Latest: Elon Musk DOGE Update!!!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Elon Musk DOGE Update!!!
Host: Astronaut Man
Release Date: February 10, 2025

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Introduction

In the latest episode of "Elon Musk Thinking", host Astronaut Man delves into a dynamic discussion centered around the DOGE Initiative, a significant policy movement aimed at restructuring government operations. Featuring prominent voices such as Senator Joni Ernst, Senator Mike Lee, entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy, and former President Donald Trump, the episode provides an in-depth exploration of government reform, fiscal responsibility, and the role of deregulation in fostering economic growth.

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1. The Concept of DOGE and Government Reform

The episode kicks off with Vivek Ramaswamy introducing the concept of a "fourth branch of government," highlighting the extensive unelected bureaucracy that has grown beyond constitutional bounds.

• Vivek Ramaswamy [01:30]: “Is there actually a fourth branch of government?”

Senator Mike Lee elaborates on this, emphasizing the need for a government that is truly responsive to the people, rather than one dominated by an unaccountable bureaucracy.

• Mike Lee [01:34]: “If you don’t have rule of the people, you have rule of the bureaucracy. And this is obviously wrong, it is unconstitutional.”

Senator Joni Ernst echoes this sentiment, discussing her long-term efforts to address these issues within Congress.

• Joni Ernst [03:03]: “There are not enough of us that have the oversight capacity to tackle these abuses effectively.”

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2. Addressing Fraud and Waste in Government Spending

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the rampant fraud and misuse of taxpayer dollars within federal agencies, particularly USAID.

• Joni Ernst [07:10]: “NICRA rates were upwards towards anywhere from 50 to 60%. And that doesn't include the cost for subcontractors…”

Mike Lee provides concrete examples of financial mismanagement, including the misuse of funds intended for COVID relief.

• Mike Lee [04:31]: “Our US Tax dollars were used effectively to in the end, kill Americans, which is insane.”

The conversation details the obstruction faced while attempting to investigate these financial irregularities, leading to a joint congressional investigation.

• Joni Ernst [06:41]: “After about six more months of negotiations, then my staff was finally allowed to access very limited data.”

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3. The Shutdown of USAID and Its Implications

The hosts discuss the decision to shut down USAID, citing systemic corruption and inefficiency.

• Mike Lee [08:33]: “USAID is a ball of worms. There is no apple. And when there is no apple, you've just got to basically get rid of the whole thing.”

Vivek Ramaswamy supports this move, advocating for deletion as a solution to entrenched bureaucratic problems.

• Vivek Ramaswamy [08:54]: “Deletion is the only answer that's left.”

Donald Trump adds historical context, comparing the current situation to past governmental upheavals and emphasizing the need to return to the foundational purposes of the U.S. government.

• Donald Trump [25:33]: “If those laws, which they are laws, those will put you in prison, those will shut down your business, those will ruin your life if you display them.”

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4. Deregulation and Federalism as Solutions

The panel strongly advocates for deregulation and increased federalism to restore governmental efficiency and individual freedoms.

• Mike Lee [27:16]: “And if we don’t address federal regulation, then people can choose to move from one state to another and still remain in America.”

• Vivek Ramaswamy [28:45]: “Federalism is the answer. Just push it to the states.”

Senator Joni Ernst highlights the overwhelming number of regulations that stifle entrepreneurial efforts and economic growth.

• Joni Ernst [29:16]: “We’ve got to start somewhere on the regulatory front.”

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5. Fiscal Responsibility and Deficit Reduction

A critical discussion revolves around the national deficit, government spending, and strategies for deficit reduction through the DOGE Initiative.

• Vivek Ramaswamy [17:42]: “Every dollar saved... will have a 2 to 1 savings because that means that the interest rate that lenders to the US Government charge will go down.”

Mike Lee underscores the direct correlation between government spending and inflation, advocating for balanced budgets to stabilize the economy.

• Mike Lee [18:09]: “Government spending that creates inflation. So when you see prices go up at the grocery store, it's because the government spent more money than it brought in.”

Senator Joni Ernst emphasizes the impact on constituents, highlighting personal debt burdens and the necessity for prudent fiscal policies.

• Joni Ernst [23:23]: “Every one of my constituents owes $67,000 to our national. That's outrageous.”

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6. Strategies and Legislative Actions: The REINS Act and Beyond

The panel discusses legislative measures like the REINS Act, aimed at reclaiming lawmaking power for Congress and ensuring greater accountability.

• Vivek Ramaswamy [15:35]: “We're going to make the REINS Act and other mechanisms to say lawmaking power comes back to Congress.”

Mike Lee and Donald Trump advocate for a comprehensive deregulation strategy, including the removal of existing regulations and preventing the introduction of new ones without congressional approval.

• Mike Lee [27:31]: “In addition to that executive order, which I certainly applaud, I think we need to go and do wholesale removal of regulations.”

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7. Building Momentum and Public Support

The hosts stress the importance of public support in driving these reforms, acknowledging potential opposition from entrenched interests and fraudsters.

• Mike Lee [40:21]: “I am confident it can be done and we'll do everything in our power to make it happen.”

Vivek Ramaswamy calls for collective action, urging listeners to support the DOGE Initiative in any capacity possible.

• Vivek Ramaswamy [44:39]: “Push it to the states and we'll take care of it there.”

