Effectively Wild Episode 2494: Culture WAR

Summary

Effectively Wild Episode 2494: "Culture WAR"

Podcast: Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Hosts: Meg Rowley (FanGraphs) and Ben Lindbergh (The Ringer)
Date: June 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers around the recent controversy involving Major League Baseball's (MLB) response to players modifying their caps with messages during Pride Night. Meg and Ben analyze MLB's policies around uniform modifications, the cultural and political firestorm that erupted following MLB’s statements, and the broader implications for LGBTQ+ inclusion and free expression in baseball. The show also critiques the performative outrage cultivated by some political and media figures, and reflects on how MLB could/should approach such situations moving forward.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Tooth-Pulling & Baseball Lineup (00:45 – 03:09)

• Meg shares her recent wisdom tooth removal experience, joking about being "out of the lineup," drawing a parallel to Yankees player Jason Dominguez's similar dental issue.
• Light-hearted banter about the alleged connection between wisdom teeth and actual wisdom.

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2. Context for the Culture War: Pride Night Cap Controversy (04:48 – 06:41)

• Background: Discussion of recent events where certain MLB players wrote personal or religious messages on Pride Night hats, in apparent protest or expression.

• MLB’s initial, minimalist statement on the incident was perceived as targeting Christian players, igniting a political and cultural backlash.

• “Did someone declare a culture war? Here we are.”
  — Ben Lindbergh [06:48]

• Notable Political Reaction:

  • Outrage stoked by high-profile conservative figures and politicians including Clay Travis, Ann Coulter, JD Vance, Josh Hawley, and Greg Abbott.
  • “It was the usual suspects... people who normally pay no attention to baseball.”
    — Meg Rowley [06:32]

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3. Anatomy of MLB’s Response (08:48 – 12:21)

• MLB’s Second, Expanded Statement:

  • Explicitly claimed content-neutrality; the policy prohibits all messages—examples include “Dad,” “Happy Mother’s Day,” and “I love Mom.”
  • MLB stressed precedent for verbal warnings, not discipline, and denied content-based targeting.

• “We respect players right to free expression. However, writing of any kind with any message is prohibited per Major League Baseball's uniform regulations...”
  — Ben Lindbergh (reading MLB statement) [09:05]

• Analysis:

  • Hosts describe MLB’s approach as "milquetoast" and risk-averse, yet not different from normal practice until they made any public comment.
  • Both question why MLB issued a statement at all, suggesting it may have been to appease or signal to objectors, inadvertently amplifying the controversy.
  • “It's not really standard practice to say something about it.”
    — Ben Lindbergh [11:01]

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4. Uniform Modification Policy: What’s the Actual Rule? (13:01 – 18:34)

• Summary of MLB’s Policy:

  • First violation: Verbal warning, no penalty.
  • Second violation: $1,000 fine.
  • Third violation: $5,000 fine.
  • Fourth +: $10,000 fine and disqualification from play until compliant.
  • Potential for larger fines in "flagrant," explicit cases, but standard practice is lenient.
  • “This was a nothing burger. Basically. There was no actual penalty...”
    — Ben Lindbergh [18:34]

• Consistency of Enforcement:

  • MLB rarely, if ever, publicizes warnings for harmless tributes (e.g., "I love Mom”; tributes to deceased loved ones).
  • Hypothesized stricter future enforcement for all modifications, not just controversial ones.

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5. Critique of Public Outrage & Political Reaction (18:45 – 23:53)

• Hosts’ Main Arguments:

  • Cultural and political actors weaponized the incident as part of a broader “culture war,” using it for fundraising, clout, or grievance politics.
  • MLB’s content-neutral policy still wasn't sufficient; critics would accept nothing short of canceling Pride events altogether.
  • “Even when you take the safest possible route... They are going to make hay on this stuff regardless.”
    — Meg Rowley [23:01]

• Corporate Realities:

  • Reflection on MLB’s likely sensitivity regarding its antitrust exemption and international employees’ visa renewals.
  • Advocacy for MLB taking a principled stance rather than endless hedging, recognizing that neutrality will still not satisfy critics.

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6. Policy Recommendation & Philosophical Debate (24:10 – 29:48)

• Meg’s Ideal Policy:

  • Suggests a non-neutral policy allowing for tributes in cases of loss or empathy, but acknowledges the difficulty in drawing lines and practicality for MLB.
  • “If I were the God emperor of baseball... I would try to craft something that actually wasn't content neutral... empathy and solidarity for your fellow player... I don't have any issue with that."
    — Meg Rowley [24:11]

• Analysis of Player Motives & Social Impact:

  • Critiques disingenuous arguments that anti-LGBTQ+ messages are not hateful, noting harm to marginalized groups even if not intended.
  • Highlights the social and psychological harm of the "hate the sin, love the sinner" mindset.
  • “That kept a great many people in the closet for many, many years and has obvious measurable deleterious effects on people's lives.”
    — Meg Rowley [34:11]

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7. Forecasting MLB’s Likely Policy Shift (29:02 – 30:52)

• Ben posits that, going forward, MLB will crackdown universally on all cap messages, even wholesome tributes, to appear consistent and avoid controversy.

