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Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Effectively Wild Episode 2454: Be All You Can WBC
01:27:57
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- [00:02]
A
It's effectively wild. It's effectively wild. Wetland bike R.
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B
Hello, and welcome to episode 2454 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraph Spaceball podcast, brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Riley of fangraphts, and I am joined by Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer. Hello, Ben.
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A
Hello. I guess I could have said hello without you saying hello to me, that is, you know, typically expected that I would say something at that point, but hi, I'm here. Hello. And I'm. I'm doing dandy.
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B
Great. I'm so glad to hear that. And we are not alone. We are also joined by fangraph's writer, Kiri Aller. Hello.
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C
Hello. I'm all.
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B
I'm all discombobulated. Okay. I'm sorry. I don't know what happened.
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A
Natural tee ups. This is just. This is how conversations sound. I just. We have spoken before.
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C
Look, man, we know how words work.
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B
We're in the middle of PPRs. I'm white knuckling it over here. Okay, yeah. But I'm so glad to take a break from that exercise. And I'm editing the center field blurbs as we speak.
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A
So literally, as we speak mid podcast.
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B
No, not as. No, not as we speak. They deserve care and attention that Kiri put into writing them. So I will pause and take a lovely break with both of you and please, someone else talk now.
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C
Okay, great. Mike's gonna be real sick of my words by the end of the day. No,
- [01:40]
A
Yeah, a few hundred or thousand more episodes will be naturals at this. But yeah, we wanted to talk to you, Kiri, because you previewed the WBC for fangraphs in several pieces. And wbc, it's over. It reached an emotional, exciting, scintillating climax on Tuesday, and we held off on bantering about it last time so that we could just do a WBC rap today. We can rap at each other about it. We can wrap up the whole event. We can talk about the highs, we can talk about the lows. We can talk about Mark DeRosa even more than we already have. But I guess we should maybe start with the finale, and then we could work backwards, which seems backward, but also is probably appropriate because how could we not begin with Team Venezuela taking the title and just joyously celebrating? And it meant so much to them. Extremely clear how much it meant to them. And regardless of what your rooting interest was in the tournament, I think even if you were rooting for Team usa, you had to be happy for the Venezuelan players who just showed A lot of heart and obviously this was quite cathartic for them. And a great pitching performance from Eduardo Rodriguez and various relievers. And then overcoming the late inning, Bryce Harper heroics and the big blast to then strike right back and score that winning run with Aenio Suarez clearly pretty pumped about driving that run in. So exciting stuff. A Kiri.
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C
Yeah, I'm not sure Aurora has ever not been pumped in his life, but he definitely reached a new peak, I think in, in that moment.
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A
Yeah. So you previewed the various pools and teams. Obviously Team Venezuela was going to be good. They were a contender. It's one of the strongest, most prolific producers of baseball talent and one of the richest baseball histories. But obviously an underdog compared to the three Titans who had divvied up the previous WBCs. And they were not the strongest team. They were not on paper at least favored. So did they surprise you? Did you chalk this up to small sample and this is after all playoff baseball of a sort, or did we all underrate how good this roster was?
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C
I think I definitely had them in like the top four relative to the field. I did not pick them to win. I think I was favoring the doctor in that regard. I think the weakness of their roster was definitely the starting pitching, but that is with the. The sort of caveat there is that their, their bullpen was very strong and I think that's what really kind of paid off for them going through this. So I think one of the takeaways for me from the tournament as a whole is yes, like the pitching's always going to be weaker relative to the lineups, but if you have either strong starting pitching or a strong bullpen, you can kind of piece your way through this. And I do wonder if maybe we'll see some more strategic pitching decisions with the roster construction where maybe teams do just lean a little bit more heavily on having a lot of really good relievers or. And maybe a few guys who can go two or three innings given the pitch count limitations that are in the rules for the wbc. And maybe they just go for a bunch of relievers who can throw gas for an inning at a time and, and sort of bullpen their way to a title.
- [05:21]
A
Yeah, and maybe we'll even see some sort of clarification about whether a pitcher who has received approval to pitch in a save situation could pitch in a tie game as the visiting team situation instead for an extremely high leverage inning that seems quite equivalent to the situation that he was approved to pitch in. But we'll get to Mason Miller and Mark DeRosa in just a second. But yeah, it was just the joy. And that's really. Maybe it's obvious, maybe it's kind of cliched, but look, there was clearly a contrast. I think maybe we could make too much of the joylessness of Team usa, but there was a clear contrast there. And this obviously meant a ton to the players. And there is the geopolitical aspect to all of this that I think probably played a part in the release there. But it wasn't just that. It was just. It's an incredible accomplishment. It means a ton to just about everyone participating in this tournament. And that's what makes it special for us watching at home. Aside from the fact that you're getting to see many of the very best baseball players in the world play with each other and play head to head, I think it's just the evident delight that these guys take from this and the stakes that they imbue it with. Because obviously the format does a lot of the work. Like every game matters. There are only so many. It's pretty compressed. And so you have built in stakes. And I do see some people saying, how do we carry this over into the regular season? How do we make the regular season more like the wbc? And I don't think you really can exactly. I mean, yes, you can have fun and you can bat flip and you can kiss on the cheek and you can have your Nespresso shots or whatever, by all means do that. And more teams and players are doing that. But part of it is just inherent to this tournament and it doesn't really map onto 162 game six month season where each individual game just doesn't mean as much. That's what makes the WBC so special. So I think we have to savor it while we're watching it. And while it would be nice if baseball could always be this cool and super exciting, I think baseball has a built in boringness that we also cherish.
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B
I also wonder, you know, it's funny to think about the like ideal balance perhaps of pitching to hitting because I. Not that the, the pitching we saw in this tournament was bad. I mean some of it was quite poor, but it was like expected to be bad. But some of, some of these guys turned in great performances. But I, I wonder if part of the enjoyment is that there is a little bit of a deficit between the sort of baseline quality of the hitters that come in and the, the pitchers that come in, or at least the pitchers that are likely to be in at any given moment, given some of the limitations on pitch count and innings and what have you. And so I wonder if we want to keep. We want to, we don't want to optimize it too much for quality because I think that having the chance to have those big explosive offensive moments is, you know, it's facilitated by the quality of the guys and, and the fact that it's March and also the fact that like sometimes you, you have a, like a plumber up there that helps
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A
an electrician just dominating Samurai Japan. But yeah, I, I think that too. Although it's not as if we saw many offensive outbursts from Team usa.
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B
So what do we make of that?
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A
Yeah, I don't know because so much was made about the fact that they finally have this championship caliber pitching and obviously it was hugely improve. They had one single solitary Tarik Skubal start and then they had Skenes and they had Webb and then they end up starting Nolan McLean in the championship game. And Noel McLean was not the problem. He was perfectly fine. He kept them in the game. He's something like the 74th best starting pitcher projection according to the Fangraph step charts. And maybe you think he's better than that based on the prospect pedigree and how good he was down the stretch late last season. But they're obviously better pitchers. Skubal was not pitching anymore in the tournament and Garrett Crochet and various other guys were approached and Brian Wu and you know, lots of guys were asked to and either declined or their teams kind of declined for them. So you still end up in a situation where you're not handing the ball to the very best guy. But you would certainly take that number of runs allowed and that pitching performance from McLean and the relievers who followed them. Cause you figure, look at this lineup, look at these bats, surely they can score more than two runs. But no, not reliably.
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B
Some of this is just going to always be the vagaries of a very small sample. And the fact that it is March and these guys aren't fully tuned up, but like, some of it is just that they did run into some really good pitching here. I think one of my favorite things about this tournament specific to Venezuela wasn't just the fact that their bullpen was good overall, but like, I think that if Andres Machado wants a big league job, he can get one, you know, and you have these guys who you might have familiari with from a prospect context years ago who have been pitching overseas and you're like, well, I don't know if you can pump 98 like that. You know, when you're ready to come over from Asia next year, I think you're going to have a big league job if you want it going back
- [10:46]
C
to the unevenness of the pitching a little bit. That is definitely part of what made team Italy's game so exciting because they would get out to these big leads. But then, you know, as soon as like Aaron Nola had to come out of the game, suddenly they were kind of white knuckling it the rest of the way and just like desperately trying to hold on to a lead. And so there is a little bit of a feature built in there that some might view as a bug, but it, it sure led to some exciting finishes.
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A
Yes, your Italians, ultimately they, they had to go down so that Venezuela could rise, but they were one of the indelible teams of this tournament and left us with many of the bits and many of the memes and many of the memorable on field moments as well. So they were just a delight, perhaps particularly for you, Meg, but I think for everyone who was watching, I think for everyone.