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8. Conclusion and Call to Action

As the episode draws to a close, Senator Joni Ernst highlights the creation of the Senate DOGE Caucus, aimed at uniting like-minded legislators to pursue these ambitious reforms.

• Joni Ernst [45:14]: “I've founded the Senate DOGE Caucus... we've got some great co-chairs over in the House as well.”

Mike Lee encourages listeners to stay engaged and support the initiative, promising ongoing updates and transparency.

• Mike Lee [44:47]: “We're going to be doing this every week... keep the people informed and of the progress.”

Donald Trump reiterates the mission to restore the government's foundational purposes, emphasizing the transformative potential of the DOGE Initiative.

• Donald Trump [35:56]: “Returning to our founding document. That's what we want.”

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Notable Quotes

• Mike Lee [01:34]: “If you don’t have rule of the people, you have rule of the bureaucracy. And this is obviously wrong, it is unconstitutional.”

• Joni Ernst [07:10]: “NICRA rates were upwards towards anywhere from 50 to 60%. And that doesn't include the cost for subcontractors…”

• Donald Trump [25:33]: “If those laws, which they are laws, those will put you in prison, those will shut down your business, those will ruin your life if you display them.”

• Vivek Ramaswamy [17:42]: “Every dollar saved... will have a 2 to 1 savings because that means that the interest rate that lenders to the US Government charge will go down.”

• Mike Lee [27:16]: “And if we don’t address federal regulation, then people can choose to move from one state to another and still remain in America.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode of "Elon Musk Thinking" offers a compelling exploration of government inefficiency and the urgent need for reform through the DOGE Initiative. By bringing together influential figures advocating for deregulation, fiscal responsibility, and increased federalism, Astronaut Man provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the challenges and proposed solutions aimed at revitalizing American governance and economic stability.

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For more updates and detailed progress on the DOGE Initiative, visit the DOGE website and follow the DOGE handle on X (formerly Twitter).

Transcript

[Elon Musk]

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[Joni Ernst]

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[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Experience now, two weeks in? Is there actually a fourth branch of government?

[Mike Lee]

There most definitely is. This is actually really, what Vivek is saying is really goes to the heart of the problem. In order for us to be a true democracy, a functioning democracy, the government must be responsive to the people. That's literally what democracy means. However, when you have a vast unelected bureaucracy that is not answerable to the public and where the. And if the elected officials, if the president, the people in Congress and the Senate actually don't have. If they don't have the power to affect the bureaucracy, and it's actually extremely difficult to affect the bureaucracy, then you do not have rule of the people. You do not have democracy. You have rule of the bureau bureaucracy. And this is obviously wrong, it is unconstitutional and it is imperative therefore, that we return power to the people of the country and not have tyranny of the bureaucracy, which we most definitely have had to follow to a degree that is absurd. As Vic said, it's not just that there's an Unconstitutional fourth branch of the government. But it is arguably the most powerful branch of the government. Joni, I see your back. Would you.

[Joni Ernst]

Yes. Can you hear me now?

[Mike Lee]

I can, yes.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Yep.

[Joni Ernst]

I apologize, gentlemen. Yes. I'd hop to my laptop. I've been working on this for, as Elon said, over a decade with my squeal awards. And there are many in Congress that actually really do care about this.

[Mike Lee]

Absolutely.

[Joni Ernst]

The problem, I think, is there. There are not enough of us.

[Mike Lee]

Yes.

[Joni Ernst]

That have. And so while I highlight a lot of the abuses. And you wanted some anecdotes, Elon, and I've shared a number of those with.

[Mike Lee]

You, so I think it's hard to resonate. It's hard for the public to resonate with statistics because people can really resonate with powerful anecdotes.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Joni had a bunch of them.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

You had a bunch of them, Joanie.

[Joni Ernst]

Yeah, I did. Sending kitties to spas to find out whether they produce less fur balls. Heck up less furballs. So, yeah, we've spent taxpayer money on that. We put shrimp on a treadmill to see how fast they run. I'm sorry. All of these things, while they may be fun, why are we spending taxpayer dollars on them? And it. And it goes to the point of we've sent millions of dollars to China. What Covid. We saw how that ended.

[Mike Lee]

In fact, it's pretty outrageous that the COVID the virus was developed in what is lab in Wuhan, and yet it was funded by US tax dollars, which was simply routed through this fake nonprofit, eco health, because the government, the US Government can't give directly to China. So they just gave to ecohealth to knowing that it would go to China. So our US Tax dollars were used effectively to in the end, kill Americans, which is insane.

[Joni Ernst]

Absolutely insane. And I know, Elon, you have been on aid. You have really.

[Mike Lee]

And that's the oneness nest for sure.

[Joni Ernst]

This was another one of my efforts. And this began years ago when we were trying to figure out what they were doing with our American taxpayer dollars that were going to support humanitarian efforts in. In Ukraine. So I wanted to know exactly how those dollars were being spent. And not a reasonable request. Yes. Oh my gosh. And. And I shared this with you earlier, Elon, just privately, but we got threats from USAID because I was trying to exercise my oversight capacity in Congress. So they.

[Mike Lee]

That's just shocking. It's how honestly, it's outrageous that a taxpayer funded organization would threaten a US Senator who is simply trying to figure out if American taxpayer money is Being spent correctly and not fraudulently.

[Joni Ernst]

Yes. And so what my staff and I had estimated was that 30 to 40% of the USAID's awards would go to indirect costs. So their overhead, their rent, employees, things like that.

