these guys after some of the mistakes of years past. And so yeah, maybe Susana I like, I really like Christian Franklin as a who's an outfielder that they acquired at the deadline last year. Sam Peterson's a, I think like a seventh or eighth round guy who's popped up also an outfielder but it's a crowded outfield. I like Abby Ortiz who's kind of the power hitting lottery ticket they got from the Mackenzie Gore package. He might even make the opening day roster. But if I see him as more of a AAA guy so, so there's a handful of guys but it, it really is like two years from now getting some of the other guys in or three years from now. The the Eli Willits of the world.
- [132:05]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, I believe it was reported this week that Cade Cavalli is expected to get the opening day start for the Nationals. Speaking of guys Nationals fans have been waiting for for a while and another injured guy so they did get glimpses of him. He made 10 starts for the big league club last year. What is still left of what he was as a prospect? How excited should people be relative to how excited they were a few years ago?
- [132:33]
Spencer Nussbaum
I don't want to say equally excited but again probably the guy I am most bullish on compared to just general expectations league wide. He's still throwing 97, getting up to 99. He still has unreal break on basically any pitch that matters. The command wasn't there last year and the I don't want to say the pitch mix but the sequencing. I talked to him a handful of times at the end of last year was not where he wanted it to be because he was still figuring out what his arsenal looked like after the injury. And so he's someone where I Look instantly at the stuff and say, this is not someone who I see every day. Is it an ace of an organization? I'm not sure, but I think that guy can be a number two. Two on a really good team. And that's obviously not something the Nationals have elsewhere in their starting rotation. So, yeah, I'm very high on him. I think he's someone where if he figures out that sequencing side of things and the mental side, not to say that he isn't locked in, but he's still figuring it out. That's a guy I'm super high on in 2026. The rest of the rotation is a lot of question marks and some guys who definitely have a decent floor, but the ceiling isn't what you'd find from threes and fours elsewhere in the league. But, yeah, Kate is a guy I'm all in on and someone just, again, from. From talking to him, you know, a couple times a week during the season. Someone who I feel is. Is really ready to take that next step and put all the arm injuries in the past and is. Is kind of ready to be that guy for the team when. When they desperately need it.
- [134:05]
Meg Rowley
Yeah, I wanted to ask about the rest of the rotation because you're right, this is. Well, it seems like they have a lot of number five starters on their roster and maybe not guys to fill in the gaps. But tell us about the rest of that group. Obviously, they supplemented it again this week with Zach Lutel, former effectively wild guest. Yeah, but they brought in Miles Michaelis and Foster Griffin and then, you know, Jake Irvin and Brad Lorder floating around. So tell us about the rest of that group.
- [134:30]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah, I think what the Nationals have this year that they maybe haven't had in the place first, first two years I've covered them, is that sort of reliable depth of guys who have already done it and shown something in the past. Michaelis, I haven't gotten to meet him yet, so I'm still not entirely sure. I can't speak to exactly what those conversations have looked like between him and the team, but it's a lot of like, you know, Miles Michaelis, you basically know what you're going to get. I think Zach Littell more or less, you know what you're going to get. Foster Griffin is a fun case of a guy who throws a ton of pitches and so you can talk yourself into, hey, is this guy Seth Lugo or is he, you know, maybe the. The best version of Eric Fetty, another guy who the Nationals got rid of in. In years Past Jake Irvin is a guy who again, has shown it for, for three or four months at a time. But the velocity, you know, when the velocity isn't there, he really struggles. Brad Lord is a guy who's bounced between the starting rotation and the bullpen. So it's just, it's one guy after another where it's, hey, we've seen two or three great stretches from you, stretches where you look like maybe a number four in a good rotation. But there's just. It isn't necessarily the stuff that you expect from, from guys league wide where. Think about Paul Taboni's old team with the Red Sox. They have so much pitching depth and it comes from a lot of guys who do, who throw at weird angles, who fill up the zone, who are nasty, and the Nationals just didn't necessarily have that.
- [135:55]
Tim Britton
So.
