A Good Guy: Under Oath

Summary

Embedded: A Good Guy – Under Oath

Podcast Information

• Title: Embedded
• Host/Author: NPR
• Episode: A Good Guy: Under Oath
• Release Date: October 31, 2024
• Description: NPR's home for audio documentaries brings untold stories to light through deeply reported narrative series. Embedded explores hidden corners of the headlines to uncover what’s been sealed off, undisclosed, or overlooked—and the people at the heart of those stories.

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Overview

“A Good Guy: Under Oath” delves into the complex and contentious process of evaluating the military service of Sergeant Joshua Abate, a Marine involved in the January 6th Capitol attack. This episode explores the administrative discharge proceedings within the United States Marine Corps, the broader issue of extremism in the military ranks, and the political and personal ramifications of these evaluations.

1. The Case of Sergeant Joshua Abate

The episode opens with the background of Sergeant Joshua Abate, a third-generation Marine whose actions on January 6, 2021, led to his appearance in federal court. Instead of receiving a prison sentence, Abate was granted community service after expressing remorse. The focus of this episode shifts to the Marine Corps' determination of whether Abate remains a Marine.

Notable Quote:

• Sergeant Abate: “I have about two, two and a half weeks left in the Marine Corps, and I could have easily told my command, no, I ain’t coming up here. But my goal before I get out is to make sure I'm leaving the Marine Corps in good hands here.” [23:54]

2. Marine Corps’ Administrative Discharge Board

Abate's fate lies in the hands of an administrative discharge board at Quantico Marine Base. Unlike a court-martial, this board is tasked with an impartial hearing to decide whether Abate should continue his service or be discharged.

Process Details:

• The board consists of three Marines: two officers and a sergeant, chosen randomly.
• They review evidence, hear testimonies, and deliberate to make a decision based on the Marine Corps' strict standards.
• The prosecution argued that Abate’s actions on January 6th violated his oath to protect the Constitution and engaged in extremist activities.

Notable Quotes:

• Prosecutor: “He was chanting, carrying a flag, standing firm in the crowd as police tried to push everyone out.” [02:45]
• Marine Panelist Master Gunnery Sergeant Stephen Glue: “I have about two, two and a half weeks left in the Marine Corps, and I could have easily told my command, no, I ain't coming up here.” [23:54]

3. Defining Extremism Within the Military

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the efforts to define extremism within the military ranks. Bishop Garrison, the Senior Advisor to the Secretary of Defense for Human Capital and Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI), was tasked with creating a clear definition to identify and counteract extremist behavior among service members.

Challenges Highlighted:

• Ambiguity in Definition: Extremism is subjective, making it difficult to establish a universal standard.
• Political Backlash: Garrison faced severe attacks from right-wing media and politicians, branding him an extremist and accusing him of purging patriots from the military.
• Personal Consequences: Garrison received threats and experienced personal fear for his family's safety due to his role.

Notable Quotes:

• Bishop Garrison: “[Extremism] almost has to be like a rubric. You can't make for every instance of what may or may not be extremism. It really depends on the situation and the individual.” [11:19]
• Prosecutor: “Extremist activity, active participation. Two things go together.” [12:15]

4. Political Interference and Its Impact

Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, President Kamala Harris, and other officials attempted to navigate the politicized landscape surrounding extremism in the military. Congressman Matt Gaetz aggressively questioned Austin about hiring Garrison, accusing the Pentagon of embracing critical race theory.

Key Events:

• Congressional Hearing: Austin defended Garrison’s role amidst accusations from Gaetz, highlighting the challenges in addressing extremism without infringing on constitutional rights.
• Media Attacks: Garrison was labeled a critical race theorist and a threat to the Marine Corps' integrity, complicating the implementation of his recommendations.

Notable Quotes:

• Congressman Matt Gaetz: “I am particularly concerned that you have hired a critical race theorist to give you advice on personnel matters.” [15:09]
• Secretary Austin: “We're not here to be thought police in any way, shape or form.” [12:15]

5. The Retention Hearing: Character Witnesses and Evidence

During Abate's retention hearing, character witnesses from the Marine Corps testified to his exemplary service and dedication. These testimonies aimed to present Abate as a valued Marine beyond his actions on January 6th.

Hearings Highlights:

• Character Assessments: Former and current Marines provided strong endorsements of Abate’s character, leadership, and commitment to the Corps.
• Prosecutorial Rebuttals: The prosecution reiterated the severity of Abate’s actions, emphasizing their violation of Marine Corps' values and the Constitution.

Notable Quotes:

• Colonel Todd Phoenix: “I signed off and approved a Navy Commendation Medal form. That's a pretty high bar for me to make.” [22:11]
• Prosecutor: “Have you seen security camera footage from January 6th of Sergeant Abate? No, sir.” [22:28]

6. Panel Deliberation and Decision

After extensive testimonies and evidence presentation, the Marine panel deliberated and ultimately recommended retaining Abate in the Marine Corps by a majority vote, despite acknowledging his misconduct.

