Effectively Wild Episode 2509: Won’t Stand for It

Summary

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Effectively Wild Episode 2509: “Won’t Stand for It”

Podcast: Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast
Hosts: Ben Lindbergh, Meg Rowley
Guest Host: Peter Armstrong
Date: July 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode offers a lively exploration of recent baseball quirks, player controversies, and ethical debates swirling around the game. Ben, Meg, and Peter dig into recent Shohei Ohtani-related comments by President Trump, dissect a viral incident involving a Cubs fan during the national anthem, and devote substantial time to the “gamesmanship” of Yankees infielder Jose Caballero in flustering pitchers with his plate routine. Special guests include Jacob Redman, the Cubs fan at the heart of the anthem-sitting incident, and a snippet of Ben’s interview with Kenny Lofton, covering Hall of Fame injustices. The episode’s tone is playful, skeptical, and inquisitive, in classic Effectively Wild fashion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Presidential Baseball Gaffes: Shohei Ohtani, Kershaw, and Outfield Claims

[00:00–10:45]

• Ben opens with Trump’s recent comments at the Dodgers’ White House visit, especially the bizarre assertion that Shohei Ohtani is “just about the best pitcher… hitter… and fielder in the outfield in baseball” ([03:05]).
• The crew jokes about presidential sports knowledge, with Meg delivering a pitch-perfect Trump imitation regarding Clayton Kershaw:

  “Clayton Kershaw. Where’s Clayton? I want to say. Winner. He’s a winner… and he’s still pitching. Well, I’ll bet right.” — Meg Rowley as Trump ([01:52])

• They analyze whether Ohtani could have been a great outfielder had he pursued it, emphasizing that being a world-class pitcher/hitter is already superhuman.

  “It’s certainly false in the sense that he has not played outfield aside from a few stray innings… But is there some possibility that were he to apply himself… Ohtani might be capable of being the best fielder in the outfield?” — Ben ([03:13])
  “He’s so big is the other thing… I think that’s the ideal height to be a center fielder is like PCA’s height, because you can be nimble — closer to balletic than hulking.” — Peter ([05:36])

• Trump’s “just riffing,” surmise the hosts, and the discussion offers insight into athlete specialization and the challenges of switching positions at the highest level.

Memorable Moment:

• The panel laughing at the notion of “a possibility” if Ohtani had dedicated himself to the outfield, but “almost certainly not” now, especially given age and injury ([06:41]).

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2. National Anthem Incident at Wrigley: Jacob Redman Exclusive

[10:45–14:22]

• Ben previews a listener-exclusive: Jacob Redman, the Cubs fan who was slapped for sitting during the anthem, breaks his silence on the podcast.
• The team meticulously details their verification efforts with Jacob, highlighting the importance of fact-checking in the era of deepfakes.

  “Because I am in ‘trust, verify’ mode this week… we wanted to document that Jacob was who he said he was… He sent us documentary evidence…” — Ben ([11:20]) “The conversation did not strike me as one from someone who would fib about these things. And he was a good sport about our repeated attempts to verify…” — Peter ([14:22])

• They tease Jacob’s story: what really happened after the clip cut off, the fallout, and his reflections.

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3. Kenny Lofton’s Hall of Fame Case and Ballot Precedent

[14:45–20:22]

• Ben spotlights his Ringer piece on Hall of Fame “ballot amnesty” and his conversation with Kenny Lofton—raising the possibility that overlooked stars (like Lofton, Jim Edmonds, Johan Santana) might be able to get a “second chance” given historical precedent from the 1980s and 1990s.

  “He meets my standards, I think, and probably clears it quite handily… He would be welcoming [guys like Beltrán and Jones] this weekend. Instead, he is watching from afar…” — Ben ([17:03])

• The logjam of the 2010s ballots, caused by PED scandals, prevented otherwise worthy candidates from gaining traction.
• Shows difference between areas committee (every three years, eight players only) and the main BBWAA ballot, emphasizing how hard it is for players to get reconsidered once dropped.

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4. Jose Caballero and the Art of Annoying Pitchers

[22:57–40:53]

• The main topic of the episode: Yankees infielder Jose Caballero’s notorious plate routine, where he waits to “alert” the pitcher at the last possible second, described as “gamesmanship” and “brinksmanship.”

  “He is famous for waiting until the very last second … and that has rankled many a pitcher over the years because … they aren’t quite sure when they are able to actually begin their delivery.” — Peter ([22:57]) “He wants to wrestle some control back and have some agency and sort of set the tone, set the pace…” — Ben ([24:21])

• The Controversy: This week, a benches-clearing incident with the Pirates (Dennis Santana) occurred after Caballero was penalized for his stalling, with umpires declaring his actions violated the spirit of the pitch clock rule.
• The Rule: The panel reads from the official rulebook about “conduct by batters designed to deceive a pitcher,” debating if Caballero fits the technical or just the “spirit” of the rule ([24:41]).

  “There has to be a better way to phrase that. They were instructed to violate him…” — Peter ([25:48])

• Philosophical Arguments:
  • Is it fair to penalize a player for something that’s only being enforced now?
  • Should a minor infraction be tolerated if it adds character and narrative rather than affecting outcomes?

