← Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Effectively Wild Episode 2472: Jason B. on NBC
01:54:28
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- [00:00]
Ben Lindbergh
I just a fan who wants nothing less than effectively wild.
- [00:10]
Meg Riley
Oh, wild oh, wild,
- [00:14]
Ben Lindbergh
oh, wild.
- [00:18]
Jason Benetti
Nothing less than effectively wild.
- [00:24]
Meg Riley
Hello and welcome to episode 2472 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraph Spaceball podcast, brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Riley, a fan, and I am joined by Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer. Ben, how are you?
- [00:36]
Ben Lindbergh
I'm doing well. And I have something to tell you. I thought you would be interested to know that the Royals have an espresso machine.
- [00:43]
Meg Riley
Oh, my God.
- [00:44]
Ben Lindbergh
It was reported by Jen Ramos Eisen. Vinnie Pasquintino said that there is an espresso machine in the Royals clubhouse in Kansas city. It's a DeLonghi and it has its own locker. So I am not a connoisseur of espresso machines. I looked up is DeLonghi a good one? And I some posts on the coffee subreddit. Yeah. And the consensus seemed to be perhaps among some coffee snobs, espresso snobs at R Coffee, that it's a decent starter espresso machine. You know, it's a good first espresso machine. I think it's probably an upgrade over the WBC model that Vinnie and his Team Italy teammates employed, but it's not top of the line. They haven't really gone all out and splurged here yet.
- [01:35]
Meg Riley
Do we know I'm going to reveal myself to be the worst. So do we know what kind of Delonghi they have?
- [01:43]
Ben Lindbergh
I don't know exactly. I'm sure. I'm sure that prices and features vary, but they do. Yeah.
- [01:49]
Meg Riley
I think. I think. Is my understanding of this correct? I think that Nespresso is a Delonghi brand, maybe.
- [01:59]
Ben Lindbergh
Okay.
- [02:00]
Meg Riley
And I want to be clear. I'm not weird about this there. I know I sound like I'm being very weird about this. I'm weird about other stuff. I have an appreciation for coffee. It is not. I'm not a connoisseur by any means. I am familiar with some of the various brands. But yeah, I believe Nespresso is a Delonghi. I don't know if it's.
- [02:25]
Ben Lindbergh
I think they're. They're partners. I'm gleaning maybe Delonghi makes machines for Nespresso and so they're sort of branded Nespresso by DeLonghi.
- [02:34]
Meg Riley
Yeah, it's sort of like how if you get one of those bougie drawer microwaves, they tell you that, like, sharp makes all the interior, like, pieces for all of the brands and then they just Slap more expensive fronts on it anyway. That's so great. Is he the only one to use it though? This is, this is my question because. Well, I'm sure that there are coffee appreciators in MLB clubhouses.
- [02:58]
Ben Lindbergh
They're not all energy drinkers.
- [03:00]
Meg Riley
Yeah, well, you got to be careful with that. You know, I know they're telling you be careful with that. Like the, I think like the PA and the league tell you to be careful with that because some of the ingredients are, you know, illicit stimulants. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyone who has ever had a Celsius will be like this surely can't be legal. You know, and I say that as someone who survived the initial run of 4 logo all of that to say you don't want to go too far in the other direction. Right. Like, you know, we, we tend to of espresso as sort of a fancy thing, which I don't think that's true. I think all kinds of people drink espresso, but you don't want to assume that they're like Folgers or nothing, you know, can bring them too low. You know. But I am curious who, who all is. Is it one of the automatic ones? Because you know, they make ones, they come pre programmed to make various espresso drinks and then you like push the button and it does its thing and sometimes you know, they come with like a little vessel to do foam.
- [04:02]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [04:02]
Meg Riley
You know, to, to make you frothy foam. But some of them are. Are manual. Like you have to do all the various parts of making espresso.
- [04:13]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. Some assembly required. Yeah. You'd think maybe this is more automated. But it does seem that Vinnie has maybe raised his espresso game slightly since the wbc. And we will find out whether being beaned up helps the Royals overcome their slow start. And I just figured that people might want to know the current caffeine delivery system of a former effectively wildcast.
- [04:37]
Meg Riley
Well, and you know, it would be tempting to attribute some of their recent success perhaps to the, the newly beaned up nature of their clubhouse because you
- [04:48]
Ben Lindbergh
know, I don't know, when they procured this machine, maybe it was there for the slow start or maybe they decided, well, we need something.
- [04:56]
Meg Riley
Yeah, we need pre and post espresso machine splits because it's been going better of late, you know.
- [05:03]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [05:03]
Meg Riley
They've won four of their last five. Two in. In. In walk off fashion. Dramatic walk off fashion.
- [05:08]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. So additional reporting required. I think there's more of a story here for anyone who wants to do Some digging through the coffee beans, I guess. There are no beans exactly in this situation. Well, it depends.
- [05:20]
Meg Riley
So it depends.
- [05:21]
Ben Lindbergh
In other effectively wild guests, news related to Central we are talking to Jason Benetti today.
- [05:28]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [05:28]
Ben Lindbergh
Who is the new national play by play voice of Sunday Night Baseball on NBC. So we're going to talk about his new job and the path he took to get to it and also his old job that is still his current job too, which is being a Tigers broadcaster. We'll talk a little Tigers, too. We'll talk about how he juggles all of those things, his philosophy of broadcasting in the booth and how he handles and wrangles having a local voice join him in the national booth each week. New local voices each week. It is a fun conversation because it's Jason Benetti. And we will also talk about corporate mascots. So you can look forward to that. Some particular corporate mascots. In other news, obviously we have to talk about another managerial dismissal here. So another podcast, another manager getting the axe. This time it's Topper. It's Rob Thompson of the Phillies has been given the boot, shown the door by Dave Dombrowski. And this was not as much of a surprise. Well, the circumstances, I suppose, were not quite as surprising. It's surprising that Rob Thompson was fired in April, given that he has been quite successful and the Phillies have been quite successful during his tenure and they were expected to be good again. And obviously they have not been good. And so it's not surprising in that sense. And it's less surprising than the Red Sox mass firing from the other day because this was more of a targeted deal. This was just Rob Thompson, not a almost clean sweep of the staff. It was a more traditional dismissal. Just let's fire the manager because our team's off to a slow start and we'll promote the bench coach, who in this case is Don Mattingly. And it came after a loss, not a blowout win. Although similarly, the Phillies rebounded in their first post Thompson game and unlucky Luzardo Jesus Lizardo, who had had er, not at all matching the peripherals. The luck regressed all at once and unlucky Lucardo got luckier. So I guess credit to Don Mattingly for lowering Jesus Lucardo's babip all at once. But the Phillies had a shutout victory in the first game of the Mattingly era. So lots to discuss here, but a little less strange circu circumstances in a way. Although I guess there are respects in which it's stranger because maybe it made more sense that the Red Sox needed a change than the Phillies, if you know what I'm saying.
- [08:03]
Meg Riley
I'll be honest with you. When I heard this news, my initial reaction was, and Carlos Mendoza still has a job.
- [08:09]
Ben Lindbergh
I know. So looking around like, right, is it my turn?
- [08:13]
Meg Riley
Yeah. That was honestly my first.
- [08:14]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [08:15]
Meg Riley
My first reaction of like, I don't know that it's surprising insofar as, yes, this team has been good under his tenure. I think Phillies fans would probably tell you that it has been good, but disappointing because they have only get over that hump. I think it's surprising insofar as the things that seem to be ailing the Phillies. And this is often the case with a managerial fire, isn't it? But the things that seem to be ailing the Phillies are very much about a product of roster construction is almost even too active a way of describing it because they're just roster maintenance, roster stagnation. They're getting old, Ben. You know, like there's. There's no, there's no two ways around it. Their age, it is too strong for men who won't be eligible for Social Security for quite a while. But like they're. They're an aging team and some of their infusions of youth have. Have gone well and others have been absent. And you know, I. That there were things that the fan base, for instance, was hoping would happen over the off season. And really many of their biggest moves just concerned sort of locking in that age for longer.
- [09:36]
Ben Lindbergh
Kyle Schwaber, come on back. Stick around. Yeah.
- [09:39]
Meg Riley
And look, I think resigning Kyle schwaber, defensible, resigning J.T. rolmut over three years, perhaps a sign of crashing out. So. And you know, I think Lizardo will. Will right the ship. I know there's a piece of BP suggesting that some of what might be ailing him is pitch tipping. And I know there's been issues with that for him in the past. And so we'll, you know, we'll see. But I don't think that their current predicament is really, really Rob's fault. I always want to call him Rob. Thomas.
- [10:10]
Ben Lindbergh
Thomas. Right.
- [10:11]
Meg Riley
And that's wrong. That's not his name. You know, it's. That's a different guy's name. It's not. So I do think it's surprising in that respect. But like, you know, they're 10 and 19, so that's bad.
- [10:27]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. And not just that, but they have the worst run differential in the majors by a lot. Even after the seven nothing win.
- [10:35]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [10:36]
Ben Lindbergh
Tuesday, they are 47 runs underwater there. It's really. Yeah. I mean, it's so bad. More than 20 runs worse than any other team.
- [10:46]
Meg Riley
You know, it's not even May yet. I know it's about to be, but it, it isn' just yet, so. Boy. But, but again, I. I still think the most surprising thing of it is that Mendoza's still there. And I'm not trying to cost people their jobs. It does seem like the Phillies handled this better than the Red Sox for all the reasons you laid out. And you know, the funny thing about being a manager, as we have noted before, we noted this with Alex, I'm sure we'll have unfortunately occasion to remark upon it again. Sometimes part of your job is getting fired. And the fact that it was, I think, bolsters the idea that like, look, sometimes you got to make a move. But also, this isn't indicative of something. I don't know, somehow it just being him actually makes it seem like it's less his fault. Right. Like that the things that are ailing
- [11:38]
Ben Lindbergh
the team, it's not a pervasive problem. It's like some deep rooted. Right. Yeah.
- [11:43]
Meg Riley
And I'm sure that, you know, if you were to ask a Phillies fan, they could point to moments where they weren't pleased with like some of his strategic decision making or like the bullpen management has been weird or whatever. Like, I. And I'm not saying that because I'm thinking of anything in particular, but it's just, you know, when you watch the team every day, you, you go, well, what about that time, though? What about that time that he did that thing? And you're like, well, yeah, I bet that one thing probably didn't cost him his job. But maybe there's more of an issue here that I'm appreciating. But I, I think that you just gotta. Sometimes you gotta do a little bit shake up. They never fire themselves. You know, the first GM who fires himself, that guy's a hero. And I'm not saying Jim Browski should lose his job either, necessarily, but it's just like somebody should be like, no, I think it's me, actually. You know, and I've decided to go spend more time with my family and contemplate the question.
- [12:31]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, so during Thompson's tenure, he took over, I think June 3, 2022, and everything comes full circle because he took over for Joe Girardi. And that was a team that was struggling and needed some sort of kick in the pants jumpstart. And he delivered it, or at least it happened under him. And so from that first game to his last, even with the slow start this season, the Phillies had the third most wins in the majors behind the Dodgers and the Braves. It was quite successful. I think he had the highest winning percentage of any Phillies manager ever, minimum 300 games. And so it's strange in that sense because nothing really changed about the roster. And maybe that's part of the problem,
- [13:14]
Meg Riley
but also his problem.
