← Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Effectively Wild Episode 2451: Season Preview Series: Phillies and Angels
02:16:05
Loading summary
Transcript236 lines
- [00:01]
A
I want to learn about new statistics. I want to hear about Dynam rbis.
- [00:06]
B
Yeah, tell me about some prospect I should know about.
- [00:11]
A
Effect. Effectively. Hello and welcome to episode 2451 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs, presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer, joined by Meg Riley of fangraphs. Hello, Meg.
- [00:43]
C
Hello.
- [00:44]
A
Well, we are devoting today's episode to talking about the teams of Sam Alderi and Aaron Nola. I refer, of course, to the Angels and the Phillies. We will be previewing those two teams. Matt Gelb will join us for the much anticipated Phillies preview. Slightly under the weather, but in a way, thematically appropr. I think when you hear him, you will understand. And we will be talking one more time to Sam Blum, who in his final act essentially as an Angels beat writer, will be previewing the team with us one more time. This will be an exit interview of sorts. But before we talk about the Phillies and the Angels, we have to talk about Aldegarry and Nola's other team. That is of course, Team Italy. The Italians and the Italian Americans, your brothers, they have seized the spotlight.
- [01:36]
C
Yeah.
- [01:36]
A
In the wbc, they remain undefeated. They trounced Team usa, took the team to the brink of elimination, and then restored them from that brink by then beating Mexico the next day. So it's been inspiring to watch. We have seen Effectively Wild guest Vinnie Pasquantino beaned up, in his words, hitting three dingers. They are just the coffee drinking, kissing on the cheek team that everyone has fallen for. And I imagine that you are one of the people who has fallen for Team Italy.
- [02:14]
C
I feel a joy, a lightness, a happiness in my heart. I've never been happier for so many people from New Jersey. Look, somewhere, somewhere on Staten island, there is a dad who is deeply conflicted. He does not know what to do. He is deep in a bottle of Matz Bucciano. I, I, I made this observation yesterday and I want to be clear. I bear no ill will to Team Mexico. But it was so nice, you know, Vinnie had offered, he had offered in the WBC entering the game against Mexico last night. And then he has this triumphant three homer performance. And it's, it's clear how much this means to that entire squad. And then on, on the playing side, to him in particular, you know, they have embraced a philosophy of you should just have some nice treats. You know, your, your time on this earth is limited and you should have some nice treats. You should get to have Some. Some little espresso. You should get to listen to a little opera. You should get to put on a fancy. You should get to have some little kisses, you know, from. From the boys. And we will get to Team usa.
- [03:41]
A
Yes, we will.
- [03:42]
C
It stands in sharp contrast to their opponents from the other night, who have been so buttoned up and, like, expressly militaristic in a way where I'm like, hey, buddies, you're not shipping out tomorrow, like, over there. So, you know, they're just. They're having a good time. Cerveli is just beaming, you know, just basking in the.
- [04:05]
A
The.
- [04:05]
C
The glory of what he has wrought. You know, he talked on one of the broadcasts about how, like, I think we mentioned, like, he's living in Italy. He's trying to find Italian. Italians to be on this team, that the goal is eventually for Team Italy to be populated by Italian people and not just people with Italian heritage, but though we love them, you know, and so it's just a great time. They're excited. They're playing very sound defense. I've been so impressed by. By Team Italy's defensive prowess. Just, like, really solid, fundamental baseball. We got to see unexpectedly good pitching performances. You. You watch Aaron Nola last night, you're like, what are Philly fans mad about? This is. This is a perfect boy. He's never done a bad pitch in his whole life. Like, look at. Look at this specimen of a man. Look at Michael. Look at Michael Lorenzen, who apparently gave an interview where when he was asked what he knew more about than other people in the clubhouse, he talked about the Bible in crypto, which, like, for my. My. My street female friends on the apps, I pray that you never walk into a bar. And that's on the other end of the. So what are you into conversation? Because, I mean, the Bible part's fine, but, like, the crypto thing is nightmare, nightmare, nightmare. But it just. It's a lovely. It's a lovely time. And again, like, it means so much to them. It's beautiful. And it made us. It made us stare into the abyss with Team USA and really contemplate some fascinating strategic decisions. And I. I think the way that Italy and Mexico played that game yesterday was candidly what I expected. Like, don't. Don't monkey around.
- [05:50]
A
Don't.
- [05:50]
C
Don't engage in. In silliness. Don't do business. Just try to win a baseball game. And then it got to a point where Mex Mexico had to, like, really try to win a baseball game. They were not able to do that.
- [06:01]
A
But there is so much talk about the tiebreakers and how complicated all that is and all the strange scenarios that could have arisen. And could we get a disgrace of Guillon sort of situation here where they conspire to knock out Team usa? No, that didn't happen. It ended up not being all that suspenseful. But yes, as things stand, as we record here on Thursday afternoon, the undefeated teams remaining in the WBC are, as everyone predicted, Japan, the Dominican Republic and Italy. So, and so look, when Vinnie was on Effectively Wild, he talked up Team Italy and how they were going to have better talent this year. And when we talked to Michael Claire last week, we noted that it seemed like the most improved rosters were perhaps team Italy and Team Canada and they have shown as much. So we are up to the quarterfinals here and eight teams remain and there are some pretty exciting matchups to come. And so I don't want to make it about Team Italy and Team USA because, you know, we get Dominican Republic versus Venezuela. Like there's just, you know, tons of exciting stuff that has happened here.
- [07:04]
C
So much, so much.
- [07:05]
A
But we must spend some time on a man of Italian descent. Boy, Mark DeRosa, what are you thinking and doing, buddy?
- [07:16]
C
They can't all be winners, you know, like we, we've had some here, here's the thing that I, I feel like I'm Italian enough to say, and I'm not, I'm not full blooded Italian, but I feel like I'm Italian enough to say this. You know, we are a fundamentally ridiculous people. Like a lot of really beautiful things come out of Italy, but on some level we are goofuses. We are ridiculous. It can manifest a lot of different ways. Sometimes it involves hair gel, sometimes it involves crying in public. Sometimes it involves a weirdly familiar relationship with one's mother. And sometimes it involves seeming like you don't know the rules of pool play in a way that is.
- [08:05]
A
Yeah, Italy has contributed so much to the culture. We're going to talk about the Mona Lisa in our Phillies preview, you know, painted by an Italian man. But yeah, this, this is, this is a national embarrassment. I don't know if it's quite a disgrace and even if it were, it's not one of the top 50 national disgraces going on right now. But this has been a very poor reflection of this program and it's hard even to summarize because there have been so many conflicting stories and claims and an MLB trying to obscure what was said actively. And maybe we can have Shane Intersperse some actual audio from Derosa here so that we can all parse his actual words. But. But it's pretty tough too, because yes, of course, before the game, the morning before the game, he goes on MLP network and he's talking to his buddies Harold Reynolds and Matt Vas Gurgen and he makes a comment about how Team USA has punched its ticket to the quarterfinals. And so he's. He's going to get some guys off their legs, et cetera.
- [09:13]
B
I'm going to look at it, I'm
- [09:14]
A
going to get some guys off their feet.
- [09:16]
B
No question about it.
- [09:16]
A
I'd like to get Goldie a start and you know, he has been awesome. Just a leader of men behind the scene scenes with Aaron Judge. I'd like to get him in there. I'd like to get Gunner in there. Again, ton of respect for Italy. It's weird. We want to win. We want to win this game. Even though our tickets punch to the quarterfinals because Mexico plays Italy actually tomorrow. So this, the way, the way the schedule lines up, this is an important game for us. Nolan McClain will start. He's on the bump and he's good to go. Now, as you heard there, he also did make some reference to how the way the schedule shakes out and, and Italy's going to. Playing Mexico the next day. And so this is actually an important game for us. So it's. Yeah, it's kind of conflicting. Like, if you want to read it most charitably, you can interpret it the way that he later claimed, which was. He said he misspoke. Yeah, I misspoke. I was on Hot Stove with a couple buddies today and completely misread, misread the calculations. We knew that Mexico was going to play Italy and then running all the numbers with. If we lost tonight with the runs
- [10:21]
B
allowed and run scored and outs.
- [10:24]
A
So I, I just misspoke. Now when I first heard him say that he misspoke. Misspeaking to me, I guess that has multiple definitions, but. But that's more of. This didn't reflect my actual thinking. My words got garbled in some way. But I, I knew what was happening. Whereas this seemed more like misinformed, right? Like missed thought. Like he literally did not know what the stakes were. Now he said that he did. He said he 100% knew. I mean, it's. It's not great when you're in a situation where you have to defend yourself from not knowing the rules of the tournament. So that's not great. But. But he said that he knew and Then the day we're recording Thursday, he was asked about this again. Is there anything that you want to clarify about the timeline of when all the tiebreakers became clear to you? Yeah, it's just an overly confident statement on Hot Stove, period. The end. And it's my fault. I felt good about where we were after Mexico. We went into that game prepared to win it. I think there's a couple false narratives out there, but no, I was well aware that we had to win that game. And then amusingly, he said they went in two and oh, we went in two and oh, Team USA was actually three and O@ that time. So even when he is claiming that he knew more than maybe he did, he is still getting some facts wrong. But, yeah, look, he's saying, and there was some reporting that certainly by the time he got to the ballpark, he was aware of this scenario and that they were not actually in the quarterfinals already. But really, it comes down to which is worse, I guess that he did not know or he did know and he managed like that.
- [12:09]
C
Anyway, I'm gonna take a moment to be fair to mark DeRosa so that I can be kind of rude about him afterward.
- [12:16]
A
Okay.
- [12:16]
C
People won't think I'm a mean little jerk. I appreciate that. The WBC does present some unusual managerial challenges. These aren't your guys. You know, you have a responsibility to Team USA in Tarosa's case, but you also have a number of rules that constrain your pitcher usage. And you have to be a sort of a conscientious steward of guys who have obligations to big league clubs and who are going to be watching very closely to see how you're using their dudes. I'm sure that the White Sox aren't thrilled that Kyle Thiel is gonna miss time because he pulled a hammy running the basis for Team Italy. You know, so, like, you have to be mindful of a layer of responsibility and care that is different than it would be if you were, you know, pressing for a win in game seven of the World Series and you're a big league manager. So I think that there are times when some of the choices that are made by WBC managers that leave us kind of scratching our heads are. Are attributable to that dynamic and the restrictions that the tournament places on pitching usage. So let's be fair to Mark that exists as a phenomenon. Having said that, we have been asked Ben to. To take this team so very seriously. We had to listen to Aaron Judge give a cringy little speech. We had about the troops endlessly. These guys are wearing T shirts that, again, make it seem like they think they've been drafted. And then having been asked to exhibit a reverence toward this event, to believe it to be the best team that Team USA has ever put on the field, which, from a true talent perspective, is absolutely true, you have DeRosa seemingly having a flexible relationship with his understanding of the. The tournament's rules. I believe him when he says that whether we want to call it a misarticulation or a misunderstanding of the stakes of the Team Italy, Team USA game, that whatever misapprehension there was there was corrected by the time he got to the ballpark. And you do have to get your guys in. You have to get guys in. Right? Like, if you. If you have gunner on your team, you should play gunner at some point, you should maybe play gunner or a third and just bench Bregman. But anyway, that's a separate conversation. So you could argue that this team, as good as it is, should be able to weather the presence of, like, Paul Goldschmidt. Right. But the thing of it is that there was seemingly very little urgency on his part throughout the managing, which makes people think that he just really didn't understand. Right. Whether or not that's true, and I don't think it is. At least by the time he, like, stepped into the dugout as first pitch was being thrown, the way he managed made it seem like he just didn't understand what they were playing for that night, that there was a possibility that the outcome of that game could lead to their elimination. And then he's talking about how the guys were up late and they were maybe having some beers, and not everybody's a sharp.
- [15:52]
A
And it's like, Dragon.
- [15:54]
D
Yeah.
- [15:54]
A
Because celebrating. Yeah.
- [15:57]
C
And it's like, so, hey, Mark, which is it? Are we supposed to take this seriously, or are we supposed to just be yucking it up? And if we're just yucking it up right, then what's with all of the. The sort of bloviating about, you know, how serious it is and you're saluting each other and. And I don't mean this to be like a, you know, disrespect to the troops kind of a rant, but it's just like they have leaned so hard, a sort of rigid, militaristic affect as a team, while a Team Italy is enjoying little kisses and espresso shots. And the other teams in the tournament, regardless of the caliber of the. Of the players, they were able to put on the field are playing like they're playing game seven of the World Series. Every night they go out. The sort of disconnect between those things kind of makes you annoyed at the. At the whole endeavor. The WBC is so great, and we get to see so many. We get to see guys we haven't seen in a while. We get to see, you know, Venezuela and the Dominican Republic. They had both advanced. They were playing for seating, and the seating's not unimportant, right, because the loser of that game had to face Japan, and that's a tough assignment. But it's not like South Korea is, like, some pushover, right? Like, they're just in for a hard time once we get to the knockout rounds, regardless, they are just playing their asses off, right? And. And their fans are so invested, and there's an energy, and I just. I need to see more from Team usa. And I think that part of the whole thing, weirdly, might just be, guys, unclench a little bit and have some fun. You don't have to make this some, like, grave slog of a time, you know, like, just. Just the. It. It's. It's exhausting, and it's not accomplishing anything. Like, it would be one thing if they were like, we are serious and regimented, and we're going to be. And then they went out and they were, like, kicking the crap out of every opponent and, you know, smothering Team Italy's chances and that. But that's not what has happened. I understand the instinct to, like, focus on the DeRosa of it all, and there's definitely criticism to be leveled there. Although, as I was saying to. I think I was saying this to Craig Goldstein. Like, reaction the next day was so big in a way that I thought kind of misrepresented what he had said. But also, him not being a great manager is, like, a preexisting condition, right? This wasn't something that was revealed. It's just like the reality of when the tournament falls means that you can't put a big league manager in that seat. And so they went to derosa. And I just wonder, are those our only options? You know, is it. Is it big league manager or Mark DeRosa? It seems like surely there are other guys who we could turn to.