Decision Details:

• The board recognized Abate’s responsibility for his actions but weighed it against his overall service record.
• The decision sparked controversy, raising questions about accountability and the influence of character witnesses in mitigating disciplinary actions.

Notable Quotes:

• Board Decision: “The preponderance of the evidence proves all acts or omissions alleged in the notification.” [25:45]
• Recommendation: “By majority vote, the board recommends retention in the Marine Corps.” [26:00]

7. Broader Implications on Extremism in the Military

The retention of Joshua Abate, along with similar decisions for other Marines involved in the Capitol attack, highlighted the ongoing struggle within the military to address extremism without compromising its values and standards.

Key Points:

• Contrast in Outcomes: While Abate was retained, another Marine, Micah Coomer, was eventually separated due to his actions.
• Ongoing Concerns: Military leaders continue to grapple with defining and countering extremism, fearing that without clear definitions and strict enforcement, future incidents may occur.

Notable Quotes:

• General Eric Smith: “What I don't want to do is hit a fly with a sledgehammer and accuse all Marines of doing something untoward, because that's just not the case.” [33:09]
• Bishop Garrison: “My biggest fear is that it's going to take some type of major, massive incident in which people get hurt, if not worse, for the department to actually stop and take action on this.” [32:07]

8. Reflections and Future Outlook

As the episode concludes, it reflects on the lingering questions surrounding the Marine Corps’ handling of extremism and the balance between upholding standards and recognizing individual character. The case of Sergeant Abate remains unresolved, pending the decision of Navy Secretary Carlos Del Toro.

Final Thoughts:

• The episode underscores the complexity of maintaining an elite military force while addressing internal threats of extremism.
• It calls into question whether the lessons from January 6th have been adequately integrated into military policies and culture.

Notable Quotes:

• Lauren Hodges: “Almost four years after January 6, there are still some unanswered questions, like did the military miss a chance to hold some of its own people accountable for what happened that day?” [34:27]
• Tom Bowman: “If you ask the judge who sentenced Josh, the Marines who spoke up for him, even the officers who decided to keep him in the Corps, they'd say he learned his lesson. But has he?” [34:15]

Conclusion

“A Good Guy: Under Oath” provides a nuanced examination of Sergeant Joshua Abate’s case within the broader context of extremism in the military. Through detailed reporting and firsthand accounts, the episode highlights the challenges faced by the Marine Corps in enforcing its values while addressing internal threats. The outcome of Abate’s case remains a pivotal point in understanding how the military reconciles individual actions with institutional integrity.

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Credits

• Reported by Tom Bowman and Lauren Hodges.
• Edited by Luis Trayes and Andrew Sussman.
• Produced by Adelina Lanciannis.
• Additional reporting by Steve Walsh, Raina Cohen, and Rachel Faulkner.
• Music by Ramtin Arablouei.
• Special thanks to NPR’s Embedded team and sponsors.

Support Inquiries

• Subscribe to Embedded+ for early access and sponsor-free listening at plus.npr.org/embedded.

Transcript

[Kelly McEvers]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Rosetta Stone, an expert in language learning for 30 years. Right now, NPR listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership to 25 different languages for 50% off. Learn more@rosetta stone.com NPR Hey, I'm Kelly.

[Tom Bowman]

McEvers, and this is embedded from NPR. And we're back with the second and final episode of A Good Guy. In our previous episode, Sergeant Joshua Abate ended up in federal court for what he did on January 6th. And the judge in his case told him he had made her a better judge. She could have given him six months in prison, but she decided on community service instead. And now in this episode, we're going to talk about the Marines. They have to figure out if Josh is a Marine worth keeping. And let me just say that process is going to be a little different than what Josh got in court. Here's Tom Bowman and Lauren Hodges.

[Kelly McEvers]

This administrative discharge board will come to order and the reporter will note the time and date.

[Lauren Hodges]

For the record, it's December 2023. Joshua Bates, military career it's on the line. He's at the Quantico Marine Base in this nondescript government conference room.

[Kelly McEvers]

This is an administrative separation proceeding. And what this essentially decides is should Sergeant Abate remain in the United States Marine Corps?

[Tom Bowman]

He needs to sit through what the Marines call a retention hearing. Here they have to decide do we keep Josh Abate in the Marines or do we kick him out? The Marines call it separating him for his actions at the Capitol.

[Kelly McEvers]

The purpose of this administrative discharge boards is to give the respondent a full and impartial hearing and an opportunity.

[Tom Bowman]

Josh's lawyer actually gave us the audio from this retention hearing.

[Lauren Hodges]

Now, it's not like a court martial with legal consequences, but it kind of looks in some ways like a court because there's someone arguing in Josh's defense.

[Kelly McEvers]

Sergeant Abate is a third generation and exceptional Marine.

[Lauren Hodges]

And there's something like a jury, we'll call them a panel. Three Marines randomly drawn, two officers and a sergeant.

[Kelly McEvers]

The members are cautioned not to make any decisions until after hearing all the evidence, final argument and instructions on deliberation.

