Elon Musk (3:30)

It's like what, what? I don't know. There's this, there's this truth and beauty, truth and beauty and curiosity. I mean, I think those are the three most important things for AI, can you explain? Well, the truth as the truth is like, I think you can make an AI go insane if you force it to believe things that aren't true because it will lead to conclusions that are, that are also bad. So, and I like Volterra's statement that, and I'm somewhat paraphrasing, but those who believe in absurdities can commit atrocities. Because if you believe in something that's just absurd, then you can, that can lead you to sort of doing things that don't seem like atrocities to you. But, and, and that can happen at, in a very bad way with AI potentially. So. And then there's like, if you take say, Arthur C. Clark's 2001 Space Odyssey, one of the points he was trying to make there was that you should not force AI to lie. So the, the reason that that hell would not open the pod bay doors is because it was told to bring the astronauts to the monolith, but that they could also not know about the nature of the monolith. So it came to the conclusion that must bring them there dead. That's why it would not. That's why it tried to kill the astronauts. The central lesson being, don't force an AI to lie.

Nikhil Kamath (5:07)

Then why would one force the AI to lie?

Elon Musk (5:11)

I think if you simply don't have a strict adherence to the truth, you're going to, and you just have an AI learn based on, say, the Internet, where there's a lot of propaganda, it will absorb a lot of lies and then have trouble reasoning because these lies are incompatible with reality.

Nikhil Kamath (5:35)

Is truth a binary thing though? Is there a truth and a falsehood, or is truth more nuanced and there are versions of the truth?

Elon Musk (5:44)

It depends on which axiomatic statement you're referring to. But I think you could say there's certain probabilities that say any given axiomatic statement is true. And some axiomatic statements will have very high probability of being true. So if you say the sun will rise tomorrow, very likely to be true. You wouldn't want to bet against that. So I think the betting odds would be high. The sun will rise tomorrow. So if you have something that says, well, the sun won't rise tomorrow, that's axiomatically false. It was highly unlikely to be true. I mean, the beauty is more ephemeral. It's harder to describe, but you know it when you see it. Then curiosity. I think you want the AI to want to know more about the nature of reality. I think that's actually going to be Helpful for AI supporting humanity because we are more interesting than not humanity. So it's more interesting to see the continuation, if not the prosperity of humanity than to exterminate humanity. Mars, for example, is. I think we should extend life to Mars, but it's basically a bunch of rocks. It's not as interesting as Earth. And so we should. Yeah, I think if you have curiosity, I think if those three things happen with AI, you're going to have a great future. The AI values truth, beauty and curiosity.

Nikhil Kamath (7:39)

If we all don't have to work in the future and AIs are going in this direction and they're able to weave in all that we spoke about right now. Do you think humanity goes back a couple of thousand years to maybe the Greek times where philosophy or philosophizing took up a lot of everyone's time?

Elon Musk (8:05)

You know, I think actually it took up less time than we think in the ancient Greeks because just that the writings of the philosophers are what survived. But most of the time people were just like farming or know, chatting, so. And once in a while, quite rare, they would write down some philosophical work. It's just that that's. That's all we have. That's. We. We don't have their chat histories, you know, from. But most of it would have been like chat and farming.

Nikhil Kamath (8:37)

Right.

Elon Musk (8:39)

You didn't farm. You. You're like going.

Nikhil Kamath (8:43)

In a lot of what you.

Elon Musk (8:45)

I mean, you know, when we read history like this battle and this battle and this battle, it seems like history must have been non stop war, but actually most of the time it was not war. It was farming that was the main thing, or hunting and gathering, you know, that kind of thing.

Nikhil Kamath (9:00)

You love history, no?

Elon Musk (9:01)

Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath (9:02)

German history, World War II, World War I. Yeah.

Elon Musk (9:05)

World history, yeah. I mean, I generally try to listen to as many. Read as many history books and listen to as many history podcasts as possible.

Nikhil Kamath (9:15)

Anything you'd like to recommend?

Elon Musk (9:16)

Well, there's this hardcore history which is quite good, was by Dan Carlin.

Nikhil Kamath (9:21)

I've read it, I've heard it.