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B
And I, I do have to say, you know, so like I'm a Western United States Italian, so we do things a little differently than, than New Jersey Italians. Like this is less or less of a, a GTL lifestyle. If, if anyone remembers Jersey Shore. I did. I liked that they were just happy to lean into their understanding of their heritage, however much it might diverge from what that actual Italians, like Italians in Italy might understand to be Italian ness. And that my understanding is that the, the folks over in Italy were like, this is good enough. You know, this is close enough to what we, you might call it gravy and not sauce. But we're, we're good to go. And I, I do think that's part of the power of the tournament. We saw this with Great Britain the last time around where it's like, I don't know, there are a bunch of school kids in the UK who are like super amped on Harry Ford now. And that's kind of funny, but it does have sort of a, a draw which I, I want to put a question to the two of you. How do we fix Team USA's vibes the next time around? We have to talk about the vibes because they were not to overreact rancid this time around. And it was weird because I don't. And maybe I'm misremembering sort of the posture of the team in 2023 and obviously some of the guys are different now than, than, than then. But I don't remember this being quite the, the, the vibe the last time we saw them play in WBC action. And obviously some of the geopolitical stuff that you're talking about, Ben, is sitting in the backdrop for them too. And given the, you know, the political composition of baseball players generally, we might have some guesses about how they are oriented and obviously they took away some of that mystery this time around. But like how do we, how do we fix this? Because I didn't enjoy it and it bummed me out because these are good, these are good baseball players and I enjoy many of them individually, but they were just so tight and not that they were completely joyless. I think you're right, Ben, that there were moments where they were excited and some of this was the game state where they weren't scoring. They were playing all these tight contests.
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A
Yeah, you're going to look down when you're just slumping and not scoring.
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B
But, but can they fake it or something? It's like this sucked.
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A
Yeah. I don't question their commitment. If anything, they took it too seriously perhaps, but I know they, they wanted it and it clearly meant a lot to them too. I don't know if it meant as much, but yes, the way that that manifested, I mean we talked about it a little bit earlier in the tournament with Cal and the declined handshakes and the claymore mine T shirt and the outfield salutes and the ex Navy SEAL speaker. And when Mark DeRosa was asked about his decision to bring in that speaker, he just made it very explicit that this team was playing for the troops. Just like this was why they were playing. You know, he's basically like, you never want to forget why you're doing this or you don't want it to get lost why you're doing this. And he said, a lot of people like Paul Skeen said to me when he signed up for this, I want to do this for every serviceman and woman who protects our freedom. And that's why we wear USA across our chest. And, and that's just a choice that seemingly they all made. I don't know if it was to a man, but at least whenever they were speaking about it and you know, they were asked, there was a video going around and they were asked about the unofficial anthem of the US and almost all of them seemingly said Toby Keith and his post 9 11, you know, the American way is we stick a boot in your ass song. And, and it was just so Strange. In contrast to all the other teams that were celebrating some aspect of their culture or just celebrating playing baseball because that's what they were doing here. You know, like, there are other aspects of the USA to represent when you're playing for Team usa. First of all, it doesn't necessarily have to represent anything larger. It can just represent that people enjoy baseball and we want to be distracted on our slog to rigor mortis. And it's hard to be distracted when you're constantly reminded us of war and death. And. And maybe it is because there's a war on and maybe multiple. It's hard to even count or keep track or define them these days. But I just don't know why it had to be expressed this way, because it kind of left you with the impression that what the US is or what American culture is is just war in the military. And I'd like to think that there's a little bit more than that. I saw various conversations, people saying, well, what should they have done? Like, what would have been the equivalent to the coffee and the kisses or the Japanese players miming whisking matcha or, you know, whatever. Like, are they just pretending to barbecue? Are they grilling up some hot dogs? Like, whatever. Just kind of quintessential American thing. It could have been. I just wish it had been that because it just leaves you with this impression that all we are is just martial and militaristic and jingoistic. And that was not the way that I wanted to experience the wbc. I wonder if part of this, I mean, I don't know when I think of the things that you could celebrate in a baseball context. I guess a lot of American culture is black American culture, African American culture, and that's less represented in MLB these days and on this team specifically. So maybe that absence was felt. But even so, I just don't, I don't. I assume it's. It's Derosa and maybe it's, you know, obviously like this matters to Skeens and he has a family connection and the Cadet and Griffin Jacks in the Air Force Reserve and all of that. Like, I don't want to discount their own personal sentiments about this, but for the entire team to be a monument to that was just off putting. And I, I think I would. Even if I had different political leanings, I'd like to think that I would still find it somewhat discordant.
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C
Yeah, we reached this strange point in American culture where seemingly the only way to properly express patriotism is by celebrating the troops and by glamorizing war and all of that. And not only if you try to express it in some other way, not only are you wrong, but actually you hate the troops and you are being super disrespectful. So you don't even really get a choice in the matter at this point. And you know, I was thinking too about like, what the US's version of, you know, better vibes and celebrating culture should be. And you know, it occurred to me that what we were seeing from the other teams is a real, like, celebration of community. You know, that's what came through in Gino's post game comments last night. And that, that struck a chord with me because if, if there isn't anything else in the US to celebrate other than the troops, then what exactly are the troops fighting for?
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A
Yes, what are the troops protecting? Just themselves. Like, why are they out there protecting the country? What about the things that are special about the us, Such as, for instance, being the birthplace of baseball? I don't know, just maybe in this context you could play that up in some way. But yeah, it's also strange to me because it becomes this almost pissing contest or purity test or something about whether you support the troops enough. And look, it's pretty uncontroversial to support the troops. I don't really know anyone who doesn't support the troops. Like, everyone wants the troops to be safe. You know, like people differ on, on how the troops should be deployed. I would argue perhaps that the best way to support the troops is to not place them in harm's way somewhat unnecessarily. That's one way you could show your support for the troops that maybe even some of the troops might appreciate. But the point is, like, show better
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C
support for veterans after they get done fighting.
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A
Yeah, but, but basically we're all on board. Yes, the troops, we do appreciate their service and their sacrifice and all the rest of it. And there are many ways in which we do that, and there are probably ways we should do that that we don't do that. But it's just so tightly intertwined with sports. And it's not new, obviously. I mean, it's just the constant anthem playing and the saluting and the camouflage uniforms and just all the rest of it. Right. And it kind of goes back to 9, 11, and it just became kind of entrenched. I don't know that that was the origin, but that was certainly a time when you kind of couldn't go back from the demonstrations that everyone sort of was A bit on board with, in the aftermath of that tragedy. So it just, it feels out of step with the spirit of the rest of this tournament. And Bryce Harper, Jeff Passon quoted him and he said, talking about just all the other players celebrating, it's America's pastime. But that's the greatest thing about our game. We can share it with all these different countries as well and bring it all together and be part of this. And it's awesome. It's really awesome. So that's a nice sentiment there with some appreciation of that certainly. But I wish that the US players had exhibited that more themselves.
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C
And speaking of Bryce Harper, why did he look so angry after he hit that home run?
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B
He looked so mad. He looked so mad. And it's funny because he had. Look, we, we like to give Bryce the business when he deserves it, and Bryce has sort of earned it of late. But like, at least his answer to the. What, what's the unofficial anthem was not
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A
America the Beautiful or something, right?
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B
Yeah, it is. Also, it's so wild to me when, you know, I often feel a disconnect between myself and young people. I feel this in baseball because all these dudes are just like, you know, infants compared to the grizzled soon to be 40 year old who runs fan graphs. But it's wild to hear like Gunnar Henderson and Bobby Witt Jr be talking about Toby Keith. And courtesy of the Red, White and Blue.
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A
I looked it up. That song came out two days before Paul Skeens was born.
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B
Right? You were, you don't remember this event, right? Like, and I know that the Holiness never forget, but like you, it's not part of their initial, like, awakening to political consciousness because they were, they were babies when it happened. Right? You know, and some guys was like barely born. Barely born. So that part's always a little jarring to me where I'm like, you weren't, you weren't there for that. Which isn't to say that it isn't shaping, you know, American politics to this day. Like, it's obviously an important aspect of our history, but it is just a little weird because I'm like you. The emotional resonance of this feels like it should be at something of a remove for you because you weren't there when it happened or aware of it when it was happening. So that part's always strange. I think your point is well taken, Ben, that, like, the relative lack of diversity on Team usa, I'm sure has something to do with this personality being able to emerge as the dominant one yeah.