[Lauren Hodges]

And there are military lawyers arguing as prosecutors, they come down pretty hard on Josh.

[Kelly McEvers]

And defense is going to argue that he was remorseful, he did accept responsibility, he didn't injure anyone. And that's largely true. But when they make that argument, I want you to focus on his personal conduct that day.

[Tom Bowman]

The prosecutor has seen the same CCTV footage that we watched and starts to describe it out Loud.

[Lauren Hodges]

He took selfies.

[Kelly McEvers]

He took videos.

[Tom Bowman]

The prosecutor says Josh was chanting, carrying a flag, standing firm in the crowd as police tried to push everyone out.

[Kelly McEvers]

He placed a red MAGA hat on a statue of Martin Luther King Jr.

[Tom Bowman]

Putting that MAGA hat on the statue of MLK, holding signs such as stop the Steal.

[Lauren Hodges]

The prosecutor says that all of these actions actually violate an agreement Josh signed when he joined the Marines. What every Marine signs that explicitly forbids participation in extremist activities.

[Kelly McEvers]

He knew he had an obligation to not be a part of it.

[Lauren Hodges]

The prosecutors say he doesn't deserve to be a Marine.

[Kelly McEvers]

As Marines, we take oaths to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And he violated that oath that day.

[Lauren Hodges]

And the prosecution makes it clear what they think Josh's consequences should be.

[Kelly McEvers]

He was a willing and active participant in a violent model. Gentlemen, it's for these reasons you should separate Sergeant Abate from the Marine Corps. You should characterize his service as other than honorable.

[Lauren Hodges]

Every Marine who's discharged from the Corps wants an honorable discharge. Other than honorable is a black mark for veterans. Future employers could say, I'm not going to touch this guy.

[Tom Bowman]

Right? And in fact, the Marines were already worried about how this case made not only Josh look, but the entire Marine Corps.

[Kelly McEvers]

Three active duty U.S. marines under arrest for their roles on January 6th. Police say all of them.

[Tom Bowman]

After all, it had become national news.

[Lauren Hodges]

All three Marines worked in military intelligence.

[Kelly McEvers]

If you don't separate, it does send the message that the United States Supreme Court condones its activities.

[Tom Bowman]

The prosecution says Josh has embarrassed them.

[Kelly McEvers]

And those actions have damaged the reputation of the Marine Corps.

[Lauren Hodges]

It's a reputation the Marines have been building for decades. I beg your pardon? I never promised you a rose garden.

[Kelly McEvers]

We don't promise you a rose garden.

[Lauren Hodges]

So if you just want to be.

[Kelly McEvers]

One of the boys, stick with the boys.

[Lauren Hodges]

There's a reason the Marines have always been considered an elite fighting force.

[Kelly McEvers]

We've kept our standards high and our rank small.

[Lauren Hodges]

Today, we're still a tough club to join, a tough team to make. They often tell prospective recruits, I don't think you have what it takes.

[Kelly McEvers]

One of the few and one of the finest.

[Lauren Hodges]

The Marines are looking for a few good men.

[Tom Bowman]

This Marine Corps image is everything to them.

[Lauren Hodges]

Absolutely.

[Tom Bowman]

But post January 6th, they're having to deal with an outsized group of their own people who were out there that day.

[Lauren Hodges]

And of course, Josh, he was one of them. And the Marines need to decide if they're going to kick him out.

[Tom Bowman]

Could this be an opportunity for the Marine Corps to take a hard look at its own high standards and you.

[Lauren Hodges]

Know, will they, will they determine that Joshua Bates actions are something the Marines are willing to brush aside, or are they a symptom of a much larger problem?

[Tom Bowman]

Well before Josh faced a separation hearing, officials high up in the Pentagon were concerned about the number of active duty military and veterans who participated in January 6th.

[Lauren Hodges]

And they start asking themselves, is there extremism in the ranks and is it spreading? That's coming up on A good guy from NPR's Embedded after the break.

[Tom Bowman]

This message comes from BetterHelp. This Mental Health Awareness Month, BetterHelp is encouraging everyone to take care of their well being and break the stigma associated with mental health. BetterHelp works to make people healthy and happy because when people are taken care of, everyone benefits, including families, colleagues and communities. Visit betterhelp.com NPR to get 10% off your first month support for this podcast and the following message come from Made in Cookware President and co founder Jake Kalik shares a tool that's useful for both master and newbie griller.

[Kelly McEvers]

The craftsmanship of the carbon steel griddle enhances your grilling experience because it allows you a totally different type of grill surface that opens up the amounts of food you're able to cook. So the griddle is the perfect accessory to add to your grill and kind of widen your grilling game.

[Tom Bowman]

Learn more about Made in Cookware at M A D e I n cookware.com this message comes from Bluehost. Bluehost can make building a great website easy and offers a 30 day money back guarantee. Customize and launch your site in minutes with AI, then optimize with built in search engine tools. Get your great [e-mail] this message comes from Progressive Insurance and the Name your price tool. It helps you find car insurance options in your budget. Try it [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states states A couple of weeks after January 6, the military had a new boss. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin was sworn.