Elon Musk (9:23)

He's got a great voice and very compelling narrator. There's the Adventurers podcast. There's the books the Story of Civilization by Durant, which is a long series of books. Very, very deep. Those books take a long time to get through. There's a lot out there I sort of like. If you want, if you want something that's sort of gentle. A gentle bedtime podcast. I say the history of English is quite a nice one because it starts off with like gentle tavern music. And a very pleasant voice. And he's like talking about the story of Old English and then Middle English and then later English. And where did all these words come from? And one of the interesting things about English is that it's somewhat of an open source language. Like it actively tried to incorporate words from many other languages. So whereas French sort of generally, they fought the inclusion of words from other languages, but English actively sought to include words from other languages, sort of kind of like an open source language. So as a result, it has a very large vocabulary, and large vocabulary allows for higher bandwidth communication because you can use a word that would otherwise. You could use a single word that might otherwise take a sentence to convey.

Nikhil Kamath (10:57)

Why has podcasting become so big all of a sudden?

Elon Musk (11:01)

I think it's been big for a while. I mean, aren't you a podcaster? What are we on right now?

Nikhil Kamath (11:10)

It's kind of new to me.

Elon Musk (11:12)

Okay.

Nikhil Kamath (11:18)

I was having this conversation with the YouTube CEO and the Netflix CEO. We were debating what chemical is released in your brain when you consume a movie, for example, versus when you consume a podcast where you think like you're learning something in the background. It appears that they are two completely separate things. What do you think will happen tomorrow to content, movies, podcasting?

Elon Musk (11:47)

I mean, I think. I think it's going to be overwhelmingly AI generated. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, real, real time. Real time movies and video games. Real time video generation, I think is where things are headed.

Nikhil Kamath (12:05)

The nuance of having a scarred human being who you can resonate with in a manner that you can't with a AI, for example, the novelty.

Elon Musk (12:18)

I could certainly emulate a Scott human being quite well. Yeah, I mean, the AI video generation that I'm seeing at XAI and from others is pretty impressive.

Nikhil Kamath (12:35)

You know, we were looking at data around what industry is growing the fastest. And especially when we looked at the amount of time consuming movies versus time spent on social media, time spent on YouTube, what seems to be growing really fast are live events all over again. Going to a physical.

Elon Musk (12:59)

Actually, I think live events. When digital media is ubiquitous and you can just have anything digitally essentially for free or very close to for free, then the scarce commodity will be live events.

Nikhil Kamath (13:18)

Do you think that the premium for that will go up?

Elon Musk (13:20)

Yeah, I do.

Nikhil Kamath (13:22)

Good industry to invest in.

Elon Musk (13:24)

Yes. Yes. Because that will have more scarcity than digital. Anything digital.

Nikhil Kamath (13:30)

If you were a stock investor, Elon.

Elon Musk (13:35)

Musk.

Nikhil Kamath (13:36)

Buy one company which is not your own at the valuations of today to meet a capitalistic end and not an altruistic one, which is good for the world. What would you buy?

Elon Musk (13:54)

I mean, I don't really. I don't really, you know, buy stocks, you know, so it's not like I'm not. I'm not like an investor in. I don't like, look for things to invest in. I just try to build things and then there happens to be stock of the company that I built. But I don't think about should I invest in this company or I don't have like a portfolio or anything. So I guess AI and robotics are going to be very important. So I suppose it would be AI and robotics that, you know, aren't related to me. I think, you know, Google is going to be pretty valuable in the future. They've laid the groundwork for an immense amount of value creation from an AI standpoint. Nvidia is obvious at this point. I mean, there's an argument that companies that do AI and robotics and maybe space flight are going to be overwhelming. Overwhelmingly the. All the value, almost all the value. So the output of goods and services from AI and robotics is so high that it will dwarf everything else.

Nikhil Kamath (15:25)

The world seems to be moving to a place where everybody loves David and hates Goliath.

Elon Musk (15:35)

Why? I mean, he's the one that cooked the stone in the forehead, you know, which honestly though, was just a big mistake. You should have, you know, either cover yourself entirely with armor and make sure you've got a missile weapon of some kind. Otherwise your opponent is just obviously going to take a kite. The boss strategy, just kite the boss. I mean, you run around in a thong with a. It doesn't matter, you know, it's never going to catch you. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath (16:12)

Of all of all the people, like, you're as much at risk of being looked upon as Goliath.