  “Sports benefit from the presence of a heel when the thing they're doing isn't really a problem. And I don't think this is really a problem. I think it's fine...It's fun.” — Peter ([29:18])

• Stats Check:
  • “What do you think Jose Caballero's batting average is? … He's hitting 244. He's striking out 22% of the time. He’s at 91 WRC+.” — Peter ([30:20])
• Team Hypocrisy:
  • They note fans only embrace the “heel” when he dons their laundry; formerly, the Yankees and their supporters hated Caballero, but now lionize him.

  “We love heel when they're on our team. We all have that guy.” — Peter ([36:54])

  • Ben points out, “I’ve seen some people suggest that Jose Caballero is not good enough to be exhibiting this sort of behavior. That's exactly why he should do it.” ([33:22])
• Wider Impact:
  • Should MLB crack down, or is it barely worth worrying over since Caballero is so unique in doing this?

  “It's not like there's like a rash of pitch clock shenanigans that people are engaged in…” — Peter ([40:12])

  • Ben notes it could be about game pace: “If it goes beyond that, to the point where… delays… maybe it is actually more valuable to speed the game along…” ([39:02])

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Notable Quotes

• On Trump and Baseball Spin:

  “But you know what, maybe we'll move on. Trump did essentially order the occupation of part of Los Angeles last year, as I recall. But all is forgiven… I wanted to draw your attention to one remark that President Trump made of a baseball nature…” — Ben Lindbergh ([00:32])

• On Verifying the Cubs Fan:

  “I think he more than satisfied the preponderance of the evidence standard and probably went well beyond that. So there's no way we can 100% verify, I suppose... but I do believe that Jacob is who he says he was.” — Ben ([13:49])

• On the Importance of Baseball Heels:

  "Is he being a little bit of a dick? Yeah, that's why it's fun, you know, and—and we shouldn't be... but this, this to me falls within the realm of like, acceptable brinksmanship within the hitter-pitcher matchup." — Peter ([30:22])

• On Fangraphs’ Fact-checking Ethos:

  “That is the responsible thing to do. Yes. And we are nothing if not responsible.” — Ben ([14:37])

• Classic EW Humor:

  "He is a Lima bean sized pebble in... Now you could just say, isn't that just pebble size? And I'm saying, let me have my—have my bits." — Peter ([37:24])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:32 — Trump’s Ohtani and Kershaw remarks; beginning of Ohtani outfield speculation
• 03:05 — Breakdown of Ohtani’s defender/fielder claim
• 05:24–07:20 — Physical and athletic factors for outfield play
• 10:45 — Cubs national anthem incident introduction and Jacob Redman story preview
• 14:45 — Kenny Lofton & Hall of Fame ballot discussion
• 22:57 — Introduction and in-depth analysis of Jose Caballero’s pitch clock shenanigans
• 24:41–25:49 — The exact MLB rule and how umpires responded in this case
• 30:20 — Caballero’s stats: why his antics aren’t affecting outcomes
• 33:51–36:38 — On team hypocrisy and the rise of the folk hero
• 39:02 — Debating whether MLB should act to end Caballero’s routine
• 40:53 — End of primary discussion (advertising cut off)

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Summary & Takeaways

• Presidential Knowledge Gaps: The pod uses Trump’s Ohtani/Kershaw gaffes to springboard into a thoughtful, funny examination of how rare and difficult two-way baseball excellence is.
• Viral Cubs Incident: The podcast models journalistic rigor and shares an exclusive fan perspective on a viral national anthem incident, highlighted by careful verification.
• HOF Disappointments: Ben’s piece on Hall of Fame ballot precedents and his Kenny Lofton interview prompt calls for more flexibility and fairness in HOF processes.
• Baseball’s Need for Characters: Caballero exemplifies the tradition of harmless “heels” and minor controversy that create spice and drama, even when the stakes are statistically minuscule.
• Rules and Enforcement: Should baseball apply ambiguous rules strictly and suddenly, or let quirks persist if they create harmless fun? The hosts all agree that consistency, communication, and a sense of humor are crucial.

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Effectively Wild 2509 is a robust, entertaining example of how minor weirdness and controversy in baseball often point to deeper questions—about expertise, ethics, history, and the right to be a pebble in someone’s shoe.

Transcript

[Meg Rowley]

Anything is fair game, even Key K's dirty pants. And maybe if you're lucky, you will

[Peter Armstrong]

cold call by the chance.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You never know precisely where it's gonna go. By definition, Effectively Wild. Hello and welcome to episode 2509 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs, presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer, joined by Meg Rally of fangraphs. Hello, Meg.

[Meg Rowley]

Hello.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I suppose I should also introduce myself as juror number four because the trial rolls on, it continues and so does Effectively Wild. Nonetheless. And we've got a lot to talk about today. We've got some exciting guests, we've got a bit of banter, and I'm excited because this weekend, Jesse and I are taking Sloan to her first ever baseball game. And of course, I will deliver a full report on our next episode. Good. Shohei Ohtani and the Dodgers are paying a personal visit at Citi Field. Of course, they also visited the White House on Thursday, and I'm sure there's plenty we could say about that. But you know what? Maybe we'll move on. Trump did essentially order the occupation of part of Los Angeles last year, as I recall. But all is forgiven. I guess it's one of those delightful sports traditions like the national anthem before baseball games, which will play a prominent part on this podcast. But I wanted to draw your attention to one remark that President Trump made of a baseball nature, and it was Shohei Ohtani related and in contrast to the truth about many of the things the President says. For example, just to give a very low stakes example, his contention that Clayton Kershaw is still pitching.