- [13:16]
Ben Lindbergh
It's not his problem, probably. And sure, of course, maybe sometimes a message stops resonating and you need a new voice, even if it's sort of the same group of guys. But there was no suggestion really that he had lost the clubhouse or anything, that there was any discord, like just the opposite, in fact. I mean, we've talked plenty about Philly's weirdness when it comes to the clubhouse and off the field behavior, but that's. I don't think we could pin that on top. Said there was no indication. Okay. Of course there was last year, the Castellanos incident and everything, but I don't know that anyone really blamed Thompson for that. It's just. It's a difficult situation when you have a veteran guy who's just not playing well and wants to be playing, and that's no longer helping your team. Some guys accept that more gracefully than others. And so there didn't even seem to be, I guess that would be the closest equivalent to the Devers situation in Boston, but it was not the same wattage, that kind of news and how long it lasted and the implications for the franchise. And everyone seems to like Thompson and just feels bad that he kind of had to take the fall here. And in Boston's case, at least you could see, well, maybe there's been a failure to develop some younger guys and maybe Korra hasn't put them in the best situation. And it is a lot of roster turnover, at least. And also, I guess he didn't have quite as strong a track record. Obviously, you go back to 2018 and that was an immensely successful season, but that was also a long time ago, and there have been ups and downs since then, not to mention a suspension and a science dealing scandal and everything else. Whereas with the Phillies, it's not really like you have a new generation. So we need a new voice. Okay, sure, there are a couple guys they're trying to work in and Justin Crawford and. And Andrew Painter and there will be more to come, but it wasn't really the same sort of situation where you could at least make a case, regardless of how they handled it. That change was needed or that the lack of change was an issue, if not the issue. It's hard to say that here because you've basically brought back the same group of guys. And that's not on Thompson. And it's not even all of the old guys who have been the problem necessarily. It's not like Kyle Schwarber hasn't hit. He has. So I don't know. It's like, if the Phillies get better, as they already have in Game one without Thompson, it will be hard for me to conclude that it was because they jettisoned Thompson and brought in another veteran manager, Don Mattingly, who does not have a remarkable managerial record. I mean, he was hired as the bench coach after. I mean, he said he had no real ambition to be a manager again. He had been with the Blue Jays, and obviously, obviously, his son Preston is the GM of the team. So it's. It's not exactly like a Nepo daddy situation. I don't know how to even describe it, but I'm sure that Mattingly was hired on his merits, but it's not as if he has been some whiz as a manager, really. And so why would you expect that this team will respond to Mattingly more than it did to Thompson? It just kind of. It shows you that there's an expiration date for any manager, and you can be brought in to take over the underperforming team, team, and everything goes amazingly and, wow, you are the miracle worker. And then just four years later, having made the playoffs every year between, you know, and still, all it takes is a slow start. 9 and 19 or whatever it was when he was fired, and you're out of there. And, you know, he seems to have taken it gracefully, and he understands how this works, but it is sort of silly, right? Like, if they. If they get better, I doubt it will be because of this. It'll be because they've still got the bones of a pretty good team. Some of those bones are. Are hidden in closets because they've been removed from people's bodies. And also some of those bones are getting on in years. But, you know, some of the luck will be better, as it maybe was for Lizardo already. And then Zach Wheeler will come back and things will. I don't know if they'll work out because the. The playoff odds have decreased precipitously. As we discussed last time, as we noted, the Red Sox weren't even in the worst, really. The Mets and the Phillies, the two teams at the bottom of the NL east, they are off to worse starts and they have seen their expectations crater more so than the Red Sox have. But, yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's. It's kind of the standard managerial dismissal. And maybe also it's even more inexplicable except that we just understand how these things work.
- [18:01]
Meg Riley
Well, and Wheeler is back, right? He's made one start back. But I think you're right. Like, I don't imagine there's going to be a dramatic difference between the, the approach of Mattingly and. And I think that they'll probably. Mattingly seems well regarded in that clubhouse. He's not new. I think they'll respond to him just fine because I think they were happy to have their old manager around and they're not all that different from. From each other. We do need a term to refer to. It does feel dismissive to call him a Nepo Daddy because. And it also feels weird to use the word daddy in relation to Don Mattingly. But, yeah, like, you know, Preston did precede him in the organization. Isn't that funny? I think it will go fine, or at least it will go as fine as it would have given the circumstances prior to his firing. And also, if I'm Girls Mundo's, I'm very nervous.
- [18:57]
Ben Lindbergh
Yes. I don't. I don't think things do come in threes any more than they come in any other number. But I would be wary if I were. Were. If I were Mendoza, if I'm him.
- [19:08]
Meg Riley
This feels so almost morbid to talk about, but it's like, hey, guys, do it. Do it soon because we got an LA trip coming up. So if you're gonna. Don't make me fly across the country for a 3 Series West coast, you know, southwest road trip to fire me. Like, do it if you're gonna, you
- [19:27]
Ben Lindbergh
know, Wheeler's return, even if he's not vintage Wheeler, that should help. And then getting Duran back and real Muto and.
- [19:34]
Meg Riley
Right.
- [19:35]
Ben Lindbergh
Maybe Bowman stop, start to hit and things will look a little bit better. So perhaps it's a panic move, perhaps it's something that you do kind of foreshow, but it has always ever been thus. And one year you're the savior, and then four years later you're the fall guy. And you didn't necessarily do anything different in one year or the other. It's just, it's circumstances. Not to say that managers have no impact whatsoever, but other factors probably do dwarf that impact, so. And Alex Cora could have been the Phillies manager.
- [20:11]
Meg Riley
Reportedly. I mean, yeah.
- [20:13]
Ben Lindbergh
Dabrowski was talking to Cora before he officially fired Thompson. Which is why, perhaps, it was reported with some confidence by Ken Rosenthal, as we noted in our conversation with Alex Beer last time, that Rosenthal had already reported that Cora was a candidate to take over for the Phillies. And. And he turned Dombrowski down, at least for now. Though I think Rosenthal subsequently said he might get another chance at this, or if he wants the job later, maybe he could still have it. So maybe Mattingly's keeping the seat warm. And there have been managers who have managed multiple teams in a single season, but that would have been quite a turnaround to just go from being fired by the Red Sox to taking over the Phillies, what, one day later. But Cora has opted not to do that, at least for now. Obviously, he and Dombrowski have history with, with Boston, but you can understand why Timbrowski might want him. I guess you can also understand why he might not want to walk into that situation. For one thing, he's being paid to not work, right? And probably he wants to be a big league manager again and so strike while the iron is hot. You can't take it for granted there are only so many of those jobs. But also, it seems like he'll probably be in demand despite some blemishes on his record. And maybe he doesn't want to walk in in a mid season situation. Maybe this is a vote of no confidence in the Phillies by Alex Cora. And you know, he said he just wants to spend time with his family and with his kids and kick back and relax for a while and, and be paid to not work. I mean, that sounds pretty sweet, but
- [21:42]
Meg Riley
yeah, I wouldn't object to that.
- [21:43]
Ben Lindbergh
Maybe it just wasn't an ideal situation to walk into. On the one hand, it is because you could kind of forecast, well, they'll be better just because they're a better team than this and then you'll get credit for that turnaround. But, but maybe if he thinks, well, this is an aging roster, it's on the downslope. If they aren't able to execute a rebuild on the fly here, if this goes the way of other Dombrowski teams where they just get old and eventually he's not able to have the youth movement and he's trying, he's holding onto some prospects, he's working them in. So maybe there won't be as long a lull between competitive Phillies teams. But if he's thinking it's an old roster, who knows how long Dombrowski will be around. I mean, he's in his 70s. He's been in this organization for a while, and if things go south, then maybe he won't be long for the Phillies either. And then Cora would be in another situation maybe where he was brought in by the last guy to have the job, as he was in Boston. So you could see maybe he's holding out for a more auspicious situation, at least for now.
- [22:47]
Meg Riley
I wonder how many books I would be able to read if I were being paid not to work.
- [22:52]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, you'd probably be tearing through those things.
- [22:54]
Meg Riley
I bet I'd be getting through a lot more than I am now. But yeah, I mean, it'll be interesting to see how long he. He persists. But I, I don't think that he, the Kora suffers any necessarily from waiting. These moves were made so early. But as we know, just based on how teams tend to, to move on for managers, though, they'll almost certainly not be the, the, the last managerial firings. Like, and this isn't me, like, being mean to Carlos Mendoza again. They just won't be like, we, we see a couple of these every year and being available in the event that one of those jobs that he, for whatever reason might find more desirable, assuming that's part of his calculus, which I guess we don't know, then it's like, oh, well, he's right here. You know, he's ready to go. He can, he can slot on in, so get a little time off in before you. You get going. I don't think that the Phillies are like a completely undes team to work for. I mean, like, generally they're not in
- [23:56]
Ben Lindbergh
terms of managing who seems eager to invest in the roster.
- [24:00]
Meg Riley
Yeah, yeah, but I, I do think that if we're trying to forecast out, say, the next 10 years of that franchise, like the age thing is going to catch up to them at some point. It seems like it's catching up to them now, but I think it's going to be a problem, like Capital P problem for them at some point here. And I don't think that they have enough young guys to immediately bounce back into contention. There might be a period where they actually have to do something that resembles like a, a real rebuild. And maybe you don't want to be around for that, but, you know, like, Aiden Miller will get better at some point, so. It always makes me nervous when really young guys have back issues. Though I will say that is one of the ones where without any information, I just, just feel, it makes me feel nervous, Ben, you know, because like, hey, you're only 21. We shouldn't have anything in common, you know.
- [24:54]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, yeah. It has been an across the board failure though. They have just failed to launch in every respect. Through Thompson's last game, their position players were 29th in WAR, better than only the Mets. They were 29th in WRC plus, so hitting only. They were dead last in defensive runs saved and 20th I think in fielding run value, the statcast metric. Not that defensive struggles is entirely a new thing for the Phillies. And then 12th in pitching war, which is not dire obviously, but pitching has been their strength in recent years and they've had some departures and some injuries and some struggles and bad luck and everything, but really nothing was working. And it wasn't just the old guys and it wasn't just the young guys or young guy, but really something I suppose had to be done, if only for face saving purposes. And they'll play better. Will they play better enough to overcome this situation they find themselves in? I don't know. Because even, even after that win, the playoff odds are down to 36.6%. So the, the odds at this point are against them. Okay, so a couple notes before Benetti. 1. Shohei Otani is playing well. I know that's not news to everyone. Breaking news here on the podcast, at least some things. The Mets may be struggling, the Red Sox, the Phillies. Shohei Ohtani, though, he always delivers. I was interested to see the pitching and batting breakdown because I was, you know, I've had in my mind my bold preseason prediction, which was that Shohei Ohtani would win the Cy Young but not the mvp, which would require a confluence of circumstances. That is quite unlikely. And I wasn't really rooting for this to happen because it would probably mean that he would have to be hurt and, or bad as a hitter or something.
- [26:45]
Meg Riley
Right?
- [26:45]
Ben Lindbergh
But I guess directionally it has turned out that way. I mean, he has been a better pitcher, more valuable pitcher than he has been a hitter. And he is actually leading the National League in fangraph's war. Pitching wise, that is. He's tied for all intents and purposes with his teammate Tyler glasnau and Nolan McLean, but you go out to more than the first decibel spot and he is the National League leader in pitching war. And so I was wondering, because his hitting has been good but not up to his peak standards and he's missed a couple games. So I was wondering, well, if the season ended today, would he fulfill these conditions, might he be the leading Cy Young award contender and not the leading MVP contender But the answer is no, probably not. If the season ended today, which would be quite premature and disappointing, I think he would still be your clear MVP leader because he is leading not just the National League but the major leagues In WAR now he has taken the lead from Jordan Alvarez and so even though it's skewed toward pitching, 1.3 pitching, WAR, 0.9 batting, DHing WAR, that's 2.2. That paces the whole league. But yeah, it's very hard for him to be good as a pitcher and not good enough as a hitter to not be the most valuable player in baseball.
