Alternate Realities: Down the Rabbit Hole

Summary

Embedded: Alternate Realities – Episode 2: Down the Rabbit Hole

Release Date: February 21, 2025

Overview

In the second installment of NPR’s Embedded series, Alternate Realities: Down the Rabbit Hole, host Zach Mak delves deep into his strained relationship with his father, exploring how entrenched conspiracy theories have led to familial discord. This episode navigates the complexities of belief, identity, and the challenges of reconnecting amidst conflicting worldviews.

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A Year-Long Experiment: The Bet

Zach Mak opens the episode by recounting a year-long experiment he undertook with his father—a bet worth $10,000 that centered around the validity of his father’s conspiracy-driven predictions. As Zach states, “[...] the bet wasn't just about proving him wrong or winning $10,000. It was about changing his mind” (00:50), highlighting the personal stakes involved beyond financial gain.

The Genesis of Belief

As the year progresses without any of the predicted events materializing—such as an EMP takedown of the grid or political treasons—Zach reflects on the underlying question: “Why does my father hold these beliefs?” (01:29). This introspection leads him to investigate his father’s social circle to uncover the roots of his conspiracy theories.

Voices from the Past: Friends and Family

Zach interviews several of his father's longtime friends to gain insight into his transformation:

• Chuck, a friend from the Midwest, reminisces about a more liberal and carefree version of Zach’s father, noting a shift in his demeanor over the decades (05:27).

• Paul, another close friend, attends Christian retreats with Zach’s father and possibly serves as a catalyst for his conspiratorial mindset. Paul admits that challenging his beliefs could "cause a rift in our relationship" (06:39).

• John, a neighbor, discusses the alarming extent of Zach’s father's theories, which he likens to being influenced by “too many of the X Files” (07:11).

• Marty, a family friend, stands out as a rare voice of reason, often pushing back against Zach’s father’s extreme views (07:47).

These interactions reveal a man increasingly isolated by his convictions, much like Zach’s grandfather, whose staunch opposition to vaccines and distrust of medical institutions led to his personal and professional downfall (09:19).

Historical Echoes: The Grandfather’s Legacy

Zach draws parallels between his father and grandfather, both of whom exhibited stubbornness and a deep-seated distrust of institutions. The grandfather's eventual mental health decline and tragic death at the age of 68 underscore the perilous path of unyielding belief systems (09:32, 10:02).

Expert Insights: Understanding Conspiracy Theories

To comprehend his father’s mindset, Zach consults with experts like Professor Joseph Uszynski and Dr. Bradley Onishi:

• Professor Joseph Uszynski emphasizes that conspiracy beliefs are deeply intertwined with personal identity, making simple fact-checking ineffective (12:37, 13:03). He explains, “If you correct their wrong beliefs in something [...] it’s not going to change that” (13:21).

• Dr. Bradley Onishi discusses how extremist rhetoric casts believers as heroes in a cosmic battle, providing a sense of transcendence and purpose (14:08, 14:45).

These insights illustrate that combating conspiracy theories requires addressing the underlying emotional and identity needs they fulfill.

The Strain on Family: Breaking Points

As the year-end approaches without any fulfillment of the father’s predictions, familial tensions reach a boiling point:

• Zach’s mother begins to distance herself, sleeping in a separate bedroom after being deeply hurt by her husband's endorsement of false claims about the January 6th events (25:40).

• His sister chooses to avoid holiday gatherings for the third consecutive year due to ongoing conflicts over her sexuality and the pervasive mistrust within the family (26:13).

Zach recounts a pivotal moment when his father presents him with a heartfelt anniversary card, expressing love for Zach and his sister but failing to reconcile their differences: “You love her. You. You say you accept her, but you don't accept her” (24:30).