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8. The Players’ Side & Community Moderation (30:53 – 36:18)

• Alternatives Available to Players:

  • Players could opt out quietly by not wearing Pride caps rather than publicly writing messages.
  • Example: Sam Hentges, Blake Trinen, and Alex Call wore regular caps without consequence.

• Social Media & Fan Backlash:

  • Hosts discuss moderation efforts in their Facebook group to maintain inclusivity and civil discourse.
  • “Thank you to our moderators for making sure that our community looks and feels the way that we hope it does for all of our members, because we want everyone to feel included.”
    — Meg Rowley [35:13]

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9. Christian Players and Diversity of Belief (35:36 – 36:18)

• Call for Broader Christian Voices:
  • Express wish that more Christian players publicly state that anti-LGBTQ+ stances are not universally held among Christians.
  • “It wouldn't hurt if some Christian ballplayers would speak up and say, hey, this is not... not all Christians. This is not inherently a Christian position.”
    — Ben Lindbergh [35:38]

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10. Player Statements & Wrap-up (36:42 – End)

• Aftermath for Players:

  • J.T. Brubaker described surprise at the backlash, citing prior incidents that did not cause similar uproar.
  • “At the end of the day, I just want this to be done and over with. We're here to play baseball.”
    — J.T. Brubaker, via Ben Lindbergh [36:58]

• The episode transitions into lighter baseball discussion (All-Star voting), closing out the segment on the controversy.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ben Lindbergh [06:55]: “Did someone declare a culture war? Here we are. And we will opportunistically use this statement to pile on and try to make some hay here.”
• Meg Rowley [23:01]: “Even when you take what is viewed to be like the safest possible route... They are going to make hay on this stuff regardless.”
• Ben Lindbergh [18:34]: “So the point is, this was a nothing burger. Basically. There was no actual penalty because this is a one time thing.”
• Meg Rowley [34:11]: “That kept a great many people in the closet for many, many years and has obvious measurable deleterious effects on people's lives.”
• Ben Lindbergh [35:38]: “It wouldn't hurt if some Christian ballplayers would speak up and say, hey, this is not... not all Christians. This is not inherently a Christian position.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Tooth Pulling & Episode Start: 00:00 – 03:09
• Pride Night Cap Controversy Introduction: 04:48 – 06:41
• MLB’s Policy & Political Firestorm: 08:48 – 12:21
• Uniform Rules/Enforcement: 13:01 – 18:34
• Political & Media Outrage Overview: 18:45 – 23:53
• Policy Philosophy & Future Outlook: 24:10 – 29:48
• How Players Could Have Responded: 30:53 – 36:18
• Diversity Within Christian Players: 35:36 – 36:18
• Player Reactions & Close: 36:42 – end

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Tone & Style

The episode balances wry humor and sharp analysis. Meg and Ben combine patience and frustration reflecting on MLB’s PR, the hypocrisy of culture war politics, and the emotional impact on LGBTQ+ fans and players. The tone is both empathetic and critical, with pointed asides, light sarcasm, and clear moral stances.

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Summary Takeaway

Ben and Meg dissect the Pride Night cap controversy not as a real enforcement episode, but as an example of how culture war outrage operates—and how MLB, by trying to tiptoe with a content-neutral approach, satisfied no one and may move toward stricter, more consistent policing of all cap modifications. They argue that, regardless of MLB’s policy, the broader issue is about public messaging, harm to vulnerable groups, and the need for stronger voices in support of inclusion within baseball.

Transcript

[Ben Lindbergh]

Effectively Wild. We can talk about Otani all day long. Effectively Wild. Been in makeup on our life. You know, it's gonna be a good time. I want to learn about new statistics. I want to hear about rnm rbis. Yeah, tell me about some prospect I should know about.

[Meg Riley]

Hello, and welcome to episode 2494 of Effectively Wild, a FanGraphs baseball podcast, brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Riley, fangraphs, and I am joined by Ben Lindberg of the Ringer. Ben, how are you?

I'm doing well, but how are you, more importantly? Because much like Jason Dominguez of the Yankees, you had a tooth pulled and thus were not in the lineup on Tuesday. Not in the affectedly wild lineup at least.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And he, I think, had an infected

[Meg Riley]

tooth, whereas you were hoping to avoid one. As I understand it, it was a. A preemptive move.

Yes, that's correct.

[Ben Lindbergh]

My.