- [28:11]
Meg Riley
Yeah, it's really something. How are you feeling about their giving him off days from hitting when he's pitching?
- [28:19]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, in each case there has been some special circumstance. So the first game he had been hit by a pitch and so maybe there was some shoulder soreness and so they were giving him a day. And then the most recent outing I think they had moved him up to start a bit and so usually it's a six man rotation and this was just one less day between starts than usual and so they didn't want to overtax him. So I worry just because I don't want any backsliding on his two way performance. But I think they still want him in the lineup even though of course they have more good hitters than they have lineup spots. Now with Dalton rushing off to as good a start as he is and so maybe when he is not dhing there is possibly a little less of a drop off to the next best candidate and just to keep him fresh and not overtax him and work some other guys into the lineup, maybe that'll be a bit more common than it has been for the past few years. But I think they're still pretty committed to having Shohei Ohtani hit so not too worried about it at this stage.
- [29:19]
Meg Riley
Okay, good. I'm glad I don't have to talk you down.
- [29:21]
Ben Lindbergh
Run. Yeah. I am very worried about Mason Miller though because he allowed runs. Runs, plural, Mick. I know, Yeah, I mean the 0er is gone. He allowed multiple runs in one outing and yes there was a controversial call on a ball on the infield which is it's fair. Foul is not reviewable on the infield. So there was a, a call that yeah, could have gone either way but I guess you take what the baseball gods give you when you're facing Mason Miller. But over his last three outings there's been no diminishment in stuff or velocity as far as I can tell. But in his past three outings, he has faced a combined 12 batters and he has struck out one of them.
- [30:07]
Meg Riley
What?
- [30:08]
Jason Benetti
One?
- [30:09]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, maybe. Maybe it's over. Maybe he actually is washed. Maybe by talking to Bradledge, his spiritual successor, we jinxed him somehow. But yeah, I mean, as we talked to Brad about. Even if you have the incomparable stuff of Mason Miller, at some point, things will go a little less well for you if you have a zero ERA and he had struck out 27 of the first 38 hitters he had faced. So in that context, it's almost notable that he did have back to back outings without a single strikeout. And then he had just one strikeout when facing six batters in the game when he allowed three hits and gave up a couple runs. Anyway, Mason Miller will be just fine. But the point is, maybe he will not be perfect. Though his seasonal FIP is still in negative territory, so not too shabby.
- [30:59]
Meg Riley
No. Yeah, I think, I think he's gonna be okay. Oh, crochet's going on the aisle. That's.
- [31:05]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. And also, Jose Soriano had a shaky start. Not a disaster start, but both Niller and Soriano looked a little human lately. And they are human. Soriano maybe more so than Miller even. But yeah.
- [31:21]
Meg Riley
Wow.
- [31:22]
Ben Lindbergh
I know.
- [31:23]
Meg Riley
Being so rude to him. My goodness.
- [31:26]
Ben Lindbergh
He's good. He's good. I'm just. He's maybe not quite that good. Yeah. On the other end of things, Max Scherzer, I'm sad to say, he seems to be circling the drain.
- [31:36]
Jason Benetti
Yeah.
- [31:37]
Ben Lindbergh
Baseball wise. And I guess that's been a protracted process because he has not been bothered, healthy and good for an extended stretch in quite some time. But this year, yet again, he has been neither. And there was a nice heartwarming story. I mean, he was with the Blue Jays and he's starting in the World Series and then his daughter wrote a cute note about bringing him back and he came back. And I'm always happy to see a player play as long as they can convince someone to let them. But it has reached the point where his body is betraying him so routinely that I don't know, I don't know that there's a lot of baseball life left in Xerzer or playing life at least. Who knows, maybe he should get started on his rise to take over the MLBPA or something. You know, whatever he does in his post playing life, he is a great baseball thinker. But he has started five games for the Blue Jays this year and has not really regularly made it through three innings. I mean, he's 18⅔ innings total and he just keeps breaking down and, and he's one strikeout short of 3,500 for his career. So you'd like to see him get that. I guess for sentimental reasons. And it's not as if the Blue Jays couldn't use a healthy and effective Max Scherzer. I'm just not sure that that guy's going to be back.
- [32:59]
Meg Riley
Yeah, well. And you know, now Savage is back, so they have some, they have a little more flex. I, it's always a bummer when it feels like a guy's going to go out on sort of a sour note. And I worry that that's where we are with him. Him. And that isn't to say that he can't be valuable to them in sort of a, here's another coach in the dugout capacity. But that's different than them having like a reliable starter every, you know, five or six days. So I don't know. I don't know that there's a, a lot there to.
- [33:30]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, he's had some long standing, kind of chronic physical issues, but now it's, it's multiple things at the same time. It's tendonitis in his forearm, it's inflammation in his ankle. So when it rains, it pours. When you're 41, almost 42, it pours perhaps. So we'll see. I hope that there is another wind or a last gasp or something and he kind of got that last year in the playoffs and we got to see good Max again and yeah, I think probably ending on a high note. It's overrated. I, I'm all for make them tear the uniform off your back and play as long as you're enjoying it and as long as someone will give you a gig. And I don't think it's, it tarnishes anything. You know, it's like Max Scherzer could kind of struggle along for however many more seasons and it wouldn't change anything about how great he was or his legacy or his getting to Cooperstown on the first ballot or any of that stuff. So I think that whole idea of like, you got to know when it's time to walk away, I think it's kind of overblown in terms of long term legacy. But sometimes it can be a bit tough to watch in the moment. So yeah, I hope he's still enjoying something about this. Although we know how competitive he is and how dissatisfied he is with things. Don't go well. But I'm sure that as soon as he's not enjoying it, he will stop doing it because he has no need to.
- [34:48]
Meg Riley
Yeah, I think that that's right. And I will be fascinated to learn how he navigates that decision. Like, when does it feel like it's time for him? Because, you know, I don't know Max Scherzer and I, I don't want to speculate as to his psychology more than what he's revealed about himself as a player over the years, but I, I can imagine there being two wolves within Max Scherzer, one of which is.
- [35:13]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, two eye colors too.
- [35:15]
Meg Riley
Right. I'm not ready. I'm not ready to give this up. I, I'm so committed and passionate and, and intense almost to a fault or to a fault, depending on your perspective on his on field and on mound demeanor. But also he is very exacting and I imagine part of why he has been able to sustain the level of intensity he's because he has higher standards probably even for himself than others do. And on some level, I'm sure. Well, it's a pretty on the surface level at the moment, but is aware that he is not playing to that standard. How those two forces sort of wrestle with each other is going to be interesting. And I wonder how much and how candidly he'll talk about it when the time comes because is. It's a very personal psychodrama that gets played out publicly. And so how much he decides to talk about that I think will be interesting as well.
- [36:17]
Ben Lindbergh
And on the other end of the circle of major league life, Travis Bazzana has arrived and has made his major league debut. And yeah, yet more AL Central news in this AL Central centric episode. And he has ridden in to take over second base for the Guardians and he had a kind of quintessentially bizarnic game, I guess in his debut. He took a couple of walks, one of which was an intentional walk. And he became, I believe, the 52nd batter, according to Stat Head, to draw an intentional walk in his major league debut, the first since Wyatt Langford in 2024. And there have been a lot of expectations for Bazzano since He was the first overall draft pick in 2024. And he has been a ballyhooed prospect ever since. And you know, there have been. Sounds like an Australian slang word, but yeah, much ballyhooed. And there have been some knocks on him and, and fan graphs, I guess, was a little lower on him than some sources. I think he was in the 50s on the top 100 at fan graphs this spring and generally in the 20s at some other outlets. And I guess one of the concerns with him was not will the walks evaporate? But will the walks be enough? Can he continue to draw them at the big league level? Does he have the pop to force pitchers to respect him? And you know, he had hit well at AAA in his second go round at that level to start the season. And I guess he's shown enough oomph to allay some of those concerns perhaps, or you tell me, but you know, he's capable of putting a charge into the ball. I was, I was looking at prospect savant and he has, I guess this is AAA. He had a 74th percentile exit velocity, 80th percentile max exit velocity. He had peaked at 110.3 miles per hour. He was at 79th percentile in barrel rate. And this is all relative to other AAA guys obviously. But yeah, it's not as if he is up there to take a walk and that he's just going to get the bat knocked out of his hands. But, but will he be enough of a offensive powerhouse to live up to the first overall pick? I guess the jury's still somewhat out on that.
- [38:40]
Meg Riley
Yeah, I think that that is right. I also will say the thing that I feel compelled to say every time we were talking about first overall picks in baseball, which is that everybody relax because that isn't to say that he wasn't a highly regarded guy coming out of college, that he wasn't considered top draft prospect. But like, especially since we just had the NFL draft, first overall pick in baseball can mean a lot of different things. Right? So I just think that's a useful thing to keep in mind.
- [39:12]
Ben Lindbergh
I think it's still, in most years it's still the consensus top talent, but there are exceptions, more so than there are in other sports where maybe a team is drafting someone with an underslot bonus or saying we'll save money for later in the draft. Although I guess sometimes like Carlos Correa was maybe the most prominent an example of that trend and then he turned out to be the best player in that draft class anyway. But yeah, he did fall to six or something for money reasons.
- [39:39]
Meg Riley
And to be clear, like Travis Bazan assigned for almost $9 million. So like, I'm not, I just, I. It's always a good, it's always good to just remember even if in this particular circumstance it, it is an indicative what a class that has ended up being. My God, 20, 24. He really knew. You really knew what was up. So. So we'll just see. Like, he. You know, you're right to say that we were lower on him relative to the rest of the industry, but he was a top 100 guy for us and, you know, someone who the guys viewed as an everyday player, even if they didn't think that he was likely to sort of blossom into an eventual star. I am just happy to have another Aussie in the majors because the odds of me having opportunity and occasions talk about Travis Bazana are higher than they are about Curtis Mead. And I need to. I need to share my accent with the world because it's that good.
- [40:37]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. Well, we'll hear some accent attempts from Benetti in a short while here. I saw the Devil Wears Prada, too, this week, and I went to.
- [40:48]
Meg Riley
How's that?
- [40:48]
Ben Lindbergh
It's good, actually.
- [40:49]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [40:50]
Ben Lindbergh
It's actually better than you would expect it to be.
- [40:52]
Meg Riley
I'm sorry. I know that you're about to make a point that's relevant to baseball, and I want to hear it. I really do. But here is my number one question about the Devil Wears product. How does it look?
- [41:02]
Jason Benetti
Oh.
- [41:03]
Meg Riley
Does it look expensive? Do you understand the question I'm trying to.
- [41:06]
Jason Benetti
Yeah.
- [41:07]
Meg Riley
Or does it look like something that would be on Netflix?
- [41:09]
Ben Lindbergh
No, I don't think it looked noticeably cheap. I don't think they. They skimped on it. No, it's. It's all about downsizing in media and fashion and everything else, but I don't think that also applies to the film. So it's. Yeah.
- [41:22]
Meg Riley
Thank you.
- [41:23]
Ben Lindbergh
Unreasonably good, I think. Not purely a retread. I watched the first one to refresh my memory, and, you know, the second one I think holds up next to it, so it's. It's worthwhile, but. Yeah, I brought that up.
- [41:37]
Meg Riley
No, I'm just so glad to hear it. And it does change my calculus a bit because I had thought, well, this is a movie I will see on the back of an airplane seat. You know, like, it had that sort of feeling. Yeah.
- [41:49]
Ben Lindbergh
It's saying you have to. To see it in theaters.
