← Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Effectively Wild Episode 2492: Pride Goeth Before Baseball
01:34:35
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- [00:00]
A
Every out's been a strikeout. Everything else has been a non ball in play. So here is James Outman. He has been effectively wild. The pitcher or the podcast? There's a podcast, Effectively Wild as well? Well, the pitcher, but yeah. So I think that's where they got the. I think it was a baseball term before they named it a podcast. You think so? I don't think they coined it. Fascinating. You're a treasure trove. Effectively Wild. Effective moral sauvage. Affective moral sauvage.
- [01:02]
B
Hello and welcome to episode 2492 of Effectively Wild, a FanGraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Riley of fangraphs and I am joined by Ben Lindberg of the Ringer. Ben, how are you doing?
- [01:15]
A
Okay. Congrats to the Knicks. Congrats to the Carolina Hurricanes. Yeah, but it's baseball's time now.
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B
I think, I think we're, we can let the Knicks have like a couple more days. They've waited a very long time for this.
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A
Yes, yes, they have.
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B
You know, been a beat for the, for the Carolina Hurricanes. Really tremendous sports year for the Meg Rowley, Lindsey Adler, Emma Bachelari, group chat. We're really, we're really crushing it. You know, we're doing, we're doing good.
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A
Yep. Yeah, y. It's been exciting. They were both exciting series with some comebacks and the city is as sports pilled as I've ever seen it. Incredible pent up demand for a Knicks championship. Yeah, yeah, it was pretty palpable. But I do always sort of celebrate even as a non other sport hater. It's always nice when MLB gets the spotlight for a few months. That, that little interregnum, that little interlude and lull. Well, some people would consider it a lull, but we don't. Between NHL, NBA and NFL returning, this is baseball's time to shine.
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B
Well and like look, we got the W in full swing.
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A
There's always other sports going on.
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B
Yeah, this is a fertile sports town.
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A
The World cup is happening. Not sure if you're aware of that.
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B
You know what I'm going to say? I'm going to say this. I feel like I need to, I need to admit this. As a soccer doubter, I remain a soccer doubter. But also it's a lot of fun, man. World Cup's fun. It's fun. It is so nice of them to like tell you who all of the, the broadcasters are. I don't know any of these people. They'll be like this Is Jimmy John. That's not anybody. He is your four time champion. Dreadful to pony Vaughan. And I'm just like that's great for him. I love that for him. For old Jimmy John. I also have been amused. I noticed this yesterday that they, they are not referring to. I don't know if this is true across all the broadcasts. They, they had cut to one of the games in Philly and they, they weren't calling it Lincoln Financial Fields, which is where they're playing the games, which is where the Eagles normally play. They called it like something else. And I was like, is it because they don't think in an international. Like are they the. The feed internationally and they don't think an international audience would be able to keep track of all the dumb names that we give to our stadiums. Anyway, I just, it's been, it's been great fun. Also there, there are some. Ben, there's some crazy new penalties in soccer. Mistaken identity is a penalty. That's the thing they check for. That's amazing. Soccer is great. I mean it's not for me most of the time, but only most of the time. This time. Sports with stakes. It's hard to beat sports with stakes, even if it's not your sport, you know. Yeah.
- [04:21]
A
I'd sign up for the MEG Rally alternate World cup broadcast. That sounds fun. Where all the players are named after sandwich chains.
- [04:28]
B
Oh yeah, sounds fun. Jimmy Johnson. We should do it after I've had my wisdom tooth pulled later today and
- [04:34]
A
just see, see how that goes. Yes. You know, while the NBA finals were happening and everyone was swept up in basketball fever here in New York and nationally and internationally, everyone was really getting into this game that kind of went viral called 82 and. Oh, were you familiar with the 82.0 phenomenon?
- [04:54]
B
I saw it. Yeah.
- [04:55]
A
Yeah. 82 and0.com and it's this game you can play where you build out your all time team and you just kind of randomly draw teams from certain decks decades. And then you just have to fill out the five positions and you take your pick from each team slash decade you got. And then you put together the best starting five you can. And it supposedly simulates how good that team would be. And you're aiming to go 820 which is possible but quite difficult. And there is a baseball equivalent to this called162.0. As you might expect, it's@162baseball.com and I tend not to get into games like this that much. But I tried 82. 0 and then I tried 162. 0 and I gotta say 162 0. No shots at the people who made this. But I don't think baseball lends itself to this kind of game nearly as well because you have to draft 17 roster spots in162.0. 1717 because it's baseball. And so you're just drafting your whole lineup and your rotation and your relievers and everything. And it's taking forever. And, and part of the fun of 82.0 is that it doesn't take that long and so you can just kind of reroll. Oh, I was close. Oh man, I was one away from nailing it that time. I'll go back for one more try. And then it just, it takes a few minutes to do 162 and oh, I'm sizzling in like, oh my gosh, there's still more picks. I still have to fill out my roster. This is taking forever. And I think it does just kind of speak to the difference in structure of those sports where in basketball you can go get one superstar and it at least propel you to the playoffs. That can really make a major difference. Whereas in baseball that is not enough. Helps to have a superstar, but it is not sufficient. And so you really do. It does. Put into perspective, I don't think it makes nearly as good a game, but it is sort of illuminating when it comes to you play these two games back to back and, and constructing a strong baseball team really is different from constructing a strong basketball team and you need much more than one or two really good guys. So ye, that's actually kind of illuminating.
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B
I mean, I guess it makes sense insofar as like, you know, those are the guys who are going to be most impactful. But it sort of strikes me as the coward's way out. You should have to build a 26 man roster. Like, come on.
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A
Yeah, yeah, go all in if you're going to go that far. Yeah, might as well.
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B
If you can't figure out a couple of bench guys to get you to 162, then what kind of roster building acumen do you really have?
- [07:36]
A
You know, that's true. Yeah. And I question the simulation engines that are powering these things, but nonetheless it's all in good fun. But it is a good exercise in remembering some guys. Obviously that's, that's really what it's for, I think. All right, we have much to discuss. Some good, some bad and some on the field, some off the field. Actually kind of all on the field in a way, which is Part of the problem. We will be talking about the Giants pride tonight fiasco, but I do want to just begin by marveling at the Miz, which I mentioned briefly last time when you weren't here. But this was nuts just watching Jacob Misrowski plow through the Phillies on Friday. And he's been good for a long time now. He is on a historic roll. But this game was as good a game as you're ever gonna see. Just about. It was a one hitter, thanks to one Kyle Schwaber single. And that was it. That was all that separated him from perfection. It was a 15 strikeout, 95 pitch, what, 77 strikes or something like that and a 100 game score and complete game shutout and a record Maddox record high strikeouts with that few pitches. It was just pure dominance. And it seems like every time out now he is raising the bar Velo wise. He's just kind of competing against himself and topping his previous mark every single time he goes out there. He hit.104.5 in this game and he was still firing 103 in the ninth. And just like the majority of his pitches were triple digits. And not just triple digits, but I mean he's just 102, 103, 104. It is unbelievable. So over his past eight starts he has a 0.17 ERA, which is a record over that many starts, at least openers excluded. And you could say, well, he's not going as deep into games as pitchers from earlier eras, which is true. But in this one he went the distance and just looked like he could have kept going. And it is just, it's pretty amazing. Yeah, that just the stuff and also the pure results. So I fear for his ucl, obviously,
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B
but as long as it lasts. How, how would you describe your anxiety level as pertains to the Miz? Because I could imagine with every strikeout in that game it ratcheting just ever so slightly higher with every, you know, fastball thrown over 100 miles an hour. You're just sitting there like everyone else is having a great time and you're eating your hair shaking, throwing up on the floor, just oh my God, he's going to blow out.
- [10:33]
A
He's going to blow up so soon. 74 strikes, not 77. Sorry I oversold him. He wasn't that good. Yeah, I, I am worried about it. Obviously it does feel like a, an Icarus ticking time bomb situation, but I'm trying to put that aside for now. I'm trying to, trying to just enjoy this because it is so impressive that, okay, we all understand the risks. We all understand that maybe he can't keep doing this forever, but I'm gonna try to enjoy it while it lasts and, and not just have that kind of looming dread just because so many guys get hurt. They're getting hurt. Const. If you're gonna get hurt, might as well just go out blazing, you know, just go out. 104. I don't know. We'll never know whether if he were throwing merely 101 or something, his. The risk would be that low. It. It should be lower in theory, but maybe he'll blow out either way. Might as well just kind of tap into it or just hope that he is a freak of nature and somehow he can sustain this.
