Effectively Wild Episode 2496: Our Daily Breb

Summary

Effectively Wild Episode 2496: Our Daily Breb
June 26, 2026
Hosts: Ben Lindbergh (The Ringer), Meg Rowley (FanGraphs)
Special Guest: John Brebia (Colorado Rockies RHP)

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode of Effectively Wild, Ben is positively giddy to welcome back one of his all-time favorite guests, journeyman reliever John Brebia, who recently returned to the Colorado Rockies' big league roster. The episode features a joyful, wide-ranging conversation about the realities of life on the big league/minor league border, adapting as a veteran player, the evolution of team strategy and player development, and the ongoing MLB labor negotiations. Meg and Ben also analyze recent statistical oddities, trade happenings, the state of the Diamondbacks, and the lore of baseball’s most famous walk-out songs. The episode retains its signature mix of deep baseball nerdery, irreverent humor, and banter ("Can you not be horny about baseball?"), making it both rich in content and engaging for regular listeners and newcomers alike.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening Banter & Guest Introduction

• Ben’s Excitement: Ben expresses palpable excitement for the return of John Brebia both to the Rockies and Effectively Wild, jokingly likening his colleague’s absence to being a “third wheel with a couple lovebirds.”
  • “So pure is my affection for him…” (02:40)
• Brebia’s Recent Journey: The hosts set up Brebia’s story—his odyssey between teams and levels, recent changes to his pitching, and experience on the big-league/minor-league bubble.
• Topics Preview: Changes to Brebia’s game, what life is like on the bubble, MLB's evolving CBA negotiations, and “train daddy” jokes about the Gilded Age and walk-up songs.

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2. Statistical Oddities: Ildemaro Vargas’ Wild Roller Coaster

• Vargas’ Hot Then Not:
  • Ben revisits Ildemaro Vargas' astonishing transformation from a .404 average, National League-leading hitter with a 211 wRC+ (.404/.442/.702 through May 1), to literally the worst qualified hitter in MLB since that point (23 wRC+, .172/.232/.225 since May 2).
    • "It's gotta be like Wiley Coyote...you run off the edge of the cliff and you're still somehow suspended in the air until you look down... What a thing to go from first to worst, basically." (07:00, Ben)
  • They discuss the gambler’s fallacy, regression, and the emotional whiplash for both fans and player.
  • Meg draws a “Flowers for Algernon” analogy, riffing on the fleeting nature of sudden skills and the heartbreak of return to mediocrity.
  • Side digression: Which movie is the “Flowers for Algernon” adaptation? (13:00)

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3. Diamondbacks: Cursed Season Analysis

• Injury Pile-up: Meg catalogs a brutal injury list for the Diamondbacks (Jordan Lawlar, James McCann, Corbin Burns, Christian Men, etc.) and playfully proposes a “curse” comes from not leaning into the snake mascot.
  • “…they are snake bit. And I worry that the origin of your curse is your lack of fortitude in making the mascot a snake." (14:08, Meg)

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4. Cubs, Mets, and Trade Deadline Season

• Cubs’ Desperation: Ben and Meg break down the Cubs acquiring David Peterson from the Mets, contextualizing it as a sign of both teams’ current struggles.
  • Timestamps: [16:53] – Trade discussed; [19:17] – Cubs’ bleak rotation depth
  • “They just... need warm bodies at this point..." (16:54, Ben)
• Mets’ Malaise: The team’s bad defense (six infield errors in one game), negative run differential, and “depths of despair” (Gary Cohen’s quote at 17:32).
• Deadline Implications: Is this a precursor to further Mets moves, or just a stopgap trade?

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5. Jazz Chisholm and The Ballsy Cup Debate

• Jazz Chisholm’s Nutshot and Refusal to Wear a Cup:
  • Chisholm took a nasty ball to the groin, experienced “a million” in pain, but insists he’ll never wear a cup. Ben tries a contrarian defense of sticking with low-probability-risk strategies (“galaxy brain”), prompting Meg’s sharp (and hilarious) rebuke.
    • "Ben, this is the dumbest thing you've ever said your entire time on this podcast Galaxy Brain…” (27:21, Meg)
    • “You gotta protect your business. ...[If] Jazz wants there to be little baby Jazzes someday… wear a cup!” (31:59, Meg)
  • Broader context: Players today are more “cup optional”; generational shifts; stories about Adrian Beltre, Duncan Davitt.

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6. Giants, Pride Night, and Press Conference Fumbles

• Giants’ PR Troubles:
  • Ben and Meg dissect how the Giants (and Buster Posey in a “pointless” press conference) mishandled the fallout of Pride Night opt-outs, comparing it to not wearing a cup (49:07).
    • “This is, this is the PR equivalent of not wearing a cup, I guess, right?” (49:07, Meg)
  • Details of press conference evasions, Rob Manfred’s CYA comments, and missed opportunities for inclusive, deft messaging.
  • Discussion about MLB’s uneven approach to Pride Night uniforms going forward.

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7. Labor Relations & Early CBA Negotiations

• MLB’s Radical (Opening) Proposals:
  • Ben previews the league's sweeping ideas—salary caps, contract limits, and emulating NFL/NBA labor structures.
  • Takeaway: Owners are “shooting for the moon” but may lack the stomach to break the MLBPA; the proposals feel drastic, possibly counterproductively so.
  • “I still continue to doubt MLB owners have the stomach for that this time around. We’ll see.” (53:55, Ben)
  • Meg notes that many proposals are contingent on a cap and thus probably won’t end up in the final CBA.
  • Callbacks to previous MLBPA labor unity and possible sticking points.

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8. John Brebia Extended Interview

Starts: [56:13]

Poolside with Breb:

• Ben and John joke about pale-skin sun protection, pool time, and podcast prestige.
  • “My heart was dangerously skipping beats when I saw your email. ...I almost fell out of my chair for sure.” (58:34, John)

Journeyman Realities & Family Impact:

• The logistical chaos of bouncing between organizations—Tigers, Braves, Red Sox (via illness), Twins, Rockies—and how that affects his family’s life (67:00+).
• “Are we... bouncing around? ...They actually came out to visit...halfway through their trip out to see me when I got called up...packing...chaos...But it’s so worth it.” (66:54, John)

How Minor League Free Agency & Opt-Outs Work:

• Details on how veterans decide to exercise upward mobility clauses, market assessments, and the critical role of a good agent.
• “I try not to play armchair GM...I rely very heavily on my agent...” (68:47, John)

Rockies’ New Approach and Development Philosophy:

• John describes the Rockies’ shift from a reputation for resistance to analytics/modernization, to an organization that’s “the polar opposite” under new leadership; experimentation with pitch calling and incorporation of new ideas (73:45+).
• “Let’s take all this [pitching] information, let’s apply it as best as we can…go through your litany of letters and see what works…” (75:33, John)
• Discussion of pitch calling from the dugout, the “art and science” blend, and how this plays out in practice.

Life in AAA:

• The reality of AAA as a “disruptive” but ultimately worthwhile grind; the challenge of unhappy veterans and constant turnover (87:17).
• Luxuries of MLB: charter flights, superior food, and accommodations compared to the still-improving minor league amenities (90:13; 92:28).

Pitcher Challenges and the ABS Zone:

• John’s feelings about the challenge system (99:34); anecdote about nearly getting to challenge, and how the shifting ABS zone impacts strategies and walk rates.

Favorite Walk-On Song:

• The story behind his iconic, upbeat entrance music ("Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go" by Wham!), selected serendipitously by a Charleston River Dogs radio announcer (104:48).
  • “It’s a classic...the fans loved it…songs don’t really do it for me...fear does it for me.” (104:48, John)

CBA & Union Issues from the Player’s Perspective:

• Inside player conversations about the CBA; resounding player unity and the importance of everyone being informed (“Even if you don’t think it’s interesting, it impacts...a lot.”)
• "I'm an extremely petty person, though, so I'm like the last person in the world you want negotiating, because I will die on any hill. ... If the owners say no [to wet wipes], I'll never play again. I'm standing strong..." (110:07, John)
• Ben and John discuss the difference in attitudes between now and prior labor showdowns, unity in the MLBPA, and the role of veteran mentorship.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Regression:
  • “It’s gotta be like Wile E. Coyote...you run off the edge of the cliff and you’re still somehow suspended in the air until you look down...” (07:00, Ben)
• On Cups and Nutshots:
  • “Ben, this is the dumbest thing you’ve ever said your entire time on this podcast...” (27:21, Meg)
  • "Nut up and wear a cup. What’s wrong with you?” (33:41, Meg)
  • “Only you have the balls to say it.” (34:34, Ben)
• On Minor League Travel:
  • “The flights...such a luxury...for anyone who has been stuck in an airport line... the ease of getting through an airport onto a plane... so dramatically more comfortable..." (91:42, John)
• On Transitioning Teams:
  • “...when you call guys up, it’s to be in a little bit more of those extended roles. So yeah, this year I’ve stretched out a little just to make sure I can go two innings... do what you can out of necessity and what the team needs.” (108:32, John)
• On CBA Unity:
  • “There’s probably more unity heading into this CBA...a very different sense of unity.” (113:18, John)
  • Bruce Meyer: “Anybody who's banking on Major League Baseball players cracking, it's never happened. It's not going to happen. That's why we're the only ones who don't have a salary cap.” (After-recording summary, 116:56, Ben)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:39 – John Brebia’s guest tease
• 02:40 – Ben’s love letter to Brebia, minor league free agent draft implications
• 04:24 – Ildemaro Vargas “from first to worst” statistical fall, “Flowers for Algernon” analogy
• 14:08 – Diamondbacks injury spiral, “snake bit” discussion
• 16:53 – Cubs and Mets trade breakdown; Citi Field infield error game, “depths of despair”
• 27:21 – Jazz Chisholm’s cup controversy and “nutshot” debate
• 39:01 – Giants’ PR and Pride Night debacle
• 49:07 – Uniform policy fallout, league tendencies, future of Pride Night events
• 56:13 – John Brebia interview begins
• 66:54 – The havoc of uprooting family on short notice
• 73:45 – Rockies modernization and approach to pitching, role of analytics
• 87:17 – Life and mentality in AAA, motivation and morale
• 99:34 – Pitch challenges, ABS zone, and rule/strategy adaptation
• 104:48 – Brebia’s walk-out song origin story
• 110:07 – Player perspectives on CBA, unity, and labor strategy

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Episode Tone and Style

The hosts blend deep, empirical analysis with playful, personal banter and humor, exemplified in segments like the “Flowers for Algernon” and cup-wearing debates—and John Brebia matches their tone, offering self-effacing, candid insight into life on the margins of the big leagues. The episode is a showcase of Effectively Wild’s trademark: a love of the game’s numbers and its human stories, irreverent but never cynical, accessible yet detailed.

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For listeners looking for:

• Latest trade and injury news with sharp analysis
• Empathetic, humorous look into baseball’s weirdest stories (on and off the field)
• A rare inside perspective on labor relations, minor-league realities, and journeyman life

Effectively Wild Episode 2496 delivers all the above in characteristically “wild” fashion.

Transcript

[John Brebia]

Number one fan Grass baseball podcast.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The stat cast is stat blast tops. Plus when the stats need contrast, zips

[John Brebia]

and steamer for the forecast.

[Meg Rowley]

Hello, and welcome to episode 2496 of Effectively Wild, a FanGraphs baseball podcast, brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Reilly of fangraphs, and I am joined by Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer. Ben, how are you?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, considering who the guest on this episode is, you know how I am.

[Meg Rowley]

I do.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Never been better.

[Meg Rowley]

I know you're thrilled.

[Ben Lindbergh]

John Breby is back, folks.

[Meg Rowley]

Back, back, baby.

[Ben Lindbergh]

In the big leagues. Back on Effectively Wild. So I will have an extended conversation with him later on this episode, which you were invited to. To be clear, I'm not trying to brea block you or anything. I know, but you. I think you. It's kind of like, you know, when you're. You're third wheeling it with a couple lovebirds and you invent a reason to get out of their hair kind of thing. And I said I would welcome a chaperone. You know, if you wanted to accompany us like it's the Gilded Age or something, and, you know, you had to. To walk a discreet distance behind us just to ensure our virtue is intact or whatever, then that would have been totally fine. But you were considerate enough to just say no. You. You have them all to yourself.

[Meg Rowley]

You said I could be the chaperone. I was like, well, you don't need a chaperone. And then you went off to have your conversation. I was like. You said the word chaperone maybe suggested I should have interrogated the necessity there a little bit more closely. But I have confidence in your professionalism, Ben, you know, and your ability to be. Well, you know, to clear a bar of being socially normal.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That walk right up to the line, but not over it.

[Meg Rowley]

Not making me feel better about it, though. You're making me nervous now to listen to your conversation, which seems bananas. So anyway, here we are, you know, Gilded Age. Coming back. Coming back. Gilded Age.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well aware. Almost as excited about that as I am about Brebia being back, but not quite.