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A
And by the way, a lot of more diverse potential members of Team USA were playing for other WBC squads. So that's. That's part of it too.
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B
And I feel like I can say this as an Italian American, you also took the most emotional whites and you put them all on Team Italy. You know, of course they were doing espresso and kisses, like that's part of it. Not that there aren't jingoistic Italian Americans. To be clear, we have to own that part of it too. But you took all the emotional weights. You took them away. You took them away. But I do think some. A greater diversity on that team might allow for there to be a more balanced and interesting personality and one that isn't quite so monolithic. Which is. Which, you know, isn't to say that any individual person from any individual demographic necessarily thinks one way because they are a part of that demographic. I don't want to overgeneralize in the other direction either. But it, it did feel notable that, you know, such a white team had such a sort of consistent through line to the way that they were positioning themselves. And it's. It felt like Derosa set that tone pretty dominantly from the top too. So.
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A
So, yeah.
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B
Hey. So we didn't arrive at an answer other than for them to all loosen up. Barbecue would be a great celebration. You could flip burgers. You could do like, I think you a spit.
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C
I think we gotta put Pete Crow Armstrong in charge of the vibes because he was the only one that seemed to be having fun. When Harper hit that home run, he, as per usual, was like way too far onto the field and celebrating and almost caught the bat flip. So I think we need more pca, less judge and skeins.
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A
Yeah. And maybe next time around, just different composition of the roster, it could be a different vibe. Who knows? But I would like to see them continue to take it seriously and want to participate, but then also loosen up. And I don't know whether that apparent tight assedness played into their struggles at the plate or whether it was more a product of that. And I'd probably lean toward the latter, but even so, yes. And perhaps there was pressure. Maybe they were feeling some of the pressure because, hey, now we are the super team and people are calling us the dream team and we have Skubal and we have skins and now we're the prohibitive favorites and now we're sort of expected to win. Who knows, maybe that weighed on them in some way or just maybe they had a few rough games along the way offensively, but it was a special ending. Just wanted to read the beginning of a defector piece that Luis Paez Pumar wrote. He said, as I write this on Wednesday morning, it still doesn't feel real that Venezuela, my homeland, won something. We never win a single thing. The last time Venezuela claimed a major international trophy was in 1945. Of course, it was in baseball at the Amateur World Series. The closest we had gotten in my lifetime was probably the one nothing defeat to England in the 2017 U20 World Cup. And he just goes on to talk about the geopolitical situation that we alluded to. But this was just a. A great release and it continues to say, for one of the only times in my life I felt a whole lot of people rooting for Venezuela wholeheartedly, not treating my country as a pariah. For one of the only times in my life, it was Venezuela getting the headlines and the joy and the multilingual. Vamos yells for maybe the only time in my life Venezuela felt like a winner. And it feels fantastic. Venezuela 3. United States too. I'll never forget it. And the atmosphere was obviously amazing in Miami, you know. Yeah, they had the, the home field advantage. I know Neil Payne has done some analysis. It's probably tricky to do given the context, but I think he has found that home field advantage is somewhat inflated in the wbc and that might make sense just given the atmosphere. I guess it would be hard to say exactly who has the home field advantage because the routing interest might differ depending on where you're located. But yeah, not a lot of people in Lone Depot park were rooting for Team USA seemingly. And, and that only added to the experience because that place got loud and it was festive and it's probably quite a come down to most Marlins games, but that is a really natural and perfect setting for WBC games. So I'm glad that fans there get that at least.
- [27:42]
C
Yeah. And another thing I liked about that defector piece was he noted that like Venezuela came close to having some big, big soccer games and in a World cup at one point, but they didn't quite get there. But he said he was actually glad that it was baseball that finally like brought Venezuela glory on an international stage because that is their main sport there. It's a huge part of the culture. And the broadcast mentioned, you know, the tiny town that Ronald Acuna Jr. And and Mikel Garcia are from, that it's only like 3,000 people population, but it's produced like eight big leaguers.
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B
Yeah.
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C
And so I think it was. It had to be so, so, so meaningful to everyone on that team. Everyone watching, whether they were back in Venezuela or in the US or wherever they may be. I just feel like it, it resonated that much more for all of those reasons.
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A
I think it's also good for the tournament that someone else won.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because it was starting to feel like, like, is there just a Big Three? Is this just going to be dominated by Japan and the doctor and the U.S. and then we were talking about, well, is this U.S. team so good? Like, do we not want it to be too good because it'll be unbalanced? And we didn't think it would be, but still, like, you wouldn't even want a Dream Team situation. And really Japan's been the juggernaut in this tournament and a lot of international baseball, and this was the first time Japan got bounced before the semis. So that was an upset and a surprise. And I don't really have a particular rooting interest for against, but I think it's good that some new blood got to celebrate just because, look, there's some participants in the WBC who probably don't have a realistic chance of winning. And even a Cinderella run, it's not going to go that far. But the fact that we had much improved rosters for Italy and Canada and they made it further than they had made it before and, and that Venezuela went all the way, I think that's actually quite good for the perception of the tournament as something that if not anyone can win, a lot of teams could win or at least make a real run at it. And, and that helps. I wouldn't want the titles to be concentrated among only three teams.
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B
Yeah, I think you want it to feel, you want it to strike the balance between not being overly fluky. Cause I, I think that that sort of puts, puts people on their, their back foot and makes them suspicious of it. And you know, when you have called strike threes like the one that ended the game against the Doctor, you already have suspicions swirling. But you do want the, the possibility for upstarts and you want that to create some momentum around those programs and inspire folks who have either direct heritage or, you know, a lineage back to say, well, maybe I want to, you know, I want to put on those colors and, and, and represent. I do want to give one more note of props to Harper, who did look so dour, but seemingly unique among Team usa, like, stuck around to congratulate all the Venezuelan players after the game had concluded in a way that seemed like A nice bit of sportsmanship for a bunch of tight asses. So good job, Bryce.
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A
And people were making much of the storied careers of Harper and Judge and how they, quote, unquote, haven't won anything yet or they haven't won a championship. And sometimes they've come up short, though they've both had huge hits. And Judge had a big game in the semis too. He was kind of doing it all, so I don't want to make too much of that, but it's true that they have often ended up on the other side kind of looking in, sort of sadly or perhaps angrily, and they have had. Had fantastic careers. And so you kind of hope that maybe one of them will break through someday. Though I'm sure most people not, not pulling for the Yankees so that you can win one for Judge. I think probably most people are fine with him losing in the World Series. He wins in other ways often enough. But I do think, okay, so they, they took this super seriously. They had more players participate and want to sign up. We, we, we need a new manager. I mean, I'm sorry, we need a new manager.
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B
My God.
- [31:51]
A
Like, yeah, DeRosa did the opposite of covering himself in glory here. We, we went through the whole misspoke saga and whether he actually knew or not that the game against Team Italy mattered, and even if you think that he did, and I guess I lean towards, he probably realized that they had some stakes in that game. Communication is a big part of the manager's job. And it's also ostensibly what you would want to be getting with a guy whose main gig is being on TV all the time. Right? So even if he did just misspeak in that way, that's not a great reflection because that should sort of be his strength or one of them. And then, yeah, just the, the lack of urgency with which he managed that game against Italy and then in the final, not using Mason Miller there at the end. Now, I know that there are restrictions and it's team imposed and it's team mandated, but I have very little confidence in whether Mark DeRosa actually inquired about whether the Padres would mind them using Mason Miller in that situation. I just, I have some serious doubts about that because on the Venezuela side, there was the same sort of pushback from teams. And Omar Lopez, the manager of the Venezuela squad, there was an AP story about this, that he argued back and he pleaded and he wanted Daniel Palencia to be available for the second straight night and third time in fourth days. And by the way, the US had That advantage in this game, where they had a day off before the final and Venezuela did not, in theory, that should have worked to their advantage. And so Lopez got the same restrictions, and he pleaded his case and seemingly talked some teams into just loosening the leash a little bit. And so he had Palencia there in that same situation. And Mark Derosa. I just. I don't know that he actually really pushed on this because he said honoring the Padres was why honor the troops, honor the Padres, but honoring the Padres wishes, presumably, had we taken the lead, he was coming in, but I wasn't going to bring him into a tie game. I wanted to honor the fact that there was a situation there where if it was tied, we were going to use Whitlock. We had talked to the Red Sox about that, and if we had the lead, we were going to use Mason. I just don't understand the distinction. This seems like a classic Showalter, this Zach Britton. I mean, how long has it been, like, I think teams have adapted by this point, and maybe this is where the lack of managerial experience shows itself, but do you think the Padres actually would have objected if, if they gave the green light to using Miller for an inning in a save situation, would they have drawn the line at bringing him in for an inning in that similarly high leverage situation? I just. I don't see why that would have mattered. So was it literally that derozo was like, when can I use him? And the Padres said, you can use him in a save situation. And then he didn't say, well, what if there's the functional equivalent of a save situation? Because we wouldn't be able to have a safe situation at that point. Can I still bring him in for an inning? Does anyone have confidence that he actually checked on that? I don't particularly, but I just. I don't understand. Like, even if the Padres had said that, Omar Lopez probably would have pushed back and maybe he would have persuaded them or something. So, look, maybe it. It would have worked out the way it worked out anyway, who knows? But that did not sit well. I think if you were rooting for that team and wondering, why isn't Mason Miller pitching well?