[Meg Riley]

My last wisdom tooth was pulled. It was not impacted, thank goodness. But it was growing at a real weird angle, and it was all bunched up against a molar, and my dentist was like, hey, that's gonna be bad at some point. Let's take care of it now. Because it was irritating my gums. It was. Introducing the possibility of cavity. It was. Well, it just. It hurt, Ben, you know, at times was uncomfy, and so got yanked out. Clean pull, as it were. How nice. And yesterday I sounded very swollen, and I was in pain, and today I'm already much better, so. Isn't that excellent? Yeah. Only. Only had to take one of the Tylenol with codeines. They didn't have to put me all the way under, so I. I didn't have, like, anesthesia fog, but I sure sounded ridiculous. And yesterday I was in a good bit of discomfort, and I have, like, a bruise on my cheek from where he had to kind of brace against my face to, like, oh, no, pull that sucker out of there. So I look like I got in a very tiny fight a little bit and in an odd spot, but we were on the mend.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Good.

[Meg Riley]

Thank goodness.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, I missed you. I'm sorry our listeners missed out on

[Meg Riley]

hearing you with the Tylenol plus codeine,

[Ben Lindbergh]

but it's probably for the best.

[Meg Riley]

And I wasn't that loopy, you know, I really. I wasn't that loopy. It doesn't make you.

Yeah, you can get harder drugs with dental procedures sometimes, so you can get the good stuff, I guess.

And I. I wasn't in need of it, thankfully, so in that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Nice.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, I have yet to have a wisdom tooth removed, which you might think would make me more wise, but no,

[Meg Riley]

I think the idea is that you have gained your full maturity. You come into your full wisdom now that you have had those removed because they emerge later. That's the idea. That's why they're called wisdom teeth. It's a, a signifier of, you know, you've got your mature prefrontal cortex now because you have all your wisdom teeth

[Ben Lindbergh]

and you had the wisdom to have it removed before it caused a problem.

[Meg Riley]

And now you are back in the lineup. Hopefully Jason Dominguez will be as well.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And we are front loading our recording

[Meg Riley]

this week, as people have noticed due to reasons of unavailability later in the week. And so the baseball scheduling gods and the podcast scheduling gods, who in this

[Ben Lindbergh]

case are us, have conspired to make it so that we are recording on

[Meg Riley]

Wednesday afternoon during a Dodgers raised day game.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And so I'm second screening a Shohei

[Meg Riley]

Ohtani start as we record, which doesn't happen so much anymore. Cause he's been on this midweek rotation and usually you're not getting day games. And so. So I will do my best to pay close attention to this podcast and just give some side eye to the Dodgers game here. Shout out to Adrian Chiles, because you know, he's watching a raised day game. I mean, midweek, that's a treat. It's still evening in England.

Yeah. How, how leisurely he must feel. You know, can have a little like evening time tipple and enjoy his race. That sounds lovely.

Yes, I would think so.

[Ben Lindbergh]

All right, well, we have some emails, we have some stat blasts, we have some baseball banter.

[Meg Riley]

I do have a follow up and I'm, I'm loathe to devote even more

[Ben Lindbergh]

mental energy to the Pride Night objectors because we've all talked too much about them, probably, but.

[Meg Riley]

And perhaps you napped through part of this, but the situation metastasized.

Yeah.

Since we discussed it. So we talked about this on Monday

[Ben Lindbergh]

and then after we recorded, as I

[Meg Riley]

noted on the outro, before the podcast was posted, MLB put out a brief statement about this, gave a statement to Outsports, and it circulated elsewhere.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And it was about as milquetoast a statement as one could come up with,

[Meg Riley]

but not the most milquetoast statement, because

[Ben Lindbergh]

that would come the next day and MLB probably wishes it had been even

[Meg Riley]

more milquetoast to begin with.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So the initial statement, which came From Pat Courtney, MLB's chief communications officer, was the writing on the cap violates our rules and consistent with normal practice.

[Meg Riley]

We have warned the players about future violations.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So pretty innocuous, you know, and trying to make it clear that it's just against the rules. It's not MLB coming down on the stance here.

[Meg Riley]

It's just, hey, you can't deface, you can't alter the cap, the uniform. And it was not received that way.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So there was a Republican chorus summoned

[Meg Riley]

by this statement in the day after that. And it was blood in the water. It was the usual suspects. It was people just getting one whiff of this. People who normally pay no attention to baseball.

Sure.

Which I could tell based on the number of the MLBs I saw.

It's such a reliable indicator, man.

Horrifying. Yes.

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That was not the worst part of this, but it was up there. Sure. And so it was just, ooh, did someone declare a culture war? Here we are. And we will opportunistically use this statement

[Meg Riley]

to pile on and try to make some hay here.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And it was again, your usual suspects, your cultural commentators, your Clay Travis's, your Ann Coulters.

[Meg Riley]

Okay. The Babylon Bee, Tomi Lahren, wife of J. Pierre and Sebia.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You sort of expect that from them. It was also, though, a lot of people in important positions who really should

[Meg Riley]

have better things to do.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But unfortunately, exploiting this grievance stuff is often the number one thing they do.

[Meg Riley]

It's. It's how they attain and retain said positions.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yep.

And so we had statements, we had

[Meg Riley]

tweets, JD Vance, Noah Holly, Greg Abbott,

[Ben Lindbergh]

sitting state attorneys general.