- [41:51]
Meg Riley
It's not going to see it in theaters.
- [41:53]
Ben Lindbergh
Special effects extravaganza or something. Please.
- [41:56]
Meg Riley
I. I haven't even managed to get to project El Mary yet. And that one, I understand, I should see in theaters anyway. What were you saying about baseball?
- [42:03]
Ben Lindbergh
That in imax? Yeah. I mean, barely about baseball. But Patrick Brammell is in it. He's an Australian actor who is in everything In Australia. But I am.
- [42:13]
Meg Riley
I recognize this man.
- [42:14]
Ben Lindbergh
I think he probably will because he's been in a lot of stuff over here too. He was in Evil, which is a show that I quite liked. And he was also in an Australian series called Colin from accounts that streamed over here.
- [42:26]
Meg Riley
Oh, I know this man.
- [42:28]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, he's good. And I think American audiences are discovering him now. He's the new. He's the new love interest for Andy, played by Anne Hathaway. Anyway, there's a throwaway line, just a joke in the movie where he goes to some sort of reception and he glimpses. Well, he says that he glimpses from afar, although he's not in the movie, Hugh Jackman. And he's just like, oh, is that Hugh Jackman over there? And Anne Hathaway's character says, yes. And then he's like, I better go say hi. I don't know him. I've never talked to him. But when Australians meet somewhere other than Australia, it's considered bad form not to say hello. So basically, wherever you are in the world, an Australian has to greet another Australian if they're not in Australia. This is maybe not uniquely or solely an Australian phenomenon, but you know, when you run into someone overseas, you're both on a trip, and if you saw that person at home, you wouldn't really even cross the street to say hello. Maybe. But then you see them in some unlikely context. It's like, oh, a familiar face. We should bond over this. So anyway, that reminded me of that. I now wonder, since you were talking about having another Aussie in the majors or Ozzy.
- [43:39]
Meg Riley
Oh, yeah.
- [43:40]
Ben Lindbergh
Whether that is the case, whether you were about to talk about Ryan Rowland Smith now, you know, maybe he and. And Bassana will have to say hello to each other or it will be some sort of international or national in Australia incident.
- [43:54]
Meg Riley
Yeah. What was the Hugh Jackman movie where they were singers? That doesn't narrow it down. The recent one where they were singers.
- [44:03]
Ben Lindbergh
So not the movie where he's a shepherd. Yes, right.
- [44:07]
Meg Riley
Yeah. With. Okay, so when you see that movie over. I saw it on the back of someone else's screen. I did not watch this movie. And I looked away just long enough. Spoilers for song sung blue. I was like, wait, how did she lose her foot? I did not. I was very confused for a good hour. And then I was like, I'm not gonna watch it myself. I'm just gonna hope that they show us at some point in the movie,
- [44:30]
Ben Lindbergh
like a flashback, as you were just craving your neck to watch it on someone else's tiny screen.
- [44:36]
Meg Riley
Why is he covered in blood? That's so crazy.
- [44:38]
Ben Lindbergh
It's not exactly the way that filmmakers intended. Christopher Nolan would have a conniption if he knew that you were watching his movies that way.
- [44:45]
Meg Riley
But sometimes I have standards about which ones I will watch on planes. I, you know, and I think the people whose movies I like to watch on planes would be like, yeah, we understand that. It is one of my, my more conservative beliefs that people wild out about the movies they watch on planes and everyone should like chill with the, the stuff that they watch on planes. People put all kinds of stuff in just the, in the aisle seat, you know, there are children walking by to go to the bathroom and they are seeing all kinds of stuff. And I think people should chill with that. My God.
- [45:18]
Ben Lindbergh
Anyway, the dialogue in Nolan movies is unintelligible even if you are watching it with sound. So it doesn't make that much difference. It you can see it. Well, you understand it. That's another question.
- [45:29]
Meg Riley
I don't think he understood it.
- [45:31]
Ben Lindbergh
Anyway, we will see how Travis P. Does and obviously with with Gabriel Arias going down, not that he was exactly having that position unlock to begin with, but Brian Rocchio had to move from second to shortstop and they've had a decently productive middle infield anyway. But this will help I guess because Juan Brito was perhaps not getting it done done. So we will see how banana fares. And the last thing I will mention here. Last time we talked about scoring in Mexico in major league games played in Mexico, particularly in Mexico City at a super high altitude, but also elsewhere and how the scoring has just been off the charts there. Even compared to cores it's higher scoring. And so what does that say about the viability of Major League Baseball if MLP were to expand and to that market. Of course there has been high level professional baseball in Mexico for quite a long time. So they've managed to make it work somehow. And we got a couple questions about that from Patreon supporters. One from Drew who said I am a longtime player of out of the park baseball and the ball is often out of the park in Mexico City and almost always add a Mexico City team because I think playing on the moon is fun but I understand the concern about putting a team there. This question is rooted in my own engineering climate ignorance. Would a domed stadium have the same issues that elevation poses? Or could you pressurize the hell out of the dome Though at that point I guess you are risking giving everyone in the stadium altitude sickness which would not be ideal. I do believe it would have to be pressurized, which is something that the Rockies talked about way back when. I don't know if it's more feasible or cost effective now. And Drew says, as for not solving cores, I know MLB and lmb, the Mexican League are different animals and I'm as ignorant of LMB history as I am engineering. But if the Rockies lack of success is proof that Coors is hard to solve for, does the success of the Diablos Rojos not offer hope that altitude can be solved there? And we got another question in that same vein from another Patreon supporter, Sydney, who said there's been a lot of talk about the Coors hangover effect. But relevant to your discussion of baseball in Mexico City, is there any research about a halo hangover effect effect in the Mexican League that's a a reference to the park they play in? Do the Diablos Roos have road splits that are lower than expected accounting for park effects? So I wanted to know about this because for those who don't know, the Diablo Rojos are the most storied franchise in that league. I hesitate to people always reach for with the Diablos Roos or the Omuri Giants. They're the Yankees of the Mexican League or the Yankees of NPP be their their own team. But maybe that makes it more understandable to MLB only fans. Or it did back when the Yankees were winning championships, which the Diablo Rojos have done in back to back years. So they are the reigning champions of the Mexican League, so this doesn't seem to have held them back historically speaking. And I wrote to Octavio Hernandez who actually works for the Diablos Rojos and has been someone I've consulted before and talked to on the podcast and asked about his insights for article and does stat stuff and and works in the front office for the Diablos Rojos. And I asked about this and he wrote back to me and explained and said the hangover effect of Estadio Alfredo Harp Helu is a difficult variable to quantify, mainly because altitude is not an isolated condition in the Mexican League. And this is actually what I was going to say or said to Sidney before I heard back from Octavio. Octavio says 12 of the 20 stadiums in the league sit at or above Coors Field elevation. So going on the road does not necessarily mean escaping altitude, right? That makes it challenging to isolate a single number that captures performance loss when leaving Mexico City. So even though it's even higher than Denver, the relative altitude differential compared to a lot of the competitors in the league, I guess, is not quite as stark. So that might be part of it. But Octavio elaborates. Rates. Instead of a clean metric, we rely on identifying components of the effect to understand the bigger picture. First, altitude directly impacts recovery capacity. So using whoop data, that's those wearable bands we've observed. Starters who, after a normal outing and eight to nine hours of sleep, register recovery scores as low as 8%. Physiologically, that's comparable to someone who slept only a few hours after significant fatigue or stress. So that's how I'm operating, presumably at all times. Second, it affects command through changes in pitch movement. At altitude. Reduced air density diminishes the magnus effect, leading to less induced vertical break and horizontal break. Pitchers with strong braking stuff lose movement, but often gain temporary precision because the ball behaves more predictably. The issue appears when they leave altitude. Movement returns, but command lags behind. You don't always see this in aggregate numbers because stuff improves and whiff rates can increase at lower elevations. But execution consistency takes time to recalibrate. For hitters, the effect is largely perceptual. At altitude, they operate with an advantage. Less pitch movement and more carry on contact. This reinforces timing and visual expectations. However, when transitioning to lower elevations like Merida, the brain initially misprojects pitch movement, Especially on fastballs with normal ride and run. So this is all maybe familiar to anyone who has heard about the Coors hangover effect. All of this applies, and Octavio continues. Hitting is fundamentally a predictive process. The hitter commits based on an internal model of ball trajectory, not continuous visual tracking through the entire flight. When that model is calibrated to altitude conditions, it needs to be retrained quickly. The most effective adjustment we've found. So how do they solve this problem? Is to aggressively recondition perception in the cage, Specifically by facing pitches with greater induced movement and carry to accelerate recalibration. We have special balls that do that. So that's interesting. I know that the. The Rockies have experimented with things like that, taking extra bp and you have your traject machines and everything.
- [51:37]
Meg Riley
Can you, like, traject your way out of the Coors field hangover?
- [51:40]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. I mean, not yet, seemingly, but in theory, yeah. So maybe you. You overcompensate, you dial it up to adjust to this.
- [51:48]
Meg Riley
Right.
- [51:49]
Ben Lindbergh
It's almost like, I guess, wearing a donut on your bat so that the bat is heavier before you swing the regular. Except that, from what I've seen, doesn't actually help and if anything, just makes you more tired. But maybe it makes you feel better, and maybe feeling better, there's an effect to that. And so Octavio concludes that's why rather than chasing a single hangover number, we treat altitude as a multivariable adaptation problem, recovery, command and perception all interacting at once. And so I thanked him and I said, well, something must be working for you guys, because Diablos Roos have a better track record, historically speaking, than the Rockies. And he actually said, for us, it has been a blessing in disguise. LMB conditions are unique, and we have been ahead of the curve, selecting pitchers and building teams that are better suited to endure these conditions. For me, pitching in altitude is a lot like the you don't have to outrun the bear story, you just have to outrun the other pitching staff. So that's interesting. So he's actually looking at this as an advantage, which is something that people have said about Cors. Hey, if we could crack this, maybe it would actually help us instead of hinder us though, right? That's his position. And then I said, well, I'd love to know which players and teams are better suited to those conditions, but that's probably proprietary. You probably don't want to tell me that. And then he said, well, for you guys and your podcast community, I have no secrets, so I will give you this. Yes. So here's a little intel from Octavio. We love slutters. So that's the hybrid of the slider and the cutter. They love slutters.
- [53:22]
Meg Riley
They've been getting a bad rap. Everyone respects the slaughter.
- [53:25]
Ben Lindbergh
We avoid IVB guys, so that's induced vertical, vertical break guys. We can select guys with control issues if the breaking ball is elite. We like plus sinkers, and we don't like two pitch pitchers and pitchers that rely on seam shifted wake. And for hitters, we love contact and pulling the ball in the air. Strikeouts are no bueno. So he says, no rocket science here, just logic and a lot of money to look for targets with this profile. And now that money has been squandered because Octavio has just divulged all of his secrets to the effectively wild community. As I said to him, Paul D. Podesta should consult him.
- [54:04]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [54:05]
Ben Lindbergh
And he said. Said he's willing if Paul calls. But yeah, if I were the Rockies, I'm sure they've looked at everything. I would definitely dial up the Diablos Rojos and say, hey, how are you guys making this work? Yeah.
- [54:15]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [54:16]
Ben Lindbergh
And I guess it's a little different because, like, course has that huge outfield, and so maybe contact is is even more advantageous there because you put the ball in the air, it's going to go, but also it's going to fall. You're going to have high babip. So it'll vary a bit, but you would think that there would be some principles that would apply in both contexts, for sure.
- [54:34]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [54:34]
Ben Lindbergh
Okay. So there's hope, Rockies fans. Maybe this problem can be solved or has been solved elsewhere.
