We Keep Us Safe: Circles of Silence

Summary

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Embedded – “We Keep Us Safe: Circles of Silence”

Podcast: Embedded (NPR)
Episode Date: July 30, 2026
Host/Reporters: Will James, Sydney Brownstone, David Gutman

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Episode Overview

This final episode of the "We Keep Us Safe" series tells the long, complicated story of the killing of Antonio Mays Jr. in Seattle’s CHOP (Capitol Hill Organized Protest) zone during the 2020 protests for Black lives. The episode explores both the intense search for answers and accountability for Antonio’s death, the limitations of official investigations, the parallels between protester-run security and police violence, and the lingering questions confronting activists, the city, and Antonio’s family.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Antonio Mays Jr.'s Death and the Aftermath

• Antonio Mays Sr. has searched for years for answers about his son's shooting during a protest intended to prevent violence against Black lives.
• The city’s initial silence and slow-moving investigation led Antonio’s father to pursue a wrongful death lawsuit.
• The trial focused narrowly on emergency response times and whether Antonio was committing a felony (car theft) at the moment he died, rather than on the broader circumstances or who fired the shots.
  • Quote:
    “I should know exactly what happened. I should have some answers. I should have some closure.” – Antonio Mays Sr. [02:30]

2. The Narrow Scope of Justice

• Ultimately, before the trial began, the judge allowed only a narrow question: Was the city’s emergency medical response negligent?
• Both the city and some protesters converged on the argument that Antonio bore responsibility for his own death—a narrative that haunted his father and many observers.
  • Quote:
    “What unfolded inside the courtroom was very different from what Antonio Sr. had envisioned.” – Sidney Brownstone [03:59]

3. The Hunt for 'Steve'—the Suspected Shooter

• The podcast team’s reporting identified “Steve,” the likely shooter—an armed, middle-aged white man involved in CHOP security, but not a trusted or official group member.
• Leaked, encrypted CHOP security chats and video footage helped piece together Steve’s identity and presence.
  • Quote:
    "It was one of the security who was stationed at 12 South. White man, likely in his 50s." – CHOP Security Member, voice acting [11:50]
  • Despite these leads, Steve’s full identity and whereabouts remain unknown, and Seattle Police have not commented on his status as a suspect.

4. Police and City Response: Lost Evidence and Silence

• Three days after the shooting, high-ranking officials had a photo and description of Steve, shared by protesters concerned about being wrongfully blamed.
• Police possessed security footage from multiple angles, but refused to release it, citing an ongoing investigation.
• There were FBI and police informants within CHOP, yet the case stalled; evidence may have been compromised in the chaotic aftermath.
  • Quote:
    “So now we know that three days after Antonio was killed, someone in the highest ranks of the Seattle Police Department had a photo and a description of Steve.” – Will James [18:12]

5. Echoes of Police Violence: Protesters Become "CHOP Police"

• The episode explores the bitter irony that a protest against police violence resulted in violence by protest security, echoing the problems of official policing.
• Slate, a prominent member of CHOP security, directly acknowledges these parallels, describing the lack of training, resources, and oversight as similar to the police’s own excuses.
  • Quote:
    “We are CHOP police... I think the difference is, is that if you had somebody who had been adequately trained, there was an expectation of professionalism. If there was an expectation of being monitored, I don't think that shooting would have happened.” – Slate [27:12, 27:36]
  • Slate sparks a moment of reflection: Who replaces police, and can they ever be better, or will violence repeat?

6. Responsibility, Accountability, and the Limits of Protest

• Activist Reshyla Levitt reflects painfully on the movement, accepting some sense of responsibility, but unable to identify a single act that would have changed the outcome.
  • Quote:
    “It’s absolutely ironic that it happened the way that it happened and it looks the way that it looks. And it’s sad. It’s really sad.” – Reshyla Levitt [30:48] “I think we all bear, you know, some shoulder of responsibility.” – Reshyla Levitt [31:50]
  • Most protesters interviewed frame Antonio’s death as tragic but ultimately unavoidable, emphasizing the city’s failure over internal decisions.

7. City Leaders and the Disappearing Record

• The city never had to answer for its actions in court; key officials' texts (including the mayor’s) were deleted in what investigators called a systemic failure.
  • Quote:
    “In the summer of 2020, tens of thousands of text messages from the phones of the mayor at that time, Jenny Durkin, her police chief, and other officials were deleted.” – Sidney Brownstone [35:26]
• The city simply sends a reflective email—an unsatisfactory substitute for public accountability.

8. The Verdict and Its Aftermath

• After three weeks, the jury found the City of Seattle negligent, awarding Antonio’s family over $30 million (pending appeal).
• For Antonio Sr., the verdict brings some relief but not closure—many questions remain unanswered and accountability is still elusive.
  • Quote:
    “I’m thankful for the verdict. I’m thankful for the success. But I can’t say that it feels good. I can’t say that it feels complete, because it doesn’t, you know?” – Antonio Mays Sr. [39:27] “I'm in the same darkness that I was in when we filed this in 2023. I don't know anything more. I don't know anything less. And it doesn't appear that they're doing anything more.” – Antonio Mays Sr. [39:48]