- [11:37]
B
It is a place where, you know, I, I struggle. I don't have quite the same level of trepidation as. Because I don't. Obviously, the game is better when the best pitchers are pitching, but simply because we have seen that, you know, there are plenty of guys who don't throw as hard as the Miz who blow out, and there are guys who throw hard for a long time and they manage to stay relatively healthy. But one of the features of our new game graphs which include pitcher cards, right? So if you go to our rebuilt scoreboard section of the site, you can go to game graphs and we have these snazzy new player cards that Keaton primarily architected and they're so cool and they have a guy's pitch usage and his arsenal in the game and you can see his locations. And the pitch arsenal section will show you both how his pitch is rated either by stuff plus or pitching bot and the swinging strike rate that they got and the rate of strikes outside the zone and their zone percentage. And it also will show you you average velocity. And then if a pitch is up or down relative to the seasonal average, it'll show you by how much. And every time I look at a Mizarowski pitch card and see velo plus 1.5 relative to seasonal average, I'm just like, buddy, you, you, you can, you were, you were good in the last start when it was lower. You know, you can just remember that. And so I love it when one really great site features like exacerbate my background anxiety. But it does, it does work that way for me.
- [13:14]
A
Yes. Well, he has entered the degrom zone for me. And you could take that multiple ways. One is that he's just completely unhittable, which was degrom at his peak, but also just the, you don't need to be doing all that just because you were so good, even though you were not throwing this hard. And so I always wanted DeGrom to just, you know, take a tick or two off here. You were amazing throwing 96, averaging 96. You don't need to be averaging 99. But the Miz, there are really three guys who've been in the DeGrom zone for me lately. I think it's, it's DeGrom himself originally. And then it was Terex Gubo last year when he, he finished off a complete game against the Guardians. This was in May and it was five nothing game and nobody was on base or anything. And it was the ninth and he was facing Gabriel Arias and it was like he threw 102.6 to pick up that 13th strikeout and finish up the 94 pitch. Complete game shutout. And that time I was thinking, you know, you could have probably gotten that by him at 101 or something. You didn't necessarily need to be pumping 103 in there. He's held up okay other than of course, the loose body. But it's deGrom, Skubel and the Miz really who've entered that realm where, wow, they are just completely untouchable to the extent that they could probably get by with throwing a little slower and they just won't. And it's impressive and amazing and I marvel at it and also I'm a little worried. But the thing about the Miz is that earlier this year he was not throwing quite this hard, as you note. He was still throwing very hard, but not this hard and he was not as effective. I was hoping that I could do a little. Okay, here he is before and after. He's just achieved escape velocity like this and, and show that, oh, he was still really effective that way. He could have kept doing that. Well, he was good to start the season, but he wasn't great, let alone this just best pitcher in baseball, maybe best pitcher of all time kind of stuff right now.
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B
Right.
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A
But I think it's not just the Velo, it's the fact that he is throwing strikes and that is how he was so efficient in this game. Because typically you think strikeouts, they take more pitches per plate appearance at least than when you get balls in play and outs on balls in play. Even though when you get a lot of strikeouts, you get a lot of outs that way. And so your pitch count is not necessarily higher because if you're a pitch to contact guy, a lot of the contact Turns into hits, and then it resets and you have to start from scratch again. But the fact that he managed to get 15 Ks with only 95 pitches, he was just not really walking guys. He was not going to deep counts, he was not missing. And that is really what has characterized this Miz streak for me, even more so than the speed is that if you just. So he's made 14 starts this season. If you just lop them in two, and you look at his first seven and his second seven, in the first seven, he had a 48.2% zone rate, which was 30th out of 75 qualified pitchers over that span. And it was even lower at the start of the season. And it's kind of ramped up over time. But just that first half of his season, 48.2. So kind of a middle of the pack zone rate.
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B
Yeah.
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A
In this, this second stretch of seven starts, he is a 57.6% zone rate, which leads all qualified pitchers over that span. So he has turned into the ultimate strike thrower. And not just because people are swinging and missing at his pitches, but just in terms of he is filling up the zone. He is just like, here it is. Hit it. And they can't. And I think this is, this is smart. Obviously, you know, this saves him a little strain. Even if he's increasing the strain on a per pitch basis, maybe he's being a bit more efficient per inning, per start. So that's good. But I think he has just realized that, hey, this is sort of a cheat code. This is a life hack. Nobody can hit me. I'm throwing so hard and my stuff is moving and it's just so nasty that I don't have to mess around here. I don't have to nibble. I don't have to get guys to chase. I can just throw it right down the middle and they can't hit it. So that I think, and maybe it goes hand in hand with the fact that throwing 103, 104 is giving him the confidence to just throw it right in there. You know, if he were just throwing merely 101 or something, he wouldn't have the confidence to just throw it right down the middle. So maybe you can't have one without the other. But I think this is actually a better version of the Miz. Putting the, the speed aside. If you're that good, even when you're not really ramping it up, then just, just throw strikes, you know? Yeah. Can't hurt.
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B
Yeah. And we, we know that there Is, you know, there is a limit to the effectiveness of, you know, very straight fastballs, even when they're super hard. Right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
So it's not like you. You can't, you know, you can't have nothing else on it. But that's not. That's not true of him. Right. And all of his other stuff is so interesting, and it does move and, like, yeah, he. He went from being a guy who it seemed like, was very intriguing, but. But potentially always a little inefficient to a guy who is just like, reliably going seven. And I do think his ability to kind of throw like, a fu. Fastball and stay ahead in counts and avoid, you know, walking guys, it's just. It's having a really positive impact. I do, again, worry about him splintering apart, but, I mean, he is Charizard, right? Like, his fastball because he's with the fire. I know about Pokemon. I'm cool. I'm young, you know, it has evolved.
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A
It's true. This is the fully evolved version of this, maybe. Yeah.
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B
I like the. I like the baby version of Charizard the best, though. I don't like the evolution one ones as much. I think he's best when he's in his, like, initial form. I have an opinion about that.
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A
Yeah, I'm sure you. You and he could talk about that. You, I don't think, prefer the. I guess, I mean, Charizard, technically, I guess, is the evolved version. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, because, you know, you got Charmander.
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B
Oh, you're right. Charmander. Never mind. I'm a loser. See, I would go in trying to have credibility, and he'd be like. Like, this lady doesn't know what she's talking about.
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A
She doesn't know.
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B
She doesn't know about Charizard at all. What's the other one? Isn't there.
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A
I think Jimmy John is the name of the Pokemon.
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B
Right. There you go. Isn't there another. Isn't there. Isn't there a different dragon, though? Oh, the Mega Charizard.
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A
Oh, yeah.
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B
I don't like the Mega Charizard. Why do they make him a different color?
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A
Sounds perfect for you. Has Meg right in the name.
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B
I know, but I don't need to be. I don't need to be the. The Charizard. Why is he blue? Is this a shiny version? I gotta learn about some stuff.
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A
Anyway, in that stretch of ground is
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B
listed as a weakness. How is ground a weakness? What does that mean?
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A
In his first seven starts, he walked 9.7% of batters. And in the second seven starts, he has walked 4%. So he has more than halved his walk rate in that span while raising his strikeout rate. So, yeah, his strikeout, when he's fully evolved, that makes has gone from 28.4% to 37.4. It's good podcast. You just look. Pokemon stats. I'll read my stats.
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B
I'm just looking at, I'm looking at the Pokedex and I, I. He's so cute when he's little. You know, he's just like a little cute guy. And then the problem with Charizard is a comp for the middle is, is that, like, even when he was younger, he wasn't little. He has a baby face. You know, he's still very young in his face. And he is a. He is. Sorry. I'm gonna stop being weird about the Miz in a second. He has a youthful face in part because he has a very joyful face. Like, when he is happy about how something has gone on the mound, he has moments where he's doing, like, intense baseball man stuff. But a lot of the time he just is very smiley, which I think always reads younger to me. And so that part is like Charmander. But he was never tiny, except, I suppose, when he was like a little boy. But that's not how we know him.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, yeah. As soon as he was probably 10ft tall when he was a child anyway,
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A
he's probably a pretty big baby, but. Yeah.
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B
Pretty big baby. What is ground? How is that a weakness? I don't. Oh, he. They're susceptible to ground types.
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A
Right.
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B
Oh, I love Diglett. Okay, we can move on now. Sorry.
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A
The ground could be a weakness for all of us when we fall over. But. Yeah, I mean, the Miz looks diminutive after watching Wemby all week, but by baseball standards, he is huge. It is true. Yeah. So I don't know about Wemby.
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B
I. You know this.
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A
He didn't cover himself in glory either from a, a, a playing or a sportsmanship perspective.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Like, he's quite young. He will learn. He will also evolve.
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B
I mean, hopefully, otherwise we'll have a heel as the, the face of the NBA, which, you know, that's not without precedent.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But anyway.
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A
Yeah. Okay. Just a couple of phenoms. Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
The Miz has a couple years on wimby too, so he will mature. Anyway.
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B
Okay.
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A
Okay. I wrote my, my big brewers piece, by the way, so for anyone who
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B
has been a chance to read it yet.