[Meg Riley]

Josh Hawley.

Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Not Noah. No. Is. Noah is innocent. As far as I know, Noah just makes good TV shows.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah, I was going to say, Josh,

[Ben Lindbergh]

Holly, let us not besmirch the maker of Fargo and Alien Earth and other excellent shows.

[Meg Riley]

But yes, the other Holly, the worst Holly, a letter to Rob Manfred about this. You know, your usual kind of congressional grandstanding.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And, and just all of these statements

[Meg Riley]

were basically accusing MLB of religious discrimination.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You know, which is if you know anything about MLB and the player pool

[Meg Riley]

in Major League Baseball, the idea that

[Ben Lindbergh]

Christians are being discriminated against in professional baseball. Pretty far fetched, right?

[Meg Riley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Say a lot of looking to fundraise

[Meg Riley]

or clout chase or stoke resentment.

Right.

And in the wake of this, MLB released an expanded statement to try to

[Ben Lindbergh]

stanch the bleeding a little bit here.

[Meg Riley]

Just try to dial down the rhetoric. So the follow up statement from MLB

[Ben Lindbergh]

was, to be clear, this routine verbal warning not to wear the hat in future games is not disciplinary and had absolutely nothing to do with the content of the message.

[Meg Riley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

We respect players right to free expression.

[Meg Riley]

However, writing of any kind with any

[Ben Lindbergh]

message is prohibited per Major League Baseball's uniform regulations, which provides in part that a player may not write, attach, affix, embroider or otherwise display nicknames or messages

[Meg Riley]

on apparel or playing equipment. We have given the same warning numerous times in the past two players for messages such as dad, Happy Mother's Day,

[Ben Lindbergh]

I love mom and names of family members. So they're going way out of their way here to equate this with any

[Meg Riley]

other just completely benign message. And that was pretty predictable, I guess.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Now, the initial statement on Monday I was sort of pleasantly surprised, right? Surprised, if only because you knew that

[Meg Riley]

making any kind of comment would court this kind of controversy, you know, and suddenly you'd have, you know, the, the

[Ben Lindbergh]

marquee names in entertainment such as Rob

[Meg Riley]

Schneider and Kevin Sorbo, offering to pay the fines of the players involved as

if the non existent fines of the

[Ben Lindbergh]

place, as if they need the assistance there.

[Meg Riley]

I don't know how Rob Schneider's net worth is doing these days, but I

was gonna say, I think even Landon Roop is probably beating them from an annual salary perspective.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, but even if you're league minimum,

[Meg Riley]

I think you can handle it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But really that initial statement, now I don't know whether MLB issued that initial

[Meg Riley]

statement because there was such a backlash to those Giants objectors and so they were trying to throw a bone to the people who were offended by what they did.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And then just even by saying it

[Meg Riley]

though, and, and they made it clear

[Ben Lindbergh]

that it wasn't about the content of the message and that this is just sort of standard practice. But however, it's not really standard practice

[Meg Riley]

to say something about it.

Correct? We don't hear about I love Mom.

[Ben Lindbergh]

No, we don't hear about I love mom. And I don't think we had even

[Meg Riley]

heard about the previous Pride Night messages.

Correct.

I don't, I don't think there was an MLB statement saying that Clayton Kershaw was warned or any of the previous guys who had done that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And so you could interpret that as a special kind of case in that

[Meg Riley]

they actually chose to comment on it. And so just by choosing to comment

[Ben Lindbergh]

on it, it seemed like a bit of a rebuke. And I don't know whether they even intended it that way or they were

[Meg Riley]

just explaining to outsports this is our

[Ben Lindbergh]

policy and, and that's all it is.

[Meg Riley]

And it was taken as more than that. Obviously there was very rapid backpedaling after the backlash to do away with the interpretation that MLB was specifically targeting Christians or even this specific message. And so that was, again, not surprising. But if you had interpreted the initial

[Ben Lindbergh]

statement as, oh, they said something, and

[Meg Riley]

that's a little bit of a break with the past. And I guess that's why some of these people were piling on and saying, oh, MLB is specifically calling out these players because they did actually release a statement, whereas they hadn't in the past.

Yeah.

Anyway, if there was any intent to that statement, it was quickly wiped away, you know, in the face of this big capitalization on this situation.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And it's pretty ridiculous.

[Meg Riley]

Not just because obviously Christians are kind of the, the dominant group in, in

[Ben Lindbergh]

baseball, in Major League Baseball.

