Podcast Summary: Embedded – Alternate Realities: Double or Nothing

Host: Kelly McEvers
Reporter: Zach Mack
Guest contributor: Pat Ryan
Original Air Date: December 23, 2025

Episode Overview

This follow-up episode revisits Zach Mack's deeply personal journey exploring his father's immersion in conspiracy theories. Picking up after the original "Alternate Realities" series, Zach updates listeners on the impact the project had on his family and recounts a new round of bets with his dad about which conspiracy predictions would bear out. Facing stubborn ground, Zach pursues a different approach — inspired by experts on cult deprogramming — that focuses less on being right and more on connection, understanding, and indirect change. Through candid conversations, movie nights, and new interventions, Zach and his father strive to move past old patterns toward a fragile hope for mutual understanding and family healing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recapping the Stakes: The Family Fallout

• The Original Bet: Zach accepted a bet from his father to see if ten conspiracy predictions would come true. His father lost, but refused to admit fault.
• Listener Curiosity: The series' release triggered many questions: "How's your family doing and what did they think when they listened?" (01:22)
• Family Reflections:
  • Zach’s mother found affirmation in her decisions.
  • His sister felt seen in her pain ("It was like condensing down a couple of years of pain and situation into those three hours." — Zach's sister, 01:57)
  • Zach’s father expressed mixed emotions — impressed with himself at times but ultimately acknowledging the real and emotional nature of the podcast.

2. Groundhog Day: The Second Bet

• Dad’s Proposal: Zach’s father wants another round: "Hey, I gotta win my money back, right?" — Dad (03:21)
• Zach’s Fatigue: "I feel like I'm having a stroke right now, and this is like some crazy deja vu. Like, we've done this. We know how this ends." — Zach (03:51)
• New Conditions: If dad lost again, Zach would choose his media sources for a year; if dad won, he’d pick Zach’s.

3. When Being Right Doesn’t Help: Re-examining Approach

• Listener Outreach: Zach received hundreds of emails from others struggling with similar family divides, but struggled to offer solutions: "I failed to pull my dad out, so I didn't exactly have the answers they were looking for." (05:03)
• Expert Consult — Pat Ryan:
  • Pat, an expert in cult exit counseling, explains that breakthroughs almost never result from confrontation or direct debunking.
  • He advocates “third party processing”: indirect, nonjudgmental conversations that allow someone to reflect on their beliefs without direct challenge.
  • "You want to leave the person with that information and not try to make a sale. ... The idea is to create a safe place for someone to come out to where there’s no judgment, no arguments. No, I was right, you were wrong. Where someone’s dignity could be preserved." — Pat Ryan (12:12)

4. The Cost of Intervention

• Reconsidering Motivation: Pat questions whether Zach is helping or hurting:
  • "He’s not asking for you to change him... Intervention, by its nature, is interfering with someone’s life without their permission." — Pat Ryan (15:29)
• Family Costs:
  • Divorce is under way. Zach ponders, “Am I being helpful?” or risking more harm.
  • Pat stresses: "We want to make sure that intervening in his life is not going to make the situation worse." (16:48)

5. Testing New Strategies: Movie Night & Third-Party Reflection

• Movie as Mediator: Zach invites his dad to watch "Begonia," a film echoing conspiracy-driven thinking, to open indirect dialogue.
• Finding Common Ground:
  • They discuss echoes of their own disagreements through the film, allowing for less defensive exchanges.
  • Zach prompts shared reflection: "Do you believe we're destroying the planet?" (22:11)
  • Dad agrees, showing overlap in values despite wildly different worldviews.

6. Humanizing Uncertainty: Sharing Irrational Beliefs

• Mutual Vulnerability: Zach shares a sports conspiracy theory he half-believes, inviting his father (and himself) to reflect on the comfort of certainty.
• Spiritual Stakes Discussed:
  • Dad: "I think it has eternal consequences." (25:16)
  • Zach: "For you there's larger stakes, but ... you're not going to get stopped at the gates of heaven for that one." (25:53)
  • Dad admits some beliefs are “low stakes,” showing new openness.

7. A Shift in Tone and Relationship

• From Combat to Curiosity: By avoiding head-to-head debates and focusing on curiosity, rapport returns.
• Moving Past the Need to Convince:
  • "I think I also gave up the idea of trying to convince you of anything. Just trying to expose you to a different school of thought." — Dad (31:14)

8. Resolution: The Result of the Second Bet

• Outcome: Dad gets 1 of 10 predictions right (by technicality); Zach wins again, but they're both ready to move on from betting.
• A New Understanding: They agree sharing movies and conversations may be more productive than controlling media diets.
• Hope for the Future: "For the first time in a long time I can see a path." — Zach (31:57)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I felt like we were stuck in the movie Groundhog Day, where every year I wake up to the same nonsense." — Zach Mack (03:14)
• "You want the person to be able to see themselves in it. The idea is to create a safe place for someone to come out to where there's no judgment, no arguments. No, I was right, you were wrong. Where someone's dignity could be preserved." — Pat Ryan (12:25)
• "Swallowing my ego, setting aside my own beliefs, that's hard." — Zach Mack (15:15)
• "I sort of think at this point to bring my father into reality might be incredibly destabilizing for him." — Zach Mack (16:22)
• "I love the fact that we're even having this conversation ... I'm going to get emotional. ... Just brings tears to my eyes. In a good way? In a very good way." — Zach's Dad (27:51–28:09)
• "It felt like dad and I were flowing again, building rapport." — Zach Mack (22:44)
• "We have literally fought about these exact ideas for years, and now suddenly he wasn't clinging to them as tightly anymore. And I actually felt hopeful." — Zach Mack (26:40)
• "I think we figured out how to talk to each other a little bit more. A little better, a little more productively." — Zach Mack (30:40)

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:18–01:22 | Series recap and Zach’s family’s initial reactions | | 02:14–05:23 | The proposal for a second conspiracy theory bet | | 08:14–13:58 | Consultation with cult and intervention expert Pat Ryan | | 15:29–17:05 | Reconsidering motivation and consequences of trying to intervene | | 19:35–21:45 | Using movies as an indirect way to discuss difficult beliefs | | 22:11–24:50 | Conversations about irrational beliefs and spiritual stakes | | 27:31–28:35 | Father growing emotional as boundaries fall and dialogue deepens | | 29:37–31:30 | Bet outcome, resolution, and new direction for their relationship |

Conclusion

While Zach’s quest to extricate his father from conspiracy theories didn’t produce a miraculous conversion, the journey reshaped their relationship. By surrendering the need to “win” and using indirect dialogue, Zach and his father were finally able to meet on common ground. The episode closes with hope: though there’s no universal remedy for ideological divides, persistent curiosity, shared experiences, and respect for each other's humanity can open a fragile but real path forward.

For listeners: Even if you haven’t heard the previous series or lived through Zach's struggle yourself, this episode is a powerful reflection on empathy, family, and the slow work of bridging divides.