- [54:41]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [54:41]
Ben Lindbergh
All right. Let us take a quick break, and we will be back with our friend and yours, Jason Benetti of the Tigers. And now NBC Sports.
- [54:51]
Jason Benetti
Well, today and tonight mark the full return of baseball to the NBC network for the first time since the 2000, 2000 ALCS. But NBC's history with our national pastime runs much deeper than that, beginning with the first televised baseball game called by red Barber in 1939, the first World Series on TV in 1947, and a relationship with the game for virtually the entire second half of the 20th century. And that legacy includes some of the game's greatest voices. Red Barber, who I mentioned a moment to go. And Mel Allen, Curt Gowdy, Joe Garagiola, Tony Kubec, the Dodgers own Vin Scully, Bob Ucher and more. And now, as a new generation of baseball on NBC begins, we pass the baton, or in this case, the mic, to a guy who's already distinguished himself as the TV voice of the White Sox. And now the Tigers, Jason Benetti. Take it, Jason, but no pressure.
- [55:48]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, we're joined now by a pal who's not just the TV voice of the Tigers, but also the new national lead voice of base on NBC and Peacock, where this coming Sunday, he'll be the TV voice of the Tigers, who are playing the Rangers on Sunday night Baseball. Jason Benetti, welcome back and congrats on the new gig.
- [56:08]
Jason Benetti
Ben. Thank you, Meg. Hi. Really appreciate it.
- [56:11]
Ben Lindbergh
I guess the secret is out now that you're pretty good at this whole broadcasting thing, because I don't want to say that when I first got to know you, you were the indie band that hadn't yet gotten its first major label deal. You were the voice of the White Sox. You were espn, but now you are doing play by play on Sunday Night Baseball. You're getting flattering profiles in the Sports Business Journal. Everyone is aware of Jason Benetti's baseball broadcasting acumen. So congrats on that. But I feel like you were our humble little broadcaster friend when we first had you on in 2018, and we were helping introduce you to the country, the nation at large. And now the nation knows you, which is good because, again, you're good at this.
- [56:58]
Jason Benetti
I appreciate that. You know, it's funny you said that, because I had a close friend say something similar, and my response was, but I love the Decemberists, you know. Yeah.
- [57:12]
Ben Lindbergh
Not that indie bands get bad necessarily when they get their big major label breakout, but. But, you know, you feel a little less ownership over them. And. And I met you when emceeing Sabre seminar in Boston, I believe, in 2017. So you've come a long way.
- [57:31]
Jason Benetti
We did the bit about recycled batteries. That was one of my favorite bits. There was a sign in the auditorium about where you put recycled batteries for science class. And the White Sox happened to have James Shields and Dionna Navarro, who had been Tampa Bay's pitcher and catcher before being the White Sox's pitcher and catcher. And so we did whole recycled batteries bit with the audience, and I loved it.
- [58:01]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. So that's how long ago that was that James Shields and Deanno Navarro were relevant references. So this is something of a dream job or your latest dream job. So how and when did this come together for you?
- [58:16]
Jason Benetti
Yeah, so NBC had always said after 2022, when I did the leadoff games, when they had baseball for the first. First year there, that when I had gone to Fox, that if they got baseball back, they would give me a call. And I thought that was just like a thing you say when you like people and don't want to burn bridges. And what ended up happening was NBC got baseball back, and they called my agent and they said, would he be interested? And we went through the process of talking to Fox and seeing if they were okay with it, and they were, which was great of them. But the process was basically, NBC got baseball, they made a phone call, and then we went through. Because I had to get out of my Fox deal early. I was a Fox employee until August of this year of 26. And so we talked to Fox, and as you mentioned in the Sports Business Journal, Brad Zager said he wasn't going to stand in the way of this kind of opportunity for me. So Fox was amazing about was hard to leave because I do have a ton of friends at Fox, and working basketball with Bill Raftery has been an unbelievable joy. And RG3 was great this past year as a partner, and the baseball friends I made were good as well. Quick hat tip to Adam Wainwright, who I think is a genius, but it was one of those things that when I got offered it, I didn't think there was anywhere else that I would end up being if it was an option. And it turned out being an option.
- [59:57]
Meg Riley
Well. And I can imagine that Tigers fans, when they initially heard, were ecstatic for you and terrified because you get to know a broadcaster for your home team and you, you know, you like spending time with that person. You feel like you know them. So talk to us about balancing sort of your. Your everyday duties with. With the NBC games being. Because I can imagine you're very tired, Jason.
- [60:21]
Jason Benetti
You know what, is this because I overslept?
- [60:26]
Meg Riley
We were not going to mention it.
- [60:28]
Ben Lindbergh
We weren't gonna blow up your spot.
- [60:30]
Jason Benetti
Yeah, he's running himself into the ground so much, he overslept effectively. Wild.
- [60:34]
Ben Lindbergh
You're just big timing us now, now that you're a national NBC guy.
- [60:38]
Jason Benetti
Right? That's how I do it. So. No. Well, funny. Very quick story. I was on a plane the other day, and there was this elderly couple that came up to me as they were walking down the aisle of the plane plane. And the gentleman was like, oh, you know, you're the Tigers guy. Yeah. Great to meet you. We love you. It was very nice. And then he said. He said, hey, do you have five minutes to wait after the plane lands? And then we could talk to you more. And his wife, like, hit him and was like, fred, you can't do that. He doesn't have time for that. But as they were leaving, they said, we were really worried that you weren't going to be here. And I was like, no. And I explained quickly that my travel schedule actually is easier this year with Sunday nights instead of Saturdays with Fox, because the Fox games being Saturday night into a Sunday usual day game. I mean, everybody's got Sunday day games because it's Sunday night. So I would fly in Saturday morning, do the Fox game Saturday night, fly back to the Tigers Sunday morning, morning, do the Tigers game, which is the same amount of travel. But then after the Tigers game, I would get on the charter with the team and go to the next place because series end on Sunday. I was actually flying double the amount last year, so. So that's great. And then I think also doing one day every week really helps the Tigers with continuity as well. Like, it's Sunday and Dan Dickerson will be in. And it helps Dan, too, because, you know, you know, when I was doing football in September, he was in and out of the radio booth so much, and he has been so selfless about doing TV to make this happen, and I think it's better for the team. But I also, you know, the thing that I've Noticed now doing a game every week for Sunday night is like I'm sitting in Atlanta as we're talking right now. I've had the Braves twice already on Sunday night, so I've spent time with Walt Walt twice that I wouldn't have spent as the Tigers announcer, you know, so I, I think I get to know the league better by doing both. And then sometimes I'll like, I, I had Kansas City for Sunday night. We did for Sunday night this past Sunday and I'd already seen them with the Tigers. So there is some, there's some overlap and Venn diagramming that's really helpful.
- [63:04]
Ben Lindbergh
And there was a Tigers game on Peacock last month and now back to back Sundays will feature the Tigers. So I don't know whether your getting the Tigers extra national exposure or whether that has more to do with Tarek Skubal or someone or whether that's just a coincidence.
- [63:19]
Jason Benetti
I said that to NBC when the schedule came out. I was like, you know, the Tigers are on the west coast to start the year and our first two games are on the west coast also. There are three Tigers games in the first eight. I know you guys said you wanted to have me for this, but please tell me you didn't. And they were like, absolutely not. There's no way the schedule would have any, any impact based on the announcer. And I was like, thank you. I didn't think that would be true, but I like, I couldn't live with myself if that were true. So, so, but yeah, it's been a pretty fortunate bounce and both of my regular Tigers analysts are going to end up as analysts on Sunday night, which I think is really cool. So Andy Dirks is doing two of them. Dan Petrie is doing this week with the Rangers. And so it's accurate actually really easier to do in this format instead of like the Fox me and say Eric Caros having done a, you know, a raised Tigers game or Tom Verducci. It was a couple years ago. There's no raised representative there. So, so there's, there's going to be always a Rangers point of view. So I, I really can just get excited for everything and not feel like I'm, I, I have to stress the opponent more than I, I would.
- [64:34]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. I don't know how many times the Tigers were on ESPN's Sunday Night Baseball of late, but I'm guessing this is an over representation relative to recent years. Unless they happen to play the Red Sox or Yankees on Sundays quite often.
- [64:48]
Jason Benetti
There was a weird Tigers Twins game last year on Sunday night, like right around the Fourth of July. And then ESPN took one other one. It was at the Rangers for some reason last year. But, but it's funny, I do think it takes like a year for the national net or maybe like two years to get the bang for your buck of a team improving. There's like a lag. There's a lag to selections.
- [65:16]
Meg Riley
I think that, you know, you're talking about having like a raised representative or what have you. I do think that one of my favorite things about the NBC format has been the integration of the local booths with you. I am going to request that you, that you, you convince people at NBC that KRUK doesn't have to wear a suit the next time he's on, because never have I seen a man look more uncomfortable with the requirements of his job. But how, how has that been for you? Sort of, you know, integrating those folks and being able to lean on their perspective? Because I imagine there's some, not that you'll ever speak ill of your broadcast partners, but, you know, some variability chemistry wise, as you're getting to know folks. But it is nice to be able to look at someone to your left or right and be like, yeah, tell us about this guy.
- [66:03]
Jason Benetti
Yeah, it changes my prep, honestly. I know the teams and I know the teams well, but I prep now to answer and ask the right questions, you know, like to stack in my mind what the team is and then winnow down the specifics with the people next to me. But, you know, with the inside the pitch person, Adam Otovino, Anthony Rizzo, Kershaw, whoever it might be on a weekly basis. There are very specific things to know about Arsenal and about Swing Path, so I can ask the right questions there, too. The crux thing begets so, so many tweets that. And one of the of which CJ Netkowski showed me in a break, that people were sending him over and over again about John and his suit. And I want to do it more. It was my takeaway. I want him to wear more suits because I do think it was such an absolute joy in the social media commentary space that why would we deprive people of that opportunity to caption pictures is how I think about. About it.
- [67:15]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. Maybe put him in a tuxedo next time. Just more and more formal dress with each broadcast.
- [67:20]
Jason Benetti
But yeah, cravats, like, make him look as much like Mr. Peanut as we can.
- [67:26]
Meg Riley
Yeah, the monocle.
- [67:27]
Jason Benetti
Right, the monocle. The thing about John, though, is he gets this reputation for saying wild things and you Know, unintentional comedy and real comedy and doing kind of zany. His baseball stuff is great. That was a really good baseball booth with C.J. and John and they're fun people. But that was kind of proof of concept for me that you put somebody with another person with another third random person and you get something totally different in pockets than I think people are known for. That was really fun for me to watch happen because he. He was right a lot. First guessing things that night.
- [68:12]
Ben Lindbergh
You know, this makes me think. I know there's a Mandela effect with Mr. Monopoly. The monopoly Man. Because everyone thinks that the Monopoly man has a monocle, but he actually doesn't. No. But I think they must be confusing the monopoly man with Mr. Peanut. That must be what's happening because not from vastly different eras. I think Mr. Peanut predated Mr. Monopoly. So I think it's just a case of mistaken identity. That clears things up for me.
- [68:37]
Jason Benetti
I think it's deeper. I think there's a rivalry between the two.
- [68:40]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [68:41]
Jason Benetti
I think Mr. Monopoly wonders exactly how such a legume could have gotten so rich and really over his station in life.
- [68:53]
Ben Lindbergh
Right. It makes sense for Mr. Monopoly to be dressed up like that, whereas the Peanut being dressed up like that is kind of reminiscent of Croc. It doesn't seem like the Peanut should be putting on airs like that. Although I think Mr. Peanuts of British heritage evidently. I guess they were trying to class up. Yeah, I think so. Which is interesting. He's a carpet bagger. I guess it's interesting, I guess. Is he Planter? Planters was maybe trying to class up its reputation. Perhaps.