[Meg Riley]

It's hardly a, I think a minority group, hardly a discriminated against group.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And also this is a consistent policy,

[Meg Riley]

if not the policy of commenting on it, at least the policy itself. I don't know for sure whether the

[Ben Lindbergh]

Rays in the past or Kershaw got

[Meg Riley]

the same private warning.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I would guess that they did. I wouldn't be surprised if they did,

[Meg Riley]

but it just wasn't publicized.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But also, this is a completely toothless policy. So if we're trying to turn these guys into religious martyrs or something, they're,

[Meg Riley]

they're not paying any significant price here. So I, I emailed MLB to ask whether there was or is any enforcement

[Ben Lindbergh]

mechanism or any, any punishment or anything. And the league referred me to the

[Meg Riley]

CBA, which anyone can read. It's. It's on page 234 is where the section starts about discipline pertaining to uniform alterations.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And technically there is some, but it

[Meg Riley]

is extremely lightweight and for a first violation. So I'll just summarize here.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The first violation, it says, the senior vice president on field operations or comparable

[Meg Riley]

title slash position will issue a uniform

[Ben Lindbergh]

regulations violation warning, setting forth the provision of the uniform regulations that the player

[Meg Riley]

has violated and specifying that the player will be subject to further discipline if he does not immediately cease violating the regulations. So as you said, there's no penalty.

[Ben Lindbergh]

There's nothing. There's nothing for Rob Schneider to pony

[Meg Riley]

up here, which will probably be a relief to him and his accountants.

Probably an exhale on that one for him.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. So all you get is a warning

[Meg Riley]

on the first violation if there is

[Ben Lindbergh]

a second violation within the same section of the uniform regulations or regarding the same product on the uniform and equipment logo ID specification.

[Meg Riley]

So it has to be the same violation.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I guess you could, if you wanted

[Meg Riley]

to be cute about it, just kind of get Them playing whack a mole

[Ben Lindbergh]

by doing different uniform violations every time. You could claim that it was a first time violation, but, but the second violation, after you've been warned, brace yourself.

[Meg Riley]

There's a $1,000 fine, right? Yeah. So it's not going to bankrupt any big leaguers here. Right.

Owens given up a game check even.

This is couch cushion coins for them, basically. Third violation, the penalty rises to a $5,000 fine.

Oh, my God.

Yep. And fourth violation, we're up to a $10,000 fine. And beyond that fourth time, it says if the player violates for a fourth

[Ben Lindbergh]

time, it directs that the player will

[Meg Riley]

not be permitted to play in championship season games, including spring training and postseason games if applicable, until the player's unifor in compliance with the regulations and official playing rules. So in theory, you, you get one

[Ben Lindbergh]

warning, no cost, then escalating fines.

[Meg Riley]

And then after the fourth time you do this, then you are supposed to be prevented from playing until you conform.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So I don't know whether this has always been handled consistently.

[Meg Riley]

And there's some guys, maybe they lose a loved one or something and they have a message on the cap and,

[Ben Lindbergh]

and, and some of those guys, I

[Meg Riley]

think, have had that message on there for a while. And so I don't know whether MLB has always held them to the letter of the law. I don't know if, if guys, if they're putting dad because their dad died or something, I don't know whether, you know, are they actually getting fined?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Are they saying, you're not going to be able to play? I don't know.

[Meg Riley]

Obviously there's not nearly as much scrutiny of that.

Sure.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Publicly, because no one particularly cares. It's not super controversial. So, you know, but if you wanted

[Meg Riley]

to be consistent about it, which you probably should, because when these sort of politically inflected cases come up, then you want to be able to say, this is how we always handle it, then I guess you probably should hold them to that. In every case, no matter the lettering or the cause.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And there are some provisions in here also that if there's a, a flagrant violation of this policy. So it says, notwithstanding the foregoing, just

[Meg Riley]

all the, you know, usually laid out schedule of fines and everything, it says that the following will apply to a violation after a warning and to repeated

[Ben Lindbergh]

or a single flagrant or provocative breach of the uniform regulations involving an intentional impermissible alteration, writing or illustration or other

[Meg Riley]

marking made by a player to any part of his uniform, blah, blah, blah. In that case, the senior vice president on field Operations or comparable title position may impose fines at levels different from the levels reflected in paragraph one above. So in theory, if there's something especially

[Ben Lindbergh]

provocative, which this was, but this is probably not exactly what they mean by

[Meg Riley]

provocative, then the bigwigs can say, no, you get an even bigger fine because this was even worse. And then there is also a provision the senior vice president, blah, blah, blah, may direct prior to the fourth such violation, that the player will not be permitted. So you could imagine maybe there's something extremely unfamily friendly, maybe, you know, something

[Ben Lindbergh]

super flagrant and explicit or whatever.

[Meg Riley]

Can't draw a dick on your cap, you know?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, you draw a dick on the cap and.

[Meg Riley]

Or you can't have a slur on your cap.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right, that too, yeah. They're probably not going to just give

[Meg Riley]

you the, the war and then the few slaps on the wrist and then let you get away with that for four games.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Probably they're gonna take quicker action. So the point is, this was a nothing burger. Basically. There was no actual penalty because this is a one time thing.