Final Conversations and Reflections

In the episode's climax, Zach engages in a transformative conversation with his father, who surprisingly articulates advice he wishes he could embrace himself:

“Help me understand why you believe what you believe. [...] If you can't let go of those beliefs, how can you make room for your wife's, your son's, your daughter's belief without it becoming a stumbling block and you having a relationship with them?” (31:23)

This moment signifies a potential breakthrough, showcasing the father’s latent desire to bridge the divide, albeit tinged with skepticism about lasting change.

Conclusion: An Ongoing Struggle

As the episode concludes, Zach reflects on the emotional toll of documenting his family’s unraveling. Despite the heartbreak and the seeming insurmountability of changing his father’s beliefs, there remains a glimmer of hope for understanding and reconciliation. The episode leaves listeners contemplating the intricate dance between belief, identity, and the bonds of family.

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Notable Quotes

• Zach Mak: “If you could just adjust that thinking enough so that it didn't cause you the pain and the anguish that your current belief causes you.” (31:23)

• Paul (Friend): “I don't think it's for you to persuade. It's for, you know, the stuff not to come to pass.” (08:13)

• Joseph Uszynski: “It's a manifestation of something bigger and stronger underneath. And perhaps it's a reflection of their personal identity.” (13:03)

• Dr. Bradley Onishi: “It draws someone like your dad into the belief that they're part of something big… It invites them into a cosmic battle.” (14:43)

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Key Takeaways

• Intergenerational Patterns: Zach’s exploration reveals how deeply ingrained beliefs can echo through generations, affecting family dynamics and personal identities.

• The Complexity of Belief Change: Experts highlight that confronting conspiracy theories requires more than presenting facts; it necessitates addressing emotional and identity-related needs.

• The Cost of Polarization: The episode underscores the painful fissures that extreme beliefs can create within families, often leading to isolation and estrangement.

• Hope in Communication: Despite the bleakness, moments of genuine dialogue suggest that understanding and empathy remain possible pathways to healing.

Final Thoughts

Alternate Realities: Down the Rabbit Hole serves as a poignant examination of the personal impacts of conspiracy theories, offering listeners a nuanced view of the struggles faced by families navigating ideological divides. Through heartfelt storytelling and expert analysis, Zach Mak paints a compelling picture of the quest for truth and connection in an increasingly polarized world.

Transcript

[Zach Mak]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Rosetta Stone, an expert in language learning for 30 years. Right now, NPR listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership to 25 different languages for 50% off. Learn [e-mail] NPR Hey, I'm Kelly McEvers.

[Dad]

And you're listening to episode two of Embedded's Alternate Realities series. If you haven't listened to episode one, please go back to the feed and start there. One more thing before we get started. This episode contains explicit language. Here's episode two. So Mark Twain had a famous quote. He said, if voting really mattered, they wouldn't let us do it.

[Zach Mak]

That's.

[Dad]

Isn't that great?

[Zach Mak]

I mean, it's a good quote. After my dad and I started this year long experiment, this bet, he and I began talking a lot more. But the more we talked, the harder both of us clung to the idea that only one of us was right. Can I read you a Mark Twain quote that I was thinking about just this weekend?

[Dad]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Zach Mak]

And I was thinking about it in relationship to conspiracy theorists. Mark Twain said this. It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled.

[Dad]

Yeah, I would agree that. I would agree with that 100%.

[Zach Mak]

Herein lies my conflict with you. I gotta convince you that you.

[Dad]

Exactly. Mine with you. Mine with you. Right. We're on the. We're on the same page here.