[Mike Lee]

What are they living in the Ta Mahal?

[Joni Ernst]

Okay, okay. After months and months of obstruction, where UN Wouldn't let us in, they told us the nicra, the negotiated indirect cost rate agreements. It's a lot of government jargon, but anyway, the indirect cost, they said that the database. Oh, it doesn't exist. That was a lie. That was a lie. It was false because we found it. And then we were told we weren't allowed to access the database. And then that's when Congressman McCall and I came together and we launched an official congressional investigation so that we could gain access to the rates.

[Mike Lee]

Wow.

[Joni Ernst]

And then after about six more months of negotiations, then my staff was finally allowed to access very limited data. They were allowed to go into a room and they couldn't take notes. They were on camera the whole time. They couldn't remove any of the information. But what my staff found is. You were laughing at that 30 to 40%. Because that is outrageous. That was understated.

[Mike Lee]

What?

[Joni Ernst]

In some of the cases, the NICRA rates were upwards towards anywhere from 50 to 60%. And that doesn't include the cost for subcontractors, what the subcontractors were adding on. So this is the problem with usaid. And that's why, Elon, I'm just. I am with you on this because so much of that taxpayer money is. Is not even going to. We love to feel good about helping starving children and name your country, but it's not going there. It's going to. It's going to pay rents in Paris.

[Mike Lee]

Yes.

[Joni Ernst]

It's going to support somebody's fancy dinner to entertain whoever.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So to be clear, in shutting down, which we're in the process of doing, shutting down usaid. The reason for that, as opposed to simply trying to do some minor house cleaning, is that as we dug into usaid, it became apparent that what we have here is not. Not an apple with a worm in it, but we have actually just a ball of worms. And so at the point at which you don't merely, you've got an apple and it's got a worm in it, maybe you can take the worm out, but if you've got actually just a ball of worms, it's hopeless. And USID is a ball of worms. There is no apple. And when there is no apple, you've Just got to basically get rid of the whole thing. That is why it's got to go. It's beyond repair. So. Yeah.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Well, there's a solution to this which is that let's say something's got that the people of this country just demand needs to exist again. It can always be voted back into existence by Senator Ernst and her colleagues. The fact that isn't going to happen reveals exactly why many of these agencies really. Deletion is the only answer that's left.

[Mike Lee]

Yes, exactly right. If it turns out we really need such an organization in the future. We just created problem solved.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

By the people.

[Mike Lee]

Yes. Yeah, by the people answerable and answerable to the people and to the people's elected representatives. That is the way that government is supposed to work.

[Joni Ernst]

I agree. And more transparency. Sunshine is the best disinfectant out there.

[Mike Lee]

And they hate sunshine. That tells you something.

[Joni Ernst]

Yes. We really, we need to be able to exercise our oversight. And this is where we have been blocked so long in Congress. You can go onto my official website on the Internet. You can look through my priorities. Go to my squeal area. You can go back. I've got the last several years on there of efforts, whether it's usaid, nih, the National Institutes of Health, those taxpayer dollars that were going to China's Wuhan Institute of Virology, snap over payments through USDA and the state, you name it. The gosh, just even my back to my back to work report the out of the office that we've talked so much about. And on day one, the president came in and said, hey everybody, back to work.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah.

[Joni Ernst]

I don't think most Americans understand that only 6% of our federal workforce shows up to work in the office every single day. Only 6%.

[Mike Lee]

Yes. And it's truly insane. In fact, and one of the most insane things I've seen was that I was speaking with the. With hopefully soon to be Attorney General Pam Bondi and she was telling me that the. The U.S. engraving is actually, I guess was used for the U.S. mint, which is actually a building that is an historic building. Actually a beautiful building is it's here in D.C. and the windows are all broken and has turned into a homeless encampment. That means like this. So like this no one comes to work to such a degree that this beautiful building has all the windows broken and is turned into a homeless encampment in downtown D.C. that's how absurd it is. It's beyond belief.

[Joni Ernst]

Yeah. And that's why so many of these buildings. If we could repopulate them. That would be great. And that way we can have oversight and make sure employees are doing what they're supposed to do. I'm going to hammer on USAID one more time. We. Yeah, so we talk about the locality pay abuse and that what happens when people aren't working in the office, what they're doing in D.C. and not everyone. I don't want to accuse every federal worker of being a bad actor, but I have seen so many examples of this. We had a USAID employee that was falsely using an office supply retailer's mailing address. Think like Staples and places like that, using that address in Virginia to defraud the taxpayers by claiming higher Washington, D.C. locality pay. But they were actually living in another state full time and they had the full knowledge and assistance of their supervisor in pulling off this scam. And then the, and then the ig, the usaid, IG blew off my request for an investigation.

[Mike Lee]

What did they give that seems. How can they do that?

[Joni Ernst]

They can. This is the problem we have is that there are checks and balances in place where we can write letters all day and we can request IG oversight. But if that IG says I'm not going to investigate, I'm not interested. I, as a United States Senator, don't have the power to force them to do it. And this is why I'm so excited that we have DOGE and that we have a president that's willing to back us up.

[Mike Lee]

Absolutely. So really, none of this could be done without the full support of the President. And with regard to the USAID aid stuff, I went over it with him in detail and he agreed with that we should shut it down. That's. I want to be clear. That's. And I actually checked with them a few times, said, are you sure? I'm like, yes. So we're shutting it down. And yeah, it's. It's also incredibly politically partisan and has been supporting radical left causes throughout the world, including things that are anti American. Which is insane.