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A
Yeah. Who been waiting for the follow up to our discussion on episode 2486 when I claimed the topic of the Brewers Clutchness. Well now I have dispatched with that topic. I don't know if I cracked the code the way they seemingly have with clutchness, but I wrote about it at some length with a lot of stats and some reporting. So I will not rehash it here, but I will link to it on the show page for anyone who wants even more on that topic.
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B
Okay?
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A
Okay. Also, I have been tracking, just keeping a little eye on Teruaki Sato who is really raking in NPB and just a little preview because the expectation is that he will be posted this off season. So I know that we have talked a lot about how it looks like it's going to be a weak free agent class and just not a lot of difference makers and some guys signed extensions and everything else. But Sato has a 236 WRC plus in NPP. He is as we speak batting.357.439, 670 and last year he had a 182 WRC plus and he hit 40 dingers. So he's been a good hitter, a very good hitter for a while now. But he also seems to be leveling up and peaking at the right time and he is just 27. He doesn't turn 28 until next March and so just putting this on everyone's radar is if it's not already that he's presumably going to get paid. I guess we can't say for sure after how Murakami's free agency went. And that's actually kind of an interesting comp because Sato strikes out a lot too and he has a 27.3% strikeout rate this year and it was 27 or so percent last year too. And so I wonder whether Murakami hitting as well as as he was before he got hurt if he keeps that up after he returns, whether that will actually help Sato's free agency. And you know, I don't know what the scouts say and what the tiny sample stats about how he does against good velo and everything. I'm not sure whether that tells the same story that it did for Murakami. But yeah, if you didn't catch Sato in the WBC where he hit well in in a handful of games too, if you can check him out, follow him. He plays for Hanjin and yeah, that's going to be possibly a you know, he should be the headliner when it comes to NPB players coming over presumably. So to get a guy. He's not as young as Murakami was, but he's still very much in his prime and he is, I think in better position than Murakami in that. Murakami's peak seasons in Japan came a few years before he was posted and then he had injuries and he had strikeouts and you know, Sato is maybe going to be coming off, assuming he's healthy and keeps this up. He's going to be coming off of his career year and yeah, there are teams that are going to be interested in him. He plays third base, he plays some outfield, so there's a little bit of flat flexibility or he could fit into more than one slot for potential suitors. So yeah, you know, we'll, we'll talk more about him obviously as we get closer to the off season and we'll get long and Hagen's take and everything else. But just scouting the stat line it is. Now he does have a.439 bat. I'm not saying that's not sustainable, but it's probably not sustainable.
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B
But you think that has something to do with it?
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A
Yeah, perhaps, but. But even if he just replicated his line from last year when he had a more believable 323 BABIP and and still was hitting 40 home runs and yeah, slugging almost 600 and again, even if it's, I think offenses bounced back slightly in Japan, it's still certainly a dead ball era over there, relatively speaking, historically speaking. So you got to put that in context too. And, and that's what WRC plus does, I guess. And the numbers are pretty eye popping. So yeah, start salivating. If you need a third baseman or outfielder, maybe he can be your guy and maybe Murakami can help him. I have been thinking a little bit about what this year's trade deadline is going to look like because we're well into the season when people are posting their trade deadline previews and everything and I know that we. What did we declare? Didn't we declare a deadline or something or a starting date for. I forget what we said.
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B
Yes, we were initially, or at least I had initially advocated that you not be able to do trade deadline talk until 16 June using the arbitrary date of when the Giants traded for Devers last year because oh yes, happy one
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A
year anniversary for the trade.
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B
I was of the belief that we should understand that deal within the context of the deadline because part of what seemed to motivate San Francisco's decision Making was like, let's get this done so that this guy can help us potentially push for a playoff spot. And then what happened? But so I, I think that people are sort of in safe territory now. It's not technically the 16th yet, but we're, you know, we're close enough that I think you're okay to do it.
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A
It. Yeah. And people did not abide by that embargo anyway. So you want to read the whole Jeff Passon preview the trade deadline. You can. It's out there. And, and especially because this is a, a late trade deadline this year, August 3rd. And so that probably pushes back the starting point a little more. Or it should in theory. Anyway, it will be June 16th by the time people are listening to this podcast. So we have not broken our own arrangements. Which side has gotten the worse end of the Dev deal, by the way, now that one year has gone by, I saw there was an athletic piece where Jen McCaffrey and Andrew Baggerly did a, A tag team retrospective on that trade and the headline was that it had been a, A dud for both sides. Basically. It's, you know, it's, it's a lose, lose. I don't know which side has lost more, but it hasn't worked out well for either of them because the, the proceeds of that trade for the Red Sox are pretty much already gone, you
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B
know, and, and blossom and blossoming elsewhere, you know.
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A
Yeah. In, in Kyle Harrison's case. Yeah.
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B
And then Tibbs has seen his stock rise too.
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A
Yeah.
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B
As a prospect. So.
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A
And then the Giants have Raphael Devers, which is.
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B
Right.
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A
Ideal either, I guess, because he is still about a league average hitter, which is not going to cut it for a guy who's not really giving you much else and also is making the money that he's making. So.
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B
But, but the good news is that he signed through 2033.
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A
Boy. Yeah, that's not great.
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B
Such a long time.
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A
At least he wore a pride night cap. I assume we would have heard about it if we. So that's good. Yeah, that's a little win. Yeah, he's got that going for him. Yeah. But I, I guess if you had to say, like, which side would be more likely to. To take it back or. Or want to undo it or. Or less likely to want to undo it. I don't think the Red Sox would want him back because. Yeah, really, like they would not be any better if they had him is the thing. It's not like the Red Sox couldn't use some offense. They certainly could but he has not provided that for San Francisco lately. So if he were on the Red Sox right now, they would not necessarily be better off. They would just be paying a lot more for a still lackluster offense.
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B
So, yeah, I think that if I were having to take one side of that deal, I'd still. Oh, God, it feels bad to say, but I'd still rather be the club shipping them out.
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A
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. If the Red Sox have Contreras now, they might not have Contreras if they had Devers.
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B
And look, it's not to say that they have managed to do a whole lot with that savings yet, necessarily, but the fact that they were able to ship out like, 250 million, you know, and who knows. Who knows what the future holds? Maybe, you know, maybe Devers is able to.
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A
Course.
- [31:44]
B
Correct. Maybe he is able to start hitting like something approaching his old self. You know, we. We saw that once he was. Oh, God, he did a hit worse once he got to San Francisco. That's right. Oh, I had it backwards in my memory, Ben. It's. It's not good. It's a. It's just a bad situation. And so as much as I think that they. They being the Red Sox, maybe were too quick to part with. With Harrison, like, it's just. Yeah, it looks bad. Yeah, it looks bad. And, and, you know, they. They being the Red Sox were, you know, a little. They were. They were quick on the trigger with Tibs, too. Right. Like, he's not a Red Sock. He's a Dodger now. And, and a pretty good one. You know, he was like a. He wasn't a top 100 guy for us preseason, but he was a pick to click. And he's hitting well in AAA. He's got 159 WRC plus. So you have two notable young players who have gotten better elsewhere, and you're kind of of stuck with this giant contract that you're not going to be able to move. So. I don't know, you better hope you can play better because you're just in it until 2033. That's such a long time. Yeah. I wonder what. I wonder how well we'll all be doing in that year, you know?
- [33:16]
A
Yeah. How. How will for us?
- [33:19]
B
Yeah, maybe. Wouldn't it be nice if the worst thing that was happening in 2033 was. Was Rafael Devers not playing well for the Giants.
- [33:28]
A
That would be nice. Yeah.
- [33:29]
B
You know, if. If that ends up being the state of the world, then maybe the Giants say, yeah, this was a Bad trade. But, like, look at the utopia we've come to live in.
- [33:38]
A
On the bright side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or maybe the sole remaining player the Red Sox acquired for Devers, Jose Baio, maybe not to be confused with Brian Baio. Maybe he'll suddenly blossom. He's. He's in a ball right now, which is great when you're 21, but he's pitching. Okay. So maybe he'll salvage this thing. But, yeah, really, just getting out from under the contract.
- [34:02]
B
Yeah, it's.
