Effectively Wild Episode 2495: Rank Amateurs

Summary

Effectively Wild Episode 2495: "Rank Amateurs" – June 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Ben Lindbergh (The Ringer) and Meg Rowley (FanGraphs) deliver their signature blend of in-depth baseball analysis, player appreciation, and spirited commentary. They discuss recent player returns, All-Star voting oddities (with Blue Jays fans continuing to dominate), a controversial MLB proposal for radical amateur draft changes, evolving Home Run Derby formats, and ongoing sagas both on the field and off (including the responses to Pride Night protests and aging aces). The tone is witty, informed, and at times self-deprecating, with both hosts weaving in memorable anecdotes and passionate defenses of the game's traditions and future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Joyous Returns: Meneses & Brebia are Back

• Ben opens in high spirits, celebrating the return of former "best player in baseball" Joey Meneses (now with the A's) and John Brebia (now up with the Rockies after a winding minor/major league path) ([00:38]).
  • Ben: "It would not be an exaggeration to say that I have been checking Brebia's box scores daily. It's appointment viewing for me." ([01:53])
  • Notes Meneses' strong AAA numbers (.348/.401/.539 in 69 AAA games) and jokes about PCL “thin air, don’t care” stats ([01:30]).
  • Reflects briefly on the joy of pet player comebacks and contrasts it with broader baseball woes—like Mike Trout's latest injury ([04:03]).

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2. Mike Trout to IL and All-Star Voting Antics

• Mike Trout lands on the Injured List with a hamstring strain, jeopardizing his possible All-Star Game appearance in Philly ([04:55]).
  • Trout on timelines: "If I put a timeline on things... it's just frustration whether you do hit it or don't." ([05:11])
  • Ben & Meg discuss the persistent injury bug, Trout’s age, and the implications for his star status and selection.

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All-Star Balloting: The Blue Jays Dominate (Again)

• Blue Jays fans have essentially taken over the All-Star vote, with Ernie Clement leading all AL vote-getters with 2+ million votes ([07:12]).
  • Meg: "We might suggest that the All Star voting portal is the only website that works in the entire country of Canada..." ([08:46])
  • Discuss fan voting integrity vs. tribalism, with Clement as the poster boy for overzealous but legitimate homerism ([09:09]).
  • Ben: "I'd appreciate a little perspective. Not complete impartiality, but...some sense of who might other people want to see." ([10:12])
  • Blue Jays now lead or are second at every non-outfield AL position; their fans' “take all the toys” approach is likened to a child refusing to share ([13:38]).

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Clement, Kirk, and the Curious AL Catcher Ranks

• Alejandro Kirk (Blue Jays) holds far more votes than Tigers’ breakout star Dylan Dingler, despite an injury-marred, unproductive year.
  • Meg: "I'm sure that Alejandro Kirk is well aware of how ridiculous it would be for him to make the All-Star team... It would be very silly." ([17:14])
  • Ben provides Dingler’s stellar numbers: 18 HR in 70 games, 141 wRC+, league-best defensive framing, leading AL in WAR for catchers ([16:11]; [18:13]).
  • Ben: “He’s just raking. He’s just a star somehow,” despite a non-elite prospect pedigree ([16:11]).
  • Both hosts lament the disconnect between fan voting and actual performance, while delighting in Dingler’s unexpected emergence.

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3. Home Run Derby Format: Never the Same Twice

• The Derby’s format is changing again—back to swings & outs, abandoning the clock ([21:27]).
  • Ben: "If there's one constant with the Homer Derby, it's that there is never a constant..." ([21:21])
  • New rules: 20 swings (first round), 15 (finals), ties broken by longest HR (first round) or extra swings (finals); possibility of infinite swings if you keep homering ([21:31]).
  • The change is reportedly Netflix-driven, as Netflix broadcasts the event this year ([23:39]).
  • Meg: "It can be really hard to sort of keep track of what's actually happening when it's purely the clock. It can really drag ass, though." ([25:42])
  • Both agree the endless tinkering is partly a play for fan engagement, speculate about player fatigue and the hope that a less taxing format entices stars to participate ([29:13]).

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4. MLB’s Radical Amateur Draft and International System Proposal

• MLB has proposed a dramatic overhaul of the amateur draft and talent acquisition, including:
  • Cutting draft to 12 rounds ([36:53])
  • Eliminating high school player eligibility; draft-eligible only at 20 and two years after HS ([36:59])
  • Instituting a hard slotting system, removing current flexibility for teams ([36:59])
  • International draft eligibility starts at 18 ([44:18])
  • Excuse: Aligning domestic/international pools, improving college baseball, and getting players to MLB faster. Reality: Major league cost cutting and suppressing player earning power ([42:50], [54:39])
  • Union response: "Flat out bad for baseball and would cripple the next generation of players and damage the future of our game." ([42:50])
  • Meg: "[College] yardstick against which they are measured is pro player dev. And if I'm good at player dev, I don't want to outsource that to LSU or Texas or Georgia. No offense to West Johnson, but I want to do that." ([60:21])
  • Analysis: Delaying top prep/intl prospects like Mike Trout, Bryce Harper, Juan Soto would deprive fans of teen phenoms and reduce young free agents in their prime ([47:30])
  • Caution about further eroding minor leagues, amateur talent pipeline, and diversity of player backgrounds and development approaches ([62:15])
  • Conclude: Proposal is a blatant money grab and weakens baseball’s long-term health.

Notable Quotes

• Ben: "You basically wouldn't have any prime age free agents anymore..." ([47:30])
• Meg: "This is not only a money grab on the part of the owners, but also subtly like weird little attempt to fracture the interests of the, of the players association..." ([63:34])

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5. Off-Field & Cultural Sagas

York Revolution Forfeit & Pride Night Fallout ([73:03])

• DOJ launches investigation into Giants players' “religious discrimination” cap writing complaint—players themselves find the escalation absurd ([74:03])
• The Atlantic League’s York Revolution forfeit a game rather than force most of their players to wear Pride uniforms; ownership stands firmly for inclusion, holds the event for fans regardless ([79:01])
  • Ben: "This is a very strong message... treated it as a rainout, gave free admission, and made a $10,000 donation to a local center." ([79:10])
  • Meg: "[The GM said]...our community will be inclusive, it will be loving, it will be accepting. It's moving. Trying to move beyond tolerance to... something truly diverse and thriving." ([84:09])
• Lament the influence of MLB players' anti-inclusion stances on lower-level leagues and broader baseball culture.

Clubhouse Drama: Giants & Devers Pinch Running Incident ([86:12])

• Ben and Meg discuss a minor, telling kerfuffle where Raphael Devers refuses to come out for a pinch runner—questioning both Devers’s self-awareness and the Giants’ clubhouse leadership.

Aging Aces: Scherzer & Verlander Twilight Years ([89:44])

• Both star pitchers suffer injury after injury; hosts reflect on the pain of watching stars fade, the rare beauty of a “storybook” final season, and the struggle to walk away ([94:00]).
  • Ben: "The one nice thing... is that these guys won't have to wonder whether they had something left." ([98:15])

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Ben (on All-Star voting): “I’d appreciate a little perspective. Not…complete impartiality, but just…some sense of who might other people want to see.” ([10:12])
• Meg (on Ernie Clement): “Ernie is a fun, that's a fun name to say. Ernie, you know, has sort of an old timey ring to it.” ([07:41])
• Ben (on Dylan Dingler): "He’s just raking. He’s just a star somehow." ([16:11])
• Meg (on MLB’s proposal): "If you want to say we need to make dramatic changes for the safety and well being of international amateurs, I'm open to that conversation… But as it pertains to the domestic draft, this is…a money grab on the part of the owners." ([63:34])
• Ben (on aging legends): "...these guys won't have to wonder whether they had something left...the game was telling me that it was time to walk away." ([98:15])
• Meg (on the York Revolution’s Pride stance): "I appreciate the unequivocal nature of ownership's response to this, that they still...went forward with a celebratory event and sort of made additional commitments within the community." ([82:32])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Meneses & Brebia call-up celebration: [00:38]-[03:25]
• Mike Trout injury, All-Star Voting/Game: [04:03]-[06:30]
• Blue Jays All-Star voting dominance: [07:12]-[13:38]
• Dylan Dingler appreciation: [14:20]-[19:35]
• Home Run Derby format changes: [21:27]-[31:27]
• MLB Amateur Draft/International Proposal Deep Dive: [32:10]-[71:48]
• York Revolution’s Pride Night response: [73:03]-[85:18]
• Giants/Devers pinch running mini-drama: [86:12]-[89:41]
• Scherzer & Verlander aging/retirement questions: [89:44]-[99:40]

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Summary & Conclusions

• Player & Fan Joy: The small victories of old favorites returning can brighten the baseball landscape, even as stars succumb to injury and age.
• All-Star Process Debate: The All-Star Game continues to be a stage for both passionate fandom and curious voting outcomes, raising ongoing debates about fairness and the spirit of the event.
• Proposed Draft Overhaul: MLB's sweeping changes to the amateur acquisition system are framed as progress but seen by nearly everyone else as a transparent effort to reduce costs, stifle player earning power, and dampen the sport's future star impact.
• Derby, Drama, & Inclusion: The evolving Home Run Derby, controversial off-field sagas, and debates over inclusivity reflect a sport in flux—still wrestling with tradition, identity, and what it values.
• Aging & Legacy: The fading careers of legendary pitchers offer lessons in both humility and the beauty/tragedy of sport’s unrelenting march forward.

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The episode is brimming with sharp, nuanced argument and deep affection for the game and its stories—from Dylan Dingler to Devers drama to the meaning of minor league baseball itself. Whether you care most about prospect pipelines or the next Derby dinger, this episode has you covered—with humor, skepticism, and plenty of remembering some guys.

Transcript

[A]

It's the zombie runner. Bobby Shands. Bobby Shands. Bobby Shands. Effectively Wild. Joey Menesis. No. Walk off three run digger.

[B]

Stop it.

[A]

Walk off. Three run shot.

[B]

Oh, my God, Meg.

[A]

He's the best player in baseball. Effectively Wild. Hello, and welcome to episode 2495 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs, presented by our patrons, Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer, joined by Meg Riley of Fan Grafts. Hello, Meg.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Well, if I sound in a chipper mood today, it's because former best player in baseball, Joey Menesas and John Brebia are both back in the big leagues. Double whammy. Manassas and Brebia back, and all is right with the world. Not that last part. Well, yeah, it's far from being all right with the world, but these two particular things. All right. I am quite pleased that Menesis and Brevia are back.

[B]

I was gonna say citation needed on the rest of it, but I. I am curious. Do you think you're happier about it than they are? Probably not, but close, right?

[A]

Yeah. It's kind of a photo finish situation, I think. But, yeah. I really did not expect to see Mr. Manassas back in the majors again because it's been a while.

[B]

Been a while.

[A]

Boy. Caught myself in the middle of it, but a little too late. He hadn't been in the big league since 2024, and now he's on the A's after slugging.348. Well, he batted.348. He slugged.539, 348, 401, 539. In an extremely nice 69 games in the Miners prior to the call up.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Pacific Coast League. Thin air. Don't care. Count it. He's up on the A's and Brebia is up on the Rockies. Of course, he started the season with the Rockies, sort of. Or he was with the Rockies this spring, and then he was with the Twins, and then he was cast loose or opted out and then went back to the Rockies. And it would not be an exaggeration to say that I have been checking Brebia's box scores daily. It's. It's appointment viewing for me. Just because. Bre, you're breaking my heart. I'm checking your box scores daily. That doesn't scan. Really?