9. Remembering Antonio Jr.: Beyond the Headlines

• Reporter Omari Salisbury shares a rare video of Antonio speaking, showing him as engaged and passionate about peaceful protest, not the lawless figure painted by rumors and legal arguments.
  • Quote:
    “...it’s like a gift from God, just cracking the heavens wide open and letting the sun come gaping through... he's speaking his own testimony right there...” – Antonio Mays Sr. [44:57]
• Antonio Sr. is overwhelmed seeing his son’s real character finally documented for the public.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Antonio Sr.:
  “Why were the mayor and the chief of police, why were they not brought forward to answer for what they did wrong?” [35:05]

• Omari Salisbury (on blame and "Seattle’s humanity switch"):
  “Just another nigga dead, another whatever and everything else, man. In how Seattle with his humanity switch. I don't know. Do we show some humanity or not?” [40:57]

• Slate (CHOP Security):
  "Regardless of your political belief, if you're in a position where you have a gun in your hand and there is somebody else who might have a gun in their hand, there's a pretty reasonable expectation that you're gonna fucking shoot the wrong person." [29:12]

• Antonio Jr. (protest footage):
  "The police, their purpose is to serve and protect, right? And we agree with their purpose, but we do not agree with them because of what they've been doing. They have not been serving and protecting." [42:30]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:15]–[01:37]: Recount of prior events and Antonio Sr.’s initial search for justice
• [03:15]: The trial of Antonio Mays vs. City of Seattle begins
• [06:43]: Discovery of CHOP security’s involvement in shooting
• [10:11]–[13:12]: Leaked security chats reveal “Steve” as suspected shooter
• [16:24]: Police had shooter’s photo and description early, but investigation stalls
• [20:20]: Police bodycam footage — officers decline to process crime scene
• [27:05]: CHOP security founder reflects on ironies and failures
• [30:48]: Activist Reshyla Levitt on movement’s responsibility
• [35:26]: City officials’ deleted texts—evidence vanishes
• [38:17]: Jury verdict: city found negligent
• [42:01]: Video of Antonio Jr. at protest emerges
• [44:57]: Antonio Sr. watches footage of son, reflects on his legacy

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Themes and Tone

• Investigative, emotional, and reflective: The reporting is meticulously detailed, but the episode is filled with heartbreak and a sense of unresolved pain.
• Persistent uncertainty and system failure: Both protester and police systems failed to produce justice or accountability, with each shifting blame.
• Deep empathy for those at the story’s center: The episode gives careful space to Antonio Sr.'s grief, the protesters' complex feelings, and the void left by incomplete investigations.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with the reality that even after years of searching, legal battles, and investigative journalism, clear accountability for Antonio Mays Jr.’s death remains elusive. A sizable civil verdict offers some measure of justice, but grieving families, investigating reporters, and protesting communities still confront unsatisfying answers and cycles of violence—both within and outside the structures meant to keep us safe.

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Transcript

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[Narrator (Will James)]

Heads up. This episode contains explicit language as well as the sound of gun violence. Previously on we keep us safe.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

We're not here to sit here and control what happens in the zone. We're trying to keep the zone safe.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

How did a protest for black lives end up killing a black teenager?

[Narrator (Will James)]

When you come in shooting, you get shot back.

[Protester/Activist (Reshyla Levitt)]

The city didn't do their job.

[Narrator (Will James)]

The ambulance driver pulls away without a word.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Please, guys, help us.

[Narrator (Will James)]

The police, they didn't even give a

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

damn about the shooter.

[Guest Commentator (Dave Davies)]

I always bristle at the fact that we gave up a precinct. It's way more nuanced than that.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Arrest those people and get the answers out of each one. As to who killed my son.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

I talked to him a couple times. I only ever knew him as Steve.

[Interviewer/Host]

Who's this Steve, and is he the shooter?

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

We don't have a connection with him. We don't know anything about it.

[Narrator (Will James)]

One of the first people we interviewed in our investigation was Antonio Mays, Jr's dad. When we first talked with Antonio Mays Senior last year, it was like he was still stuck in 2020 searching for answers about his son's death. Who shot him, and how did this shooting happen? At a protest for black lives.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

At first, Antonio Sr. Believed the city and its police department would give him those answers. But he says the police went silent not long after the shooting.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I couldn't get ahold of the detective. Someone said that the case got reassigned. And someone else told me that the case was closed.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

He thought maybe a lawsuit would shake loose some new information. Maybe it could force the city to reveal whatever it knew.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I should know exactly what happened. I should have some answers. I should have some closure. Oh, this is what happened, Mr. Mays. I should be getting a report. This is what these people did. This is what happened to your son. This is who's responsible for it. This is the action that we took.

[Narrator (Will James)]

So Antonio Sr. Sued the city of Seattle and its officials for the wrongful death of his son. It took years, but late last year, the trial began. Antonio Sr. Flew from Southern California and settled into a Seattle hotel less than a mile from the courthouse, his temporary home for however many weeks the trial was going to last. Our colleague, David Gutman, was there on day one.

[Interviewer/Host]

This is David. I have just arrived at the King County Courthouse for the first day of the trial of Antonio Mayes versus the city of Seattle. And this might be the closest we ever get to an airing of the events surrounding the killing of Antonio Mays.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

All right, we are here on the Mays matter, and our jurors are assembling. And just to give everyone a preview of the morning, we'll spend the morning here for opening remarks in the presiding courtroom. And then this afternoon,

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

what unfolded inside the courtroom was very different from what Antonio Sr. Had envisioned. He believed the city created the conditions that led to his son's killing because police abandoned their precinct and ceded control of the eight block zone around it to protesters, some of whom were armed.