- [34:03]
A
It's kind of a win from the Red Sox perspective, sadly. And Wilson Contreras is just. He's raking. He's been the best hitters in baseball, but, yeah, Posey described Des as a dude when they acquired him, and he has not been a dude. He was. He was hitting like a dude in May, but then he has cooled off again in June. So it was not just a slow start, sadly, anyway. Yeah, rough. That's. That's one of those. That neither side really doesn't reflect particularly well on either side. Okay. Anyway, that was a digression. I was thinking about the trade deadline, because this season has been kind of confusing when it comes to the teams that have been good and the teams that have been bad. And so it stands to reason that the trade deadline would also be kind of confusing just because it's hard to figure some of these teams, and are they contenders, and is it too late for them, and what do they do? And so when you have a hard time evaluating these teams and you have a lot of teams that have surprised us in one direction or the other. Well, at the trade deadline, you do have to define yourself sort of. Or you have to even sort of sitting it out is one way of defining yourself. And so there are a lot of teams that, hey, okay, the Cardinals, are they good? Is this real? The White Sox, are they good? Is this real? They're ahead of schedule. Are they going to lean into this? Are they going to double down and say, yeah, we believe and we're going for it? If you're the Mets, if you're the Tigers, if you're some of the other disappointing teams, I guess the Phillies have kind of righted the ship, but, you know, there are some teams there that were expected to be good that have not been. And so do you cut bait? Do you decide to sell? They're just a lot of teams kind of in that middle ground where it's. They will have to pick a lean now. They. They have plenty of time to pick a lane, is the thing is they still have. Because the trade deadline is so late. Because mid June. They don't have to decide right now unless they do want to make a Dever style deal, a potential impact acquisition. Because that's the other thing with the deadline being this late, you're not getting as much benefit time. Yeah. So you're not even getting two months really. So if you do want to make a move then it does behoove you to make a deal in advance of the deadline. Even though team typically procrastinate. So yeah, teams will have to kind of pick a side or. Or teams that are sort of like the Pirates, you know, is there enough there? Can. Can they make a run? The A's just hovering right around 500. Those two teams or someone like the Blue Jays or the Diamondbacks, like there are just a lot of teams there that are in that bucket or the Cubs who've been bad after being so good. It's just like a ton of teams in that range where not only are there records or the Marlins who have been coming on lately, they're 500 now. The Rangers have picked things up. They are a game below 500 as we speak here on Monday. Just ton of teams in that. In that no man's lands. So I am kind of curious to see whether that leads to a dud of a deadline or just like everyone wants to buy or whether the wheat will have separated from the chaff somewhat by the time we get to the deadline. I don't know how will this shake out?
- [37:33]
B
It makes me think that we might be in for a deadline where like a lot of relievers move around. Well, yeah, you know, it strikes you as the kind of deadline where you might have a lot of teams that are, you know, maybe simultaneously adding and subtracting. I imagine we'll have some activity but the. The number of guys who move and are like real impact players, it strikes me as likely to be low. I think that the Tigers are going to need to make a decision sooner rather than later about what they want to do with school. Because if you're. And you know his. He made his first start back, it didn't go great. Although weirdly that game ended up going worse for the Guardians because of the injuries that they sustained in the course of it. Including Jose Ramirez.
- [38:26]
A
Yeah.
- [38:26]
B
Broke the hammate in his left hand. Will need surgery. Yeah. And Chase the lotter got danged again because it's a day that ends in y. They don't know how serious his injury is. I don't mean to sound cavalier about it. It's just the poor guy's always hurt, so. Yeah, but, you know, Skubal wasn't as dominant and sharp as he could be. His velocity was intact. So, you know, I think that's a positive indicator that he's at least back from a stuff perspective. Even if, you know, working out the. The precision isn't quite done yet. But it's. It's a weird. It's a weird choice to have to make because the AL sucks. You know, you have so many teams that are below.500. You have. You know, I still think that the Central is a winnable division because the Guardians are more vulnerable now. They've been sort of tumbling down the standings. The White Sox know a few defense don't have the pitching to sustain this. So, you know, I think you can make a run at them in a serious way. Surely you think you're better than the Twins. No offense to the Twins, but it's. It's just. It's winnable potentially. But also you're gonna get so much more in prospect return if you ship him out soon. So I don't know. They have to decide, like, they have to decide how decisive to be. You know what I mean? Because, like, the decision to move him, once you do that, then you should just assess, like, who else is. Who else is movable for us right now. Because if you move Scubal, you may as well move everyone who's on an expiring contract and has some value. Right. You're just restocking for next year. Yeah. And the future after that. So I think that he has the potential to be the single most impactful player who moves, and he might not move at all. Of course, we've had years where we've said that, and we're like, yeah, it's going to be a quiet deadline. Like, there's a lot of teams clustered around 500, and then there's a ton of activity, some of which is more meaningful in terms of the scale of the trade. Either, you know, the guy shipping out or the return or both. I don't know. I don't know what to expect. I think that everyone in the NL who's remotely good is going to want to add, and everyone in the AL is going to be like, aren't we so close to a playoff spot, though, that it might again be a bunch of, like, relievers. Could be a very reliever. Heavy deadline.
- [40:46]
A
Yeah. But, yeah, and the White Sox are calling up some prospects, and that's always exciting when you can. It's like gauge jump has pitched pretty well for the A's lately. They need pitching. It's nice when you can supply some internally. And so the White Sox, you know, they called up Braden Montgomery, of course, but also they've got some arms. And, and will that be in enough? I don't know. But. But yeah, they've gone from. On our preview, when we were talking about some of the signings they made over the off season. Hey, are. Are they getting these guys so that they can flip them at the deadline? Is that the plan? Or do they actually feel so frisky and feisty that they think they can make a run at it? And they're making a run at it, and I'm certainly enjoying it. And, and it's not a. A fluke in terms of the underlying stats, run differential and everything. Can they keep it up? I don't know. But, yeah, they get Murakami back. It's just. It's a, a fun time to watch this team. So I'd like to see them add, because I do think it is a. A pretty winnable division. Yeah. And, and winnable wild cards, too. So. Yes, they have to decide how decisive to be. They kind of just drop in to see what condition their condition is in and, and see how they do. Yeah. So, yeah, it's going to be fun to follow. And I kind of doubt that there will be that much separation among teams even in another month and a half or whatever it is, just because there's a lot of mediocrity here or just look like The Nationals are two games over.500 right now.
- [42:15]
B
Right.
- [42:16]
A
You know, like there are just a ton of teams in that range, some of which were expected to be good and contend. Teams like the Blue Jays, obviously, and then teams that no one really saw coming and figured it would be bad and have been good. So this will be. This will be quite a deadline. And just as we were talking about this, I see the Ken Rosenthal tweet, Giants testing waters on potential trades. Mentions that they might have difficulty moving Rafael Devers. Yeah, it seems. Seems doubtful that they could do that. However, if they do want to move a few pitchers, I guess we could suggest some. So we will discuss what happened on Friday, which was Pride Night in San Francisco, and the Giants pitchers who appeared in that game, or four of the five, they took a cue from Clayton Kershaw and they did not Blake Trinen. And. Well, yeah, I guess that's true. Lately. I was trying to think like, did Kershaw start this? And he didn't Because I had forgotten this, but Nick Ahmed did this a couple years ago with the, the Genesis quote, the Bible verse. Because Kershaw, I thought maybe he had started the, the writing the, the verse on there and maybe he helped popularize that because obviously he's very visible and a prominent player in the game.
- [43:44]
B
Game.
- [43:44]
A
But obviously this sort of demonstration has been going on for some time. And yes, Blake Trine and this time he just refused to wear the Pride Night cap. Right. I was thinking. Because he pulled a raise. Right? Jason, Adam and yeah, it was those five. Yeah, Jason, Adam, Jalen Beaks, Brooks Rayleigh, Jeffrey Springs, Ryan Thompson, all those raised guys who removed the logo from their Pride Night caps or jerseys or whatever that was back in 2022. I was thinking like, why is it always pitchers? What's, what's happening with pitchers? But it's not always pitchers, I guess because there was Nick Ahmed and then I think also Alex call Alex this year did not wear the cap along with Trinen.
- [44:25]
B
So yeah, and I think in the Giants contingent they maybe had a position player or two, if I'm remembering correctly.
- [44:33]
A
So well, this, it's, it's more visible obviously when it is a picture just because the camera is on them. And so if you see something scrawled on their cap, then it's going to be unavoidable because yeah, they're, they're the stars when they're in the game. So it was, it was a sad display and I guess it was. So Sam Henches was the one who did not wear the cap. Right. But didn't, didn't write anything on the cap. And then the other guys who put the Genesis verse on there, it was Landon Roop who started the game, J.T. brubaker and Ryan Walker. And they all did the Take back the rainbow movement. Genesis verse, which is this idea of, hey, you can't have the rainbow, we want the rainbow, the rainbow's ours. God gave us the rainbow. And in there explanations for this, they all just said, oh, no hatred, you know, we don't hate anyone, but we, we disagree with it, we don't support it, we're religious and thus we are not going along with the rest of the team in doing this. And there was, you know, wishy washy statements from, from all involved who were wearing the caps. Right. And you know, it was, there was a statement from the team and it was, you know, it was basically just like they can choose to do what they want to do, which was pretty much what Tony Botello said also just you know, up to the individual. Right. And Logan Webb, who, you know, didn't do a demonstration himself, but he. He basically just said, like, you know, it's. People can do what they want to do in the clubhouse. It's not divisive. Right. Because he was asked if this was going to be a source of some division in the clubhouse, and he said no. And. And I doubt it will be, frankly. I'm sure he's right about that. The Giants statement was the San Francisco Giants are proud to support Pride night and the LGBTQ+ community. Baseball should be a place where everyone feels welcome, respected, and valued. We also respect that individuals may make personal choices about participating in team activations. I hate that word activations. It's not the worst thing about this, but it's up there. We understand the choice by individual players has caused pain and anger to many in the LGBTQ community, and we are sorry for that. Those choices do not change our organization's commitment to inclusion, belonging, and creating a welcoming environment for all. All remain grateful to our fans, partners, employees, players and coaches who help make Pride Night a meaningful celebration.