- [35:38]
C
And the Padres do wear a lot of camo, so you can see how derosa would have conflated them with the troops and felt the need to honor them above all else. So I can see how he got there. But, yeah, I probably would have just. Just done it even if I hadn't checked with them.
- [35:55]
A
Like, that's.
- [35:56]
C
That's an ask for Forgiveness later situation. It's a, it's a game seven. Just go with it.
- [36:03]
B
He's like, what are you gonna do, fire me? You're probably gonna do that anyway.
- [36:07]
A
Right?
- [36:08]
C
Right.
- [36:08]
A
I know he said he 100% would come back, but I gotta think the interest will not be mutual after this. Like, I know he's MLB's guy and everything, but after this showing. Come on. Done.
- [36:19]
B
If you're him and, and they really were, hey, you can only use him in a save. And you had come out after you throw Mason Miller in there and then you come out after the fact and say, well, it's basically a safe situation. Like, look at the game state. No one's gonna be like that, dummy. He doesn't know ball. They're saying that now, though. And I don't need to disrespect Garrett Whitlock. Like, Garrett Whitlock is a good reliever. He had a great season.
- [36:45]
C
Yeah.
- [36:45]
A
In the tournament.
- [36:46]
B
Yeah. Has pitched well through the spring. But like, you've literally Mason Miller back there and, you know, not that no one ever gets a hit off that guy, but given the, the way that the hitters who are up for Venezuela tend to approach a plate appearance, like, I think you're probably gonna gotten them out with some cheese. We should, we should give some, some love to the. Just the, the patience and, and, and restraint that Luis Arise demonstrated in, in his walk because.
- [37:19]
A
Not his calling card.
- [37:20]
C
But yes, he wanted to swing so bad at that almost to him. Like he had to do that weird like, figure skating jump move to get out of the way because he was leaning forward to swing.
- [37:31]
B
Yes. He was so ready. He was so ready to do it and then he did. He didn't do it. And you know, if he doesn't reach base, if they're not able to pinch him. As an aside, what, what good fortune for Venezuela that that stolen base was called safe on the field because I don't think you could have overturned it based on the views we had. But I also think that if he had been called out, you wouldn't have been able to flip it the other way either. So that was a real call on the field. Really matters kind of a moment.
- [38:04]
A
That was bold. Yeah, it was a. Was a nifty steal as it worked out, but quite a risky one as well. So. Yeah, that was really exciting and frankly, I'm glad that it ended in nine because if that thing had gone to extras, I don't know, I wouldn't want it to end in a zombie runner is There even Zombie Runner in wbc?
- [38:26]
B
I don't think so. Not probably should. Should be challenges though.
- [38:31]
A
Yeah. I mean I know Zombie Runner like started in international play in some tournaments and levels and softball and everything but. But I actually forget whether it's a part of the WBC rule set, but I wouldn't have wanted it to happen either way. I wouldn't have wanted to to end with a Zombie Runner and I also would not because of just the impositions on the pitchers and they just didn't have that many arms. So realistically you just couldn't have gone that long and yeah, that would've had the potential to be quite a deflating ending. So I'm glad that it ended there.
- [39:02]
C
Before we move too far past it, I do think if you walk Louise arise, you deserve to lose that game.
- [39:07]
B
I think you're right. I think you're right. I think you do.
- [39:10]
C
That's just karmically correct.
- [39:12]
B
Yeah, I think that's right.
- [39:14]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I gotta say that I think this tournament was a great success on the whole. There were great games and great vibes Team USA accepted and heroes and upsets and surprises and a new champion and all the rest of it. And also apologies to Kyle Thiel but. But no truly serious injuries, no nothing season ending, nothing to stars and prominent players, which I think was a relief and a nice little reprieve. Again, I don't think the WBC actually demonstrably increases injury risk but I think people are all ready to jump all over it if and when that happens. So I'm glad that that didn't happen this time around.
- [39:58]
B
Yeah, I guess it was him and Suzuki, right? So say a Suzuki sprained his pcl, but he, he might even be available for opening day. They haven't made a determination there, but it sounds like the imaging didn't reveal any structural damage or anything like that.
- [40:13]
C
And I think that just goes to show how reactionary we can be to those things because the last wbc, there's the Altuve injury, there's the Edwin Diaz injury and then all of the sudden no players can get insured and there's all this hand wringing among fans and front office members and, and all of that. And then this year's WBC we go through basically unscathed and it's fine. So I, I would hope, I know this isn't going to happen, but I would hope that maybe we could learn from that, that we could just like be cool and understand that sometimes things happen. But I Know that we can't do that.
- [40:48]
A
Yeah.
- [40:49]
B
I wonder, you know, there was. There was talk of this in the booth. Oh, sorry. Speaking of the booth and the broadcast, what was going on with Fox last night? This was a problem earlier in the tournament too, but the cuts that they were making on that broadcast there. There was time where you were missing action because they weren't.
- [41:08]
A
Yes.
- [41:09]
B
Like what. What's going on?
- [41:10]
A
Well, yeah, there were some. Some replays where we came back to the action mid swing. Yeah, that stuff happens. I guess it's spring trading for broadcasters, too. Yeah, no, you got to get your act together. And of course, there was the Trevor Tyler Rogers mix up where they showed Trevor Rogers's stats on the screen when Tyler Rogers entered. So that's. That's a new one.
- [41:31]
C
You.
- [41:31]
A
You would have thought maybe they'd screw up Tyler and Taylor, but no, it was Tyler and Trevor. So throwing us for a little loop there. That was fun.
- [41:39]
B
Not a. Not a Tyler or a Taylor, but a secret third thing.
- [41:42]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [41:44]
C
One of the. One of the weird goofs that I really enjoyed was they came back from commercial at one one point, and they wanted to highlight that Wilson Contreras was in the game at first base, but it was a really abrupt cut over there. And so right back in from commercial, the first thing you see is like, William Wilson Contreras almost in the splits.
- [42:03]
B
Yes.
- [42:03]
C
Yielding the warmup throw.
- [42:05]
B
Yes.
- [42:06]
C
And I was like, that's. That's lovely.
- [42:09]
B
Yeah. Yeah. There were some. Some funny moments, but overall, my. My request to the Fox team is, hey, tighten up over there. You know, I also think that we should have. I understand. You know, this is true. Like, when you watch an Olympics broadcast in the US There tends to be a pro USA slant right in. In much the same way that I'm sure the way the game was called in Venezuela was, you know, in favor of the Venezuelan team. There's a lot of. Of us thrown around in that broadcast booth last night, and I. I just think, like, hey, this is an international competition. You would be broadcasting this game regardless of whether or not Team USA had advanced. Right. If we had gotten a Dr. Venezuela final, they. They still would have broadcast the finale and I assume had Joe Davis and Smoltz in there. So, like, you could approach it as if you were just to.
- [43:08]
A
Going.
- [43:08]
B
Calling game seven World Series, Joe, you know, try to have some objectivity there, even though you're regularly the. The Dodgers broadcast. I have. I have a bunch of notes about the end of the thing.
- [43:19]
A
I think another nice thing and Maybe this is just a reflection of the fact that it largely went off without a hitch, is that I didn't hear a lot of griping about the timing and questions about whether this should be played at another time in another way, which always comes up. And sure, it's, it's fair to bring up and we've certainly considered it on podcast, but the idea of should it be after the season, should it be mid season? And we'll see how the latter goes presumably in a couple years when there's maybe a mid season Olympics break so that the big leaguers will play. But I'm fine with the way it works now. I mean, there are certainly compromises. Yes. And you're always going to have some sort of limitations on pitcher usage, regardless of when it is. And if you did it after the season, no one's going to want to play at that point. Right? I mean, you're going to be worn down. No one's going to want extra innings on their arms. I think that would be worse, probably. I get that you're, you're stretched out already and now you're kind of ramping up and you're on pitch count restrictions and everything. But by that point you're going to get more guys who are fatigued, who just want to go home and who have, you know, just like reasons not to participate at that point or they're hurt or whatever it is. So I think this is better than that. And I also think that compared to mid season, look, that might work, but that's disruptive in other ways. I'm kind of okay with the way it works now. And there's always going to be a bit of a conflict between this matters and this is huge and this is the biggest baseball competition. But also some people don't want to play and also you can't use them unless it's a save situation or whatever. Right. So that does detract from it a little bit. But I think that's becoming less and less of a problem as players and teams take it more and more seriously. So it's a compromise, but it's a compromise I'm okay with and I don't think there's ever going to be a perfect fit for it.