[Narrator (Will James)]

But before the trial even started, the judge whittled down the case to basically a single narrow question. Whether the city's emergency response was negligent in the minutes after the shooting and whether that was led to Antonio's death.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

And a big part of the defense was to put Antonio Jr. On trial. Was Antonio Mays Jr. Committing a felony at the time of the shooting that led to his death? Under Washington state law, if the city could prove that Antonio was killed while committing a felony, then the city would not be liable for his death. So city attorneys tried to convince the jury that Antonio Jr. Stole the white Jeep. But before he was shot. If you find that he was committing such a felon at the time of his death and that that was proximate cause that that led to his death, the law says the city cannot be held liable for that.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Instead of a trial that focused on how his son was killed, Antonio Sr. Got a trial that focused a lot on whether or not his son stole a car. I sat in the courtroom almost every day, and as I watched Antonio Sr. At the plaintiff's table, it was hard not to think about the narratives about his son that had been out there for years. He was always quick to get in someone's face and try and start a fight. I heard a lot of rumors about gang involvement.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

You young and you got a weapon. You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.

[Narrator (Will James)]

It was like these narratives followed Antonio Sr.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Into that courtroom, like five years after they clashed in the streets. The city government and the protesters were actually on the same page.

[Narrator (Will James)]

And what brought them together was a story that they weren't to blame for Antonio's death, because at some level, the blame fell on Antonio himself.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

It seemed like the questions that haunted Antonio Sr. Were again going to be ignored. By the time the trial got underway, we had been investigating Antonio's killing for close to a year. And we'd found that Chop Security fired on Antonio and two friends who appeared to have no guns and were joy

[Narrator (Will James)]

riding around that after the boys crashed into a barricade at the edge of Chopper, someone ran right up to the passenger side door and fired multiple shots at close range. Most importantly, we'd gotten a description of that shooter and a name, Steve.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

And now we were staring down a set of questions that the trial wasn't really going to answer. Who bears responsibility for Antonio's death and why is there still no accountability for it? From NPR is embedded with KUOW in the Seattle Times. This is the final episode of We Keep Us Safe. I'm Sydney Brownstone.

[Narrator (Will James)]

I'm Will James. This is episode eight.

[Sponsor Representative (Jake Kalik)]

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[Narrator (Will James)]

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[Sponsor Representative (Jake Kalik)]

Learn more about Made in Cookware at M a d e I-n cookware.com this

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[Guest Commentator (Dave Davies)]

This is Fresh Air's Dave Davies. Renowned classic scholar Emily Wilson made headlines when she called Christopher Nolan's adaptation of the Odyssey abysmally written.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's a star studded cast and they're

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

doing their absolute best with the script they were given.

[Guest Commentator (Dave Davies)]

I talked with Wilson about her scathing critique and so much more. Listen to Fresh Air on the NPR app or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

When it comes to who's responsible for Antonio's death, the answer clearly starts with the person who fired the shots that killed him. More than a year of reporting led us to Steve.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Steve was the name given to us by Slate, a self described founder of the Chop Security group known as the Sentinels. Slate said Steve was the man who fired those shots.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Slate also told us that Steve was a rando, that he wasn't really part of CHOP security and he was mentally unstable. So we needed to find out more about who Steve was and why he was there.

[Narrator (Will James)]

And then we caught a break.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

While we worked on this investigation, we published messages in the Seattle Times asking people to share any tips about Antonio's death. We got almost 200 responses. And a handful of the people who wrote to us had volunteered as CHOP security or medics.

[Narrator (Will James)]

One of those people had held onto a batch of secret encrypted chats that CHOP Security had used to communicate. They shared these chats with us. We're going to keep this source anonymous because they're concerned about the personal and professional repercussions of sharing this information. Some of those secret messages were from the night Antonio was killed.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

This chat includes a mix of security volunteers and it starts a couple of hours after the shooting. You'll hear voice actors reading some of these texts to make the conversation easier to follow. Someone who is apparently at the scene posts an update. Around 2:33ish, I was stationed at 12 South.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

A white SUV drove through the entry weak point of the barricade. I think the passenger side was firing shots into the air today.

[Narrator (Will James)]

We know a video analyst hired by the city of Seattle found multiple gunshots fired that night, but didn't identify any coming from the white Jeep. We also know some people on the ground thought the boys in the jeep were shooting.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

The security chat goes on.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

An armed guard started unloading into the people who were were in the vehicle that drove through the barricade. Of the assailants, I heard that one was possibly dead, another was critically injured and that the other ran someone with

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

the handle FayOfTheWilds replies with a question. People are saying our security shot the car. Do we have confirmation it was even us who shot back?

[Narrator (Will James)]

And the person who's giving the report replies

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

it was one of the security who was stationed at 12 South. White man, likely in his 50s.

[Narrator (Will James)]

It was one of the security. That's different from the impression Slate gave us.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

It felt like we were finally getting a fuller picture of who killed Antonio. And it was coming from people who were apparently there on the ground with Steve on the night of the shooting.

[Narrator (Will James)]

The source who leaked the first set of messages also gave us another chat. Three days after Antonio was killed, someone called Canada Guy posts a photo.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

It shows a man standing in profile. Based on the background, it looks like it was taken at chop. He looks like a heavyset white guy. He's standing with a copper colored dog

[Narrator (Will James)]

that's wearing a jacket this guy's wearing a mask, something on his head, maybe a bandana and a hood over that. He's got what looks like a leather jacket on, tan cargo pants, boots.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

And this guy, according to the person who posted the photo, is the suspected shooter. A sentinel named Rebel responds.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

Steve.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Steve. The same name that Slate gave us. More sentinels chime in and agree.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

Accurate so far as I've heard.