[B]

But it doesn't scan. It's not.

[A]

No. I've been listening to a lot of Paul Simon lately because I'm going to see him next month, so Cecilia came to mind. I didn't continue singing both despair everyone and also because the next line would be oh Brebia. I'm down on my knees and I thought I should probably stop where I stopped if I ever hope to have him back on the podcast. But he was pitching up a storm for the Albuquerque Isotopes in AAA after he had returned to the Rockies. He had I think an eight game scoreless streak going for them which he has now extended to a ninth game in the big leagues cause they caught him up and he pitched a couple scoreless. So I'm pretty pumped to have these two guys back for however long it lasts. Hopefully they're the rest of the season slash time. But really nice to be reunited with these two today.

[B]

Well, you know it's funny in the case of Manassas at least cuz you're like it's a pcl but like I don't know how does his new home ballpark play? Right? Like yeah, not the worst. He's really just acclimating. It's getting, getting used to to things. It's, it is a little. They've had a, a real flurry of moves that that east team in the last couple of days. On the hitting and pitching side, we seen Reno 60 Day. Not the best. Not the best.

[A]

But it's too bad they didn't call him up in time for that Las Vegas visit. Oh my gosh, juice the stats further.

[B]

Can you even imagine?

[A]

I'm sure he'll hang on and still be a staple in the lineup when they move to Las Vegas permanently. So that's something forward to. Anyway, I was riding high because those two call ups and I guess the price of this is everything else that's wrong with the world, but specifically Mike Trout going on the IL which we had warded off for so long. He had missed but one game and now he's on the IL with a hamstring strain which he suffered while running out a ball. Never do that lollygag everyone at all times. Never hustle, you won't get hurt. And it said because he was still keeping up a pretty impressive performance and durability and now his availability for the All Star game is in question.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which is especially sad for him because it's going to be played in his other home park basically in Philly. And so you know, he's excited about being an All Star near Millville. So fingers crossed, hamstrings cross that he can come back. And he declined to put a timeline on things because he said if I put a timeline on things. I've done that in the past and it's just frustration whether you do hit it or don't hit it. We've been there. Mike, he's not questioning the entire concept of timelines the way that Aaron Judge was. He's not a, a time frame truther. He's just saying for him personally he finds it unhelpful so we can keep our expectations in check. He did seemed to downplay the severity of it and said it got a lot better even overnight after he suffered this injury. So here's hoping that he can be active by next month. But yeah, come back soon.

[B]

Mike, do you think he's done enough that he would be an All Star regardless and they'll just name an injury reserve?

[A]

I think so. Yeah. Now he's not a Blue Jay, which will hurt his chances. But for our non Patriot supporters, we had an extended discussion last last time about All Star voting and the history of certain teams being overrepresented in All Star voting prompted by Blue Jays fans just really showing up to, as David Putty said, you know, gotta support the team. And, and they've really been doing that.

[B]

Yeah, they sure have.

[A]

And we, we talked about how they had basically the top spot or second spot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In on every position in the album and there has since been an update.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Just got an email in our inboxes about the latest tally of All Star votes. I was not aware about the new sponsorship for the All Star voting, but now I am, thanks to this email. It's kind of a crossover with my other podcasting occupation of video games because turns out that it is not just the MLB All Star balloting, it's the Konami E. Baseball.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

MLB All Star balloting. The update is that the Blue Jays have either widened their leads or narrowed the gap between them, their readers. Ernie Clement is now leading all vote getters with more than 2 million votes. I love it. He's lengthening his lead. He's pulling away from the pack. Ernie Clement as if he had NARA already built up a pretty big lead. He is just, he is lapping the league right now.

[B]

Ernie Clement. And, and look, no disrespect meant to Ernie Clement. You know, I think there should be more Ernie's. You know, I think Ernie is a fun, that's a fun name to say. Ernie, you know, has sort of an old timey ring to it. And as we've established, part of his vote advantage is coming from the fact that he is the hobbit contingent because he lives with Dominic Monahan. I'm not saying he's unusually small as a person. He's six feet. But this. But Ben, here's the thing about another thing to say about Ernie Clement. In addition to us liking his name, he has a 106 WRC plus. You know, he's been, he's been worth about a win by our accounting of things. He has seven home runs. You know, he's. He's hitting under.300. None of these things are bad. These are all this is. I mean, I'm sure he wishes it were slightly better, but it's is a useful, productive big leaguer. You know, I'm sure the Blue Jays are thrilled to have him defensively versatile as we know. But also if we're being like really kind of honest about it, if we are applying a critical lens to the voting, we might suggest that the All Star voting portal is the only website that works in the entire country of Canada. You know, that might be a thing. We have to entertain that like the Internet is shut down, but for the

[A]

All Star ballot, nothing else to do. So they just got to keep clicking.

[B]

So anyway, I remain steadfast. I think that some fan involvement in the process is good. We got emails in defense of fan participation in All Star balloting and I am not of the opinion that they should be removed from the process entirely. I know a great many fans, including some of the folks who emailed us, they take the process very seriously. You know, they want the All Star team to be a representation of the best guys, you know, and we got a couple different definitions of what that means, both in our conversation, but also from. From some of our listeners. But they wanted to be the best guy and I applaud their careful consideration of the ballot and the field. And also would just suggest that Ernie Clement's presence suggests not everyone is applying the same rigorous standard. They are satisfied by is Blue Jay or not Blue Jay. And then they've. They vote accordingly. And to be clear, fine way to inter interact with the process. You're a fan, you want to see your guys. You like your guys. Those are, those are the best guys as far as you're concerned. They're your guys.

[A]

Yeah, but also I'd appreciate a little perspective. Not, not complete impartiality, but just, you know, maintain some sense of who might other people want to see. Because you get to see Ernie Clement play every day. That's a real treat for you. If you're a Blue Jays fan, you have that honor and privilege, right? You should say, you know, What I don't want to share Ernie Clement with the rest of you. He's our special second baseman. You all got to appreciate him in the playoffs last year. Maybe this is some belated reward for that. Last time we talked about him last week, I noted that it was a weak field for al's second baseman. I think he was third in WAR at the time. He's fifth or sixth now depending on whether you look at his primary second baseman list or as second base, the actual games that he and others have played. Second base and no other position. So he's fallen down that list a little. But he has climbed the voting leaderboard and there's no stopping him now, I think. And, and so the Blue Jays are either first or second at every non outfield position in the al and they have also improved their standing in the outfield rankings. They now have three outfielders in the top 10. Dalton Varsho, Jesus Sanchez and Miles Straw are seventh, eighth and 10th respectively on the outfield AL voting leaderboard. No Trout still clinging to second there. So anyway it's, it's extremely Blue Jays oriented and I had forgotten last time that John Schneider will be managing the AL squad of course, as is his privilege because the Blue Jays won the pennant last year. So it's just going to be one grand reunion. They can all just charter a plane together and fill up the whole cabin maybe.

[B]

Yeah, I mean it's just like among. And again I. This is a crude, not a crude measure, but it is one measure among many. We could apply to the question but like you, you have to go down to, to 19th on the American League outfield leaderboard and here I am using the positional split as outfielder. Right. We maybe is a little different to your point with primary but you have to go down to 19th before you get to a Blue Jay. That's Dalton Varshow. I'm just saying. And there ties ahead of Varshow. He has the same WAR at this moment as say Wyatt Langford and also Henry Bolte and Cam Smith and but a tenth of a win separates him from Jackaglion and two tenths of a win from Colton Kauser and Taylor Ward and Riley Green. You know and it's, it's not a huge spread at this point. You know there's a lot of compression in those there hills. But I just, you know what it would be nice to do. I want you to decide Blue Jays fans, like who, who are your most important guys and then maybe just concentrate your voting for them. He's 14th virtual is if you're in the primary position, outfielder split. So I don't want to, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I don't want to. Yeah. The Blue Jays outfield collectively is smack dab in the middle 15th and more. Which. Which you would never know judging by the Jays representation in the top 10 here. But yeah, it's like when my daughter wants to take every toy with her when we leave the house.

[B]

Yeah. And.

[A]

And I just say maybe you could pick two or something. You know, just pick a couple. They could have more than two All Stars if they want. But sure, maybe not. Maybe not quite this many. So, you know, consider entertainment value. Consider the privilege of being named an All Star. Consider preserving the importance of it and making the honor something special as opposed to something slightly silly. Anyway, enough said about that. But one of the shames of it, yeah, that maybe is overblown a bit. But third on the AL catcher leaderboard for All Star votes is Dylan Dingler.

[B]

Third. Oh no.

[A]

And Dylan Dingler, you can't stop Dylan Dinkler. You can only hope to contain him. And yet he has a little more than half as many votes as Alejandro Kirk.

[B]

That makes no sense.

[A]

And I'm as big an appreciator of Alejandro Kirk as anyone but a Blue Jays fan. But this season he has hardly played and he has been replacement level when he has. And meanwhile Dylan Diggler is almost single handedly carrying the Tigers back to contention. It's kind of incredible what he has been doing lately. He is the fourth most valuable player in the entire league. Yep, he is that good. He is. Not only has he swung a big bat lately and, and we've sung the praises of Dylan Dingler before and I know that we had Jason Benetti on and he talked up Dylan Dingler and I'm pretty sure on our preview pod this spring we talked about how Dylan Dingler was just about the only Tiger who did not decline over the course of last season. He just got better. And that improvement has only continued this year. He is not only posting a 141 WRC plus with 18 homers, which is more than he hit in 126 games last year. And that's in 70 games this year, fewer than 300 plate appearances. And last year he was quite a good hitter, but he has really upped his offensive output this year. And meanwhile he is also leading the league in framing runs. So he's holding his own defensively too. He's almost doubling the closest contender according to fan graphs. It's closer according to savant, but Both sources have him at the top of the league or the top of the majors for that matter. He has a 378Woba and a 400 expected Woba. So if you're thinking, oh, is he getting lucky or something? No, not really.

[B]

Not really.

[A]

He's just, he's just raking. He's just a star somehow. And he wasn't a complete non prospect. I know he was a second round pick. I know he played in a futures game, but he was not a top 100 guy. I don't think anywhere really ever. And he has certainly surprised me. I know catchers sometimes come along late, they have a whole lot to learn. But what he is doing here, last year was his first full season, anything close to a full season, his second season period in the majors and now he's 27 and he is just completely tearing it up. So it's pretty impressive. It's also wonderful that third and fourth in the American League in FanGraphs war are Cam Schlitler and Dylan Dingler. Just names you see on MLP leaderboards. Just a general appreciation for Dylan Dingler and what he has done. And maybe he should get more all star votes, at least relative to Alejandro Kirk is all I'm saying.

[B]

Yeah, Dylan Dingler and, and to your point from last time, you know, look, I understand you. You love your guys the best, you want to support them. They have a sense of pride and they're not completely like divorced from reality. Alejandro Kirk is intimately familiar with the season that he's been having marked by, you know, not yet being up and running and then getting hurt and, and playing like he knows that. I'm sure that Alondra Kirk is well aware of how ridiculous it would be for him to make the all star team like it. It would be very silly. And as you said, we love Alejandro Kirk. This is no knock on Alejandro Kirk. It is simply an acknowledgment of reality, which is that the guy just hasn't played. He's been, he's been injured. It's not his fault. He didn't join the circus. He's not, you know, he's not derelict in his duties. He's not getting reported to teacher as a truant. He just has been. He's just been hurt. He's been hurt.