- [45:22]
C
Yeah, I'm mostly fine with the timing. I am curious to see how it works with the Olympus Olympics, assuming that they do let MLB players participate, because I do think you get the sense that maybe this was part of the problem with Team USA's offense, that guys aren't fully, you know, ramped up at this point. And that does come through a little bit. I don't think it's detrimental to the, to the product, but you. You can see that there. And so I'll be curious to see how it works for the Olympics. And maybe if it's successful, they would consider moving the timing. But, yeah, I don't. I don't think it's a huge problem. And I do think that speaks to the. The power that the players have in shaping these narratives, because if they're fully bought in and they're just focused on the task at hand and what they're there to do, and they're not giving a lot of quotes about, you know, how weird it is with the timing or we're not hearing, well, I couldn't participate because of the timing from a bunch of players that you would otherwise expect to be on, on a national team. I think that makes a huge difference in how those things are talked about.
- [46:25]
A
Yeah, there was the Harper comment earlier in the tournament about the Olympics meaning more than the wbc. And on some level that's kind of true. I mean, just when it comes to the tradition and what it means to a lot of the participants or spectators. He said the WBC has been great, but it's not the Olympics. It's no disrespect to WBC or anything, but everybody knows that when the Olympics are on, everybody's watching. I'm hoping LA28 happens. So the contrast just coming straight out of the Winter Olympics, getting huge ratings and people all over the world paying attention, it's not quite the same as the wbc, but for players, I think for many players or most players, it's kind of equivalent. And it's not as if there's a long legacy of MLB players playing in the Olympics. So that was seen as a slight. I guess it sort of was. I don't think he meant it to be really taking a shot at the WBC or anything, but at the time he said it, when you had other people singing the praises of the tournament and how much it mattered, it. It sounded a little bit like sour grapes, maybe, but I don't know if he really intended it that way. And there's probably some truth to it, but on the whole, it seemed like people were really taking this pretty darn seriously.
- [47:42]
B
Yeah, I do wonder, you know, you don't want to overstate the case in the other direction either, but I do wonder if there's, you know, real value to these guys participation just in terms of, like, you're Never going to be able to simulate the game experience of the WBC in spring training. Like, I can't imagine being any of these guys come, like, like, you're Cal, Raleigh, you're coming back to Arizona to play Cactus League games when it's gonna be 107 degrees on Friday. Which, as I said, Carrie, what are we doing here?
- [48:16]
C
We gotta get out here.
- [48:17]
B
This is bad. This is bad business that we got going on down here. But, like, can you imagine how much you'd be dragging ass going back to, like, Peoria? And this is a disrespect to the good people of Peoria. There are many fine channels, chain restaurants out there, but it's just not going to be the same as, like, you know, Lone Depot park with a full house of people who really care and are losing their minds over the, the play on the field. So I, I know that the guys aren't like, fully ready and there is disruption in camp that's caused by guys coming in and out. And I'm sure that, you know, there are probably people who work for teams who'd rather that their guys choose just stay there. You know, I imagine, especially in a year like this where, like, you're trying to get your catchers in particular tuned up for the ABS challenge system to not have them in camp, maybe you feel like there's a particular downside, but also, like, I don't know, you just had this kind of like, blood pumping in March and I don't know how else you replicate that outside of WBC play. Seems like that might have some benefit to these guys being like, like, amped and ready to go.
- [49:26]
A
Yeah. Yeah, it. It really ended on a high note. And maybe it can't quite compare for many spectators to Trout and Ohtani. It's tough to top that, but came about as close as it possibly could have without that sort of magical moment happening. It was quite magical this one, too. There were, though, some other comments by players that I wanted to highlight here about the WBC vis a vis the World Series.
- [49:55]
B
Yeah.
- [49:56]
A
And elevating the WBC over the World Series and then the reaction to that. And this was coming from some sources who. It's pretty significant to hear this from them. So Julio Rodriguez said, and he was asked, you know, some of these players were teed up and they were put on the spot and just like, which matters more. Obviously. They both matter a lot. So I don't really know why we need to, you know, force them to choose, but some of them were quite willing to choose the wbc. And Julio said, being honest, I love the Mariners. They know I give my best for them every single time that I step on the field. But winning the World Baseball Classic would be top of the list. This is for my country, this is for my town, this is for my people, my neighborhood, everybody in the Dominican Republic. So I would say winning the World Baseball Classic would be number one. And Aaron Judge, who I guess was sort of maybe specifically talking about the crowd and the environment, but also kind of about the event at large, he said, said, it's bigger and better than the World Series. The passion that these fans have representing their country, representing some of their favorite players, there's nothing like it. And coming from those two players specifically, I thought that was pretty meaningful because there's a lot of pressure on those guys to win the World Series and to pretend that the World Series is the be all, end all, because the Mariners have never won one. So I'm sure Mariners players are hesitant to suggest that there's any goal above that goal that has eluded the organization for so long. And yet Julio still stepped out on that limb and said, yeah, they both matter a whole heck of a lot, but this would matter even more. And Aaron Judge, of course, we know about the whole count the rings kind of culture and championship or bust and everything else is a failure. And the whole sort of Steinbrenner mentality, the senior Steinbrenner. And so for Judge, who was the captain of the US Team, but also the captain of the WBC team, to come out and say something like that, I mean, I don't know, there might be Yankees fans who are reading that and thinking, I don't love that sentiment too. If they don't care as much about the WBC and they're thinking, hey, Aaron, would be nice if you would win a World Series sometime in your career, because it's been just a veritable eternity since 2009, which of course course predates Aaron Judge's time with the Yankees. So I thought for them both to say that was pretty significant and pretty meaningful and to invoke another Yankees captain, Derek Jeter, he was on the Fox Post Game Show, I think, and he was questioning this notion that the WBC is bigger than the World Series. And of course, he had to say, I think the people that say it's bigger than the World Series never played in a World Series.
- [52:42]
B
But that's not true.
- [52:43]
A
It's not true. Derek, give me a break. I mean, why do you have to be so corny all the Time, just a great player. So cool when you were a player.
- [52:54]
B
But like he was corny when he was a player too.
- [52:58]
C
He was.
- [52:58]
A
He absolutely was. And I grew up rooting for Derek Jeter to win World Series is. And I'm grateful for those memories and yet I find it hard to feel any personal connection or fondness for that man because it's just the most milquetoast, robotic, cliched. Yes, we get it. You won a lot of World Series and that's all that matters. And you still have to sort of uphold that party line. And yeah, it's not true. Obviously Aaron Judge played in a World Series, so he knows of what he speaks. And then Kike Hernandez, who has played in five World Series is it he's won three of them, right? Yeah. He said that the WBC is more important to him than the World Series. Yeah, he said I've played in five World Series and I don't know if it's because of what's across my chest, but the Classic feels above that. So no, it's not that. You had to be there and these guys haven't been there and you Derek Cheater several time championship and just knows what it's like better than everyone else. No, but I don't know that that many people questioned those comments. And so I think the fact that they were willing to say those things and those particular players, again just speaks to how meaningful and significant this event is.
- [54:16]
C
Yeah, I think my overarching thought on all of that is people should just be allowed to prioritize different things and have different values. That's okay. And you know, as far as like a player like Julio goes, I think it makes complete sense that he would feel more invested in the Dominican team. Like he cited, you know, the, the community that he's, that he's playing for and he's been playing with those Dominican teammates for much longer than he's been in, you know, affiliated ball. And he has a much stronger, stronger connection to the doctor than he does to Seattle. I'm sure he loves Seattle. It seems like he fits in really well there, but it's not gonna be the same, you know. And as far as Derek Jeter goes, like he. They showed this video in one of the post game wrap up shows of him in the car, like giving his kids some sort of pep talk before a sporting event or something. And he stole starts out really like, you know, calm and emotionally adjusted and telling them that, you know, as long as they try their hardest, he'll be proud of them. And at some point, like, this switch flips in his mind and he goes back to the captain mode and, like, just goes into, you know, this whole. Gets very enthusiastic about how winning is the only thing that matters, and then whoever is filming it has to kind of, like, reel him back in. Yeah, it was very funny. And I think that is, like, the internal battle that's happening within him all the time.