[Meg Riley]

There's one Pride night for the team and they did this on that pride night, not by coincidence. And then I'm sure they got their warning.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And regardless, they wouldn't have done it again because there wasn't going to be

[Meg Riley]

another pride night and they didn't pay a penny. And it's not as if MLB singled them out or, or triggered this. Ooh, this was especially provocative. So we're finding you ahead of schedule or we're going to prevent you from playing. None of that happened. So this is as lightweight a policy as possible. If MLB really wanted to take this

[Ben Lindbergh]

seriously, they would have done something proactively

[Meg Riley]

because this has come up before. And they could have sent a memo around, they could have said, hey, this is not going to fly anymore. All the stuff we talked about last time, where it could be a real ironclad policy that you could hold people to and anticipate you're going to have some players who do this and try to take swift action to head that off. They didn't do any of that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So this was as close to nothing

[Meg Riley]

as MLB could have done.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And so this seizing on this opportunity

[Meg Riley]

to act as if MLB has something out for Christians or something is completely preposterous. So just want to establish that. Not that any of the people who are making political hay over this are listening to effectively wild in all likelihood, but that's the actual policy. That's the punishment or lack thereof. And the only deviation from the norm here really is that MLB gave a single sentence statement about this, just reiterating its policy, which may or may not be meaningful, but probably MLP will not make that mistake again from their perspective of giving people any ammunition to try to twist this into something it wasn't.

There's a reason I'm not in charge of MLB's comms, because if it had been me, I would have just tweeted at Josh Holly with the video of him running away on January 6th. Being like, this, you, this, you, King, yes, you.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I'm sure that would have gone over well.

[Meg Riley]

I mean, it would have gone over well with me. I would have enjoyed that. But I understand that I am not their target audience.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, you would have been a hero on Blue sky, but perhaps not on Twitter.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah, you would. Yeah, there would have been a lot of go off.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I made the mistake of wading into the for you tab, which is, it was, it was top to bottom,

[Meg Riley]

just nothing but these grievance grifting kind of tweets that they were not for me.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So the algorithm was, was off on that. But that's my fault, I guess, for thinking I was going to get something better.

[Meg Riley]

Okay, I'm going to say something that might be surprising to people given the force of my argumentation our last episode. Don't worry, I'm going to come back around to it. But I am mindful of of the reality that Major League Baseball as a business entity has a certain amount of bobbing and weaving that they probably think is necessary given the always ever present quiet but looming threat that maybe exists to their antitrust exemption. And I'm also mindful of the fact that as a league they employ a great many people, not just on the field, though certainly the players are the most high profile examples of this. But across their entire operation, who might say, need to renew visas every year. Right. So I'm not such a Blue sky user, Right. That I don't appreciate the corporate reality that they operate in. Having said that, I think that this is a. A good example of how you might as well just stand on your convictions a little bit because even when you take what is viewed to be like the safest possible route. Right. We have reminded these players of our existing uniform policy, which does not differentiate. Right. It is a content neutral policy.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right.

[Meg Riley]

If you love your mom, you're not supposed to put that on your cap.

Yeah.

Right. And having simply acknowledged that they reminded these players of the policy and their violation of it and then handed to them no further Disciplinary action. Right. They weren't suspended. They didn't have to pay a fine, as we noted. They were just being reminded of the policy. And that in and of itself did not satisfy any of the Josh Hawleys of the world. It did not satisfy any conservative commentators. They are going to make hay on this stuff regardless. Unless you say, well, we're very sorry and we have canceled all other Prague nights. Right?

Yeah.

And so if there isn't going to be satisfaction to be had here, you may as well stand on principle now. They have to decide what their principles are. Right. And we have seen that this is a roller coaster of an exploration.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right.

[Meg Riley]

And that it is one that is often dictated by kind of cynical factors, the appetite of advertisers to be a participant in your event, if you hold it in a state that is rightly perceived as trying to restrict the franchise, for example. But you may as well kind of stand on principle Now. I am of the belief, and I am not a lawyer. Okay. One of the many professions. I'm not. Although I got talked out of this one by my lawyer mom, unlike being a doctor where I was like, that's not for me. People have heard me listen to you describe MRIs and are not surprised by that. But I think that, you know, if it were me, if I were the God emperor of baseball and could determine these sorts of policies, I would try to craft something that actually wasn't content neutral. If you want to acknowledge the death of a loved one, if you. If you want to show empathy and solidarity for your fellow player, like the Blue Jays did when Alex Veccia and his wife lost their daughter, I don't have any issue with that. I understand why they write it as a content neutral policy, because it's a lot easier to interpret force, even if it puts them in the rather ridiculous position of having to issue uniform warnings to their players who say that they love their moms. Right. But I could imagine saying, we do not allow for the alteration of caps and uniforms except in these very specific circumstances. And you lay those out. And again, I get why they don't do that. And I understand that even as a, as a private business entity and not the US Government. Right. Curtailing speech. And as an aside, Josh. Josh Hawley doesn't believe in worker protections. Get the hell out of here, man. You. You don't. You're not working to bolster the working person and their ability to express themselves at work. You don't care about any of that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Being willfully obtuse to try to just