[Narrator (Will James)]

That looks like Steve.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

That's Steve.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Same boot.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

That's definitely Steve. He's the dumbass who kept leaving his gun on my van and kept grabbing it when anyone approached the barrier that night.

[Narrator (Will James)]

This is a breakthrough because suddenly a bunch of the descriptions we've gotten of the shooter seem to be coming together. Austin Sharp, a self described medic known as Joker, told us he saw a man with a biker look rifling through the Jeep after the shooting ended. The way this guy in the photo is dressed, it could easily be the biker guy Austin described.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Ashley Dar Elis, a livestreamer, seemed to have caught that same person on video after the shooting saying, pick up my shells. The guy in Ashley's livestream seems to be wearing the same jacket and pants as the guy in the photo.

[Narrator (Will James)]

It's looking like this guy really was there that night. Maybe he really is that close range shoot.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Using this photo and these scraps of information, we searched for Steve and this search led us down some bizarre social media rabbit holes. We looked into a Steve who was a fire commissioner in a Seattle suburb and a Steve who's a welder in Indiana and possible Steves in a motorcycle club in Kentucky. They were all dead ends.

[Narrator (Will James)]

We also reached out to people from the Chop security chats who say they saw Steve or interacted with him, but they wouldn't talk with us. We went back and forth with the person who posted the photo of Steve, but he eventually stopped responding.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

In the end we didn't find Steve. What we're left with is a description cobbled together from the photo and witness accounts. As best we can tell, most have described Steve as short, maybe around £250, it's worth saying. At least one witness says he saw a tall built guy shooting at close range. So there might be some discrepancies in terms of his size.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Steve is white, maybe in his 50s, kind of grizzled looking, with a gray beard. He may be local to the Pacific Northwest and have kind of a biker look at least in 2020. He had what protesters described as a service dog that looks kind of like a pit bull mix. And he drove A van.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

And he sounds like this.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Unless you see any shells on the ground, pick those up, pocket them, take them home.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

Hell, yeah.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

No evidence.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Pick that shit up.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, pick up my shells, because I

[Narrator (Will James)]

want to get the fuck out of here.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

So if we've been able to find all this, why does it seem like the Seattle Police investigation has stalled? Do they view Steve as a suspect? Are they looking for him? We don't know. We tried to speak with Seattle police about this case. They declined. We sent them a list of 51 questions, and they didn't answer them.

[Narrator (Will James)]

What we do know is that police have known about Steve from the very beginning. A couple of days after Antonio was killed, a top city official got a text.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Mommy. Hara ran Seattle Public Utilities. She became an unofficial liaison between protesters and the city. For a city official, Mommy seemed to develop pretty close relationships with protesters at chop. She texted with them a lot, asking about their well being, complimenting them for doing a good job. One member of the Sentinels even asked her for a job in city government. But this text that Mami got, it was a photo, that photo of Steve.

[Narrator (Will James)]

We got a hold of all these texts from a public records request. The one with Steve's photo came with a message from a Sentinel known as kove.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

This is the guy that shot that kid.

[Narrator (Will James)]

This Sentinel. Cove added that Steve wasn't a part of their group. Cove seemed intent on making sure Sentinels didn't get in trouble for Antonio's death.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

In the CHOP security chats that were leaked to us, we see Sentinels worrying about being charged in connection to Antonio's killing. They make a game plan for how to get out their story that Steve wasn't one of them. Cove texted as much to Mommy.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

My people are really scared of getting accessory, even the ones, including myself, who weren't even there.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Mamihara then sent the photo of Steve to Assistant Police Chief Adrian Diaz, who texted back, quote, this is a good picture. We reached out to Mommy about these messages. She never responded.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

So now we know that three days after Antonio was killed, someone in the highest ranks of the Seattle Police Department had a photo and a description of Steve.

[Narrator (Will James)]

And that wasn't the only thing police had. We found out that in addition to that photo of a suspect, they also had the closest view of the shooting that anyone could get, short of standing right there. I went to see it for myself. Okay, so we're outside the east precinct. I see one security camera on the Seattle police precinct. Two security cameras. Three, four. When the white sheep crashed into the barricade, at chop, it crashed right outside the precious precinct. Police had abandoned, literally a few feet from the precinct wall. At least four security cameras on the east precinct looking out onto the block, looking out directly onto the scene where the shooting happened. Those cameras were there in 2020. I mean, you gotta imagine one of these cameras was in a position to see a bunch of stuff.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

We put in a request for all the video from around when the shooting happened. The police confirmed they have footage, but they wouldn't release it because their investigation is still open. There's a chance police have even more. We got records showing that the Seattle police and FBI had confidential informants in inside CHOP feeding them information. And at least one of those informants offered to be recruited by CHOP Security. We don't know if that ever actually happened.

[Narrator (Will James)]

But despite all these possible leads, we also found a reason why this case has been so hard to solve. It turns out the police investigation was compromised from the very start.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

Can you see this white SUV that is involved in this incident?

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Through court records, we got body camera footage that shows a group of police, maybe three or four officers, approaching the scene not long after the shooting.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

Charlie 70, myself and a team are moving down with a pair of binoculars to see if we can get our eyes on this vehicle and see if there's still a crime scene there.