[Joni Ernst]

Right. And that's why the. There are probably some arguments to be made about what could be important work that falls under usaid. But the fact of the matter is that it's been. It has been overshadowed by these bad actors.

[Mike Lee]

Yes.

[Joni Ernst]

If there are truly good pro American programs, then let's move them to the State Department.

[Mike Lee]

Exactly.

[Joni Ernst]

Let's make sure we have proper oversight.

[Mike Lee]

Exactly.

[Joni Ernst]

Let's make sure that when senators and congressmen are asking for documents that they provide them in a timely manner.

[Mike Lee]

Yes.

[Joni Ernst]

Let's make sure the IGs are upfront and honest and wanting to be the watchdog over the agencies that they are charged with. This is not rocket scientist and you're a rocket scientist.

[Mike Lee]

This is simply common sense and being responsive to the electorate. And that's. You just can't have these institute these sort of institutions which are taking let's taxpayer money but then are not answerable to elected representatives of the public. Then they're totally disconnected. So I quote, like we must move away from rule of the bureau to rule of the people Demos.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

And I would say I'm hopeful that some of this creates momentum. Joni, with interns, with some of your colleagues as well, in passing the REINS Act. Right. Half of this is decades of Congress effectively just punting off the responsibility to avoid accountability. Not you, but many of your colleagues over the years. And hopefully if this is a catalyst to say Congress and the Senate say we make take the lawmaking power back to the elected representatives of the people and get the kinds of things done that haven't gotten done for years like the REINS act and other mechanisms to say lawmaking power comes back to Congress. I think that could be one of the best things to come out of all of this. I'm hopeful that happens this time. I know you're supportive. Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Like I said, fundamentally there's gotta be a feedback loop to the people. You can't have these organizations that are just disconnected from the. The will of the people. Like I said, you just fundamentally do not have a democracy in that situation. You have tyranny of the bureaucracy, which is just inappropriate and needs to end.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

By the way, you know who's pumped up about you bringing everybody back to work is actually Muriel Bowser, Mayor of dc. You're talking about the homeless encampments. I talked to her maybe last month or month and a half ago. And that's a Democrat. Doesn't matter. It's basically A, the base principle of A self governance and B saving money and making sure that our buildings aren't being infested by homeless invasion, but instead is actually creating a thriving capital, I think is shockingly a bipartisan idea. If we give people the permission to come out as Democrats and say those things make sense, which I think we're seeing, some of which I think is cool.

[Mike Lee]

No, you're absolutely right. The lack of people showing up for work in D.C. has actually made D.C. look like a ghost town. In fact, parts of D.C. it really, it looks post apocalyptic in parts of D.C. because once you, once people start coming to work, then the Restaurants close down, then the stores close down and then you just have boarded up stores and restaurants and it destroys the small businesses in downtown D.C. yeah, and it's, there's a reason why people come to work and are more effective and more collaborative in one place. We're rediscovering. Why do you have offices? Oh, it turns out there's a reason and the President has made his all clear. Return to work. That's it, end of story.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

I think the first two weeks has been pretty massive and if it continues at that rate, even if you think about one of the big economic questions right now is the ten year treasury rates. Right. They're going up. Bond markets don't like our national debt. If this is the pace of what cutting looks like presented in a coherent plan, I'm hopeful that bond investors and credit investors in the US Government debt can at least say, okay, this is positive progress which actually will bring down not only the costs that you're cutting directly, but also our interest rate costs.

[Mike Lee]

Yes.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

And I think that's really when we hit a virtuous cycle here, which I think could happen soon.

[Mike Lee]

No, I agree. Actually the bond markets do not currently reflect the savings that I'm confident we can achieve. And I'm actually, I'm giving a talk later this Week with JPMorgan Chase and Jamie Dimon and this, that'll be obviously a financial audience and really to just to say, look, if you're shorting bonds, I think you're on the wrong side of the bet. It's basically.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Seriously?

[Mike Lee]

Yeah, it's really basically the bond. There will be less debt needed as we stop wasting taxpayer money on crazy things. Whatever. The $50 million for condoms to Gaza, which I suspect didn't actually end up being condoms in Gaza. That's a lot of condoms, guys. What is that, a super tank or condoms? I mean, how many need.

[Joni Ernst]

Oh my gosh, you guys, that's a real line item.

[Mike Lee]

Is this fiction?

[Joni Ernst]

I don't doubt that we did have those items going to Gaza. I don't know if it was that many, but this is the line item.

[Mike Lee]

It was $50 million.

[Joni Ernst]

This is the problem. Yeah, it was probably that line item, but God knows what.

[Mike Lee]

Really.

[Joni Ernst]

Exactly. But that's the problem we have with the budget and why when monies flow through all of these entities, we may have a line item that goes to say USAID and, or maybe goes through USAID to the United nations and then from the United nations it goes to a subcontractor and from that subcontractor it goes to someone else. It is a nightmare trying to follow that money and to understand what it's actually being used for. So again, going back to the transparency, we just, we need to make sure that we have our eyes on it and that it's easily accessible and maybe not just by members of Congress, but also the public as well.