[A]

Yeah. And he is not only leading all catchers and framing runs, but he is third in WRC plus and that's minimum 100 plate appearances. The only two guys ahead of him are Ryan Jefferson, Yvonne Herrera, and each of them has played about half as many games as Dylan Dingler has. So he's basically leading all regular everyday catchers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In offense and defense. And he has missed I think seven Tigers games. I know we're sort of spoiled by what Cal Raleigh did last year, barely missing any games and hitting 60 bombs and all the rest of it. This is not quite Cal level, but it's the next best thing. Cal was like a nine war season and Dylan Dingler's on pace for 7.5 war and is only getting better seemingly.

[B]

And I would just say the following to Dylan Dingler. I understand that the Tigers are in uncomfortable territory as far as their place in the standings and some tough decisions are coming Detroit's way and fast as it pertains to their posture at the deadline. But Maybe take Cal's 2026 season as a cautionary tale and take some days off, buddy, because it sure seems to wear. It sure seems to wear on them and then they're not as good and then they get hurt.

[A]

You know, not that the Tigers can afford to be without him.

[B]

I understand that's. You know what, that's always the justification though, isn't it? That's always the reason that they will take a day off.

[A]

Get yourself in trouble.

[B]

That's how you get yourself in trouble.

[A]

Well, one way or another, I imagine he will be selected to the team. And who knows, at this rate, maybe we'll get Dylan Dinkler in the Home Run Derby, which will reportedly feature yet another new format, which in this case is seemingly the old format. This news broke shortly after we recorded last week. It just, it amuses me that we just cannot ever settle on a Home Run Derby format for more than say, two years at a time. If you just, if you go to the Home Run Derby Wikipedia page, there's a, a lengthy history section and then a lengthy format section where it chronicles all the changes. Yeah, and if there's one constant with the Homer Derby, it's that there is never a constant with the Homer Derby and we just tweak constantly and then we tear it up and we go back to what it was, which we all decided at some point that we wanted to change it. And then we change it to the thing. I guess it's a grass is always greener situation with the Derby. But reportedly, according to a athletic piece that was published here, hitters are now going to go back to swings and outs instead of the clock that we have had. So the clock has not been seen in the Home run Derby since 2014. I think so. We have now a number of swings rather than a clock. What I mean to say is the Home Run Derby operated without a clock for the last time in 2014. That was the last time it was clockless.

[B]

I was going to say, have I completely misremembered the Derby for the last.

[A]

I got that back. Yeah. So we're going back to what it was. And now they're going to get 20 swings in the first round and then 15 in each of the final two rounds. And there are always little wrinkles and bonuses, and if you homer on your final hack, then you can just keep going until you fail to homer. And so it can be an infinite number of homers, in theory, if Dylan Dingler is up there. And then in the first round, ties are broken by whichever guy hit a longer home run. And then after that, in the second and third rounds, Ty would be broken by three extra swings a piece. So this has not been formally, officially announced, and MLB and the union have not commented. As far as I know, they're a little bit busy with other proposals and changes. Yeah, we'll get to that. But it's just so amusing to me that every time everyone says, we nailed it, this is it. We have perfected the Home Run Derby, right? Then a year or two goes by and suddenly, well, what if we could tweak this? And then suddenly we wind up with the system that we had previously that we decided we wanted to do away with. So it's just. I mean, there have just been little tweaks. Like, literally, I think it was 24 and 25. It was stable, but before that there were changes entering the 2024 edition, and then it was the same format from 2021 to 2023. And then there was a change going into 2021, and it was the same from 2015 to 2019 and then. And there wasn't one in 2020. And so every few years we just got to go back to the drawing board with the Derby. And I do understand. I guess I sympathize because there are always some complaints, I guess is the thing. Even though I said sometimes it seems like we finally cracked it, no one ever really agrees that it's perfect. And you're never going to get everyone to agree on the ideal derby format. So you're just looking for a consensus, a majority, a plurality of some sort of.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And this is presumably Netflix driven. I would imagine Netflix has some significant input here because Netflix is broadcasting the derby, and I don't know whether the players wanted this too. Because the sluggers get gassed sometimes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they are swinging an awful lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And from a spectator perspective, the thing that has bothered me and the thing that makes me mildly pleased about this, I guess, is that it was just frantic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you were just doing it based on the clock. You were incentivized to swing as frequently as possible. And so people wouldn't wait for one ball to land before the next lob would be coming in there, and then the next meatball would be going out. And so you wouldn't have any time to appreciate the trajectory of the dingers, which I think was a loss because it just. It felt so frenetic. And it was like, wait, where did that one go? And how far was that? And, oh, suddenly he's swinging again, and I can't keep track of this. And maybe in person, that's not so hard to manage. But when you're watching on the broadcast and you've got a Chiron here and a Chiron there, and there's a bottom line and there's stat cast stats all over the screen and everything, it's just hard to. To track what's happening. So part of me is pleased that we're going back to a set number of outs or swings, homerless swings. But there was a reason why we changed from that to what we have had lately. Right. I guess. Part of which is that it took a really long time and it.

[B]

Yeah, it could drag sometimes.

[A]

Yeah. And it still has. I mean, it's still like a real. It's a marathon, not a sprint. It's like you're really settling in even if you don't have Chris Burbin out there. It's just, you know, you're in it for the long haul. Yeah. And so maybe it'll be an even longer haul, but I kind of like it just in a. Keep it a bit more manageable for viewers at home.

[B]

Yeah. I think it can. It can be really hard to sort of keep track of what's actually happening when it's purely the clock. It. It can really drag ass, though. So that's like the. And not, you know, just when Cal's in it. I don't know quite what the right mix is. I do think that the swing format offers the greatest. Even with the clock from a. From a home viewing perspective. I think that the tension ratcheting is easier to follow with the swing format than the time format necessarily, because it's really. It's just so hard to keep track of. Like, you're trying to Watch both the ball land and the guy hit. And that can be kind of disorienting with the clock. I think it's just a lot easier to keep track of where he stands in his potential to keep hitting homers if. If it's a matter of swings. But, yeah, I can. It kind of can kind of drag. But I'm with you. I think all of them are at least fine as formats go. Ultimately, it's a very fun event that doesn't matter very much. Right. And I know it matters to the guys, and it certainly can be like, an important stage for a player, like, sort of announcing himself to a national audience. So I don't mean to downplay the role it can have in a guy's career. Like, you know, our understanding of Pete Alonso was, like, fundamentally altered by his derby performance. Right. And even guys beyond that, like, remember Julio's good derbies? Like, that was really cool. And Cal winning the Home Run Derby had this, like, import was, like, a part of his narrative last year. And so it can. It can mean something to guys and it can bring guys to fans attention who they might not otherwise know. But ultimately nothing's being decided. Like, I don't think of the results of the derby as, like, determining my understanding of who the best home run hitter in the major is.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, a lot of times some of the very best ones don't even end up participating. So, you know, I think that there's room for experimentation there. I hadn't thought about the Netflix of it all. So we are going to have a new crew for that. I'm going to reserve judgment on that piece of Is Jameis Winston. Why are we doing so much James Winston. Why is he everywhere? I don't understand. They're putting him and Gronk on a soccer podcast. I'm sorry, but, like, like, not. Not our best and brightest, necessarily, those two.

[A]

You know, I don't believe he's on the derby crew because he was.

[B]

He was on the opening night crew, remember, like. Or he was there. We had to spend a lot of time with him during that game for reasons that I'm still not quite clear on.

[A]

So I don't know. Yes, it is a cast of thousands, or at least several, though we actually, we got an email the other day did. Offering us availability for interviews with members of the Netflix Home Run Derby announcing crew, including L. Duncan, Anthony Rizzo, Matt Vasurgen, Cici Sabathia, Hunter Pence, Lauren Chatti, Michael Irvin. Just throwing in Michael Irvin there. Michael Irvin at The end. Why you have to have someone from another sport, apparently, just to. Okay, it's a Netflix special. It's just, what if people don't like baseball? Let's just throw a football player in there. People will capture.

[B]

We have not exhausted our two sport athletes. You know what I mean? Like, that's the other thing about it.

[A]

It's like, it's true. Can we get. Can we at least get Dion or Bo or someone in there? Brian. Brian Jordan? I don't know. Someone who played both, maybe. Anyway, so, yeah, according to the athletic report, this was done in consultation with players and the league. Netflix sought feedback from the interested parties and apparently the players were worried about getting wiped out. Players wanted this because they would wear themselves out trying to take as many hacks as possible. If this does do anything to encourage more players to participate, then that might be worth it. If there are players who are worried that they're gonna hurt themselves or tire themselves out and that made them more reluctant to participate, I would accept a different format, even an inferior format, if it meant a superior participant field. I don't know whether it will or not, but maybe. And, and I guess it does also mention that there is the opportunity to build some drama because you could step out before your final swing or something, as opposed to just the clock mercilessly counting down. Then again, that's why we want a clock to kind of keep it moving, I guess. Pitch clock, famously popular innovation in Major League Baseball. Maybe less so in Home Run Derby, but yeah. Anyway, I wonder if it's just like, look, we've had the Home Run Derby idea. The TV show was 1960 and the concept goes back before that. And we've had continuously a Home Run Derby involving major leaguers for 40 plus years since 1985. So you'd figure, haven't we fine tuned this by now? But maybe it is a selling point that it changes every now and then because you have a new generation of viewers and they think, oh, we could do this. And the old heads are saying no, they used to do that and we changed to this and believe me, it's better. But then more people will come in to say, oh, it's different, right? Maybe it's just changing it in any way because it's an exhibition and ultimately pretty meaningless. Maybe just not having the same format makes it more entertaining regardless of whether the format is actually better or not.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. I do think you're right, that probably the thing that is determining it more than anything else is the fact that it's on a different broadcast network than it was previously, most likely. But hey, maybe that's an opportunity to reevaluate and say, is this still the way, the best way? Is this the way we like it, the best?

[A]

Well, one of these decades, centuries, we will nail this thing. We will all agree, ah, this is the perfect home run derby format. No, that'll never happen. Okay, speaking of controversial proposals, we got some more exchanges ongoing here, but MLB made a proposal to the Players Association.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pertaining to amateur talent acquisition and development. And just blanket disclaimer here. This is early days. These are just first proposal. This is just, let's throw something out there and see if it sticks and we'll start extreme and then we'll compromise. But even by those standards, this proposal, or at least part of it, was met with a chorus of condemnation, at least in the public sphere. And even going by anonymous quotes from, say, scouting directors, I don't know that I saw anyone really approve of this. I don't know if I saw a single person say, great idea, great proposal, mlp. I don't think this is for anyone except the MLB owners and they are the ones who are dictating these things at this stage. So that checks out. But this is a fairly radical overhaul.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Though I suppose in keeping with recent trends, but really taking it to an extreme, to overhaul the amateur draft and the whole way that player procurement would work. And also instituting an international draft, that's not the surprising part because that was discussed at some length and in great detail in the last round of bargaining. And I wouldn't say they came close to an agreement, but they were close enough that they sort of broke it out from the other CPA negotiations about everything else. And they said, okay, we can agree on this stuff. Let's revisit the international draft in a few months and kind of kick the can down the road. And then they got to that point and they decided that they were still too far apart and then they kicked it another four years down the road. But that there is at least some agreement on the part of both parties that an international draft might be acceptable depending on the specifics. And they were still pretty far apart on how big the bonuses would be. And that's pretty important. But the players were receptive to the idea of an international draft. And I know that there were some objections even within the union because there wasn't great representation of non American players on the, the bargaining committee for the players, the executive subcommittee. And there were players who said, hey, our Interests, our thoughts are not being really represented here. So I don't know how that will all shake out. But in principle, they've at least kind of agreed that there might be something to the idea of an international draft. And it's so complicated that it's hard for me even to say what the ideal solution is. But I think everyone agrees that the current state of affairs is not the ideal solution. Yeah, yeah. You just, you don't want kids signing so young, making these handshake deals when they're barely into their teens, if that. And then all the just exploitation that goes on and just, you know, even if they've ironed out a lot of the age and identity issues, there's still. Yeah, it's just, it's a mess. And so maybe an international draft would help and would be a net benefit. I don't know. There are certainly some downsides. So that's not the surprising part that they have brought that back and repost the international draft. But these amateur draft changes.