[Narrator (Will James)]

A couple of the officers hold rifles as they make their way through the quiet pre dawn streets of Capitol Hill.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

This area is not safe, folks.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Until they're right at the edge of chop.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Then they peek around the corner of a building and watch as people mill around the crashed jeep.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

Yes, sir, I can see the vehicle with binoculars. It made it through the barricades. It's inside the borders, and it is surrounded by folks inside there. And it looks like they're digging through the vehicle.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

But when an officer radios his superior to report this, he's told, you can leave.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

Copy that. You do not need to keep that observation position. You can release from that frame.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Before the officers walk away, a protester actually approaches them and asks if they're gonna come to the crime scene.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

Yeah, we're just trying to see if you guys are trying to come in and help or what we gotta do next. Leave the car alone. Leave the car alone. Quit digging around in it. Okay. When the sun comes up, you'll hear from homicide detectives, okay. And they'll come and attempt to process that. Okay, so wait till the morning. Yep. And I, I saw you guys all digging in it, so. Yeah, yeah, we like there's people telling them not to. But then there's people trying to case it themselves. I can go down there and do that.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

The guy makes it sound like protesters are processing the scene themselves.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

Let him know this, that we will eventually have control of that vehicle, and when we do, it'll be comprehensive. I don't think any of those people want their fingerprints inside the vehicle. That's what we told him. People had gloves on.

[Narrator (Will James)]

The officer tells, calls him. Everyone's fingerprints are going to show up on the Jeep. But the protester says, don't worry, they've got gloves on.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Oh, yeah.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

Tell them to close it up.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

And leave it be. So wait till the morning. Yep. Thank you very much, sir.

[Narrator (Will James)]

An officer says that detectives will be there once the sun comes up, and that's what happens. Hours later, they show up.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Police never answered our questions about why they didn't process the scene right away. That decision could have allowed important evidence to be ruined or go missing. We'll never know. All the police will tell us is that the case remains active and ongoing. We don't know exactly what that means. They won't say how many officers are investigating or how often. We did hear once from a records officer in response to a request that the lead detective in the case works on it several times a month.

[Narrator (Will James)]

There's another potential reason why police haven't closed this case. When I talked with former Assistant Police Chief Tom Mahaffey, who oversaw the department's response to the 2020 protests, I asked him why this case hasn't been solved. He says that in homicide, cases like these, detectives need witnesses, and these investigations stall when not enough people speak up.

[Guest Commentator (Dave Davies)]

Somebody has to come forward and be willing to testify, to say, I saw this person do this act that led to this person's death. Right. Because there's even cases where we have a lot of circumstantial evidence, but it's not enough where felt that we could prosecute and get a conviction.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

So Antonio Sr. Continues to be haunted by this question of who killed his son. But it's not the only question he has.

[Narrator (Will James)]

He's not just looking for an arrest. Antonio Sr. Told us he's also looking for a broader explanation. He's trying to make sense of how his son ended up shot and killed at a protest against police violence by people acting as police.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I'm not a legal professional, but it's not legal to allow vigilantes to police their own zone. None of this should have happened, and none of those officials that were in power at that time should have allowed to let that to happen.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

That's coming up.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

Foreign.

[Sponsor Representative (Jake Kalik)]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Strawberry Me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Are you stuck in a job you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place? Are your reasons for staying really just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from Strawberry Me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your Corner and get 50% off your first coaching session at Strawberry Me.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

NPR the most compelling global stories straight to your ears. That's what we do at State of the World.

[Narrator (Will James)]

From npr, developments in Ukraine, Iran with

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

Ebola, but also how British beavers are fighting the effects of climate change.

[Narrator (Will James)]

So we said the beavers can do it, probably a fraction of the costs, certainly more sustainably.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

Listen to State of the World every

[Guest Commentator (Dave Davies)]

weekday on the NPR app or wherever

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

you get your podcasts.

[Narrator (Will James)]

GLP1s are best known as weight loss drugs, but they may also help people cut back on alcohol, cigarettes and opioids. They seem to work for many types of addiction. Maybe these effects are much broader than we previously thought. Ideas about the brain addiction and empathy.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

That's on the TED Radio Hour podcast. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator (Will James)]

When Antonio Mays Sr. Says he wants an explanation for how his son was killed, there's a question that comes to mind right away for Sidney, for me, and for our reporting partner David Gutman. It's a question that's hung over our entire investigation. It's about the role of armed security at this protest against police violence.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

It was David who finally got a chance to ask this question to someone central to setting up CHOP security, the sentinel known as Slate.

[Interviewer/Host]

Have you thought about kind of how closely this shooting kind of mirrored a police shooting?

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

That was something I very quickly became aware of, like even before the shootings really started happening. Is that like we are CHOP police

[Interviewer/Host]

essentially right away, Slate acknowledges the irony of how Antonio was killed. As they explain how this happened, they essentially say some of the same stuff police departments say when they face criticism.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

We don't have enough resources, we don't have enough training, we don't have enough manpower. And when you look at how that shooting happened, I think the difference is, is that if you had somebody who had been adequately trained, there was an expectation of professionalism. If there was an expectation of being monitored, I don't think that shooting would have happened.

[Interviewer/Host]

So, I mean, you just made a pretty good case for the police.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

I think I would say that there are aspects of what we did that law enforcement could. Could adopt the way that we managed interactions that enabled us to have a lot less escalatory situations.