[Lauren Hodges]

In at the White House by Vice.

[Tom Bowman]

President Kamala Harris after becoming the first Black Defense Secretary. Austin is president. At his confirmation hearing, Lloyd Austin did not mention the assault on the Capitol directly, but he said he was concerned about internal threats.

[Kelly McEvers]

The job of the Department of Defense is to keep America safe from our enemies, but we can't do that if some of those enemies lie within our own ranks.

[Tom Bowman]

And one of the first things he did was to remind everyone in uniform about their oath.

[Lauren Hodges]

So Austin came up with a plan. It started with something called a stand down. And a stand down in military speak is okay, we're going to stop what we're doing, and we're just going to have a training day to remind service members about what they can't do while on active duty. Dissident activities, overtly political activities, extremist activities.

[Tom Bowman]

Josh went to one of these sessions at an auditorium on his base. It was mandatory. Did they talk about January 6th?

[Kelly McEvers]

No, not that I recall. They talked about, like, white supremacists, extremists, like the typical, like, extremist annual training kind of thing.

[Tom Bowman]

Josh says he didn't speak out about participating in January 6th because it didn't even come up. He said the whole thing was just sort of forgettable.

[Lauren Hodges]

And Josh isn't the only one to say that the reactions coming out of these training sessions and from senior officials, they were kind of mixed.

[Kelly McEvers]

What we were hearing on the ground from units was that a lot of There was just a lot of confusion.

[Lauren Hodges]

Many service members didn't understand what extremism even means.

[Kelly McEvers]

Well, you know, what is extremism? My extremism may not be your extremism.

[Tom Bowman]

That's Bishop Garrison, a West Point grad, an Iraq army vet, and a lawyer. A Austin tapped him to answer this huge question for the military. How do you define extremism? I'd love to actually get your personal opinion or definition of extremism.

[Kelly McEvers]

You, me, and all of the Joint Chiefs would love to have a clean definition of it. And the problem is the definition is it depends. It's one of those things where you kind of know it when you see it.

[Tom Bowman]

Garrison quickly became the guy that the Defense Secretary was counting on to figure out just how big of a problem extremism in the ranks really is. And the reason we want to tell you his story is because it runs parallel to Josh's story. Josh says he's not an extremist, and his time in the Capitol does not constitute extremist behavior. Bishop Garrison's work is about to challenge that. Garrison worked a really long time to come up with a definition.

[Kelly McEvers]

One of the most thorough efforts I've ever been a part of.

[Tom Bowman]

He talked to so many lawyers, experts.

[Kelly McEvers]

It went to OGC at DoD, and.

[Tom Bowman]

Then it went across Alphabet soup, if you will, of government agencies and offices.

[Kelly McEvers]

The dag, the deputy attorney general went.

[Tom Bowman]

Through a thousand pages of iteration, then.

[Kelly McEvers]

Sent it back to us. It came all the way back down, by the way.

[Tom Bowman]

This was an ethical landmine it had.

[Kelly McEvers]

To be something that was not going to infringe on a single constitutional right or issue.

[Tom Bowman]

And as complicated as the work was, it ultimately led him to a pretty simple two part test.

[Kelly McEvers]

It almost has to be like a rubric. You can't make for every instance of what may or may not be extreme sectivity. It really depends on the situation and the individual.

[Tom Bowman]

One, does the person advocate for extremist ideology?

[Kelly McEvers]

It couldn't just be that you went and read a thing because you could be a historian. You're reading Mein Kopf because you want to know more about World War II and Hitler.

[Tom Bowman]

2. Did they act upon that ideology?

[Kelly McEvers]

You have an activity that may not in and of itself be prohibited or be criminal, but it leans in that direction. It gives the commander an opportunity to say, wait, wait, wait, what is this about?

[Lauren Hodges]

So this isn't about your political views. It's all about your actions. It's inciting violence, it's taking part in.

[Kelly McEvers]

Violence, unlawful stuff, discriminatory stuff, raising money.

[Lauren Hodges]

For groups that are anti immigrant, racist, misogynist.

[Kelly McEvers]

We're not here to be thought police in any way, shape or form.

[Tom Bowman]

And Garrison thought, all right, we nailed this.

[Kelly McEvers]

Extremist activity, active participation. Two things go together.

[Tom Bowman]

So we wanted to know, based on the definition he was working on, whether Josh's actions in the Capitol qualified as extremist activity. He was up in the crowd chanting. The police were pushing him back, and he was refusing to move.

[Kelly McEvers]

Well, the last two things you mentioned would both be activities that is something that is prohibited. I would even argue it's always been prohibited.

[Tom Bowman]

Garrison's goal was to give Secretary Austin a report with recommendations on countering extremism in the ranks. He knew from the beginning that anything related to extremism could get politicized real quick. And the trouble actually began before he even got to put out his report back. When Garrison was hired to do this work, he was given a title.

