Elon Musk left Washington and his “Department of Government Efficiency” initiative with a highly controversial and, many would say, disappointing track record. For followers of President Donald Trump and the idea of slashing what he’s claimed is out-of-control government spending, Musk’s self-reported $199 billion in savings (which cannot be independently confirmed) is a far cry from the $2 trillion the Tesla CEO promised. As far as Musk’s detractors are concerned, his cuts—often executed in haphazard fashion as his twenty-something minions unceremoniously fired long-serving federal employees—have not only disrupted how the government operates on a fundamental level, but also triggered dramatic downstream consequences, many irreversible, both domestically and across the globe.

In this episode of Elon, Inc., Max Chafkin sits down with Wired magazine senior writer Makena Kelly to discuss the legacy Musk leaves behind in Washington. How do you make sense of the hundreds of thousands or people estimated to have already died in Africa and elsewhere because of Musk’s gleeful dismantling of USAID? Or how the supposed savings of “DOGE” compare to the $3.1 trillion recently tacked on to America’s $37 trillion national debt by Trump’s “Big Beautiful Bill”? And what are the consequences for the country now that Musk has upended the lives and morale of those federal workers who remain, many of whom still work under the shadow of more firings?

For Kelly, Musk’s lasting legacy will be one of cultural shakeup: Many of the people he and Trump have placed in positions of power say they think the federal government should be run more like a tech startup than a traditional bureaucracy. And even though he’s physically absent, they still don’t want to fall out of favor with the world’s richest man. Finally, Kelly outlines what she says we can expect from “DOGE 2.0.”

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