[Zach Mak]

Funny thing about that quote my dad just used. I found out later that it's fake. Mark Twain never actually said that. But even funnier is the quote that I used as a rebuttal. Well, Mark Twain never said that either. Proof. We could both be wrong. I guess in the end, misinformation comes for us all. But hey, that's why we have fact checkers. A couple of months into our bet and I was still feeling good about things. Still no EMP device used to take down the grid. No sign of Obama, Pelosi, Biden, or the Clintons being tried for treason. The governor and mayor of New York still had their jobs. And no sign of martial law being imposed anywhere. To be honest, I wasn't worried about the outcome of these predictions. For me, the bet wasn't just about proving him wrong or winning $10,000. It was about changing his mind. And that's the part I was worried about, because I really didn't understand why my father believed what he believed. In fact, I wasn't sure I understood him much at all. Lately, I've been thinking back to this argument I had with my dad years ago I was home visiting my parents and we went to one of our favorite restaurants. I can't remember the specifics about what he and I were arguing about, but it had to have been about politics. I mostly remember how it felt because it got contentious and it ended with my father getting the last word. He said, well, you don't really know me. That stopped me dead in my tracks because despite 30 plus years of history, I wondered if he might be right. Maybe I didn't really know him. And so if I had any hope of changing his mind, I was going to need to learn a lot more about him and figure out why he seemed so prepared to give up so much, including his own family. So last year that's what I set out to do. From NPR's Embedded, I'm Zach Mak and this is Alternate Realities. This message comes from bluehost. Bluehost can make building a great website easy and offers a 30 day money back guarantee. Customize and launch your site in minutes with AI, then optimize with built in search engine tools.

[Dad]

Get your great [e-mail] this message comes from Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. This message comes from Progressive Insurance and the name your price tool. It helps you find car insurance options in your budget. Try it [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. This message comes from BetterHelp. This Mental Health Awareness Month. BetterHelp is encouraging everyone to take care of their well being and break the stigma associated with mental health. BetterHelp works to make people healthy and happy because when people are taken care of, everyone benefits and including families, colleagues and communities. Visit betterhelp.com NPR to get 10% off your first month.

[Zach Mak]

In order to get to know my father, one of the first places I thought to start was with the people around him. I reached out to four of his closest friends to get their take. Curious if they also thought he had a problem with reality. You talked to my dad the other day.

[Dad]

We had an interesting conversation. He did share with me his prophecies.

[Zach Mak]

This is Chuck. He's my father's oldest friend. They've known each other over 40 years. Back when dad was a very different guy.

[Dad]

Your father had Frosted hair. When I first met him, he was a fun guy and pretty liberal and smoked pot more than I did. And he lived with this drag queen, and so, you know, there was a wild kind of party atmosphere around him.

[Zach Mak]

Chuck is, like, the one friend my dad has held onto from his old life in the Midwest. They've been living apart since the 80s, yet they've remained close, despite being political opposites.

[Dad]

I always take your dad in small doses. Maybe part of the reason I don't reach out as much is because I am afraid that we get to a point where it would be like drawing a line in the sand and I.

[Zach Mak]

Wouldn'T be able to cross it.

[Dad]

You know, deep down in my heart, I would love to understand it, and I don't.

[Zach Mak]

Another friend I reached out to was a guy named Paul. He's been one of my dad's closest friends over the past decade. They'd go to church together, even attend Christian retreats together. My working theory was that Paul might have been ground zero for a lot of my dad's conspiracies. Stuff like globalist cabals and believing that Biden has multiple body doubles. I'm not sure where he's getting most.

[Dad]

Of his information from, and it's been rather alarming. And I've been in the same room where he's shown me, like, is that Biden or not?

[Zach Mak]

And I'm like, I just don't see it. I'm not seeing what you're seeing. What do you think that exchange would go like if you. If you sort of started to push back on some of those ideas that you found outlandish?

[Dad]

I think it would cause a rift in our relationship, and it has.

[Zach Mak]

As dad tells it, Paul was not ground zero.

[Dad]

I've actually exposed him to more truth and more reality than he's wanted to deal with.

[Zach Mak]

Dad told me that the person he speaks to the most about these theories is his friend and neighbor, John. So I spoke to him, too. When he talks about, hey, I think there's going to be a martial law. I think there's going to be an EMP device that wipes out all communication. Or are you like, he's been watching.

[Dad]

Too many of the X Files? It surprised me that he had fallen down a rabbit hole.