[Interviewer/Host]

But, you know, just to kind of step back for a second. This whole protest is against police shootings. And a bunch of the stuff you just said is what police say, Right. If we had more resources, if we had better training.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

No, exactly. I was aware.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

The entire time. And I get into arguments a lot with people that are left leaning, that are like, abolish the police. I'm like, all right, so what are you going to replace them with? And then they're like, we're going to get social services. Okay, then what happens when someone starts shooting?

[Interviewer/Host]

Slate seems to be saying that in the absence of police, they're going to be people who step up to fill that role. And there are certainly no guarantees that they're going to be any better at it than the regular police.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

Regardless of your political belief, if you're in a position where you have a gun in your hand and there is somebody else who might have a gun in their hand, there's a pretty reasonable expectation that you're gonna fucking shoot the wrong person.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Is that what happened to Antonio? Was he a person who didn't have a gun, but was seen as a threat, just like so many victims of killings by police? If so, what does it mean that this happened at a movement fighting to prevent that very thing? We knew someone who might have the perspective to answer that. No one experienced the highs and lows of that summer in Seattle like Reshyla Levitt. She was a breakout voice for the movement, and she stuck with Chop from beginning to end.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Reshyla was there when police dismantled Chop three weeks after it started. She was one of about four dozen people who were arrested as police swept through.

[Narrator (Will James)]

And she witnessed some of Antonio's final moments. It's hard to look past the irony that Antonio's death ends up looking a lot like a police shooting or the very shootings that the movement was protesting against.

[Protester/Activist (Reshyla Levitt)]

You're not wrong that it ends up looking like exactly what we were trying to prevent, what we're fighting against. It's absolutely ironic that it happened the way that it happened and it looks the way that it looks. And it's sad. It's. It's really sad.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Does the movement bear any responsibility for what happened to him?

[Protester/Activist (Reshyla Levitt)]

I think it's such a hard question. I think in part that, yes, I think that anybody that's involved in a movement such as the one that we all experienced that summer, that year, you know, I think we all bear, you know, some shoulder of responsibility.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Rho recognizes the irony of how Antonio was killed. She says protesters have some responsibility for it in a vague way, but she can't name a single thing protesters might have done differently.

[Protester/Activist (Reshyla Levitt)]

I don't know if there's anything specific that anybody could have done leading up to that evening that would have changed anything.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Reshyla's not alone. We Talked to nearly 100 people connected with the protests in Seattle that summer, and this was the most common outlook. We heard that what happened to Antonio was tragic but unavoidable. That there's nothing to be learned from examining protesters decisions, decisions like the one to form an occupation in the first place and stay there for weeks as conditions deteriorated, even as one teenager, Lorenzo Anderson, was killed on Juneteenth, even as Antonio was killed and Robert west was permanently disabled 10 days later.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Or the decision by some to think of the camp as a war zone, to put so much emphasis on defending it from attacks and to put that defense in the hands of people who claim they had military experience and carried guns.

[Narrator (Will James)]

To Reshyla and a lot of other protesters we spoke with, none of these choices are responsible for Antonio's death. To them, it was the city that was supposed to protect Antonio and failed.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Reshaila even flew in from Texas, where she lives now, to make this argument at the trial in Antonio Sr. S wrongful death case. She says she wanted to help get justice for Antonio.

[Narrator (Will James)]

You were part of the chapter leadership.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Yes. And did your role involve communicating the city officials?

[Sponsor Representative (Jake Kalik)]

Yes.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

So she took the stand to give her version of what happened the night Antonio was killed, watching the ambulance drive away while Antonio lay dying in the back of a silver Nissan Pathfinder. But then the city's lawyers questioned her about her role that night.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Were you aware there was a gun

[Interviewer/Host]

battle between the Nissan Pathfinder and the white Jeep Cherokee?

[Narrator (Will James)]

Were you armed when you got into the car?

[Protester/Activist (Reshyla Levitt)]

No.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

Was anyone else in the car armed?

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

That's my knowledge, no.

[Narrator (Will James)]

The city's attorney pressed Reshyla on whether she was in the Pathfinder while people inside were shooting at Antonio and his friends. Rashaila maintained, as she has with me, that she was not. But you could see what the attorney might be trying to do. Send a signal to the jury that, here's a person demanding accountability from the city while not taking any herself. Antonio Sr. Had a lot of questions about the city's role in his son's death that never got aired at trial. He had imagined the former mayor and police Chief taking the stand.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Why were the mayor and the chief of police, why were they not brought forward to answer for what they did wrong?

[Narrator (Will James)]

They didn't have to testify because the judge threw out the arguments that the city was responsible for the creation of CHOP and that the creation of CHOP was responsible for Antonio's death.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

City officials have avoided having to answer for the events surrounding CHOP in other ways. In the summer of 2020, tens of thousands of text messages from the phones of the mayor at that time, Jenny Durkin, her police chief, and other officials were deleted. Included in those lost texts, potentially, was a record of their internal communications about chop. Prosecutors concluded that the messages were lost because of a perfect storm of errors and outdated, confusing policies around retaining texts. The city had to pay almost $200,000 after the Seattle Times sued over the missing texts. Our colleague David spent months going back and forth with Durkin over whether she'd talk with us about the decision she made while leading the city through that summer.