[Mike Lee]

I agree, it should be. If it's public money being spent, it should be in full view of the public. But. And when they want to hide the stuff, frankly, it is. The reality is because there's massive fraud and abuse. That's the reality. Nobody needs to hide something unless they have something to hide. Once in a while you've got something that's say an intelligence operation or that, that actually needs to be classified. But that's, that's a rare situation. That's a tiny fraction of expenditures, the vast majority of these things. It's unfortunately a tremendous amount of fraud and abuse. And the, the reason that is so extreme with the federal government is that the checks never bounce for the federal government. Okay? So the federal government can always make more money. And the problem is that in doing so, that's what creates inflation. Something that I really want to reinforce for people is that it's government spending that creates inflation. So when you see prices go up at the grocery store, it's because the government spent more money than it brought in. Taxes increased the money supply, diluted the value of money and made you, made your paycheck go be less valuable. It meant like the prices are going up because of government induced spending of government spending that results in inflation. So now it's just very important to connect those dots because people don't, they think maybe the supermarket's taking advantage of them and they're not. You can look at the financials of the supermarket. They have 2% margins. It's got nothing to do with price gouging of the supermarket. It's just that the government spent too much that increased the money supply and diluted the value of somebody's paycheck. And that's why the prices go up at the grocery store. But the good news is if we solve government overspending and the money supply grows at the same rate as the output of goods and services, there will be no inflation. And the prices in the supermarket now will be the same as the prices in the supermarket in a year. And that's a super big deal. And that really affects people's lives. That's what we're aiming for. And we're going to do everything possible to succeed in that goal.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

And I think every dollar saved. The problem you just mentioned, Elon, is exactly why 10 year interest rates on US treasuries are persistently going up. Even if the government's trying to make them go down, the market's bidding them right back up. Yes, but conversely, for every dollar hard dollar actually saved. Right. So how many ever billion it was in the first two weeks, there's actually, it's almost like a 2 to 1 savings because that means that the interest rate that lenders to the US Government charge will go down at a time when the interest rate payment itself on our national debt is one of the biggest items of our federal budget. Yeah, so that automatically comes down for every one of these other savings.

[Mike Lee]

Exactly.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

And the only thing to present it as a coherent plan, which I think you're already beginning to do, that alone, I think will have a 2 to 1 savings for every dollar that's actually hard dollar that's actually saved because you get the interest cost next year that comes down as a consequence as well.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah, that's, that's actually a very good point you just made, Vivek. I just want to basically repeat that and reiterate that for the audience. When you get, you actually get a double benefit when you bring down government spending. And this is a very important double benefit, which is that you stop inflation and interest payments go down because the government is no longer borrowing money. So if the government is borrowing money, it's actually competing with everyone else to borrow money and that drives up the interest rate. So if we solve government spending in a nutshell, your grocery bill stays the same, your mortgage payment goes down and your car payment goes down and your credit card bill goes down.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Exactly.

[Mike Lee]

I think that's what the people of America want. Obviously.

[Joni Ernst]

I couldn't agree. It's really important. And I'm sitting here tonight in Iowa and I took my mom to church this morning and man, everybody at church, we all stand around after words and visit and everybody's just really excited about the opportunity that the new administration is bringing because costs are just through the roof. For people in my neighborhood in southwest Iowa, it's hard. These are folks just getting up every single morning, trying to do their job and do the best. And yet we as a government have failed to listen to their needs and then to be able to cut the spending at the federal level to make, make sure that their taxes stay low and make sure that we are paying down our debt. No more deficit spending. Let's try and balance this budget as Best we can. And we've heard plans from Ron Johnson and others in the Congress, but we've really got to get serious about it because every one of my constituents owes $67,000 to our national. That's outrageous.

[Mike Lee]

And it's getting worse over time. So really, if we don't do something about it, America's going to go bankrupt. That's a fact. So we must do something about imperative. Senator Mike Lee, I see you've joined. Would you like to add something to this conversation? You've got some great stuff as well to talk about.

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, I'd love to. Thanks so much for the invitation. Look, I see this as an inflection point. Every 75 to 90 years in Anglo American history, we've seen a major upheaval. We had one in 1776, another one in 1861, another one in 1937, 2025, we're due for one. And I think that's going to be the Doge Revolution. And I think it has to be about much more than just the individualized wasteful spending. Pet projects. At the core of all this is a fundamental ailment which is that we've missed the purpose of the United States government. It's supposed to be about just a small handful of things. Weights and measures, trademarks, copyrights and patents regulating intersect foreign commerce.

[Mike Lee]

The founders of the country, it would blow their minds that the federal government has gotten so gigantic and is interfering with people's lives in so many ways.

[Donald Trump]

That's exactly right. And then we've compounded the problem. Once we lost track of what the federal government's purpose is, we put the wrong branch in charge of the wrong responsibilities. We've been making most of our law 100,000 pages a year through the executive branch, which the Constitution says you can't do. It says you cannot make a federal law unless you go through both houses of Congress and then give it to the President. So we've destroyed federalism and separation of powers. I think for DOGE to succeed, we have to restore both of those. In my view, the best way to start is by passing the REINS act, which would require Congress to enact those laws. And I think to get that passed this year, we've got to attach it to the debt ceiling bill. I don't agree on that.