[B]

Yeah, the domestic draft changes are profound.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And some of them, them would be kind of fun. Expanding the scope of which draft picks can be traded, for instance, I think would add an interesting dynamic to the exercise, but sort of in total taking together, I mean, I just think it's fundamentally a non starter. This is a place where ownership interest and team personnel interests, to your point, often diverge pretty radically. I also don't know anyone on the team side who is in favor of this particular approach. Some of it is concentrated in the scouting community which has concerns about some of the aspects of this. So we'll get into the specifics here in a second. I don't know many enthusiastic player dev people who like it or are enthusiastic about it. So let's maybe run through some of the particulars here and then we can chat through potential ramifications. So the proposal would cut the draft further. Listeners might remember it used to be 40 rounds. Went down to 20.

[A]

Even before it was 40, it used to be 50. Upwards of 50. It's just, it's dwindling but.

[B]

Right. But the modern, sort of more modern incarnation of it that I think a lot of people were familiar with was a 40 round draft. Obviously they only did five in 2020. They cut it down to 20 rounds subsequent to that. This would reduce it further to 12 rounds. It would eliminate draft eligibility for high school players. It would impose a framework where you have both a distance from high school and age requirement. So draftees would need to be at least 20 years old and two years removed from high school, which means the idea of going one and done at a juco is over. As an aside, like this isn't getting going to be like the most sort of newsworthy part of this for a lot of folks. But I do really worry about what this does to the future of juco baseball. They were already getting hammered by nil and not being able to compete in that space. And if you remove the incentive to go there because it moves up your draft clock, I don't really understand how that's going to be a viable path for some of the best prospects. So now on the flip side of that, you know the, the part of this that is for guys who were going to go to college anyway, they are draft eligible in theory a year earlier, right? Because after their sophomore year, after their sophomore year because there'll be two years removed. And there are draft eligible sophomores now, but they are relatively few and far between. It would also introduce a hard slotting system. So right now major league teams are allocated a bonus pool. And as our listeners no doubt know, those pool, the slot amounts for each pick are not hard slotted. So you can reallocate money from some slots to others depending on the draft strategy that you want to employ. So if you have a very high pick in the draft which comes with a high slot value, but maybe you're not enthusiastic about the very top of the draft, you can sign a guy under slot with your high pick and reallocate that money further down the chain to attract players who you think are better than where you would necessarily take them, but aren't worthy of that top slot. Right. So this does away with the current slotting system, requires hard slotting. The estimate based on what that reduction in pool would do is we would be looking at $400 million coming out of the draft pool just from this year to next year alone. Right. Because you're reducing the number of rounds. And so the, the draft pools would be correspondingly reduced. Part of the justification that is being offered for that is that part of the objection to the league's proposal around the international draft in the last CBA negotiation was that the pool values were quite disparate from one another. Right. Where domestic amateurs were positioned to make a good deal more money out of a draft system than international amateurs. And so part of the league's justification for this is to bring those pools in alignment with one another, have the same amount of money in them. I don't know that we, that we're clear on the number of rounds that would be present in the international draft. So I don't know that we know exactly.

[A]

I think they said 12 in that also was the proposal.

[B]

Yeah, but like, to put it in perspective, like, the average domestic pool for draft bonuses last year was a little over 13 million. Under the new proposal, the average pool would only be like six and a half. A little over six and a half. And there were, I think seven or eight guys last year, seven guys who on their own got draft bonuses in excess of $7 million. And like I said, there are changes around the way that the slotting system works. You would be able to trade draft picks. This proposal does away with comp picks, which is more about the, the revenue sharing changes that were proposed elsewhere by Major League Baseball. But you would be able to trade picks and there are, you know, restrictions on how many picks you can acquire, how many years in a row you can trade away first round selection. So they're, you know, they're putting some guardrails in there around that. It would change, you know, the draft lottery. It would change the combine situation. It would require greater participation in medical evaluation at the combine. It would change some of the stuff around Rule 5, which we don't have to get into. The upshot of all of this, why I think it's useful for us to think about how the league is positioning this, why the league says it's doing this, and then the reality of why the league is doing this. So the league says the reason you do this is one, to bring a domestic and international amateur talent acquisition system in line with each other. You, you take care of the worst abuses in the international space. You sort of are further embracing Manfred's notion of one baseball, right, where everything is sort of coming together. It brings excitement into the league because these players who are going to be closer to big league ready at the time that they enter affiliated ball will debut sooner. It makes the draft more of an event. It makes college players eligible a year earlier in the majority, majority of, of players. And this is true. The league's not blowing smoke here are drafted from the college ranks. So it gets those guys into affiliated ball sooner. It deepens the fan connection and they, they are putting this forth as, as exclusively beneficial to the players. Can I take a counter position to that assertion?

[A]

I'll tell you what the players association said, please. Their response was that these proposals, quote, are flat out bad for baseball and would cripple the next generation of players and damage the future of our game. So tell us how you really feel.

[B]

So we just Talked about Mike Trout. Mike Trout's a great example. Mike Trout was drafted out of high school. He debuted in the majors in his age 19 season. Under the league's proposal, he would not have been eligible to even enter a affiliated ball until a year later. Now imagine you're Mike Trout. You're amazing. You're the best. You get drafted when you're 20. Let's say you only need a year in the minors to get up to speed. You're gonna be ready to go after a year. So you debut, you know, sometime in your age 21 season. Your free agency timeline is now shifted back a year relative to what it was. We don't get Bryce Harper in the majors at age 19. We don't get Juan Soto in the majors at age 19 because part of the other change to the international system is to delay eligibility for those players by year. So under the current system, you have to be 17 by September 1st of the league year in which you sign. Under this system, you would have to be 18. You don't have to be 18 when you sign, but you have to be 18 by September 1st of the league league year in which you sign. So you get pushed back a year. Now, I should also say, because I said that what are some of the good things? College players get drafted earlier. They also indicate that they will not seek a further reduction in the size of the affiliated amateurs in their next CBA negotiations. For now, they would keep it at 120 in the next agreement, but you

[A]

know that they're, they're angling to lower that eventually.

[B]

So. And you know, you're creating this gap where you have the same number of domestic minor league spots, but you have fewer drafted, like drafted guys. Now there will be undrafted players who make their way into affiliated ball. And that is happening more and more now with the existing reduction in the draft size, the size of the draft and the number of rounds that it contains. But, you know, will you be able to fill all 120 of those rosters the way you would? I don't know. So, you know, I imagine that further contraction in that space is certainly something they have in mind down the line. But the biggest impact that this has is that it just, it sets people's clocks back by a year or two if, if you can't be drafted out of high school or if your international timeline is set back a bit. And I will, I will say the following. The international space is so freaking gross. I don't know how I feel about the age change on that one. And I want to think more about that before I commit to a position. I'm typically anti draft as a labor exercise, but the problems in Latin America are so pronounced that I'm more sympathetic to it than I would otherwise be. Because having 12 year olds do some sort of handshake deal with a billion dollar franchise, it's just so fundamentally gross. So, you know, I don't want to be too forceful in my objections on that side because I'm really up to minds about it. If the league would just enforce their own fricking rules, maybe a draft isn't necessary, but they've shown very little interest in doing that. And because they want to draft. Dan wrote today about the various ways he used Zips to sort of reproject some of the notable guys who have reached free agency at a very young age, when they're 25 or 26 years old. It makes a difference. Now, it doesn't take someone like Bryce harper from the $330 million deal he signed with the Phillies to $100 million deal. Right. I don't want to overstate the magnitude on any given contract. I think that. But Dan had Harper's deal with his existing sort of demographic bits intact. Right. So he comes in and debuts at the age that he does. He hits free agency when he does. Zips had him sort of Projected for a 13 year, $314 million deal. So a little less than what he ultimately ended up signing for, but sort of within the ballpark. If you age him by two years, that projection goes from 314 million to 259 million. And if you age him by three years, it goes down to 224 million.

[A]

We basically wouldn't have any prime age free agents anymore. Yeah, and it's, it's rare to have them now, but you do still have some special dudes who come up so early that they hit the open market when they're still 26, 27, and then they really cash in. And then maybe that lifts all boats because they get gigantic deals if they want to sign as long term a deal as they can. And so mlp, I think, wants to tamp down that sort of spending and continue to make it so that free agency is generally seen as an inefficient place for teams to place their dollars. Now, if you don't care about that so much, you could care about it from the fan perspective, which is that we would be deprived of phenoms. We would be deprived of seeing these guys who come up at such an early Age because they're so Precocious. Ken Griffey Jr. Under this system, he would have been Ken Griffey Sr. By the time he read. That's not true. That suffix was taken. But, but by the time he got there, he might not have been able to play with Ken Griffey Sr. And, and maybe he wouldn't have been nicknamed the Kid because he wouldn't quite have been as much of a kid. And with someone like that. Now, obviously he wasn't at his peak when he was 19 or anything, but he was still already a really good player. And we know now in retrospect that we weren't going to get a super long career of productive Griffey after age 30. So it's pretty good that we got Griffey at 19 and 20 when he was still quite a capable player, an all star, even gold clover, etc. And so that excitement that we get out of comparing the pace of, oh, Juan Soto, he's got the most walks through age whatever, he's on a Ted Williams trajectory, or Mike Trout was off to the best start of anyone through age 27, that would be out the window. And it's a small number of guys, but those guys are the most exciting guys.

[B]

They're the most exciting guys.

[A]

We would just lose at least a couple years of their career. And maybe the most exciting portion, like the, you know, when Connor Griffin comes up and everyone's excited now, obviously, like it took him a little time to acclimate and everything, but even Kevin McGonagall probably would have come along a little bit later. There's just, you know, it's not even just the teenagers, and there are some teenagers who maybe shouldn't have even been up at that age or at least probably shouldn't have pitched quite as much as they did at that age. Doc Gooden, Felix, etc, but it's one of the most exciting things that can happen in baseball and we would lose that. So even if you don't care about the economic issue, which we think you should, it just, it would stink to lose out on that. And I say that as a certified college baseball sicko who of course would be extremely excited to get to see these guys go to college and play it. At my favorite level of the game.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But most people were not connoisseurs of the college game.

[B]

You, you were like, I can't believe I missed out on Connor Griffin at LSU. And I can't believe that Kevin McGonagall isn't, you know, a mainstay at Auburn. I, I can't believe that those things aren't true.