[Interviewer/Host]

Durkin told us she wasn't able to sit down for an interview. Instead, she sent us an email. In the email, she wrote that the fires and the looting in the earliest days of the protest received really set a tone, and police were freaked out. They were scared that their precinct was going to burn down. And then she said those fears led to kind of a tunnel vision that set off this chain of events that ended up leading to chop. She said police didn't have any plan at all for what to do if protesters tried to occupy the area. It wasn't, in her words, in their threat matrix. So without city officials appearing at trial or speaking with us, this one email may be all the reflection we're going to get from Seattle's government. A spokesperson for Seattle's current mayor did not respond to our request to talk.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Earlier this year, as the wrongful death case against the city went on, I felt like I was watching this trial and whatever closure it might bring slipping away from Antonio Sr. The city's attorneys kept presenting evidence that Antonio may have stolen the white Jeep. They also made a pretty strong argument that Antonio had been shot in the head and probably would have died no matter how quickly he got help from emergency responders. If they convinced the jury of this, Antonio Sr. Would lose. But then the judge ruled that whether Antonio stole the Jeep wasn't relevant. Even if Antonio was involved in the car theft, the judge said, there's no proof he was killed because of that. As the trial wrapped up, that whole argument just got thrown out.

[Interviewer/Host]

All right, thank you, everyone.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Please be Seated.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

I understand that the jury has reached a verdict.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Please deliver the verdict form to my bailiff. After nearly three weeks of deliberation.

[Interviewer/Host]

Question number one.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Was the dependent city of Seattle negligent?

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

Answer yes.

[Narrator (Will James)]

A jury agreed that the city's emergency response was negligent and delays in Antonio getting care contributed to his staff. Question number two. Was the defendant city's negligence a proximate cost of the death of Antonio May Jr? The answer is yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Question number three.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Jurors awarded Antonio Sr. And Antonio Jr's estate more than $30 million. The city is appealing. When the verdict was announced, there was a moment when Antonio Sr. Just collapsed in relief. He doubled over at his table. It was like watching more than five years of tension drain out of his body. But a little while later, speaking at a press conference, it was like some of that relief had faded.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I'm thankful for the verdict. I'm thankful for the success. But I can't say that it feels good. I can't say that it feels complete, because it doesn't, you know?

[Narrator (Will James)]

Antonio Sr. Seemed a little stunned, like he didn't know how to feel. So I asked him, what answers are you still waiting for?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I'm in the same darkness that I was in when we filed this in 2023. I don't know anything more. I don't know anything less. And it doesn't appear that they're doing anything more.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

They still haven't arrested the guy.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Antonio Sr. Couldn't shake this feeling that his son had been the one on trial.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

My son's name was unfortunately drugged through the mud for five years. I don't wish anybody to ever have to fight for their kids the way that I had to fight for mine.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Antonio Sr. Could have been talking about any of it. The protesters who have said his son was a mass shooter, a gang member doing a gang initiation, the ones who celebrated Antonio's death online. The city spending a significant part of the trial on the question of whether. Whether his son stole a car.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Omari Salisbury, the journalist who chronicled Chop more extensively than anyone else and who was born and raised in this city, said he'd seen versions of this story before.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Imagine being a young kid here under the circumstances that he died in it. The narrative is this guy ran away from home. He was hanging out with the thugs, came for a good time. You feel me? Just another nigga dead, another whatever and everything else, man. In how Seattle with his humanity switch. I don't know. Do we show some humanity or not?

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Omari thinks about this in terms of what he calls Seattle's humanity switch. He says when someone black is killed, people in the city look for reasons to turn away, to not have to care. And in this case, blaming Antonio might be how people who know something about his death justify their silence. Blaming Antonio could be the very thing protecting his killer. But that meant who Antonio really was got erased.

[Narrator (Will James)]

That's why it was a big deal when we got a glimpse of who Antonio was during the handful of days he was in Seattle. You've heard some of this tape before. It was nestled in dozens of hours of footage that Omari Salisbury shared with us from his coverage of the protests in 2020. A video of Antonio speaking to a small crowd of protesters three days before he was killed. The police, their purpose is to serve and protect, right?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

And we agree with their purpose, but we do not agree with them because of what they've been doing. They have not been serving and protecting.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Antonio is standing shoulder to shoulder with a leading activist at CHOP talking about police reform.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

The clip of Antonio talking is only about a minute long, but it's the only recording we have of Antonio in Seattle before the night of his death.

[Interviewer/Host]

And I'm tired of this.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

And at some point, we're going to fight back. We've been peaceful, but you're pushing us to the edge. And as you can see, as a black people as a whole, we have been pawned.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

We felt we needed to show Antonio Sr. This video before we put it out in the world for everyone else to see. And we also wanted to be completely sure that it really was Antonio Jr. On the screen. So we call Antonio Sr. On Zoom. He's at home in California taking care of his youngest son, a one year old. And let me know if you can hear sound.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Yeah, I can hear that.

[Narrator (Will James)]

We start playing the video and then we stop. Do you want to pause it for a sec?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Is that my point right there?

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

That's what we wanted to ask you.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Antonio Sr. Overwhelmed, moves off screen and asks for a break. He calls us back later. When Antonio came on the screen earlier today, you recognized him in a second. We didn't tell you Antonio was on the screen. You recognize him instantly, but he's all covered up. He's got a surgical mask on. He's got baseball cap. He's got that. What about him? Did you. What about him did you recognize?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I saw his hand and I see his neck. I see his skin tone. I see these features that I know because I raised him. I've watched these hands grow. You know, I've Watched my son. I raised him. I know him. I don't care what he, you know, all covered up. You understand? That's my boy.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

This is the first time we've been able to see video of Antonio at the protest itself.