[Meg Rowley]

Clayton Kershaw. Where's Clayton? I want to say. Winner. He's a winner. You talk about a winner. Fantastic. Look at that guy. I watched him beat a lot of our teams that were supposed to do well. They didn't do too well against him. And he's still pitching. Well, I'll bet right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, he's spending time with the family now, sir.

[Meg Rowley]

Well, yeah, but it is called ultimately talent, right?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes.

[Meg Rowley]

Would you say talent is the whole ball game? You could pitch right now if. If they needed you, you'd be out there, right? No.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Maybe he was making a comment on how betting on baseball is a bad idea because you usually lose. Because he would lose that bet. He is not pitching as far as we know. And in fact, he was, unsurprisingly in attendance. And he did inform the President that, no, he's not pitching and he has no desire or capacity to. But putting Aside many of the things the President says whose truth or lack thereof can be verified, we don't know for a fact that this particular assertion is false. Here's what he said about Shohei Ohtani. This was before the actual meeting in anticipation of the visit.

[Meg Rowley]

I'll meet a man who's just about the best pitcher in baseball and just about the best hitter in baseball and just about the best fielder in the outfield in baseball.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Now, it's that last part in particular that I want to draw your attention to. And again, I've. I've been in court all week and, and so I'm, you know, really scrutinizing every statement for truth or falsehood and evaluating the evidence and all the rest of it. And, you know, I would allow. I would not object to saying he's just about the best pitcher and just about the best hitter. Sure, close enough, right. I wouldn't say that he is the best pitcher or the best hitter, best player, I would certainly accept. But sure, we'll stipulate to that part. Just about the best fielder in the outfield in baseball. Now, what are the odds that that is true? Because we can't quite disprove it. Right? Because it's. It's certainly false in the sense that he has not played outfield aside from a few stray innings back when he was with the Angels and early in his professional career in Japan. So he has not been the best fielder in terms of actual in game demonstrated value that we can conclusively. But is there some possibility that were he to apply himself, and maybe not in his current state with his bum knee, but let's say at peak physical prowess, that Shohei Ohtani might be capable of being the best fielder in the outfield in baseball?

[Peter Armstrong]

No, no, I'm sorry, like, I, I don't want to blame you for sundowning Mad Men, but like, Peter Armstrong exists. What. What are we doing? What are you talking about? What are you. What are you. What are you. What are you doing, Ben? You know. Yeah, and, and, and you. And maybe. Maybe PCA isn't your, Your flavor. I bring up a cup because of some of our future conversation in this episode. But yes, Satan's right there, you know, like, that's the other one that would come immediately to mind. So. No, and, and I don't say that to, to slight Ohtani. He's so big is the other thing, you know, he's out of practice and the muscle memory, it does atrophy. You would think after a while, you

[Ben Lindbergh]

know, it's just like he has preternatural talent. But there's something to be said for getting reps out there, for being able to project the flight of the ball, all the rest of it.

[Peter Armstrong]

And like, I know that he was at times in his earlier big league career like a very effective base runner. But like, we would always remark upon the fact that like he was surprising legal given his size. You know, he's like 4 inches taller than PCA. I think I want like a, I think that that's like the ideal height to be a center fielder is like PCA site because you're not like so short that it becomes a problem where you're like, I have to scale this wall all the time. But you're like, you can be nimble, you know, closer to balletic than hulking. And to be clear, there are guys

[Ben Lindbergh]

who have a, can be both, but

[Peter Armstrong]

a bigger build than, than like PCA does and still be your effective center fielders. But I just think you want to be a little like, you want to be a little zippy, little zippy guy out there. And he's not little. He's six. He's six foot, but like, you know, zippy. Say, don't zippy.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. And, and Ohtani sprint speed is, is in the 56th percentile this year. Not that sprint speed is perfectly correlated with defensive value, but it's down. And it's probably down in large part because he's taken it easy.

[Peter Armstrong]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But so if he were to apply himself, it becomes a question of could he enter the outfield today and be the best fielder in the outfield in baseball? Almost certainly not. If he had applied himself from the start to that, then possibility, I wouldn't doubt him.

[Peter Armstrong]

Right, A possibility. But don't you put that guy in a corner anyway, you pro.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, he certainly has the arm. Right. He would have one of the best arms, if not the best arm in baseball. And who one would think rangy and, and speedy if he's dedicating himself solely to that and he is trained.

[Peter Armstrong]

I mean that might be two rose colored glasses.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That might be what's happening here. But I just think the athletic potential of Shohei Ohtani, I would not doubt his ability to be among the best outfielders in baseball if that was something that he had been doing regularly. I'm sure that's what President Trump was saying.

[Peter Armstrong]

I'm sure.

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Peter Armstrong]

It is interesting to me. Again, like, what benefit is there to try to understand the mind of that man? But is that like weird? Surprisingly good staff work you know, because like the, the odds, I know that he likes to pretend he's a ball nowhere. And then I was like, what is a red card? Did he just like land on the fact that Ohtani used to play the field in the outfield on accident? Is he just like alighting on one of the potential positions and picking that one, or did somebody like slip him a note and like, you know, die?