[Mike Lee]

On my base, Mike Lee, I absolutely agree with you 100%. What you're saying is just absolutely true, that there's vast amounts of federal regulation, which are de facto laws that are created, that it's an incomprehensible amount. It's literally no human could possibly even comprehend it. If you tried your hardest your whole life, you could barely understand a small fraction of the regulations. These regulations, if you look at them, there's millions of them. And it's not like any one regulation is the showstopper, but the way I visualize it, it's like Gulliver, like America's, like Gulliver, tied down by millions of little strings. And we need to cut those strings and free the giant.

[Donald Trump]

Exactly. That's exactly right. If those laws, which they are laws, those will put you in prison, those will shut down your business, those will ruin your life if you display them. Exactly. No different than any other law.

[Mike Lee]

It's totally crazy.

[Joni Ernst]

Exciting. Elon, isn't it true President Trump has an executive order that says for every one new regulation that is put into place, 10 have to be rescinded?

[Mike Lee]

Yes. Yes. Now, of course, the bureaucracy is going to try to game that by having the one regulation. When, like somebody says, I have. Everyone can ask one question, but then have a question in three, 10 parts. So it's possible to. It's possible to gain the regulations. So I think in addition to that executive order, which I certainly applaud, I think we need to go and do wholesale removal of regulations. Like regulations basically should be default gone. Default gone. Not default there. Default gone. And if it turns out that we missed the mark on a regulation, always add it back in. These regulations are added willy nilly all the time. So we just got to do wholesale spring cleaning of regulation and get the government off the backs of everyday Americans so people can get things done. And the government doesn't have a sort of boot on the neck of the average American. One of the core founding values of this country, what has made America great, what will lead to further greatness, is a focus on merit, that you get ahead as a function of your hard work and skill, and that you have freedom. It's free. It's the land of freedom and opportunity. And if the government has millions of regulations holding everyone back, it's not freedom. We've got to restore freedom.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

And by the way, that's copied, multiplied, and 50 fold higher. Where each of the 50 states then do the same thing.

[Mike Lee]

Yes.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

And many of these federal regulations are duplicative of the states doing the exact same thing, where the bureaucracies in each of the states are behaving like the federal government. So you think about the impact on people's lives. It just layers one on top of the other. And like you talk about zero based budgeting. I really like this concept of zero based regulations where the default is nothing and build back on top.

[Mike Lee]

Exactly right.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

I mean, that's what our founders wanted.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah, absolutely. It used to be like not that long ago, if you wanted to start a business, you just, just start a business, you just go, you just open the store, you can just do it. The government's not like prying into every part of get the license for this, do the license for that, get 17,000 permits. You look at LA and like how it's when I lived in LA, it was hard to get a permit to remodel your kitchen. And now with this disaster that's happening in la, this terrible tragedy, just the sheer number of permits required to build a house are staggering. Basically, they've made it illegal. But we gotta start somewhere on the regulatory front. And certainly at least if we address federal regulation, then people can choose to move from one state to another and still remain in America and move to the state that has less regulation, where the government gives you more freedom and you've got that competition between states, you've got that federal system. That was meant to be the case, that was how the country was created. Let the states compete. And if your state is being oppressive, you can go to a neighboring state and live there. That's the whole idea.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Federalism is the answer. No doubt. But you got two things going for us right now in the country that haven't happened in a long time. One is a willing President, Donald Trump, who actually believes everything that all four of us have just said, which is a beautiful thing. And without that, it wouldn't be possible.

[Mike Lee]

The more I've gotten to know President Trump, the more I like him, frankly. I love the guy. He's great.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Yeah. And he's full bore more than any president we've had since the creation of the administrative state. So I think that's number one. And number two is thanks to him, actually in his first term, you got a Supreme Court that 6 to 3 vehemently agrees with everything we've just said.

[Mike Lee]

Yes.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

And so I think it's possible. Yeah, it's actually possible.

[Mike Lee]

Yes. In fact, if it's not possible now, it'll never be possible. This is our shot. This is the best hand of cards we're ever going to have. And if we don't take advantage of this, best hand of cards is never going to happen. So we're going to do it.

[Joni Ernst]

I agree.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Now or never.

[Joni Ernst]

Yeah, now or never. And I do think you're right. Vivek with the first administration of President Trump and lessons learned through that administration and now in the second administration, the stage is set and he knows how to aggressively tackle a lot of these issues that have plagued us for years. And folks ask me, oh, Trump's first 100 days, what is that going to be like? And I'm like, forget the hundred days, folks. It's going to happen a lot faster than that. And he needs to continue to be aggressive. And we all know there's going to be bumps along the way. Of course there are, because we're moving at the speed of relevance here. But we've got to get in there and make an impact so that our constituents can actually see the benefit. Because we've got a tough mid cycle or mid presidential year election coming up in 2026, and we cannot lose the House or the Senate because then the President will be dead in the water.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah.

[Joni Ernst]

And we just need to move out. Move out.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah. I think that's really, the people will judge the performance and whether actually we got things done and whether things were better off and in two years. And I think if people feel like, yeah, they're better off, the country's working better, they feel there's the reward for hard work is there, that their, their paycheck's going further than it used to, that their standard of living is better, their mortgage is lower, the credit card bills are lower, the prices at the, at the stores are the same. It haven't like risen dramatically. Then I think there's no problem. The who will win the next election? The people will reward that. So I think that's, that's what needs to happen. And if, but I think if it does happen, there will be a Republican win in the midterms. And which is usually, which is unusual, but I think if we make these goals happen, I think we'll actually have an increased majority in, in the House and Senate and be able to continue to, as the President would say, make America great and even greater.