- [18:58]
A
What are his credentials exactly? I know that he played in the tournament, but he's a talking head on MLB Network. And I know people have pointed out that there is. I mean, it's somewhat fitting representing a country that is run by a lot of people who are TV personalities who don't have the typical credentials and may not know what they're doing. So maybe it's perfectly appropriate. But yeah, you'd got to think, I mean, this guy, it's essentially a reward for him. He is sort of Rob Manfred's hatchet man in a sense. Like, he goes around with his. Him to clubhouses. In fact, we'll be talking quite a bit about Bryce Harper, but the interaction that Manfred and Harper had when Manford visited the Phillies clubhouse, and then it came out that derozo was the one who had made some sort of vaguely threatening comment to Harper about, like, don't cross the commissioner. He's a powerful guy. Which was probably just something lost in communication there, probably an attempt at a joke. But as we have seen this week, maybe DeRosa is not the. The most facile communicator. Right. So. And what are his managerial credentials? Exactly. And so, yeah, I know it's. It's tough timing and everything, but like, can you not get, I don't know, Bruce Bochy or something? Like, I mean, sure, he has a job, but still, it's like you had Jim Leland managing this team in a past wbc.
- [20:18]
D
Sure.
- [20:19]
A
Dusty Baker was managing team Nicaragua. It's hard not to think that there couldn't have been someone better out there and that this is just, well, it's sort of an MLB run thing. And so they have their guy who's on MLB Network and they just put him in there.
- [20:34]
C
Right.
- [20:34]
A
I would be surprised if he's back next time after all of this. I mean, maybe if, if Team USA salvages this and goes all the way and wins, but otherwise this is going to stick to him, I think, and it should. And now if, if he had not known, if he had really not known, then that would have been on a lot of people because all his coaches, the players, Michael Hill, who's the GM of this team, like, obviously someone should. I understand the tiebreakers are kind of arcane and Byzantine and it's hard to understand, like, batting average has something to do with this. What?
- [21:09]
C
Right.
- [21:09]
A
But someone has to tell him. But yeah, assuming that he knew. There is something absurd and sort of funny frankly, about it. Like, if you're not that invested in the outcome of, like, we have recruited this super team, one of the best baseball teams ever assembled. And in this very important game, our manager may or may not have known how important it was. And regardless, put in Ryan Yarbrough. So with it, right.
- [21:35]
C
And like, you have, like, you have Clayton Kershaw warming.
- [21:38]
A
Yes. And I know there. There are restrictions, right? And, like, you know, Mason Miller, like, he could only pitch an inning or whatever it was. And so, yeah, you. You do. You can't always use your best guys as much as you want to use them, but also, those are maybe the two worst pitchers on your roster at this point.
- [21:56]
B
So.
- [21:56]
A
And.
- [21:57]
B
And.
- [21:57]
C
And like. And I don't want to speak ill of Ryan Yarborough. His name always makes me think of cheese. And I love cheese. Doesn't Yarborough sound like a kind of cheese? It does seems like it should be a kind of cheese. Anyway, I. I get all of that, but then you look at sort of his pitcher usage over the course of the entire tournament, and it's like, are you really putting your guys in at the right time? Like, you. You faced less good competition than this. Like, couldn't you have played Clayton Kershaw then and then saved Melder for later? I don't know. So it's just like, it didn't feel fully thought out or strategic. It felt like, hey, at the very least, you can tell the boys not to, like, be drinking beers such that they're dragging ass the next day. It's like, what. What do you. What do you think we're doing here? We're in. Like, are we taking it seriously or aren't we? And that isn't to say that there wasn't good play in that game, and it was an exciting game, and clearly they're a super talented team. They. They were almost. They almost came back to win it. Right? Like, there was. There was a good rally to be had in that club, and they showed it. So, like, it's not like they're a bunch of, like, schmoes or anything, but it just. It didn't. It didn't seem like it had the appropriate level of urgency, given the urgency we were asked to treat it with. Right. That we're supposed to, like, imbue it with this reverence. And then it's like, then they're not doing. Then they're doing it, you know, so don't. If you're gonna subject me to this stuff, like, you gotta. You gotta keep up your end. And so it'll be interesting to see sort of how they kind of react to it. The fact that he's been sort of defensive about it. He, being DeRosa, has been sort of defensive about it, like, doesn't seem like a great sign. It is also funny to be like, I was yucking it up with the boys and I misspoke it's like you're on MLB Network also, you're a broadcaster. Isn't the speaking your whole job?
- [23:52]
A
Like, yeah, yeah. And. And of course they didn't call him on it in that conversation.
- [23:57]
C
Of course they didn't.
- [23:58]
A
And most people are not many people watching that program at 9:45 in the morning or whatever it was. And so that didn't really. Didn't really make the rounds, didn't circulate until it looked like, oh, wait, they're going to lose. And actually they're in some danger of being eliminated here. And look what the manager. Get a load of what DeRosa said this morning. And then, of course, course, MLB did not cover itself in glory because they took the video down. The video was inaccessible for a while on mlb.com and then they edited also on YouTube, I think, and on the MLB Network Facebook page, they kind of condensed his comments so it didn't include the part about punching the tickets. And of course, they did restore it later after everyone said, hey, what are you trying to do here? And there was just a Streisand effect. Yeah. You know, where many more people were paying attention to it because they took it down. And I have no idea how high the order came down, whether that was just one web person who said, let's take this down, or whether that came from Manfred himself. Who knows?
- [25:00]
C
Yeah.
- [25:01]
A
But obviously pretty counterproductive because the clip was circulating elsewhere. It's not like you're gonna wipe this thing off of the Internet. Then I think they gave a comment to the athletic justifying it by saying that they took it down because they didn't want inaccurate information out there to like, mislead fans or something. Which. Which was funny. Well, it was inaccurate, but. But funny that the inaccurate information you're trying to scrub comes from the manager of the actual team. If that's the rationale you're going with, it doesn't reflect well on him. So, yeah, there is some disconnect here between the all business and we're very martial and we're not even going to break character long enough to shake Randy Rosarena's hand. And, you know, we have our salute celebration in the outfield and we have Cal wearing the front toward enemy shirt, which is like a phrase that comes from Claymore Mines originally. All of which is like, while the country is prosecuting an actual war, which just, I feel like I don't know if that's what they're going for here. I mean, I understand that. And the skin's comments about how they are out to dominate everyone because that's what we do. And I know that Skeens and Griffin Jacks were former Air Force Academy guys and everything, but, yeah, it's like you guys are not at war. Like, other American service people are at war. Like, people are dying, you know, but. But you guys are just playing baseball. And also, if you want to be super, like, we're just here to dominate and take care of business, then also you have to, like, put your best team on the field and not just give guys a blow because you think that you're just going to roll right over Team Italy. You know, when you don't start Cal and Harper and Bregman and Buxton and Terang, like, all these guys are on the bench to start that game. Some of them came in after that, but you're going with Nolan McLean and then Yarbrough and then Kershaw's warming up. It's like, where's the urgency? And. And it's not even win or lose, like, how many runs you allowed matters too obviously there. So, yeah, you want to put your. Your good guys in. You have the super team. You don't want to go down with Yarbrough on the mount. No offense to Ryan Yarbrough. Right.
- [27:11]
C
No offense to Ryan Yarbrough. And, you know, I think you gotta, again, because there are these external considerations, you know, sure. Maybe. Maybe you think this is our. This is our opportunity to get Will Smith, who is a very good catcher, right. Like, he's a good, productive player. Maybe this is our chance to get Will Smith in there and give California a break. But. And then, like, Will Smith is, like, calling for all four seamers from Nolan Clan. I'm just like, what are we doing here? So it's just. It feels. It feels like they're coming and going, you know, and it stands in very sharp contrast to the simultaneous, like, seriousness and joy that the other teams in the tournament seem to be bringing. And, like, I don't want to harp on Clayton Kershaw's physique, because that feels rude, but it's like, you know, you're watching Team Canada if you were watching Team Canada. And here's James Paxton. Yeah, James Paxton's been retired. James Paxton looks great. James Paxton looks like he could be in a big league rotation tomorrow. And I understand, like, he's not super stretched out. What do you be. Him being good when he's available has never been Paxton's problem. He gets hurt all the time, but he is throwing, like 97. His body looks amazing. Like, he clearly took the preparation for this event. Event very seriously. Team Canada is, like, yucking it up with each other. And there's all this love, and I don't know, it just don't make the thing that's joyful, joyless. And I know that Team USA doesn't necessarily have control over, like, it's its own advertising or the advertising that Fox chooses to deploy. This isn't going to be an extended rant about the Tales from the Bible ad that is ubiquitous, I promise. There are two WBC ads that I have seen in broadcast. There is the one that is only about Team usa and it has, like, really intense music. It sounds like the, you know, like a trailer to a Christopher Nolan movie. And it's, oh, here is saluting and we're coming for everyone. And then there's another one that features, like, a young Latino woman who's, like, talking about the tournament. And it's like all of these exuberant shots of players and fans from all over the world. There's Team USA in there, too. And it feels like the perfect encapsulation of, like, the contrast of most of the other teams and Team usa, where it's like, everybody is having a great time. They are taking it seriously, but it's like they are showcasing all of these, like, cool things about their country or their understanding of their country. Like, I do wonder what Italians are think of all of Team Italy's stuff. Because it's like Italians and Italian Americans, discrete population. You know, we can. We can be honest about it, you guys. We can be honest about some of the differences and some of the alterations we have made. They are defensible. It is different. We can just be honest about it. But, you know, it's like they're. They're like opera. What baseball player. I wonder if that's Cerveli. I wonder if Francisco Cervelli was just like, look, I like opera, man. We're gonna to. We're gonna listen to this little shots. They have to, you know, and then every little. I'm anti. Bit. You know, this. I. Or at least I have a bit limit. I have. I have yet to reach my bit limit with Team Italy, right? And they're not the only ones with a bit. You know, the doctor's got a jacket and a weight. You know, they've got all kinds of stuff when they hit home runs and they have been hitting them. So anyway, I just. They need to pick a lane. And I hope that their reaction to the near catastroph fee of getting bounced with a roster this good will be to, like, lock in, but also unclench.
- [31:05]
A
Yeah, because there was a lot written about the chemistry of Team usa, which is maybe a bit overblown because these guys have barely been together. But. But still, it. It seemed like there was a lot written about how they were all on the same page and they're very focused and. And eyes on the prize, et cetera. And. And it. Look, if you have a big win over Mexico and then you. You hang out in the clubhouse for a couple hours and you have a little bull session and sure, guys are cracking beers, you know, that's okay. Like, it's not like they were going out to the club or something. I don't think so. Fine. I mean, that's one of the cool things about the WBC is that all these stars are coming together and people who are not normally teammates are teammates. And so I like that they're having that togetherness. But then also, yeah, if you're signaling, oh, yeah, guys are dragging after that big win, I mean, it does sort of signal like, well, we don't need this one, or we're not taking this as seriously as we could or should. So, yes, it was not the banner week for Team usa, but it lives to fight. It seems to think that it's a fight to play another day. And I wonder how many times I will see the Sopranos it's anti Italian discrimination clip over the next week or two because I've seen it many, many times. But you know, we're down to eight and we've got Korea and the doctor and US versus Canada matching up in yet another international competition. And Puerto Rico and Italy and Venezuela and Japan. And can anyone take down Japan? And Team USA is undergoing a bit of a line change here heading into the quarters, getting some reinforcements. Ryan Yarbrough out, returning to Yankees camp. Obviously, Tarek Skubel had already departed and so will Vas and Tyler. Not Taylor Rogers are in, as is Tim Hill, not Michael Hill. And Michael Waka is out also. And Kershaw also. I guess we can now officially close the book on Kershaw's career because it sounds like Joe Ryan is coming in and could be in line for a start in the championship game. Possibly.
- [33:13]
C
So Matthew Boyd returned to Cubs camp, right?
- [33:16]
A
He did, yes. Yeah. So the composition of the roster somewhat changed and we'll see whether the new blood hurts or helps, but hopefully the messaging at least is on point and we'll have. We'll have some fun, exciting matchups to discuss. And, you know, it's not all about Team usa. Obviously, most of our audience is US based and this was the big news. And I gotta say, like, whether you're really rooting for Team USA or not, I, I think it's, it's good in, in a sense for the growth of the WBC that Team USA did not get eliminated. I mean, I don't want to say that it's like, you know, we're, we're better off with Mexico not advancing or something, but it's like a lot of other countries were already super into the WBC and 2023 was a big moment for American fans and players for that matter, really starting to care and taking it seriously, despite some indications otherwise this week. And so if Team USA had gotten run out this early, then I think that might have been bad just for the continued growth and interest, really, at least domestically. So maybe it's good for the WBC in some broader sense that Team USA continues. And, you know, it is interesting that we don't see more upsets than we do in the WBC because it's, it's playoff baseball, more or less. It's a small sample tournament. And for Team Italy to take down Team USA in that game, it seemed so surprising. And it's interesting because it's baseball, after all, and one game, anyone can win anything. I guess it's that. Well, it's not just one game, obviously, you're, you're playing multiple games. And then the talent gaps in the wbc, like when we talk about the playoffs being a crapshoot, that's partly the small sample in baseball just being inherently pretty random and unpredictable. But it's also the. But there are very small talent gaps among the teams in the playoffs. They're, they're all major league teams, and they're usually pretty good major league teams. So the mismatches are not that great. Whereas in the wbc, they're, they're pretty great sometimes. You know, they're definitely bigger than you're going to get in a MLB playoff game or maybe even in a regular season game where, you know, you can see the Rockies take two out of three from the Dodgers, even when the Dodgers are repeating as champions and the Rockies are having one of the worst seasons ever, that, that doesn't really shock anyone. So we should expect some upsets in the wbc. But it's probably just that, like, you got your best guys going. You don't have to dip too deep into the roster. Yarborough, aside. And then, yeah, there's more of a mismatch in. In the talent, but in a sense, I'm sort of surprised that we don't see that more often. And some of the powerhouses getting. Getting knocked out just because it's baseball and it's not that many games.
- [36:07]
C
I agree with all of those things. I don't want to talk about Mark DeRosa so much.
- [36:15]
A
Well, hopefully we won't have to so much anymore.
- [36:17]
C
What if they just looked at it as an opportunity? And I understand they're busy in camp, too, so it's not like you could say. I was gonna say, like, who's the most promising manager at aaa? Like, can't that person manage Team usa? Say, I don't know. He might be coachable. He might be a coachable coach, but it just is a weird. It's just odd.
- [36:37]
B
It's.
- [36:37]
A
Well, it's not his first time either, is the thing. So, like, you think that he might have learned the last time around?
- [36:44]
C
Again, I don't want to be unpleasant, but I do. It was a problem last time. He wasn't making super great choices in. In 2023, you know, he just wasn't. So what are we doing here? I was so diplomatic when we asked Michael about it because I didn't want to put him in a weird spot. But I. I had a less diplomatic version of that question when we did our WBC episode, which is, we can't do better than this.