[Zach Mak]

What could do that to him? And then there's Marty. He's known my parents for 40 years. He's basically family. He actually held me and dropped me the week I was born. And of all my father's friends, he might be the only one who really pushes back.

[Dad]

I've asked him in a non offensive way how it is that he's come to accept these line of thinking.

[Zach Mak]

Do you think I can kind of persuade him out of some of this stuff?

[Dad]

I don't think it's for you to persuade. It's for, you know, the stuff not to come to pass. There's a lot of conspiracy theory groups that expected the end of the world to have come and. And they've just pushed the date back.

[Zach Mak]

I'll admit I was worried about this happening, dad pushing the date back. But I was hoping that losing the bet would be enough to sway him.

[Dad]

What he may learn is not to be so gung ho. He should always keep open the possibility that this theory, you know, his belief is wrong.

[Zach Mak]

Dad's friends clearly thought he was going the wrong way. He was mostly on his own with these beliefs. And I had seen this sort of thing play out before in the family. Some parallels with what happened to his father, my grandfather. Do you think your dad was. I don't know. How would you describe him? Would you describe him as stubborn?

[Dad]

Oh, yeah, stubborn. Very opinionated. Hard headed at times. Yeah. Very embittered against the medical society. They literally ran him out of business.

[Zach Mak]

My grandfather was a chiropractor. Like dad, he was also against vaccines. He believed in what he called the body's natural immunities. So much so that he held my father out of school in the 60s due to a new vaccine mandate.

[Dad]

At the time, I kept telling my dad and my mom, I just want to go to school.

[Zach Mak]

My grandfather was living in Ohio with his wife and six kids and he had his own business. That is until the Ohio State Medical Board cracked down on him.

[Dad]

And so they literally threw my dad in jail for a couple of days for practicing without a license. I was like 13 or 14 years old.

[Zach Mak]

After my grandfather's business dissolved, dad says he was never able to fully recover.

[Dad]

He became so depressed that he literally couldn't get out of bed for like six months. And he was never the same man that literally broke him.

[Zach Mak]

My grandfather was a tall and thin man. And one of the things I remember most about him is this one time when he came to visit us, his body had just completely changed. He had gained over 100 pounds in a short amount of time. He was going through some mental health issues that the family never fully understood. And it was affecting his weight and his ability to sleep. It's hard to tell because he would never see a doctor, but I remember he'd just start falling asleep a lot he would be in the middle of a conversation sometimes, or even at dinner, and he'd just start snoring. Minutes later, he'd abruptly wake up and carry on as if nothing happened. This also began to happen while he was driving. My grandpa got into a number of car accidents. He totaled several cars and nearly killed my grandma. He refused to stop driving and even went to a neighboring state to get a driver's license. After his was taken away, he refused to admit anything was wrong. The family tried talking to him. So did my father, several times. And when that didn't work, dad tried something else.

[Dad]

I wrote him a long letter. I wrote him like a two or three page letter and mailed it to him. And I said, you know, Dad, I love you. I want the best for you. You know, I'm not trying to say anything horrible or damaging or critical about you, but your whole family is concerned about you. Can't you see this? Can you recognize that we all would like to see you live to a ripe old age? Because I said, if you continue on this path, I don't know when you're going to die, but I know you're going to die.

[Zach Mak]

Not long after this, When I was 9 or 10 years old, my parents called my sister and me into the kitchen to tell us something. But before they said anything, I already knew my grandfather was dead. They told us he had fallen asleep while driving and that his vehicle veered off the road. When I think about my grandfather, I think about how what caused his death may have been stubbornness, a refusal to listen to those around him. I don't think my father's in imminent physical danger, but I am worried about him. Through my grandfather's story, I see a direct correlation with his stubbornness, his deep distrust in institutions, and the attitude that no matter what, he knows best. How can I break the cycle? It's a question that made me turn to professionals.

[Dad]

You could probably debunk one of your dad's ideas, one of his conspiracy theories, but you're just playing whack a mole.