[Ben Lindbergh]

I wonder. Yeah, because he played so sparingly, he never actually recorded a put out in the major leagues in mlb. And so probably he was just riffing. Maybe this was a weave, who knows? But yeah, I think this was probably some number of Pinocchios. But it is one of my few regrets about Ohtani, who has more than fulfilled my wildest dreams for his performance and potential in the majors, is that we can't really say to what degree this is true because we just haven't really seen him out there and, and probably we won't. Unless he suffers some serious pitching injury, in which case maybe he will become a full time outfielder. But even then, the man's 32 years old now.

[Peter Armstrong]

Well, yeah, and it's like it, it has to be a particular kind of injury. Right. Because if, if the thing that, that sort of sidelines him, on the one hand you're happy, not that you're happy he's been sidelined, but it's like, oh, a lower body injury. Okay, well, it's not his arm. Right. He doesn't need another Tommy John. His shoulder's not goofed. Like, he doesn't have thoracic outlet syndrome, it's just his knee. But his knee limits him to the alternatives too. Right? Like he has to dh. Presumably they wouldn't want him out in the field with a bum knee. I'm always surprised when the knee thing isn't as positive for other stuff because like, you do have to run the basis he doesn't have that many home runs, you know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. Anyway, anyway, we don't have to give the benefit of the doubt to Donald Trump in, in this situation or any for that matter.

[Peter Armstrong]

Not even one time.

[Ben Lindbergh]

It did stand out to me. You know, he has sort of a tenuous grasp of sports to a greater extent than. Than many commanders in chief. Obviously he played some baseball that's been discussed on effectively wild, but the holes in his knowledge in this realm and others can be exposed quite quickly.

[Peter Armstrong]

I am happy for the people of Buffalo that they didn't have to contend with it, but the alternate history where the NFL just lets him buy the Bills. I mean, it's a better world.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I would throw the Bills to the wolves. It's not like they've one without him. Boy, that was a low blow.

[Peter Armstrong]

I don't know why the Bills need to catch that particular stray in this

[Ben Lindbergh]

instance, but stricken from the record. Withdrawn. I just speak in in lawyers anyway.

[Peter Armstrong]

You're a menace.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Well, we will be dealing with a lot of ethical, weighty moral issues on this episode. And you know, maybe Donald Trump will have the opportunity to meet Pete Carmstrong next year because the Cubs will have won the World Series and he will reevaluate his outfield rankings. And if that were to to pass,

[Peter Armstrong]

I suspect PCA is skipping that trip.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Wonder but our first guest today would be quite pleased, at least by the Cubs winning the World Series part, if not the rest of it, I imagine.

[Peter Armstrong]

But the rest would upset him.

[Ben Lindbergh]

We will be joined a little later on this episode by Jacob Redman. And Jacob Redman is a figure who attained some worldwide or at least national prominence this week. If you saw the video from last weekend at a Cubs game where a fan opted to sit during the national anthem and was slapped by a man behind him who turned out to be a Vietnam veteran who took exception to that fan's decision to sit. Well, it just so happens that the slappy, not the slapper, as far as we know, is an effectively wild listener. And not only an effectively wild listener, but an effectively wild Patreon supporter. And he is breaking his silence on the podcast today. He has not spoken about this publicly. This is an effectively wild exclusive and we will talk to him about his side of the story and what this was like for him and what happened after the clip cuts off because there is much more to the story and what he took away from this experience. That and also just a little bit of Cubbies baseball. So it's a great conversation and I'm very happy that he reached out to us. And again, because I am in trust verify mode this week and all weeks, but this week in particular we wanted to document that Jacob was who he said he was because in the video you can't really see much beyond the back of his head. And he had not been publicly identified and had not self identified prior to this point. So when we got an email from him, I took it at face value. I assumed that this was not some sort of hoax, an imposter. But we did do our best to verify that he was actually who he said he was. He was the the fellow from the video and he was very understanding and accommodating. And he sent us some documentary evidence to try to corroborate that he was who he said he was. And to be clear, making his claim more valid, I think, and more believable was the fact that he didn't invite himself on this episode. He wasn't. Hey, can I come on to talk about this? He just wanted to share a few reflections and then we asked whether he might be interested in talking about it on the show. And he thought about it a bit. He certainly did not seem like someone who was hungry for publicity here. And he also shared with us some other photos of himself at the same location on a different day at Wrigley. And also his seats that he has sat in this area previously. And also sent us a photo of him wearing the outfit on a different day that he was wearing in this video. And finally even sent us some text messages with timestamps. Yes, from the instance after this incident when he was informing his father and his sister of what had happened. So I'm in beyond a reasonable doubt mindset mode this week, but this is not a criminal matter and I think he more than satisfied the preponderance of the evidence standard and probably went well beyond that. So there's no way we can 100% verify, I suppose. And you always have to be careful in the age of deepfakes and what have you. But I do believe that Jacob is who he says he was.

[Peter Armstrong]

Yes. The conversation did not strike me as one from someone who would fib about these things. And yes, he was a good sport about our repeated attempts to verify it was him. Because I did say I was like, we should probably make sure that this is actually the guy before we.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That is the responsible thing to do. Yes. And we are nothing if not responsible.