- [69:20]
Jason Benetti
So does he have Plantar Anglocitus? Is that what's happening? Is he out for six to eight weeks?
- [69:30]
Ben Lindbergh
Where? Wow, that was. That was great. You never know where a Jason Benetti broadcast is going to be.
- [69:34]
Jason Benetti
Well, you started it.
- [69:35]
Ben Lindbergh
I did.
- [69:37]
Jason Benetti
You brought him to Britain like I. You can't now. Now. I'm not going to eat Planners peanuts the same way.
- [69:44]
Ben Lindbergh
It's going to have an accent.
- [69:46]
Jason Benetti
Yeah.
- [69:46]
Meg Riley
Will it influence your desire to eat them that the 2021 refresh of the brand was officially called a nut above?
- [69:54]
Jason Benetti
Oh, no, I don't.
- [69:57]
Meg Riley
I don't know that they tested that one very well.
- [69:59]
Jason Benetti
No, they didn't.
- [70:01]
Ben Lindbergh
I complimented your broadcasting. I think your accent work. Might need some work. But that's.
- [70:05]
Jason Benetti
It's not. It's not, Ben. It's not.
- [70:08]
Meg Riley
You need to do a Guardians game. And then we want to hear your take on Travis Bazana.
- [70:13]
Jason Benetti
So that's a tough One I, I've tried to do an Australian accent and it is carnage.
- [70:18]
Meg Riley
Yeah, it's a, it's a rough register to drop into for sure.
- [70:23]
Ben Lindbergh
So this Sunday you're working with Dan Petrie and Mike Bakcik, so you don't need to introduce yourself to Dan obviously. But I wonder when you don't have a personal connection with the broadcaster you're working with, when does that process start? Is it like when you worked with the late Bill Walton and you said hi when you got to the booth or you go out to dinner beforehand, you get to know each other, you break the ice before you start the broadcast podcast.
- [70:49]
Jason Benetti
It's full. Bill Walton Day of I, I don't like, I don't like, like setting rules as the week begins because that feels forced to me. So if I don't know the person, which is fairly rare now because you know, I'd never worked with Ryan Roland Smith but we talked in hallways and things like that. As you do in sort of his Australian accent. It was better than mine. Yeah, better than mine for sure. I didn't know he wanted to be a catcher growing up. I, we learned that live on the air that he was a left hander who wanted to catch and was told in one shocking moment that he couldn't and he, we got very deep. I felt like there was a billable hours situation with Brian Roland Smith, who was great, it was great with Rick Manning. But I like to meet them day of and we'll talk as a group around 3:30 and then we go to managers meetings. So we see each other asking questions and kind of have idle conversation and then we put on the headset and go. But it is, it is fully inspired by Bill Walton. Save it for the air. Right. So that's where I go with it.
- [72:03]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah. I mean it reminds me of the Curb youb Enthusiasm episode where Larry is middling. He's the one one not in the usual sense but he's at the dinner party, he's in the middle and he's critiquing people's middling. Cuz you have to facilitate the conversation at the dinner party and so you can be bad at middling and you end up with two split conversations going on.
- [72:23]
Jason Benetti
This is a disaster.
- [72:24]
Ben Lindbergh
It's a disaster. It's a complete disaster. My dinner party done.
- [72:26]
Jason Benetti
Yeah. Cuz Andy and Cassie are in the middle.
- [72:29]
Meg Riley
That's what it is.
- [72:30]
Ben Lindbergh
And they can't middle. You have to be able to carry the conversation. You have to be in interesting. You're the point guard there. You're distributing the ball.
- [72:38]
Meg Riley
They can't.
- [72:39]
Ben Lindbergh
They can't middle. And so it always. It seems like a great idea to have the local voices represented. And I always lament when we lack that in the playoffs. And I always wish that the people that fans are used to hearing all season long could have those gigs and bring their expertise and insight and personal experience to it. But there really is something to be said for the chemistry and the history. And that's why, I guess, you need someone like you who's pretty adept at making it sound like you have talked to these people before, or at least that you're good at making conversation with people you haven't talked to before.
- [73:15]
Jason Benetti
Yeah, I thought you were going to break into Adele when you said someone like you.
- [73:22]
Ben Lindbergh
But I.
- [73:22]
Jason Benetti
But I do. I do see it very much in the musical sense, where if you have a guitarist who leaves and then somebody has to jump on stage and fill in, people still want to hear Levon. You know, they want to hear the song that they know is baseball. And so, you know, Ian Eagle told the story once of. I think it was John McEnroe, but he was doing tennis, and there was somebody that just whizzed into the booth like, five minutes before air because they were doing another match or something, and they hadn't met, and it was like, okay, here we go. And I've always had that in my mind, too, with something like this, that people. People just want to see the show. They. They just want to hear the show, and they want to watch their team, and they. They want it to be good. I mean, there. There is a this American Life episode from a long while back called Fiasco that. And. And it's all about fiascos. There are three fiascos at the headlining. One is a. Is a Peter Pan production from high school somewhere locally. And it goes very, very poorly. But at one point, the narrator or Iris says the audience wanted it to succeed. They always want it to succeed from the beginning. And then at some point, there are so many mistakes that the audience starts to root for Fiasco. And as long as you don't get to the point where people start rooting for more Fiasco, you're in good shape. But it is worth remembering in this type of format, the audience wants it to succeed. I mean, there are certainly bad faith actors on the Internet who like Fiasco immediately, but I don't even know if that's bad faith. I think that's just people wanting something to be a disaster. But I think the audience wants it to succeed. So as long as it sounds like baseball and you're giving people insight, they'll give it the opportunity. And then, you know, after an inning or two innings, as long as this thing is on the rails and we're hitting the moments that we're hitting, I think people are going to end up liking it. But maybe that's hubris. But I also think the audience does want it to go well from the beginning, no matter what, no matter who. And if you give them a reason to think it's going well, they'll come along.
- [75:40]
Meg Riley
Yeah, I was curious about that, because I think, you know, one of the things that we really enjoy about your style of broadcasting is that there's this really great balance between an engagement with, say, advanced stats and the latest from statcast, but also a very human feel to the broadcast. What other broadcasts would provide. Ryan Roland Smith with free therapy for an inning or two. Right. And that balance, I think, is definitely easier to achieve on a local broadcast where, you know, the audience knows you to your point, they're rooting for every Tigers broadcast to go well. And they. You have a lot of sort of credibility with that group that. That allows you to tell them about, you know, some wonky stat that they maybe don't care about, but they're like, well, it's Jason telling us so we can kind of go along with him, even if it's not the way we think about baseball. I imagine establishing that sort of dynamic with a booth that you might not know and an audience that is less familiar with you, although to Ben's point, increasingly familiar with you, is a little more challenging. So I'm curious how you think about sort of balancing those things between the Tiger side and the national side.
- [76:54]
Jason Benetti
The thing that helps, and I don't know that I necessarily think about that weekly, it's probably more big picture of what I think about the job itself. So it's. That's one of those things that can be a little. Don't look down at.
- [77:10]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [77:10]
Jason Benetti
If. If you. If you get into that sensibility. But. But it is true. It's important. And I think what helps me with that is that I've now locally been a part of two fan bases. Right. So I just had to do that all over again in 2024 with the Tigers after eight years with the White Sox. And there were certain things that I would dabble in very early on with the Tigers that people would go, I don't really know what that is. And I'd get sort of this critical mass of response from an audience or even the people next to me that I go, oh, no, here's what that is, and then re. Explain it or use it a little less or more at the beginning. But you do have to establish that you can get things right. You have to establish that you do know that a game every week. Now, the. The positive is with MLB tv, I tend to think that most fan bases have clicked on a Tigers or White Sox game over time. But when we start, you know, we move from Peacock to NBC and a wider audience as well. I think that's a part of the calculus again, in a new way. Because the one thing that Sunday Night Football, I think, think does better than any sports telecast in America is they. They give you the broad sense of what these teams are. They will walk out the quarterback, certainly, but also they're going to do specific matchups for the cornerback versus the wide receiver or the defensive line, and they will get really specific from a broad base. And that. That is very difficult with four people because it tends to want to just go specific, broad, specific, broad. And you bounce a little bit. But I think over the course of time, like Saturday Night Live, where the ensemble figures out how to make sure the host hits every pocket, it's my job as the one in the booth that's the constant, to make sure that everybody hits the broad and specific. But I would say judging us over the course of nine innings is better than judging us over the course of one second, because it is going to be a varied discussion over a full game.
- [79:35]
Ben Lindbergh
Mr. Peanut's canonical name is Bartholomew Richard Fitzgerald Smythe.
- [79:41]
Jason Benetti
No.
- [79:42]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [79:42]
Jason Benetti
Okay, now, why don't they share that more?
- [79:46]
Meg Riley
Guy in the House of Lords who has a Peanut business on the side. What are we doing here?
- [79:50]
Ben Lindbergh
Mr. Peanut tweeted this in 2019.
- [79:53]
Meg Riley
Actually, I don't think Brand should tweet.
- [79:59]
Ben Lindbergh
Or anyone. Maybe.
- [80:01]
Meg Riley
Yeah, maybe.
- [80:02]
Ben Lindbergh
So I guess this is not unique to broadcasting, but so much is outside of your control in terms of the assignments that you get. It just depends on rights and the depth charts. And. And I talked to Jeff Passon about this last year because he was kind of in limbo about whether ESPN was going to have baseball, and obviously that would change his job. And whether NBC had baseball or whoever had baseball, you were waiting to find out. And when you were at Fox, you were an excellent broadcaster then, too. But they have other excellent broadcasters. They have Joe Davis, they have Adam Amin, et cetera. So you kind of have to wait for your break and for the right place to, to get the rights. So I guess there's a lot of uncertainty in that life. I mean, hopefully not. Hopefully you'll just be a staple of NBC Sunday Night Baseball for decades to come. But you just never really know. And I guess you just kind of have to wait until the opportunity arises.
- [80:57]
Jason Benetti
That is why existentially, that is why this situation was so important to me. You know, if you're, if your life's goal is to be the lead guy at every moment, at all times, that the reaper is coming for you, like at some point there's going to be a new model. At some point somebody else is going to be better than you or they're going to lose the rights or whatever. So judging yourself on anything other than the work is a really long term terrible idea because the, the flowers will disappear and wilt and it's just going to happen for everybody. And boy, that's pretty macabre. But, but the point being, I had never been this before and so to look myself in the mirror and say, this has been a successful career. I can truly tell you both that I'm good now in terms of the, you know, the, the, the earthly needs of broadcasting. Right. I would have wondered, would somebody put a person with cerebral palsy in the lead chair and whether, however many of my friends text me and say that's wrong. You don't have to think about it. Like, you wouldn't have had to think about that. That's BS because nobody's done that before. And so now that that's happened, I am fulfilled in that regard. And yeah, there is whimsy of rights holding and there is bizarre movement of games and all of that. And you just. I refuse to get swept up in anything other than the idea that I was this at one point and I'm throwing everything I have at it. And if it's great, great, and if it's not great, but like, it's going to be the effort that I know I have to give to make something great. And we have a crew to do that as well. And we have a really fun format. But to your point, there are a lot of phenomenal announcers. There are great announcers who haven't gotten their break. Like, you look at Fox's coverage of Major League Baseball and Joe is phenomenal and Adam is phenomenal. And there are a bunch of people that are really good. And on their bench is a guy like Connor Onion, who is a fantastic young announcer who hasn't had his thing yet. There are a bunch of people who, if given the opportunity, are going to have that type of thing happen as well. So I know that there are always people trying to be at the level of lead announcer and they're going to make it and it's going to be. It's a zero sum game in some regard, although the splintering of rights has changed that. But the point being, I am fulfilled because this has happened and, and I don't really need anything else in the broadcasting department.