[Zach Mak]

This is Joseph Uszynski, a professor at the University of Miami. He's one of the foremost political scientists studying conspiracy theories.

[Dad]

He's going to have 500 others, right? It's not until you get under the hood and start dealing with the predisposition. You know that basic idea that this is how the world works.

[Zach Mak]

Joseph runs experiments to try to find ways to pull people out of the rabbit hole. He's tried challenging them with facts, but he says that doesn't really work.

[Dad]

Because that belief is just a manifestation of something bigger and stronger underneath. And perhaps it's a reflection of their personal identity.

[Zach Mak]

I used to think of my dad's beliefs as separate, like there's how he feels about God or Kira's sexuality, global cabals. But the more I learned, the more I realized it's all inn interconnected part of a worldview that's been many years in the making.

[Dad]

This is the thing that's tough to deal with. We'd like to think that if we could just convince people of the right facts, if everyone just believed the right thing, they'd all act the right way. But here's the thing, is that you correct people's wrong beliefs in something, you correct the misinformation. Yeah, but their views don't matter. They know that a lot of the things aren't true, and they like them because they like them. And simply changing their mind about a handful of facts isn't going to change that.

[Zach Mak]

This is a tough one for me. I've always thought that if I could just string together the exact right pieces of information, that would be enough to change his mind. But that's just not how it works. And I realize now that my father is addressing a need, a need that's being fulfilled by conspiracies and prophets like Julie Green. You are my warriors, children of Almighty God, and I am telling you today to fight back. Take back the dominion and the power and the authority upon this earth.

[Dad]

It invites them into a cosmic battle.

[Zach Mak]

It gives their life this sense of transcendence. This is Dr. Bradley Onishi. He's a professor and former evangelical minister who studies the threat of religious extremism. He says rhetoric like this cast believers as heroes.

[Dad]

It draws someone like your dad into the belief that they're part of something big. Like, hey, my kids, my wife, my pastor, they don't get it, but they will.

[Zach Mak]

They're gonna see that there's a reality.

[Dad]

Here that is just hiding right below the surface. And I've been right all along. And all of the ways that they've sort of given me a side eye or laughed me off in the past when I was kind of hinting at the idea that I thought vaccines were a conspiracy or from the new World.

[Zach Mak]

Order they're going to finally see.

[Dad]

And I'm just tired of people telling me that I don't get it with folks like your dad. What I've seen is they have felt.

[Zach Mak]

Like fish out of water for a long time in the Bay Area and amongst our family and Friends. Dad will always be an outsider. And as I watch my family push him further and further away because of his beliefs, I can see how from his perspective, we are the intolerant ones, the ones who don't understand. I can't imagine what that must feel like. And I know it wears on him. You feel like you're the odd man out?

[Dad]

No, by far.

[Zach Mak]

What is that like?

[Dad]

It's painful at times. It's very sad for me. Yeah, it's a drag.

[Zach Mak]

So what happens when your family, your friends, the people you surround yourself with, don't respect your beliefs? You look elsewhere and I see dad seeking out community and followers. A few years ago, he started a small Bible study group, which I sat in on recently. And while he's mostly facilitating discussion about scripture, I was shocked by the sheer amount of misinformation being flung around so casually. I'm talking about everything from weather controlling devices to global cabals to a lot of anti vax rhetoric. Amongst this small group, I got to see my father surrounded by people that weren't pushing him away. A place where he gets to be the thought leader. Along with this, he's been writing a book that he plans to self publish. My dad's never written a book or identified as a writer, but this past year he seemed to be looking for an audience. So I think, you know, between some of your beliefs, between the Bible group and now with the book, I'm sort of wondering if you, like, feel a deeper urge to be heard.

[Dad]

I do. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Zach Mak]

Can you, can you tell me about that?

[Dad]

Sure. I have a deeper urge to be heard.

[Zach Mak]

Oh man. It feels like there's maybe a little bit of a shift where you're, you're, you're maybe seeking more attention.