[Meg Rowley]

If you started referring to Brebia as train daddy, then we would be in trouble, Ben. You know, we would have. We would have gone past the line. But you wouldn't do that because, well, one, it would be weird and sort of divorced from his profession and. And you know, he's not a brunette, so it doesn't. It doesn't work. It doesn't fit.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, yes. Well, it all went great, so don't worry and everyone will enjoy that conversation, I'm sure. But yeah, I kept the faith. You know, it's like the John Lennon song, Nobody loves you when you're down and out. I still did when he was down, but he wasn't out and now he's back up. And so pure is my affection for him that it didn't even dawn on me until days after he was promoted that this has serious minor league free agent draft implications because I'm locked in a bit of a battle with Other Ben and Other Ben drafted John Brebia in the minor league free agent. Yeah, he sniped me and I didn't even think about that. Even though of course I want to win the minor league free agent draft. Didn't even occur to me because I just care about John Brebia being back more than I care about my fortunes in the minor league free agent draft. Clemens has Brebia and Brett Sullivan both both sides of the Battery in Brebia's Rockies debut the other day. So we will talk about his odyssey. He's been with a number of organizations over the past year. So we will talk about his journey, the journey that the man has made. He is in the journeyman phase and we'll talk about changes he has made to his pitching. We'll talk about his entrance song. We'll talk about what Triple A is like, what it's like to be kind of on the cusp of the big leagues and trying to find a spot to be back up there and the differences among the levels and also some CBA stuff we will discuss as well. So lots to talk about with Mr. Brebia. I do want to bring up a few things before he joins. First, remember Ildemaro Vargas?

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Remember when everyone had Ildemaro Mania and he was batting.400 and he was one of the best hitters in baseball. I think we all kind of understood, okay, this is fun. It's probably a bit fluky and I don't think anyone really bought that this was a new Ildemaro Vargas and he was just going to be a superstar from now on as a 34 year old utility type. But we enjoyed it for what it was, I think. And the high water mark. At least once he got a little bit of playing time under his belt. He was batting.404 through May 1st. So at the end of May 1st he was batting.404-42-9702. He had a little bit of pop there too. Yeah. And he was the best hitter in The national league. He had a.211 WRC plus which was number one in the national League among all qualified hitters through that point. Only Ben Rice barely was ahead of him in the majors. And we all forecasted some regression. Okay. But I don't think I anticipated quite how hard the regression was going to hit him. And I know he drove in a couple runs on Wednesday, but. But he has really gone south to the point that he was the best hitter in the league over that span through May 1. He has been the worst hitter in the league since then, literally the worst by a lot. So if you, yeah, if you start the clock on May 2, since then he has played 46 games. So he played 24 games, a hundred plate appearances even through May 1. And he had those eye popping stats since then he has the worst WRC plus among all qualified hitters, AL or NL. And yeah, it's not even close. He has a 23 WRC plus. He has batted.172, 232, 225 and has been more than a win below replacement level. So he has almost undone the value that he provided early in the season. So. Wow. I just. This is the kind of thing that makes people believe in the gambler's fallacy, I think, where it's like if you've been cold, then you're due for a hot streak or vice versa. And that's not really the case. It's, you know, if you've been hot, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're in line to be as cold as you were hot. It might just mean that you're just going to play like regular old Ilaro Vargas from now on. But that's not what happened. So he went from seemingly really lucky to really unlucky.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So he had a 416Babip over that span when he was batting over.400. Okay. Since then though, he has a 181Babip. So it's like polar opposite seasons. What must it feel like to be Ildemaro Vargas where for that first significant chunk of the season, you're leading a charmed life. And I'm sure he, he probably had some sense of perspective, right? But it's, it's gotta be like Wiley Coyote and you know, you, you run off the edge of the cliff and you're still somehow suspended in the air until you look down and real, there's nothing solid under you. He must just be reeling. What a, what a thing to go from first to worst, basically. And like Luckiest to unluckiest in the span of not even, you know, like a half season. Basically, it's got to be just a real roller coaster for him.

[Meg Rowley]

I'm not remembering the precise timing of this, so it might have nothing at all to do with the way that his fortunes have sort of turned, but I seem to recall that he was involved in a pretty nasty collision at first base. And, you know, he's been playing so clearly not something that is preventing him from being on the field. And so maybe nothing at all, but it did strike me as sort of unfortunate. And then, yeah, that's a grim. That's sort of a grim splits page. You know, sometimes you're like, oh, you know, guys go through stretches where they are hot or cold. And we've talked plenty before about how street streaky hitters are to the point that we maybe do a bad job of communicating how typical that kind of streakiness can be for guys. This is really sure something. This is quite a dramatic turn. I mean, wow. You know, like, it's. It's. It's arresting. It's arresting. Which is a weird thing to say about a. Like a splits page, you know, that it could really take your breath away. This is just numbers on a website, but that's sort of where I'm at with it. My goodness.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And the Diamondbacks have had some guys, remember the year when everyone was cold at the start of the season and then they all got hot and Corbin Burns and other guys, right, were just, like, terrible at the start and then were amazing after that. Suarez, right, Eunio Suarez was sort of the same. Something happened. And, yeah, sometimes it is just luck and randomness, and sometimes it is a guy's just. He's got the mechanics locked in, and then you can't keep them locked in. Or, yeah, someone gets a bit banged up and maybe they're playing through something. The collision you're referring to was June

[Meg Rowley]

4, so that doesn't really quite account for it, does it? Because he had.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He had already been in free fall for a while by that point.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, he hit. He hit.227 in May. He had a 45 WRC plus. I don't think he got.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Probably didn't help, but we can't blame the collision with Max Marcy the elder, solely responsible for this. So. Yeah, but it's. It's really got to be, you know, it's like a Flowers for Algernon situation, where suddenly he was just, like, gaining capacities that he had never had before. And then as soon as he got used to that. They all just disappeared, and we went back to what he was. And it's weird because if you just put the whole season stats together, he's. He's doing okay, I guess. Or he's. He's doing about what you would have expected for Ildemar Vargas. Like, we wouldn't bat an eye if we didn't know that he was super hot and then super cold. And we just looked at, oh, Ilamar Vargas, 94 WRC plus. Okay, that's on the high side for him, but that's not far out of line with what he would be expected to do. Like, his depth chart projection right now is 87. His steamer projection is 90 rest of season. So the full season stats kind of look like who he is, but that. That conceals just two dramatically different subseasons in there. So must really be something to be that guy and to have that completely out of character start to the season and then your swift comeuppance.

[Meg Rowley]

I think there are, like, two different vectors upon which it probably feels disorienting to him because on the one hand, he's demonstrated a capacity to do what he did in April, March and April. Right. And sure, we can appreciate the ways in which that performance was fluky. And I don't mean to suggest that his true talent level was what he looked like in the beginning of the season, but you will have guys who will never, ever have a stretch like that in their entire. Their entire dumb careers. Right? So demonstrating an ability to do it at all at any time is, like, kind of wild. And. And then for it to leave you just flowers for Aldrin. It's like such a rough comp to put on that. My God, does that movie. Does that hold up?

[Ben Lindbergh]

My word, I don't think I've read the book. I don't know that I've seen the movie, actually. So.

[Meg Rowley]

Isn't there a movie? Yeah. Am I thinking of. What's the movie? Hold on. Don't. Don't laugh at me.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It's just like that email you got the other day about the memory loss. You know, now that you've had that birthday. It's happening.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, I like that part. What's the one with Robert De Niro? You know, where he suddenly is capable of. Of Ben. You see every movie. You don't know what movie I'm talking about. He's like. He's like, given a treatment briefly, and he's like a. Totally wakes up and is a different guy for a while, and then it Stops working.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Limitless. Are we talking about Limitless?

[Meg Rowley]

No, not. What. Wait a minute. No.

[Ben Lindbergh]

DeNiro was in that.

[Meg Rowley]

Awakenings. Awakenings.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Okay.

[Meg Rowley]

I don't know if there is a movie of Flowers for Algernon is the point. I think that my brain was making Awakenings, a film with Robert De Niro and Robin Williams, into Flowers for Algernon. But I think they have sort of similar vibes. Anyway.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That's some hot ip. Someone could adapt, but it might be problematic.

[Meg Rowley]

But the second sort of avenue and street to walk down that would feel very strange is like, you know, if you're the Diamondbacks, do you think you're cursed? Like, are you worried that there's like, a kind of curse situation going on with you? Because here are the players who are currently hurt for the Diamondbacks. Now, mind you, many of these guys are pitchers, but James McCann and Jordan Lawler hurt. Jordan Lawler's hurt again. Again, Ben again. And look, I don't want to be indifferent to the young man suffering, but am I glad he's no longer a prospect? I am, because we can't grapple with these injuries anymore. And then on the pitching side, they're still down. Corbin Burns, he has had a setback, as we've discussed. Christian Men is on the injured list. Ryan Nelson's on the injured list. Michael Soroka went on the injured list. Strained glute. Blake Walston is on the injured list. Justin Martinez is still on the injured list. AJ Puck just had a setback in his recovery from surgery. And Andrew Sal Frank is out. And weirdly, they have Max Kepler in the organization, who is not yet eligible to play because he's still on the restricted list, but has been signed and will be, you know, up, I imagine, once he is eligible, which should be soon. Anyway, you guys, you are snake bit. And I worry that the origin of your curse is your lack of fortitude in making the mascot a snake. And if you're a Diamondbacks fan or a member of the Diamondbacks organization, you're sitting there and saying, hey, Meg, you're kind of trivializing a hard time that we're going through. And I don't mean mean to. I want the Zybax to do well. They're the. They're the local team. You want. You want fun and excitement in the local market, you know?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, Snakes alive or not, they're still alive, Ben.

[Meg Rowley]

They're not dead. They're just injured. Yeah, it was like a. It was like he had, like, Parkinson's or something. And then there was like a. A magical drug and it woke him up and then it stopped working or something. I don't really remember it. Yeah.

[John Brebia]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, yeah, dback's lousy, as Nora Morse said in a headline. That's an effectively wild deep cut. But they're not that lousy. They're in it. And maybe they'll get some of these guys back and they'll be better. But the trajectory of Vargas reminds me of the old sabermetric maxim, Voros's Law, named after Voris McCracken. Any major league hitter can hit just about anything in 60 at bats. Well, this was more than 60 at bats. That was 94 at bats for Vargas through May 1st. But even over larger samples, surprising stuff happens. Also, to head off some emails, there is a film adaptation of Flowers for Algernon, which I had forgotten because it's called Charlie and it's from 1968. And Cliff Robertson played Charlie, the character from the book, and won best actor, won an Oscar for that movie.

[Meg Rowley]

So not only a movie, but one that featured at least one good performance.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And there is also a flowers for Algernon TV movie starring Matthew Modine from. From the year 2000.

[Meg Rowley]

I love Matthew Modine. Did they have the. Did they call that one Flowers for Algernon?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. Yes.

[Meg Rowley]

Why did they call Charlie Charlie?

[Ben Lindbergh]

I don't know. Maybe we would have remembered it more quickly if. If they had called it the name.

[Meg Rowley]

Likely.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But anyway, anyway, okay, so speaking of injuries, the Cubs have a whole lot of them in their pitching staff. They basically don't have a pitching staff or at least a starting rotation. And so they have made a trade with the Mets. Can we declare deadline season open? Now, is this. Is this a deadline move or is this because the Cubs acquired David Peterson from the Mets?

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And. And really, they just. They need warm bodies at this point because Edward Cabrera just went on the il. Ben Brown just went on the il. Justin Steele not returning this year. And they already have Tyone and Boyd and Horton. Just everyone is hurt other than Imanaga, basically, is like the last man standing. So they acquired David Peterson, who has a 6 ERA, and so that's the straits that they're in here. However, the FIP is fine. So if you want to, you know, glass half full David Pearson, ground ball guy, get him out of that infield defense he's been pitching in front of in Queens.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Which made six infield errors of franchise records on Wednesday, which prompted. Yeah, Gary Cohen, not Steve Cohen, but Gary, to say that the team is in the depths of despair.

[John Brebia]

I mean what do you say at this point? So I mean this team is in the depths of despair, can't get starting pitching to hold the other team at bay, struggling with their offense and now the defense falls apart.

[Meg Rowley]

The depths of despair.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. I'm not sure how much of it is the infield defense and how much of it is bad luck, but put David Peterson in front of Dansby, Swanson Co. And maybe the ERA will start looking a little more like the fit. But really they're desperate so they just, they need anyone right now. And so I don't know whether this means Mets are open for business and this is just the first domino of many to fall or whether I mean Peterson had fallen out of the Mets rotation. So I don't know if this is just kind of these teams were just playing each other and the Cubs have been beating up on the Mets once and single handedly just taking it to the Mets. And so maybe they just thought it's a marriage of convenience, you need a starter. We have David Peterson lying around, but he was one of the expendable impending free agent expiring contract guys we mentioned when we had a conversation earlier this season about will the Mets be sellers and what do they even have to move. He was one of the names we mentioned and there's not maybe a ton to move. So I don't know whether this is something that presages just like I don't know that this is a fire sale kind of candidates this team but, but more to come presumably if they keep playing like this.