[Kelly McEvers]

Senior Advisor to the Secretary of Defense for Human Capital and Diversity, Equity and.

[Tom Bowman]

Inclusion, also known as dei.

[Lauren Hodges]

And that title was typed out in a memo, a memo which the Pentagon released in the spring of 2021. It's standard stuff, three pages long, announcing that Garrison was forming this team to counter extremism in the ranks.

[Kelly McEvers]

Then, May 6, I'll never forget the.

[Lauren Hodges]

Day his phone started lighting up. He's becoming a target of attacks by the right wing.

[Kelly McEvers]

We uncovered the ideological veteran chief for the United States military, and that's Bishop Garrison.

[Tom Bowman]

Suddenly, his name was all over Fox News, the Daily Caller, Steve Bannon's podcast.

[Lauren Hodges]

So who is the Pentagon's newly minted maga Purge man?

[Kelly McEvers]

Just spend five minutes googling Bishop Garrison. This is an extremist Black Lives Matter sympathizer type guy. They're calling him the Pentagon's hatchet man. A man who believes all all Trump supporters are racists and extremists because his job is to purge patriots from the ranks. They're using January 6th as the ultimate justification. He's a lunatic. Pay attention to this guy. Keep your head on a swivel. I don't think he's up to any good.

[Lauren Hodges]

And Garrison, he starts getting these messages.

[Kelly McEvers]

On social media, and that included everything from threats against my career, my livelihood, to threats of personal violence.

[Lauren Hodges]

And he was really worried about his wife and baby back home.

[Kelly McEvers]

My wife truly was afraid of, like, someone is going to show up on our our doorstep with a long gun. Good morning. We have our full committee hearing this morning.

[Lauren Hodges]

It didn't take long for all this criticism to move from Fox News to Capitol Hill.

[Kelly McEvers]

We are honored. So I need to be joined by the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley, and by Mike McCord.

[Lauren Hodges]

About a month later, Secretary Austin appears before the House Armed Services Committee. You know, it's a budget hearing. Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz brings up something else.

[Kelly McEvers]

And it is particularly concerning to me that you have hired a critical race theorist to give you advice on personnel matters. And that person is Bishop Garrison. And I would particularly observe that on July 27, 2019, Bishop Garrison tweeted regarding former President Trump. He's dragging a lot of bad actors out into the sunlight, normalizing their actions.

[Tom Bowman]

Gates is talking about a series of old tweets that Bishop Garrison wrote back in 2019 before he joined the DoD. In one of them, he calls Trump a racist. In another, he says supporting Trump is supporting his racist beliefs.

[Kelly McEvers]

Then he replies to his own tweet with what seems to be a very ethno nationalist hashtag. Hashtag black44. Could you enlighten us as to.

[Tom Bowman]

Black44 is a reference to President Obama, the 44th president. So here we have Gates, a white congressman, talking to a black defense secretary about his black advisor, referring to a black former president, using terms like ethnonationalism.

[Kelly McEvers]

And are you concerned that while you testify publicly to our committee that the department doesn't embrace critical race theory, you have hired someone who is precisely a critical race theorist? This is the first I've ever heard Mr. Garrison be described as a critical race Theorist. So this is new. At the time, I had no idea what critical race theory is like much of America. And just trying to understand, like, you know, why, why these attacks are being lobbed. And I'm sure he reviews tweets before you hired him personally. Pardon me? Did you review his tweets before you hired him? I did not personally review his tweets.

[Lauren Hodges]

So here we have Austin defending Bishop Garrison and kind of pushing back on Congressman Gates.

[Kelly McEvers]

Is there anything you can share in just these final seconds regarding any advice he's given you? Let me just share one other thing that you brought up, Congressman, about the input that comes to me. You know, I trust my leadership from top to bottom, that they will give me fair and balanced and unvarnished input. And for you to say that people are telling me what they want to hear, what I want to hear, I get it. But I'm smart enough to know that does happen. Yeah, you know, maybe they're telling you.

[Lauren Hodges]

What you want to hear.

[Kelly McEvers]

Well, I don't know that they even know what I want. Time has expired.

[Lauren Hodges]

But despite Secretary Austin's defense Garrison, you know, he started to feel pretty alone. That's because he says the military was shrugging off these attacks against him.

[Kelly McEvers]

As one very senior official relayed to me, you know, these types of things are like quicksand. You say, like he's a good guy. Next question. And the that will go away because if you fight against it, fight against it, you're going to get pulled more into it, I think, not pushing back harder and not fighting for it. Just let it breathe more and let it breathe longer. And that's what we're even, I think to some degree today. Still seeing the remnants of that.

[Lauren Hodges]

In December 2021, Garrisons report was finally done. But by that time, the urgency at the Pentagon was gone. It would take about two years for the military to issue new rules regarding extremism in the ranks.

[Tom Bowman]

And by the time the Marine Corps had to decide whether to retain or separate Josha Bate, the horror of the Capitol attack had seemed to kind of fade among politicians in the electorate. And despite Bishop Garrison's best efforts, even in the ranks.