[Dad]

I'm not seeking more attention. I, I'm seeking to speak more truth and touch more people's lives in a positive, healing way.

[Zach Mak]

Dad has big plans for this book. My understanding is that it's about forgiveness and the state of Christianity. I'm still fuzzy on the details, but whenever he discusses it, it feels grandiose. Book tours, maybe a bestseller, speaking engagements. It all felt like it was tying back to a higher purpose. Something existential. It's something that I brought up while speaking with other experts.

[Dad]

Even if your father doesn't put the pieces together, there is some awakening of his own mortality that might be contributing to all of this as well.

[Zach Mak]

This is Charlie Safford. He designs clinical therapy techniques for people who believe in far right conspiracies. He believes conspiracy theories are fundamentally Emotional coping mechanisms.

[Dad]

I don't know how old your father is. I'm guessing he's probably in his 50s to 60s.

[Zach Mak]

Yeah, he just turned 69.

[Dad]

Okay. So he's. Whether he knows it or not, is addressing issues related to mortality. One of the ways that you come to terms with your mortality is to look back and say, did my life have meaning? How old was his father when his father died?

[Zach Mak]

I had never considered this angle before. I wasn't sure how old my grandfather was when he passed, so I asked dad, and when he told me, my jaw dropped.

[Dad]

Oh.

[Zach Mak]

Oh, wow.

[Dad]

Yep.

[Zach Mak]

Grandpa was 68 years old, the exact same age as my father when we made our bet.

[Dad]

I've thought about that a million times. I'm not afraid of dying. I'm just saying. It's just. It's kind of ironic I finally hit that age, but I. I'm not worried about it.

[Zach Mak]

Do you feel like you. You need to get a lot done before. Before that happens?

[Dad]

Not at all. No. No. I just want to get this book finished and published as soon as possible, because I think it. It's a great book, and I think it's going to touch a lot of lives. I feel like it's. It's a culmination of my life's work.

[Zach Mak]

I'm hesitant to overly psychoanalyze him, but I think his actions are addressing a way to seek meaning and community and status, all the things he lacks within our family. I see a determination in him that I haven't seen before, an ambition. And while he looks to move more into the role of thought leader, I find that there's even less space for the possibility that he's wrong. Your beliefs, I feel like, have gotten.

[Dad]

More extreme, and I know mom said the same thing. It's not that they've gotten more extreme, because extremism is a negative and pejorative word. I've become more in tune with who I really am.

[Zach Mak]

As we were talking, I reminded dad of that argument we had in the restaurant years ago when he insisted I hardly knew him. Do you feel like I know you now better?

[Dad]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You know me. I. You know, it's hard to put a percentage on it, but. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. These. These conversations and just talking about my dad and all the rest. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Zach Mak]

I spent years feeling distant and frustrated with my dad, but it felt like we were starting to have a breakthrough. That is, until November happened.

[Dad]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Made in Cookware President and co founder Jake Kalik shares a tool that's useful for both master and newbie griller.

[Zach Mak]

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[Dad]

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[Zach Mak]

By the fall, as we rounded into the final stretch of the year, there had still been no movement on any of Dad's predictions. But he didn't seem worried. You still feel good about the bet?

[Dad]

I do. I do.

[Zach Mak]

You're running out of time.

[Dad]

Yeah, I got plenty of time.

[Zach Mak]

I was beginning to realize that my dad might be operating on an entirely different timeline than me. Maybe the end of the year wasn't the end for him. However, I knew I was sticking to January 1st and so was my mom. I don't know what's going to happen at the end of the year. I'm gearing up for a very, very big life change. What if he just says, you know, I still think all these things are going to happen. I just got the timeline wrong. It's just going to happen next year. I can't wait. I can't. I can't keep living with crazy. You know, that meme of the dog sitting in a room engulfed in flames, pretending nothing's wrong, and all they have to say is, this is fine. Usually that's my mom's approach with dad. Usually. I think there's part of me that is trying to ignore where he has gone. This project is making it a little.