- [37:10]
A
Right. Because if you're going to pull out all the stops and bring the best players, then you don't want to also hamstring yourself by not having the best manager who's in charge of deploying them, you know, given the circumstances. And you could say that maybe the manager matters less because of all the restrictions, but maybe he matters more because you actually have to keep all of that stuff in mind. And tiebreakers are complicated and all of this.
- [37:33]
C
Sure. Well, and it's funny, too, because I feel like sometimes we, you know, we. We talk about, like, how much does the manager matter? Right. Like, you know, and we acknowledge that this is an important job, but I think we are of the mind that a lot of the things, at least in the big league context, that are the most important responsibilities of a manager, stuff that we're just not privy to. Right. Or at least we're not going to be observing with any regularity, and we tend to operate from this position of, like, strategically, everybody's sort of basically on the same level. Right. You don't get a lot of terrible blunders. Everybody understands analytics. And you know, as, as much as I spent the off season thinking about Wilson's bullpen management, like it's in the grand scheme of things, I think a lot of these guys are on pretty even footing. And then it's like the baseball gods were like, well, how much do you mean that?
- [38:35]
A
Yeah. All right, well, more WBC discussion to come, but today it is time to preview. So after a quick break, we'll be back with Matthew Gelb to talk about the always entertaining Philadelphia Phillies, followed by Sam Blum on the Angels. How do you calculate war? Does it come from the heart? Should we use defensive run saved or follow the OAA way
- [39:11]
C
who's gone away with their quips and opinions?
- [39:19]
B
It's effectively wild.
- [39:21]
A
All right, we have hyped up this preview segment for some time. I hope it will live up to the billing. But Matt Gelb has shown up, even though we speculated that maybe he wouldn't want to, given the kind of questions that we might be directing his way. But he is here and he is also at the Athletic, where he is a senior Red writer covering the Philadelphia Phillies. He also podcasts about the team for Phillies Therapy, which I have to ask, what kind of Phillies therapy are we talking about here? Are we. We're talking hyperbaric oxygen therapy, pulsed electromagnetic field therapy, extracorporeal blood oxygenation and ozonation. I guess you started this podcast in 2022, so it was probably a little less loaded a title bed then.
- [40:07]
D
Yeah, I mean, this is supposed to be more the on the couch type of therapy. I apologize in advance here. My voice is not great, but I'm guessing that there's got to be some sort of alternate home remedy that could perhaps help me here.
- [40:24]
A
Yes, I was, I was just joking. You were sounding a little RFK junior Ish and that perhaps there's some, some Bryce Harper concoction that could help you out here. The hydrogen water, the raw milk, the nature's whatever he calls his, his shake with unknown ingredients. Anyway, it's been kind of a wild time for the Phillies. They haven't been that active over the off season. It's not as if they made that many moves that weren't bringing guys back or extending guys. And yet we have had occasion to talk about them quite often for other sorts of news that they've made. So maybe, maybe we can start with with Dombrowski and Harper, because that kind of kicked off discourse cycles that have lasted until now and then that could be a segue into talking about what's happening with Harper. How is Bryce these days? But did Dombrowski intend to send any sort of message when he had that press conference, when he made those comments? Accurate comments, I would say, about his evaluation of Harper and not being elite and at his best anymore. And it wasn't as if he said anything that was untrue. It's just that we're not used to hearing popos just sort of say what they mean or what they think and speak the unvarnished truth. And that didn't go great because it inspired trade rumors, which I'm sure Dombrowski was not anticipating. But also, Harper seemed to take that personally and is still talking about it at times. So what do you think the motivation there was? And was he trying to light a fire under him and did this backfire fire?
- [42:02]
D
So I asked the original question in that news conference.
- [42:06]
A
You started all of this.
- [42:08]
D
I did not anticipate that being the answer, but I would say that I sat there and heard Dabrowski give the answer, and I thought, oh, like, that's kind of interesting. That's not. Not what I was expecting him to say. I also, at the same time, did not think it was over the top, out of line. And I don't think Bryce Harper thought it was either. I just don't think he thought it was going to be delivered publicly. I'll say this. I mean, Harper, every time he's been asked about this or wants to talk about, he's like, he. He starts out by saying, I did not have the kind of year that I think I should have, and I know I can have a better year. I think that he. It definitely has. It hurt him, right? I mean, like, the way that he's still talking about it and talked about it during the off season, and, you know, I talked to him in late October about it. Like, it obviously bothered him. And I get it. I mean, Bryce Harper has been the star of stars. And this is the first time where we're seeing, like, a little bit of, like, dents in the cloak of invisibility on Bryce Harper invincibility. And so I get it. I get why he was upset. Dave Domrowski has said that he did not intend to light a fire or motivate. I don't know that I necessarily believe that. I think that Bryce Harper is motivated. And Bryce harbor would say that he doesn't need Dave Dombrowski or Matt Gelb to motivate him. His. His motivation is internal. And I do believe that because Bryce Harper is one of the few guys who has had these massive, massive expectations for his entire career, and he's mostly lived up to it, which is amazing.
- [43:51]
C
Yeah.
- [43:51]
D
Because this guy was on the COVID of. Of Sports Illustrated at 16, and he has not won a World Series. No. But I mean, he has lived up to stardom so far, so it's a really interesting time in Bryce Harbor's career right now.
- [44:06]
B
Yeah.
- [44:06]
A
Although your. Your slight slip of the tongue there to cloak of invisibility, I feel like you could convince him that that was real, possibly at this point, if he happened to read Harry Potter or if just some Instagram question track told him that there was a way for him to be invincible, which is probably a hypothetical that we have considered on an effectively wild email show. Definitely would be advantageous in some ways. Would make it tough to make calls on someone. But what's going on with Bryce is. Is what we have identified here, we've. We've psychoanalyzed, and that's. That's never safe to do. But this sort of alternative therapizing that he is into, how deep does this go? How long does this go back? Is this related to his play? To some sort of baseball midlife crisis? Like, hey, I want to get back to being the best I possibly can. Is this just listening to the wrong podcasts, as Meg puts it, sometimes? Like, what's happening here in Harper's mind, let alone his body?
- [45:07]
D
I think this has been going on for a while. I think he's just been more public about it. I think as the discourse nationally has shifted significantly and things that, you know, weren't necessarily mainstream have become mainstream. I. I look at it this way, and you guys might be more well versed in history here than I am, but I think ever since the dawn of man, the richest people in the world have been seeking experimental and alternative cures and the secret to longevity and eternal life. And I'm not saying that's what Bryce harbor is doing here, but it kind of follows in. In that I think, realm. I think a lot of professional athletes are doing things that Bryce harbor is doing. You just don't hear about it as much. I think Bryce was way more public about it. The la. This off season in the last two years, maybe more than he should be. I don't know if it's. I don't know if it's my place. I know.
- [46:08]
A
Don't.
- [46:08]
D
I don't know. I will say this. This is the one thing I keep coming back to, is that the Phillies have a Pretty strong medical and training staff and program in place to the point where, like, players are citing it when they come to the organization or when they're exposed to it in the organization. And I don't think they're doing these kind of treatments, but I also think that they have allowed the players to. To explore this kind of stuff, but they've also been looped in on a lot of it. And I think if there's something that is completely and totally, like, off the wall, I think it's been shot down and look like they. The Phillies, and this is outside of Bryce Harper, they've done a really good job of, like, keeping these guys on the field, especially as they've fielded one of the older teams in the sport. Their rotation has. Health, obviously, has been a huge thing the last few years, and they believe in what they do. Are some of the players doing some unconventional stuff? Yeah, I think so. But I'm going to guess that this is probably happening more than we know. The Phillies are just maybe a little more public about it. At least the players.
- [47:17]
B
Yeah.
- [47:17]
A
It makes me wonder which. Which things they shot down that the players wanted to do that.
- [47:23]
D
I don't know. I don't know if we want to know.
- [47:24]
C
The blood back in br.
- [47:26]
D
You have to put it back.
- [47:28]
C
You can't just leave it outside. It has to go back in.
- [47:32]
D
I did pitch to the New York Times and Athletic, you know, going through all of Bryce Harper's treatments and, you know.
- [47:40]
A
And that's why you said like this today.
- [47:42]
D
Yes, that's why I said. But that was. That was going to be too expensive. I think of a story to do.
- [47:48]
A
They didn't.
- [47:48]
C
They didn't want to buy you $150,000.
- [47:52]
A
That's the bike trout machine.
- [47:53]
D
Yeah.
- [47:54]
C
You know that Bryce has one of those. Get out of here, Ben.
- [47:57]
D
You know, I'm telling you, telling you, this is happening. I think this is happening a lot. And we just don't. I mean, like, we got it. I like, kudos to Bryce, I guess, for being comfortable to be really public about it. But we're getting like a. A real interesting peek into how the modern professional athlete thinks. And certainly, like, Bryce is obsessed about, like, playing into his 40s. Like, he is convinced he can do it. And, you know, I mean, Tom Brady, like, we can. You know, Bryce talks about Tom Brady a lot, and Tom Brady had a very controversial training method and ideas. And, you know, Tom Brady is a freak, and it worked out for him because he's a freak. I don't. You know, I don't know what he did that might have prolonged his career, but Bryce is obsessed with this, so he's, he's very passionate about it.
- [48:42]
C
Well, you brought up the sort of average age on the roster and we could go in a couple of different directions here. I actually want to start with some of the young guys because, you know, like, what is there to say about JT if we only show at this point other than not much. Not much much other than that he's back and maybe for a little longer than was technically advisable. I want to start in that outfield, actually, and talk about Justin Crawford. What have you seen from him this spring? Has he fully grabbed that starting center field job? And as they're thinking about his sort of development trajectory, are there things that they're having him focus on to try to bring the bat more in line with where his defense is right now?
- [49:22]
D
Now, he will be the center fielder on opening day and I think they're going to try to give him a long leash here. He's an exciting player, but a polarizing one. You know, he hits the ball on the ground a lot and you know, there's been a lot of chatter about it and I think he will have to lower his ground ball rate to have to truly have success in the majors. But I also look at him and I'm excited because I don't think any of us have any idea how this is going to go. Yeah, he's, he's really interesting and I'm really excited to watch it this year because. Because yes, he hits the ball on the ground, but you know what, like, infields have to play him differently because of the speed and bunt element that he has. And some of those ground balls, more of those ground balls go through the infield because the corners are in, the shortstop has to be a little further in and no, like, is it advisable to have a player with a 60% ground ball rate? Will he have a lot of success in the majors with that? Probably not.
- [50:19]
A
Not.
- [50:19]
D
Could it work with a higher than normal ground ball rate than the average major leaguer? Yes, I do. At least for the first years of his career when he still has this elite speed. They've made some adjustments last year at the end of the year, and I do think he started to get the ball off the ground a little more. I've seen it at times this spring. I've also seen at times this spring where he's just hitting everything on the ground. I think it would be optimistic to Expect him to be an above average offensive performer as a rookie. Rookie. I think what they're looking for is play a good center field, bat ninth, do some crazy things at the bottom of the order in front of our big guys, get on base, bun a little bit, use your speed, make. Make the defense make a play. And I know that the brewers made a whole team out of that, and I don't know if I would go that way, but I think having a little bit of diversity of offensive skill set in your lineup is not the worst thing for this Phillies team. And I don't know, it might work, it might not work. I can't wait to see it.
- [51:20]
A
So that presumably pushes Marsh and the newly acquired Adelaide Garcia to the corners, flanking Crawford. One guy who's not here anymore is Nick Castellanos, of course, who made plenty of news over the off season, too. He had his little handwritten farewell slash confession, which was maybe prompted by also
- [51:40]
C
you writing about all these weird little guys.
- [51:45]
B
Guys, I know it's.
- [51:46]
A
Yeah, you're. You're the. The instigator here, Matt. You're reporting. It's just. It's driving all of these controversies surrounding the Phillies. But you had the story about what actually happened last year and. And the words that were exchanged and the beer that was brought to the dugout after Castellanos was benched. So I understand why they wanted to move on from him for multiple reasons. But has all of this affected the vibe at all? Because a few years ago, the Phillies were just a delight, just a national delight. Right. They were the just, you know, hair wedding, button opening, chest hair growing, himbos that everyone loved, and Castellanos was right at the center of that. And now that reputation has, at least in some circles, kind of curdled like raw milk into some sort of. Like, they've taken it too far, like they've gone off the deep end.
- [52:38]
C
So.
- [52:39]
A
So did Castanos and the bad blood there, did that actually affect things? Not in terms of the external perception of the Phillies, but how they related to each other. And. And was that what made it imperative to move on from him, aside from the fact that he wasn't that great anymore?
- [52:54]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think they did a good job of not making it a distraction last year. I think it could have been. But he wasn't the reason why they were having success or why they failed to advance past the Dodgers. I mean, I think. Think it might have helped to have somebody running to third base on that wheel play that the Dodgers pulled off, which was A very crucial play in the nlds. But I, I don't think Nick Castanos is why they fell short last year. That said, I mean the decision in the off season was made much easier by the fact that he's. No, he was no longer a productive everyday player and with the Phillies at least was unwilling to be a part time player like he did. He just didn't not want to do that with the Phillies. So like, have they truly upgraded here? Great question. I don't know. I mean I know defensively they've made a massive upgrade. Even if Adoles Garcia is not an elite right fielder anymore, which he might not be, he is certainly still, I think above average. And just that going from Castellanos to Garcia in right field is, is a big deal. That is a big deal for the Phillies. Ado Garcia. I don't know. I mean it's a one year deal. It's not a lot of risk. I do think there's some merit to getting into a more favorable home ballpark. I do think there's some merit to getting out of the absolute mess that appeared to be Texas's hitting instruction and coaching last year. He seems energized by the new home home and have they made an offensive upgrade there? I, I don't know. I mean he's a, he's a very similar hitter to Castellos. I mean he's a low OBP guy. The defensive upgrade is real and I think just getting Castellanos away from this roster, I, I think that that is, that's certainly a plus for the Phillies.
- [54:42]
C
Well, we can move to the infield and I actually want to start with someone who isn't playing for them. How close were they to getting something done with Boba Shet and how, how satisfied with their infield group are they now that they are sticking with what they know?