[Joni Ernst]

So love it.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

The case, the blanket that Dylan, you and I have talked about this. Mike Lee, you and I have talked about this. Might as well just say it here as well. Is when in doubt, push it to the states. Right. If there's some doubt about, okay, we're not sure about this regulation. You got a whole nuclear energy framework at the federal level. You have an entire one in each of the 50 states. Same thing for spending or some other program. Are people going to really suffer if this is taken away? Federalism is the answer. Just push it to the states. And I think that's a big part of obviously what I'm looking to do next. But it's governors across the state, whatever. Let them bear the load of what the federal government needed because that's actually what the founders envisioned in the first place. I know, Mike, you've been a crusader for this since day one.

[Donald Trump]

That is right. That is the whole reason I ran for this job 15 years ago. The fact is the people of our country are upset. They're upset about our government because it manages things poorly. And what a lot of people are starting to grasp is that it's not just a matter of changing from the red team to the blue team back to the red team and making sure you've got better personnel in there because better personnel won't make those same mistakes and won't fund the stupid studies about the drunk gerbils on a treadmill.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah.

[Donald Trump]

The point is it's poorly run because when the US government is doing all kinds of things that it's not supposed to be doing that should be left to the states or to the people, in the words of the 10th Amendment, it becomes very poor, very bad at doing few things that it is supposed to do. You can't be good at running the Pentagon and at making sure that traffic lanes, lines of commerce are open. When you are doing all kinds of things that the federal government wasn't built to do, we're using it as the wrong tool. There are very few things the federal government currently does that the federal government is itself uniquely equipped in constitutional authorized to do. That's what we've got to get back to. And that's why this is going to be a painful, radical, transformational change in many circumstances. But it's going to be a huge relief to the American people. Once we get through the initial shock and once we get through this stage where the media is telling us the sky is going to fall, dogs and cats living together in the streets, apocalyptic stuff. Once they realize that's not true, they're going to feel this huge burden lifted.

[Mike Lee]

It.

[Donald Trump]

That's what we want. We want a better future for America. We can't get to.

[Mike Lee]

Absolutely.

[Donald Trump]

Returning to our founding document.

[Mike Lee]

Exactly. I couldn't agree with you more. And I'm actually pretty optimistic that we're going to make it happen. It's going to. It's. This is. I think it's going to happen. So the progress is good so far and if it keeps accelerating, then I think it's going to. It's going to be awesome. Like the cost of excess regulation on economic growth and prosperity is like really underestimated. Like if you basically don't even permit, allow people to do things like make it illegal, you can't. The builders can't build. America is a nation of builders. But we need to give the builders permission to build. And that's really what deregulation is all about, just letting people do things.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Deregulation and meritocracy go hand in hand. Actually there are two sides of the same coin. And you want to actually measure Doge's success is not just the deficit reduction. I don't think that's the sole metric, although it's a really important one. And bringing down the national debt and the interest payment cost as a consequence, that's really important. But actually a lot of these benefits of delivering economic growth won't be measured in this year's deficit reduction, but will be measured in long run GDP growth. Long run economic growth wrong. Or prosperity of the country. Yeah, and I think that's equally important.

[Mike Lee]

I actually, I'm optimistic that we'll see a material impact in FY26 which starts in October. A lot of the stuff I think will make significant gains in FY25, government financial year 25, which ends in September. But I think the sort of metric we're tracking startup style or just. And we're going to be posting more and more detail on the DOGE website and DOGE handle on X is just so people can see in detail. This is where we're seeing the delta in spending between current spending and government financial year 25, which are 26, which starts in October. And that number is really, we think it's at this point over $1 billion a day, maybe 2 billion, maybe approaching 3. And I think we can take a trillion dollars out of the deficit next year. Obviously this is going to require strong support from the President but thus far we certainly have that, that and also support of the Congress and also hopefully support from the judiciary as well. But basically the goal in a nutshell is pretty straightforward. We have a $2 trillion deficit which is far in excess of economic growth. If we can get that deficit in half from 2 trillion to 1 trillion, and we can get the economic growth to match that 1 trillion growth in the money supply, that means there will be no inflation and, and also that interest rates will drop, credit card interest down, mortgage interest down, car payment interest down, and prices at the store stay the same. That is a great outcome for people. And I think, I think we can do it.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

You know, People say it's unrealistic. No, people say it's unrealistic. It's the funniest part about this is just the hard number here. The four of us here know the answer. But for people who are listening, it might just be. Might be eye opening where like, how much money did the federal government actually spend last year? Not the mumbo jumbo non discretionary this and not just like how much did the federal government spend last year? It was about 7 trillion. It's just under $7 trillion. How much did we spend in this like ancient time period known as 2019?

[Joni Ernst]

Right.

[Mike Lee]

Not that long ago.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Like this year called 2019.

[Donald Trump]

Not that long ago.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

We'll kind of remember 2019. It was four and a half.

[Joni Ernst]

It was less.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Less than four and a half. 4.45. Less than about four and a half trillion dollars. That's two and a half trillion right there.

[Mike Lee]

Yes.

[Joni Ernst]

So if you just go back to.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

2019, that's two and a half trillion.

[Mike Lee]

Exactly.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Which is insane actually, that they think that's impossible is 2019 was not that long ago.