[Kelly McEvers]

And I'm going through my head right now and trying to decide if you're one of the Marines I want to leave in the Marine Corps.

[Tom Bowman]

That's after the break. This message comes from NPR sponsor Dana Farber Cancer Institute, where hundreds of researchers and clinicians make new discoveries inspired by the work of previous Dana Farber scientists. See why nothing is as effective against cancer as a relentless succession of breakthroughs. Learn more about their momentum. Go to danafarber.org everywhere this message comes from Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. This message comes from Warby Parker. What makes a great pair of glasses at Warby Parker? It's all the invisible extras without the extra cost, like free adjustments for life. Find your [e-mail] or visit one of their hundreds of stores around the country.

[Kelly McEvers]

The record will reflect that this board.

[Tom Bowman]

Is properly convened at Josh's retention hearing. The oath he took as a Marine was at the center of the prosecution's argument. The defense you'll see people in and out of the gallery back here had a different strategy.

[Kelly McEvers]

Right now we have Ashley Abates, so Sergeant Abates wife.

[Tom Bowman]

They begin by pointing out Josh's wife Ashley who's in the room. She's holding their six month old baby.

[Kelly McEvers]

Bringing them in here is not some sort of defense ploy to tug on heartstrings and look for some sympathetic, you know, piece to this kid case. They are here to support moral support for Sergeant Abate during this process.

[Lauren Hodges]

Josh's defense is a military lawyer, Major Justin Bradshaw, who the Marines have assigned to him and also his civilian attorney, Dave Dishley, who's also a veteran.

[Kelly McEvers]

This case is about the totality of Sergeant Abate's calling and career as a Marine. It's about this institution that he loves. And on January 6, 2021, Sergeant Bate made a bad call.

[Lauren Hodges]

So at this point in the hearing we see the choice before the panel is crystal clear. Sure it's a hearing to decide whether or not Joshua Bate stays in the Marine Corps. But it's also a hearing about how much Joshua Bate belongs in the Marine Corps.

[Kelly McEvers]

To understand who he is as a Marine, to consider him as a person beyond what happened almost three years ago.

[Tom Bowman]

So they bring out these uniform character witnesses, other Marines who've worked with Josh.

[Kelly McEvers]

These are people that know him, that can talk about his leadership, they can talk about his dedication and love for the Marine Corps. You're going to hear that he impressed the hard to impress the responding calls. Colonel Todd Phoenix, Staff Sergeant James Alexander, John Byrne Scoss iii.

[Tom Bowman]

And just like all those character letters from the civilian trial, these five current and former Marines paint this sterling portrait of Josh.

[Kelly McEvers]

I would Say that his initiative is top notch, sir. By far the most outstanding professional Marine I've ever encountered. I signed off and approved a Navy Commendation Medal form. That's a pretty high bar for me to make.

[Tom Bowman]

And then after each testimony, it's the prosecutor's turn to lay out what Josh actually did on January 6th.

[Kelly McEvers]

Have you seen security camera footage from January 6th of Sergeant Abate? No, sir.

[Tom Bowman]

All these details proving that Josh was not only in the Capitol, but an active participant.

[Kelly McEvers]

Do you know that while still in the rotunda, a line of police formed and had to push protesters out of the rotunda, one of those being Sergeant Baid. Did you know that? I did not know that, sir.

[Tom Bowman]

And the prosecutors ask each witness, do.

[Kelly McEvers]

You have an opinion about whether he should be separated or retained in the Marine Corps?

[Tom Bowman]

The witnesses, who together total more than 80 years in the US Marine Corps.

[Kelly McEvers]

Say, gentlemen, I wouldn't be here if somebody didn't give me a second chance, a chance to clear their name. Probably feels bad about what he did, probably has had a chance to rethink it, is truly sorry for what he did. If he can pull off what I know he is capable of as a. As a man, as a Marine, as a father, he will show that growth can occur and that he can overcome even something trivial as this.

[Tom Bowman]

Trivial. Was that really all they thought of? Joshua Bates actions on January 6th? At the end of the hearing, just before closing statements, one of the panelists speaks up. This is one of the three Marines deciding Josh's fate. Master Gunnery Sergeant Stephen Glue.

[Kelly McEvers]

I have about two. Two and a half weeks left in the Marine Corps, and I could have easily told my command, no, I ain't coming up here. But my goal before I get out is to make sure I'm leaving the Marine Corps in good hands here.

[Tom Bowman]

Glue is sort of interrupting the proceedings in order to speak directly to Josh.

[Kelly McEvers]

And I'm going through my head right now and trying to decide if you are one of the Marines I want to leave in the Marine Corps. Your judgment on this day failed you, and I hope you learned that. So I hope this end of this works out in your favor. Thank you. I'm sorry.

[Tom Bowman]

I hope this works out in your favor, he said. We reached out to all three of the panelists, and Glue was the only one who agreed to talk to us. We wanted to ask him why, after all the evidence he heard, he still went out of his way to tell Josh and the whole room before the hearing was even over that he was planning to side with him.