- [47:29]
B
Yeah.
- [47:30]
A
And, yeah, Vitello's line was, when asked was whether this was discussed beforehand. He said, not really. I mean, just kind of a general knowledge of the individuals have the freedom to do what they think is best. And yeah, I. I think that. I think it was henches who said that. They had talked about it in the clubhouse for a while leading up to this, and so obviously it was a matter of some discussion. But, yeah, there was no kind of team policy or decision here. It was just to each his own, basically. And yeah, the Logan Webb quote that I was alluding to, he was saying, you can't force anybody. They're grown ups. They can make their own decisions. And was asked about the division. No, no, no. There's a lot of guys in here that have their personal values and beliefs. It's a big league clubhouse. You've got guys from different countries, different areas. I grew up in a different place than, say, Landon than a lot of guys. I have different feelings. It will not divide the clubhouse at all. At the end of the day, I just want to win baseball games. Something that the Giants have not done a lot of, including that game. Game. Sometimes those sort of things take away from that. That's important to me. Hopefully today we can get back to winning baseball games. So, yeah, that's what happened.
- [48:50]
B
And I have to correct myself. They did not, I believe, have a position player who participated. For some, for some reason, I thought they did, yeah.
- [48:58]
A
Just. Just the pitchers. I don't know. I don't know why it's so pitcher centric. It's odd.
- [49:03]
B
I'm. I'm fairly animated about this one and we've talked about sort of different versions of this same quote unquote protest in the past. So I don't need to rehash all of that. I'll just say, like, it's time for the league to make a decision about this stuff. And if these guys want to have what they view to be a principled stance that isn't hateful, mind you, just invalidating a major part of the community's understanding of themselves, they should go on the restricted list, like, that's it. Like, we need to be done with this stuff. There is clearly a line that the league would draw if the players in question decided to express other values. I can't imagine, for instance, the league, or the Giants for that matter, having any patience for a player who, say, refused to wear 42 on Jackie Robinson Day. They draw a line there, right? They should draw a line here, too. These events are about celebrating the shared humanity and dignity of disadvantaged communities. Sometimes they're about celebrating communities where the. Maybe the dominant narrative around the event isn't one of historic disadvantage. But. But that's the purpose here. And I understand that Pride events can get. Sometimes Pride events get criticized from a left leaning perspective, right? As capitalism exploiting an understandable desire on the part of the LGBTQ community to find fellowship and acceptance in the ballpark, but that's what these events are about. They're about selling hats, sure, but they're about that too. They're about the part of the Giant statement that I do agree with, which is making the ballpark a place that is safe for everyone, that is able to be enjoyed by everyone. And if Landon Rube has a problem with that, then he should go on the restricted list and sacrifice a game. Check. Okay. Put your money where your mouth is. This, I'm so tired of this mealy mouthed garbage on the part of these guys. I'd have more respect for it in a weird way if they were willing to be bigoted with their whole chests. Right? I think if you ask Blake Tranon about it, he might accommodate you on that score because he strikes me as a true believer in any number of ways. But, you know, the notion that they are going to be able to engage in protest, which is what they are doing, even if they refuse to, to use that specific language because they want to be able to express their beliefs, but not have anybody be mad at them. Then sacrifice something. Sacrifice something, Landon, if it matters that much to you, then tell your team that you are willing to put your money where your mouth is. Put them on the restricted list. Don't have them at the ballpark that night. Like, we need to draw a line around this stuff. At the end of the day, they're at work. They're in a workplace. If they were accountants and they tried to pull this kind of stuff at work, they'd get hauled into hr, right? We wouldn't. We wouldn't tolerate this stuff. And we clearly, like I said, would draw lines around other events at the ballpark. And I know that a lot of the comparison that gets made online is like, well, what if one of, you know, the liberal players in the league, you know, however many of them there are, decided that, you know, they are pacifists, they're not going to support foreign wars, and so they are going to, you know, have some sort of Bible verse or commentary on their cap on Military Appreciation Night or Veterans Day or Memorial Day. There are so many of these days where we are saluting the armed services. And I don't think you even need to make that kind of equivalence. Right. I think it's fine for the league to say, look, we have a certain number of events in our ballpark in a given year that are demographically oriented, right? There to celebrate Pride Night, there to celebrate, you know, Mexican Heritage Night or Italian Heritage Night, to pick a group of whites, right? They're there to celebrate and uplift one of the communities that make up our broader community of fans. I think it's fine for the league to say that you don't get to engage in protest behavior on those nights, right? On nights that are about demographic characteristics that are immutable to the individual. And if you're doing that, then you don't get to come to the ballpark that night. You don't get to be at work, and you don't get to be compensated for it.
- [54:00]
A
It.
- [54:01]
B
So that's where I'm at on this stuff. And if they're going to insist on doing this, at least have the courage of your convictions to articulate in terms that we all understand, even if you aren't willing to say it, are about exclusion, are about sort of contesting these incredibly important aspects of a person's life and understanding of themselves. Right? I don't like the Catholic Church's stance on abortion, but at least they're opposed to the death penalty, too, right? There's a consistency to it. There is a willingness to be on the line about it. I think they're wrong about the abortion piece, but they're, you know, they're embracing their understanding of the world. If Landon Roop doesn't think that his understanding of the world is hateful, someone needs to educate him to the contrary, because that's what it this. He might dress it up, he might make it about, you know, the rainbow and it's this covenant with mankind. But he invited people. When asked what he would say in response to someone who thinks that his behavior is disparaging to the LGBTQ community, what would he inspire? What would he tell them to do? And he told them that they should read the Bible. So you're proselytizing Landon, like, that's your understanding of this. And the reason you want them to read the Bible is because you're hoping that they'll look in there and spot something and go, ah, I was wrong all along. I'm not gay, actually. And that's just not how it works.
- [55:34]
A
Well, we've been here before. Yeah. And we'll probably be here again because this keeps recurring. And as long as the policy stays the same. And, yeah, obviously, you know, he could put this Bible verse on his cap any night if he wanted to, but they choose this night, obviously, that's to make a certain statement. And when Roop said, there's no hate at all, it's just what I stand for and what I stand on. I believe in God, and, yeah, that's me. Obviously, belief in God is not. It's not a prerequisite that. That you not support LGBTQ people. So, you know, that's one interpretation of that belief. And he did say, yes, first of all, as a believer, I would push them to read the Bible. I think God has blessed me in so many ways, and I don't think I'd be here right now if it wasn't for him.
- [56:22]
B
Couldn't bless you with a good start.
- [56:24]
A
Yeah, that's true. There's no hate at all. We live in a country where you're welcome to believe what you want. And that's true.
- [56:31]
B
That's true.
- [56:31]
A
He can believe what he wants. He's welcome to, and everyone else will judge him accordingly. Now, the. The question is, then, can you display what you want? This is not necessarily a free speech issue. It's a private business. Right. You can set your policies. Teams have uniforms. You have to wear the uniform.
- [56:53]
B
Right.
- [56:55]
A
It's uniform. That's the goal. That's why it's Called a uniform. There are rules.
- [56:58]
B
Sorry to interrupt you, but, like, this is the part of Tony's statement that is completely ridiculous. It's like, sorry, I'm to just swear. What the are you talking about, man? Like, you mean to tell me that if a guy walked in and decided that he was going to wear a different jersey than the rest of the. The club that night, that you'd be like, yeah, you know, like, guys are being dudes. They're expressing themselves. No, you tell him to go back to the locker room, put his. His actual jersey on. What are you talking about? Stop pretending this is a limitless, free. Like, free environment. That's not what it is. It's a workplace that has uniform Forbes.