[Peter Armstrong]

Yeah, we've done our very level do our journalistic duties.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes, we have done our fact finding and fact checking as far as we were able. And after that there will be one more guest and you may have heard of him. His name is Kenny Lofton. So I spoke to Kenny Lofton earlier this week because I was working on an article about the hall of Fame and I know that might be a bit out of character for me because I don't get to exercise about the hall of Fame these days. But I got intrigued months ago actually by Michael Mountain because he hipped me to some little known history and nothing gets me going like little known historical precedent that is related to today. And it turns out that back in the 80s, in 1984, there was a bit of a ballot amnesty where a writer petitioned the BBWA and then the hall of Fame to restore several players, 11 players, to the ballot after they had fallen off, after they had failed to get 5% support in consecutive seasons, as was the rule at the time. And it was a well known writer at the time from St. Louis named Bob Brogue, and he was just quite fond of Ken Boyer and was aggrieved that Ken Boyer was not a Hall of Famer and had fallen off the ballot and managed to get Ken Boyer and many other players back on the ballot. And as it turned out, none of them got in on the second chance either. So it, it was all for not. Yeah, Ron Santo and Dick Allen were among them, but they had to, well, wait until after they passed, unfortunately, decades later, to actually get in by a. By other means. But there was precedent and, and this actually came up in the 90s too. There was some talk of restoring some players to the ballot. And, and so I was wondering whether this precedent might make it possible to do something similar now, because you had this historically anomalous period in the mid 2010s to early 2020s when the ballot was backlogged and there was a log jam and a total traffic jam because all of the PD players who were statistically overqualified but were PD pariahs and thus we're not going to get in. But most of them, with the exception of, say, Rafael Palmero, spent the maximum 10 years on the ballot.

[Peter Armstrong]

They lingered.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. And in so doing, they blocked a lot of other players potentially, or absorbed a lot of votes that could have gone to other candidates that I would consider qualified, or close to qualified at least, certainly whom you would want to have more years on the ballot to maybe build some support the way that other candidates were able to, your Tim Raines and Bert Blevins and Larry Walker's etc. And Kenny Lofton didn't have that chance. He went one and done on the ballot for 2013, which was when Bonds, Clemens and Sosa all joined, joining Mark McGuire and Rafael Palmeira, the holdovers. And so he really just drew the short straw when it came to his timing. And if I were a Hall of Fame voter, if I actively voted for the hall of Fame, obviously I wasn't even eligible to when Kenny Lofton hit the ballot, but he meets my standards, I think, and probably clears it quite handily. And I always just enjoyed him as a player and he has a lot of the hallmarks of a guy who gets overrated just because He's a great all around contributor, but I think were he to hit the ballot today at a less crowded time and with more appreciation for WAR and everything that sells him as a player, I think he would fare much better now. And I've been thinking about this because this weekend is hall of Fame induction weekend and Jeff Kent's going in, but so is Carlos Beltran and so is Andrew Jones. Lofton was teammates once with Kent, he was also teammates with Andrew Jones. And in fact, Lofton was so good with the glove that he actually pushed Andrew Jones to right field immediately before a decade long stretch where Andrew Jones played no other position except center. And Kenny Lofton had a very comparable career to Beltran. And Jones, he slots in right between them on the all time list of center fielders by WAR or jaws. So but for a quirk of timing, Kenny Lofton might have preceded them into the hall because as I said, he has a lot of the hallmarks, no pun intended, and he would be welcoming them this weekend. Instead, he is watching from afar. And this isn't just solely, hey, I think Kenny Lofton should be a Hall of Famer. So let's engineer a scenario. I do think that players like him and there are others, right? Jim Edmonds, right. And I don't know, Johan Santana, Tim Hudson, Joe Nathan, etc. Obviously there are guys with some off the field issues as there have been for so many candidates, some serious. And I think that some of them, putting that aside, would have strong cases and would be better recognized now than they were then and would just have more of a window, more of an opportunity. And because that was such an anomalous stretch, I think that there's precedent and maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to give them that shot as opposed to hoping that maybe they get in someday via the Heiress Committee. Because the thing is, only eight guys are on the Areas Committee ballot and it's every three years, right, for a certain group of candidates. And so Kenny Lofton wasn't on the eight player ballot last year. You know, Bonds was again, Clemens was again, Don Mattingly was for the umpteenth time, Dale Murphy was for the umpteenth time. Lofton can't even get his, his case relitigated, really.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And now he has to wait another couple years even to have a shot to be back on the ballot again. So it's, it's really tough. So I asked him about it and I wrote about this and I talked to a lot of other prominent people in the BBWA and I got a comment from the hall of Fame and all the rest of it, so you can read the lengthy in depth [e-mail] and that includes quotes from Kenny. But I thought the conversation was interesting and I thought people might want to hear it. I emailed him, it took him 12 minutes to write back. So and as you'll hear him say, he doesn't like to initiate this conversation. He doesn't want to campaign for himself or sound bitter about it, but if you ask him about it, he is more than happy to share his thoughts. So I enjoyed talking to him and you will hear a bit of that at the end of the episode. So just a bit of banter before we get to Jacob and then Kenny. We have Jose Caballero's behavior to litigate here and one or two other points. So Caballero has been on trial in the court of public opinion and podcast opinion like Jacob Redmond this week. And this has been going on for a while now with Caballero the Yankee who has a distinctive way of signaling that he is ready for a plate appearance or for a pitch and that he has satisfied the conditions and the rules and regulations pertaining to the pitch clock. And this has come to a head more than once over period of months. There's a bit of gamesmanship going on. This keeps boiling over and it really reached a fever pitch this week because he has been warned before about the behavior that he employs and he's even been punished for it. But now there has been a bit of a crackdown and he objects to the way that this crackdown was implemented. So, I mean, benches cleared. There was an incident with the Pirates where Dennis Santana, who subsequently has been designated for assignment not because of this, I don't think, but that has happened to him. He took exception to this. A lot of players have taken exception to this and Caballero has taken exception to how he has been treated by opposing players, by umpires, by the league, etc. So would you like to lay out what exactly he does here and how the league and umpires responded to this this week?