- [55:47]
A
Yeah, it makes it more frustrating because I do think he has a personality. It's in there somewhere. And yet, even though he is employed in a position that draws upon that, that's supposed to showcase that, he so rarely actually exhibits it. And he's still just so buttoned down. And it's quite a contrast to David Ortiz, who he's often sharing a set with, with even a rod, for that matter. I just, like, show me what you actually think. And if that's all you actually think, well, that's pretty boring. And I don't know why you're doing this job. You were very good at baseball, but I don't know that anyone really thought that we needed to have jerk Jeter in a broadcast booth, because this is the caliber of the insights that he's sharing. We heard this long enough, Derek.
- [56:28]
B
Yeah, I think that here you're right, that it's just, like, people can just come to their understanding of the game differently, and it's fine. I mean, it would. It would seem sort of silly for anyone who's, like, ostensibly on the side of Team USA to criticize other players for saying, oh, this is more important than the World Series, when your. Your entire vibe is like, usa, usa. Right. Like, it clearly is, you know, such a formative part of people's identities. The notion that it would be different, it just seems misguided. Especially since, like, I don't know, like, you. You go to the doctor of Venezuela. This is the. The show, right? Like, baseball is such a important part of the broader culture. It occupies a place in, you know, those countries understandings of their national identities that is, like, at this point, I think, much more akin to, like, what the NFL would be for a lot of Americans. And it makes total sense to me that you would put primacy around that and being able to link, like, this thing that you're so good and passionate at with, you know, an understanding of your national identity, it seems perfectly reasonable. I. I sit here unoffended as a Mariners fan, right? Like that Julio thinks that, you know, winning the WBC is. Is marginally more important. I don't think he's like, oh, I get to phone it in the rest of the season. Like, come on.
- [57:51]
A
No. Yeah. And. And the WBC has obviously attained extra importance since Derek Jeter'. Maybe he's not fully appreciating how much this means to American players, specifically these days. Or maybe there's some aspect of feeling threatened. Like his reputation is entirely based on his being a winner and having all those rings. And so if people are suddenly suggesting that there's a shinier ring that's more important than the rings he has and he didn't win one, well then maybe that detracts from the luster of his legacy or something. But Derek, I don't think you need to worry about that particularly. So. So relax. Anyway, I did want to say that that semis matchup between the doctor and the US was just like kind of an awe inspiring collection of baseball talent. Yeah, I just, I want to recognize that and appreciate that because that's the kind of thing maybe we won't have to reminisce about how wonderful it was because they'll still be playing WBCS and we'll be seeing that thing for the rest the of of our time as baseball fans. But that's just like a legendary collection of players and just legendary lineups. And everywhere you look and all the stats about the All Star appearances and the MVP votes and just h it's so, so stardust studded. And we did get a question from Russell Patreon supporter who asked like, is this the most baseball talent in the lineups in one game in MLB history or baseball history, could this be the highest combined previous season wars? And Russell said excluding All Star games because those are more of an exhibition. And I linked him to an MLB.com piece that actually compared the previous year war of those lineups to all the recent All Star games. And this was more of an All Star lineup than the All Star game lineups like it. It outstripped, stripped even those in terms of previous year fan graphs war. So there is a case to be made maybe that that was the most baseball talent ever assembled in a single game. I'm. I'm trying to rack my brain to think of what could be better. At least the total talent on the roster, but also the caliber of the lineups. So pretty special to see all those guys playing in a single game. And it was a pretty good game too. But regardless of that, just, just such a spectacle.
- [60:14]
C
Well, what stood out from that game for me as well is like the variety of different types of games you get in the wbc. Like, I think, you know, people sort of unabashedly love the games that are really high scoring and have a lot of back and forth and lead changes. But that game, I just felt like I was holding my breath for the entire game and I wasn't strongly rooting for anyone. And that's its own kind of like special and cool as well. So again, it just goes back to this whole thing with the WBC where you've got so many different things that are objectively cool and fun in different ways. And I think going into that game, people probably expected the doctor to do what they had been doing and score a bunch of runs. And then when they did it, it just sort of turned all that on its head and put everyone really on edge in a way that was really fascinating to watch.
- [61:03]
A
And we should talk a little bit about the bad calls here. And there were some bad calls on both sides, but obviously the, the most noteworthy and worst and most consequential calls were the one on Soto in the eighth and then the game ender against Perdomo in the ninth. And that was a bummer because that was a great game and the great talent we just talked about and you don't really want that kind of contest to end on a bad call like that. And obviously the contrast now that we're all adjusting already to the challenge system. Yeah, and this is it very much reminded me of 2023 in the WBC when all the experimental rules were being tested and the pitch clock was in place in spring training and then the WBC was sort of the last holdout and it almost already felt old fashioned. And that happened here too particularly. The Perdomo call obviously was just way low. I mean it wasn't even particularly close. And maybe Blazer, the home plate umpire just got caught up in the moment. I don't know if there's, there's home cooking, there's unconscious bias going on here. Who knows, maybe it was just a bad call because those happened. But yeah, it was, it was bad. I guess for MLB's sake, maybe it's a great endorsement advertisement for the challenge system. Hey, this won't happen again, but I'm sure even MLB would not have wanted this to happen at that very important time.
- [62:30]
B
Is the thinking behind. I mean, I know that the implementation in, in the majors has not yet like happened. So maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself. But is the thinking behind there not being a challenge system in WBC play just that, you know, some of the, the smaller programs won't have had time to like train their guys on it. Like, is that the reason that we don't have it? Because that's not a, that's not a bad reason. Right? Like you don't, you don't want, you know, Great Britain's guys to be, I mean a lot of those guys are big leaguers, but you know what I mean? Like the smaller programs, you don't want them to be at a disadvantage because they don't have an opportunity to get game reps on the challenge system.
- [63:08]
A
Yes. Yeah, we, we got an email from listener Brad just today who asked about that. Assuming there's some advantage to getting reps at challenging, particularly for catchers, doesn't this put countries slash leagues without this setup at a disadvantage? Obviously the WBC included several new rule implementations, pitch clock limiting pickoff attempts, etc. But those don't require the same technological setups that ABS calls for. Maybe the Australian Baseball League has something similar, but I'd imagine that not all international leagues are set up for something like ABS to be used regularly. I would guess that by the time the next WBC rolls around, this might be in other leagues too. Maybe it'll be in npb. I don't know. But yeah, I, I would think there's something to that. So maybe kind of keep it consistent, level playing field. I could also imagine though that the next time they play a WBC it will just be so ingrained in MLB that they might just use it because it would be weird for fans at that point to be deprived of it. So they might just say like it or lump it I guess or you know, prepare the best you can. But it does seem like yes, if you are someone who is not a, a full time affiliated ball player and, and you haven't had that exposure to this that that would add to the difficulty.
- [64:21]
C
I also think they would probably with a, a pretty like large structural change like that, they'd probably want to introduce it earlier in like the qualifying rounds like earlier cycle of the WBC so that they're not changing the rules midstream as it were. And that way at least, you know, some of these countries that don't have it, they, they, they tend to have to play more qualifying games in the first place to get in. So they would at least get some exposure at that level.
- [64:47]
A
Yeah, we got a question about Perdomo taking that game ending pitch. This was from Kevin Patreon supporter who said my wife who still plays f softball and who is the athlete in the family just showed Me the last pitch of the WBC game last night and said too close to take. Meaning it was a bad call, but was too close to take. Will the challenge system mark the end of the pitch? That is too close to take. And Kevin said, I've been listening to my in laws say something is too close to take for 12 years. I'll be kind of sad to hear it go. And I did hear this refrain a lot. I saw people replying when people were bemoaning how bad a call it was. They were putting some of the onus on Perdomo and saying, yeah, but too close to take, you gotta, you gotta swing in that situation. And I don't think that's true really. I guess in retrospect, knowing that he got rung up maybe, and obviously there's some chance that that happens, but if he swings, then bad outcomes could happen too. And that pitch was far enough below the strike zone that it really should not have been called strike. It was a, it was a notably bad call I saw. I'm sure many pitch model people weighed in, but the director of baseball opposite Driveline, Jack Lambert said that their model viewed this pitch as 60% chance of a swing, 40% chance of a take if no swing, 0.5% chance of a called strike. So again, this wasn't just a run of the mill bad call. This was a really bad call. And if swing 63% chance of a whiff. So if he had swung, it actually probably would have been a bad decision because the odds were that he would have whiffed or there would have been a high likelihood that he could have whiffed on that pitch. And if he had taken it, then the likelihood, unfortunately for him, not in this particular case, but on the whole, would be that it would be called a ball. And Lambert said, model trained on MLB data. So not accounting for WBC umpiring, but not surprised our swing decision model had this as an elite decision to take that pitch. So yeah, I don't think Perdomo deserves blame for taking that pitch and taking the chance. Cause taking a swing is also taking a chance. And, and he just got jobbed on this one.