[A]

So for me and Michael Bman and a few others, well, this is actually. Huh. Okay, you're telling me more, more college talent. But even so. I'm kidding, of course. But even if you are a, a college baseball sicko, I think there are reasons to dislike this. I mean there's just going to be such a pileup of, of people and roster spots and, and of course there's nil, but most of the nil money is not going to college baseball players and young college baseball players and programs across the country. There's only so much nil money out there for college baseball players. So I get that college baseball player development has improved by leaps and bounds and, and some college programs are super advanced and players are probably in as good hands with them maybe as they are with lower level affiliates.

[B]

In some cases they're in good hands with them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But I think there's still a benefit to getting a guy in your system and having him all the way up the chain. Even if he went to some school that's known for its excellent development. It's, it's still, it's a little bit different from just starting them young in your system and the way that you want to instruct them. And really MLB's rationale here and I'll link to some in depth explainers if your head is spinning about all these proposals we're citing here. There are good write ups. Jeff Passon and Kylie mcdaniel did one.

[B]

Yeah, jj's was at Baseball America.

[A]

Baseball America, yeah.

[B]

Very thorough. And he walks through a lot of these knock on effects. So yeah, there's no one was fooled by this, you know, like that. I think that was the part of it that I found heartening. And that's not to say that like this wouldn't be a boon for college baseball. It would be because yeah, it's definitely exciting to see, you know, a Connor Griffin level talent anchoring LSU's infield. And it would be great to see Kevin McGonagall at Auburn, but I'd rather see Kevin McGonagall in Detroit.

[A]

He's no Dylan Dingler, but he's pretty good.

[B]

I mean, yeah. Who, who among us is Dylan Dingler? You know, what a name, you know, it's just really such a name. Dylan Dingler. Do you think that his parents were like, no, it goes well together. You know, Dylan Dingler. We want him to sound like a prohibition era gangster. It's good. Dylan Dingler. Dylan Dingler, Dylan Dingler that way.

[A]

But yeah, MLP stated his given name is actually Francis. Dylan is his middle name.

[B]

So maybe Francis Dylan Dingler. Now he sounds like even more of a prohibition era gangster. Oh my God.

[A]

Yeah, he has chosen to go by Dylan. This is not a choice that was forced upon him. He had Francis available to him.

[B]

But I, I do not know this of Dylan Dingler. I am merely speculating. I think that sometimes people don't enjoy gender ambiguous names if they're going to be in a hyper masculine setting. So I wonder if Frances just was confusing to some folks.

[A]

Well, MLB's stated rationale here, the league's explanation for why it's doing this and why it's good. And as I've said, each side is out for itself in its own interests. It's a negotiation. That's, that's what they do. That's what you should expect them to do. But the players association will generally say we're doing this because we think this is good for players or this is bad for players and this will cost us money. And here's how much. Whereas MLB will never say that. MLB will never say we're trying to save ourselves some coin here. It's always because of competitive balance. It's always because of this or that. And the stated objective here, quote, by creating a draft system centered around college aged players and making most college players eligible one year earlier, more players will benefit from both a college education and an elite development environment while reaching professional baseball and ultimately the major leagues more quickly. We believe these changes will strengthen college baseball and deepen fans connection to the next generation of major league stars. So they're making it sound like we're just looking out for the best interests of college baseball here. We just want these guys to, to get a good education, we think, but

[B]

only for two years. You know, like that's true. What are we going to make them go to class?

[A]

All four, Partial credit, they can finish up later. But, but you know, just get a good grounding. You know, start your, your liberal arts exposure to worldly ways and, and then they want to reward the colleges for their elite development, sort of taking shots at MLB teams, suggesting that colleges are more elite at development, which seems somewhat suspect, but really I don't see how this will deepen fans connection unless you're a real college baseball fan. And maybe there would be more college baseball fans in this scenario perhaps just because we'd have no other way to watch these guys who were sort of artificially prevented from graduating. But I Think in most cases, I don't know that it would deepen fans connection because to this point at least, fans tend to be more invested in players when they are in professional baseball than in amateur ball. And I don't think MLB particularly cares about strengthening college baseball. I think MLB wants to offload the expense of development on other parties. They don't want to pay for this stuff. If other teams can do this and take it off their plates, then they're happy to have that happen. If they can further suppress free agency dollars, they're happy to have that happen. If they can cut down on draft bonuses, they're happy to have that happen.

[B]

They can reduce the size of amateur staffs.

[A]

They can, yes. And if ultimately this leads to fewer minor league teams, lower expenses, then they're happy for that to happen too. And as we have discussed and you have written, we think there is just a good in making high level professional baseball widely available because it's nice for people to be able to go to a pro baseball game without going to an MLB game, which can be quite expensive and obviously is not conveniently located for everyone. And yes, there's indie ball and there's college ball and you know, there's lots of great baseball out there, which I'm not downplaying. But to have minor league baseball and affiliated baseball in a vast network across the country I think can only help instill a love of baseball in many fans and make you feel more connected to the majors. Even if it's a long way away, even if it's several rungs, even if most of the guys you see are not going to make it to that level, you still feel connected because you follow a farm team and also college teams and coaching staffs. Their best interests are not always aligned with the players. I think just because of the scrutiny that's been leveled against guys who will work pitchers into the ground or whatever, who are actual prospects, I think we see less of that abuse going on there. But sometimes colleges, they just want to win. Those coaches want to win at that level. They don't necessarily have the players long term interest in mind. Especially now when there's so much player movement and there's the transfer portal and everything. And it's not like you can count on keeping these guys. Plus after two years they're going to be gone anyway. So how invested are the colleges and the college coaches going to be in these players futures? So for many, many reasons, this is clearly primarily a cost cutting move and one that I do think would hurt the future of baseball in a lot of ways, specifically the amateur proposal here. So it's just a proposal. But even the idea that they had the audacity to propose something like this, which the players were not shocked, they had expected something like this, but still it is drastic.

[B]

Look, I want to someone who actually does appreciate college baseball, I want to say the following. I don't think that the idea that that is a area of baseball broadly understood where there is meaningful and significant growth potential in terms of sort of cementing a relationship to the sport. I don't think that that's, that's ridiculous to say. I know you don't care and that's fine. But if, if anyone has been watching the College World Series, which you know, concludes later today as we are recording on Monday, the, the men's College World Series, I should say softball's been done for a minute here, but people are crazy, go nuts for college baseball. It is wildly popular and not just in the south, although, boy, is it popular in the South. And so I think the idea that combining the sort of fervor that individuals have for their alma maters with the sport is a way to bring more people to baseball. So I don't think that that's a completely ridiculous thing to say. I also don't think it's the responsibility of the MLB PA to facilitate and so my interest in, in baseball sort of keeping some of their best guys, Major league Baseball, I should say affiliated pro ball, keeping some of their guys in the college game rather than drafting them out of high school, I don't, I don't see that as particularly compelling. But I do want to acknowledge that like the place that college baseball has is, I think important to the long term health and sustainability of the, the sport. Having said that, and I think that there are many programs in college ball, especially in the Power 5 conferences, that are doing a very good job from a player dev perspective that have, you know, particularly as it pertains to pitching, really upped their game. We have seen a number of coaches from the affiliated ranks make their way to college ball and we have seen them succeed there. But I still think that the yardstick against which they are measured is pro player dev. And if I'm good at player dev, I don't want to outsource that to LSU or Texas or Georgia. No offense to West Johnson, but I want to do that. I want to help that guy refine his swing. I want to help that guy figure out his optimal mix. I want to be figuring out his natural supination and pronation tendencies and then building a repertoire on the back of that. You know, it's funny to sort of put this proposal within the context of the league stated desire for greater competitive balance because sure, the Dodgers are always in the room with us when we're having that conversation. Right. And they have shown how an organization with a tremendous amount of financial resource can weaponize very good player dev and use it as part of their sort of perpetual motion machine of contention. But you know, if I'm the race or the brewers, maybe I just want to get my hands on that guy. You know, maybe I, I don't want to leave it to Georgia to take care of. I want to do it. And when you combine like sort of delaying for the high school guys, the player dev relationship, I guess you can make the argument that you're expediting it for the existing college player pool. And so I don't want to overstate the case, but, you know, you combine that with the introduction of hard slotting and what that's going to do to teams, draft strategies. If you want to take a go wide approach in the draft, that's over. You know, you can't really do that in the same way as you could before. You can't underslot your top guy and then go get a bunch of interesting high school arms, you know, so the entire exercise to me seems to be about money, obviously, but the, the effect of it is to narrow and standardize player dev, draft strategy and acquisition. And I don't think you get a better brand of baseball when you do that. I think that you get a more monochromatic brand of baseball. And that's even setting aside whether you're going to be able to retain interest from the same talent pool. If you. Let's imagine that you are a high school senior, senior Ben, and you are a really talented baseball player and you're also being recruited to play wide receiver. And you are comparing the nil money available to you in baseball or in football, which are you choosing? And this is a dynamic that admittedly already exists.

[A]

So I don't, you know, we don't even have to pretend I was in that very situation.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And then you were like, I must recruiters coming. Yeah. And I just, I said I have to enter the media, a thriving, expanding industry.

[B]

Right. One with a ton of security as much as professional sports. So if you want to say we need to make dramatic changes for the safety and well being of international amateurs, I'm open to that conversation. You know, it's one that neither side was so committed to that they didn't just punt it right the last time around. But I'm open to that conversation because there's some really gnarly stuff going on down there and it needs to be sorted out in a way that centers the well being of these kids before they become pros. Right. And we need to understand them as kids first and professional athletes second. But as it pertains to the domestic draft, this is not only a money grab on the part of the owners, but also subtly like kind of like weird little attempt to fracture the interests of the, of the players association. Because if push comes to shove and you have to take $400 million out of somebody's pocket, it's going to be

[A]

non members of the union.

[B]

Exactly. You take it out of the Internet, out of the amateur, your pool, are you taking it out of your existing membership? And historically, and I get accused of being in the pocket of the union. So I'm going to say something. Historically they have said, and I'm going to do a swear and I am being hyperbolic, but when do I get the opportunity to say this? Historically they've said those kids, we're keeping, we're keeping the money for our members.

[A]

Yeah. And even though you have minor leaguers in the union now, you don't have amateur players.