- [135:55]
Spencer Nussbaum
So that's kind of the individual looks at each of them. I'd say. The even more important thing that I think about is just exactly what types of pitches these guys are throwing. I think in the past three, four, five years, the Nationals have just told guys to hammer the zone with fastballs. Throw your fastball as much as possible, establish it kind of that old school way of thinking and kind of figure it out from there. You look early in spring training at what the Nationals have done done, and you look at Paul Tavone's old team at the Red Sox. Those guys never throw fastballs and they're not throwing fastballs right now. So I think hammering some of the secondary stuff, both is really fun to think about and consider as someone who's seen so many fastballs over the last couple of years, but also I think, really encouraging for some of these young guys where, hey, maybe he's not the ace of future staff, but if his curveball is the best thing that we've got, or if he's got some sort of nasty slider, a change up that he's only been throwing 15% of the time and now he's throwing it 50% of the time that that's really, I don't know, it's. It's fun to think about where this team could go and where some of these guys could go. Even if it's not a 3 RA, maybe it's a 4 ERA where before they were in the mid fives. So, yeah, it's a lot to think about with those guys.
- [137:06]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. That leads into something I wanted to ask. During the Cardinals preview, we talked about how the Cardinals and the Nationals were similarly averse to strikeouts. Their pitchers that is that only the Rockies in cores, of course, had had fewer strikeouts than those two teams. And Derek Gould, our Cardinals guest, was talking about how the Cardinals are bound and determined to change that, and that's a big emphasis for them. And I assume that with the Nationals, it's also a bit of a stylistic thing that they were more pitch to contact. And Mike Rizzo had his I don't care how fast you throw ball four mantra. And you just talked about the fastball heavy approach. At least the Cardinals, in addition to their pitching to contact, they had health going for them. At least their guys didn't miss many bats, but also didn't miss many starts. I don't know that you could say that about the Nationals either. So it was worst of both worlds, maybe, but how much of that was just purely the personnel, just not a very good team, didn't have great stuff? And how much of it was actually sort of figurative tying a hand behind their back?
- [138:08]
Spencer Nussbaum
I'd say it was about 50, 50 in the sense that, again, they had the I don't care how fast you throw ball four sands. That shows up in. In game strategy and player development. It also shows up in the types of guys that you get. You know, even look at the deadline last year, once Mike Rizzo left and Mike DeBartolo stepped in. You look at the fastball grades or the slider grades on any of those guys who came in, or their fastball velocity, they were honestly exceptional numbers. And a lot of those guys didn't have the command, so they were throwing a lot of hard ball fours. So, yeah, I think a big piece of it is the kind of talent acquisition, but so much of it. And if you talk to anyone in the organization, they'll tell you this is kind of the player development and the tracking side of things, where, hey, if something didn't work necessarily in the past, you just kind of went back to the way things were. Where I think really the big goal with, with this year and the upcoming years is, hey, we're going to track everything. We're going to track ourselves, we're going to track how fast you're throwing, we're going to track injuries, we're going to track every single thing that we can to try to get some of those variables consistent and say, hey, we all of a sudden know how to develop these guys who can strike guys out. Where in the past it was, hey, you know, try to do your best stuff, but if things don't work, just. Just kind of stick to what you were doing. Before and a lot of those guys didn't necessarily. Going back to the player evaluation and the talent acquisition piece didn't necessarily have the stuff that you'd expect from a frontline big league starter. So I hate to say it, it was kind of broken on both fronts from an acquisition and from a development standpoint. And it seems like now they're really trying to fix it. And that's maybe the other big thing I'm thinking about heading into this season is some of these changes, frankly, just are going to take time. But stuff is one that generally can be improved relatively quickly. And so especially at the minor league level, but even the majors, if a handful of these guys have real big stuff numbers that the track way, way up, that tells me that they've had a good 2026 and will have a good 2027 and beyond.
- [140:06]
Meg Rowley
I suppose we should talk about the bullpen a little bit. Hopefully they'll be. Well, you never know. Hopefully they'll be handing leads to these guys. Who are those guys? Which guys will they.
- [140:17]
Ben Lindbergh
More than one leads. Only need two leads to qualify as leads, so I think that's safe to say. Yeah.
- [140:22]
Meg Rowley
Yeah. I don't want to be too down on them, but walk us through this bullpen group.