[Meg Riley]

drum up this sort of sentiment, you

know, like trying to point out the hypocrisy of guys like Josh Hawley is a direct pathway to madness because there are simply too many examples to keep track. So I understand why they make it a content neutral policy, but it's like, hey, guys, you're doing that. You're doing the, this thing where you're trying to signal to the parts of your fan base who are supportive of the queer community that you don't approve of this behavior. You're still going to get whacked from the right. So just support them. Do it actually. Right. And I want to also be clear because I, you know, was very feisty in the direction of Major League Baseball. I think that there are a great many people who work for the league or work for its affiliated clubs, who work for the Giants, who are supportive in an enthusiastic and unequivocal way of Pride Nights as, as a celebration of the gay community more broadly, but as an institution, the institution that is Major League Baseball has some decisions to make. And I, I am just genuinely curious, like, what will their takeaways from this interaction be and what are the factors that they are thinking of when they're trying to formulate their communication strategy? If I saw the league, you know, doing what it needs to from an actual policy perspective and then trying to sort of have it both ways from a comms perspective, you know, I wouldn't love it, but I'd have sympathy for it. Right? It would be one thing if they were like, well, all 30 of our clubs have to do a pride night, but we're going to be sort of mealy mouthed when we talk about it to Republicans in Congress. They're not doing that. Right. They're not. They're kind of letting things sit in an unsettled way. So I will just be curious what direction they go here, but I find it funny in an unfunny sort of way. Like, I think it is instructive to look to how folks who are ideologically aligned with the message behind, say, Landon Roop's Bible verse understood this moment. Right? Because the players themselves, at least so far, are trying to have this, like, sort of have it both ways posture that we described last time where, like, they don't want to be seen as bigoted or hateful, but they also want to make sure that they, people in the, in the know know what they mean. And they do. We saw that. That's why you get Josh Hawley running, as he so often does, to the Defense. If I were that man, I would have. I would have retired from public life because I would have been running.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Riley]

Thoroughly humiliated by that. But sure, Josh, write your books about masculinity.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I would guess that if anything,

[Meg Riley]

MLB will crack down on these messages in all cases. Now, just, it's in order to maintain straightforward approach, right.

To just say, like, look, guys, no more for everyone. And I don't love it as it pertains to like telling your mom you love her or showing compassion toward the loss of a teammate or even an opponent. But if the alternative is the pregnant nonsense, I unfortunately do think that that is a sacrifice worth making because you have other modes of expressing. There are other ways that you can express that care and love for your. For your family, for your fellow teammates. And so I don't think that it tamps down on it in a way that like really causes you to lose something. I don't know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, and the Dodgers and Blue Jays

[Meg Riley]

last year, you mentioned Alex Vessia. They did kind of a group tribute

[Ben Lindbergh]

where they all, at least all the relievers had 51 written on their caps. And, and that may have been something where they got approval to do it.

[Meg Riley]

Often, obviously if like a team legend dies or something, you'll have an armband

[Ben Lindbergh]

or you'll have a patch or something

[Meg Riley]

on the hat or something, and then it's part of the uniform, so it's a sanctioned alteration.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So in those cases, when there is

[Meg Riley]

some real loss that everyone on the team is feeling, then you can standardize it and then it's not an issue. So it's really just when one person is freelancing and probably no one's offended by that if someone does it as a tribute to a loved one for a day or something. But yes, it is probably for the best that they curtail that just in the interest of curtailing everything. I guess you could say it's. It's sort of sad that just the

[Ben Lindbergh]

wholesome tribute gets swept up in all of this, but if you have a policy.

[Meg Riley]

Yeah, then it's. It's got to be consistent.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The other thing about this, the whole

[Meg Riley]

idea that these players were persecuted, they didn't have to write something on the Pride caps.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They could have not worn the pride

[Meg Riley]

caps, as one of them did. Sam Hentious just didn't wear it, just wore the regular cap. And Blake Trinen and Alex Call wore the regular cap.

[Ben Lindbergh]

This year I actually confirmed with the league that if they had done that because there's no league wide Pride Night,

[Meg Riley]

it was just A team initiative.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They don't even get the toothless warning unless the team chose to penalize them

[Meg Riley]

in some way, which certainly doesn't seem to have been the case.

[Ben Lindbergh]

There's no league level consequence for that. They could just opt out and wear the regular cap with no message on it. And some of them did. So they weren't even nominally forced to

[Meg Riley]

do or promote anything.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So it's the fact that they wore

[Meg Riley]

the pride cap but then wrote on it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They could have easily taken the lower profile way out.

[Meg Riley]

I'm not saying that we all would have approved of them doing that either, but I don't think it would have become such a firestorm. So they really went above and beyond to call attention to it and to try to court this warning essentially. So there was a path available to them to just sort of opt out of this in a less attention getting way, but they didn't do that. And, and the way that, you know, we touched on this last time too, but in our Facebook group we have moderators who've been working hard this week and policing lots of comments. I'm still technically a moderator there. I don't do that much moderation anymore, but I was dipping in this week to help out a little bit and

[Ben Lindbergh]

I just, you know, a lot of the comments and, and you see this

[Meg Riley]

all over the place. I was seeing this in some of the tweets and also in some of

[Ben Lindbergh]

the comments that people were trying to leave in the Facebook group and everything and emails and whatever else.