[Courtroom Official/Legal Personnel]

No,

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

it's like a gift from God, just cracking the heavens wide open and letting the son come gaping through. You know, that, that, you know, he's, he's speaking his own testimony right there. You know, anything that anybody will ever tell you that knew my son will, will tell you. He is exactly that. You know, he's respectable. You know, he's, he's caring, you know, and he's supportive. And he, he says loud and clear, we're protesting peacefully. You know, that's his stance.

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

His.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

He's got a peaceful stance. And look who he's surrounded by. He went up there and identified with professionals and intellectuals. At 16 years old, with your testosterone pumping out your ears, you know, to, to identify with intellectuals like that and present yourself in a respectful way, you know, and in a, in a zone full of chaos and anarchy. And that's how he resurfaces. Oh, that's my boy.

[Narrator (Will James)]

At some point during the summer of 2020 in Seattle, a switch got turned

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

off and this, this life with all of its complexity and all of its potential was lost. In his letter to you, he said that he wanted to make you proud. And it seems, seems like as you watch this video, you felt pride.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

An overwhelming amount. An overwhelming amount. Couldn't even talk to you guys earlier. Overwhelming amount. Just like a bucket just poured on me or knocking handle automatically. It's not even close to you. Put your hands out there. No, your hands ain't gonna hold that. Your arms ain't gonna hold it. Just raped in it proud. And his letter CS says he's gonna make me proud. I was already proud. I was already proud.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

We keep us safe from. NPR's Embedded is a collaboration with the Seattle Times and KUOW.

[Narrator (Will James)]

You can see new police body cam footage from the night of the shooting on our series page. Visit npr.org chop to watch.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

The series is reported and written by me, Sidney Brownstone, David Gutman and Will James.

[Narrator (Will James)]

This episode was edited by Luis Trais and Laura Grenius with support from Katie Simon.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

This episode was produced by Dan Girma. Additional production support from Sarah Wyman and Abby Wendle. Our senior producer is Adelina Lanciannis.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Additional reporting by Omari Salisbury and Daveed Goodhertz. Research and fact checking by Danya Solomon and Miyoko Wolf.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Jimmy Keeley mastered the episode Music in

[Narrator (Will James)]

this episode by Audio Network AudioSocket, Blue Dot Sessions, Jonathan Barlow, Ramtin Arablouei and Universal Music Production. Voice acting by Danny Hensel, Charlotte Isidore, Dan Girma, Dan Rapoport, Bree Seeley, Adelina Lanciannis, and Luis Treyas.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

Our managing editor of Standards and Practices is Tony Cabin. The deputy editor for editorial Review is Nadia Lancy. Johannes Durgi and Micah Ratner provided legal support.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Special thanks to Matt Canham, Gigi Duban, Phyllis Fletcher and Ravenna Koenig for all your invaluable feedback, as well as attorney Kathy George. Thanks to Omari Salisbury and Converge Media for video recordings and crucial insights about the timeline of events surrounding the Seattle protests of 2020.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

The showrunner and senior supervising editor of Embedded is Katie Simon. Liana Simstrom is senior supervising producer, Irene Noguchi is executive producer, Yolanda Sangweni is NPR's vice president for content and Tommy Evans is NPR's editor in chief for KUOW.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Brendan Sweeney is director of new content. Our chief content officer is Marshall Eisen

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

for the Seattle Times. Laura Grenius leads our investigations team. Michelle Matassa Flores is our executive editor.

[Narrator (Will James)]

Thank you to our video team, Sam Melbourne Weaver, Nick Michael, John Poole and Sering Bista, all at npr, as well as Megan Farmer at kuow. Our website design is courtesy of Allison Hurt and Brent Jones at npr. Thank you to the digital team at the Seattle Times, Sean Martin and Frank Minna for their support. Thanks also to Michaela giannotti Boyle at KoW, as well as Adam Zissman, June Jennings, Kristen Hume, Jordan Postoma, Sergio Romano and Russell Gossett at npr. The Embedded team also includes Raina Cohen and Damiano Marchetti.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

And a big thanks to our NPR supporters. Embedded is where we do ambitious long form journalism at npr, and NPR helps keep that work going. If you'd like to email the show, you can reach [e-mail] I'm Sydnee Brownstone.

[Narrator (Will James)]

I'm Will James. I'm this is Embedded from npr. Thanks for listening.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

This week on Short wave, peptides are everywhere. Influencers claim they help you reduce inflammation, build muscle faster, age slower. And now the FDA looks poised to make peptides even easier to get. But does the science match the hype?

[CHOP Security Member (Slate)]

It might be fine in rats and

[Interviewer/Host]

mice, but it might be toxic in people.

[Reporter (Sidney Brownstone)]

What we really know about how peptides work in your body on shortwave, Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Guest Commentator (Dave Davies)]

On a new episode of Are We Doomed? We are Losing the Moon the moon is indeed drifting away and what to do?

[Narrator (Will James)]

Blow it up. Yeah, I think that's overkill.

[Guest Commentator (Dave Davies)]

The moon, why we might need it, a real plan to nuke it and new space race for it. Join me for Are We Doomed? Distributed by the NPR Network. Listen wherever you get your podcasts, support

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for NPR and the following message come from the William and Flora Hewlett foundation, investing in creative thinkers and problem solvers who help people, communities and the planet flourish. More information is [e-mail].