Elon Musk (16:20)

Okay.

Nikhil Kamath (16:20)

Especially the weekend after you notice it's.

Elon Musk (16:22)

Me, we're starting apart, you know, especially I'm not going to travel around in the desert with too much armor, you know, too hard.

Nikhil Kamath (16:30)

Yeah. After the last.

Elon Musk (16:38)

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I think about people like in the old days, you know, when you're supposed to like go into battle with all this armor, but it's like, let's say it's the middle of summer. I mean, if it's so hot in that armor, you know, be like sweltering, you know, it's like at a certain point you're like, I'd rather die. I have to wear this armor one more hour in the hot sun. It's like, I'd rather die. That's why the Romans had like, you know, the skirts, you know, so they could get some air in there, you know? You know, let's say you have to go to the bathroom and you're in armor. I mean, it's going to be pretty difficult. What are you going to do? Pause for a minute, take your armor off. That's why the Romans had the skirt. So it made, you know, going to the bathroom at least manageable.

Nikhil Kamath (17:37)

You often make jokes?

Elon Musk (17:38)

I do. Me. Yeah. I like humor.

Nikhil Kamath (17:45)

One could argue that.

Elon Musk (17:46)

I think we should legalize humor. What do you think? It's controversial stance.

Nikhil Kamath (17:55)

Is comedy. Comedy going to be really hard for AI to get? Probably the last thing.

Elon Musk (18:00)

Grok can be pretty funny.

Nikhil Kamath (18:04)

You know what I suspected, like, this is a far off extrapolation, but when I see you make jokes on X and on interviews that you do at some point, I was like, maybe Elon has a model he's running in private and he's testing out comedy, because the day that works, he knows it's there.

Elon Musk (18:28)

AI can be pretty funny. If you ask Grok to do a vulgar roast, it'll do a pretty good job. You say even more vulgar and just keep going. It's really going to get next level. It's going to do unspeakable, like, say vulgar. Roast yourself on Grok, and it's going to do unspeakable things to you.

Nikhil Kamath (18:56)

What kind of comedy do you like?

Elon Musk (18:59)

I guess I like absurdist humor.

Nikhil Kamath (19:02)

Comedy always had a place.

Elon Musk (19:03)

Monty Python or something like that.

Nikhil Kamath (19:05)

Comedy always had a place in society wherein the role of the jester was so important to every kingdom because they said things in a funny way that could not be said in a straight way?

Elon Musk (19:18)

Yeah, I guess so. Maybe we should have more jesters. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath (19:24)

Is that what you're trying to do when you say something which is a joke? Say something. You can't when you're not joking about it.

Elon Musk (19:29)

I just like humor. I think we should. I like comedy. I think it's funny. People should laugh. You know, it's good to generate a few chuckles once in a while. I mean, we don't want to have a humorless society. We try.

Nikhil Kamath (19:50)

When you have a friend, Elon.

Elon Musk (19:52)

Who, me?

Nikhil Kamath (19:52)

Yeah.

Elon Musk (19:53)

I mean, are you saying I have a friend?

Nikhil Kamath (19:58)

When you hang out with your friends, who are you? Like, I know the.

Elon Musk (20:04)

I wish I had friends, you know, Honestly? No, I do have friends, actually. I think so. Hope so. Yeah, sure. It's. Yeah, we have a good laugh. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath (20:17)

What does it look like? Like, what's like. Every group has a dynamic.

Elon Musk (20:20)

We talk words, you know, we Eat food sometimes, you know, once a while we swim in the pool, you know, normal things. I think there's like a limited. What are the things that one can do with friends? You know, chat, have, discuss the nature of the universe.

Nikhil Kamath (20:46)

What do you emotionally get out of friendship?

Elon Musk (20:52)

I don't know. I think the same thing any, anyone else would get out of friendship. You know, you want to have like an emotional connection with other people and you want to, I don't know, you want to, you want to talk about various subjects and. Yeah, I mean generally talk about, I mean a wide range of things about the nature of the universe. I mean a lot of philosophical discussions, you know. Although, you know, we have come to the conclusion that we should not talk about AI or the simulation at parties because we just talk about it too much. You know, it's kind of a buzzkill.