[Peter Armstrong]

It's interesting that you say Caballero the Yankee. Jose Caballero has been trying to get under the skin of opposing pitchers since he was Jose Caballero, Seattle Mariner. Yes, right. He did this when he was Jose Caballero, Tampa Bay Ray. But folks might recall that the pitch clock is a two way street, right? The pitcher has to deliver a pitch within a certain amount of time. The hitter has to be alert to the pitcher before he can deliver that pitch. That has to happen within a certain amount of time. Jose Caballero is famous for waiting until the very last second, eight seconds before he is alert to the pitcher, meaning he's, like, looking to the pitcher, making eye contact as opposed to looking down at the plate or at his bat or what have you. And that has rankled many a pitcher over the years because they feel like they aren't quite sure when they are able to actually, you know, begin their delivery, basically. And that he's trying to throw them off, which he is. He is. He. He said that everybody knows what he's doing. Everybody knows what he's doing. He knows what he's doing. He. In the aftermath of this incident, both he and Aaron Boone talked about it being his preparation, but, like, he's trying to mess with them. Right?

[Meg Rowley]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He has also framed it in terms of just not wanting the pitcher to dictate the plate occurrence, basically, and to set the pace. He wants to wrestle some control back and have some agency and sort of set the tone, set the pace. But also, clearly, it does get under opposing pitcher's skin, and that seems to be a feature for him.

[Peter Armstrong]

Right. And it is. You know, I think that it's. It's important to note that the part of the rule that was being cited by the umpires in this instance, it wasn't invented out of whole cloth the night that he and Santana got into it. The relevant portion of the rule is conduct by a batters designed to deceive a pitcher into beginning their windup or coming to the supposition in violation of these regulations shall be considered circumvention. So there is an idea that you are meant to sort of, you know, conduct yourself honorably in the box or what have you. And when the umpires were asked about this, Brian Cuddy of the Athletic served as the pool reporter in this instance and asked Adrian Johnson and Quinn Walcott about it. Brendan said, is that circumvention, the part of the rule where it says deceiving the pitcher? And they confirmed, yes. So basically what they said was that. That Caballero has been warned all season and that they, meaning the umpire crew, was instructed not to warn him. They were instructed to violate him. Which, like, as an aside, hey, there

[Ben Lindbergh]

has to be a better way to phrase that.

[Peter Armstrong]

There has to be a better way to put that. That's what it is. It's a violation. This is. This is Adrian Johnson speaking. I'm of two minds about this because on the one hand, I think that what he is trying to do is, is to get under the skin of the opposing pitcher and sort of throw him off balance. And I think that if you read the letter of the law, that what he is doing is probably a violation of it. And there have been warnings that this behavior is sort of brushing up against the boundary of the rule before. So on the one hand, he probably should know that this is behavior that at least is within the realm of what an umpire on any given night might call as a violation. Right, right. And that he might be assessed to strike as a result of that. On the other hand, he does this all the time. He does this constantly. I'm pretty sure that the last time that Jose Caballero was prospect eligible, that him doing this is in his prospect blurb. So this has been sort of a long standing thing. And the reason it seems to have come to a head in this particular instance to have gone from the point of him being warned by the league. And we should get into the fact that like, like he and the Yankees are saying that like he did not receive further mourning after the bench is cleared. Right. They are maintaining that this new focus on enforcement is sort of news to them. So they, they have been sort of up in arms about it since this happened. But he did this. He was assessed a penalty. Dennis Santana took exception to it. And I think that.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Which was partly because of the situation. Santana said he doesn't mind that he does this typically, but he felt like in this situation when the Yankees were up by a few runs. Right. I mean, it was sort of an unwritten rules kind of running up the score, pressing an advantage sort of thing, which it wasn't a blowout or anything.

[Peter Armstrong]

Yeah.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So I think he maybe let himself get a bit more upset by it than he had to be. But yes. And, and you know, then he, I think got a ground ball double play. Like he, he wasn't totally on tilt or anything, but obviously he was upset.

[Peter Armstrong]

And then, you know, there's a conflagration. The bench is clear. And the, you know, I think the relevant quote from Quinn Walcott is it's talking about when he gets in the batter's box, he's not allowed an inordinate amount of time looking down, trying to get the pitcher to cause a violation. There's no other hitter that gets in the box and takes the amount of time that Caballero does while looking down and not making on contact with the pitcher. Obviously it's caused a lot of problems in the past. It's not going to be allowed anymore. Again, like, I think that if you want to make a point of this across the league and you regularly enforce it. And part of, I think Caballero's frustration that he spoke to after the fact was that he is of the opinion that there are plenty of other batters who do this same thing and are not kind of harangued about it, haven't been called for violations and assessed strikes, and that, you know, he is just preparing to face the pitcher. And to your point that he is trying to. In a situation where hitters have very little say in how a given plate appearance proceeds because they don't get to decide what pitch the pitcher is throwing to wrest some control of the situation back from the pitcher and sort of be able to level the playing field a little bit. Now I think that we can have a long conversation about sort of what should we in a society be allowed to expect from enforcement authorities? If there is a rule that is never enforced and then is enforced what we believe to be arbitrarily and is that fair? And is the, is the law as a living, breathing thing that dictates our interactions on a day to day basis? If the way that we all understand each other is different than the rule of the law and it's not regularly enforceable, is it a law at all? That's an interesting philosophical question. Here's what I think. I think he should be allowed to do this because it's fun. It's fun. It's fun that he does this. I think that sports benefit from the presence of a heel when the thing they're doing isn't really a problem. And I don't think this is really a problem. I think it's fine. I think most, most of the time it works out fine for the pitchers. You know how I know that? Do you think that? What do you.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Tell me what you think Jose Caviro's stats.