[B]

So you don't have amateur players. And, and so I imagine that the version of this that we get, the ultimate direction that the draft will take is going to look very different than this proposal. Part of what facilitates the money in this at all is their cap and floor system with a 5050 revenue split. Right. Like, so some of the financial piece of this doesn't really make a ton of sense in an environment where you just, just have a system that looks pretty similar to what we have now with changes at the upper bounds around the luxury tax. There's no real need to do any of this. So there's no need to do it in that system either, to be clear. But part of what is motivating this is that, and you're right, when Bruce Myers responded to, in sort of longer form to the league's cat proposal, part of what he pointed out is that the money doesn't make sense unless you are dramatically curtailing the amount of money spent in the amateur space. And guess what? He was right. So, you know, I think that this is, this is bad for baseball. It's bad for the players because they make less money. It's bad for the players because I think that they are better off having the potential not only to make more money later in their careers, but if they are one of those sort of shooting star, it makes sense to draft them out of high school guys to be in the warm embrace of professional player dev. I also think that, like, this is not good for player dev staffs. This is not good for amateur scouting departments. If you are removing eligibility for high schoolers, you can, in theory, maybe you can run a leaner staff or at least justify doing it. Because if all you're doing is scouting the college guys, well, all that's on video. You don't need somebody to go to a showcase. What does this do to the ecosystem, the economic ecosystem that has grown up around the game for showcases and travel ball and all of that? Now those guys are making a little less money. You're not going to see me crying over it. But the ripple effects of this are fairly profound. And I think that I won't say that the league didn't think about any of those things. I just don't think that they, in this version of it, particularly care about that. Because if they can take $400 million of draft bonuses out of the pool and set themselves up to eventually justify further reduction in the minor leagues at the size of the Miners, great. They'll do it.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I know you and Bauman are taking in the combine this week, so enjoy it. Amateur baseball while this is looming, if

[B]

I can be a little bit snarky for a second, and I understand that the real motivation around all of this stuff is the money. And so I don't think. I don't want to make it seem like. I think Rob Manfred is, like, so singularly obsessed with making the draft a TV event that he is, like, trying to reshape the entire amateur baseball ecosystem just to get the very best boys there on draft night. But, Ben, and there's. There are provisions in this proposal where a certain number of players would be obligated to attend the draft and they'd be paid for their time. But I'm like, how is that legally enforceable? But they get like 50k to be there. They held the draft. So everyone will remember the last year the All Star Game was at Truest Park. The draft was like, right next door to the park. So it's in it. Well, it's not in Atlanta, to be clear, but it's in Cobb County. It's in Georgia, famously a baseball hotbed next to a bunch of other baseball hotbeds. They didn't have one kid at the draft last year, they. They had guys who were 20 minutes down the road and decided they'd rather be at home for the draft. You want to reorient amateur your acquisition around that event. Really?

[A]

Really, really.

[B]

And so I think that we don't have to linger on it too long, because the. A draft event that rivals in excitement and scope, something like what the NFL puts on. I think even Manfred, who really wants the draft to be a big deal, understands that that is a pipe dream. Like, that's not going to happen. And so it's not a primary motivator for this proposal, but it is hilarious because I was like, oh, yeah, that's really gonna be the showcase event.

[A]

Like, yeah, that'll do it.

[B]

It was. It was so funny. Like, there were all of these beat writers who were there, and they're in town for the All Star game in the derby, but they're just walking around like, why. Why am I at the draft? Why am I here? I have to go get on the phone with my. With the GM of the team that I cover. Like, I have to go listen to his draft call. I can't even talk to the kids. He just drafted. And there's been variable participation. Right. So it kind of depends. Like, in Dallas, which, again, the draft wasn't in Dallas. It was at the stockyards at Fort Worth, which, like, I mean, you just need one person in the room to be like, so, hey, we want to do the stockyard thing for our draft event. Anyway, there were a bunch of guys who went to that. You know, there were a lot of guys there, and it did change the dynamic of that event in person, and I think it made the event more fun to watch on tv, I would imagine, because they had a bunch of guys there. But, you know, when you have to incentivize their participation with money, and I bet some of the NFL guys get paid, too. I. I would guess I don't know that one way or the other. But anyway, I don't care for a Ben, and it's fine, because I think ultimately it's not going to amount to much, but a certain pain point in negotiations. So there you go. Yeah.

[A]

The draft as an institution is already a means of suppressing salary. Just be happy with that. You have to suppress it even more. It's not suppressing it quite enough. It's. People were circulating the Steve Cohen tweet from five years ago that I'm sure did not endear him to his fellow owners, where he said, education time, baseball draft picks are worth up to five times their slot value to clubs. I never shy away from investments that can make me that type of return. So even if sometimes you have to pay a bid on the back end because one of your blue chip guys pans out and you were paying him pennies on the dollar for the first several years of his career relative to what he was worth on the open market, because he wasn't on the open market because of the draft and because of the pre free agency system, every now and then someone slips through and actually makes some money. Money up. Gotta crack down on that.

[B]

And this is the thing about it, and I understand, I want to head off some emails here, not that we always get annoying ones, but like, I understand how capitalism works, right? And I understand that the sort of driving desire on the part of owners is to make as much money as possible not only by maximizing your revenues, but by minimizing your expenses. So I understand what they're to going, going for here. But as I've said before on this podcast, it just really does cost money to run a business Sometimes you guys, it really just does cost money to run a business and a bunch of you are sitting in parks that you didn't pay for. So put your money where your players are. You know, put your money into your dev staff, put your money into your scouting staff, put your money into your front office, put your money into your business. Because Cohen's right. When you look at the value, sort of accumulated surplus value in the Miners relative to the actual cost of running them, both from a salary perspective and the upkeep of the minor league system. So, you know, they have to house them now, they have to feed them, they have to pay them for training in the off season. Pennies on the dollar relative to the surplus value that's down there. You just sometimes have to spend some money. Okay.

[A]

Okay. All right. Well, this I don't want to linger on long because we already did. But just to close the loop, and I'm going to accentuate the positive here, okay? The Giants pride night saga got even stupider after the last time we talked about it.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Because the U.S. department of justice, which is less aptly named by the day, seemingly has launched an investigation into whether Major League Baseball discriminated against three San Francisco Giants players on religious grounds when it warned them that they can't inscribe Bible verses on their caps. And the Assistant Attorney General sent a letter to Rob Manfred saying that the matter has been referred to the Equal Employment opportunity commission. The three players expressed their opposition to MLB's pro pride orthodoxy. The Civil Rights act prohibits MLB and its franchises from unreasonably burdening the rights of players with religious objections to serving as the league's vehicle for Pro Pride messages.

[B]

It's a hack.

[A]

Never mind the fact that there weren't actual fines that they could opt out of wearing the cap and just wear the regular one if they wanted to. This is now advanced to the point where even the players themselves are saying this is sort of ridiculous. Which, look, maybe they got more than they bargained for, but they did sort of start it. But even J.T. brubaker is saying, I don't think it's discrimination. It's just people getting a hold of something and turning it into something. I just wanted to put my message and my beliefs out there and that was the end of it. Well, that certainly wasn't the end of it. Once you put your message out there, it will be seized on by others, but even the players involved are suggesting that this is sort of ridiculous, walker said. I wouldn't say I was necessarily pressured by anybody, MLB or whatever. They're all like kind of mystified by the fact that the DOJ is stepping up to defend their rights here. So this is utterly preposterous and there are so many better things that the government could spend its time on. But the better news, which I'm sure that most of our listeners are aware of by this point, but a study in how you could have handled this, or sort of the diametric opposite of how this was handled is what the York Revolution did. So the York Revolution team in the Atlantic League, highest level of domestic independent ball partner league of mlb, they forfeited a game, an important game, because many of their players would not wear the gear for their pride night. And reportedly it was most of them, which is sort of surprising to me, that fewer than nine players on the 28 man York Revolution roster were willing to play in the uniforms. This is indie ball, guys. You can't, you can't even big league people with this kind of behavior if you're nowhere near the big leagues.

[B]

Bunch of dopes. What a bunch of dopes.

[A]

And this just goes to show, right? Because I mean Clayton Kershaw sort of started this in the majors and he's an influential, widely respected guy and he does it. These Giants players do it. I don't think that's a coincidence. Do you think all these York Revolution guys would have done this if not for these Giants players doing it and it becoming a big story? Because this is evidently the 11th Pride Night that York has held. And this hasn't happened before. So this is backsliding. This is what happens when people put themselves forward as an example and share their message, and people will adopt that message or twist that message or whatever it is. So bigotry begets bigotry and intolerance begets intolerance. And now it sounds like I'm quoting a Bible verse because there's all sorts of stuff about begetting and begatting in there. But this has an influence. And these major league players are influential. And these bush leaguers are thinking, ooh, I could be big league by doing what the Giants are doing or what Clayton Kershaw did. Of course, Blake Trinan came out and commented about this too, and talked about how he was warned last year when he wore the message about Charlie Kirk on his cap. According to Tranquil, Kershaw told Trinen that Kershaw wasn't warned when he did his scripture verse. I don't know. That's hearing it secondhand. And for all I know there was something lost in communication there. But that is what Trinen said, Kershaw said, which would suggest, if true, that perhaps MLP has not been as consistent as it could have been when it comes to enforcing this policy.

[B]

And it wouldn't totally shock me, candidly if there was some inconsistency in the way they enforce this. And if no, you know, you look at Blake Trinen differently than Clayton Kershaw and certainly differently than Landon Roop. Like it? It wouldn't shock me.

[A]

Yeah. Bill Shaken asked the league whether it warned Kershaw, and the league declined to comment on that. But yes, Trinen was talking about how he got chastised by the league and he objects to all of this anyway, so it spread to the Atlantic League, to Indy Ball, to the York Revolution, and instead of saying, well, what could we do? And playing on, they decided that they were going to cancel the game. They were not going to concede that the players could sort of set the policy here. And they put out a statement, a pretty strongly worded statement about this. And you might say, well, how does it serve the purpose to just forfeit and cancel the Pride tonight? Well, they didn't. They forfeited the game, but they still hosted a Pride event as a. A free admission event.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so anyone could go to that. And they treated it as a rain out. So anyone who had tickets for that game could redeem them for any future game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they talked about how they didn't do this lightly, but they wanted to be consistent with their partners and the people that they've been allies of. And they said, to be clear, this action by the players is completely inconsistent with our vision as the most welcoming place in York. And they made a $10,000 donation to a local center. They just kind of did everything you could possibly do to. To express their disapproval.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And it's. It's particularly impressive to me because this is Pennsylvania, and, you know, this is not, like, bleeding heart territory. Right. This is a swing state. And. And I might be talking out of my butt about Pennsylvania politics here, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but this was, I think, a county, York county, that went primarily for Trump. 62% for Trump in the most recent election. And there was a story that I came across that had a headline, how Trump won Pennsylvania and how York county played a key role. So this is not San Francisco. This is not a hotbed of liberal belief. Exactly. Politically speaking or just even within.

[B]

Within Pennsylvania. It's not Philly.

[A]

Right, Right. No. And so that's particularly striking that they took this stance and that they've been doing this for as long as they have. So that's one way you could go. You know, and not saying that the Giants should have forfeited the game, but I'm just saying this is a very strong message. And their GM was saying, I'm disappointed. I think tolerance is not acceptance. I was just asking for tolerance from the team, and they were unwilling to navigate that with me, and they made no bones about it and didn't really pull any punches with the statement or anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And actually, I guess this did happen at last year's Pride Night for York, and I guess they did play the game that time, and they decided that they weren't going to do it again, and that this was, I mean, more than the majority, the vast majority of the team, which is kind of incredible. So.

[B]

Yeah. Although I think there was one player who went to a Pride event. Right. And felt it was important to be present at that event and demonstrate to the fans that the perspective that led to the cancellation, the forfeiture of the game, was not universal on the team.

[A]

Yes. First baseman Jacob Teeter, who said, I came out tonight. Maybe shouldn't have started with, I came out tonight, but I came out tonight because this is a cause that I believe in. This is a wonderful event for a community to come together and just rally around my favorite thing in the world, which is baseball. If I have nothing else in common with the person, but they enjoy baseball. I know that we have a jumping off point. We have a place to. To start a conversation, and unfortunately, there's no baseball to be played here tonight. But it doesn't mean that we can't make this a great evening on a baseball field. So. That was nice. Yeah. That's the other end of the spectrum when it comes to responses to this sort of statement.