- [54:59]
D
What a weird thing, right? I mean, because they were, they were close. I mean they were that night. I don't know what day of the week it was. I think it was a Thursday night. They thought they had a deal. They did not have a deal done. I mean there has been some reporting that was like there was a deal in place. Like they, I, there was not a deal in place. My understanding is that they thought they had a path to getting a deal done the next day. And you know, the Mets swoop in after Kyle Tucker goes to LA and offer Bichette, frankly a deal that he should have absolutely taken because it's one of the most, you know, it's probably one of the more player friendly deals. And I'm sure you guys have covered this, but they're close. And the fact that they were that close and willing to rip up the infield to get Bichette tells you how they felt about the infield group before that. And then they're just like, oh, well, everybody's still here. And Alec Bohm, you know, we love you and you're going to be our cleanup hitter again. And, you know, understandably so. People in Philadelphia fans have been like, you know, a little turned off by, you know, what happened in the offseason and kind of how this team projects going into the season. It's funny because as usual, you know, the national perception of the Phillies I think still is that of a team that is in the small group that could dethrone the Dodgers, but within Philadelphia, I think there's just a lot of fatigue about this roster, this group. You know, Bohm is coming in on a contract year here. He'll be a free agent after the season. Had a disappointing year last year. Will back cleanup for them to start. Bryson Stott's a guy who I think has had a, you know, he had a really good last two months last year and he made some real changes at the plate they can point to. He's had a phenomenal spring as well, for whatever that's worth. He's, he's a guy who I think could have a, a much better year. I don't know if it's gonna be a big year, but it's gonna be a much better year. And then Trey Turner won the batting title last year and did sacrifice some power for, for batting average, but, you know, did a lot of things that they wanted him to do and played a much, much better shortstop. So it's still a good infield. I mean, even though they were, were really close to tearing it apart. It's a very weird, weird thing.
- [57:10]
A
Yeah. I was going to ask about Stott because, you know, I'm selective when it comes to using the term breakout candidate, but he has been a good player, but he has not had a WRC plus above league average. And it seems like he has the capability to do that and that he's one of the holdovers who maybe is not completely a known quantity because I guess that's what you're identifying there, that sentiment, because I still think of the Phillies as a very good team team, potentially a top five team talent wise, but they've had such continuity and lack of turnover. It's sort of the same Guys every year. And that's not really a bad thing. But maybe for fans there is a sort of fatigue when you just kind of keep running it back if you haven't gotten where you want to go, which is winning the World Series. And, and they've, you know, gotten close. Ish. But it's hard to argue, I guess, that this is as the best that they've been probably. So if it's just kind of how long can we sustain this? How long can we keep it going? How long will real muto be good? And can Harper bounce back and can Schwerber stay excellent and Turner? Right. It's just like, I guess that's a little less exciting when it's. How long can we cling to these guys who've been great, continuing to be great and fend off Father Time?
- [58:25]
D
A lot of people look at the, at this roster and say, I know what that guy is, or we know what he can be or what he was and what he isn't. And a couple of Phillies coaches say this to me all the time and they're not wrong. It's like it's so easy to pop the pimples that you see every day that are right in front of you and like, you do lose sight of, you know, the broader picture. And I, I do think this is a talented roster. I think there are very, very clearly some flaws. The outfield is, is not good. It has the potential to be one of the worst outfields in baseball ball. The starting rotation depth is non existent. If there is an injury or two in the rotation, I mean, they're, they're going to have some trouble, but this is probably the best bullpen that they've ever built, maybe, or at least in the last 15 years. And so there are some differences to this team. I know it looks a lot, a lot like last year's, but it's. I, I keep, I'm gonna keep saying it. I mean, like, I think it's still a good team. I really do. Because. And I'm sure we're getting this next. Like the starting pitching is really good. It's like really, really good.
- [59:35]
C
Yeah, well, let's just about to say, let's pop the pimple of the starting pitching. And now I'm more horrified than I am by raw milk. But, but let's talk about the starting pitching because you're right to say that there isn't a ton of depth behind this front five, but boy, is it a pretty special group. And maybe we can start with the step Forward that Christopher Sanchez took last year. He is the ace of this group, at least until Zach Wheeler comes back healthy. But my goodness, I think pretty much every number went in the right direction. He was a 6 1/2 win player. By our accounting at fan graphs, his ERA and his FIP were bang on each other. He struck out more guys, he walked fewer of them. He didn't give up very many home runs.
- [60:21]
B
He.
- [60:22]
C
Importantly for a team that did have Wheeler go down through 202 innings. So what did you see in the maturation of Sanchez? How did he get to be this guy?
- [60:33]
D
He realized he can be this guy. And like, it's such a. I mean, like, he, he bucks a trend in a lot of ways because he only throws three pitches.
- [60:42]
C
Right.
- [60:42]
D
You know, we're not talking about a guy here who has a deep arsenal who has these very drastically different plans against lefties and righties. He doesn't. He's got. And even the third pitch, the slider. Yeah. It's just. Okay. Hey, like, it's fine. There's some days where it's a plus pitch, some days where it's not. It's. That change up in sinker is just. It's an unbelievable combination. And the arm slot, for some reason, however it comes out, the arm action, it's just so good. It is so good. And I think he just, he got so confident. He got so confident in who he is as a pitcher, what he can do. And it was just such a delight to watch because he had. He knew he was better than everybody else. And in any other year where there's no Paul Skeens, this guy wins the Cy Young. And that is just absolutely insane to say that about Christopher Sanchez because a couple years ago he was on the verge of being out of the league.
- [61:36]
A
I think speaking of people who have contended for some Cy Youngs in their day, Zach Wheeler, he had surgery in September. Gosh. I'm just, I'm reflecting on all of the Philly stories we talked about.
- [61:48]
D
Think I've said it, I've said it on here before. They are never not interesting. It's.
- [61:52]
A
It's true. I mean, we had Garrett Stubbs and his embrace of the other white milk and then Zack Wheeler and. And his saving his tiny rib.
- [62:02]
C
The most normal thing that happened for them, honestly.
- [62:04]
D
Yeah, I know. I, I asked that question too, because it's not unusual. I always hear guys who will either have that surgery or similar surgery. It's like, yeah, you save. Guys save. They save the rib. Why not?
- [62:16]
A
Yeah. The rib is. It's small. It's a rib. Sounds big, but it's a tiny little thing. But even so, yep, Nick had some concerns.
- [62:24]
C
I didn't have concerns that were specific to Wheeler. As I said at the time, I understand that I am an outlier, but I don't. I think people should leave. They took it out for a reason. Leave it there. It's not. That's not your problem anymore. Zach.
- [62:39]
A
My God, Just a momento. You know, anyway, but more importantly, how and when will he pitch?
- [62:48]
D
Well, all off season, I had heard rumblings that Zach Wheeler was feeling so confident and so good that he was telling the Phillies, I will pitch on opening day for you. And I think they were like, that's great, Zach, but you're not. And just like, that's. Let's just slow it down a little bit. So he had the, quote, unquote, good thoracic outlet syndrome, the. The one that affects the veins, not the nerves. And I've gotten to know Zach Wheeler over the last few years, and he's not a guy who gets excited about a lot of things at the ballpark. So I was a little taken aback early this spring when I could tell he was excited. And I think he's excited because, you know, there's an element with this surgery and this and this. This diagnosis that, like, you don't really know how it's going to feel or how it's going to be. After the surgery. I think he's been feeling pretty good. And, you know, the proof is going to be whenever he comes back, like, what is this guy going to look like? We don't know that, but he's pretty confident right now, and he's been ramping up. I think he'll be back sometime in April. Might be late April, but he's not going to miss very much time.
- [64:00]
C
You just keep going down, down the line here.
- [64:03]
D
How about the guy who just signed for 135 million?
- [64:05]
C
I was just about to get Lordo, and, you know, he had always been intriguing, had shown promise. You could understand why they traded for him, but I have to imagine that everything about his 20, 25 exceeded their expectations, which probably contributes to the extension, right? Not just the quality of his starts, but the number of them, the number of innings he threw. So good on Lizardo for justifying that trade. How did this particular extension come together, and what are they expecting from him this year?
- [64:39]
D
I mean, I think it's an aggressive extension. There's no arguing that what he did last year was incredible. And yes, it did exceed all of their expectations. I mean, they're paying him, though, now, you know, 27 million a year starting next year. You know, like, he's one of the five or six best lefty stars in the game. And he might be. I don't know if I'm ready to totally anoint him as that yet. I think I would like to see another year like he had last year before doing that kind of contract. But also, like, I understand that they had to jump the gun if they wanted to sign him now before he went to free agency. So you got to do the deal now. You know, they gave him a sweeping slider Caleb cough. And the pitching coach has done some really good stuff here at the Phillies. And Lizardo might be now, I mean, Sanchez is the Mona Lisa, but Lizardo is. Give me your best other art analogy. But it was pretty good. I mean, a sweeping slider just unlocked a lot of different avenues for Lozardo against both lefties and righties. Last year. He stayed healthy. He held his velocity. I mean, in the playoffs, like, he looked every bit the part of a frontline starting pitcher and then came into relief, of course, in game four. Makeup is. Is real good. You know, he's sneaky. He's kind of. He's kind of easy on. He's like a really nice guy off the field. On the mound. I think they just love his demeanor. They think he's built a pitch in Philadelphia. There's questions about the durability for sure, and I think that's what gives me some pause about the deal. But the era looked big last year because he gave up 20 runs over the course of two starts.
- [66:16]
C
Yeah.
- [66:16]
D
Every other measurement, though, suggests that this guy was one of the best pitchers in baseball.
- [66:20]
A
I think year Sanchez can be the Mona Lisa and Luzardo can be the girl with a pearl earring. Maybe. Maybe that'll work. So tell us about Aaron Nola, who just shoved against Mexico in the WBC to bail out Team usa but didn't do that much shoving in the regular season last year. So. Talk about Wheeler. Gotta break down his longtime rotation mate here. Is there a comeback for Nola in the off coffee?
- [66:48]
D
I mean, he's already throwing harder than he did until, like, last August. I mean, he. I mean, what a thing. I mean, that outing for Italy, you know, the fate of three nations resting on Aaron Nola is very funny. I'm already imagining there's gonna be a lot of Aaron Nola Italy jerseys in South Philly this summer. He kind of is what he is right? I mean, I don't know. There's, there's no like real reinventing to do for Aaron. No Manola. I think he just needs to be better. And he did more long tossing and more work. I think in the off season he started getting going sooner because he's been a slow starter. I mean he was like 88, 89 last April and it just wasn't going to work. And his thing is like, well, I do, I do a build up because I want to get to 200 innings every year. I think in, in their mind, in his mind now, it's like, well, what if it was 180 innings or 175innings innings and they were like 20 better than the 200 you used to do? I, I think that at the very least going into this season he is starting from a better base. And whether that leads to him being, you know, a top of the rotation pitcher again, I doubt it. But if he is a steady middle of the rotation presence, given what else they have, I think they would be ecstatic.
- [68:04]
C
I feel like we've been cheated out of the Andrew Painter we were promised. And I'm wondering what you think the odds are of us getting back there because a couple of years ago it seemed like he was going to make the opening day rotation. He goes down with injury. It takes a while for them to decide for him to get Tommy John for reasons that I think were understandable at the time, but it meant he missed a lot of time. And then his 2025 was pretty underwhelming. It seems like the fastball is not playing as well. The arm slot is different. Secondary stuff isn't as strong, sharp. How has Painter look to you in spring and what are your expectations for him this season?
- [68:41]
D
Ah, hard to tell. Like, I mean, he checks all the boxes, right? I mean, he looks like it's supposed to look, you know, the velocity, I mean the feel for his secondary stuff is, is, is pretty good. I mean, I think, I think that is still the case. He's been throwing this change up that he started using last year, which is, it's a, it's a pretty good pitch. It's like his fourth or fifth pitch now. You know, there's a lot of questions about the fastball and a lot of people who are not fans of the shape of the pitch. And before he got hurt, this was the separator. It's like he had a fastball that had the characteristics of, you know, an elite major league fastball and they have worked with him to raise his arm slot back up. And he is doing that. It's been hard to tell this spring because I think they have essentially told him to not overdo it because three years ago when he was 19 and they were like opening the doors like, hey buddy, like, you know, we're not ruling out that like this guy could break camp as a 19 year old. He overdid it. I mean like he came into camp like just way too ready, way too amped up and he blew out. And so I think that they have gotten into his head and I think he knows his body better now where he's like, I am going to ramp up and like the velocity has been there. I mean it's been like 96 to 90. I get it. The shape is not, some people would say the shape is not ideal. I don't know if that's in. It's not a consensus yet. I'm willing, I want to see what it looks like. I think that as a rookie, if he's, you know, essentially league average as their fifth starter again, I think they would consider it a success. And I think he can be more than that. And I still think that his, his ceiling and his projection is much higher than that. But I get why it has to be a little more measured. Injured right now.
- [70:24]
A
So it is certainly still a strong rotation. I think it's the number three projected unit in the league according to fan crafts. But there's a little more uncertainty, a little less depth there. As you alluded to, obviously the departure of Suarez saps some of the depth. So you're counting on Wheeler to come back and be healthy and you're hoping Painter holds up and Nola bounces back. And for the time being, you're entrusting Taiwan Walker with a rotation spot was sort of a swingman last year. So what would the plan be if they need to dip into a 6th, 7th, 8th starter? Is there anyone else out there?
- [71:02]
D
Not really. I do think they will sign at least one pitcher to a minor league deal at the end of camps here when there's cuts from other camps. Bryce Wilson is in camp and he'll go to aaa. You know, he's pitching the majors before they brought Tucker Davidson back from Korea. He'll go to AAA for them. It's not a lot. There's just not a lot there. I mean, they, they are really thin rotation wise.
- [71:28]
C
They're not thin in the bullpen. How about that? They're not always able to say that. So obviously you have Duran in the Back. But tell us about this group. It has some new faces. We had Brad Keller come in, they made some trades. Tell us about the, the group they have here as the. They, you know, get to that fantastic closer intro.