- [67:06]
B
Yeah, like I, I understand the notion that you have to protect, but it was, I mean, he did, he did the thing that people are not able to do in that moment, which is lay off of Mason Miller. You know, like, sure, he might have whiffed and he also might have like hit a weak grounder that would have been fielded and that would have been the end of the game, it was so far below the zone. Zone relative to it. It was really a shame. And it's just for that to be like, this is why we have the challenge system. Like, pitches like that are precisely what you, you don't want to have a major important game end on. I mean, you don't want any game to end on it. But like, in a situation like that where it's international play, it's for advancement, for it to end that way is. It's just a real bummer. And there's no, you know, it's no guarantee that they would have been able to, to, to rally back and win, but they sure weren't able to after that call.
- [68:04]
A
Yeah, I think there's a misconception that players can just foul pitches off at will, and it's just not true. There are very few players in this era. We're not talking we Willy Keeler here. So, like, given the stuff that pitchers are throwing these days, there aren't many players, if any, with a real repeatable, demonstrable skill to foul off pitches intentionally. I've, I've studied this, other people have studied this to see if there's some repeatable skill and there just aren't a lot of guys who have some notable capacity to do that. So, yeah, I think just assuming that, oh, he should have just fouled that one off. Well, no, if, if he swings, then there's quite a good chance that he misses. It's Mason Miller after all. And so it, it was the right call to take and it was just the wrong result for him. I do wonder though, whether that idea of too close to take is that just obsolete now. Is there still such a thing as too close to take? Obviously, not every call is going to be perfect and not everything is going to be challenged because you only have so many challenges and not every situation is going to be worth using one of them. So I think it still exists to an extent, but I don't know how much sense it made in many of the times when people would say it, even pre abs I don't know.
- [69:23]
B
I'm hesitant to say yes, it's definitely behind us just because it's not like every pitch is gonna get challenged. So some of, some of the, like, base state of the game as it's been just is gonna persist. And guys have built like a lifetime's worth of muscle memory about like when you protect and when you don't. So I, I don't, I don't know that we're gonna see that disappear. Or if we, if we do, I think it'll take a while. That'll be a really gradual transition. But maybe I'm, maybe I'm wrong.
- [69:53]
A
And I remember a Russell Carlton piece about how just players don't really protect that they don't necessarily have two strike swings the way that they used to. They, to some extent they do, but mostly you're trying to do damage, you're trying to hit the ball hard and maybe more of them should adapt to that situation possibly, but that's kind of what they've been coached and taught to do. And so yeah, it's not as if they, and for the most part most players have just sort of a two strike approach that's completely different and more contact oriented. We're not talking Luis arise here in those cases.
- [70:28]
C
Yeah, I do think the too close to take approach does tend to apply more thoroughly in high leverage situations which are ones where you would challenge. So I could see it declining a little bit. But I agree with Meg's point that I think it's going to take a while to undo that hard wiring that is ingrained so deeply into these guys.
- [70:50]
A
And look, I hope that we never end up in a situation like that where there's a game that consequential and a call that consequential and a team is out of challenges because you play enough games and enough seasons, that's bound to happen at some point. I think it would be fairly rare, but they do play a lot of games end season, so it would happen at some point. And I do wonder whether that would be. As you know, I'm, I'm always wondering, is this just an intermediate step? Is this just a stop along the path to full abs or is this the end goal with the pitch clock? It was one thing you implemented the pitch clock and yep, that solved the problem and that's. That's it, mission accomplished, more or less, with some occasional minor tweaks here and there. Whereas with the challenge system, there might be tweaks to the challenge system. It might be just more challenges or whatever it is, but then if you start adding more challenges, then does that decrease the distinction between the challenge system and full abs? And you just say, well, if you're going to give the team this many challenges when they always have one, why don't we just give them essentially an automatic challenge on every pitch and make it full abs? Or if there's a high profile situation like this, imagine there's a call like that in a situation like that and a team is out of challenges. Then suddenly, yes, you could say, well, they should have planned better and they mismanaged and everything. But, but we'll be right back in that situation where there's no recourse. And I kind of think that it, it might take only one high profile, agonizing situation like that for, for the calls to increase. For. Why don't we just go whole hog here? Why, why do the half measure, as some say? And why don't we make sure that we get all the calls right and that we don't even allow for the possibility that a crucial call could be bungled that way.
- [72:36]
B
So it'll be, it'll be like, like Zach Charbonnet on the two point conversion.
- [72:40]
A
Exactly. That's exactly.
- [72:42]
B
You're a general ball knower now. You gotta know about that. You know, where everyone's like, oh, I guess we gotta jump on top of footballs. Because you never know, there might be two points hiding under there. Should go look at it, Ben, you'll be so confused. I can't wait for you to see it.
- [72:57]
C
Along those lines, I do think people are always gonna find something to complain about and demand and rule changes in order to address their complaint. And for better or worse, the onus is on Major League Baseball to determine the validity of those complaints and whether or not that is actually a problem or something that just feels bad in the moment. And so hopefully, you know, greater heads will prevail. There's not necessarily a great track record of that. So if there is enough outcry, maybe Mob three feels forced to go full, full abs. But I, I would hope anyways that they are not overly swayed by what tends to be a very loud minority of complainers.
- [73:43]
A
And the last big question that I want to pose to you to is when do we get more wbc? When should they play this thing again? When will the next WBC be and when should it be? It's probably 2029. That's kind of the tentative plan, but that's sort of subject to CBA stuff. So nothing's really set in stone. It's strange for the WBC to end and not know with certainty when the next WBC will be. But it's varied and obviously there was Covid and everything, but at first it was, it should be four years and then, well, maybe it should be three years and then we kind of got knocked off kilter. So it seems like they're leaning toward every three years. It's just, it's so fun, you know, it's the contrast between The WBC years and the non WBC years and you go back to grapefruit and Cactus League action next year. I mean, hopefully. Hopefully there's something I was gonna say, right.
- [74:45]
B
But this time next year, we're gonna be like, I can't wait to go to a camp. Yeah. Exist.
- [74:49]
A
Yeah. What is the proper cadence? What is the ideal rhythm here? Because there's part of me that feels like. And I. I wrote something to this effect last year when I was just like, we demand more WBCs. It's just. Would I actually get sick of this if they did it every year? Like, if they played in 2027, would I say, h, this again, the WBC? Do we need to do this already? Is it even special? Obviously, doing it every three years or however many makes it more special and the scarcity just makes it more of a draw. But I, I can't help but think that I would watch it every year if they did it every year. You know, we're. We're the sickos. Of course we would. But still, is. Is three years the best choice?
- [75:37]
C
I think it probably is, because I think if you did it every year or even every other year, I think player participation would dwindle a lot. I think part of what allows them to justify, in their minds, leaving their big league camps and abandoning their teams for that amount of time and the all important, you know, dog days of March and the Cactus and Grapefruit leagues, that they justify taking that step away because it is once every three years. It's something that doesn't happen every day. And they want to do it, you know, while they're in their prime and, and feel like they can actually contribute to their national team. So I think as much as I too would watch it every single year, I think the quality would diminish due to player participation and it probably wouldn't be the same.
- [76:22]
B
And I do think you want to preserve a feeling of it being special. If they did the Olympics every year, I think we would grow tired of it. So I think having it build anticipation and, and what have you is nice. And I think there being some amount of gap does facilitate a certain degree of roster turnover. That is probably good, right? Because you have guys who are entering a different phase of their career when the next one comes around. And maybe participation isn't a given for them anymore. And so it's good to get new and fresh blood. And it also gives time for some of these smaller programs, I think, to continue. Continue to build out their capabilities. That's useful because Then you get a higher level of play from them the next time they come and participate than you necessarily would have if they have to gear up like a year later. And I like that part of it where you're like, oh, this is like, you know, maybe the next time we see Team Italy we'll have more like, you know, attack. I just can say Italian Italians, you know what I mean? I'm not trying to diminish like Vinnie Password Squintino's Italianness, like just listen to the guy's last name. But you know, Italians from Italy who grow up playing baseball in Italy, like as you allow more time for these, you know, sort of things to bear fruit, I think you get a different composition of the player pool that can be kind of cool.