- [57:31]
A
Yeah, There are rules that prevent you doing this sort of thing. If you wanted to just stick to the letter of the law and say they can't do this because of this rule, you could point to language in the rule book that says everyone has to wear the same thing. And if you wanted to have some penalty associated with it, you could. There was also, I think, what Henches said. He said, I grew up. It was more of a religious belief. Belief. I grew up as a Christian. I've grown in my faith. There wasn't any hatred behind it. It's just something that I feel like I was forced to support when I don't morally support it. And then reiterated there wasn't hatred behind it. That's misinterpreted. I don't hate the LGBTQ community. Something I believe and talk with teammates and family, and they support it. There was no intentional hate. He said, that's interesting. We have these hats, and we're supposed to wear them if we support it. If we don't, then you don't have to wear them. We have that choice. Choice. Just like they have their choices, too. So he's likening, I guess, being gay or queer or whatever, to just the choice to wear a cap and understand that as humans, we all have choices that we can choose to do and do whatever we want, but it's not something I support. At the end of the day, I want the message heard that there's no hatred. Okay, so what are you saying? I mean, you know, I guess he's saying, like, I don't want to stone them or something, like, they shouldn't be put to death. Death or whatever. But he's just. In saying we. I don't morally support it. He's. He's making it sound as if it's just, oh, it's a Personal choice, you know, to be gay or not gay or whatever. And I think they made the wrong choice. I don't support it. You know, you can't just kind of casually not support it. It's just something that is kind of core to a person's identity. And so if you just say I don't support it or I disagree with it, but. But no hate, you know, to each their own. Well, it just doesn't work that way because when it's not liking polka dots, right, It's. It's not a fashion choice of wearing a pride night cap or not. It's just. It's something that is so essential to someone's identity that when you say you don't support that, you are invalidating them as a person basically. So you can't really walk that line. And you know, again, like they could just come out at and say that, but they always try to couch it in no hate, you know, but. But it is kind of in inherently there is some level of. Even if you're not like feeling furious or something, it's just like there is kind of an inherent hate to it or intolerance to it. And so when it comes to the. The caps and everything, I mean, you know, making it compulsory on the one hand, like if these players just had to kind of go along with it, it would be a hollow gesture, obviously. Like if. If they don't support it and they're just wearing a cap because they have to, well, you know, there's not much actual support there. But it is supportive in the sense
- [60:29]
B
that the problem make it about them. That's the difference.
- [60:33]
A
The real problem with this is the state of affairs is that, yeah, this is all anyone has been talking about. This has been one of the biggest stories in baseball for days now. And it ends up doing the opposite of what a pride night is designed to do, which is to say, hey, we see you and we support you and you're welcome. And you know, I guess we could just concentrate on the fact that most of the players wore the cap and were supportive, but inevitably it ends up being about the few who don't. And that has been the case over and over again. And then that just reinforces the idea that there is a lot of homophobia in baseball and elsewhere, but specifically baseball, and. And these guys kind of become the avatar for that. So it really ends up backfiring or, or sending the wrong signal. And so I guess there, yeah, there are two ways that you could handle this. One is, as you said, you just Just make it an ironclad policy. And if you do want to opt out of it, then you just. You can't be active, you can't be in uniform if you won't wear the uniform that everyone else is wearing. That's one way to do it. Another way to do it is to just not do this anymore. You know, still have Pride nights, but not have the compulsory cap portion of it, which I guess came in in 2021, I think was when the Giants added the. The cap portion. So, you know, you could say, well, guys obviously have different beliefs about this, and instead of sort of foregrounding the guys who opt out because. Because even if you had to put them on the restricted list or something, that would still be a big story, right? It would still sort of reinforce the idea that there is a lot of resistance. Instance, if you had a Pride night now, you know, it feels like kind of a concession. It feels like letting them win in a way. And maybe it is. Yeah. You know, if you just. If you do it just to avoid any controversy or backlash or anything, then, yeah, it is sort of surrendering. And, you know, we've seen that in other leagues like the NHL and the NHL briefly banned any sort of display, like banned pride tape. And then. And there was a backlash to that and they said, okay, you can wear it. We're not going to prevent people from wearing these things. You know, it could be like that where it's just, hey, if you want to show your support, you can and should. Kind of like, you know, some players do. I mean, woke King Spencer Strider, right, He went to an event. He didn't have to go to an event, but that's, you know, above and beyond, not just wearing the cap, but actually really demonstrating your support and inclusiveness and, and welcoming people. And there aren't a lot of folks in MLB who, who take that step, really, but there are some. And so I guess you could just say, like, you know, why court controversy like this? You could have your. Your Pride Night events and just, you know, if there are people who don't support it, you'd never know about it. Maybe. I mean, who knows? These guys very may well have just like put the verse on their cap anyway because it was Pride night. So maybe even if you didn't compel them to wear the cap, they would still just object to the event itself. Who knows? But that's a little less likely. So I don't know. Like, that does feel kind of like the coward's way out or kind of like Letting this vocal subset of prejudiced people set the policy for everyone. One, which is bad. This is also not ideal. So, you know, it's like you can't force people to think a certain way and believe a certain way. Obviously, they're right about that. So as long as you're going to have some holdouts, I don't know, I just. This is not good. It's not great that this becomes the headline.
- [64:34]
B
Yeah, I have a couple of thoughts.
- [64:36]
A
Yeah.
- [64:37]
B
The first of them is, I'm reminded of Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek First Contact, discussing the strategy of sacrificing whole worlds to the Borg. And we have to say the line must be drawn here, this far, no further. Which is sort of a kitschy way of getting at it, but I think expresses my sentiment well. I think that one of the things, things that the last couple of years of American life, and what an optimistic way of describing that the last decade of American life has taught me is that, boy, I sure didn't appreciate the value of quiet bigots before. Part of what these events are trying to do is establish that, you know, the ballpark is for everyone. That the Dodgers or the Giants or the Mariners or the Diamondbacks or whomever see the value in this community and want them to feel like they are part of an integrated part of the fan base. Right. That there's a place for them. I think another, maybe more subtle thing that they do is establish in fans an institutional expectation of the club, which is to say, you will be safe here, you will be safe in this ballpark. If you are holding hands with your same sex partner, if you are yourself wearing a pride hat, if you have, you know, short hair and a septum piercing, whatever the expression of it is, you will be safe here. And so if you concede the validity of this perspective in your players, if you fall back, right, and you say, look, the controversy, the, you know, the back and forth, it's not worth it. We're just inviting them to say bad things next year. No rainbows on the hat. One of the things you're communicating to your fan base is our support of you is contingent and your safety here might be too. And I think that they have that. When you are a gathering place for the community, you have an obligation to your fans to make them feel safe there. And you have a particular obligation to do that when they are part of a demographic that historically has not been safe there. And so I think it's important for teams to hold the line, not only because of the message of inclusivity, not only because they should establish an expectation that their players will be ambassadors of the team to the community, understood broadly, but because there are people who are going to those games who right now feel less safe than they did before. And that will make their experience of that will be exacerbated by institutional retrenchment. And I agree with you. It sucks that even if the course of action was okay, if you can't be quiet about your displeasure. Because you're right, Landon Rip is entitled to believe whatever he wants to believe. He is entitled to think whatever he wants to think and he's entitled to say stuff about it. It I have to concede that that doesn't mean that he can't suffer consequences from his employer for expressing those views. I have no interest in trying to use. Well, not that I have no interest. I am skeptical of the ability of baseball as an institution to be an effective vehicle and vector for most of these guys to find their way toward what. What I understand to be a very Christian sense of love toward their fellow people. But I do have confidence in the ability of Major League Baseball and its clubs to use the threat of a game check to get them to shut the hell up. And if he has the courage of his convictions and he wants to say something about it after the fact, well, he can do that. And we'll be able to draw, you know, conclusions about these guys going on restricted list in advance of a Pride event will be able to kind of guess at what's going on in much the same way that we could use the vaccines.
- [69:09]
A
Right?
- [69:09]
B
Exactly. Yeah, right. But a couple of weeks ago, when Trinen made his statement earlier that day, the Dodgers unveiled a permanent exhibition to honor Billy Bean and Glenn Burke. That's a beautiful thing. It's at Dodger Stadium. It's going to stay there in perpetuity. It honors the legacy of those men. It got at least partially overshadowed because Blake Trinen decided that that day needed to be about him. And I think that that is a real shame because I think their decision to honor Burke and Bean. And by the way, I am noticing that in the video that appeals on the MLB.com story about this, they have Billy Bean, as in the A's executive in the video sometime. It's right in the headline.
- [70:00]
A
But.