[Dad]

Harder to do that.

[Zach Mak]

For my dad, it was becoming a lose lose situation. He was either going to have to forfeit his beliefs or forfeit the family. He's very aware that that's a distinct possibility. More aware than I realized by just what happened today when he gave me.

[Dad]

A belated anniversary gift and he gave.

[Zach Mak]

It to me today because he said, honestly, I wasn't sure what frame of mind you would be in and if you would be willing to even accept it. And he said that. Crying, he wrote in this card, you.

[Dad]

Know, I love you.

[Zach Mak]

I love Zach, I love Kira, I love you. You're the three most important people in my life.

[Dad]

You know?

[Zach Mak]

And he said something, and I said, but you don't. With Kira, you don't. I said, yes, you love her. You. You say you accept her, but you don't accept her. I don't see a way to sway him around that. And so what it means is that the family is irretrievably broken. Shortly after this conversation took place, the election happened. My father, who no longer trusts elections, didn't even bother to watch. My mom was actually the one who told him about Trump's victory. I was calling the next day to discuss the results, and apparently, before I called, dad had echoed some of the false claims about January 6th. Something about how the rioters were paid actors, and that pissed mom off. You know, things were tipping, and that just. That just knocked it all over. The sad part is I had known for years that he believed this. Mom tried her best to look away for so long, but now she was looking.

[Dad]

I have tolerated.

[Zach Mak]

For a long time, and I. I don't choose to tolerate it anymore. That day, mom began sleeping in a separate bedroom, a step I've never seen her take before. How was your conversations with mom today?

[Dad]

Brief and painful.

[Zach Mak]

I mean, she said that she doesn't mind being politically different, but the conspiracy stuff, she's. She's really struggling with.

[Dad]

Yeah.

[Zach Mak]

Do you. Do you feel, like, any pull to, like, meet her halfway on that stuff?

[Dad]

I don't. I mean, how can you meet. I have my opinion. I have my beliefs. How can I halfway believe what I believe?

[Zach Mak]

It's a fair question. Deep beliefs don't feel like choices. But when you reach an impasse like this, choices have to be made. It looks like my mom is making them. And she's not the only one. After a year of nearly no contact with my father, my sister informed the family that she wouldn't be coming home for the holidays, which we always come together for. But after two Christmases in a row where communication had broken down over her sexuality, she decided she wasn't interested in a third. Why aren't you coming home for Christmas?

[Dad]

Because I don't want to be there. I feel like I'm gonna cry. I think last year was so terrible, incredibly terrible for me, and the thought of being back in that space feels awful. Why would I choose that?

[Zach Mak]

What would need to happen for things to change for you?

[Dad]

I think for things to change, like, it's not like things are better than where they were almost a year ago. It's just, like, enough time has passed.

[Zach Mak]

That I don't feel like shit every.

[Dad]

Day, but it's not like much has changed, you know, I'm learning to deal with it.

[Zach Mak]

Do you feel like you have a plan for how you're going to interact with him moving forward?

[Dad]

No, because I feel like there are parts of me that want to continue to have a lot of space and not really have a relationship, but I'm also not in a place where I'm not ready to do that either. And so that's hard. Like, I don't want to not have a relationship with him, but do you want to feel a little bit shitty every day for the rest of your life, or do you want to feel like one big, terrible, gaping wound and then allow that to heal and then keep living? But a lot of people choose the, like, tiny paper cuts every day. Yeah.

[Zach Mak]

The slow death.

[Dad]

Yeah. And I'm just not interested in the tiny paper cuts every day.

[Zach Mak]

For years, Kira had the better relationship with dad, Certainly the less contentious one. And now, while Kira and Dad are further apart than ever, he and I have forged this newfound closeness. Yeah.

[Dad]

I mean, I've thought about it a lot. Like, you know, it's not lost on me that you're closer. And it. It's. It's odd, but I. I'm not, like, upset about it. I mean, I know I sound upset, but I think it's just very layered for me.