- [71:47]
D
Yeah, I mean, I, I think like that's one of the things that's being overlooked is that yes, they ended the year with John Durant in the bullpen, but they didn't have him for a full year. Yeah, and having this guy for full year, it just, it really does change a lot of what they're going to do because there will be more set roles, which I know the cool thing in the league has been to do the, you know, we've got our group of leverage guys and you know, they'll pitch in the biggest moments of the game. And I think it works for some and it doesn't work for everybody. I think a lot of the relievers I've now talked to over the years are like, yeah, it helps to know like generally when you're going to pitch. And that's not like rocket science or anything. But I, I think the Phillies are going to have a little bit more of a defined bullpen. And it starts with Duron, who's looked great this spring, Brad Keller, you know, what a thing. I mean, like he ends up signing for $22 million and I mean, after being on a minor league deal with the Cubs. And it's hard to quibble with the deal, at least for now because like, you look at, you know, some of the underlying stuff with Keller and I mean, this guy was maybe the best reliever in the sport like in the second half of the year last year, and he's going to be the eighth inning guy. And then now you get into some of the more familiar guys, but they're all knocked down a little bit. Like Jose Alvarado is not the closer anymore, right. And he's going to be your seventh inning guy. And Orion Kirkering is not your, your top right handed option. He's going to be the sixth or seventh inning guy. You know, they like Tanner Banks as a left on left guy. He had a really, really strong year last year as a, as a kind of a middle reliever, you know, middle, you know, medium leverage kind of guy. They traded Matt Strom away for Jonathan Bolen, who's a big hard throwing righty who's, you know, probably ticketed as a middle reliever. I think they're optimistic about him, but they've just built better depth. They have like a dozen different guys competing for two spots in the bullpen this spring, and they didn't have that kind of competition last year. And it showed early in the year when they had some injuries, they had the suspension of Alvarado. They had a lot of holes they had to fill, and they did not have depth to fill it. And I think they're, they have raised the bar in terms of their overall bullpen depth, and that is, I think, really important for the Phillies.
- [74:06]
C
I hesitate to bring this up. It seems it feels almost unseemly. But how is Orion Kirkering? Because I think a lot of guys who had their season end the way that his did might have asked to get traded out of town rather than have to face that home crowd again. How has he been able to sort of metabolize the end of last year?
- [74:28]
D
Yeah, I actually went down to Florida in January and spent a little bit of time with him and, and wrote about it, and I think he's in a good spot. That said, I mean, you're right. I mean, this is a tough one. And I, I think he's in the mindset of, like, this isn't going to define my career, and it shouldn't because he is a young pitcher with a lot of promise.
- [74:52]
C
Yeah.
- [74:52]
D
And will, will they begin the season trying to find softer spots for him? No doubt. You know, I, I, I don't think he'll be pitching the eighth inning in the first week of the season. I, I don't know how people are going to react. It's a good question. I think, I think on opening day, I think the reaction is going to be overwhelmingly positive. But what happens when he blows his first game this year? You know, is it, is it immediately going to be so toxic and, and it's impossible to overcome? I don't think so, because I, I have gotten to know him, and I think, I think he's the kind of guy who can take this and see it for what it is. It was a terrible, horrible moment that you wish upon no one. And I think he sees it as that, as just a moment and not the definition.
- [75:38]
A
When Dave Dombrowski got to this team, he had the reputation as someone who comes in and finishes the job and trades all the prospects and signs veterans and tries to make a run. And I wonder, now that this team is getting older, Dabrowski himself will turn 70 right around the trade deadline. Are they committed to keeping the younger guys? They do have Crawford, Andrew Painter, Aidan Miller, for that matter, is there any chance, depending on the way things go prior to the deadline, that they Might consider parting with one of them to sort of put the team over the hump. And, hey, it's, you know, one last hurrah and we gotta press our advantage while the going's good. Or do you think they're pretty. Pretty committed to having some sort of youth infusion that sticks here so that this team does not collapse in a couple years?
- [76:27]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think those three guys, they're committed to keeping. Now, anybody else in your organization with a pulse could be traded in July and, and. And might be traded in July, probably for an outfielder in July. I think they've gotten to the point where they have to be committed to these, to those top three guys. You know, they went really far down the road, the road a couple years ago with the White Sox and Garrett Crochet, and it would have taken at least two of them to get that deal done. And they were willing at some point to do it. And in the white. You know, there's a lot. There was a lot to it, but if they were not willing to do it for Crochet at that time, I, I don't think that there's any deal right now that would rise that level. You know, Miller missed. Has missed all of spring because of a nagging back injury, which is not. Not great. But people I've talked to more and more are. Are outside of the organization, are. Are really high on Aiden Miller, and I think they need to see it through. Just because, Ben, like you said, the makeup of the roster, they. They have not. And, and, and your colleague Michael Bauman, you know, pointed this out so expertly at the beginning of the off season. I mean, they have just been so bad at infusing younger talent into the roster. And I'm not saying that. That this team has to be totally homegrown. It's not. I mean, I think they've used some of their prospects really well to make trades.
- [77:46]
C
Yeah.
- [77:46]
D
To get a gala glazardo, to get a guy like Duron. But. But they need to have some infusion, some contributions from younger players at some point. And that's why I think they have to be committed to these three guys.
- [77:57]
A
All right, well, tell us what would constitute success for the Phillies in 2026?
- [78:04]
C
Avoid a listeria outbreak. Wait, no, that's wrong. I mean, it's not wrong, but it's maybe not top of mind, I guess,
- [78:12]
D
winning the pennant, but. But I think every Phillies fan would probably tell me that that's too short and, And I hate it. I mean, it's just not Fair for it to be World Series or bust. I hate that. But. But it just feels like, you know, Wheeler's got this year and next year, and we don't know if there's gonna be any baseball next year. It just feels like they have to go for far. They. They have to get back to the World Series this year. I mean, that. That's. It feels unfair, but I think that's. That's where I land.
- [78:39]
A
All right, well, we'll see if things settle down at all from an off the field perspective. With Castanos gone and Matt Strom, whom I believe you reported was a source of some friction with the team, too. And maybe Harper bounces back and has another great year and they put the Dombrowski comments behind them. Who knows? Maybe it quiets down a little bit. But they are the Phillies, after all, so I guess I wouldn't bet on it. Which must make them an interesting team to cover at the very least.
- [79:10]
C
Always.
- [79:10]
D
Especially Harper this year. I mean, like, whatever he does, right, Whether it's good or bad, it's going to be truly fascinating.
- [79:17]
A
Yeah. We didn't even get into the Johan Rojas suspension.
- [79:21]
B
Right.
- [79:21]
A
Which, I mean, maybe that doesn't change their plans all that much. If. If they were.
- [79:25]
D
It doesn't.
- [79:26]
A
Yeah. Okay. Well, sorry, Ohad.
- [79:31]
D
You.
- [79:31]
A
You won't be missed, evidently. But. But you'll be missed on this podcast. Matt, we were happy to have you. And sorry to make you speak. I didn't know that your voice was in this state, but you. You showed up and you fought through it. And now you can get back in your hyperbaric chamber and recover before your next episode of Philli's Therapy.
- [79:52]
D
I always appreciate the invitation, and I would never want to disappoint. Point.
- [79:57]
A
All right, Matt. Mentioning Tom Brady made me check to see what's going on with TB12 these days. Touchdown. Tom's Wellness brand. I had missed this, but back in January, he said, TB12 is winding down. Why wind down now? This seems like the time to ramp up. Evidently, it's being folded into the no Bull Fitness brand, which TB12 merged with a while back. And you know, that'll be based on sound science because the name is no Bull. Anyway, that's the Phillies for you. Now we'll take a quick break, and we'll be back with Sam Blum to talk about a team that never does anything. Anything odd or off putting at all. The Los Angeles Angels.
- [80:30]
C
Well, it's moments like these that make
- [80:32]
A
you ask, how can you not be pedantic about baseball. If baseball were different, how different would it be on the case with light
- [80:42]
B
ripping all analytically, cross check and compile,
- [80:46]
A
find a new understanding.
- [80:48]
B
Not effectively. While I Can you not be pedantic?
- [80:54]
A
Yes. When it comes to baseball, how can you not be pedantic? Well, last episode we spoke to Spencer Nussbaum, who had technically not yet rejoined the beat. This time we're talking to someone who technically just left the beat. Sam Blum, who has covered the Angels for the past five or so years for the Athletic, is now no longer longer covering them. He is free. He is free to write about anything. And there was a tweet in response to his announcement that he was shifting his focus for the site. And someone said, I appreciated your coverage. Good luck. Hopefully you're still doing this year's team preview for Effectively Wild as a final goodbye. And I said that to you, and I said, sam, you don't have to. You're off the hook. You are not obligated to talk about Jack Kahanowitz anymore if you don't want to. That's not your job job. But you wanted to do it. You wanted one more Angels preview under your belt. So I suppose this is your. Your last act as Angels beat writer.
- [81:56]
B
I just can't stay away, you know? It is.
- [82:00]
A
Well, it's good because for years, I think the knock on you was basically like, sam, stop holding back. You know, give us. Give us your real take on the Angels here. You're just. You're tiptoeing around everything, you know, you're afraid to say anything critical about the team. And now, now that you're off the beat, this will be Sam Blum unleashed. And you can finally speak your mind and maybe observe that the Angels are not a model major league organization.
- [82:26]
B
What are you talking about? They're incredible. I'll never stop my loyalty.
- [82:32]
A
And you'll still be around the ballpark. I know you'll still be at a lot of Angels games and with your finger on the pulse. It's a weak pulse, but whatever it is, you'll have your finger on it. But because your responsibilities have changed. You have been at the wbc, and so I did want to quickly ask you about that. Just, you're. As we speak, it's. It's 4:00am Tokyo time, so I don't know how your. Your body clocks.
- [82:55]
B
It feels like it. It feels. I was just thinking. I was like, man, it's. I'm. It's way too early to be absolutely exhausted, but, yeah, I'm not used to this type of travel. So I just got back yesterday.
- [83:05]
A
Yeah, both of our previewers are just doing their best with body conditions that are not ideal today. But tell us how it was, what did you see? What was the atmosphere like? What were your observations?
- [83:17]
B
You know, it' baseball like, you've really never seen it. I mean, I'm very cynical about almost everything. And honestly, I want to be cynical about going and watching the wbc, but for me, it's just. It was so cool and I can't really find any fault in it. It was. It's like, I mean, you feel like you're watching game seven of the World Series when the team, Taiwan is out there, or Chinese Taipei, whatever they call them, you know, this, like that, that fan base. I mean, it's like a religious experience to be watching their games. You know, when you're even like the Chechen team, you know, I mean, this, these are. These are guys that aren't. Aren't big league ballplayers or even close to it. But the support they get there is insane. And it's just the way the game is played. Like, what makes a team successful in that environment, I think is different than maybe what people expect it to be. I think it's a lot about roster continuity and good coaching, and it's not always the most talented team. I think that's what makes the whole thing fun. So being in Japan was incredible. The baseball culture there is something you just kind of have to be there to really understand. And I was really appreciative that I was able to go. It was fun.
- [84:22]
A
Yeah. The one fault you found, I guess, is that because it's exclusively on Netflix there, not everyone can participate or partake in that atmosphere. They might not be able to see it.
- [84:32]
B
I think it's a big issue, honestly and honest. Like, we don't really know the numbers on it yet, But I mean, 100 million people watched out of 125 million people in Japan. Japan watched at least some of the WBC three years ago. And. And I think that number will end up being far, far, far lower this time around because Netflix is, you know, we love Netflix here in the US I think people in Japan love Netflix too, to some extent, but it's not nearly as widespread. And I think that there's a lot of people that just won't get a streaming service or a subscription service or paywall type of service. So it's just more of a cultural thing. And as a result, there are a lot fewer people watching the WBC and You have to ask yourself is this, I mean, MLB took a significant, you know, rights deal to be able to air the games out there, but ultimately, I don't know if that was about growing the game or about, you know, growing the rights deal. So it's certainly an interesting topic. I know it's not what we're here to talk about today, but I find it fascinating and be curious to see, you know, what the ultimate result is of that in terms of how many people were able to watch the games this, this time around, you know, in Japan.
- [85:37]
C
Well, I'm sure that the atmosphere on opening day in Anaheim will be similar to what you just experienced in Japan. Before we get into any of the particular moves that the Angels made in the off season, because they did bring some guys in, they pretty profoundly reshaped their bullpen. But I'm curious what your sense is of how this franchise understands itself and whether there is any gap between how the front office understands, understands the team and its goals and how ownership understands the team and its goals. Because it wouldn't be an Angels off season without Artie Marino saying something that got people mad, including people on this podcast emphasizing that fans don't really care about winning. It's affordability. I'm sure affordability matters, but I imagine that even moms taking their kids to Angels games would like to see a winning product on the field. So how does this team sort of understand where it fits in the competitive cycle?
- [86:34]
B
I don't think that it does have any sort of understanding of that. Right. Like there's not. They didn't even know what television network they were going to be on until like yesterday. I mean, it's. This is a team and a franchise that just kind of operates like on a day to day basis now. I'm actually really curious to see if there's any type of change with Molly Jolly operating the team now as opposed to John Carpino. I think people around the Angels really respect Molly. She's been in a high ranking position for a while, but she's more been in the background, at least from my perspective. But she's really an important figure. So I'll be curious to see now in a more prominent role if there is any sort of change, if she has Artie's ear in a way that. Or can leverage Artie's inclinations in a way maybe that's more productive than we seen. Because I think that's really what it comes down to with the Angels. Like can somebody get Artie to do the right thing and Operate the team correctly, you know, I don't know. I mean, she might. I'm not sure what level of personnel decision power she'll have, like, when it comes to the front office. I mean, Perry Menazian is now in a sixth year in the job and has done quite poorly in that role. You know, so there's a lot of things I'll be curious to see kind of how they play out over the next year. Two years with maybe her operating the team more. But I don't think as of now, I mean, there's no plan. Right. I remember the very first question I asked Perry at the winter meetings was about when they made this Taylor Ward trade for Grayson Rodriguez. They saved about $13 million because Grayson's going to make the major league minimum while Taylor Ward's in his last year of arbitration. I think he ended up making about 12.5 million or something like that. So it's about a $12 million difference. And pair was very insistent that that money was going to be spent on other parts of the team. I think the whole idea surrounding Anthony Rendon getting his money deferred was so that they could spend money on. At least that's what the front office thought was going to happen. They could spend money this. This year, this offseason, on a payroll for 20, 26, but that never happened. You know, you could blame the TV deal all you want. I kind of roll my eyes at that. I think that that's not really a valid excuse for not spending on the roster. I mean, everybody had that issue this offseason and people spent on their rosters. So I don't think the front office really knows anything at any point about where the team's actually headed and that. I don't know how you run a team like that. It's just. You get to the point where I think the Angels are kind of headed in the direction of what we saw the Rockies last year, the White Sox two years ago. I'm not saying they're going to lose 120 games or whatever, but you're heading in a direction where if you don't. If you don't change course soon, that is where this will go.