[Meg Rowley]

That's a really bad baseball team. You know, I find the move on the one hand sort of obvious and curious on the Cubs part if only because sure they are I think expected to get some of these guys back and the NL wildcard field is, you know, there's, there's room to maneuver in the wild card field. There are seven games back of the Brewers. I think that it's worth asking like okay, so let's imagine you're able to sort of find your way to October. What kind of hoped you have there though because you know what's the state of your pitching? You walked through all of the starters they have currently hurt and as we mentioned some of them will likely come back. They also have like most of a bullpen on the injured list.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

And so it's just, it's a touch curious but they do have to play the rest of the season so regardless of whether or not they have aspirations for more, you know, they, they do have to keep going here. It is only June 20th. I think that the, the Mets are a really bad baseball team. Not only bad from like a record perspective. Not only might we find their playoff odds wanting, they also are just like seem like they're a really rough watch. And I, I'm not trying to rub it into their fans. I am currently experiencing a more successful but still aggravating experience that is watching the Seattle Mariners. So you have my sympathies. But you know, they have like a negative 46 run differential. They're pretty bang on their expected records. So I just not surprised they're ready to move on now. I think that you could argue moving David Peterson doesn't really have to be a starting gun on a deadline race if you don't want it to. Like, you could just move him. I guess if you're like really enthusiastic about Cole Mathis, I suppose, which presumably they were at least a little bit enthusiastic about Cole Mathis, but he was the prospect who went back 35 plus for us. So like not a, not a guy. But we're, it's a weird trade because like David Peterson isn't good or at least he's not having a good time right now. He's having a bad time.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So yeah, we're taking Sloan to her first big league game next month and we're going to a Mets game when Ohtani is in town. And young Yankees fan Ben probably would have been aghast to know that I was taking my daughter to a Mets game before a Yankees game. But it was about, well, it's about the ballpark experience. I believe city is superior and it's about just prices of tickets or whatever else. But now I'm like, as you just said, maybe not the most watchable team. Am I going to just spoil her on baseball is you got to watch the Mets make six infield errors and say I'm supposed to be impressed by this and that'll be that. So we'll see how that goes. I will have a report on the podcast, but it is, it's funny because the Cubs are concerned about the Cubs coming into the season was the lack of top of the rotation guys or the lack of just elite guys like who do you want in this rotation starting game one in a playoff series, it was less about the depth. It just seemed like they made the whole rotation out of depth. And so the issue was going to be, yeah, who's your guy? Who's just going to shove who's, you know, your opponent's going to be afraid to face him.

[Meg Rowley]

Right. They didn't seem like they had a dude.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. And. And now they don't have the depth either. So it's worst of both worlds, really.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So David Peterson doesn't help a whole lot, but I wouldn't be surprised if he pitches competently the rest of the way. It's just, yeah, they could use a little bit more than that.

[Meg Rowley]

They could use a. A lot more than that. You don't have to be shy about saying that. That just seems like the obvious truth. They, they need, they need like a whole rotation and they need at least a couple of those guys who could be, you know, reasonable playoff starters. And I don't know that they have anyone in house right now. Now maybe when guys come back. But you're still, you're still lacking of dudes. You are. You, you got no death, no dudes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Couple other things. One on the other side of town, Jazz Chisholm got hit in the balls and a breaking ball fouled off of Chisholm.

[John Brebia]

He felt that one. Remember Jazz fouled a ball off his foot last night.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I don't know where he fouled this

[John Brebia]

one off and I don't really want to know. I don't think, I don't think it was the foot. Could look at this curveball right here. See, Jazz hits right on the top of it. Oh, that's why that one will have you. You singing at a high pitch in the shower.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He fouled a ball off of his groin. Quite sensitive area. And I almost respect that. He is sticking to his guns and he is not going to be wearing a cup henceforth. He was not wearing a cup at that time and he has not turned over a new leaf. He has not said, I've learned my lesson. I'm now going to don a cup of. I question the wisdom of. Of not wearing one. But if you weren't wearing one before, maybe he's onto something by not changing because of this one time event, which this one time event sounds like it was traumatic enough that many people probably would say, I don't want that to happen. Even one other time. He described the pain level as a million. I don't know what, what scale that was on one to ten. It's a million. So it was very painful.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But he said, I've never worn a cup. I'm not going to change. Just an unlucky instance right there. And you know, I kind of respect that point of view. I don't know that his risk analysis is is correct. I would wear a cup, to be clear. I mean, when I was playing baseball in eighth grade, I was wearing a cup and no one was throwing hard or anything, so I would wear one. But if he wasn't wearing one before, maybe it makes sense that he's not letting this one time event change his mind. Because he said this has never happened to him before at any level. You know, he's been playing baseball for a long time and, and if the odds are what they are, if he says, well, this is sort of, you know, he's treating it like a black swan event, it's just like one of these things you can't anticipate. And I mean you could, and you could have worn a cup all along. But if, if there's a downside to wearing, I mean, it's uncomfortable and it's not as uncomfortable as the million level pain that he suffered here, right? So I don't know how to calculate slight discomfort multiplied by many, many games over 1 million. But it's only once, or at least it's, it's only once this time. I'm just saying, like the, the cost benefit analysis here. Once you have decided that you don't want to wear one all the time, maybe one time of having this happen shouldn't actually change the calculus because you could say, oh, see, this could happen many more times and now I have to wear a cup forever. And then he could wear a cup for the rest of his career and it could never happen again. And all that cup wearing would have been wasted. Aside from, I guess, whatever psychological comfort you get from knowing that you won't be subject to a million, it still hurts if you get hit in the cup even. But it's not going to be a million. So on the one hand, I don't understand the decision in the first place not to wear it, right? But once he reached the decision that that was the right thing for him before then, I kind of think maybe not letting yourself be swayed by a one time only event that is very low probability. Maybe he's onto something here.

[Meg Rowley]

Ben, this is the dumbest thing you've ever said your entire time on this podcast Galaxy Brain. And look, I want to be clear. I respect and cherish you as a friend and as a thinker. I would submit that you are misfiring pretty badly on this particular one. Though I'm willing to allow that the odds of him suffering a further strike not appreciably altered by it having happened once before and honestly, probably unlikely to be even correlated with him wearing a cup or not. You know, I don't think that, you know, there's been some thought that putting, say, football players in the big, heavy helmets makes them a little more reckless, actually, than they would be if they weren't covered up. Now I think everyone says, well, whether that's true or not, they're in a car accident every Sunday, so they gotta just wear these helmets.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I brought that up. One of the episodes you were away for recently. When I talked about the catcher helmets and masks and preventing concussions, I brought up that effect. And the guest was like, yeah, you hear a lot about that. But it is still way better to wear the helmet.

[Meg Rowley]

Still way better to wear the helmet. And so I'm not suggesting that Jazz, to be clear, is any more or less likely to get hit in the nuts again, based on whether or not he wears a cup. But, like, that also is independent from the. The inherent wisdom, or lack thereof, of deciding not to wear one. And I would submit the. The lack of wisdom is profound. Here's the thing. It's not just about the temporary discomfort, significant though it may be. I'm sorry to say this to men. I know you all are appropriately freaked out, but like, guys, they rupture sometimes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

You know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. As they say, don't get it twisted. You don't want to get twisted down there.

[Meg Rowley]

You want it to be a torture free zone.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this was not that. That didn't happen in this case. He just had to. Thankfully, I sit down, but.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

And that has to be unpleasant too, I would think. I would imagine.

[John Brebia]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

Icing that area doesn't feel awesome, even if it does offer some relief from the pain of. Of getting a foul ball to the. To the nuts. But I think you should wear a. You should wear a cup. You should wear a cup. It's Ben. It's bonkers to suggest that he is taking some sort of intriguing or principled in stand here. It's. It's cuckoo bananas that he's not wearing a cup. You guys are so vulnerable down there, you know, And I'm. I'm not saying that like you're making it up. You're so vulnerable. It doesn't take very much at all for you all to be bent over sideways. What do you mean? He. He what? He should wear a cup if Jazz wants there to be little baby Jazzes someday. And maybe he doesn't, but if he does, Gotta protect. Gotta protect your business. You don't. You also. Here's. Here's the thing I would say, and maybe the discomfort part of it is more compelling than anything else. So I'm gonna appeal. It feels weird to appeal to Jazz Chisholm Jr's vanity about his literal testicles, but I guess that's where this episode is going, don't you think? John Brebey is so glad that he talked to you. Here's the thing I'll say to. I would say to Jazz if I were, for whatever reason, asked by him what I think of his decision to wear a cup, which. Why would he ever ask me that? I know only a handful of things about Mitch Haniger, and one of them is about his physical rupturing. Like, that's the thing I know about him, and we are not friends. You know, we don't exchange Christmas cards. I don't know his wife. It's a weird thing to know, but it's a thing I know about him, you know? So when you become one of the guys who has a nut rupture, that's. That's one of the facts of your biography that really sticks to you. You know, it's a thing people remember in part because so many baseball fans are men possessed of testicles, and they know how that. How it feels to, you know, just to. I mean, sometimes you guys just sit on them funny and then. And that's uncomfortable enough.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So, yeah, I'm sure it was just as memorable for him as for everyone else. I'm sure.

[Meg Rowley]

I'm sure it was more memorable for him and I. Although it was very memorable for other people, including me, because in that moment, I happened to be watching that game and happened to see it happen. And I thought to myself, huh, I wonder if his nuts act is fully intact. That was the thing I thought about a person who works in, you know, kind of my industry. That's weird. I shouldn't know about his nuts. Mariners, none of my business.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Been forced to confront that thought out multiple times in the history of the franchise. So.

[John Brebia]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I don't understand it. And yet I do. There are certain things that are so catastrophic and so traumatic that even if they are extremely low probability events, then you just. You do it. You always. You buckle up. You're not likely to get in the car accident, but you buckle up. Even though sometimes that buckle kind of digs into your shoulder because it'll save you if that worst case scenario happens. And. And, you know, I guess you could say maybe the nutshot doesn't fall into that category if it's not a Hannah Ger situation. It's just a temporary, fleeting million pain. But it's. Maybe it's bad enough for most people that they would do that to yourself. Happily. Wear a cup. Yeah. Unless he thinks, like, it's significantly impairing his performance. Like, there's. It's so uncomfortable. There's so much chafing. You know, it's affecting his mobility. It's distracting. Who knows if that's his calculus here. I'm just saying, it's. He's basically betting on lightning not striking twice in the same place.

[Meg Rowley]

Chafing. Is there that much chafing? Okay, I'm sorry. I'm going to take a different tact. Nut up and wire cup. What's wrong with you? Like, I'm sorry. Well, you have to endure all kinds of discomfort as a professional athlete.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes.

[Meg Rowley]

And wouldn't you rather have fully functional testicles? Really?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. Oh, I would. And, yeah, I want to make it clear. I'm Pro Cup. I would wear a cup. I did wear a cup. I'm just. I'm sort of appreciating the intellectual consistency of just. Hey, this didn't happen for years and years.

[Meg Rowley]

He's being intellectually consistent about something dumb. Like, that's not admirable. That's just stubborn.

[John Brebia]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Sometimes you get new information, which is. Oh, that's how much that hurts. Right. Maybe I should integrate that new information into my calculus here.

[Meg Rowley]

I can't believe that I am the only person in this situation.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Only you have the balls to say it.

[Meg Rowley]

Jazz just home Junior's balls. That shouldn't be on me.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

They're none of my business.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And his manager, Aaron Boone, said much the same as you. And, you know, they've had their differences in recent days because Jazz had a lollipop in his mouth on the field, and Aaron Boone disapproved of that. But he also disapproves of not wearing a cup. He said he was surpr. Well, when he heard that Adrian Beltray, one of the former Mariners, who did not wear a cup. When. When Boone heard that Beltray never wore a cup, he was surprised. And Boone said, and I quote, in December, going to hit soft toss. I put a cup on. That's the difference between this generation and my generation. I did nothing with. I love that. That's the difference between.

[Meg Rowley]

Wait. I don't think it's a generational thing. I'm sorry, Aaron Boone. There have been dip men as long as there have been men. This is not a generational thing. I'm not calling Jazz a dipshit. I'm saying this is dip behavior, but he is not a dipshit.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I do get the sense that players are a little more cup optional than they used to be. Boone says, I did nothing without a cup. Baseball related. The first time I heard Adrian Beltray didn't wear a cup blew my mind. But now I know a lot of these guys don't wear cups. That's false. And yeah, when the White Sox then minor leaguer who made his debut this year, Duncan Davitt was on the podcast, I asked him about it and he said a lot of guys don't and it depends on the position. Obviously if you're an outfielder or something, it's a little different. You still have to hit though.

[Meg Rowley]

You still have to hit though.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. And, and Jez said. So this ESPN story, or maybe it's an AP story, says he never wore a cup in the minor leagues where it is mandatory. I was not aware that it was mandatory.

[Meg Rowley]

How do they know they do it?

[Ben Lindbergh]

They're doing a. I guess they weren't doing the cup. The nut tap. Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

This vision of the manager being like, all right fellows, line up. And then.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. And then. Oh, and then you double over. Yeah. Yeah. So he said he didn't wear one. I was not aware that cups are mandatory in the minors, but not that I don't. Is that true? But if it was, it was not. Not enforced because he said he never wore one. So yeah, I think that there is sort of a trend. I've just gotten the sense, you know, not everyone declares their cup status publicly.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But my perception just from, from reading things just. I get the sense that not everyone wears one the way that they used to. So I don't know.