- [70:01]
B
But to Anyone listening from MLB.com, you might want to update the macros on that video because as far as I know, Billy Bean is a straight man, at least the one who's still alive. I think it suggests an Understanding on the part of the team of the import of those men's legacy in the game. And I think that Blake Trinen's decision to refuse to wear the hat suggests we still have a lot of work to do. And I think we need to be pushing forward with that work rather than allowing a couple of small minded men to redefine a night that means a lot to a lot of people. And that I think is important because how do, how do you go then to the Rangers, the lone holdout, and say at some point, hey, you have to get in line on this if you're gonna sort of kowtow to Blake Trinen. To Blake Trine. To be clear, the quality of the player shouldn't matter here, right? You know, like if tomorrow. And I don't think he would do this, so I don't even want to like tarnish him with the suggestion. But like if tomorrow Shohei came out and was like, I'm not wearing the pride hat next year, I think there should be consequences for him too. So it, the, the quality of the player shouldn't matter. I would imagine if I were a Dodgers fan, I might like there to be roster consequences for Blake Trident because then maybe Dave can't fall in love with him in October. But I just, I think that the league and its teams need to decide to take this seriously and to actually have there be consequences because we require a lot of players. We require a lot of players when they might not want to do it. But we understand that part of being a Major League Baseball player is being an ambassador for your club. And there have, you know, there have been times when the league has said, hey, this is crossing a line for us. I know that we've seen some retrenchment on it in recent years, but the league said, hey, you can't make your rookies dress up as women as part of Hayes. We don't have a. There's no place for that. Women work for MLB clubs, women root for MLB teams. You are not honoring them. You are using them as a degraded version of masculinity to haze rookies. That's a no go for us. So the league is willing to do this stuff. You know, the fact that it intersects with religion is what makes people antsy. But I would just say that your private religious belief does not invalidate the humanity of other people. And if you think it does, that's a thought. Best kept it yourself.
- [72:51]
A
So, and it is a pretty powerful gesture to have the players wear these things on their uniforms. You know, it is one thing to just have a Pride Night event at all and signal some organizational support, but to have the players, the stars of the show, wear these things, that is a pretty tangible thing. And even if it's empty in some cases, even if it's hollow, if it's just guys going along with it, even if they don't feel so supportive, you know, it's. It's something. And it does, I think, hit differently when it is the guys just wearing that, as opposed to someone in the marketing department deciding to stage an event that they can probably sell some tickets to. And. And, you know, this probably became an even bigger deal than it might have otherwise because it was San Francisco. And not that it wasn't a big deal when the Reyes guys did this years ago, but being in San Francisco, it's a bigger deal because of the community there. And I understand that people come from different places and backgrounds and they get exposed to different things, and you develop different beliefs based on your upbringing and all the rest. I saw some people sharing in the wake of this, something former Giants pitcher Jeremy Affelt wrote, and this was in his memoir, which was published in 2013. But he talked about his evolution in thinking and, you know, this was more than a dozen years ago. Attitudes were a little bit different. But he wrote, I didn't leave my hotel room when we came to play the Giants or A's. I didn't want to go out or see anyone. 1. There was a profession of being wrong. I've come to that from a deep angle. I'll probably get a lot of flack from the church for it, but I believe I'm right. There's a chapter in there. This is him talking to the AP about his book. There's a chapter in there of me coming to San Francisco and being hesitant because I had homophobia and now I don't, which is funny. Makes it sound like, you know, some kind of disease you can contract, which I guess is not entirely inaccurate. But he had homophobia. Now, I don't. He was cured. I see more San Francisco as a city of love and a city of passion and compassion. It's unbelievable, this city, to see that and to have my heart change as a city I didn't ever want to come to, to a city that I'm so thankful I'm going to be a part of for a long time. It talks about that. For me, it was an awesome deal. So it is possible to have a certain perspective about it and then to mature and to grow and to learn and Maybe being in San Francisco was part of that for him because of what he saw and experience. And these guys, for whatever reason, have not had that same epiphany. Have not had that same conversion, you could even call it. And so I don't know, you know, what it is about FL that he was able to kind of confront that and, and realize and, and change. And these guys have not. But yeah, it is, it is not a, a good state of affairs. I think they do kind of have to pick a lane here and you know, if they were to pick a lane, given just the way the wind is blowing and everything, and maybe this will change. But if anything, I would expect them to, to take the way out of. We're not even going to have people do this anymore because it just leads to bad press and pr. But I think if they went the other way and said we're, we're actually going to hold you to this, they just. It does seem sort of untenable to do it this way and to have, yep. Every year be about the very, very small minority, you know, which fortunately it is. It's just, it's a handful of guys. But those handful of guys then really dominate the discourse about this. And maybe that's what they want. And you know, I'm sure they don't want the heat that comes with this, but, but maybe they want to, you know, get their views out there and they have. And yeah, it just, it does lead to it being the opposite of, of feeling supported when these guys views get highlighted and when no one else really in the game or in that clubhouse pushes back on it. And you know, I get being a co worker, being in a workplace, like, it sucks to have to expect their teammates to have to like, you know, say something like, you like the team team. If it's a team policy.
- [77:20]
B
Right.
- [77:21]
A
Then that takes the onus off of Web or whoever to. Or Vitello, who obviously is, you know,
- [77:28]
B
God forbid, the manager lead the clubhouse.
- [77:31]
A
Yeah. And you look at, you know, past Giants managers, Gabe Kapler for one, we're very supportive about all this. Like, you have to think that Vitello's presence here, I don't know his personal beliefs or whatever, but obviously, like, like he was pretty unwilling to take any sort of stand here in the way that even other managers have. So I don't know whether he explicitly or tacitly signaled that this was going to be fine with him, but you have to think that maybe that had something to do with it.
- [78:01]
B
Most of what I've Said here has been about like the relationship between the external community, external from the clubhouse, I mean the fan community, and how subsets of that community relate to the club, relate to their understanding of fandom, their understanding of their own safety. I think we'd be remiss if we didn't say that like there are other people that this communicates to and it's the not out baseball players that exist in affiliated ball. The notion that this isn't a message that is being very personally received by some number of pro players seems ridiculous to me. And that's another reason for the team to have some kind of a strict policy, because at some point we may well encounter an out active player on a major league roster. And how does this wash over that individual or individuals? How does this wash over, over the queer members of the Giant staff, front office, the folks who work in business affairs, the folks who work out at their affiliates.
- [79:16]
A
Right.
- [79:17]
B
You're again, you're in a workplace and some of what you have to do is establish what are your institutional norms around this stuff. And I understand it's a weird workplace and I understand that this is like a contested question within other American workplaces. But I don't know if you're voting the way I imagine people who feel compelled to do this vote. You just believe in at will employment anyway, so.
- [79:50]
A
Yeah, and the Giants had a minor leaguer a few years ago, Solomon Bates, who came out as gay after he was released by the organization, like at the same time, I think, you know, and said he wanted to open doors and everything and that's why he made the statement. But he didn't do it until he was out of the organization, until he was no longer a member of the Giants. And, and you know, might have been the case for any organization. But yeah, when, when. That's the history here. When someone in this very organization does not feel comfortable coming out publicly while they're a member of it.
- [80:27]
B
Also, just again, imagine you're an accountant and the guy in the cubicle next to you is like proselytizing at work. You'd be like, we're at work. You know, that's kind of weird to do, isn't it? To be at work and doing that. Now I bet Landon Roop would say, well, isn't Pride night proselytizing? And to, to that I would say, no, they're not trying to convert members to the cause. They're just trying to say we're here here and we're part of this community and we get to be Safe here. Fundamentally different project. Sorry.
- [81:00]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And it is, it's a weird workplace in so many ways. You know, the accountant doesn't have to wear a cap at all. You don't have to wear a uniform. I mean, you might have a dress code probably, but it's a little bit different. You're not a public figure, you know, so. Yeah. And so you, you know, probably you're not quite as subject to corporate said we have to wear this today or something. And maybe people would be bothered by that too do. Regardless of whether, you know, their beliefs were, were contradicted by it or something. But, but yeah, if, if people were to say, well, what if the Giants have a pretty right wing owner, right. Charles Johnson? What if he took it upon himself to say, okay, now we're going to have. I don't even know what the counter example would be, but some sort of, some sort of night that we wouldn't approve of and we wouldn't support. And what if the team instituted that? Well, would you change your tune then? And you'd say, well, the players shouldn't have to do it. Then they could just kind of conscientiously object because you think that is a moral stance. I mean, if there's a consistent policy that when the team has a uniform that you have to wear the uniform and the team came out with some sort of uniform that I would find extremely objectionable and they held players to that policy, I guess I would be okay with that if it were consistent.
- [82:24]
B
I get what you're saying.
- [82:25]
A
Players could. Yeah. I mean players could evaluate whether they want to play for that team and, and there'd be.
- [82:32]
B
You don't have to concede that point though.
- [82:34]
A
Right.
- [82:35]
B
Being a conservative isn't an immutable characteristic.
- [82:38]
A
Yeah.
- [82:39]
B
I mean, sometimes it feels stubborn to be clear, but it's, it, it's, it's not an immutable characteristic. Right. And I think this is the, this is where we kind of run afoul of, of it. We don't need to concede this point. Stop conceding it as, as protestable. Like if we in the state of California especially, like he couldn't say, I'm a conservative, so I'm not going to hire gay people. They're a protected class. Like, like, no, stop. You know what I mean? We don't have to concede it as protestable. I, and maybe I'm gonna fall outside the margins on this one, but not of you specifically, but just generally. But like it doesn't strike me as remotely contradictory or hypocritical to say, yeah, if someone is a pacifist and wants to write something on their cap, you know, imploring peace in the face case of Salute to Armed Services Night, I think that is a categorically different behavior than refusing to let Pride Night go unremarked upon. I just do. And I don't know if, you know, people are going to agree with me on that one, but I. I don't think that you should get to do weird nonsense with your hat on that day or Filipino Heritage Day or Italian Heritage Day day or Mexican Heritage Day or on Jackie Robinson Day. No, no.