- [89:04]
C
And do you think if they don't change course, that Minazian is in some peril? Because there are GMs that have had better runs, that have found themselves searching for new work, and that hasn't yet come to pass for Perry. So what kind of Runway does he really have here?
- [89:21]
B
It's hard to know. I mean, I think Artie has kind of said positive things about Perry, at least publicly. So. And then after Artie, you have to ask yourself, okay, who really wants this job now? Who wants to come do this? So if you have a belief that what he's doing is good, then why change it? I personally just don't see it. I mean, it's no disrespect to the gm. I just, like, at some point, you have either results or you don't, and the results have just not been there. Somebody did a survey. It was Lance. I'm blanking on his last name. Did the survey, like, reconducted. Talked, like, 60, 70 people in front offices. And, like, the people rated the Angels pitching production and their development is, like, worse than the Rockies. I think that's just the reputation people have have or that people have. People view the Angels kind of having at this point, they can't develop pitching, they can't develop a roster. They can't really put a winning product on the field. So the evidence is there. This is not going well. And, you know, I mean, you're seeing it in the coaching staff, coaching turnover, you know, it's just. It's. It's all pretty chaotic and bad. So unless something kind of miraculous happens this year, I think it'll be worse than we've ever seen. And so they've, you know, they've kind of earned that through all the actions they've taken and through just kind of the way they operate.
- [90:34]
A
Yep. No longer mincing words. I can tell.
- [90:36]
B
I know. See, this is what happens. Lance Brzowski. Sorry. I knew his. Yes. Yeah, I was doing it. A complicated last name.
- [90:45]
A
Yeah.
- [90:45]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [90:46]
A
Well, whether Perry is in peril or not, I'm sure he will miss you because you and he had some. Some great conversations over the years.
- [90:54]
B
So I respect him. I just. I just don't think at this point this isn't working. It's not working. So, I mean, you can't sit here and tell me it is. And I'm not saying you are just saying, like, that's, like. You know, I think they try to convince us of that at times when you're, you know, you have these scrums, you. You know, you hear what the gms to say about the team. But, like, it's what it is. You know, the record is what the record is.
- [91:13]
A
Yes. I am certainly not sitting here and telling you that this is working, but we. We started by talking about TV accessibility. So that's been an issue for the Angels, too, or at least there's been a change as you referenced. So last week there was a report that they were planning to launch Station and that's something that a few teams have done rather than have MLB take it over. The Rangers, the tigers, the Braves, etc. And the Angels were supposed to do something similar, but then no, actually they're staying on FanDuel Sports Network West. So do you have any idea of what happened there?
- [91:49]
B
Well, I think that is. I think that is kind of what this is what they'd been hoping to do with my. I think from my understanding, okay. Was kind of a stat like this is. This is I think a version of starting their own thing. I'm not sure if they're going to change the name or do change the graphics or whatever, but this is them putting on their own product. From my understanding, you can correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't really like. I think part of this is I've not been in spring training, I've not been fully around the operation for the, you know, for, for a good little bit. So. But from my understanding they've been hoping to do this. They wanted to get the LA Kings on board. That was kind of the hold up from my. From what I understand, understood and I think that that's kind of worked itself out. So we'll see. I mean they're going to have this pretty much the same overall product. I mean in terms of the broadcasters, I think they maybe will even expand some of their pre and post games. So this is kind of what they wanted. I will be curious to see how it looks, how it plays out, if there are any issues they wanted to avoid. MLB broadcasting the games and that is where it is right now. I just don't know in terms of if they're. How the like the name, if there's going to be a name change to the network or what. Exactly. But this is what they've been looking to do ever since, you know, the everybody's kind of TV situation under Main Street Sports Group kind of fell apart earlier this off season.
- [93:02]
A
So yeah, I think Front Office Sports reported that they're keeping the name and that they'll stay on the same channels and distribution and everything. But they're basically just buying out the RSN the 50% interest in it. So I guess functionally they sort of started their own but basically piggybacked on the existing thing.
- [93:22]
B
Yeah, I guess, I mean part of. I mean it's. This is kind of. Again, this is just like not something I've been super keyed in on for the last couple weeks. But from my understanding, this is kind of what they've been hoping to do. But I, at the end of the day, I mean, I'll be. If they're putting on their own product, you know, we'll just see how it looks. We. I've. They've had issues in the past, I mean, if you recall, like they wouldn't send their broadcasters on the road a few years ago. I mean they've made decisions, they've made cost cutting decisions that I think have impacted the broadcasts and like specifically the pre and post game show and things like that that have really been cut back on. So, you know, we'll see how it looks. I'll be curious. You know, not broadcasting any spring training games is a kind of a slap in the face of the fans. I mean, you know, I personally would never in a million years watch a spring training game and then I didn't have to. But I get why fans like it. I mean this is their first, this is their entry point to the team before the season starts. I mean they want us, they want to get a little look at the pitchers, they want to get a look at the club. The die hards really care about this stuff, you know, and one of the few things the Angels have always done well is broadcast all their spring training games and now they're doing none of them. And so, you know, it's just kind of a long one, another list and a bullet point, a long line of just blah and kind of treating the fans like they don't really care about them. And that's been kind of, I think the definition of this offseason.
- [94:32]
C
Well, on that cheerful note, maybe we can talk about the team that they will be able to see see when the season gets underway and I don't know, we'll, we'll lift him up. We'll start, we'll start with a relative high point, which is Zach Neto, who played well for the Angels last year. He at least hit well. He was a three win player by our reckoning and respectable at the plate and not much to write home about from a defensive perspective. So as he enters his fourth year in the league, his third full season, what, what should Angels fans expect from him? Do you see, see there being any potential for him sort of growing in the field and being able to do that while sustaining the success he's had at the plate?
- [95:17]
B
You know, when I think about Zach Netto, I kind of, and it's not to anyone to start on a high Point. But what I kind of get to is like, this is the now to the face of your franchise. And there's like, there's like not really any Runway for anyone to have hope that he's signing a long term extension with the stage team. If I were him, I'd be kind of frustrated with where the direction of the club is. You know, I mean, I saw Bill Shaken from the LA Times interview him about this and it's just, it just, it kind of just seemed like, yeah, like we'll see. You know, it's. There's not really. There's hasn't really been any movement on that front and, and you know, I think, you know, you look at a Mike Trout like this guy who's kind of been the, the guy in Anaheim forever passing the torch on. I mean, that's how you want to look at this. Like Zach Netto. I'm not saying he's Mike Trout, but he has the chance to be like a star. You know, a major, perennial, big league all star. I think he's a really, really good player and he's kind of had that has that swagger and has that, you know, ability to connect with fans that is special. And you're right. I mean, he is their best player. I mean, he's a really, really. I mean that's. If you look at all the moves that this front office has made, the best thing that they've done was draft Zach Neto. I think at 13 in 2022, when you know that at the time was, you know, he wasn't projected to get go that, that fast that early and, and he's turned into maybe the best player from that first round, so. Or at least the best pick from that first round. So to me, like, it's just kind of sad that like, you know, you're just kind of counting down the, the years at this point to see where it head where it goes. But are the Angels ever going to win with him on their roster? I mean, that this is just kind of the, the history and the pattern that the Angels are creating, which is they have young, fun, exciting players that they can't win, win with. And it's because they're not building around them in any way and they're not extending them and they're just kind of like letting them be good, marketing them in ways that I'm sure will sell bobbleheads and T shirts and all that. But, you know, fans want to see wins and if you can't build a roster around them and you can't find ways to keep them in, you know, in their, in their uniform, then what value do they really have anyway? I mean, it's just. They're just good players on a bad team and that's, that's not fun.
- [97:14]
A
Well, Trout, of course, is not quite ready to move on. In fact, he's not quite ready to move out of center field in. And when he said that he wanted to be back in center field and that he'd gotten a go ahead, I wondered whether that would actually hold up. But he has been a stalwart in center this spring. So the question of course is will he hold up? And the answer to that hasn't really been yes for quite some time. So this move, what do you make of this? He seemed to think that or he made the case at least that somehow center was. Would be less wear and tear on his body than playing a corner, which is hard to square with what we know. And of course he ended up relegated to DH for most of last season anyway. So I know he was sort of optimistic about having figured something out in his swing, which he has been talking about for years at this point. So what's the outlook and how do you think this center field return went down?
- [98:11]
B
I think like for me, with Mike, the biggest thing is his offense. I mean, he's couldn't, you know, it's just I kind of almost roll my eyes with the defensive stuff like, yeah, right field, center. It's just, I think whatever, right. Like he, he was all. We spent all last spring kind of talking about how he's done. Now he's moving right field only for him to DH for the last five months of the season. So for me it's like, can Mike try one, stay on the field and two, can he, can he hit? Because really from all the beginning of August through the end of last season, except, you know, save for the last, he was pretty good the last season week of the season. I mean he was not a good major league offensive player by any stretch for almost two months and in fact was a pretty bad one. And you know, from the Angels have five more full seasons of Mike Trout and they're paying him a lot. And it's already kind of gotten to a point where it's like uncomfortable at how we talk about him. And you know, he's the greatest player in their history. He's one of the greatest players in major league history. He could go over the rest of his career and that will never change. But you know, you don't want that to happen. You don't want this to be a sad, slow decline of a once great player. And I don't. And I think, you know, Mike's had a little bit of a hard time kind of reconciling, getting a little older. Like, what does that look like? How do you, you know, adjust? So you're still a very productive big league player. And it's not to say he was, he was an above average big league player last year. He was perfectly good. I mean, and you know, the reasons that they are losing is never really has anything to do with him if he's on the field. You know, I still think that's the big question. I mean, how much offense does he have? Like, can he find ways to avoid the strikeouts? I mean, that was, that was a huge part of his season last year. There's, there's those numbers are going up. You know, you got to find ways to find a stopgap to that. You know, you got to find ways to still have power, still be able to hit line drives, have some speed. I know that that's been something he's wanted to bring back a little bit is his speed. And I saw that he hit like 30 miles an hour on a top sprint speed or whatever the other day, which, which was something he'd kind of set out to do. So there is a way, there is a world in which Mike Trout is still a good big league player and maybe a well above average big league player. But I just don't think the biggest difference here is whether it's in center or right. If he's more comfortable in center, then that's good for the Angels. Because really what's most important is can you get Joe Adele to one of those corners? Because he's not really good in center and you can't really afford to put him there. And then it comes down to, well, what do think you do with Jorge Soler, who you're paying a lot of money to the theory you kind of need in the middle of your order and cannot play defense, you know, can't play defense every single game. So that hurt him last year. So there's kind of a conundrum there. And so if Mike's able to play center, that changes a lot of things for them for the positive, but we'll see how it all plays out. And you know, like I said last year, he spent a lot of time playing dh, and I don't know where that, if that's going to be what
- [100:53]
A
happens again this year, by the way, I think it was 30ft per second that he hit or almost hit.
- [100:58]
B
Sorry, 30 miles an hour.
- [100:59]
A
Yeah, yeah. I told you, even USADE bolt didn't quite get there.
- [101:03]
B
But I'm telling you, I, I, it's 4:00am for me, so put that down
- [101:07]
A
to the jet lag. Yeah, yeah.
- [101:10]
C
Well, I wanted to ask about Adele because, you know, I think that if you look at the top line results for him last season, unquestioned success, at least at the plate, you're right that, you know, he looked quite stretched at in center, but there were some pretty dramatic first and second half splits. He wasn't a below average hitter in the second half, but there was a pretty precipitous decline relative to what he was able to do in the first half. He still hit almost 40 home runs. But for a guy who hit almost 40 home runs and had a 112 WRC plus, you might hope that he could do a bit better than 1.2 war. So what went right for Adele last year and what do you think could go right for him this year? And the answer might just be he gets to go play in a corner.
- [101:53]
B
Well, I think that's part of him. And you asked about the war. I think his, you know, his defensive numbers and center were really bad, so that doesn't help. And Beato, he's also like, you're right, like, he hits a lot of home runs, but he also like, has some offensive deficiencies. He just goes on heaters. I mean, that's, that is, I mean, if you look at his June last year, I think he had like 12 or 13 home runs. And just, he just, he just kind of has those stretches where he's the best hitter in baseball and like, you know, will hit home runs almost every night. But you know, when he's going right. I mean, it's not really the home runs I'm looking at. It's like the walks. It's, it's, it's that it's just kind of not chasing and, and putting together better at bats that will eventually lead to him and his power becoming way more accentuated. But he can go through long stretches of just chasing and striking out and, you know, being that guy that I think everyone was like, oh man, this is, this guy's, that just that bust. So he, he's had, he has those stretches, but he also has some really, really impressive ones where it's, you know, I mean, if you get 37 home runs in the big leagues, you're, you're a big league hitter in my opinion. I know that there are probably certain exceptions to that over the course of history, but Joe Adele is a perfectly fine defensive player in right field at this point. And so if you can play him there, I think that 1.2 war is probably closer to, you know, 3 or something like that. And that's a, that's a better season and you know, certainly one that you kind of to be had to like. He's, he's, he's done the job. So I don't know if he's a big league superstar or not. I think that's maybe what his goal would be and you know, can, can, can he kind of put it all together? I mean, I think I'd be very curious to see how his season goes. There's a couple players on this team that I think are just really interesting in that front, like Nolan Shonowell. Like, you know, is there, is there another step there to be taken? I mean, you know, there are players on that team that I think could be really good and Joe Adele is one of them, you know, but they just have, they don't have the full package yet. And if there's any hope for this team to not be like in the cellar, it's going to kind of require a lot of these guys to have career years and just take that next step. That, that's just kind of the name of the game for the Angels every year is can so and so do this? Can they prove this, can they do that? And if everything goes right, then maybe it works. But it's Adele's kind of case in point for that.
- [103:54]
A
Yeah, Dave Kingman, who was once briefly an angel, he had a 37 homer season once in which he had negative 0.5 fancrafts war. So it, it can be done.
- [104:03]
B
That's what I'm saying. There's some rare exceptions to that, to that 37 home run rule, but typically you're usually in a good spot.
- [104:09]
A
Yeah, unless you're Kingman or, or Dante Bichette in pre humidor cores or something. That's, it's, it's tough not to be semi valuable at least.
- [104:17]
B
It's like Dante Bichette had like one season where he had like one 30 RBIs and like minus two wins. I mean, it's insane.