[Meg Rowley]

Okay.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I'm not sure why you wouldn't. I mean the, the balls, the baseballs that is.

[John Brebia]

Are.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Are traveling faster than Right. Ever did. So yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

Think that, that you would have the, the most incentive to wear them. Now can we lay this at the feet of some, some podcaster. Is this a podcaster's fault? Is this like someone is. Is Joe Rogan telling these boys that, yeah, if you wear a cup it's gonna.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Everyone's an incel. So they don't. They don't need their balls anyway or something. I don't. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Who knows.

[Meg Rowley]

But uh huh. Yeah. Now I'm. Now I'm just. Nobody tell RFK Jr about the cup stuff. Okay. Like just like everybody, we're keeping that to ourselves because I can't listen to that gravelly man, talk about sperm count anymore. I can't. I can't. It's making me crazy.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I do want to talk about baseballs because they've been more variable this year, but I'll. I'll save that for next time. It's puzzling, though. Lately there's been less. Less resistance on those suckers for whatever reason. Anyway, just quickly, I keep saying and thinking, this'll be the last time that we'll have to talk about the fallout from Pride Night stuff. And we are kind of past talking about the actual Pride Night now we're just talking about the response to the Pride Night. And so this week, Giants organization not covering itself in glory, Buster Posey called what has to be one of the more pointless press conferences. I don't know what the thinking was. Was it just, well, we gotta put someone out there, we gotta say something, but just wasn't prepared to say anything about anything. And even the Raphael Dever situation, which they've all done some damage control and sort of smoothed it over and De said he apologized and whatever else, but

[Meg Rowley]

when Posey, Tony Vitello, like, quoted the town.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Quoted the town for some reason, right.

[Meg Rowley]

But didn't have the, like, gumption to do the actual full quote and so just sounded like he only vaguely knew of the town. You guys tighten up over there, man.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[John Brebia]

If he came over to my condo and said, I need your help. You can't ask about it and we're going to do some damage, all I'd say is whose car we're going to take.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So they put Posey out there and he wasn't really prepared to talk about Devers because he hadn't talked to Devers himself at that point. So it was like, what are you doing out here? And what he did was make a very brief, just kind of wishy washy acknowledgement of the Pride Night controversy. And was basically just like, we know there are strong feelings about this or something. And so out of respect, I'm clamming up and not saying anything. That's basically what he said. That was kind of the preamble. And then he said, I'm just going to take baseball questions. And then in response to every subsequent question was just like, just baseball questions. Just baseball questions.

[Meg Rowley]

Did you object to those nights when you were a player? And also, did any. Did you or anyone from the organization talk to Tony, talk to the players and explain the importance of this demographic to your.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Your business, the importance of this evening for the fans?

[John Brebia]

I mentioned that I'm not going to Revisit it. So if you want to ask baseball questions, I'll answer baseball questions. Are you planning to reach out to

[Ben Lindbergh]

the gay community about any of this or no?

[John Brebia]

I mean, and if you want to go baseball questions. I made my statement on it. I'll answer baseball questions.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But do you have no response to

[John Brebia]

the commissioner saying inadequate and unclear communication? I'll answer baseball questions.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Lester, why do you want to only answer baseball questions?

[John Brebia]

There's some very important matters that the

[Ben Lindbergh]

public is debating outside this organization. I'm going to answer baseball questions.

[Meg Rowley]

Do you feel it's not your job as baseball president?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Baseball.

[Meg Rowley]

I mean, is this something we should

[John Brebia]

be talking to Larry about, guys?

[Ben Lindbergh]

We just need to keep it baseball related or. He got bailed out by the media relations guy eventually. But, you know, as the reporters present were pointing out, these are baseball questions because it has become about baseball. This is something that happened in a baseball game. And also, Rob Manfred, in his letter that he sent to Josh, not Noah Hollywood, kind of threw the Giants under the bus a bit because he suggested that the Giants had not properly communicated to their players that they had the option to opt out and wear the regular cap instead of the pride cap, which I can certainly believe that the Giants communication is dysfunctional, but I don't know that that completely makes sense to me. I mean, for one thing, Sam Hinches was wearing the regular cap, right? So he must have heard that he had the option to do that.

[Meg Rowley]

And weren't all of the guys who opted to write B versus on their hats on the Giants last year?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I guess. I guess that's true. And they had certainly had some conversations in the days and weeks leading up to that. I don't know with whom exactly, but other members of the team. So I don't know if that was just a little cover your ass from Manfred, where he was not fully groveling and throwing himself on the mercy of the Senate, but was kind of of bending over backward to point out that this was not any kind of discrimination, which I don't really think it was. But, you know, to be clear, it

[Meg Rowley]

doesn't seem like the players did either, based on what they said, so.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Exactly right. And so, you know, he was citing all the policies and everything and talking about how the players weren't and won't be punished for this, which is true. We went through all the CBA provisions about it and everything. But he did throw some blame on the Giants there. The Giants cut some strays. And so. So I don't know, maybe Posey is in a situation where he didn't want to throw Vitello under the bus or he didn't want to contradict what the commissioner said. You know, maybe it was a little bit of an awkward situation for him, but you can't just no comment and say just baseball questions when these are clearly baseball related. And I don't know what he expected in that moment. Right. Is that just his lack of experience as an executive? I mean he certainly has plenty of experience talking about to baseball reporters. So he could have been briefed better, at least for that. So that just he could have offered some, some pablum, he could have just served up some warmed over whatever. We appreciate the fans, we want everyone to feel welcome. And it probably would have just blown over and you know, some people wouldn't have been satisfied unless he had a real full throated endorsement and condemnation or whatever. But he could have said something.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That kind of just didn't inflame the situation. And he did the opposite of that. And subsequently he was supposed to do a KNBR radio spot and he was replaced by Larry Baer, the longtime CEO of the team. And he had some, you know, kind of more or less mealy mouthed, like, you know, we're listening and we want to continue to have these conversations, but also we want to move on basically. So they are in a situation where obviously they're not going to make everyone happy and the worst possible people are going to jump all over anything they say. But they really have not, I think, shown themselves to be prepared for what was going to happen here.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, it's, it's a little, it's a little bit odd because the, the prior reporting around this suggests that there were internal conversations around the team wearing the hat. And I don't know know that we know for sure that the three guys who wrote Bible verses were aware in a way that Sam henches seems to have been that they could have worn their, their default Giant's cap as an alternative to this. I think the possibility exists that they knew that and decided they wanted to say something. Up until the point that people kept asking about them about what they wanted to say. But the particulars of that aside, and I think that the part of it that I find the most surprising is to your point, like there just seem, there seems to be like an obvious at least head fake to offer here to say, you know, Major League Baseball's policy suggests that, you know, what Sam did is the approved means of sort of navigating the situation for players who aren't comfortable wearing it. We've had a conversation with Landon and his pals about the appropriate path forward, consistent with the warning that they received from Major League Baseball. But I, Buster Posey, want to be clear that we view the LGBTQ community as an important part of our fan base and city. We want them to feel welcome at the ballpark. We want our Pride event to be a celebration and embrace of that community. And we are sorry that this year's version of it failed to live up to those goals and ideals. And we pledged to do better going forward. You're right that that would not have satisfied everyone. It would have further inflamed the Josh Hawleys of the world, who seem to be unable to think about anything else than other people's business. And, you know, it probably would not have satisfied many of the people who were initially offended by Roops and Brubakers, et cetera's protests. But. But it would have been something. And it would have been something more direct. It would have suggested that he has an appreciation for the situation they find themselves in and have put themselves in, which is, you're a bad baseball team who. That is also failing to entertain and galvanize the people who care about it. That's your fix, Buster. And your job as a senior executive is to try to help your team find its way out of there. Maybe you should focus on that. You don't seem to be very good at building a roster, so try something else. You know what I mean? It's just like, sometimes when these guys can't muster up even though, like, face saving stuff, it's like, do you either not appreciate the. The sort of seriousness of this moment, or fundamentally, do you agree with Landon Roop? You know what I mean? Like, and we don't. He never, to my knowledge, has answered questions on that score. And so I don't want to tag him with something that isn't true to him, but, you know, you're in a weird spot. Now, I also appreciate, or at least understand that the political orientation of the majority owner might put Buster Posey in a position where he feels like he can't speak freely on this issue, lest he offend his actual boss. But to that I would say, hey, Buster, who's firing you? You know what I mean?

[Ben Lindbergh]

You.

[Meg Rowley]

You're part of the ownership group too. You know, like, and you've made your money. You've. You. This is a bad situation. Wouldn't it be. Wouldn't it be a little favor to you if you got fired? Really? This isn't going well. You know, you seem like you're. You have constructed and lit the match to a tire fire. So I don't know, it's just such a. It's a really unfortunate thing because as we said in the initial conversation we had about this, this event isn't supposed to be about any of these yahoos. Right. It's not supposed to be about any of the chuckleheads that can't see their way past their own discomfort with other people's personal lives. It's supposed to be about this community and it's one that has a really long standing, you know, place in San Francisco. And I wish that that were the focus, but it's not because these guys can't stop tripping over their own dicks about it. I don't know, man. This is like the, this is, this is the PR equivalent of not wearing a cup, I guess, right?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, they, they outlawed this sort of event or team specific celebrations with team specific uniforms for a single game after 2023 for every team except the Dodgers and Giants who got an exemption basically, because, yeah, you know, the large communities there and just the history of the organizations and everything. And so they're the lone holdouts who are still doing something like this. Everyone but the Rangers is doing a pride event of some sort. But when it comes to actual uniforms, right. And probably there are a lot of other teams that are thinking, oof, glad we couldn't get ourselves into this sort of situation, you know, because. And that's unfortunate. But I wonder, the Dodgers, you know, this year they had a couple players just wear the regular cap. Wasn't that big a deal, right? Didn't. Didn't blow up like this has.

[Meg Rowley]

Right. It was noted, but I think in general it was moved on from fairly quickly.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It was more muted. Yeah. And of course they had done their ceremony recognizing Burke and Bean too, but. Yeah. So I just, I wonder whether even the, the last holdouts here, whether come next year, how will they handle this? Will they say, we don't want to do this anymore either? Because, boy, what a cluster that was. Or will they take some preemptive steps? And I kind of hate that all eyes will be on that. You know, I'm sure they'll have some Pride nights or some Pride event regardless, but they got to be, you know, now you go into it kind of bracing yourself for, oh, no, what are the players going to do and what is everyone else going to say? And that shouldn't be what it's about. So that's that's an unfortunate fallout from this. So I want to talk next time because we're doing another pod tomorrow about the baseballs and about Dalton rushing clashing with Shohei in their most recent outing together in other things and maybe next time we can go over some of the specifics of the most recent MLB proposals in bargaining. Again, I don't want to get too sucked into the horse race style coverage of this stuff because it's just so early and it's just premature really to read that much significance. But some of these things are so just really radical that like last time we talked about the amateur side stuff because it was really like, wow, if this is what they're aiming for and the economic proposals on Thursday that were exchanged or that MLB shared with the public and people on official MLB social media channels and also the press and everyone also quite sweeping and striking. And so we will probably get into that a little bit. I think just my main takeaway is just that like, well, for one thing, MLB just seems to be really looking to other sports and saying we are copying what the NFL does and what other salary capped leagues do and everything. I mean from the restrictions on free agency that were just proposed to the amateur restrictions we talked about last time and length of contracts and, and the salary cap itself, it's very much, hey, how can we just import what these other leagues have? And that's the messaging too to the public is just, hey, all these other leagues have salary caps and they have this and that and we're just doing what they did or trying to do what they did. And that's probably a pretty effective message for many fans, I would guess, who follow those other sports and think of MLB as the outlier and why don't they just get on board with all the other leagues? So it is interesting. I wonder how much coordination there is between MLB owners and owners of other leagues. Obviously there's some owners who own franchises in multiple leagues and sports, but I wonder if they have coordinated, communicated about this stuff. Yeah, the, the common element though is in those leagues that got the cap and all these other measures that MLB owners are seeking now, they, they had to break the union to get those things and they had to in some cases call up the scrubs or have a season canceled or whatever to get that. And I just, I still continue to doubt that MLB owners have the stomach for that this time around. We'll see. The other thing that has stood out to me is that these are like, I know they're opening offers, but they're still quite drastic in many cases. And. And I know that maybe the negotiating strategy might be okay. We'll start with this wild proposal we're never going to get, and then everyone will be anchored to that, and then we will slowly come to the middle. But the more we move, the Overton Window or whatever, you know, we start more extreme than when we inevitably end up in the middle somewhere. It'll be closer to our side if we propose something that's really ambitious, but that could backfire also. And it might turn out to be just the opposite, where you overreach with your initial asks and then that rallies resistance, or it. It makes the other side less willing to listen to you or to think that you're bargaining in good faith. So we'll see how that works out, too. But that sort of seems to be the strategy. It's like, let's totally shoot for the moon here.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And then maybe we'll wind up with more of what we want. But I don't. I don't know. It's a bold strategy. We'll see if that works out for them.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah, it's. It's interesting because their approach in the last CBA negotiation was to really refuse to come to the table much at all prior to, certainly during the season. We've seen, as we discussed when the Players Association's proposal came out and then the league responded so quickly, it feels. Feels like we are seeing more action earlier in this round, but I think. I don't know that I would characterize it as being all that much more productive because all of these proposals from the league's perspective, are at least partially dependent on the institution of a cap and floor, because many of them would lack sort of a mechanism by which to make them happen if that system isn't there for them. And so I'm skeptical that what we end up with will look remotely like this when it's all said and done. But we'll just see. We'll get into some of the more granular proposals next time just to make sure everyone's sort of keeping up with where the two parties are sitting. But the punchline is no closer together than they were the last time we went through any of this stuff.