- [84:07]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [84:08]
B
Draw the line. Be John Luke Picard.
- [84:11]
A
It's never, never a bad thing. No.
- [84:13]
B
Yeah, Very rarely. He was kind of, like, Moby Dicking it a little bit in that moment, and he was reminded that he should blow up the damn ship. But that doesn't apply to our situation, so I don't feel the need to really, to litigate that part of the speech.
- [84:29]
A
Okay. Yeah. And these pitchers would probably say they don't think that it is immutable, but you know what? Some people are wrong.
- [84:38]
B
So we should just be more comfortable telling people when they're wrong. You know, that's the thing about it. You can think whatever you want, Landon. You can think it quietly. You know, you got a whole life outside of the ballpark. You can. You can think that thought out there as loudly as you want to. You're at work. Put on the hat. We would have been spared so much trouble if the Flyers had just told Ivan Provorov. Guess what, buddy? That's the jersey. Go warm up.
- [85:05]
A
All right, well, I will be without you again next time, but I know
- [85:10]
B
I'll have another hole in my face.
- [85:12]
A
Yeah, I know. Good luck. Weird with that. Yes, I know people would probably like to hear you podcast after having a wisdom tooth removed. And, well, we are set to record
- [85:23]
B
on Wednesday, so who knows what I might sound like, but I will probably not be on painkillers by then. So.
- [85:31]
A
Sorry, everyone. Yeah, you don't get to hear Meg hopped up on painkillers. Not this time, at least.
- [85:36]
B
Not this time.
- [85:37]
A
Yeah. You know, I. I have thought, because I was reading this piece at Sports Business Journal about how teams are starting games earlier. You know, how we just. We see a lot of, like, 640 starts and.
- [85:49]
B
We do.
- [85:50]
A
Yeah. And I like that. Yeah, it's a concerted effort, and the start times are earlier than ever. And they had data in here about the percentage of games that start before 7 or 7:05, whatever the standard used to be. And they seem to find that fans prefer that it starts a little earlier. Even in the pitch clock era, when the games go faster, they still like getting out of there a little earlier. And I think that's good. And it certainly seems to have helped attendance, which is up a little bit. Again, it is a difference because, yeah, I mean, it was always 7:10, 7 05. And sometimes it's a little too early. Like the, the Guardians tried some six tens and that was a little too early because, you know, people got to get there from work and so, yeah,
- [86:36]
B
you got to let people get out of work.
- [86:38]
A
Yeah, it seems like maybe six forties the sweet spot. And I think this is all good. However, as a night owl, I feel like this is biased against me because I used to enjoy when games were on really late and now they never are anymore. And I think it's for the good of the game and for most fans, and so I will defer to them. But it does kind of make me sad when the games are over so early, just because between these earlier start times and the pitch clock and the Zombie runner and all the stuff, there's just. I used to be able to count on those west coast games would keep me company late at night when I was burning the 1am oil. I could just, you know, like there were games that were going often and now that's just not the case. And it's just, it's a little bit sad every night when you have a full slate and then the last game goes out and you're, you're bereft of baseball until the next day. And, you know, it used to be a nice bit of background as I was working or whatever late at night, and now I can't count on baseball to keep me company anymore during those hours. So I have personally lost something in the equation here.
- [87:54]
B
I couldn't believe how long those NBA Finals games were. Yeah, I was like, where's our pitch clock? My God, this is just, this is going on and on and on.
- [88:05]
A
Oh yeah. And they, they need to do something about late in the games and the fouling and everything. But that's, that's a, an ongoing conversation. But I just know my fellow nocturnal types out there and even when I was a kid, like, I would still be kind of a night owl, but not to this extent. And just to be able to put a game on the radio or something if, if the Yankees were on the west coast on a West coast trip, I used to enjoy that. Even if I couldn't stay up to see the end of the game, I could kind of put it on the radio and. And have it be my lullaby, my baseball lullaby. So I miss it. I can't. I can't dispute that it's good, but. Yeah. Through this season, through May 28, 76% of weekday games had started before 7pm wow. Which is. Yeah, that's a lot. And they say they'll probably. That percentage will decline as the season goes on, but even in 2021 it was like 42% and then in 2024 it was 66%. So, yeah, it's like two thirds of games, if not more, are starting pre 7 now and. And those suckers are going to be over before. Before 10 in most cases. And so what am I going to watch? What am I going to listen to? Won't anyone think of the. The nocturnal fence? We're out there. There are dozens of us. We need something to watch and listen to in the middle of the night, too.
- [89:28]
B
I was going to suggest something, but then I realized that it's an Apple show. So you've already watched it? In all likelihood. I watched the first episode of Widow's Bay. What a fun time that was.
- [89:37]
A
Oh, great show. Yeah.
- [89:38]
B
I'm so excited. I was like, this is going to scare me so bad. I'm going to have weird dreams. But this is a great ride.
- [89:45]
A
It is good. Yeah.
- [89:46]
B
I hope that I. I hope I articulated myself okay on the Pride Night stuff. I think the John Luke Picard comparison is apt. Even if I didn't know what a Charizard was evolutionary earlier. Earlier in the. I just thought that there was like another guy after him. And apparently, according to the Pokedex, there is so, you know, like a special evolution. I don't know if he's a shiny, though. What are the. You know what I mean? Anyway, requests for us.
- [90:16]
A
Meg learns about Pokemon Pod.
- [90:17]
B
I learned about Pokemon.
- [90:18]
A
Yeah. There are multiple mega evolutions of Charizard, I think.
- [90:22]
B
Okay, so see, so. And I. Those I don't need. I just like, let him be a. A flying, flaming flame type. You know, like a. A fire. Fire type. That's what it's called. Hey, everyone, Happy Pride. We love you.
- [90:35]
A
Indeed we do. And I hope that this podcast at least can be an inclusive, welcoming, hospitable baseball place. In our Facebook group, we keep the rainbow banner up year round because said supportiveness is not confined to June, by the way. I guess we can conclusively. Giant's thrusting celebration didn't exactly signal acceptance. Granted, it was different guys doing the thrusting and protesting Pride night. Don't know if Landon Roop had thoughts on his teammates home erotic victory display, but seems safe to say that the thrusts were at best a neutral statement vis a vis sexual identity, though. Speaking of statements, after we finished recording MLB gave a statement to outsports the quote from Pat Courtney, MLB's chief communications officer. The writing on the cap violates our rules and consistent with normal practice, we have warned the players about future violations, which honestly is more than I was expecting to hear. It's a slap on the wrist if that. But still a public statement. That's something. Pleasant surprise. Now I guess what they do is they issue a warning to the player and then the second offense. Maybe there's a fine or something. I suppose that could be why Blake Trinen was not wearing the cap. Instead of writing something on the cap, though, you'd think that could be a violation too. Anyway, if MLB is serious about this, it should have warned all the players preemptively. I wonder whether Kershaw got this warning too, but it really should be a send a memo around now. Hey, don't do this. As opposed to waiting for someone to do it and then saying hey, don't do that again. Still, it's more than I expected because it would have been easy for them to no comment or not respond to that request for comment at all. Also, Meg asked me to clarify on her behalf that when she was talking about Jean Luc Picard and Moby Dick, he was doing an Ahabian thing with the ship. She is aware that Moby Dick is the Whale. We deeply appreciate the support we receive from all of you, especially those of you who support us on Patreon, which you can do by going to patreon.com effectivelywild and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks, as have the following five listeners, Christopher Fox, Kimona, Alexandra Florian and Eric Topp. Thanks to all of you, Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord Group for patrons only, monthly bonus episodes, weekly unrestricted third episodes membership in our Discord Group, prioritized email answers, personalized messages, shoutouts at the end of episodes, potential podcast appearances, fan graphs, memberships and more. Check out all the offerings@patreon.com effectivelywild if you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email, send your questions comments, intro and outro themes to podcastangraphts.com youm can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, music and other podcast platforms. You can join our facebook group@facebook.com group effectively wild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at R Effectively Wild and you can check the show notes in the podcast posted fan graphs or Patreon or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We will be back with another episode soon. Talk to you then.
- [93:48]
B
Can you effectively sort through
- [93:53]
A
all of
- [93:54]
B
these stats and players in your head? Isn't it wild to repeat them
- [94:04]
A
to
- [94:04]
B
all of your indifferent family and friends? They'll keep you company. They'll keep you sane on a long bike ride or a slow work day. Megan Van Waxing about a playoff race who's bats hard? It's Effectively Wild.