- [104:24]
A
Yes, defense was not his calling card either. Anyway, another of the young guys that the Angels have been hoping to build around is Logan Ohapi. Hopping to build around, but he has not really delivered either. I've been pretty high on him too, and there have been Times when he's looked good, but last year was not one of them. Certainly late last year, it got really, really rough for Logan o'.
- [104:46]
D
Hara.
- [104:46]
A
Hoppy. So what happened and what are the prospects for him to be better?
- [104:52]
B
You know, there's a couple things with him. I. I think a lot of it's mental, to be honest with you, and I think he'd probably tell you the same thing. But, you know, even like at the end of last year, the interim manager, Ray Montgomery kind of made a comment about how, you know, kind of alluding to maybe Hoppy needing to develop maybe a little slightly better relationships with pitchers, you know, at least on the field, and like, not needing to be best friends with everybody, but just kind of having that dynamic with your pitching skills, staff that kind of making it seem like he. That wasn't really there. And then I talked to a Hoppy earlier, early in the off season, because he wanted to respond to that and he was very, you know, defensive, I think, of that idea, and felt like he had those relationships. But, you know, ultimately, if. If that's kind of the perception that people have of you, like, there's probably, like, at least something that can be worked on. If I had to guess, you know, pulley. Like, there is. He's ingratiating himself with people, and I think, like, being really present with people that I think it just. That's the kind of thing I think that will help him. I mean, he really had awful defensive stats behind the plate in a lot of fronts. Now, I don't know if. If the abs kind of help him a little bit or, you know, maybe make it so it's less of a problem. But, I mean, he had just a really, really poor catching season and he had a really poor offensive season. So I think that he is the guy this year, but it's going to be incumbent on him to be the guy, you know, in order to keep that. That job. I don't think. I don't think he's kind of earned the ability to just be the guy forever here. And he needs to. He needs to show early on that, like, this is. This is a, you know, something he could handle. He's going to improve. You know, the Angels have hired a manager who's a catcher. They brought back Max Dassey, who's teammates with, who's, you know, really great defensive catcher to be the catching coach. So they have people there that are there to help them. But they also did last year, they had Sal Fasano, you know, they had Jerry Naron I mean, so it's going to be on. Oh, Hoppy. To figure it out. He's kind of given some quotes I saw to the local reporters about just, you know, finding his love of catching again. But, you know, he's gonna have to lay off sliders. He's going to have to, you know, be just, you know, have some of his power. I mean, he hit 14 home runs in the first six weeks last season and then the last four and a half months he had five total home runs. He just completely fell off the face of the earth as a hitter and it just. That's not going to fly for much longer. I think he's going to have to figure it out and I think he knows that. So, you know, we'll see what happens. I have confidence in him. I do think he is someone that has this in him and can figure it out. And you know, out of all the guys on this team that I think maybe need to prove something, he's probably the guy I feel decent about. But, you know, we'll see.
- [107:21]
C
Christian Moore joined a long tradition at this point of Angels position players who were drafted and then debuted in the year after they were drafted and it didn't go great. He dealt with injury, so that probably complicated things for him. But I know he's been working out at third base even though he was a second baseman last year. So what did you see for more and what do you think a realistic expectation is for his sophomore campaign?
- [107:47]
B
I don't know. I mean, you know, he's. Yeah, I agree with you. It wasn't great. I mean he's just, I mean there was just a lot of swing and miss in that lineup last year and I don't know how much of that was approach. I mean they've obviously got a new coach for coaching staff, so they, you know, there's going to have to be changes to just overall team approach when it comes to hitting. You can't just have like six guys in your lineup that are essentially three true outcomes. I mean, they were one of the top home run hitting teams in baseball and one and they were like this, they struck out the second most times in the history of the sport as a team. And Moore was a part of that. Not, you know, saying it was his fault by any means, but like, I think he was a reflection of the issue. Right. Like he just struck out a lot. So we'll see. I mean, I think think he's, you know, I think some of it's been complicated. I mean, you know, the, the Rise of Connor Griffin as like the top prospect in baseball, I think doesn't, you know, probably makes things more. Puts a little more pressure on him. He was. Christian Moore was taken eighth by the Angels and the Pirates took Griffin nine. So you know, it's like you kind of. Now that becomes part of his narrative, you know, whether it was completely against, you know, his will or whatever. Right. But like that, that's something that will now be focused on by the fan base. And so, you know, you gotta, you gotta perform. I think that's. This is a season. I mean, I mean he was, he had a lot of clutch hits and the few hit, you know, I wouldn't say few hits but like, you know, some of that, some of the better moments he had. I mean he had I think like a really exciting walk off home run. Like he hit a lot of late home runs that brought the team back into games. It's in there. I think he can be a really special player. You don't get taken eighth by accident. But you know, it also, I agree with you. Wasn't like the ideal start, but you know, it's. Not everyone follows that trajectory of coming up and being great right away. And he seems like a winner when you just kind of like talk with him. He's got a lot of confidence to him, he's got a lot of talent. But I think he needs the right approach in that, you know, in his role and to, and to kind of feel secure in his job. I mean that would help too. Moving around to third, second all that, you know, the Angels have I think screwed up a lot of players by like moving, by changing the roles for their own kind of desperate needs. I look at a guy like Chase Silseth maybe being one of those top examples of that. Just like back and forth to the rotations of the bullpen. It's just, it's then you know, you just, you don't feel comfortable, you don't know what you're doing. And I think that's. That's kind of been hard on, on you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to put an emotion or feeling towards Silseth, but I think like that's when I, my perception of it is that so you know, that's, that's kind of been. I think one of the issues that this team has had. They, they, they operate for their own needs in any given moment as opposed to I think really developing players, players and putting them in positions where they're confident, they feel good and they're in a position to succeed long term.
- [110:12]
A
And one more 20, 25 rookie I wanted to ask you about is Bryce Taydocio, who had sort of a Denzel Clark esque small sample season. He didn't hit, but he fielded spectacularly. Statcast had him plus nine runs in about 400 innings in center, which is all the more interesting because Trout is now playing center, at least nominally. So do you see his role as being sort of like Mike Trout's legs, like defensive substitute late in games? As long as Trout is healthy, can he hit enough to make that profile work as something more than a fourth outfielder?
- [110:46]
B
What I think about Bryce Teodosio is he would be such an elite addition to a really good team. Like if he was on the Dodgers or like the Yankees or the Mets or like you know, some team that Blue Jays like, that's what really good teams need. A player like that who could come in and be great defensive replacements, you know, could be the number you can stick in the number line hole, you know, for a certain number of games and it doesn't really hurt your team. I just don't think the Angels kind of have a good enough roster around them to afford someone who just doesn't really have a profile as an offensive player. I mean, you know, Bryce Theodosio has been an elite 80 grade kind of defensive center fielder for his whole minor league career, but he has never really, I don't think cracked like their top 30 prospects or anything like that. And it's been because of his offense for the most part. I mean he's got the speed, he's got obviously an ability to, to field probably better than almost anyone in baseball. But what does, what value does that bring? Yeah, I mean, I think you're probably right. I mean that's easy as a fourth outfielder. Maybe someone that can spell Trout, maybe someone that can step into a, you know, start a few games here and there. I just don't, I don't look at their lineup and say yeah, like if you put Teodosio in it it makes it better because, or it's going to be sustainably good because there's just not enough other offense around them. And kind of similar to other players he's to trying struck out a lot so maybe there's an improvement to be made. But he's had, you know, good minor league numbers at times in AAA as an offensive player. But I think he's someone that would be really, really good on a team that kind of needs a role player like that as opposed to Someone that's like a starting outfielder or like the number four option on a team that's kind of struggling.
- [112:15]
C
We'll get to some of the names at the top of the rotation that are going to be more familiar to Angels fans, but I want to start with the two guys they brought in this offseason. Grayson Rodriguez, who you mentioned, and Alec Manoa. I'm curious, sort of what are they seeing as the. Maybe the ceiling for each of those guys? Because Manoa, I think, at this point in his career is probably a reclamation project. And Grayson has shown a lot of promise, but also dealt with injury in a way that has kept him from really realizing it. So talk to us about those two guys and kind of what they were expecting or hoping for from each of them.
- [112:48]
B
It's a good question. I mean, I think with Grayson, Ron Rodriguez, it's like they, you know, at least I think from both, honestly, like, their, their idea was these are going to be guys that come in and throw 180 innings. I mean, just be the guy, you know, which is almost a little insane when you think about neither of them pitching like last year. But, you know, that's, that's the way Perry thinks. I mean, you know, I, I, it's not. They don't really do innings limits. I mean, that's just, you know, I think they've been careful. They've been a little. I mean, I don't know. They've said they've been more careful with some of their younger players and shutting them down, but I'm not sure if that's been because of injury or not. You know, I kind of specifically think about Ryan Johnson and a couple other guys like Kaden Dana, who just kind of like, stopped pitching at some certain points last year in the minor leagues. But the Angels are notoriously not transparent with anything. So it could have been injury, but it was kind of being sold as just a shutdown to keep them fresh. I just. I don't know. So, yeah, they, they, they tend to just like, say, okay, here's the ball. Go throw it and see what happens. I mean, Manoa's has been not good, right? Neither of these guys have been good in spring, but Noah in particular, I think his velocity is still pretty low. He's walking guys. He's kind of looking at maybe all the same issues that have made him not a very good pitcher since 2022. So he's got options remaining. Both these guys have options remaining. I would guess that Rodriguez is probably in the big leagues and, you know, If Manoa is in the big leagues, then you probably are feeling not great about the rest of your options at this point because Mano was just not proven he should be a starter in the major leagues right now. I mean, that's, that's just the reality of the situation. But, you know, I don't know how the Angels look at it necessarily, and they might see it differently. And he's also got a few more minorly few more spring training starts made, so we'll see if he can turn it around. But I think that the hope is that they were going to be the, you know, two guys, two stalwarts in the rotation. But the Angels rotation is really like a. A giant question mark to me. I mean. Oh, it's not even a question mark, right. Like, it's. It's just. It's just not very good as of as it stands. I mean, you have guys like you say Kikuchi and Jose Soriano I think are the two most proven strongest options and you know, hopefully they have good years. And Reed Detmers coming back into the to the rotation was fairly good out of the bullpen last year. And it's kind of hard. We don't know how that will translate because it's never been really all that positive for him as a starting pitcher. But he's earned, I guess, the right to try it again. And there's just a lot in that rotation that makes you wonder where this is headed. And I don't know if Manoa is not able to answer the bell, like, where do you go from there? Is it a Jack Ohanowicz? Is it a Sam Aldigh? Is it a Cade? And Dana who's been out early on this spring with Mano. So I don't know, but I don't think the options are fantastic. And I don't think that Mano has really proven he should earn the job right now. I'm to going guessing that Rodriguez is. Is going to be that guy kind of regardless of maybe how he pitches this spring. But, you know, we'll see.
- [115:41]
A
If you need any help restoring your sleep cycle after coming back from Japan, I bet you say Kikuchi could give you some, some tips on that subject. He's probably an expert.
- [115:49]
B
I know I'm like, I'm like watching them all the. The whole Japanese team, like out practicing. I'm like, how are you? I'm like, I can barely walk. Like, how do you guys all do it, like when playing basically baseball, like right after landing, after flying across the
- [116:02]
A
world The Angels have had this pattern seemingly of just bringing in guys who were good several years ago and hoping for the best. And we talked a lot about that. I guess it was last year. It was just like all of their off season moves were like, wow, if, if it were still 2019 or something, this would be a fantastic team, you know, and I guess you could kind of lump Manoa into that category story. Is this because they believe, perhaps irrationally, that those guys can be as good as they once were? Or is it just like bargain bin shopping? Like, this is the best we can get and hopefully it's still in there? Or like, do they believe it or is this just kind of the best they can do?
- [116:46]
B
I think that the Angels are just not spending any money at this point. I mean, they are operating like. This is what I don't get about them, right? Like, they refuse to operate like a big market team. They are, right? They're in LA supposedly, and they have one of the biggest fan bases and biggest markets and they should be a big market team. So. But then they don't, they don't spend at all. They're basically like, you know, they spend at the, at the capability of like, you know, the Rays of the Royals or whoever. I mean, the Royals are spending more than them. So I mean, you know, this is just the way it is, this, this point with them. And so if you're not going to do that, then why are you not trading players at the deadline? Why are you, you not developing better? There's just, it makes no sense to me. So, yeah, I mean, I don't even remember what the question was at this point, but just going on my tangents, you know, what were they, what are they doing in this off season? I, I really, I, I have no idea like this. They, they're left to bargain bin shop, essentially. That's what they have to do. If you're not going to develop players, if you're not going to trade for young players, if you're not going to operate like a small market team or a big market team, like, then you're kind of left in the middle. And I say, like, that's where this is headed. That's why I say this is going in the direction of the White Sox or the, you know, the Rockies, because it's just no strategy. It's just completely, you know, behind the eight ball for every other big league club. And if you, if you refuse to do anything that like these other, that successful teams do, then eventually it gets so bad that you're like you wake up one day and you're. And you're that bad. And that's what I think has happened to those two clubs. And it looks like that's what's happening with. Now, I know that you kind of mentioned at the top mag about like their, their bullpen being reshaped and I think if there's any hope to avoid a really bad season like that, it is because their bullpen is slightly better than maybe some of those other teams that I referenced before. Like that. That's what I think separates them between like the very, very worst. I mean, you know, I mean, and they have other big league players that are good. I mean, it's. Again, it kind of comes down to how productive they'll be and can their rotation. I mean there's. There, there is a wide range, I think, for how the Angels will be this year. I don't know what the, what, what the. The top of that is, but the bottom sure scares me. And so we'll see. I mean, I think they could be better than I expect, but I, I also think they could be worse.
- [118:52]
A
Yeah, it's a lot of reclamation projects and yet they don't seem to have much of a track record of actually reclaiming them, which is the problem. In their defense, they do still have a higher player payroll than the Royals, so there's that. But the Royals have a much better team and also the Royals have more money committed to the 2027 team than the Angels do.
- [119:11]
B
So yeah, where they're, where they're going to go after this year. I mean, I wonder if now that they kind of have the TV situation kind of a little bit more settled, if there's, there's. That really was the reason why they didn't spend anything this offseason. Maybe there's more to. Maybe there's hope for the future, but I will wait on that with bated breath.