[B]

Yeah, I appreciate the unequivocal nature of ownership's response to this, that they still, as you said, went forward with a celebratory event and sort of made additional commitments within the community. From a charitable perspective. Again, I don't know. I don't know what's in all of these guys hearts. You know, I think that when we talked about Clayton Kershaw's behavior, for instance, he struck me more as a mark than anything else. But I do think that there is this disconnect right now between what folks behaving the way that Roop and Trinen et al, are behaving, how they understand our cultural moment and how our cultural moment really is and ought to be. And when you see communities like the LGBTQ community undergoing and experiencing very real institutional and legal threat, it's important to try to counteract that legal threat, but also to. To stand firm and saying that, like, no, these guys are out of step with the way that we understand our community and our community will be inclusive, it will be loving, it will be accepting. It's moving. Trying to move beyond tolerance to something that is, I think, truly diverse and thriving. So I was really heartened by this. And I also do not know the particular political makeup of York as a city. So I also don't want to speak out of turn. I know that it is not in the dead center of pa, but it is, like, kind of closer to Harrisburg than to Philly. So I can make some guesses about some of the surrounding environment. I don't know about the city itself. So, yeah, we don't know. We don't know. But I think that wherever you are, standing firm with your community and saying, no, we all belong here is really good. And that first basement, what a great. Send that set of talking points to the dnc. Somebody else cook for a minute because, yeah, this is like, you have a point of commonality. It's one entry point to a conversation with someone you might not know or understand. And there will be others, you know, And I think that that's true in much broader terms and across a much broader swath of the population than we Always appreciate. And you know, it's probably true. Maybe between, say, me and Landon Roop, I don't know. I'm not going to ask Landon Roop about it. It feels like it's violating some sort of professional code. But, you know, we do have a lot in common as people and we should try to find those points because they're obvious and profound.

[A]

Yeah. Pretty wild that they couldn't even fill out a lineup card with. With enough players who were willing to wear it.

[B]

Do you sit down with your scouts and go like, okay, guys, what happened here? Like, and just, I'm sorry, what a freaking own goal. You are an indie baller. Yeah. What are you doing?

[A]

You.

[B]

You are barely hanging on, man. And you want to be known for this. You wanna, you want this to be the way. This was part of my thing with like Brubaker after the fact, where he's like, I can't believe people are still talking about it. And it's like, well, yeah, man. When you like invalidate really important relationships in people's lives and a fundamental aspect of their identity, they will keep talking about it. And honestly, it's going to be the thing I remember about you, which is, you know, maybe he's happy about that because the other option was that I wasn't going to remember J.T. brubaker's career at all.

[A]

Quite possible. I wish we could just talk about the controversy of Raphael Devers refusing to be pinch run for or attempting to. That's the, that's the Giant subjection that we could talk about now.

[B]

Dude, what's going on with that club that you guys need to. When David lynch said this, he meant it in a different context. But I will say this to the San Francisco Giants. Fix your hearts or die. Like, what's going on over there? You guys are a mess in ways very small and very large. What. What are we doing?

[A]

It was really a rehash, a microcosm of the whole Devers in Boston situation where that didn't really reflect well on anyone. And this is, this is a small minor matter, but it was a clear pinch running situation. The Giants were down by one at the end of the game and Des got on and he is not particularly fleet of foot. And so Patello put a pinch runner in and he'd already been announced, so he was in the game. There wasn't really anything you could do at that point. But regardless, Des is standing there at first base just like waving him off, just not coming out. First of all, have some self awareness about your Skills as a player. Right. Which I understand it's tough to give up your glove for good and DH forever, but running sprint speeds, not your strong suit. Do you want to do the team first thing and score that run? So this didn't reflect well on anyone in this situation either, really, Because I'm reading it as well. Gosh, this makes Devers look sort of delusional slash selfish. But also, would he have done this with another manager whom he maybe respected more? I mean, maybe he would have because that whole Boston saga did have it after all. But you gotta read this as some kind of criticism and reflection of Tony Vitello, too, that maybe there's a little lack of respect there, perhaps that he was so obviously willing to show up his skipper on the field like that. And the Tello after the fact said he doesn't believe the situation warrants a conversation with Devers, citing the daily communication they already have and the competitive nature he wants to see from his players. Yeah, I don't know if this is the type of intensity and passion that. I mean, granted, you know, you tie the game. Maybe Des is thinking, I want to be able to hit and this could go to extras and I could get the. The big knock or something, but come on, if you're pulled from the game, you gotta go. It wasn't some preposterous pinch running situation or something, but yeah, it's a mess over there. It's a mess performance wise. It's a mess interpersonally. And I don't know where the blame lies primarily. Is it Posey? Is it Patello? Is it players? Is it a little bit of all of the above, as it often is, but it's not going well over there in any number of ways.

[B]

What else do you say about it except that clearly we need more college influence in the game? Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's a cheap shot, but it's such an easy one to take. That's what makes it cheap.

[A]

It's true. Maybe Tony Patel would still be coaching in college if. If all the great young amateurs were still there. Maybe he just would have stayed. Who knows? We could send him back there. Maybe that would be best for all involved. I don't know how many Giants players would be sorry to see him go at this stage.

[B]

Oh, boy, what a mess. Yeah.

[A]

And the last thing I'll say, speaking of messes, is that it does seem that we are seeing the sort of sad twilight of Max Scherzer and Justin Verlander's careers. And we talked about this last year and how, well, if it doesn't go great for them and Kershaw, maybe they'll all ride off into the sunset together and then you'd have a heck of a Hall of Fame class when they all went into together and then they had a second wind or seventh wind or whatever it was, right? And Scherzer's pitching in the World Series and Verlander was actually really good for much of the season and Kershaw was one of the Dodgers most dependable regular season pitchers. So they salvaged their seasons and it turned out that they were worth rostering and that it was worthwhile for them, I think, to continue to play. But this year, maybe you gotta say that whatever failings he might have, whatever errors in judgment he might have made otherwise, perhaps it was wise for Clayton Kershaw to call it quits when he did. Because even though I'm firmly on team play as long as you want to and as long as someone will let you and doesn't really tarnish the legacy or anything, it's not like I'm not going to remember how great you used to be. It's been pretty bad for Scherzer and Verlander, who have barely managed to make it to a major league mound this year when they have it has not gone well. But also they've just had a series of injuries just over and over. Scherzer just went on the IL with back spasms. Right. It's one thing after another with him. One. One part heals enough for him to be back in action and then something else breaks down and Verlander has missed most of the season. He made one start at the start of the season and then has been on the IL ever since. He had a hip issue and he worked his way back and he was scheduled to start this past weekend and then they pushed it back and now they've pushed it back weeks, seemingly, and he's on the IL with another ailment now because he hurt a hamstring. I'm on record with. Can't we just do away with hamstrings? I know we need them anatomically speaking, but they're quite troublesome. While he was warming up, he was throwing a pen session and he hurt his hamstring as he was just about to be back from the hip injury and now he's weeks away, best case scenario, from coming back and he's going to have to ramp up again when he gets to that point, assuming everything is healed at that stage. And he sounds Pretty down in the dumps about it. He said, I've always said that I want to play until the wheels fall off. And I don't know, maybe they are falling off. I hope not. Which is, you know, Max Scherzer. I don't know whether he has had the same long, dark night of the soul or whether he has acknowledged his frailty to the same extent. But Scherzer said, if I can't be healthy, and I continue to prove that I can't be healthy, retirement is something that I have to really evaluate. And he said, just really unfortunate. Man just sucks. I don't know what else to say. My hip actually feels fairly good. All of a sudden. My hamstring was bugging me and I had to cut my bullpen short. So people who have reached their age or more advanced ages, I'm sure, are saying, welcome to the club. Get used to it. It doesn't really get better from here. So, you know, this is what happens. It's one ailment after another once you reach this advanced age for a professional athlete and. And they've managed to make it work far longer than most guys do. But this kind of feels like the end. And. And people have said that about those guys before, and maybe they'll have one last hurrah. It'd be nice if they could at least get back in action this season and just show a little flash of something. I know Scherzer got the milestone 3,500th strikeout, so that's good, I guess. But. But was it worth it? I don't know. At this stage, it just seems like they're in pain and also that people are pained watching them.

[B]

Can't believe that you're gonna make me talk about them being too old to play Major League Baseball. The day before my birthday feels targeted. Happy birthday. Thank you. It. It.

[A]

You have so much to look forward to.

[B]

I mean. I mean, my bad back already hurts. Okay. I'm realistic about my ability to play Major League Baseball. Get on board. I just think it's a really hard thing to know. You know, it's really hard to know if you have one more good season in you, if you have one more league average season in you. Guys have bad, weird years in the middle of their careers and they bounce back. You know, you're entirely right. Verlander looked cooked for a while, and then he wasn't anymore.

[A]

Then he had Tommy John at an age when some pitchers probably wouldn't even bother to try to come back from it. And then he came back from it and won a Cy Young Award. And that was, that was only four years ago. And after his rough start last season, he was really effective to the point that I made an over exuberant, bold prediction about how productive he would be this season. Don't think that one's going to pan out for me. But yeah, he, he has been been effective until fairly recently. So you never know when it's going to go for good.

[B]

Yeah, he was a six win player by our accounting of war in 2022. You know like the, he was, he was quite good. He was a available, quality starter and you're right, like Scherzer was. I don't know that anyone felt really great about him pitching in the World Series last year, but he was able to, to do it right. So I, I just think it's really hard to know. I can't imagine what it would feel like to be staring down the end in a career like this. You know, I remember when we talked to Skeens and I asked him about sort of hobbies and like what he does away from the field. Like how do these guys, you know, Scherzer and Verlander, they're further along in their careers, in their lives. I'm sure that they have a sense of themselves else but yeah, they're like

[A]

twice his age so.

[B]

But, but you, all you do is this for so much of your life. If, if you're gonna be a, a big leaguer of their recent caliber, this is what you do. And they have families and I'm sure they have interests but like the core understanding of themselves has to be rooted in this game. Letting go of that would be incredibly difficult to what to coach. Like that's rewarding and I think a lot of guys, you know, there's a reason that there are so many former players in the coaching endeavorings across the league. You know, often they have a great deal to offer. It might be really meaningful to them. It might keep them close to a thing that they're not ready to let go of. But you know, if you look at Justin Verlander's player page on Fancraft, he has 20 years of service time. You know, like I can't imagine. And it's not like, you know, one of the core tenants of building a big leaguer is like, and we will spend the fourth day of the week determining your sense of self away from baseball. You know, like what are Justin Verlander's hobbies? You know, hanging out with your hot wife isn't a hobby. It's it's nice, I'm sure, but it's not a hobby. Right. So I. I can't imagine how challenging it would be to let go of it as a core part of your identity. I have a hard time relaxing on vacation even when I want to. And my job is cool and I'm so grateful to have it. But, like, I have other understandings of myself, I swear away from my job. So it's just really hard to know. And as we out figure discussed before, there just aren't very many guys who get like that one magical final year. Right. And it's really hard on the pitchers. I think that that's far, you know, even rarer than like, you know, like, pool's got to have that nice bounce back. And Ortiz was great in his final season and it was just like. But you don't know. You just don't know.