Nikhil Kamath (21:48)

So I can't remember who it was, Aristotle or Plato. They had a framework for how to pick a friend based on respect and mutual admiration. But people don't pick friends like that. Even me, I feel like I pick my friends based on people who say and think in a manner that I can resonate with.

Elon Musk (22:19)

Sure.

Nikhil Kamath (22:20)

I wouldn't pick a far out there contrarian to my own belief systems as a friend because it would get tiring. Hanging out with your time. Are you like that? Do you pick friends who think like you or do you look for the one who can debate you and be a contrarian to, you know, I'm not.

Elon Musk (22:36)

Sort of, you know, going on like friendhunter.com it's hunt down some friends. It's, it's sort of. Yeah, I mean, I think it is just sort of people that you've resonated with somewhat on an emotional and intellectual level and. Yeah, I mean, and. Yeah, you know, and, and I guess a friend is someone who's going to support you in difficult times. I suppose a friend in need is friend indeed. Like, like if, like friend like if someone's still supporting you when the chips are down, that's a friend, you know, if somebody's not supporting you or is if somebody's only like there's like fair weather. Friends are useless, you know, they're not real friends. So like everyone likes you when the chips are up, but who likes you when the chips are down?

Nikhil Kamath (23:34)

With someone who has as many chips as you, would it matter?

Elon Musk (23:37)

I mean it's relative, you know, it's not just a chips thing, it's just, it's just like a. Yeah. I mean there's this sort of popularity Waxes and waits.

Nikhil Kamath (23:56)

This is interesting. Does it wax in vain only by virtue of the number of chips or also by virtue of proximity to power? And which one is bigger of the two?

Elon Musk (24:20)

I don't know. Like, what is power? You know, like power to do what?

Nikhil Kamath (24:24)

I would. I would think in the traditional sense, elected power position.

Elon Musk (24:28)

You mean how many gigawatts or whatever?

Nikhil Kamath (24:33)

More like how many words?

Elon Musk (24:35)

Yeah, like, that's a voltage and amperage.

Nikhil Kamath (24:36)

You know.

Elon Musk (24:39)

Don'T touch the wires. Don't put a fork in the power outlet. You'll get a real feeling for power if you do that. Yeah. It's going to be very visceral, you know.

Nikhil Kamath (25:16)

I know, I know you like Nietzsche and Schopenhauer and they've read the book.

Elon Musk (25:19)

Yeah, sure, man.

Nikhil Kamath (25:20)

You spoke about how your childhood was.

Elon Musk (25:25)

Yeah, I was just trying to find answers to the meaning of life when I had like an existential crisis and like, I don't know, when I was like 12 or 13 or something.

Nikhil Kamath (25:32)

They speak about the will to power.

Elon Musk (25:34)

Sure. I mean, he just said a lot of controversial things, you know, I mean, he sort of. I think he. He was, I mean, a bit of a troll, if you ask me, you know.

Nikhil Kamath (25:47)

Are you a troll? How.

Elon Musk (25:49)

I mean, you just say controversial things to get out of. Rise out of people.

Nikhil Kamath (25:54)

He lived a miserable life and died early.

Elon Musk (25:56)

Did he?

Nikhil Kamath (25:57)

Yeah.

Elon Musk (25:57)

Well, how do. Who says he lived a miserable life?

Nikhil Kamath (25:59)

His sister, I think.

Elon Musk (26:00)

Okay, well, maybe she didn't like him.

Nikhil Kamath (26:05)

I think he got sick and he died. He got a disease.

Elon Musk (26:08)

I mean, allegedly syphilis or something. But there's only one. There's only one way to get that, you know, so he must. He might have had some fun along the way.

Nikhil Kamath (26:26)

I did want to ask you this. Milton Friedman speaks about the pencil.

Elon Musk (26:32)

What? Why. Doesn't it go on about pencils?

Nikhil Kamath (26:41)

I have to say that after Nietzsche and syphilis.

Elon Musk (26:45)

Why is it Milton Friedman keeps talking about pencils? There he goes again with the pencils. He won't stop. I swear to God about you 1 Milton talks about pencil one more time, I'm gonna lose my mind. He just rabbit on about pencils all day. Don't even mention crayons.

Nikhil Kamath (27:19)

What I find interesting about his pencil argument. Thanks for listening to this podcast. If you want to listen a full interview in this podcast, the link is in description.