[Zach Mak]

Yeah.

[Dad]

And. But I think part of me, in, like, a very bizarre way, is, like, glad that you both have had that. You know, it's not something at all that I can. Can give him. And I don't know if I ever will be able to anymore.

[Zach Mak]

Making this series has been really difficult for me. It's been hard to watch my family go up in flames and to see my mom and sister in pain and to document all that in real time. For months, I wrestled over whether or not I was doing the right thing. And to be honest, I'm still not sure that I am. But I have to acknowledge that it's because of this project that I've been able to speak with my father in ways that I never have before. Still, I wasn't sure that would lead to change. It's my wishful thinking that he will realize if he steps back and looks at the whole picture, that he's not grounded in any reality, and that he'll have an awakening and I will have.

[Dad]

A marriage and a family.

[Zach Mak]

All these conversations with mom and Kira were happening as the deadline for the bet was bearing down on us. So I asked them to think if they had any asks of dad, that I could relay to him. Anything at all, like seeing a therapist, reading a specific book, attending a church with more inclusive views on sexuality. After getting so much closer to him, I just thought that he might be open to it. They said they'd think on it and they would get back to me before New Year's. And this idea of asks got me thinking. My dad is actually pretty good at giving advice. He has this rare ability to step outside of himself. So I asked him, what if a complete stranger came to him with these exact problems? What kind of advice would he give? What would he say to himself if he wasn't, you know, himself?

[Dad]

Help me understand why you believe what you believe. And let's. Let's look at the. The fallacies or the shortcomings in believing that. If you continue to believe that, how is that going to impact your world? How is that going to affect your relationships? What if you entertain this thought? What if you could believe this way? Can you see that that would make a difference in your life or in your relationship, you know, with your spouse, your son, your daughter? What if you could just adjust that thinking enough so that it didn't cause you the pain and the anguish that your current belief causes you? If you can't let go of those beliefs, how can you make room for your wife's, your son's, your daughter's belief without it becoming a stumbling block and you having a relationship with them?

[Zach Mak]

It trips me out when you say things like that, because you're saying it with such clarity, But I wish you were saying it to yourself like I wish you were hearing that.

[Dad]

I am hearing that.

[Zach Mak]

As I prepared to have our final conversation, it felt like maybe he had it in him. If there was ever a time I could possibly get through to him, it would be now. All right. I love you. Thank you for doing this. Thank you so much for your time.

[Dad]

And have a good night. We'll talk to you soon. And you know what, Zach?

[Zach Mak]

Huh?

[Dad]

This alone has been well worth it. All the conversations we've had. I mean, to be perfectly honest, if I had to pay you 50 grand for the time we've spent together, every penny's been worth it.

[Zach Mak]

I appreciate it, dad. It's. It's actually been really nice talking to you, too.

[Dad]

All right.

[Zach Mak]

All right.

[Dad]

Take care.

[Zach Mak]

You too. Good night.

[Dad]

All right.

[Zach Mak]

Okay, here we go. Coming up on the final episode of Alternate Realities.

[Dad]

Oh, I should go get my list, right?

[Zach Mak]

Yeah, go get your list. It's time to settle the bet.

[Dad]

So I'm going to say to you sincerely and honestly and heartfelt that, wow, Zach, I was wrong and you were correct. However.

[Zach Mak]

That'S next time on Alternate Realities. This is episode two of three, and just a heads up, the final episode of the series is available right now. Thank you for listening.

[Dad]

Foreign.

[Zach Mak]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from E Trade from Morgan Stanley. With E Trade, you can dive into the market with easy to use tools, $0 commissions and a wide range of investments. And now there's even more to love. Get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley. Support for the following message comes from Paintcare, making it easy to recycle leftover paint with convenient locations like your local paint store. Find a paint drop off site near [e-mail] this message comes from Bombas.

[Dad]

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