[A]

Yeah. So that would be the only positive spin I would put on this because you could say, oh, better to walk away a year early than a year too late. It's kind of like the Branch Ricky Maxim about trade timing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But the one nice thing about this is that these guys won't have to wonder whether they had something left, I

[B]

guess, because when you've been in the

[A]

game that long, it's hard. And some guys like Ortiz, like Mike Messina, they just want to go out on top or. Or at least while they're still really good and they feel good about that and they just leave with their head held high. But other guys, if they're too good at the end, then they start thinking, huh, maybe I had more left in me. And then maybe they want to come back. And then maybe they're left with some sense of unfulfillment. I could have accomplished something else. I don't really know what else Verlander and Scherzer could accomplish at this point, but I would take some solace if I were in this situation. A I had a hell of a Hall of Fame career, and I had way longer in the game than most people do. But also, well, now I know that the game was telling me that it was time to walk away. And hopefully I can be at peace with that. And so we can walk away from this episode while I read Justin Verlander 25 things you don't know about me, Parentheses I'm a pretty good dancer. Published by US magazine in 2018. I'm just reading about his hobbies because you question whether he had any.

[B]

I will say you making me tell Contemplate the aging process is rude. Me getting an email from my health insurance, noticing memory changes, the facts about early stage Alzheimer's. What are you doing? My birthday is tomorrow.

[A]

Rude.

[B]

Can't believe I'm going to celebrate my birthday. The Draft combine. That's so funny.

[A]

What better way?

[B]

What better way?

[A]

All right, well, what have we learned today, class? We learned that rather than inspiring other fan bases to cast their partisan ballots for their favorite players, by showing everyone up with those lofty early vote totals, the Blue Jays fan base has only been emboldened by its success, driven to even greater heights of support at the MLB ballot box, we learned that the tree of Home Run Derby must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants and past derby formats. We learned that all my pet players are coming back to the big leagues. Who's next? Rich Hill? And also, yes, I learned some fun facts from Us magazine about just Justin Verlander. Among them, number 19 on the list of 25 things you don't know about me. As of 2018, if I wasn't playing baseball, I would be doing sports commentary for tv. Well, maybe that'll be his hobby. Used to collect baseball cards. Not very interesting. I binge watch everything he said at the time. Well, that'll take up plenty of free time in his retirement. He binge watches everything. He likes dogs. He likes dancing. He likes bacon, egg and cheese sandwiches, KitKats and Oreos with milk and going out to dinner and a movie. He also said, I didn't drink at all in high school, but I had a good time in college. Hey Justin, you don't have to drink to have a good time. He also said in 2018, Number 18, my fantasy is to beat all of the other teams. Well, I've got good news for you. He has. Justin Verlander has recorded a win against all 30 MLB teams. He almost overlooked the Reds as we often do on this podcast. But no, he has one win against them and at least two against every other team team. So having fulfilled his fantasy, maybe he can walk away happy. And Speaking of Justin Verlander's fantasies, I also read this in a 2017 story from US magazine, my source for all news about baseball players. Kate Upton said on Watch what happens live that there is absolutely no sex. That's a quote. Before or after any of her then fiance Justin Verlander's games. Just the ones he started, I think. And it's not that there's no sex at those times for anyone, just not for Kate Upton and Justin Verlander Specifically, she said there's no sex before a game. Absolutely none. What I've just found out is if he plays too well, there's no sex after either. He's exhausted. It's kind of a buzz kill for me. So hey, I guess there's one upside to his never actually getting into games this year. Or perhaps hereafter. Congrats on the sex, Justin. No buzz kill for Kate. Also following up on our episode 2491 about injury prevention and biomechanics, just saw an new study by Glenn Flig of the aforementioned American Sports Medicine Institute. He is the biomechanics research director there and he just published a paper in you'll never believe it. Sports Biomechanics about what else Baseball Biomechanics Title Baseball has an elbow injury problem. Biomechanics may have the solution. Well, you know sports biomechanics. The publication was eating that up. The abstract says as a pitcher rotates his trunk to face the target and externally rotates his throwing arm, varus torque is produced at the elbow to decelerate arm cocking. At least Justin Verlander was getting that kind of cocking on his start days and initiate arm acceleration. With today's pitchers being larger, throwing harder and playing more often during their development years, repetition of large varys torque leads to more UCL injuries. Pitch count limits for games, seasons and per year may provide some prevention of overuse injuries. Varying efforts of pitching instead of maximum effort on every pitch may both reduce UCL damage and also improve performance by throwing off the timing of hitters. Improving pitching biomechanics can lead to both increased pitch performance metrics, ball velocity, spin rate and movement, and reduced elbow various torque. The proliferation of baseball biomechanics and professional baseball universities and performance centers has amplified the potential of biomechanical intervention. In addition, a novel proposal is to modify the baseball itself. Initial research shows reduced torque with slightly increased ball weight and circumference. In summary, baseball has an elbow injury problem. Biomechanics may have the solution. So some further reading if you were interested in what we discussed on that episode. And hey, make the ball slightly bigger and heavier. Maybe that'll solve all our problems. I do believe that player development is more efficient than it used to be that what with all the technological tools available, players are able to improve without spending quite as much time playing. Which is one reason I think that players tend to spend a little less time in the minors these days than they used to prior to a promotion to the majors. You've got pitching labs You've got traject machines. Plus teams are better able to tell today when someone's ready to get the call. It used to be that trial and error was how you figured out if something would make you better at baseball. Well, now you've got the batting cage and the bullpen session and all the instant feedback you receive from the tools you have in there. So no, there's no perfect substitute for in game action, but there are better substitutes than there used to be. And sometimes you hear, hey, why do we need all these minor league games? Baseball could just move to the soccer style academy model. We could cut down on the size of the minors, the number of affiliates. This was sort of a Jeff Lunow initiative. Well, that might be true to an extent. But here's the thing. Baseball games are good. Good for the players involved. Also a public good. Good for the fans, good for the sport. Even if they you could eliminate a lot of games by making development more efficient. Well, would you want to? And there are fewer games in a college baseball season than there are in the season of an affiliated minor league team. This is a your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should sort of situation. Except MLB has stopped to think if it should and it has decided yes, we should because it might save us some money. After all, the point is playing games. Or as Sam Miller once said, the point is to entertain people and make them forget that we are all dying right in front of each other. That this is just this horrible rotten slog to rigor mortis. Speaking of which, two rips to pass along Former major league pitcher Al Worthington died last week at age 97. He pitched in the 50s and 60s for several teams over a 14 year big league career, but he had a break in the middle of his career because he retired the first time because his team, the White Sox, engaged in some illegal silence stealing and he could not with a clear conscience go along with the scheme. So he packed up and went home. A man of principle. And I mentioned this not just because, hey, you don't hear about many players who took that sort of stand. Justin Verlander didn't do it. But also because he is a former Effectively Wild guest and a cold call recipient. Al Worthington was Featured on Episode 1505 of this podcast, Sign Stealing is a Flat Circle. That was an early experiment in narrative podcasting here at Effectively Wild. Still pretty proud of that episode was from early 2020. Go check it out in honor of Al Worthington and another multi time late, effectively wildcast Eddie Robinson. Also another death in the extended effectively wild universe. Gerald Schreiber, the brains behind the Super Pretzel empire, died at 84. Podcast relevant, of course, because Mike Trout in his younger days used to be a Super Pretzel pitch man. His likeness once adorned all those Super Pretzel boxes, which we never would have had if not for the late Gerald Schreiber. And finally, I had a few stray baseball encounters over the long weekend. I read two short books, part memoir, part writing guide, one by New Yorker narrative nonfiction legend John McPhee, who's still with us at age 95. It's called draft number four on the writing process. And I read fiction legend Eudora Welty's One Writer's Beginning. And I mention this because they're both baseball books. Here's page 35 of One Writer's Beginnings. This is Eudora Welty recalling her childhood and upbringing in the early 20th century in Jackson, Mississippi. In my childhood days, a great deal of stock was put in general in the value of doing well in school. Both daily newspapers and Jackson saw the honor roll as news and published the lists and the grades of all the honor students. The city fathers gave the children who made the honor roll free seats, season tickets to the baseball games down at the grandstand. We all attended and all worshiped some player on the Jackson Senators. I offered up my 1/ hundreds in arithmetic and spelling, reading and writing, attendance and yes, deportment. I must have been a prig to Red McDermott, the third baseman. So here's literally Eudora Welty, Voice of the south, winner of all literary awards, remembering some guys, or at least one guy, and I looked up Red McDermott. He got a cup of coffee with the 1912 Tigers. And then, just as Eudora remembered, he played third base for Jackson in 1921 and 1922. Batted about 340 both seasons. No wonder he was a local hero. Baseball Reference says they were the Jackson Red Sox, not the Jackson Senators at the time at least. But red did play third base. And it just goes to show that Red McDermott, who played all of five games in the big leagues, was a memorable figure in Class D baseball a decade after he had been in the big leagues. He was probably a big local sports celebrity. He had been to the show. And you know what? Baseball Reference actually has an entry for 1990, 1923 with Jackson no stats, but in 1923 Jackson's team was the Jackson Senators. Sorry for doubting you, Eudora. Then on page 147 of McPhee's book. He's talking about the storied New Yorker fact checking department and the test that people had to take to get a job as a checker for the New Yorker. And he's quoting a fact checker here who says what we want are people who already know that there are nine men in a batting order, what a Republican is, and that the Earth is the third planet from the sun. That being got past it helps if you speak French, German, Spanish, Italian and Russian. Read classical Greek, have low blood pressure, love your fellow man, and don't have to leave town on weekends. And it got much harder from there. But it begins with knowing how many men in a batting order. And speaking of fact checking, one last stray bit of baseball I was watching the series Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed on what else? Apple tv. It's a comedy crime thriller starring Tatiana Maslany as a fact checker who gets embroiled in all kinds of crimes. The NY NYPD gets involved and there's a police detective, Sophia Gonzalez, played by Dolly De Leon, and she's got a bit of a gambling problem. And here's a short clip from an exchange between detectives in episode five.

[B]

What do you think of the Diamondbacks?

[A]

I think anyone who cares about a baseball team outside their hometown is probably a degenerate gambler.

[B]

There is nothing degenerate about my gambling. Our lives are defined by luck and anyone who ignores that is stupid. You've been mocking me because I've been losing, but eventually the tide is going to come back and the real loss is not being in the game when your luck finally turns.

[A]

Okay, Aristotle, hope the Diamondbacks know your philosophy.

[B]

I think I'll go with the Cubs.

[A]

Good show, but very rude when it comes to paying attention to out of town teams in baseball. It is incredible how pervasive baseball is and has been in American culture. You come across it wherever you look and often even when you're not looking. We know that you pay attention to how the Diamondbacks do even if you're not a Diamondbacks fan, and not because you have a gambling problem, but because you have a healthy addiction to baseball. And that's why you're listening to this podcast and that's why some of you support it on Patreon, which you can do by going to patreon.com effectivelywild and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and gambling ad free and get yourself access to some perks as have the following five listeners Ryan Froehlich, Jason, Matthew Lehman, Rebecca and Jay McDuffie. Thanks to all of you, Patreon perks include a full third episode a week, a monthly bonus episode, membership in our Discord Group, exclusive live streams, prioritized email answers, personalized messages, shoutouts at the end of episodes, potential podcast appearances, fan graphs, memberships and more. Check out all the [e-mail] effectivelywild if you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcast Fangraphs.com youm can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube Music and other podcast platforms. You can join our facebook [e-mail] group effectively wild. You can find the Effectively Wild subject subreddit @r effectivelywild and you can check the show notes in the podcast, posted fan graphs or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We will be back with another episode later this week. Talk to you then. We're gonna crunch those stats. We're gonna talk about baseball sticky stuff and torpedo bats. Talk about it all. If you want good takes on baseball and life, just tune in to Ben and his lovely co hosts Ben and Meg. It's Effectively Wild.