[Ben Lindbergh]

All right. More to come and soon. And more to come immediately because I'm about to talk to John Brebia and we will get into some CBA stuff, just kind of taking his temperature and, and getting a reading on how the players are feeling mood wise about all of this. But we'll take A quick break and then we'll be back with Brebia and we'll pick up mid conversation.

[Meg Rowley]

How are you?

[Ben Lindbergh]

I'm okay. We got so much to do today.

[John Brebia]

Breaking balls and bls and those stats won't blast themselves.

[Meg Rowley]

Effectively wild.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Effectively wild.

[Meg Rowley]

Effectively wild.

[John Brebia]

Effectively wild.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Effectively wild. Hope you're not sacrificing any exciting off day plans.

[John Brebia]

No, about 20 minutes of pool time. That's about it. 20 minutes in the sun that I don't need. So this is actually perfect.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh, yeah, I'm with you on that. It doesn't matter what SPF I employ. They have not yet. The scientists in the lab have not yet created the level of SPF that would protect people with our complexion. Yeah.

[John Brebia]

So I need my lead coat, my lead overcoat to keep it all out.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And the beard, that's why you just. Just grow the beard longer and longer

[John Brebia]

to cover more of your face.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[John Brebia]

This is not a baseball thing. It gets longer as the summer goes on.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I know that, you know, players. Skin cancer can be a concern later in life because baseball players get a lot of sun, even with the caps and the glasses and everything. So are. Are baseball players typically pretty diligent about applying and reapplying or are they kind of cavalier when it comes to sun protection?

[John Brebia]

You get a healthy mix. I think most people are. Are going to lean towards cautious, but, you know, you'd be crazy to think that everyone that you come across is going to be that way. So you, you get a healthy. Just like anything else in life, you get a healthy balance, Right?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Or an unhealthy balance.

[John Brebia]

Or an unhealthy balance. Yeah, for sure.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And I guess if you were using sunscreen and rosin or some kind of combination to get a better grip, maybe you can get in trouble for that these days.

[John Brebia]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gone are.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Too sad to see it go, I'm sure. So long.

[John Brebia]

Anyway, I'm sure many pitchers would agree.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. Not you. Because you would. Yes.

[John Brebia]

No comment. No comment.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Of course. Well, you are back in the big leagues. Congrats. And you are back on effectively wild. How would you compare just getting the call to come back on the podcast compared to getting the call to come up to Colorado?

[John Brebia]

My heart was dangerously skipping beats when I saw your email. Naturally, I was very excited about Major League Baseball, but right when I popped open that email and I saw you reached out, I almost fell out of my chair for sure.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, the pay bump is not quite equivalent coming on the podcast versus the big leagues, but, you know, the Prestige.

[John Brebia]

Yes. It's for the love of the game, you know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. It's the intangibles, I guess, but. And I would like it to be known that I invited you back on the podcast well before you got called up again. So I am no bandwagon Rebia fan, just uninterested. Until you're up in the show again, I don't care what level you're pitching at, you're. You're always welcome on the podcast.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, that is much appreciated. Yeah. I can confirm on the record that it was well before this and I'm pretty sure you, I, I want to say that I was like getting shelled when you sent me that email. So that's, that's even more noteworthy.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. True supporter through thick and plain. Now, how do they break the news about a call up when it's not your first time? It's far from your first time when you're a veteran because if you're a rookie getting the call for the first time, sometimes they do pranks and hidden cameras and it's on social media and all the rest of it. If it's you, is it just. How do they, how do they break that news to a veteran?

[John Brebia]

It's a little bit more business. And I will say we had kind of because of the timing. You know, I was in Albuquerque in that time zone. All of the baseball stuff really goes through my agent who is East Coast Times. And it was very late at night in Albuquerque, in New Mexico. So there was some funny timing where like, well, you know, my agent went to sleep. He's not gonna stay up until 2 in the morning, you know, like waiting for this phone call. So it was actually extra funny where, where the Rockies reached out and they were like, hey, we, we know you're awake because the game just finished, but this is what we want to do. We know that you want to get in touch with your agent. So it was kind of this like a very, very business like transaction. And of course, you know, I got back to his very quickly because that is, that is what he does and he's very good at it. But yeah, it was. Normally it's a, a lot less, I don't want to say hoopla that that takes away from it, but that, that exciting. Are we going to prank him? Are we going to do this? You know, is the whole team going to crowd around? Like that's the romanticism of that first call up is awesome. And. But yeah, then at this point for me it's an. Last year was, was the same with the Braves at the end of the season, where it was just like, let's. Let's get this business done. Let's take care of it. So I gotta tell you, however you do it, it's. It feels good.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, I'm sure it does. Yeah. I was gonna say, because even if you've got eight years in, coming into this year like you do, you never know. At some point it's gonna be the end for everyone. And absolutely. I'm sure you're. You're bouncing around hoping that call's gonna come, but you can't take it for granted. So. And after you've been. I'm. I'm sure it is quite a relief and a thrill, even if it's not ever like the first time again.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely. It's. It's. I. I can't imagine a scenario where it won't feel good. So if it ever does, if I ever tell you, you know, it wasn't that exciting, it's time. It's time for me to go. I gotta move on. But so far. So far, it's been great.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. So you have been on the move. I guess we could call you a. A journeyman. Over the past year, maybe.

[John Brebia]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Just the last time we talked, which was a little more than 13 months ago, you were with the Tiger, and since then you've been with the Braves, the Rockies, the Twins, now the Rockies again. So, yeah, take me through the various employers and team changes.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, the. So going from the Tigers to the Braves last year, you know, very much Tigers, deservedly so. They were a great organization. Nothing bad to say. They did the right thing. I was terrible, so they moved on from me. And that just kind of started this whole, like, okay, well, we got to make some big changes because, you know, I love love ball, want to play. So got to the Braves and started to implement some of those changes. And some things work, some things didn't. Ended up having a. What the Braves was consider a good enough time there to get called up for just a little bit. And then, you know, I. To be honest, I can't. Couldn't tell you exactly how the end of that season went, but I know that I gave up a couple of runs eventually at some point, and the Braves said no more.

[Meg Rowley]

And.

[John Brebia]

And I actually spent the last few days with. With the Red Sox.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That's right. Yeah.

[John Brebia]

At the very end of the season. Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[John Brebia]

That's hit the il for getting sick, so never actually ended up playing with them, which was. Which was a Whole nother fun adventure I can, I can make a note of in my little wacky things that happen in baseball list. And yeah, it's, it's sort of been ever since just attempting to restructure, reorganize, find out what works, find out what doesn't. I was was fortunate enough to be able to sign with the Rockies this off season and learn some new things in camp with them and test some new things out in camp with them, you know, not making the opening day roster. So I opted out and took a chance somewhere else. You know, kind of constantly looking for, constantly looking for that chance to play Major League Baseball. Opted out with the Twins because that chance didn't come up and came back. So it's been, yeah, I'm grateful for all the opportunities given for sure, but it's definitely been kind of a funny, kind of a funny ride to see how to see how all of that works.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Was your illness with the Red Sox, was that just your sort of standard flu like symptoms or. Because I'm always surprised by what players are able to play through or push themselves to play through even if they shouldn't. But we've all seen the guys just spewing on the mound and you know, sometimes the trash can before running out there, sometimes it's nerves, sometimes it's just, you know, under hydrating, over hydrating, whatever. But sometimes guys are just ill and most of us would be in bed.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, there's some something is going to go around a clubhouse at least once a year for me. I actually I got hand foot and mouth disease.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Oh wow.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, it was extremely mild as I have had it in when I took an off. It was actually an off season baseball trip to Japan in 2018. I got it there and the symptoms were much less comfortable than they were this last time around. And I'll never forget asking, asking the Google search bar when I first kind of saw the symptoms and thought wow, this reminds me of seven years ago. Like this is there's no way. And I said hey Google, you know, is this hand, foot and mouth?

[Ben Lindbergh]

I've had it before.

[John Brebia]

And Google promptly said, oof, there's no way, buddy. It's almost impossible for adults to get it twice. And lo and behold, I am the only almost part of that impossible.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Thanks AI Summary Never.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[John Brebia]

Yeah. So the so I actually felt I physically, I felt okay and I was continuing to do baseball stuff, but I was, you know, very contagious and if someone else gets it worse than I do, you know, it'll hijack a team's roster with everyone. So it was one of those things where they're like, we, we gotta have X number of days where you just kind of can't be around people. And, and that would have taken us to the end of the season. So both myself and the team more or less agreed. Like, well, let's just go home. There's no point in just standing here for, for 10 days and then leaving.

[Ben Lindbergh]

We don't want everyone being infected by John Brevia. But yeah, yeah. I was wondering if you caught it from your kid or something because that was going around my daughter's pre K class last year and that was another thing. Yeah, kids can get it. And then, then because I'm a Taylor Sheridan sicko, I was watching Dutton Ranch the other day and now when, you know, the, the herd catches, I guess it would be hoof and mouth because we don't have hooves, but they had to put down the whole herd. So fortunately that didn't happen to you.

[John Brebia]

Yes. Yeah. Thank, thank goodness I rebounded from it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So how disruptive is this for your family then? Just kind of not knowing where you're going to be playing in any given given year or month.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, I mean it's high, you know, it's, it's highly disruptive.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Right.

[John Brebia]

But it's also worth it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[John Brebia]

Like. Yeah. Are we, are they bouncing around? They actually came out to visit and they were halfway through their trip out to see me when I, I got called up with the Rockies. So they did a last, you know, they flew out to Albuquerque and then we did this last minute, you know, midnight till 1 o' clock in the morning. My wife and I are like trying to figure out packing and are they going to drive to Colorado, fly? Can we change our flights? How do we turn, you know, like a little bit of this chaos? And they ended up driving up to Colorado. So they're it, sure it is absolutely disruptive, but it's a, it's partially expected just because of the lifestyle and B, it's, it's so worth it, you know, the experiences that the family gets to have and all that stuff. Now I have significantly fewer experiences traveling with tired kids, sticking them in a long car ride, unpacking all their stuff at yet another hotel. So, so I, I, my wife is absolutely not a complainer, but I would have to imagine that there are a few less smiles and a few more frowns as she's dragging kids across the country all the time. But it's part of it. And, and, and it makes it so worth it to be able to do a lot of different things and a lot of fun stuff across, across these different cities.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And how do you evaluate your prospects then when it comes time to opt out or not opt out? I guess sometimes you have what's called a upward mobility clause maybe, right, which I want one of those. That sounds nice, but you know, if you don't get the call by a certain time, then you can become a free agent. But you have to assess am I going to be better off somewhere else. And so I'm sure you're getting some indication from the organization about whether they have plans to call you up. And then your agent's probably putting out feelers, I imagine. But how do you figure out this is my best bet?

[John Brebia]

There are so many different circumstances and situations when it comes to those opt outs and the mobility stuff and I'm kind of only lightly familiar with some of the bit. My agent, my goodness, what a guy. I, I've known him for, for the majority. Has it been the majority of my life, Half my life. I mean, my goodness, he's, he's much more, he's much more an incredibly close friend, a best friend than he is an agent at, at times, most of the time. But he is constantly doing work and he's constantly assessing other teams and looking for the best opportunity to, to play major league baseball or, you know, the, the opportunity that would be best for, for me and my family. So when you negotiate those opt outs and those dates into contracts as the time gets close, I try not to play, you know, armchair GM because I'm, I have such little experience with that. You know, I can't imagine how far off my, my input or advice would be if I were just giving it to my, myself. So I rely very heavily, I rely very heavily on my agent, Joe and, and he does a great job, you know, getting those feelers out there and assessing other teams and, and looking for places that are the right fit and, and then we go, and then we pack up and then we go. It's, it's an interesting process and a lot of people have very different experiences with the two based on the things in their contract. So there's, there's so much that can

[Ben Lindbergh]

happen and I don't want to make you demean your current team because the Rockies are much improved this year from last year, but last year, of course they struggled. Would be putting it lightly.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

This is one of the worst teams of all time, I'll say it. So you don't have to So I. I'd imagine when you're sort of surveying the market and you're thinking who might need simple pen help at some point this season, maybe even though there are guys now who are having much better years evaluating it after last year, you have to think that might not be the worst place to take a shot at it.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, the. The. From my perspective, I was in spring training with the Rockies, so I was fortunate enough to see it from a. What is this new front office? What is this new pitching staff? What is this new coaching staff? What are they doing? How are they approaching games? How are they approaching their team? What are they teaching? Regardless of the players around me, and once I did take a little bit. Look a little bit closer look at the players around me, I mean, my goodness, did I see a lot of talent? There's a lot of. Really. I'm atrocious at assessing position player talent. I hope that I'm okay. Even just okay, you know, slightly below average to slightly above average would be a blessing at assessing pitching talent. But I was constantly impressed by the arms around me, as I am largely impressed by a lot of arms across baseball at the Triple A and major league level.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Like these.