[Peter Armstrong]

I was just about to say, what do you think Jose Caballero's batting average is? Tell me what you think Jose Caballero's batting average is. It's lower than you think, given how big a stink that the Pirates made about this. He's saying 244. He's saying 240. 44. He's striking out 22% of the time. He's in 91 WRC plus. I think that you, you let this man be. Let him be. Is he being a little bit of a dick? Yeah, that's why it's fun, you know, and and we shouldn't be. We should be pleasant to each other. But, but this, this to me falls within the realm of like, acceptable, like, brinksmanship within the, the hitter pitcher matchup. And that matchup is so heavily tilted in the pitcher's favor the vast majority of the time. Yeah, it's annoying. That's why he's doing it. Let him do it. She'll let him do it. Now, I'll also say this. You don't get to be a little bit. I think that, like, the, the way forward for Caballero is to stop drawing attention to this and like, stop doing it for a little while and then start doing it again. That's the strategy. Because you can't. I understand that he can't say, well, yeah, I'm trying to annoy him. Because if he says that, then the fact that he is kind of circumventing the rule a little bit becomes obvious. So I get why he has to say what he, he's saying. And, and then we being adults can agree that he's lying, you know, or at least being. He's. He's. He's rendering a favorable version of the facts on behalf of his side. Also, I imagine that he has been warned. Like, I, I bet he's been warned a bunch.

[Ben Lindbergh]

He has. Yeah. Yeah. And. Well, I think if the edict actually has gone out that this will now no longer be tolerated, then the ship may have sailed for him and maybe he can't get away with this anymore. I wouldn't have a huge problem with that as long as it's clearly communicated. And that's the thing where he and Boone and the Yankees have a legitimate gripe here. If MLB did just decide that they are going to handle this differently without informing everyone ahead of time, and that's what the umpire suggested, at least I

[Peter Armstrong]

think that's what the, the umps seem to suggest.

[Ben Lindbergh]

MLB declined to comment when the Athletic asked about that specifically. But if, if it's the case that they did not actually inform the Yankees that something had changed about the enforcement, then I certainly understand Caballero being upset about having that just sort of sprung on him in the middle of a game, in the middle of a season now, I'm not convinced that he is violating any rule as written. I think, you know, we're, we're at least receptive to pedantry and a little rules lawyering going on here. And so on some level, I appreciate it. This is the sort of thing where if there's an afterlife, Eddie Stanky is, is Smiling down or up from wherever he is on this kind of behavior. Well, it depends. Probably some of his opponents would have said up, not down. But that's the thing. These guys get on people's nerves, at least opposing players and fans nerves. And I've seen some people suggest that Jose Caballero is not good enough to be exhibiting this sort of behavior.

[Peter Armstrong]

That's exactly why he should do it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That's right. If he were so good, then I would say you don't need this little.

[Peter Armstrong]

You don't need it.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Possible edge. But no, Jose Caballero is exactly the sort of person who should be exploiting such an edge, if in fact it actually is, which, who the heck knows? I guess we'll find out if they make him stop doing this, whether he's any worse because his whole major league career has been contained in the pitch clock era. So we don't really have a before and after.

[Meg Rowley]

Right.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But maybe we will. But. But as written, I think that he is conforming to the expectation if it's. If it's written somewhat ambiguously. I mean, if he just has to be alert to the pitcher with eight seconds and that's what he's doing, and that does seem to be what he's doing now, maybe it violates the. The spirit of the law more perhaps. And if there is this thing about deception and trying to convince the pitcher to do something and not come set or whatever, I don't even. Is it that so much as it is. I don't know. He's obviously trying to disrupt their rhythm somewhat. But would it qualify as deception? That's sort of subjective and open to interpretation. I think he's really fulfilling what he has to do. And if your rule is written ambiguously, then that's kind of on you to let him get away with what would be considered an annoying behavior. I don't know that he's necessarily violating that.

[Peter Armstrong]

I also think, and this isn't. This argument would not stand up in court. You know me on the jury if I made this argument as a 1L. I'm getting, I'm getting the business from the professor up front. But, you know, and, and maybe this suggests that as a strategy, it's less effective than I'm giving it credit for necessarily. But I struggle to believe that any pitcher is surprised by this behavior at this point. This is what he does.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. If you're surprised, then you've outed yourself as someone who is not reading the scouting report.