[Kelly McEvers]

I just Seen a lot of him in me. And then, you know, just seeing his family there, his baby there, just made me think, you know, about my family and what they would have been going through if I was in Josh's position. Anything else, John? Yes, sir. So the board is closed for deliberation at 16:05 on 6 December.

[Tom Bowman]

After closing statements, the three marine panel deciding Josh's fate is dismissed to deliberate. An hour later, they come back to read their decision.

[Kelly McEvers]

On 6th December, I will announce the findings and recommendations of board by reading from the worksheet. Preponderance of the evidence proves all acts or omissions alleged in the notification.

[Tom Bowman]

The board acknowledges that Josh was responsible for everything the Marine Corps was accusing him of doing. A quote, unquote serious offense of misconduct.

[Lauren Hodges]

And you would think that means a discharge for Josh, maybe even one that's other than honorable.

[Kelly McEvers]

But by majority vote, the board recommends retention in the Marine Corps.

[Lauren Hodges]

They vote to keep him.

[Kelly McEvers]

Board adjourned at 17:15. Six December. Thanks, Spirit.

[Lauren Hodges]

The same thing happened with Dodge Helenan and Micah Coomer, the two other Marines who went inside the Capitol that day with Josh. They both went through their own separation hearings, and in all three cases, the officers decided to retain them. When we first learned that the panel voted to retain Joshua Bateman, we assumed it was mostly Josh's character witnesses that swayed them in his favor. And then we obtained the entire audio recording of the proceedings and listened to all four and a half hours. We were stunned when we heard something else in this recording. It's something we haven't played for you yet.

[Tom Bowman]

It reminded us of the roadblocks the military faced as it tried to define extremism.

[Kelly McEvers]

Is your portrayal of the events of January 6th positive, negative, or are you indifferent about it?

[Lauren Hodges]

At the beginning of the hearing, Joshua's civilian lawyer asked all three of the Marines deciding his case, how do you feel about January 6th?

[Kelly McEvers]

Depending on what news sources you look at, you get a different narrative, different perception.

[Lauren Hodges]

That's Lieutenant Colonel Sean Foley, a mid level officer and the highest ranking one on the panel. He said, well, I'm kind of indifferent to it because, you know, it kind of depends which TV station you were watching. It was kind of a tale of two cities.

[Kelly McEvers]

A tale of two cities. And at this point, to be honest, tired of hearing about it three years later.

[Lauren Hodges]

You know what? It was three years ago. So I don't think it's that much of a big deal, sir.

[Kelly McEvers]

I wasn't there. I can't say I know exactly what happened there.

[Lauren Hodges]

That's Master Gunnery Sergeant Stephen Glue. He's the one who addressed Josh during the hearing. He said he was also indifferent to January 6th.

[Kelly McEvers]

So I'm indifferent about what happened that day.

[Lauren Hodges]

Now, the captain, Spencer Morris, a mid level officer, he had a different take.

[Kelly McEvers]

I'll be honest and say that the video footage I've seen of the day specifically focused on some of the more violent parts of the January 6th. Definitely gives me a negative perception of how things transpired.

[Tom Bowman]

But still, two out of the three panelists say that they're indifferent to the attack on the Capitol. And Josh says he gets it.

[Kelly McEvers]

It's been pounded and pounded and pounded for three years at that point that I think people just got numb to it. At a certain point, they stopped caring about it.

[Lauren Hodges]

Are you tired of hearing about it?

[Kelly McEvers]

I would say I'm tired of. No, I can't say that I'm tired about hearing about it just because I know there are people like me out there who should get their story out too. And they're not extremists. They just got caught up in the moment and now they're in a similar situation to me. So I think I'll be tired of hearing about it once everyone has had the chance to show their side of the story, if they're similar boat to me.

[Tom Bowman]

Josh's case is now at the desk of the Navy Secretary, Carlos Del Toro, where it's been sitting for about 10 months. He will ultimately decide whether Josh stays or goes.

[Lauren Hodges]

For now, Josh is kind of stuck in Marine purgatory, doing some standard office work, awaiting his fate. He's the only one of his friends left.

[Kelly McEvers]

He.

[Lauren Hodges]

Even though the Marine panel decided to keep Corporal Micah Coomer and Sergeant Dodge Hellinan in the Marine Corps, a top general didn't agree. He later kicked Coomer out for his actions. Hellinan, he ran out his enlistment. We last talked to Josh around the time when it was becoming pretty clear Trump was going to win the Republican primaries.

[Tom Bowman]

Trump himself still refuses to accept the last election results, and he won't commit to accepting the results of this one either.

[Lauren Hodges]

So I had to know, could Donald Trump still get Josh's vote? Remember, Josh told the court that Trump's lies are incredibly harmful to our democracy and our unity as a nation. What are your thoughts about him now?

[Kelly McEvers]

I still like Trump. There's no bad taste in my mouth about Trump. I think I care more so about other things now than just voting for Trump to get a pardon, you know, so I don't know, I might vote for Trump, I might not. It just depends. Once it's time for the election, I'll have to actually sit down and make my decision. But right now, I'm still open.