- [84:02]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, you could be a blocked prospect. There's just someone established ahead of you. No matter how good you are, maybe you can't displace them. Although I guess it's a little different in the sense that in MLB you're under team control for a set amount of time and in broadcasting maybe, maybe you can get release from your contract and you can go elsewhere without being rule fived. And that's kind of what I'm wondering about. I have to tip my cap to the agents and the lawyers, like how many people must be involved in making this work. Because I did an article last week, I talked to Kenny Albert and Dick Stockton because Kenny Albert passed Dick Stockton for the most national broadcast best ever of MLB plus NFL plus NBA plus NHL games. And Kenny Albert, he works for several networks simultaneously. So he does Rangers and Knicks for msg. He calls NFL and MLB for Fox, he works NHL for tnt. And I guess he's a former colleague of yours at Fox but now is also still kind of a colleague of yours because he does the Olympics for NBC. Maybe you'll be working together at point, some. Some point and Stockton the same, right? I mean he was a NBC guy and also a Fox guy. So it seems like everyone works for everyone whether at some point in their career or even at the same time. And so I know that there are carve outs like the Sports Business Journal piece mentioned that you get 35 days, right? Or 35 dates games off from calling games for Detroit Sportsnet so that you can make the national schedule where it. But how many parties have to be cc'd to work out something like this? When it's like yeah, he's under contract, but we'll let him out of it. But. And when you have people who are juggling different sports as you have done and different networks at the same time, there must be an incredible amount of coordination. So I wonder whether that's the convention in the industry that it's just understood that everyone will work together to make this work or does that depend on. On relationships and just luck of the draw.
- [86:08]
Jason Benetti
God Love the Tigers is my answer to that. Truly. God, love the Tigers because they signed me when I had a national deal. They wanted me to have national interests. When I told them about the NBC thing, the team president, Ryan Gustafson was like, great, fantastic. We'll work it out. And if you need anything, call, call me. And I said, did I text the right, you know, the right person? Like, I'm not. That's not the way it normally goes. It really isn't in this industry. And I totally understand when teams want their announcer to do all the games. I do think I've heard stories of people being. And somebody's going to assume that. I mean, the White Sox on this. I don't. But there I. I really don't. There have been teams, though, that are petty about national stuff and use spring training to block somebody from doing this or that. And it's like, guys, it can only help you to have your announcer have a bigger profile. And I get it. There are some Tigers fans that want me to do all 162. That wasn't the lay of the land when I got there. And it's not going to be the lay of the land unless something changes. But I really do. The Tigers deserve a ton of credit for being so wide minded about this, to be so understanding that I don't really have to cc many people at all. There are teams that would make it a worrisome enterprise to do a lot of things, to do multiple things. That's not the way the Tigers have been. And to be totally frank, think my agents, Kevin Belby, Matt Kramer have said to me, the Tigers, the way they've handled this, we are going to send it to other teams to show them. When the NBC thing got announced, the Tigers put out a statement congratulating me. That doesn't happen in this industry. So it is difficult for some young announcers, especially who don't have leverage. There are teams who say, we. Well, you gotta. You gotta do all of our games. Even though that young announcer has national interests. And I feel for those people because it's really hard to climb in this industry. I mean, I was talking about Connor Onion, but there are a number of young announcers who just haven't broken through yet because, you know, once you get, quote, unquote, a name, the opportunities multiply exponentially. It feels like. And then like the agents want to spend time on the people who are already established. And I just, I think there are some young announcers out there who, if given the opportunity, would really, really flourish. But I thank the Tigers for letting me do both.
- [88:57]
Meg Riley
We hear this with, with players, right? It's a long season. By the end of it, even though they're doing this thing that they really love, most of the time they can be a little wary. Right. A little worn. Worn by the duration of the season. You know, you have an obvious energy and sort of enthusiasm for baseball when you're in the booth, but I imagine that when you're looking at the dog days, you're maybe a little worn. Also, how do you sort of sustain your, you know, vitality in the booth over the course of 162, especially with all the travel that comes from balancing local and national.
- [89:32]
Jason Benetti
Yeah, I work on my Welsh accent and that really does get me fired up. No, it's all about the energy of your booth. You try to work off the energy of the people around you. And I have learned for right and for wrong that if I don't have energy, I'm going to be an energy sponge for other people. And the days where it's difficult, you wake up and say, okay, we have to that for a 12:15 after a two hour rain delay, we still got it to the point earlier. People just want to see the show. Nobody cares if Springsteen's a little tired or like didn't sleep. You know, it doesn't matter to the audience. And so reminding myself of that is huge. But also I really do. And I don't know how much he draws on it. I think he might want to kick it out of his mind sometimes. But for, for four years, Kevin Brown and I did AAA baseball together. And you're talking about two people who ended up being major league announcers, just kind of figuring out what they are as creatives next to each other in a booth. And we so often just veered off course in the fifth inning of a 9 to 1 game and found some bit or something. And I think it really helps to know that number one one, you got nine innings. It is a show in some regard. It's three hours. There is, there is maybe two and a half now, but there's a, there is a constraint on it. At some point it's going to end. If you get to the 18th inning, it's going to be so ridiculous that that's playable too. But it, you know, we learned very quickly together that there's always a creative answer. There's always something that you're mind can do in a game that is nine to one. And you know, that that goes for Vin. That goes for a lot of the really, really greats. But Kevin and I doing games together I think really helped me realize that you need to be there for your partner, number one, and then you need to be there creatively for your partner as well.
- [91:39]
Meg Riley
Yeah.
- [91:40]
Ben Lindbergh
And one of the critiques of ESPN Sina Night Baseball was that it often seemed that the games themselves were sort of a sideshow show. There were interviews constantly going on, there were bells and whistles. And Rob manfred himself criticized ESPN's foregrounding of baseball. And obviously ESPN has a lot of rights and a lot of sports to serve, and so does NBC for that matter. But it seems like NBC is really putting an emphasis on baseball and who knows how the national rights will work out when all of those come up in a couple years. But they are trying, it seems like, to make NBC sort of a Sunday destination all day for baseball. Now, Sunday night baseball is sometimes on Peacock, sometimes on NBC proper, sometimes both. But starting this weekend, I believe it's kind of an all day affair because there's the MLP Sunday leadoff, so there's a game before the game, and then there's the Sunday stretch whip around show, and then there's the, the pregame for Sunday Night Baseball and then there's you. So you have a whole lot of openers, warm up acts. Right. So this is, NBC seems to want people to tune in all day on Sunday almost in kind of a football sense, just to watch baseball start to finish.
- [92:57]
Jason Benetti
NBC loves sports, Ben. They really do. I, I, I will tell you, they love what sports can be for storytelling and they love baseball ball for that as well. They, they want us to lock in on the game. They want everybody in the booth to be what they are. But the, this, these matchups matter. There's a reason Adam Otovino has become, I think an informational star very quickly. He is so good at breaking down matchups and situations. And right on right, left on right. What does that look like? What that does, does this guy have, I mean, he called Seth Lugo an alchemist last week. That's awesome. It's, there's, there's, there's a lot of really good in the format and I love the inside the pitch stuff because it does allow us to get to really the pith and the core of what baseball is. You know, NBC is not like, hey, they're walking and striking out too much. The answer is why? Why are they walking? Why are they striking out? Why are they, what is the purpose behind this matchup? Why is this pitcher in? We have the arsenal to do that. And so it's a joy for me to get to see where this thing goes because they really. I don't just say that because I'm an employee, too. I promise. Like, I've thought, Sunday Night Football is the best show in sports television. And. And part of the artillery of NBC that goes to that, that is going to our baseball show. So I feel great about how much the network cares about it. And that's not to knock anybody else. It really isn't. ESPN was great to me. Fox was great to me. I don't mean that in any disparaging way. I just think the care factor about information. The backbone of NBC is their research department. You watch the Olympics and the stories that they tell on NBC about specific people from the smallest countries. That doesn't happen unless a network says, we care about the people in uniform, we care about the people behind the athletes. And they do. And it. And I think it makes for a more vivid picture.
- [95:14]
Meg Riley
You know, I don't want to denigrate any of the other streaming partners, but they're, you know, like when we were watching on opening day and. Or opening night. Excuse me. You know, you can tell that Netflix hadn't done that before. Right. And there were, there were broadcast beats that I think a network with more experience, not only with sports generally, but baseball specifically, would have sort of had figured out. And that isn't to say they won't find their way, but it was nice to put, you know, know, NBC on and be like, oh, I'm in a safe pair of hands. Like the, you know, this, this network knows how to do this, even if it hasn't been sort of front of mind for them in recent years because of broadcast rights like this. They. They know what they're doing here. How nice. It does make a big difference in your enjoyment of the game when you're like, I'm not going to miss anything.
- [96:05]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah, I noticed that Benetti finally sounds prepared, like he's not just winging it, flying by the seat of his pants. And now I know that's obviously NBC's research department.
- [96:15]
Jason Benetti
Yeah, thank goodness that big top is over with me. That Gong show of an announcer. I really like the phrase Gong show to talk about something that's a disaster. And, you know, you try to not be that. But, you know, the funny thing about our format is I do think, think there will be innings where people think there's too much talking, there's too much whatever, because four people is a bunch. But I also think that over the course of time we're gonna be comfortable with the format. And I. But it is, it is an interesting, it is an interesting dynamic because I do think this format is best long term than in any given moment. But if you use the three people with you. Jason, I'm talking to you, Jason. If you use the three people with you properly to do a sequence in a big moment of a game, and we have not yet had on NBC proper, one of those big moments where everybody's chiming in with a little bit of a detail of this 3, 2 pitch or a 9 pitch at bat. I think we have the horses to make something really special. Even if in the first inning we're always finding our footing. That's the real fun part about this, is you have nine innings to convince people this operation can do surgery.
- [97:40]
Ben Lindbergh
I do want to ask you two Tigers questions which aren't really off topic since you're calling the Tigers this Sunday. One is that the tigers are in first place as we speak here on Wednesday with a 15 and 15 record. And, and first place is first place. You'll take it. And maybe this is more of an AL issue than it is specifically an AL Central issue because there are three teams with winning records in the American League right now. So it's just kind of a mid off, top to bottom. But this plays into the stereotype of the AL Central, which doesn't mean that the teams are less entertaining to watch or that the race isn't exciting, but it's often used as sort of shorthand for one of the weaker divisions. And on, on the whole, over the long run, that has been true. When you look at the AL Central's record versus teams outside of the division, do you foresee a future where that might not be the case, where, you know, you're never going to have the Yankees or the Dodgers in the AL Central, presumably. But when there will be not just good or competent teams, but powerhouses when the AL Central could be the class of baseball.
- [98:49]
Jason Benetti
I, I just haven't been able to get Bernie Mid off out of my mind after you said mid off. So I think I missed the rest of it. No, the, the thing about the AL Central is I, I was talking to a front office member who is not a member of the Tigers, but he said, you know, all these teams are kind of similarly situated. We're all trying to do this on the margins.