[Donald Trump]

And nobody thought that there was an apocalyptic hellscape underway in 2019.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

22 is pretty cool, actually. I like 2019.

[Mike Lee]

2019 was not some nightmarish hellscape. Exactly. In fact, we got. And Mike, things were just fine in 2019.

[Joni Ernst]

Mike can vouch for this too though, what we saw with COVID as we were pushing all those dollars out the door, they started a lot of programs with those dollars and people just continue to expect those dollars to come. Even though we're way beyond Covid. Yes, way beyond Covid.

[Mike Lee]

So often people will say you can't reduce deficit that much because what about all the entitlement spending? There's the sort of guaranteed spending. But here's the thing, and especially during COVID as you alluded to, there was actually a massive growth, massive increase in the amount of fraud and waste in entitlements with like fake people like collecting Social Security, like bogus payments to Medicare. The level of fraud is actually staggering and it just cutting back on that. And by the way, it's not just even US fraud rigs. I don't know if people realize this, but there's the estimates I've seen are between 100 and $200 billion in foreign fraud rings. There are professional foreign fraud rings operating that are taking somewhere between 100 and $200 billion a year of US taxpayer money out of the country. A lot of people realize that. And so the fraud in that case isn't Even going to American fraudsters, it's going somewhere in other countries.

[Joni Ernst]

Elon, I sent that example to you the other day. Sat down with a friend of yours work in ID technology, and he showed me that video of a deep fake where it was a Chinese scammer trying to receive US Federal government benefits.

[Mike Lee]

Just.

[Joni Ernst]

It's out. It's outrageous. But so much of that money that Chinese scammers are taking out of the pockets of our taxpayers.

[Mike Lee]

Yes. And I mean, there's really, there's Because American entitlements are being defrauded by people not even in the US and from many other countries, because the fraud controls are so weak on the entitlement programs, the due diligence is so bad that it's actually possible to operate hundreds, if not thousands of fake people and get entitlements sent to you that you then take the money out of the country, out of the United States. This is happening as we speak. It's utterly insane. So this is why I'm actually quite optimistic that a trillion dollars can be saved just by addressing waste, fraud and abuse. While it's a lot of work, I don't think this is some insurmountable task. I am confident it can be done and we'll do everything in our power to make it happen. And I think that'll be if we succeed. And I hope would like to ask for the support of the American people, because we're going to get a lot of opposition. Because let me tell you from the. What I remember most from. One of the things I remember from the PayPal days was that who complains the loudest is the fraudsters. Okay, so like the. So when somebody was trying to commit fraud of PayPal, where we would see the most amount of righteous indignation, like, it would be like immediate, over the top righteous indignation was from the fraudsters, not from honest people. Because honest people are like, oh, I think there's something wrong with my account. I guess. I wonder what's wrong. Let me inquire. But the fraudsters will come at you immediately. It's like a tell that someone's actually doing fraud because the level of faux outrage is way over the top. So we're going to get a lot of that. A lot of people claiming, with fake outrage, claiming that they're a single mother with kids, just trying to feed them. Meanwhile, well, it's like some dude operating a fraud ring out of another country. Actually, that's. That's the kind of thing we'll see. So really, I would like to ask for the support of the American people in pursuit of this goal. And bearing in mind that we're going to see some pretty outrageous stuff from the fraudsters as we crack down on fraud. They're going to be the loudest complainers to anyone in America listening to this. Your support in pursuit of this goal is very much appreciated. Thank you.

[Joni Ernst]

Absolutely. And thank you, Elon and Vivek. I think we've got a ways to go, but I'm glad it's rolling along. And this just been the most aggressive effort, really, to downsize or right size our government since probably at least the Reagan revolution. So just excited to be part of it and have the support of the American people as we move through and make them squeal in Washington, D.C. yeah.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Thanks to DJT. Thank you, Elon. And you keep kicking ass. And when in doubt, send it to the states and we'll take care of it there. Exactly.

[Mike Lee]

All right, cool. Thank you. Thank you, Senator S. Lee for. And perhaps one day Senator Ramaswamy. Governor Ramaswamy.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Yeah, that's the direction we're headed.

[Mike Lee]

And, and everyone who tuned in. And once again, I'm asking for, for your support for, for noble goal. And please help in any way you can. Sometimes it's like the small things that happen on the side that, that those sort of small, thankless tasks that actually will result. The Doge is going to win. Doge will win. If millions of people support it in ways that I wouldn't even know how they supported it, but just that you did. And to the unknown soldier.

[Joni Ernst]

Yeah, definitely. And hey, Elon, before we all break out of here, I do want to acknowledge the. I've founded the Senate Doge Caucus on my side of the Rotunda. We've got some great co chairs over in the House as well with Pete Sessions and Aaron Bean and Blake Moore. They have got now, I think, over 100 members of Congress that have joined the DOGE caucus, and we've got 18 and climbing in the United States Senate as well. You and the President and Vivek have all really gotten everybody to come together. And I'm just really grateful that we have an outlet and are able to do this. Thank you all so much.

[Mike Lee]

That sounds good. And we'll be doing this every week, so I look forward to having members from the House and other contributors and try to keep the people informed and of the progress. And I think it'll be very interesting to follow along. So thanks, everyone.

[Donald Trump]

Thanks so much, Elon.

[Vivek Ramaswamy]

Thanks, guys.

[Joni Ernst]

This is Runway.