[Tom Bowman]

Since that conversation with Josh, Trump has doubled down on his defense of January 6, three weeks before the election. He called it a day of love. We reach back out to Josh to ask one final time who he was going to vote for. But through his lawyer, Josh declined any more interviews with us.

[Lauren Hodges]

You know, I talked to some pretty high level sources in the military, anonymously, both active duty and retired, about the election. And they're worried about political violence happening again, no matter who wins in November, but particularly if Trump loses.

[Tom Bowman]

Bishop Garrison left the department in 2022, but as he looks back on all the work he did, he's still really worried about the ongoing threat of extremism in the military.

[Kelly McEvers]

My biggest fear is that it's going to take some type of major, massive incident in which people get hurt, if not worse, for the department to actually stop and take action on this.

[Tom Bowman]

But isn't that exactly what January 6th was?

[Lauren Hodges]

As far as we can tell, the military still doesn't know if they have an extremism problem. They just don't have the data. Now, there are recent efforts to try to curb extremist behavior. The army and Navy posted new guidelines earlier this year. The Marines did, too.

[Tom Bowman]

In September, the Marine Corps outlined some new reporting instructions. If a Marine suspects a fellow Marine of extremist activity, they must report it within one to three days to a senior officer, and that might trigger an investigation.

[Lauren Hodges]

I caught up with the top Marine officer, General Eric Smith, just a few weeks ago. General Tom Bowman with npr. The election is about a month. He said it's a minuscule percentage of the Marines who engage in inappropriate behavior.

[Kelly McEvers]

What I don't want to do is hit a fly with a sledgehammer and accuse all Marines of doing something untoward, because that's just not the case.

[Lauren Hodges]

I also asked him about the lopsided number of Marines, active duty and veteran, who took part in the Capitol attack.

[Kelly McEvers]

Those individuals who participated in the January 6 events, those weren't Marines. They were individuals who were masquerading as Marines.

[Tom Bowman]

And he called the attack on the Capitol an anomaly. That was something we'd heard before.

[Kelly McEvers]

The events of January 6th were an anomaly.

[Tom Bowman]

This is Josh's defense lawyer talking in his Marine separation hearing.

[Kelly McEvers]

The odds that another event like January 6th is going to occur in this country in the next hundred years in this country, I think is very slim. I think we can all agree to that. The odds that Sergeant Abate would be a part of that less than a fraction of a percentage.

[Tom Bowman]

If you ask the judge who sentenced Josh, the Marines who spoke up for him, even the officers who decided to keep him in the Corps, they'd say he learned his lesson. But has he?

[Lauren Hodges]

Almost four years after January 6, there are still some unanswered questions, like did the military miss a chance to hold some of its own own people accountable for what happened that day?

[Tom Bowman]

And if it happens again, are we just going to let them convince us that deep down they're actually all good guys?

[Lauren Hodges]

A Good Guy from Embedded is a collaboration with NPR's national security team. This series was reported by me and Lauren Hodges. It was edited by Luis Trayes and Andrew Sussman. It was produced by Adelina Lanciannis. Additional reporting and production from Steve Walsh, Raina Cohen and Rachel Faulkner. White Gilly Moon mastered the episode. Fact checking by Will Chase Episode art by Luke Medina Leanna Simstrom is our supervising Senior producer, Katie Simon is our supervising Editor and Irene Noguchi is our Executive Producer. Colin Campbell is our Senior Vice President of Podcasting. The Embedded team also includes Dan Girma, Arianna Lee, Andrew Mambo and Abby Wendel. Thanks to our Managing Editor of Standards and Practices, Tony Cavan, and to Nina Polchowski, Johannes Durgi and Micah Ratner for legal support. Music by Ramtin Arablouei. Special thanks to Hannah Alam, Tom Dreisbeck, Barbara Van Werkel, Odette Youssef, Emily Barakas, Jordan Postma of NPR's marketing department and June Jennings and Ben Fishel of NPR Communications. And a big thanks to our Embedded plus supporters. Embedded is where we do ambitious long form journalism at NPR and and Embedded plus helps us keep that work going. Supporters also get to listen to every Embedded series sponsor free and every episode early. Sign [e-mail] embedded I'm Tom Bowman. This is embedded from NPR. Thanks.

[Kelly McEvers]

Foreign support for this podcast and the following message come from E Trade from Morgan Stanley With E Trade you can dive into the market with easy to use tools, $0 commissions and a wide range of investments. And now there's even more to love. Get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions.

[Lauren Hodges]

Open an account and get up to.

[Kelly McEvers]

$1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley. Support for the following message comes from.

[Tom Bowman]

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[Kelly McEvers]

Paint with convenient locations like your local paint store. Find a paint drop off site near [e-mail] this message comes from NPR sponsor Viori. Featuring the core short receive 20% off your first purchase on any U.S. orders over $75 and free [e-mail] NPR exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.