[Meg Riley]

It's always, oh, it's, it's not directed toward the queer people. It's not about hating them or not liking them. It's about the lifestyle they've chosen. And I just cannot understand this perspective

[Ben Lindbergh]

because as we said, we don't know what these guys are thinking and feeling. And it is entirely possible that they don't see themselves as hateful. But it doesn't matter ultimately because it's about your actions and how your beliefs impact others. And I just, just turn it around, just reverse it, just golden rule it. If someone was coming to you and telling you, a straight person in this

[Meg Riley]

case, that they don't dislike you, they just think it's wrong and sinful for you to have sex with a member of the opposite sex.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I don't just say so, but also enact laws and regulations in many cases to that effect. So it's not just personal opinion, but it has the weights of law behind it or has historically, to say nothing of. You feel like you're this Gender.

[Meg Riley]

Well, too bad. We feel like you're that gender.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And so it's not just perfectly civil and reasonable to just expect people to

[Meg Riley]

stay celibate for life.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I guess, like, as long as they just did that, then you wouldn't have a problem with them. Would you like to be held to that standard? It's just.

[Meg Riley]

It seems so myopic to me not to understand that that is what you're doing there. Even if you're not driven by some

[Ben Lindbergh]

sort of hatred or don't see yourself as being driven by some sort of

[Meg Riley]

hatred, it's just inherently intolerant to hold that position.

I think, to your point, like, how would you feel if that were turned around on you? You know, the. The idea of, like, hate the sin, love the sinner was a line of thought that kept a great many people in the closet for many, many years and has obvious measurable deleterious effects on people's lives. It is tied heavily to increased rates of depression, to suicidal ideation. Like, it is a devastating thing to ask of people, and it is just fundamentally, I think, inseparable from who you are as a person. Like, yeah, I don't hate you. I just think that your relationship with your wife is icky and that you're both going to hell for it. So, you know, no, no. Hate all love. It's like. And I understand that if you are a believer in that perspective, that perhaps you feel some sort of obligation or urgency around the question, because, hey, you're. Your immortal soul is at stake.

Right.

But that just doesn't have to be my problem in a public space, you know, it just doesn't. So, yeah, I hope everyone is having a good pride. That's what I hope. Let's end on that note. I hope everyone's having a good pride. And thank you to our moderators for making sure that our community looks and. And feels the way that we hope it does for all of our members, because we want everyone to feel included.

So, yeah, it wouldn't hurt if some

[Ben Lindbergh]

Christian ballplayers would speak up and say, hey, this is not. Not all Christians. This is not inherently a Christian position. This is a subset of Christians.

[Meg Riley]

This is a minority position. This is not a position you have to hold to be compatible with our other religious beliefs. And so I understand the awkwardness of

[Ben Lindbergh]

a teammate rebuking a fellow teammate, but there are a lot of Christian ballplayers

[Meg Riley]

out there who don't feel this way, and we're not moved to do this to their caps.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And so, you know, we have seen

[Meg Riley]

the occasional statement of support, but it would be nice if Moore would speak up.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That would help, perhaps.

[Meg Riley]

I wonder whether Trinen opted not to write something on his cap because he was warned previously and so he just decided to opt out and wear the regular cap because he didn't want to have to hit up Rob Schneider for that thousand bucks. I don't know. But anyway, even the players involved gave an interview to the California Post where they talked about basically how they got more blowback than they had bargained for. J.T. brubaker said.

[Ben Lindbergh]

We felt there wasn't going to be as much kickback on it. Players have done it in the past

[Meg Riley]

and it didn't seem like it was blown up that big.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He confirmed, by the way, that they haven't even heard from the league that this was just a verbal warning.

[Meg Riley]

They didn't even get a message in writing. That brief initial statement was the extent of it anyway, brubaker said.

[Ben Lindbergh]

At the end of the day, I just want this to be done and over with.

[Meg Riley]

We're here to play baseball.

[Ben Lindbergh]

This is going on almost a week now. Just play ball.

[Meg Riley]

That's all I want to do. We're all trying to find the guys

[Ben Lindbergh]

who did this so we can transition

[Meg Riley]

here to a lower stakes controversy and scandal, which is all star voting.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That'll do it for the free preview of today's Effectively Wild, thank you, thank you for listening.

[Meg Riley]

If you'd like to listen on and

[Ben Lindbergh]

hear whatever wisdom and wit await, we would love to have you. You can visit patreon.com effectivelywild to access the rest of this episode and plenty

[Meg Riley]

of other exclusive content.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Weekly subscriber only episodes, Monthly bonus shows, our Discord group, our livestreams. Either way, we will be back with another episode soon which will appear in full on this feed. Until then, we wish you well and thank you for your support of Effectively Wild.

[Meg Riley]

Whatever form it take.