- [140:26]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah. For a national audience, you probably have not heard either of these names, which usually isn't the case for a closer. Cleaton Beater, who they got at the deadline last year, is effectively a two pitch guy with a ton of stuff and not a ton of command. So he does throw ball forward really, really hard, but frankly did it really, really well when he came over at the deadline last year. Year. And then Cole Henry is the other setup guy where he was a LSU starter back in the day, went through some injuries, had tos which set him back for a couple years, but really was encouraging for, for large stretches of 2025 and stayed healthy. So those are two guys that I see as stalwarts and I see as, hey, even if they're, they're unfinished products, they are guys that you can bank on. Beyond that, that it's, it's a ton of question marks. So, yeah, I think the bullpen will be better this year, but I don't necessarily know how many reliable names will be in there.
- [141:21]
Ben Lindbergh
It's funny, when you say tos, my mind goes to terms of service and I was trying to. He had terms of service. No thoracic outlet syndrome. Of course. And once you, once you hear the name Clayton Beater, even if you haven't heard it before it's hard to forget. So it does, does stick in your mind. So the guy who will be making those calls to the bullpen pen and also presumably figuring out, say, who plays first base and who plays outfield, et cetera, is Blake Butera. And he's the new skipper. He is replacing former interim manager Miguel Cairo and Cairo is kind of eternally in his early 30s in my mind, because when I was a teenager watching him in New York, that's how old he was, that's not how old he is now. Or, or I am for that matter. He's a man in his 50s. But Blake Butera is still in his early 30s. He's 33. And I think the only player on the roster who is older than Butera is Miles Michaelis. Right. Unless maybe Trevor Williams comes back from internal brace surgery at some point this season. So I guess he almost has seniority by default, even as a rookie without a ton of managerial experience. But tell us a little bit as far as you've been able to glean about Butera and what it was about, about him that made the Nationals choose him.
- [142:37]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah, obviously the headline is very young, but the, the Nationals are doing that elsewhere. So really what has been compelling throughout both the hiring process with him and the, the months that have followed is how much he can relate to players and basically implement and help lead, you know, everything that they are trying to do at every level. He was with the Rays previously as the, their head of player development and I think the Nationals, part of why they see Blake as this guy to usher them into the new era is because he can speak that language and he doesn't think that player development stops at the major league level in a way that the Nationals have passed. You didn't see a lot of player development at the major league level, so they really trust him to be able to implement a lot of the more eccentric or newer age ideas that are coming in to the organization in a super new way. He's also, I mean like again, talking to people that he's worked with in the past or people that know him decently well or people that have had one conversation. The phrase that's been thrown around a couple times is 80 great human in the sense that he's a really good connector. I do think that there will be a bit of an adjustment at the major league level with him in terms of, of there are going to be hard conversations he hasn't necessarily had to have before and there will be new challenges that you just don't get when you're the head of player development. But I do think a lot of people in the organization see this as the guy and someone that they're really happy that they landed on. So even if these challenges are new, they see him as someone who come May or come June. He's figured a lot of those things out. So. So he'll be learning on the fly. A lot of people will be learning on the fly. But I've frankly yet to hear a bad word about him, not through a lack of sourcing. So yeah, he's someone where I think that they made the right hire, but there will be a handful of things that he'll definitely have to adjust to in the early going.
- [144:35]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, I guess he's got a little bit of that AJ Hinch background with the developmental experience, front office experience and now managing though without the major league playing experience and hopefully without the inability to stop sign stealing experience. And unrelated, I keep having to remind myself to the other buteras, the established big league butera bloodline not related to Drew, who is related to Sal, who is his father, but neither of them, yeah, related to Blake. So now that we have that straight, we can get to our closing question, which is what would constitute success for the Nationals this season? And I'm guessing your answer is not going to be win the World Series or even win the division or make the playoffs. So how do you gauge success for a team like this?