- [77:45]
A
And obviously there, there is some just operational challenges to doing it more often. Not to the degree that they're is with the Olympics or with the World cup for instance. There are qualifiers, but there aren't as many qualifiers. And yes, you have to schedule them and players have other obligations and it's multiple countries and everything, but you probably could kind of cram it in if you tried every two years at least. The Olympics, of course, it's just such a whole production and not that many places even want to host the Olympics anymore. But it's just, you know, you have to to build out facilities and just people come from so many countries and they have to prepare for so long in the World cup there's so many qualifiers that the wbc, it would be a little more manageable. I think you could do it more frequently if you wanted to. But you're probably right. We probably should deprive ourselves of WBCS to make it all the more special and savor it next time. It's just a tough pill to swallow, I think, to say now we go from the excitement of all of that to being WBC list for at least three more years. And granted, I guess this time we will probably, hopefully maybe have the Olympics to tide us over in 2028. Obviously you probably wouldn't want those to coincide and be in the same year. So that helps in this case because we might have MLP players in the Olympics that we won't have to go quite as long as without that high level international competition. But in general, I don't know. I definitely think three, not four, but I could be persuaded. I'm certainly tempted to push it to two because that's how good it is. It has advertised itself, it has made me want more of it. So mission accomplished. Wbc. And I also think that it was kind of cool how baseball slotted into this really murderous row of international sporting events to start this year.
- [79:45]
B
Yeah.
- [79:45]
A
Because much has been made of how this is maybe one of the best years ever when it comes to just international tournaments. And we go right from the Olympics and then you have the World cup and there's just so much on tap and March Madness is about to start. You know, it's like it worked out quite well because it, it slotted in neatly between these other big draws and baseball kind of got to corner the calendar there for a little while and it didn't have to go head to head. Okay. Granted, the USDR game had to go up against the Oscars. Maybe that wasn't ideal, but in terms of other sporting events and competitions, there was a little lull and baseball just got to be part of this complicated. Of awesome tournaments and showcases for great athletic talent. And so quite pleased with the way that worked out too. And, and it felt like a very deserving part of that lineup of great events.
- [80:48]
B
Yeah.
- [80:48]
A
Okay. We enjoyed watching it, we enjoyed following it, we enjoyed discussing it today and enjoyed reading your previews, Kiri, and talking to you again. So thank you very much for joining us.
- [81:02]
C
Yeah, I enjoyed being here. It was lovely to chat that.
- [81:05]
A
Any last thoughts from anyone? We got it all off our chest until 2029.
- [81:10]
C
I do think we should not leave without remarking upon Julio's catch in the semifinal game.
- [81:15]
B
Oh, yeah, that was cool.
- [81:17]
A
As, was it technically a robbery or was it top of the. Well, I don't know. Either way, it was awesome.
- [81:23]
C
It was cool.
- [81:24]
B
It was so cool.
- [81:26]
C
It was cool and he loved it and the crowd loved it. Great, great, great stuff.
- [81:31]
B
Yeah, I think that team Italy should upgrade their espresso setup the next time around. You know, there is something in sort of endearing about an off the shelf solution there, but I think just I want them to get like really ornate and intricate with it. I realize that might not work great in the dugout, but they, they have some time to figure out the optimal, optimal setup. I just think they can really up their game there, you know?
- [81:59]
A
Yeah. Because they had the nespresso pods. Right. Which I think is, yeah, more ballpark and dugout friendly, but it would be cool if they had some really top of the line, like artisanal, you know?
- [82:09]
B
Yeah.
- [82:10]
C
Just put a barista in there. It's fine.
- [82:12]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like make a little coffee bar, have a barista. The, the challenge though, is that the temptation to have that be Like a branded, endorsed setup seems high. And I. I don't want that. I just want it to be some Italian guy, you know, like, and in maybe like an actual Italian.
- [82:34]
C
Sure. But consider then the US could have a mini Taco Bell set up in their dugout as a representation of U.S. culture.
- [82:42]
B
Yeah.
- [82:43]
C
And they could make their home runs, Baja blasts.
- [82:46]
B
Okay. Okay. Yeah.
- [82:48]
C
I think it could work.
- [82:49]
B
And people might say, like, is that duplicative with Mexico? To which I would say, no, not at all. They're not.
- [82:55]
C
Not even a little bit.
- [82:56]
A
Taco Bell is a distinct cuisine.
- [82:58]
B
Yeah.
- [82:58]
C
Yes.
- [82:59]
B
Yeah. Its own regional flavor.
- [83:01]
A
Okay. Fun little tidbit spotted, or I suppose heard by listener Greg, who writes in to draw our attention to an instance of quote unquote strategy explicitly being discussed on a Yankees broadcast by the past and present Yankees managers. By strategy, of course, I mean the mid plate appearance pitching change, which I've written about and talked about many a time. It's a tactic that teams sometimes use at the college level, maybe in mlb the show, which, hey, new edition out now. But precious few instances of it happening purely for tactical reasons in an MLB game, as opposed to an entry removal or someone reaching their pitch count in the middle of a plate appearance or just running out of gas and the manager wanting to get them out of there before something bad happens. I mean, purely pressing the advantage, getting to two strikes and then making a change, which is legal, at least for now, to try to finish off the hitter with a fresh look from the pitcher. I've always been fascinated by this idea, even though if it actually caught on, it would be pretty terrible from a Spectator perspective. Anyway, Greg flagged this for us. This was from a Yankees game, February 25th, 5th of this year. Joe Gerardi was on the broadcast and his successor as Yankees manager, Aaron Boone, was miked up and Ryan Weathers was pitching. It was the fourth inning against the Nats, and Weathers hit his pitch count, which evidently was 49, which is kind of interesting. Not 50, 49. I guess that's how precisely calibrated these things are, unless Boone miscounted. And so Boone had to break, run out there, pull Weathers in favor of Danny Watson, and then come back, put the headset back on. And There was a 2:1 count on the batter, who was Caber Ruiz. And here's what Boone said. He brought this up unprompted. That's. That's the move I'm. I'm gonna pull at some point and for real in a game Anthony Rizzo would. And I would talk about that all the time. He's like, hey let's for the playoffs, let's go get a guy with two strikes, bring in a strikeout artist and we'll really, really jam them up.
- [85:00]
C
Yeah.
- [85:01]
A
So it's funny that you can hear Girardi say yeah, but not really seeming to acknowledge what Boone was saying. Because Girardi is the reason we refer to this as strategy. Because on August 4, 2015 when Joe Girardi was still managing the Yankees, he came out and made a pitching change with a 12 count. He removed lefty Justin Wilson and brought in righty Dellen Batansis. And Wilson after the game said he thought it was strange to be pulled mid plate appearance. And when asked to explain why he had done that, Girardi said said one word strategy. And as I explained in my article years ago, this may not have actually been why Girardi made that move, but Boone is acknowledging the potential advantage here. Evidently Anthony Rizzo was enamored of the idea. Rizzo, of course, now a broadcaster himself. And oh, if you're wondering, Ruiz eventually struck out. So how about that strategy is being discussed by at least one major league manager and as you may recall, Dave Roberts did do this in a game. So strategy sweeping big league dugouts one day soon. It happens with the Yankees sometime this season. Boone kind of gave us a heads up there strategy. It's maybe kind of catching on. Another thing that we hope we'll catch on Supporting the Podcast on Patreon, which you can do by going to patreon.com effectivelywild and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks as have the following five listeners. Everett Body is a Blade, Victoria Katie and Derek Knowles. Thanks to all of you. Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only, monthly bonus episodes, playoff live streams, prioritized email answers, personalized messages, shoutouts at the end of episodes, potential podcast appearances, discounts on merch and ad free fan Gust memberships, and so much more. Check out all the offerings@patreon.com effectivelywild if you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us to the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Email Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcastangraphts.com you can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Music and other podcast platforms. You can join our facebook group@facebook.com group effectively wild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit @r effectivelywild, and you can check the show notes in the podcast, posted fan graphs or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shay McKeon for his editing and production assistants. We'll be back with some bold predictions next time. Talk to you soon. I want to know about baseball. I want to know about every single team. I want to know about stats and fan raps and about oh oh oh, Tony. I'm a very modern fan. Reading up on all the analytics. I want to know about baseball Presented by Patreon supporters.