[John Brebia]

These guys are very talented. For me, as John the Player, it was, funny enough, a lot less, you know, opportunity on teams like you're talking about. You know, I'm sure that's probably something my agent assessed, but for me, it was a lot of, well, where. Where can I be? Where can I be the best pitcher that I can be? Because at the end of the day, you want to do as well as possible, and then you cross your fingers that as well as possible is good enough to be in the big leagues, because that's kind of the. That's the goal. And getting the experience with this staff and with the pitchers around me, you know, helping each other a lot. In spring training, it definitely stuck with me where I was like, man, this is a place where I feel like I can learn a lot and I can bounce ideas off people, and it's a good atmosphere, and it's. It's a team that plays with, you know, a little fire and a little excitement, and they want to win and they grind away, you know, no matter what the score is, no matter what the inning is. And that type of team approach is something that. That I like to be a part of. It makes for exciting baseball.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[John Brebia]

So, yes, I think all the things that you were talking about is something that is. Is absolutely valid. I would say that that's, for me, That's a lot more of something that I'm sure my my agent was will assess versus what I will assess.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And for years, the Rockies were perceived to be behind the curve and slow to adopt new ideas, new technology. And there were even players who would come out and be frustrated by the lack of resources or even resistance in some cases. But with a new regime that seems to have changed, you have some guys on that team who have made major changes, seemingly even some the of like Antonio Citella, who has been there his whole career. He's been there forever, but he has made some changes. He's throwing a lot fewer four seamers, he picked up a cutter. He's doing lots of things differently, and he's having a career year now with a completely different pitch mix. And so I wonder what you have observed about, even if you weren't there before, how the team has modernized and tried to catch up as quickly as it could.

[John Brebia]

I only know some of those same things that you talked about prior to this new generation of staff in front office, but I, yes, I had heard those same things where they were a little bit more reluctant or resistant to big, sweeping changes that other teams were making. My experience coming into spring training with all new staff and stuff like that was as expected, the polar opposite it was is, let's see what we can do. Let's modernize as quickly as possible. Some of the staff that was here, Gabe Rebus and Matt Daniels, I had worked with in the past with the Tigers and with the Giants, and I got to know them a little bit and respected them a lot. And when I got to spring training and saw what they were doing, it was very much what their goal was. Let's take all this information, let's apply it as best as we can. And for me personally, I showed up and they said, hey, we're going to try X, Y and Z. Tell us what you think. And I did it. And then when X, Y and Z was, you know, some of it I liked, some of it I wasn't very good at. We tried, okay, let's, let's do L, M and N. And we try, you know, and maybe one of those stuck. And so, you know, go through your litany of letters and, and see what works and all that stuff. And I it appears that that is a similar approach that they may have taken with other guys. We think, we think, you know, however many things could possibly work, let's try them out. And, and I think some of that is sticking. And I think you're seeing, you know, There was, there was a lot of raw talent, I thought, on the team. And I think a lot of that raw talent is turning into really incredible major League baseball players, which I think is so fun to see. Plus, I do, I enjoy the stuff. The guys that I've known prior to signing with the Rockies this year, I've seen a lot of their work and have respected a lot of their work. So it's fun to see it up close and action, action.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So what has and hasn't worked for you as far as tweaks that you've implemented or tried to implement, whether with the Rockies or with the Braves before or whomever?

[John Brebia]

Yeah, the. The second that I retire, I will answer that question to the fullest extent. I can't imagine anyone cares all that much about doing a scattering report on me at this point. But just in case there's one person out there who wants to know precisely what I'm doing because they have this sick desire to hit a thousand foot home run off of me, I just cannot give away. I won't say anything specific, but to be honest, it is remarkably simple. Where we saw this trend in baseball where it was leaning really, really heavily into pitch shapes and numbers and statistics and all of that stuff gave us a lot of really good information. And now all of that really good information looks like it's leaning towards okay, how do we apply it to the more traditional approach of baseball where it's like mixed speeds up, down, in, out. How can we sort of combine the best of both worlds? So the changes that I've been making have been as best as I can trying to apply the best of both worlds. What new stuff can I learn because of the technology and the minds behind it? And then how can I apply that to the best way to pitch and to get guys out and to use that art of baseball with the science of baseball? And it's been very cool and it's been very fun to experience. It's been very fun to watch and with a lot of the guys around me who are like just have electric arms and lightning stuff, it's so fun to watch that I'm having fun doing it myself. But I'm very boring to watch. They are so exciting to watch do it. So it's very fun.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Can't wait for the tell all post retirement interview. Everything.

[John Brebia]

I can promise it's going to be a letdown, but

[Ben Lindbergh]

hopefully it won't be for a while because the changes work so well.

[John Brebia]

But that's what we're crossing our fingers

[Ben Lindbergh]

for one Thing the Rockies were at least experimenting with this year, I know, was calling pitches from the dugout, which is something that the Marlins introduced at the big league level last year. And the Marlins former pitching coach is now the Rockies current pitching coach. And as I understand it, it's kind of collaborative, and I don't know how it's evolved since you were there this spring, but this is something that seems to be catching on around the league, which I have some reservations about just as a spectator, just because I kind of like the idea that the players are making up their own minds and doing their own thing, even as I understand that there probably is an advantage to be gained there if you have the smart number crunching people running the numbers on what the best pitches to throw in each situation would be. So how have you experienced that or. Or how have you witnessed that being implemented? How has that worked for you?

[John Brebia]

It's funny you say that. That's like. That's that blend of art and science that I. I think is sort of that next super valuable step, super important step in. In progressing baseball. I'm. I. I am definitely a little bit of a romance as a baseball ball fan.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I'm.

[John Brebia]

I'm a romantic. I want to see the starter go. If they are at eight innings, 97 pitches, and they're three times through the lineup, maybe coming up on a fourth. I want to see him throw that complete game. That's so cool. I know it's statistically not the right choice, but the. The fan in me wants to see him. Wants to see him go, Nice.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You got to get in the game, though. Yeah.

[John Brebia]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

The pitcher in the.

[John Brebia]

Wants to save in the ninth, but yeah, so there's. It's funny, I'm. I'm battling a little bit of what I enjoy watching as a fan versus what. What is the right decision as a. As a baseball player. I've thrown two innings with the Rockies in the big leagues, so my sample size is remarkably small, too.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Scoreless.

[John Brebia]

Yeah.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[John Brebia]

That's. Yeah. Thank goodness. Despite, I want to say there being an average exit velocity of. Of 110 miles an hour on a few of those fortunately foul balls. But, yeah, I think that across baseball, you're seeing it a lot more pitch calling coming from the dugout, and I think that we're in a. A little bit of a trial and error phase of when is there a correct pitch to throw based on what a hitter can and can't do versus what a pitcher can and can't do? And when is it a Little bit more feel. What did that previous hitter swing look like? What pitches have they seen today? Because there are just so many variables that, that go into throwing the quote unquote correct pitch that, that I think it makes it the, the concept of calling pitches from the dugout, I think is really strong, but it's the application that teams are trying to figure out right now. In my two innings, I, I couldn't tell you, I can't tell you what's, you know, if it's, if it's perfect or imperfect or where there can be, you know, benefits or advantages taken. Taken from it. But I think, because a lot of teams are doing it, I, I think that it's something that's really exciting to see what will work and what won't work. That's, that's also kind of exciting too. It's a. I hope I'm not the one that's experiencing out there when it doesn't work. But, but I definitely think there's, there's a middle ground where, you know, players on the field are going to have to go with their gut and, but then they're also, also should be taking suggestions from the, from the dugout as I think most teams are calling them pitch suggestions more than, more than pitch calling, which I, I think is a very fair way to look at it. But yeah, there's. As a fan, I love seeing the pitchers and catchers do it, but as a player, it's like, no, sometimes I don't know what to do. Sometimes I have absolutely no idea because guess what? Maybe I forgot.

[Meg Rowley]

What?

[John Brebia]

Oh, shoot. Is this the guy that, that can hit fastballs down or is this the guy that can't hit fastballs down, away. And when you see so many different names and so many different hitters, Sky Reports can just be tricky to remember. Um, so it's really nice to have that help from the dugout.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. So are you even conscious of how the signs are being relayed then? I don't know if you're someone who typically just whatever the catcher tells you you do or whether it's more of a two way street, but if the catcher getting signs from the dugout, like I guess what, Brett Sullivan was catching you in your rockiest debut. So are you even aware of how the sign is coming to you or is it just. Well, the voice in my pitchcom said throw this.

[John Brebia]

So yeah, the pitchcom, Lord, is giving you signs. The, you know, so we. There was an outing in spring training where it was coming from the dugout and maybe Because I, I knew that that was going to be the first outing where we did it. I was paying a little closer attention, but I could. In spring training, I could definitely. I was standing there and I could watch the catcher look in, get the sign, and give it to me. The other day, to be totally honest, I wasn't quite as focused on it, so I, I did not notice the catcher looking in or however they're relaying signs or whatever it may be. If, if you had asked me right after the game, hey, was he getting signs from the dugout? I would have said, oh, you know what, what? I don't know. Maybe. So he. He could have or he could not have. I. I actually don't know either way. The. The inning was, you know, the pace of the inning was. Was totally fine. So if they were doing it, it wasn't getting in the way of anything.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So. Are you having to change your conditioning routine at all to adjust to the altitude? I know you're in Minnesota as we speak, so you're not gasping for breath during our interview or anything, but are you doing more wind sprints or fewer wind sprints or what's the plan?

[John Brebia]

Yeah, that's. It's. That's fun.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[John Brebia]

If. Look, if I was. If I was in Denver doing this interview, it have been over 10 minutes ago, because I'd be huffing and puffing now. The. I got. Let's see, I was in. I signed with. With the Rockies and went to Albuquerque two and a half weeks ago. Three, maybe three weeks ago. And Albuquerque is a higher altitude than. Than course, so I was there for a few days. We did a road trip for a couple of weeks, too, in Salt Lake and Tacoma. So Tacoma's more. More sea level. Salt Lake's a good bit higher. So I've somewhat conditioned myself on those road trips. And then for about a week in Albuquerque. Yeah, you got to hit the cardio a little bit more that run in from the bullpen to. I mean, I am just praying that the umpire checks my hands halfway through. Through, because then I can sit there and be like, look, I'm tired. I know you're tired from standing out here working all day. Just let me count to three before I. Before you start that clock and I can run in there.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Got to get a bullpen cart in action there.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. People might finally start taking it, but no, it's. It's. You change it up a little bit, but, you know, you power through when you can.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Now you are, as we speak. Don't Want to jinx anything but I think you're on a 10 game scoreless streak if we, we combine levels and organizations. So watch out. Christopher Sanchez, Oral Hersheyser, you're coming for them.

[John Brebia]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So I'm sure. And that helped earn this call up for you. And when you were with St. Paul in, in AAA for the Twins, you were pitching pretty well, strikeout and walk rate wise. But you just had a few bad outings in there, which I guess any pitcher can say, well, if you just took out the few bad games then my ERA would be great. But you know, there was like one three homer game. Right. Which sort of screwed things up for you.

[John Brebia]

Don't forget the two doubles off the wall too. Don't forget that if the wall was just a little bit lower, it would have been a five if you'd been

[Ben Lindbergh]

in Albuquerque or Denver. Yeah. Oh yeah.

[John Brebia]

Oh yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So did a, a switch flip at some point when you went to Albuquerque. You have not given up a run as a member of the Rockies organization. So is that coincidence luck or is that one of the mysterious changes that you may or may not have implemented?

[John Brebia]

Sheer luck for sure. No, there's throughout spring training, the beginning of the season when I started with St. Paul, blended together approach wise, trying some new things, seeing what's effective, seeing what's not effective, making some mid season changes that some worked. Some, some. Boy did they not work. And we can point to a. I believe I almost immediately after the barrage of home runs there was also a barrage of walks. So you know, some of those new things didn't go so well, didn't work so well. So I would say that this is a little bit more tinkering and not major overhauling. And I, I've just, I've gotten extremely lucky as well. I faced some really good hitters and, and boy have they maybe just missed some pitches. So I will cross my fingers to hope that that happens as much as possible. But we'll see going forward.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I was reading an article by Tyler Kepner in the Athletic about Rick Sweet, the manager of the Nashville Sounds who is coming up on the all time number of games managed. He's going to set the record for most games managed in the minors. And, and there was a quote in this piece from Terry Collins, former major league and minor league manager who said AAA manager is the hardest job in baseball because half your team isn't happy. And I, I guess the idea is that you have guys who have been in the bigs and they are unhappy that they're not there or they haven't been there yet and they feel like they should be. And so you're so close and yet so far. And maybe you have some guys who are on the downside of their career and so they're kind of trying to recapture the former glory and everything. So having spent some time in AAA recently, is that the case? And did you try not to be one of the unhappy guys?