- [99:10]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [99:10]
Jason Benetti
In the AL Central, and I think you're going to end up with stretches like this. I also think the American League, you know, the National League right now is standing there and the American League is shorter. And you know that picture where like, the bully puts his hand on the little kid's head and the little kid's flailing? Like, that's kind of what it feels like right now in the American League just to start the year. But the Royals have gotten hot ish now. They beat ATH last night. That's four in a row now for Kansas City City. You know, I think there are teams that are playing below their situation in the al. I still think Baltimore might be good ish this year. I think the Tigers probably end up better than, you know, a couple games over.500. And I would never discount the Guardians, ever. Ever. They've given us all the reason to never do that. And the Mariners are climbing too. I think there are teams in the AL that are digging out of tough starts. But I, I wonder, you know, if expansion were to happen. I, I do think about this just, just as sort of a thought experiment. If expansion were to happen, what do you do with the AL Central pairs? Because you figure the Chicago teams are going together. I, I wonder who ends up in the NL and the al. I just wonder about that too. But I would hate to see this band of five break up because they are, they are kind of in it together in a way, giving opportunity to each other. But, but the Tigers plan is to be really good for the long haul. I mean, the, the Kevin McGonagall type, the Max Clark type in the future. The Tigers feel like they have the depth to do that, especially offensively, you know, and, and they went and spent on fr. So that's, that's a good sign for the, the Tigers. But I, I do think that the AL Central for the foreseeable future is the land of opportunity.
- [101:05]
Ben Lindbergh
Just want to note for everyone that you did in fact just refer to the A's as ath, I believe, which is.
- [101:11]
Jason Benetti
No, we call them ATH all the time on the telecast because we're not supposed to say Sacramento.
- [101:16]
Ben Lindbergh
Right.
- [101:17]
Jason Benetti
And so the Tricode. The Tricode.
- [101:21]
Ben Lindbergh
Yeah.
- [101:21]
Jason Benetti
Yeah. So. So in September of last year, the Tigers were playing at Cleveland and losing at Cleveland and Houston. The Tigers then competition for that wild card spot was playing at ATH and we were going back to our rooms in Cleveland and watching ATH and rooting for ATH as Tigers people. And at the end of the year, it looked a little dire. So we got Doordash Taco Bell. I did. And this is rock bottom, by the way. Door dash, Taco Bell. That came on A bike. And you know, you have the little emblem that shows a car normally. Well, this was a bike. So. Doordash Taco Bell came. I dropped it off at Andy D hotel room door. I just left him one Doritos Locos Taco, right? To try to break whatever curse was going on with the Tigers. As we were rooting for ath, ATH won that night. Andy forgot about the taco until he woke up in the middle of the night like 1:30 in the morning, opened his hotel room door at a pretty fancy hotel in Cleveland, crushed a Doritos Locos taco on video and sent it to our group. That is, ladies and gentlemen, rock bottom bike door dash rooting for Ath Doritos Locos Taco in September.
- [102:39]
Ben Lindbergh
And my second Tigers question concerns one Kevin McGonagall. And if the Tigers are trying to build a bright future, then he's the guy to help them do it. And maybe he will lead the AL Central into its imperial era. He is leading the Tigers in war. He is in the top 10 in the American League in war. He is 21 years old. I'm sure that you are preparing yourself to introduce a national audience to Kevin McGonagall this weekend. Our listeners have probably been introduced to him by us or others. But tell us a little bit about having a front row seat to watch this guy look like he has been in the league for his whole life.
- [103:17]
Jason Benetti
I'm glad you asked because we pulled the numbers and this is not at all graphically feasible to air in any way that really gets to the center of the question we asked our friends at Sport Radar. But yesterday we asked Kevin McGonagall's pitch type scene by serial series. Okay, so San Diego 29 and a half percent, Arizona 34 and a half percent fastball, right? So 30%, 35% St. Louis in three games through him, 55% fastball. Minnesota 62%, Miami 51 and change. Kansas City 61, Boston just under 61, Milwaukee 66, Cincinnati 49%. So the league started by throwing him a ton of breaking stuff. They went away from that after he hit well in San Diego and Arizona threw him just a boatload of fastballs that didn't go great. So then The Marlins tried 20% off speed. Then Cincinnati goes under 50% fastball. I just wonder how much you see that kind of fluctuation for a 21 year old. You usually it is. Let's expose that. Let's put some hydrogen peroxide in the open wound and watch it bubble. And it's not been that way for him.
- [104:39]
Ben Lindbergh
They're probing for weaknesses and not finding any.
- [104:41]
Jason Benetti
And they're not finding any. I think that's as illustrative as anything of what he has done so far this year. It's remarkable how often we see him strike out on a pitch, ground out on a pitch and then later on or like foul one off and then later in that at bat or later on in the game solve it. He is really beyond his years in pitch recognition and I think the league is finding that out and now maybe it's location that they start hunting for weaknesses with, but I haven't seen one yet. He is just a special baseball talent in that regard specifically. But he also, you can just tell Bobby Scales used the word indignant about him last night and the telecast. I think it's really good for his facial expressions. Like somebody will throw him something that's kind of nasty and he'll just kind of look in. Not with sass, but just with no, I'm a person here too. I've got this. I understand this. It has been very entertaining to watch.
- [105:45]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, there was some of that vaunted research that we discussed, a Benetti blast live on the podcast. And and lastly, I guess maybe you could recycle the Bob Costa story that you told to Sports Business Journal and probably others, because it's a good one. Because I wanted to mention when I was talking about the itinerant peripatetic life of a broadcaster, this is sort of your third incarnation as an NBC broadcaster, I guess, because you did White Sox games for NBC Sports Chicago, and then you did Peacock Sunday Leadoff Games in 2022. And now you have come back again and you've also kind of come full circle where Bob Costas is concerned.
- [106:26]
Jason Benetti
Bob has been one of those guys at every junction point in my life. We don't talk every week, every month, maybe once a year. But he has been a constant, in part because when I went to Syracuse, it was go be Bob Costas, legitimately a friend of mine from high school. When I got into Illinois and Syracuse for college, Northwestern decided that they had other people they were pursuing. And so I got into Syracuse in Illinois and I could have stayed home. And by the time we came around to the day before I was supposed to leave and go to Syracuse, I was having second thoughts. And I was on AOL Instant messenger for a long while while with a friend of mine the the night before I left.
- [107:17]
Ben Lindbergh
Would you care to divulge your screen name?
- [107:20]
Jason Benetti
No. No, I wouldn't but it's a great question. It's a great question.
- [107:25]
Ben Lindbergh
Had to ask.
- [107:26]
Jason Benetti
We were online and just batting back and forth, like, what the ramifications were of me going to Syracuse. And he legitimately said to me, go be Bob Costas. I was like, yeah, okay, right. So. So then I go to Syracuse, I become the sports director. Small fish in large, large pond at the station that Bob came through, WA R in Syracuse. And I sent a CD of my work to Bob. And I was visiting a friend of mine in Baltimore after I graduated and driving around in a rental car, and I get this phone call from a restricted number, and I, I answer and I hear, jason, this is Bob Costas. I was like, okay, well, that's, you know, we didn't have AI then, so it wasn't some sort of scam. I was like, well, that's gotta be Bob Costas. Sounds a lot like him. So we talked for maybe 20, 25 minutes about my, my tape, and he was great. And, you know, there was a chance that he needed a writer on his HBO show, Costas now. And so the, the dean of Newhouse, the school at Syracuse, the communication school, kind of put in a good word for me on that. And Bob basically said, you know, if you want to be a play by play announcer, go do games. And so I did. I got minor league baseball jobs, and I'd send him a tape every once in a while. And he was great. I mean, he, he always gave me good advice. I remember once I, I sent him a minor league tape, and he was like, you know, if you want to be in the major leagues, you should reference the major league club more in your tape. I know you want to do right by the players that are there, but they are part of the context of a broader major league baseball. And that was great advice. And I, in aaa, had Steven Strasberg come through. And so we had a couple TV games that were on Massen, and Bob ended up doing Stephen's debut on either MLB or. I don't know who aired it at the time, but against the Pirates, Bob Costa called Steven's debut. And I had sent him a tape around then of stuff that had Strasberg on it. So he called me after he did the game, and we kind of did a debrief of his game and what he did that he wanted back and what he did that he liked that night. And I've just always seen him as this guy who is so analytical about the craft, and that does match up with my brain in a lot of ways. But you. He has always had time for me, and it felt extraordinarily full circle. And I called my friend Rich or sent him a text, and then we talked after. Once Bob tossed it to me for that Dodgers Diamondbacks game, and I was like, you know, I'm not Bob Costas, but he tossed to me. Did I do right by your advice? You know, and he and I are still friends from all the way back in high school, and it was.
- [110:13]
Meg Riley
Was.
- [110:14]
Jason Benetti
I had to joke when Bob tossed it to me that night at Dodger Stadium, because if I didn't, I probably would have gotten emotional. I had to gather myself because there is this, you know, you go to Syracuse and you want to do right by the place because all these greats have come through. Sean McDonough, Mike Tirico, Ian Eagle, Marv, Marty Glickman Costas, so many, so many others. And. And to have done it right by the industry means a great deal to me.
- [110:45]
Ben Lindbergh
Big shoes to fill, but I think you're filling them. Not a dry eye in the house after that story. And I'm sure Casas would have told you to talk more about mascots with monocles. Mr. Peanut, Mr. Monopoly. All the misters. Get into that at Sunday, if you can. Yeah, sure. No monocle, as far as I know. But we appreciate your work. We have long appreciated it. We thought you were the best before NBC came calling. So you heard it here? Well, not even close to first, but not last, at least. And as NBC told you, if we get baseball, we'll give you a call.
- [111:22]
Jason Benetti
I will say I have always appreciated your care for my work and your podcast. And, you know, you all love baseball in a way. Way that really means a lot to a lot of people and how bright the details are of the game and how wonky your mind can be as you follow the threads of baseball. And I just. I really appreciate your sensibility, both of you, and I'm glad this thing exists.
- [111:50]
Ben Lindbergh
Well, thank you very much. And speaking of podcasts, yours is about to be back. Have a seat with Jason Benetti and Dan Dickerson. Season three. The preview just came. Came out.
- [112:00]
Jason Benetti
It wouldn't be a heartfelt goodbye without hawking stuff.
- [112:03]
Meg Riley
So, yes, podcast and peanuts.
- [112:06]
Jason Benetti
Yeah. Yeah, we don't need to grab your popcorn. Just grab Mr. Peanut and his friends.
- [112:11]
Ben Lindbergh
Yes. Okay. We will let you go now because you had a sore throat last night. And so you better go back on vocal rest because there are a lot of people now. No pressure hanging on your every word.
- [112:22]
Jason Benetti
Bye.
- [112:23]
Ben Lindbergh
That will do it for today. Thanks as always for listening and special thanks to those of you who support the podcast on Patreon, which you can do by going to patreon.com, and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks, including unfettered access to our next episode. The following five listeners have already signed up Daniel Jackson, Aaron Pond, Katherine Burnham, Duncan and Ben Chin. Thanks to all of you. Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only, that aforementioned weekly episode, Unresponsive Restricted, as well as a monthly bonus episode which will be coming later this week, plus exclusive live streams, fangraphs memberships, shout outs at the end of episodes, potential podcast appearances, personalized messages, prioritized email answers and more. Check out all the offerings@patreon.com effectivelywild if you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email, send us your questions, your comments, your intro and outro themes. @podcastangraphs.com you can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook group@facebook.com group effectivelywild. You can find the effectively wild subreddit at r effectivelywild and you can check out the podcast post at Fangraphs or Patreon or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We will be back with that third episode of the week soon. Talk to you then.
- [113:48]
Jason Benetti
Discussing baseball, you spin and the colony
- [113:58]
Meg Riley
semi erotically
- [114:02]
Jason Benetti
stack was passed class and better for free. Three new episodes for us each week Effectively.