[Peter Armstrong]

Right. And so can one really be undone by Jose Caballero at this point, I suggest not. I also think that this is a testament and you know, the Buffalo Bills caught astray and now Anthony Volpe is going to the degree be the first time for him, the degree of like, defense that has been mustered on Jose Caballero's behalf. And I don't think that Aaron Boone, like, has it in for Anthony Volpe, certainly not the way the Yankees fans do. You guys still need to chill out about that guy. Good God, you are intense about him. But I think that Jose Caballero, in part because we like to root for heels when they're on our team and also because he was seen as this band aid. You know, it's like Volpe is a disaster and we have to send for

[Ben Lindbergh]

the grace of Cappy. Right?

[Peter Armstrong]

Exactly. And so I think that he has come to occupy an interesting sort of folk hero position in both the fan base and to some extent the organization. And so they are like, oh, we're gonna. Because I seem to recall when, when Cabbie wasn't a Yankee and I, I think that this was last. Did he get traded last year?

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. And he was very good for the Yankees after they acquired him, somewhat surprisingly so while Volpe was playing hurt and playing poorly.

[Peter Armstrong]

But I think that when he was still a Tampa Bay Ray, that he was pissing off Boone to, to no end.

[Meg Rowley]

He.

[Peter Armstrong]

He couldn't, you know, because again, we love heel when they're on our team. We all have, we all have that guy. I root for a Seattle Seahawks defense. I know what it means to have people who annoy others but who you love.

[Ben Lindbergh]

And he was getting the Blue Jays goats not long ago too.

[Peter Armstrong]

Yes.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yeah. So this is, it's the perfect baseball controversy because it's so deeply silly. I mean, it's very unlikely that he's really deriving any significant advantage from this. And so it's much ado about barely anything.

[Peter Armstrong]

Exactly. No one's getting hurt. He's not throwing at a guy. He's not insulting anybody's mother. He's. He's just being a little bit of an annoying heel. He is, he is a Lima bean sized pebble in. Now you could just say, isn't that just pebble size? And I'm saying, let me have my. Have my bits.

[Ben Lindbergh]

You're getting into loose bodies territory now.

[Peter Armstrong]

Yeah, he is a pebble in the shoe. And look, you got to get those pebbles out because it's hard to walk with them in there. You. You really do get annoyed by them. But it's great. I Love it. I love how indignant everyone is. Yankees fans are all worked up. They're all.

[Ben Lindbergh]

They're in a laboon was, too. Not that it takes much to work

[Peter Armstrong]

up, I was gonna say.

[Ben Lindbergh]

So he said boys will be boys, like after the heat of the moment, as if he wasn't being one of the boys also. And that he wasn't as angry as anyone. Of course he's standing up for his player, but I think it was.

[Peter Armstrong]

Sure.

[Ben Lindbergh]

But like, it was sincere to a great degree too, so.

[Peter Armstrong]

That's so funny. Boys will be boys. I know.

[Ben Lindbergh]

I hate to break it to Yankees fans, but. But Volpe has been better than Caballero this season, specifically.

[Peter Armstrong]

This is why I'm telling people to, like, you know, check yourself before you wreck yourself. Yeah, I have great affection for Jose Caballero. Again, I got to be on the. The good end of this. And it's so funny because if you had asked me, I have his player page up now. And if you had asked me What Jose Caballero's WRC plus for the Mariners was in 2023, I would have been like 115. 99. 99. He's perfect. He is the perfect little heel player. And, and he's 5 9, so he's literally a little heel. He's a Lima bean sized heel of a player. I love him.

[Ben Lindbergh]

Yes. And. And look, I wouldn't really resent it if they do police this more strictly and say you can't do anymore, because I do want players if they can and find some sort of loophole and exploit it, more power to them. But if it goes beyond that, to the point where, look, the. The pitch clock is meant to shorten games and this is inadvertently lengthening them because he's pissing people off everywhere he goes. And there are long delays as everyone figures out what the rules are and how to enforce it. And he complains and they complain and you have a whole back and forth. So in the best interest of baseball, maybe it is actually more valuable from a utilitarian perspective to speed the game along than to allow free expression to Jose Caballero in this instance. But I do like when players act as individuals and when we don't enforce conformity. And so I like when they have their distinctive ticks and everything. But maybe it gets to the point where this is actually not helping improve the spectator experience for anyone. This is just getting on everyone's nerves and you got to get over yourself with this ticky, tacky delay.

[Peter Armstrong]

I guess that's. I guess that's true. But I will also say that, and this is the place where I think that Cabbie is like, really overstating things. I don't see very many other players doing what he's doing. And so it's not like there's like a rash of pitch clock shenanigans that people are engaged in. And as just, you know, I. Yeah,

[Ben Lindbergh]

that could strengthen the argument for preventing it, that it's just one guy, so is this worth all the trouble? Or it could, it could bolster the argument for not making a fuss and doing anything about it, because who cares? Ultimately, it's. It's Jose Caballero and. And it, it's not spreading.

[Peter Armstrong]

Right. It feels like the hitter equivalent of having like a really funky windup. And I understand sometimes the windups, they're too funky and you gotta, you gotta do something about those funky lineups. I think my fever's back.

[Ben Lindbergh]

That'll do it. For the free preview of today's Effectively Wild, thank you for listening. If you'd like to listen on and hear whatever wisdom and wit await, we would love to have you. You can visit patreon.com effectivelywild to access the rest of this episode and plenty of other exclusive content. Weekly subscriber only Episodes episodes Monthly bonus shows our Discord group our live streams. Either way, we will be back with another episode soon, which will appear in full on this feed. Until then, we wish you well and thank you for your support of Effectively Wild, whatever form it takes.