[John Brebia]

Yeah, there's a. Yeah, it's funny. I think that yes, there are definitely people that are unhappy. I attempt to be not unhappy, but there's a lot of it is just driven by that desire to be in the matrix major leagues. Oftentimes it's less unhappy because they're a miserable person or something like that. And it's more unhappy because it's. I just. I want it so bad. I want the big league so bad. So I, I think that there's. It can often get construed as a little bit more negative when, when there are definitely. There are definitely people that may be unhappy and it's not fun to be around, but there are also people out there and. And I was one of them. In aaa. Was I unhappy to be in Triple A? Yes, of course. Was I, hopefully. Was I not miserable? Yeah, I would like to think that maybe I wasn't super miserable to be around. But yeah, definitely, it's. It's more of this drive to want to be in the big leagues that I think can. Can take over a team. That is a very funny line where it's half your team is unhappy, which is. I'd also say half your team is there for two weeks and then it's. Then there's turnover too. Like you're dealing with so many different people. Also, especially, especially I think in the modern game there's so much turnover at the AAA level. But yeah, there's grateful to play. For me personally, grateful to play at any level, grateful to be given the opportunity. But you, yeah, you want to get out of the minor leagues. The big leagues is so cool and anyone that's experienced the big leagues and is in the minor leagues, I think has that itch where it's. We gotta get back. It's so great up there.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Challenge.

[John Brebia]

The extreme challenge. You know, the, the, the lifestyle, the flights, the hotels, like, it's, Everything is just. It's so nice. And then you get to go out there and you get to compete against the best and it feels really good when even if the best in baseball hits a screaming line drive that almost takes your face off. But it's caught by the center fielder. As a pitcher, you feel pretty good. You got him out.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna ask you about that. Cause I was thinking about the Bull Durham scene where they're on the bus and Crash Davis is regaling all his teammates with tales of when he was in the show. You know, I was in the show for 21 days, the greatest 21 days of my life. And he's talking about how you never handle your luggage. Somebody else carries your bags, and you hit white balls for batting practice. The ballparks are like. The ballparks are like cathedrals. The hotels all have room service. The women all have long legs and brains, which you would never say as a happy man. But. But the other things, you know, everyone knows about the pay difference and the obvious differences, but what are some of the other lifestyle things where it's just like, oh, I'm in the. It's not so bad to be in aaa, obviously. Like, you know, the. The Durham Bulls in that movie were still a ball, I think, but still, like, what are some of the things you might not know? Just about how kind of cushy it is in the big leagues, even compared to the highest levels of the minor league, man.

[John Brebia]

Yeah. I think the thing that stands out, I think, for me has got to be the flights. It's no secret that teams are chartering planes or own a plane, which in and of itself is fantastic. You have your team, your organization, that's on a single flight. But it's just the ease of which for anyone who has been stuck in an airport line, which has got to be just about anyone who's ever flown, the ease of getting. Getting through an airport onto a plane and then taking off is just so dramatically more comfortable than checking the bag and getting into a security line. And I. I was in Atlanta when they had the. The. The partial government shutdown. And there were. The Atlanta airport is so remarkably busy to begin with. And I get there and it took me about 10 minutes just to find the back of the line. I was in the security line for about two and a half or three hours. I got there early enough to where. Because I knew all this was coming. But that's an extreme example, of course, but there's just. There's just no waiting. You just go right through, and it's just so nice. And to be able to. To be able to get on a plane. So I think that would be. That would. Would be for me, the one where it's like, boy, that is. That convenience is such A, a luxury that I, I've, I've, I've come very much to appreciate it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. That said, I, I wonder how you have observed conditions improve in the minors since you started. Cuz it's been 15 years since you got drafted and made your pro debut, Staten island in the New York Pen league short season. A ball which doesn't even exist anymore. And, and then it's, it's been a decade since you got to aaa. The first time I guess with Memphis and this was before the minor leagues unionized and joined the MLBPA and everything. And so teams were not providing nearly as much to minor leaguers back then. So I wonder what you have observed going back to the minors even if it was just AAA after a while away, aside from maybe the occasional rehab assignment or something. Just how things have evolved.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, there's been some very dramatic differences. A lot less peanut butter and jellies for pregame meals. A lot less, you know, just deli meat sandwiches for pre game meals. And I love a good PB&J. I've got kids. I love a good PB&J. I love a good ham and cheese sandwich. Every now and then the, you know, the, the two of them a day before the game and then the one or two of them a day before after the game that gets to be a little much. So the. Yeah, I think that the, the food being offered, the hotels, to be honest, I cannot remember all that well. But I, I think the food is a huge difference and the housing, which I haven't taken advantage of, but there are some new housing rules and stipulations to where they have to give you your own rules room or something like that or they, they put you up in housing instead of players having to, you know, crawl through these different cities and see like okay, who's. Who can I do a short term lease with that's not going to take my entire paycheck. That has definitely been a big difference. Which is, which has been nice. I think that I think the teams are slowly starting to kind of provide some of those things that, that help with performance. I think that there is plenty to continue to do but at the very least in a decade it has gotten a little bit better.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, and you talked about the turnover and teams are just constantly shuffling their rosters and often it is kind of the back of the bullpen and guys are getting optioned and guys are getting called up and then guys get DFA'd and then they resign. And sometimes that, that happens a few times in a season and there are some limits on how many times you can do certain things over the course of a year. But it's like, you know, you have a 26 man roster, but that's kind of theoretical. It's like you almost have a bunch more guys who are almost on a taxi squad the way that they had during the pandemic, kind of where they're just sort of cycled in and out and we need a fresh arm and. But you know, I'm sure you're always happy to get the call regardless of the circumstances, but it's, as we said, it's pretty disruptive I imagine because. And sometimes guys will come up and they'll have a great game and then they're, they're sent right back down because it's like, well, we just needed you for, for this or someone's coming off the IL or whatever and it's gotta be a tough pill to swallow.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, the performing really well and getting optioned.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah.

[John Brebia]

Is just a, just a miserable feeling. And I, there's, there's restraints on teams and rosters and stuff like that. So those moves are, are, are as of right now kind of part of it. On just a base level, you always want to see good performance rewarded and I'm hoping that, you know, baseball can kind of move towards a little bit more towards that. But it is, it is as of right now and it has been in the past, it is a part of the game where the team's needs and the, the individual players needs don't necessarily always match up perfectly. And it has led, especially lately in the past handful of years it has led to a lot of turnover with teams, a lot of DFA and claiming and, and rosters changing to try and take advantage of, of, you know, having players available and all that stuff. And you know, I, in my perfect world, every major league team has 100 man roster and the league minimum is a trillion dollars. And you know, and stands are packed with people and hot dogs are a dollar. Right. So there's, there's a, there's a lot that, that I, in my utopia that would shift a little bit. But yeah, that's, that's part of it and is the most difficult thing is seeing someone get called up. Especially if it's like a debut or something like that. You get called up and you shove and you're incredible and you're getting guys out left and right and it's like, thanks, thanks, thanks for those couple of innings. Thanks for those few innings. We, yeah, we got to make Another move you're going to play. It's, it's. It is hard to watch, but. But that's. I think part of, part of what makes really good baseball players is being resilient, and that's one of those. Just another thing you have to be resilient about sometimes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Is there kind of parody when it comes to at least some of the resources, the information, the technology, you know, statcast obviously is in the minors as well. And so if you want to look up how you did, or if you want to check out video or get scouting reports on your upcoming opponents or whatever, work on something in the pen, are you able to do that in AAA about as well as you are in the big leagues, or is there still a significant difference there?

[John Brebia]

Yeah, the teams that I have been on, I guess the information that I use is not quite as in depth, I don't think, as the information that some other people might use. So I'm a little bit easier of a candidate to have to deal with because it's like, all right, John's an old fart. He wants to know what the location of the pitch was. He doesn't care about the release tilt versus the brake tilt. Right. Like, there's. There's a lot that I just. I'm just not good enough. So knowing the information isn't going to help me. So the places that I've been, yes, in aaa, I've gotten. I've gotten what I have needed. You know, they can put those portable trackmans up behind home plate for when you're throwing a bullpen before the game and, and there's, you know, every team's got a pitching coach or two that is there to help and that knows the information and, and you can bounce ideas off of, and they can give you ideas and all that stuff. So on. For, for the basics, I would consider myself someone that uses. I use a lot of the basics. You know, I use the basics a lot, but I don't really extend too much beyond that. That is definitely available. I think if you want to get into like the really nitty gritty stuff. If AAA team has two pitching coaches, that's great, and they can, they can do a lot, but their capacity for work is very different than two pitching coaches, a pitching director, a bullpen coach, a director of pitching performance. That's all, that's all on a big league staff, along with all of the analysts that, you know whose offices are down the hall that you can go and ask questions. So there's, you know, as, as you would expect major league teams are special, spending more money on staff to be able to have them available and do more things at the major league level. But I've been so fortunate to work with some really, really, really good, high quality staffs in AAA as well. And for the information that I need, you know, I'm just like an idiot rolling out there. So I'm easy, I'm easy breezy to work with, but they do the best that they can. I wouldn't necessarily call it parody, but I would say that. But depending on the organization, they're trying to give you what they can.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I don't know if the Rockies have a team wide policy when it comes to pitcher challenges because some teams have all but banned pitchers from doing it, given the track record being not so hot. So I don't know whether you've been tempted, whether there is sort of a soft ban in place or what would it take for you to feel like, I'm going for it. I'm tapping the head, I'm tapping the ca.

[John Brebia]

I have actually done it one time. It takes an enormous amount for me to do that because I move a little bit, a lot, you know, a little bit in general during my motion to where. Yeah, prior to having the ABS zone, I'd be throwing pitches to a catcher and the inning would end and I'd walk in there and be like, what in the world? Like, how was that ball not called a strike? And I would go and I'd look and it's like, oh, you framed it incredibly well. I was falling, falling off the mound. My depth perception was a little bit off because where the umpire and where the batter were standing, that was a foot and a half off the plate. Just because I hit you in the chest doesn't mean that, doesn't mean that it was a strike. So I've, I have proven myself wrong plenty of times without the abs. I mean, I told myself I would never use it. And then lo and behold, a couple of weeks ago, I, I did end up using it. I threw a breaking ball. I thought it was right over the plate, but the runner was, there was a run around first, he was going to steal second. So like the catcher pops up, catches the ball, throws it down to second. I didn't really know what the call was. So after the tag gets placed on the runner, I turn back and I say, you know, I shout to the umpire, I, if that was a ball, I would, I would like to challenge it. And he said it was too late. So, so I didn't End up getting to actually challenge it. I did go and look and the ball was directly over the plate. So I was, I was, I was really nervous when I was checking that. But, yeah, so I have, technically, I have attempted to challenge, but I unsuccess. I, apparently I was, I don't know when you're supposed to get your challenges in.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, it's supposed to be like within two seconds, but it's, yeah, it's tough if there's a runner going because that's, yeah, the catcher doesn't get to frame it and the umpire's blocked maybe.

[John Brebia]

And so, yeah, I wasn't sure. That's, Yeah, I could, I could have challenged it, but then I would have gotten hit in the face by the throat of second, so, you know. Oh, well. But I, yeah, I love seeing, I love seeing the challenge system in place. I think it's really exciting. It gives, it gives fans at least a few opportunities a game to, to get really into a call that's about to happen. And if the home team gets it right, there's an explosion of cheers. And if the home team gets it wrong, you, you can kind of like feel that, that depression of energy throughout a stadium. So I think it's a fun thing to have.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And even if you don't give it away on the outside, are you thinking on the inside? Sometimes. I hope my catcher challenges this one. Please challenge that one.

[John Brebia]

Yes. Sometimes, yes. Sometimes I'm thinking like, oh, I, I hope he challenges it because I thought it was a strike. And I would like my arrogance of knowledge of the strike zone to be confirmed by the someone else thinking it was a strike. And every now and then they do, and we get it, but it's. I, I, I will say the catchers that I've thrown to with the abs have been really good. Even if they get it wrong. It's like the timing of when to challenge is, is almost just as important. You know, late in the game, you have challenges left, a big situation, turning a 11 count goes to 12 instead of 2 1, things like that. So even if they do get it wrong, I, I play with some catchers that are very tactfully using, using their challenges.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It does seem like the zone is a little bit different, though, even aside from the challenges. I know there's been some analysis about the way the zone is differently shaped or smaller just because humps are kind of taking into account the challenge zone, which is technically a little different from the 3D strike zone that is still sort of in place. But but is different in terms of. Of where the pitch is judged to be a strike or not. So I know this has been in place in the minors for a while, so I don't know whether you've really felt the impact of that. But certainly earlier this year, the walk rate was way up in the majors as everyone was kind of adjusting to. Wait, what is a strike now? I don't know.