- [145:23]
Spencer Nussbaum
Yeah, it's not even going to use the word win, which I don't think is probably something you can say for, I don't know most of the people that you've talked to. For me, it's, can they make real improvements in some of the areas where they stunk? I think that's kind of the plainest way to say it. I don't think that this team is going to show up in the standings in, in any sort of way that's positive. But I do think it's, hey, are they going to stop throwing fastballs and have their secondaries work? Are they not going to be the worst framing team in baseball? Are they going to stop hitting so many grounders? Is the stuff going to tick up? It's all these goals where it's really process and player development oriented and less so about, hey, can we like eke out a win here or can we, can we do this here year? It's all of those kind of process and evaluative goals and less so about, hey, we're going to win 100 games this year. And again, that'll be tough for Nationals fans to swallow at times, it will be tough to watch, but there's just so much that needed to get cleaned up within the organization both in the major and minor league level. And so it's making sure that everyone's rowing in the same direction and doing those things that newer new age organizations do. I apologize to Nationals fans that wanted to see agencies 80 wins this year. I I wouldn't bank on it, but I would say that there's still a lot of compelling pieces and compelling trends that hopefully I I will be tracking over at the Athletic.
- [146:42]
Ben Lindbergh
All right, well, we have been speaking to Spencer Nussbaum, formerly of the Washington Post, newly or about to be of the Athletic. Still has that shiny new fresh beat writer smell. Not that any beat writer doesn't smell good. I'm not suggesting that from personal experience, but we congratulate you on the new gig and we look forward to you getting started over there. Thank you, Spencer.
- [147:06]
Spencer Nussbaum
Thank you. That's the best outro I've ever gotten.
- [147:09]
Ben Lindbergh
All right, I mentioned at the top of the pod that Team USA and Team Italy were both undefeated in the wbc, but something had to give because they played each other on Tuesday and Italy triumphed. The team of former Ringer MLB show guest Michael Lorenzen and former effectively Wild guest Vinnie Pasquantino topped Team USA 8 to 6, took an 8 nothing lead in a late comeback by Team USA could not quite overcome that margin. Not the greatest start for the US by Nolan McLean, whom we discussed on the Mets segment. So now Team USA on the brink of being knocked out of the knockout stage. They now have to root for Team Italy on Wednesday to beat Mexico and if Team Italy wins again, then the US Will advance. If Mexico wins, wins. Then it comes down to a three way tiebreaker based on runs allowed and the two teams that have allowed the fewest runs would advance. So another former guest of ours, Louis Paulus, broke it down on blue sky. Italy wins, Italy and the U.S. advance. Mexico wins and scores six or more runs. Mexico and the U.S. advance. Mexico wins and scores fewer than five runs. Mexico and Italy advance. If Mexico wins and scores exactly five runs, Mexico advances and the last spot comes down to other things. Then it gets complicated. That's the tie break for Sickos scenario. Or he added, in terms of what each team needs in a nine inning game, Italy advances with a win or a loss while allowing fewer than five runs. Mexico advances with a win. The US Advances if Italy wins or Mexico scores six plus runs. If Mexico wins while scoring exactly five Italy USA comes down to how many of those runs are earned and then potentially how many runs Italy scores. If Mexico wins at extras or via mercy rule or even without having to bat in the bottom of the ninth. That also changes the decision tree logic for Italy and USA getting the other spot. So a serious, exciting upset and we will discuss how this round turns out next time. If you'd like a little more me yakking about baseball elsewhere, I appeared on Friend of the Show Ellen Dare's podcast Take Me into the Ball Game. She talks about baseball movies and shows and she had me on to talk about Charlie Brown's All Stars, the second Peanuts animated special. You want to hear me talking for two hours about baseball and Peanuts and my love of both, please do tune in. Ellen, of course, in addition to being a rabid Phillies fan, is an accomplished actor and brilliantly used her voice to bring Ella Black to life in our three part effectively Wild docu series last year. By the way, we talked about Joe Se, the king of contact of the 1920s and 30s and his seemingly indestructible bright that Black Betsy I meant to credit the source that story I was reading came from Craig R. Wright not all right, R. Wright, whom I have mentioned many times in the past for his previous subscription newsletter called Pages from Baseball's Past, which ended and went on hiatus for a while and is now back and is on Substack, so I will link to that. He is recycling many of his previous stories and also writing some new ones. I always learn a lot from Craig's work. He is an accomplished historian and also also was the first person to hold the title of Saber Matrician for an MLB team back in the 80s. Had a long career in baseball, was a real trailblazer in that respect. Thing about bats versus Guitars is guitars tend to take a little less abuse unless you're Pete Townsend and you're smashing stuff for effect. Also follow up message from Brad Patreon supporter who says, I was just listening to episode 2449 when you were talking about teams starting so early in the day during spring training. This was something that former team executive Andrew Ball wrote about in his newsletter that teams don't have to report as early in the day as they do in spring training, but everyone just does it out of inertia or not wanting to look any less serious about preparing for the season. Well, Brad says, it reminded me of this MLB Network interview I saw with Warren Shaffer talking about how the Rockies are changing things up this year and not starting early so let me play a brief clip now of the Rocky
- [150:50]
Spencer Nussbaum
Skipper talking about a new regime, new coaches and a new camp. Tell me how you guys are doing things differently specifically. Is it just what time the guys are meeting, that type of thing?