- [119:29]
A
What would you say the returns have been of the prospect promotion strategy that they have that seems to mark them as an outlier? I know that prospects are on the whole getting called up more quickly and advancing more quickly across the league. There are just fewer minor league levels and there are more incentives to put guys on the opening gate roster, etc. But I mean, I'd ask like, who are the next Angels prospects who were recently drafted to come up, but they may not have even drafted some of them yet who might be up later this year. So is this working? Like, have they identified. Yeah. Other teams are taking too long or is this actually Kind of counterproductive or what?
- [120:05]
B
No, I think like people don't. If you're like, you have to like really pay attention and realize like they're doing this out of desperation. I mean like Sam altogether is one of their prospects and they called him up last year to like basically just be a like back end long man for, to fill a hole for a day essentially. They made, they, he threw 41 pitches in an inning and then they came back out the next inning. And the same thing happened with Kate and Dana through 43 pitches in an inning that came back up because they needed the length of like that, that is how they're using their starting pitching prospects in like these terrible roles that I think are like actively maybe hurting them. And I know that people like all throughout the organization are like, like so angry about that. And so it's, it's. They're not identifying a, you know, hole in strategy across baseball. They're just like, we need players and like I need, and like if you're the front office, like I need to sell myself and you know, as someone that is developing a young core here to, to ownership, like how am I going to do that? You know, so that's, that is why this is happening. It's not because they've got like all these great young players who they've or found a, you know, a hole in the system. I just don't, I just don't think it's that, that deep. I think it's like, okay, like we, we just like need players to fill roles for our major league team. You know, I think they've also got themselves in a tough spot because like one of the reasons that they have to use those starting pitching prospects in big league league games is because that is who's on their 40 man roster. You know, you, if you call up Kate And Dana like 19 years old or 20 years old, whatever it was in 2020, I think it was 20 end of 2024 season, like you know that now he's on your 40 man roster. So you kind of can't really change that. You know, Victor Madero, same thing. I mean that's what is, that is what this team is, is full of guys and they're on the 40 man that are like prospects that they kind of have to use. Otherwise, you know, you got to dfa somebody else or you know, you got to, you know, make tough choices that you shouldn't have to otherwise make. So I think that's part of the problem too. And in terms of who the Next guys are. I mean it would have shocked me if you see like a George Claassen. I mean he's, he looks like a big league pitcher up there. Like I would not shock me whatsoever if he's kind of the next next name. Maybe they've already used Ryan Johnson again, another guy in the 40 man roster. So he would be easy for them to use again if they feel like he's closer to ready. Tyler Bremner wouldn't be completely shocked if he's in the big leagues at some point, you know, this year just because of everybody being on a one year contract in that front office. So we'll see. You know, I don't know but none of the, none of those things would surprise me too much.
- [122:32]
C
Guess we should make mention of the fact that the guy deciding who comes in when is going to be different this year. What led them to hiring Kurt Suzuki and what are your expectations if him as a big league manager? Because boy, do we not know what to make of it.
- [122:46]
B
I think this is a Perry, you get your last kind of go, right? This is your guy. Go for it. Like you guys are gonna, this is either gonna work or it's not gonna work. And we've given you none of the tools to make it work. But hopefully for your sake it does. I think that's, you know, I think they're kind of tied at the hip and if, if there's a change after this year, it'll be both of them. That is my sense. So, you know, they're, they're get, they're, they're giving, they're getting their shot. I think Kurt Suzuki, I'll be curious to see. I mean he's, I think there's a lot of positive traits to him. He's, he's, you know, he's. The career he had, you cannot sneeze at that. I mean that guy, yeah, was a really, really productive major league catcher for like 15, 16 years. And that is not a, that is not easy to do. And he did it with a lot of teams and he won a World Series and he was a team leader and he was super popular. And like there's a lot to like about that. I think, I think he's really laid back. I think he's got the respect, respect of you know, players in the clubhouse. I don't think he's, he's a totally different personality than what we saw with Wash. So it's, it's a, it's interesting. The thing I'll be curious about is like There have been some things that, like Curtis said, I mean, can he criticize players, right? Can he, can he come out when things are bad and acknowledge that they're bad? Because what I worry about with him is, you know, this is. There will be struggles with this team that is, I think, inevitable. And you know, he's. Can he come out and be like, yeah, like we're not doing a good enough job? Like, can he say what the fan base needs to hear before it gets ugly? And that's, I think, going to be a struggle. Maybe just from what I've heard from him so far. You know, I mean, I remember I asked him the first day at camp, I mean, how would you define success with this team and how much are wins and losses a part of that? And I really didn't like his answer. I mean, he kind of made a comment about how wins and losses are out of their control. And I'm like, if wins and losses are out of your control, then what are we all doing here? You know, the whole point is that you've got to do everything you can to put that within your control. And I think at some point that's just not an. I mean, the Angels have been losing for like 11 years. I've been to the playoffs since 2014. At some point that is just not a good enough answer, you know, for a fan base that just deserves better. That's the one area where I'm like, I really wonder how it'll look with him and can he come out and be like, yeah, this guy's not doing a good enough job. We got to make a change, you know, does he feel empowered to say that stuff? I mean, the Angels have put him in a really tough spot. Being on a one year deal and being someone that's like basically been teammates with numerous guys in that clubhouse already. So, you know, you just don't really have that cachet and they're not being given the opportunity to have it. And it's a, it's a tough way to start your managerial career. And so if he's had success, has success, it's going to be kind of overcoming a lot of those odds, in my opinion.
- [125:14]
A
Yeah, the choice of Suzuki and the contract term, definitely eyebrow raising. Although with Craig Stammon getting the gig in San Diego and then Tony Vitello in San Francisco, I don't know if it was even the most surprising managerial in California this past off season.
- [125:29]
B
I love the Hotel One. I'll be fascinated to see how that plays out.
- [125:32]
A
Yeah, yeah. Well, I Guess we'll close with the same question that you posed to Suzuki and we'll see if you have a different answer than he did. What would constitute a successful season for the Angels in 2026? And based on the tenor of this conversation, I don't know that you see success as a very likely outcome. But. But what would success be in Angels adjusted terms?
- [125:55]
B
I would say that anything better than their 72 and 90 record from last year would be a successful season just because. And it's not because they will have improved necessarily. It will just be because it didn't bottom out the way that I expected to. And, and they would probably mean that some of their younger players that they kind of are counting on had good years. And, you know, maybe, maybe there's a Runway if that happens, for you to kind of go into next offseason with hopefully some money to spend. Hopefully, you know, and again, we're talking about an off season that who knows what comes after it, right? Like, the whole world might change in terms of the CBA and everything. So that's, I think, probably playing into maybe some of the offseason strategy this year. But, you know, for me, I think a successful season is any sort of improvement. But if I had to predict what I think will happen, it will be a decline from last year, I would probably put him at, you know, the Angels never lost 100 games, but I think if I had to predict a record, I might go 58, 59, something like that wins. I don't know.
- [126:55]
A
It's.
- [126:55]
B
I know that's lowly. I know that's sad. I'm sure that if they end up doing much better than that, somebody will find this clip and tell me how dumb I am. But, you know, I don't think they've earned the benefit of the doubt. And if you look at, even last season, they used the same starting five pitchers for the first, like 90 games. They were healthy. I mean, they won. They were. They had a winning record of one run games. They won a lot of close games late, you know, so you have a modicum of luck that still got you to 72 and 90. I don't think the Angels have any depth. That's always been a problem. And I think now you're. You're at the mercy of not being injured and just hoping that players exceed their expectations. And so I'm just going to. I'm going to assume that that won't happen. And under that assumption, I'd probably go with 58 and 104 and something 104 or something like that.
- [127:38]
A
Yeah, well, after that take on the team, I don't know how you'll show your face in the clubhouse again. I guess you won't actually have to. Well, you'll probably, you'll be in the clubhouse sometimes.
- [127:47]
B
I don't think the players would have any out, any problem. That's the thing is, I mean, I got, you know, I, I get the sense that players might be a little bit frustrated off kind of where everything's at with this club. So they understand that. I mean, they understand that they're not being put in position to succeed. And I think there are a lot of players who are good big league players in that clubhouse that maybe just aren't there yet or shouldn't be there yet or aren't getting the coaching or whatever it is, but it's just like it's, it's not clicking and the culture's not there. And so yeah, it's no disrespect to any player in that clubhouse when I say that I don't think there'll be winners. I just, I think that is a reflection of the organization and mistakes that they've made to put this team in the position that it's in.
- [128:22]
A
Well, with that, I guess your, your time as an Angels reporter is officially complete and you, you did great work on the beat, so I will miss you there and I am looking forward to everything else that you'll be able to cover. Your broader coverage of the league is always interesting too. So glad you get to branch out a bit and hope that others still on the beat will continue to hold the team to account. And you'll always have Anthony Rendone telling you he doesn't speak English. So great memories.
- [128:54]
B
Yes, I appreciate you saying that and thank you for having me on. And I was happy to come on in whatever context. And apologies to Lance Brzowski who does great work, who. I just, I brain fart on that one. So thank you.
- [129:08]
A
All right, a few follow ups for you. I keep getting notifications from well meaning folks pointing me to alleged instances of quote unquote strategy being deployed in the WBC that is mid plate appearance pitching changes with a tactical goal. Something I've written and talked plenty about before. If there are actual instances of teams pulling a pitcher mid plate appearance to derive some advantage in the rest of that plate appearance, please do let me know. But I think most, if not all of the mid plate appearance pitching changes in the WBC have come about as a result of restrictions on pitcher usage. There are pitch limits which are somewhat negotiable. You're allowed to finish a plate appearance, but there are also some mandatory rest requirements if you go above a certain pitch count. For example, James Paxton, I believe in both of his outings thus far has been removed after 49 pitches because if you go to 50 it triggers a four day rest. And so by pulling him after 49 pitches in his most recent outing, he could remain eligible to pitch against the US on Friday. So I think that's what's going on here, but if I'm missing something, please let me know. Also, we got a lot of suggestions for what we could call a hit or a homer that ends the game thanks to the mercy rule we were talking about. Whether this qualifies as a walk off? Should it be a stomp off? Is it just a mercy rule inducing home run? So some suggestions Justin in Wisconsin says, I'd like to submit Waltz off for consideration as a term of art for the mercy roll inducing walkoff scoring scenario. I think it is properly anchored to the original term walk off and it also brings to mind a lovely image of players jauntily dancing off the field after winning a game so convincingly. Lee says even though the technical definition involves the word mercy, I frequently heard the term run rule from my nephew and his college ball teammates. Alliteration is nice, but to me it also communicates what caused the game to end. And the mercy rule is also a run rule, I'd say so try Soto Run ruled the Netherlands on for size. Yeah, run ruled works Merced a run rule homer maybe? Jeremy says, I think I've emailed with questions or ideas only once or twice. I would usually start to write an email and then immediately get bored by my ideas. That detail is only mentioned to speak to how strongly I feel about the term for a mercy rule walk off. For me, the obvious answer is technical walk off. I realized I was borrowing from boxing, where if you get knocked down X number of times, even if you can get back up, it's a technical knockout. I kind of like that. Inspired by the TKO the two the technical walkoff, Craig says my proposal for a mercy rule invoking hit is walkover has a nice echo of walk off makes clear the game was over and yes, the winner walked all over the other team, but it's less aggressive than stomp in line with the mercy of it all. Patreon supporter Daniel notes that the mercy of rule inducing would lend itself to the acronym mri, so maybe that's another reason to avoid it. Raymond suggested merciful home run. Casey said run away rather than a walk off. Thomas suggested coup de grace, which literally means mercy blow. Lots of good ideas and some straggler. Who you got suggestions? Sam suggests Royce Lewis or Chase Dilater. Dilater feels like the Royce Lewis of Cleveland. Massive prospect upside, but their injuries almost carry their profiles more than their actual turn tools. And Brett says Gunner Henderson versus Bobby Witt junior who you got both on Team USA but both nearly 25 and actually they have almost identical baseball reference wars, which surprised me because Bobby Witt Jr. Has almost 50% more fan graphs war than Gunner does, which was more in line with my expectations. I mentioned that when Spencer Nussbaum used to to refer to thoracic outlet syndrome, it made me think of terms of service wondering. Winder points out it's also often used to refer refer to the original series as in Star Trek the Original series, which as a fellow Trekker 2 definitely another association in my mind. Reminds me actually that I've got to go watch the finale of Starfleet Academy. Also, I saw in Blue Sky a baseball entry of interest to me. This was posted by one felina510 who said new Favorite Sports injury just dropped and highlighted this item among some Padres injury updates. Loriano, as in Ramon Loriano scratched for general soreness parentheses left shoulder from bad sleep with new dog and Felina conducted some additional research and found that Loriano evidently got a new dog last fall and it's a dachshund. And I know a thing or two about sharing a bed with a dachshund because I have done so for most of the nights in my life and my bed would feel empty without one. But they do really like to get up close and personal. There are many configurations in which one can sleep with a dachshund. They got to get under the covers on top of the covers. Just will not do because of their burrowing instinct. I don't think I've suffered any injuries as a result of that. And even though they are teeny tiny, albeit disproportionately long, they will try to take up more space in the bed than they are reasonably entitled to. It's best to have them sleep on you or tucked in next to you, either alongside your flank or if you're on your side behind your knee in what my wife calls the crook. Hey, there's the dachshund barking now. But I imagine what might have happened happened here. Sometimes Gremkin will curl up into a ball. I call it her Samus Morph ball mode and go under my arm and then I have to scooch up in the bed lest my shoulder be at an awkward angle too splayed out. So maybe that's what happened here with Ramone. You've got to either move up relative to the dog or move the dog down relative to you, or encourage some other alignment. I'm sure they'll work it out, but once you have had essentially a canine hot water bottle in your bed for years on end, you won't want to go back. Lauriano and his new canine companion will just have to work on their mechanics. Only two more preview pods and four teams to go. Braves and White Socks will be next. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com effectivelywild and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks, as have the following five listeners Laura Woodland, D.F. tuttle, George, Chris McDonald, and Cali Moogle. Thanks to all of you, Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord Group, monthly bonus episodes, playoff live streams, prioritized email answers, shout outs at the end of episodes, potential podcast appearances, discounts on merch and ad, free Fangrass memberships, and so much more. Check out all the offerings@patreon.com effectively wild if you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcast podcastangraphs.com you can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Music and other podcast platforms. You can join our facebook group@facebook.com group effectively wild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at R Effectively Wild and you can check the show notes in the podcast post, fan graphs, or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We'll be back with one more episode before the end of the week, which means we will talk to you soon.
- [135:55]
D
It's the zombie runner bobby shams bobby shames bobby shams effectively wild.