[John Brebia]

It's a big difference. There is definitely a big difference. And you can see it, even if it's, you know, even a few inches total is. Is massive. I mean, you see a lot of these challenges that are less than an inch, you know, going one way or the other. So I believe the office of the commissioner's idea for baseball was to speed the game up a little bit and provide more offense or more excitement in that way. And, and what they've done to the strike zone is, is, you know, it's maybe not speeding up the game, the pitch clock is doing that, but it is definitely, I think, providing more opportunity for offense because there are, you know, you look at some of the calls that used to happen a handful of. A handful of years ago. You can't just throw the ball to the catcher's glove six times in a row and like, all right, he's hitting the spot. So this is, this is our strike zone. But yeah, they've, they've def. It's definitely shrunk. A what? As a pitcher, I would say it's shrunk considerably. I'm sure hitters would be like, yeah, it's a little smaller, but nothing crazy.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So when I talked to you last year, your agent, Joe Rosen, emailed me to say he really enjoyed the conversation. But I can't believe you didn't ask him about his walk up song. And is it even called a walk up song if you're a pitcher, I'd call it maybe an entrance song.

[John Brebia]

The Exhausted Run Out Song at Altitude.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah, you're jogging in song. But. But I did not ask you about it. And I told him if I had you on again, I would. So please feel free to share.

[John Brebia]

I mean, it's a. It's a classic. It's Wham, Wake Me up before youe Go Go. It was picked for me in the year would have been 2012. The radio announcer at the time in Charleston, South Carolina was. I was playing for the Charleston River Dogs and the Yankees organization.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And.

[John Brebia]

And our announcer was picking different walkout songs for people who didn't really have a preference. And I didn't really have A preference. And I, I will never forget the college was. Had just gotten back in or just gotten out, something like that. Like there were a lot of college students still in Charleston, so. And that's usually when the games are. Are pretty packed and they played it. And I mean it was just. The fans loved it. Like you could sing along to it. I think the movie Zoolander is just hysterical and the gasoline fight cracks me up. It's so ridiculous. And I think it's one of the funniest scenes and it's playing during that scene too. So there was just a lot of things that kind of went into it that made it just really fun and, and seeing like songs don't really do it for me. You know, like, I love music but like I can't put a song on and then all of a sudden be like kind of ramped up or anything like that. Yeah. And fear does it for me. You put someone who's 6 foot 6 and 300 pounds in the batter's box, that'll get you going a little bit.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Fight or flight kicks it.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, so, so I've never been terribly picky about. About songs, but when he, when he chose that song and, and it played and just seeing like the crowd reaction, I thought, oh, this is, this is what I would want to hear if I was here watching the game. And I have just kept it since. So it's been, it's been a good 14 years of wake me up before you go though.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. People like the sort of idiosyncratic or anachronistic song choice because most guys are going to go with a song that is currently or recently popular. And so when you hear something a little older, maybe that appeals to the older audience, but it just might be more recognizable to people who are not listening to top 40 or hot 100 or whatever.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's. It mixes it up a little bit. It's different. It's. It's happy and it's upbeat and that's, That's I think a good thing now.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You got to get the like Edwin Diaz, joann Duran style. The lights come off and then Wham plays and then you know, everyone gets psyched as you sprint in and then gasp for breath on the mount. But yeah, the whole choreographed, you know, live. Live performers and trumpets and I guess when you're a more of a middle inning guy maybe, maybe you don't tend to get that treatment.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[John Brebia]

The John Brady's of the world don't necessarily see flames on the board and then let one rip at 91. Yeah. The one thing I have asked teams for is like, hey, is there any chance that we could get the gasoline fight from Zoolander on the Jumbotron? And there are some copyright issues, so to be fair, they don't feel like paying to be able to use that scene. I, I completely get that I should ask how much it is and gauge just how badly I want it. But, but yeah, that, that's the one, that's the one thing I have asked. And they're like, ah, come on man, we're not going through all this just to play something ridiculous for you as you run into the game.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You have been a little bit of a long man. I mean, not exactly, but a lot of your outings in AAA and your first big league outing, it seems like, I mean, you've got gone two innings as often as you've gone one, it seems like this year. So I don't know whether that is a conscious thing or your stuff just suits that or what because that wasn't always the case with you in the big leagues. You know, a lot of relievers are one inning guys, but you have doubled up quite often this year.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, I think the teams are wanting to see pitchers that can do a little bit more than just come in, throw an inning and, and go home. When you're, you're trying to piece together a game, sometimes, sometimes the best thing is to have someone get stretched out a little bit. Sometimes the best thing is to have someone just come in, throw, throw one hitter, get the last out of the inning and go. But I think that, that overall teams with their pitchers at the AAA level, they can't just have, if you're going to call someone up, you rarely call up a closer. You know, wow, he's doing, he's doing great in Triple A. Let's call him up and give him the ninth inning when we're up by two. Generally when you call guys up, it's, it's to be in a little bit more of those extended roles. So yeah, so this year I've stretched out a little bit just to make sure I can go two innings and all that stuff. And I, I, you do what you can out of necessity and out of what the team needs. And that's something that a lot of teams I think are looking for in those roles.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So there's, there's CBA bargaining going on as we speak, or there was today. In fact, I got a press release from the MLBPA during this conversation with a Statement on today's bargaining session. It's still early days and it's still sort of opening offers and proposals being exchanged that don't look that different from your hundred man roster, $1 hot dog, infinite minimum salary proposal. But how, how closely are you and most players following this and how do you stay on top of it? How do you find out what's going on and who proposed what and how are you feeling about all of it?

[John Brebia]

Yeah, there's your meetings in spring training where, you know, kind of the idea of, of what the union is looking for and what, what the teams are looking for and the owners are looking for sort of gets laid out sometimes. There are even meetings during the season with Rob Manfred and other folks at the commissioner's office that I would maybe call them kind of touch points, more so than, you know, negotiating terms. But you know, something like today where there's actual exchanges of information, I would say that for the most part, people stay pretty informed. As far as players go, they seem pretty informed. You know, it's an important part of players careers. And so whether someone thinks it's interesting or not, like I do find it to be interesting, but it's also, even if you don't think it's interesting, it impacts, it impacts the players a lot. So it's something that everyone, just about everyone, I think is, is kind of keen on staying in the loop about and learning about. I would say that more people lean towards learning and understanding than, you know, immediately having the, these vocal opinions because I think there's, there's just so much that when you do hear, when that press release comes out today, there's a lot of information that needs to be digested. So you go to your team rep or, you know, we're sitting in the bullpen for a, for an hour or so before anyone needs to warm up and we're chatting about it. Things like that happen a lot more. And then as negotiations sort of go on and, and teams start to, players on the team start to form opinions and look for what they want and see what they want, then you can kind of get into the like, okay, this is, this is where it's heading. And then you get a little bit more of those opinions. But I'm always fascinated. Anything negotiating, I'm fascinated with whether it's, whether it's when I called and negotiate a new phone, a new cell service bill, or whether, you know, and it's, it's, it's a difference of pennies or whether I'm, I'm looking at major league salaries, and it's a difference of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Like, it's. It's all very fascinating to me, and the tactics that. That are sort of in play during all of this stuff is, to me, is a lot of fun. I'm an extremely petty person, though, so I'm like the. I'm like the last person in the world you want negotiating, because I will die on any hill. It's, you know, if we want the smallest thing in the world, we gotta have wet wipes in the bathroom in the clubhouse. If the owners say no, I'll never play again, I'm standing strong. I'm not buying my own wet. Right? Like, that's. I'm just the worst when it comes to that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So.

[John Brebia]

So I. I love keeping my eyes on it, and I love learning and understanding what's happening because it. I mean, in all seriousness, it is very important for. For players to understand and know, but I think guys do a really good job of that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And having been on several organizations in the past year or so, I guess you probably have a decent sense of how people are feeling. You got your fingers on the pulse. So. So I'm sure everyone's kind of bracing for a lockout to be imposed, presumably not long after the season, as was the case in the previous round of bargaining. Do you get the sense that everyone is more or less in lockstep here or committed? Maybe not as much with the wet wipes specifically, but, yeah, it's just me

[John Brebia]

with the wet wipes, with the real things that are happening. Yeah, I. I would say that. That it's. There's probably more unity in. In heading into this cba. I would say this CBA and some of the. Was it. I'm going to mess up the year here? Was it 2023? 2020. Going into 23. I got my ears confused. Yeah, I would say that year. And. And just so far from what I'm seeing this year, there's been a lot of. A lot of unity. A lot of people think. Thinking, you know, kind of thinking along the same lines, which is, you know, from. When you head into the cba, it's a. It's a really cool thing to see. And more importantly, I think people know what they want. It's less of. Less of everyone having their. Having their own ideas and kind of being confused on what's happening. And. All right, what are the. What are the owners saying? What is the league saying? And it's really cool to see where it's like, no, we we understand. We've heard this for a few years. Years. And, and, you know, thankfully for the, for the pa, they have really good folks on staff that can help explain and help help teach guys what they're looking for and all that. And, and it's been really cool to see everyone sort of kind of come together and agree on their own versus, like, one person saying, hey, this is the stance we're going to take, and everyone else going, okay, it's more like, hey, no, this is kind of what we want. What do you all think? Think? And everyone's sitting there going, well, yeah, I want that. It's a, it's a very, it's a very different sense of. It's a very different sense of unity. I got, and I, and I sort of got it from the last one, too, and I think it's a continuation of the same thing. So, so I'm, I, I'm, I think that's very cool. I'm probably the one that's the most ridiculous with all of my crazy demands.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But, well, having been around the block a bit and been through a few rounds of this and everything, are you one of the people who will help? Even if you're not a player rep, are you sort of helping explain things or I guess, you know, even when you were in the minors and there are some younger guys there, whether it's about CPA stuff or non CPA stuff, just have you taken on the, the veteran mentor, passing on your wisdom role?

[John Brebia]

If, if it's something that I am familiar with and that I understand, I, I will do my best, but I, I think the most important thing that I can do is pass people off to folks that know what they're doing. I always make it a point to be like, well, this is what I think, but I'm going to send you to someone who knows their stuff and you can get their opinion. So it has been a little bit of that, but every year is different. There's new things that come up and there's new things that change. So it's fun to see kind of people forming their own opinions, too.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, I'm sorry it didn't work out with, with the Red Sox, your hometown team. Not the most distinguished tenure, I guess. Did, did you grow up rooting for the Red Sox?

[John Brebia]

Yeah, yeah, I grew up about 30 minutes or so outside the city. So, yeah, I was, I was a Nomar Garcia para Pedro Martinez, you know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, I guess you didn't quite join those ranks when it comes to Red Sox legends, but you know those few days you spent on the il.

[John Brebia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

With Hen Foot Master. You made your contribution to the Red Sox highly.

[John Brebia]

Consider making sure I didn't touch anyone.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But glad you caught on with the Rockies and that things are going well lately. I hope they continued to it's always good to have John Brebia in the big leagues and also on Effectively Wild. So always a pleasure to have you. Whether things are going well or not going well or you're in the minors or the majors, whatever it is. Standing invitation to come back on the show. Great to talk to you.

[John Brebia]

Well, I. I very much appreciate it. It's always a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[Ben Lindbergh]

All right. Well, after we finished recording, I told John maybe we can have him back on during the lockout when nothing else is happening. And he said yeah, everyone else will be back in. He'll still be out because of the wet wipes. He'll be holding out for those. Bruce Meyer did say on Thursday. I will tell you with all honesty, I have never seen this degree of unity at this point among agents and players. I think honestly the league has done us a favor. Favor because their proposals are in fact so obviously and extremely bad for players at all level that it's actually been a benefit for our unity. Anybody who's banking on Major League Baseball players cracking, it's never happened. It's not going to happen. That's why we're the only ones who don't have a salary cap. Well, of course that's what you're going to say if you're in Bruce Meyer's position or even John Preppius. Yes, we're united. You can't possibly break us. And of course the union has been through some leadership turnover and turmoil, but perhaps there is true truth to reports of that resolve. Time will tell. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com effectively wild and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks, as have the following five listeners. Dylan, Jake, Mike, Heckman, Adam and Heming Boy. Thanks to all of you, Patreon. Perks include unrestricted access to our very next episode and the third episode of every week. Well, it's not always the third episode, but a third episode, largely exclusive to Patreon supporters, as is our monthly bonus episode and exclusive live streams and membership in our Discord Group for patrons only. You can also get prioritized email answers, personalized messages, shout outs at the end of episodes, potential podcast appearances, Fangrass memberships, and more. Check out all the [e-mail] effectivelywild if you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcastamgraphs.com youm can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music, and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook [e-mail] group effectivelywild. You can find the effectively wild subreddit at r effectivelywild, and you can check the show notes in the podcast post at fangraphs or Patreon, or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We will be back with one more episode before the end of the week, which means we will talk to you soon. Well, it's moments like these that make you ask how can you not be horny about baseball? Every take hot and hotter entwining and a butting Watch him climb big mountain nothing's bounding every stitch wet with sweat breaking ball back door me on effectively While I can you not be horny when it comes to podcast, how can you not be horny.