- [151:01]
Tim Britton
Yeah, I mean that's part of it.
- [151:03]
Ben Lindbergh
It's a, it's a 180 degree shift
- [151:05]
Spencer Nussbaum
in, in terms of way this camp is run.
- [151:07]
Ben Lindbergh
I mean the mornings are theirs. We don't like to do things in the morning a lot to get the rest and recovery in hitting in the
- [151:14]
Spencer Nussbaum
cage at 7:30 in the morning. I don't think is is good for success.
- [151:17]
Tim Britton
You're not rolled out, you don't have
- [151:18]
Ben Lindbergh
your coffee yet, so we're starting later. Well, kudos to one Warren and kudos to the Rockies. And how often do we get to say that I guess that's the perfect team to try to shake things up because what they were doing before was not working so well and they kind of can't go anywhere but up, even if they don't get up until later. Sometimes that gives you cover to experiment. Also, when we were doing that Nats preview, I meant to give an on air congratulations to our pal RJ Anderson, late of CBS Sports, who is the newest or one of the newest members of the national's front office. RJ's been with baseball Prospectus and with Fan Graphs. We've been friends for years and sometimes colleagues. Great guy, smart guy, smart hire by the Nats. We will miss him in the public sphere. He is, I believe, an eight time effectively wild guest, so maybe he can help turn things around in dc. He's got a good eye for talent, which we know because the last time he appeared on this podcast was on episode 2295, which was a year ago this week. And I brought him on because he was one of the only podcast approved breakout candidate pickers. He always picked breakout candidates the way that I think it should be done. Finding real diamonds in the rough, not selecting top prospects or guys who were good last year, but maybe not for a full season or no one noticed or something. I will very much miss him on the breakouts beat, though I guess picking breakouts might still be his job. It's just that the Nats will be the only ones who benefit from that insight. And speaking of the breakouts beat, I'm mostly off it these days. I have largely retired from from ranting about breakouts. I've made my point. I can't promise that I'll never uncork another complaint about a bad breakout pick. But I tend to avoid the breakout articles where I know what I'm going to get and I know that I will heave a heavy sigh, so why subject myself to that? And I'm glad to see that my hectoring has had an influence because not for the first time, another national writer has steered away from using the term breakout out of apprehension about how I might react. This is Zack Kriser, writing for the Bandwagon Most recent edition, says bandwagon pre boarding picking MLB players to make the leap in 2026. And he writes, Today I've got part one of what I'm calling bandwagon pre boarding. Am I using that term to avoid the wrath of Effectively Wild co host and much appreciated reader Ben Lindbergh over the term breakout player? Maybe. Am I trying to draw a distinction between the effort I'm undertaking and the more front office employee style, more difficult art of scouting for True diamonds in the rough? Also, yes, I will take it. Zach, thank you. You very much appreciated. And I'm glad to see that even if I'm toning down the rhetoric a tad, my legacy will live on. Fear will keep the local writers in line Fear of this Podcast Anytime you can comp yourself to Grand Moff Tarkin, you got to do it. You also gotta, or at least might wanna support the Podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com effectively wild and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks, as have the following five listeners Dan Lucas Hager, Joseph Durantini, Violet Brown and Sean Ferrante. Thanks to all of you, Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only, monthly bonus episodes, playoff live streams, prioritized email answers, personalized messages, shoutouts at the end of episodes, potential podcast appearances, discounts on merch and ad free Fangrast memberships, and so much more. Check out all the offerings@patreon.com effectivelywild if you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcastangrafts.com youm can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook group@facebook.com group effectivelywild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at R Effectivelywild and you can check the show notes in the podcast posted family graphs or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we've cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. Back with more previews a little later this week. Talk to you then.