Alternate Realities: Facing the Facts

Summary

Podcast Summary: Embedded - "Alternate Realities: Facing the Facts"

Introduction

In the final installment of NPR's Embedded series titled "Alternate Realities: Facing the Facts," host Kelly McEvers delves into the deeply personal and emotionally charged narrative of Zach Mack and his family's struggle with differing beliefs and predictions about the political landscape of 2024. Released on February 21, 2025, this episode explores themes of familial bonds, ideological conflicts, and the impact of personal convictions on relationships.

The Bet: Ten Predictions for 2024

The core of the episode revolves around a bet between Zach Mack and his father. Zach had challenged his father to make ten predictions about the political events of 2024, wagering $10,000 on the outcome. The predictions included high-stakes claims such as the conviction of prominent political figures and the imposition of martial law.

• Zach's Assessment:
  "No convictions, no charges, not even any investigations. Literally no momentum of any kind." (01:38)
  Zach meticulously reviews each prediction, attributing nine to his father’s inaccuracies by the end of their assessment.

• Dad's Rebuttals:
  Despite the lack of fulfillment of these predictions, Zach's father remains steadfast in his beliefs.
  "Just because this has not happened in 2024 doesn't make any of these less valid." (04:39)

Family Rift Intensifies

As the predictions falter, underlying tensions within the family surface, exacerbating the already strained relationships between Zach, his father, mother, and sister Kira.

• Mother’s Decision to Separate:
  Minutes before a pivotal family call, Zach's sister expresses her inability to participate due to accumulated anger and hurt, leading to the revelation of her decision to separate from their parents.
  "After 40 years of marriage, mom was done. They had agreed to separate and for my dad to move out." (09:05)

• Impact on Zach and Kira:
  The fallout affects Zach deeply, as he navigates his responsibilities towards his family while grappling with his father's unyielding stance.

Final Confrontation and Emotional Climax

The episode culminates in a heartfelt and tearful final meeting between Zach and his father to settle the bet and address the familial rifts.

• Zach's Emotional Breakdown:
  "As we stood there hugging, I just broke down." (24:56)
  This moment underscores the profound emotional toll the conflict has taken on Zach.

• Father's Last Words:
  In a brief final message, Zach's father expresses a glimmer of hope for coexistence despite their differing worldviews.
  "We just have we just come from different viewpoints and we can still cohabitate, so to speak, even though we disagree on our world views." (29:35)

Themes and Insights

1. Ideological Rigidity vs. Open-Mindedness:
   The father's unwavering belief in his predictions and spiritual convictions versus Zach's challenge to question and fact-check these beliefs highlights the struggle between holding steadfast to personal ideologies and embracing flexibility.

2. Family Dynamics and Alienation:
   The episode poignantly illustrates how conflicting beliefs can lead to isolation within a family, affecting marriages, parent-child relationships, and sibling bonds.

3. The Cost of Conviction:
   Zach grapples with feelings of relief intertwined with guilt over the consequences of winning the bet, emphasizing the emotional cost of prioritizing truth over familial harmony.

4. Hope for Reconciliation:
   Despite the adversarial outcomes, there remains a subtle undertone of hope that with professional guidance, the family might find a path to mutual understanding and healing.

Conclusion

"Alternate Realities: Facing the Facts" serves as a compelling exploration of how personal convictions can shape and sometimes fracture family relationships. Through Zach Mack's candid recounting of his family's journey, the episode sheds light on the delicate balance between upholding one's beliefs and maintaining meaningful connections with loved ones. As the family stands at a crossroads, the narrative leaves listeners contemplating the importance of empathy, communication, and the willingness to seek common ground amidst profound differences.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Zach Mack on the Failed Predictions:
  "All the episodes are there. Okay, back to the story. Here's episode three." (00:15)
  "Barack Obama will be convicted of treason... Literally no momentum of any kind." (00:56)

• Dad's Persistence:
  "Or less real. I guarantee you, you will see by the end of 2025 that all 10 of these have legs." (04:39)
  "I still believe the majority of these things are legitimate." (11:54)

• Emotional Climax:
  "I want to have you say after each one of these is that, wow, dad, you were right and I was wrong." (03:53)
  "I just broke down." (24:56)

• Final Message from Dad:
  "We just have we just come from different viewpoints and we can still cohabitate, so to speak, even though we disagree on our world views." (29:35)

Acknowledgments

This episode was produced by Zach Mack with contributions from his family members, including his father, mother, sister Kira, and extended family and friends. Special thanks are extended to the production team, including Ariana Garib Lee, Dan Girma, Luis Treas, and others who supported the storytelling and technical aspects of the series.

Further Listening

Listeners interested in this narrative can also explore a version of Zach Mack's story featured on This American Life. Additional resources and episodes from the Embedded series are available for those seeking to understand the multifaceted nature of personal and familial conflicts in the face of divergent realities.

Transcript

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[Kelly McEvers]

Hey, again, I'm Kelly McEvers, and you are listening to the third and final episode in Embedded's alternate reality series. If you haven't listened to the first two, go back to your feed. All the episodes are there. Okay, back to the story. Here's episode three.

[Zach Mack]

All right. Okay, here we go.

[Dad]

Oh, I should go get my list, right?

[Zach Mack]

Yeah, go get your list.

[Dad]

All right.

[Zach Mack]

After almost a year of waiting, the day had finally arrived. It was time to close out the bet on Dad's ten predictions. With $10,000 on the line. I mean, I have everything, but you.

[Dad]

Can go get your list so I can look at it and see if there's anything I can do. Pretend happened.

[Zach Mack]

Oh, man. Well, at least so far, we're sharing a reality. Dad and I sat across from each other at the same table. We shared countless family dinners growing up. He pulled out his handwritten list, and I had my laptop open to a dock full of questions and fact checks. I'm just gonna go through the list for your 10 predictions for the year. We'll start with the easy ones. There's four that can easily be grouped together, and that is. Barack Obama will be convicted of treason. Joe Biden will be convicted of treason. Nancy Pelosi convicted of treason. The Clintons convicted of treason and murder. I would group them categorically. I ran through the list. No convictions, no charges, not even any investigations. Literally no momentum of any kind.

[Dad]

Yes, I fully hoped that would take place before the end of 2024, but that has not taken place.

[Zach Mack]

If you're keeping score at home, that's four for me. All right, next one. You said Trump will be reinstated without an election. Trump won reelection. He was not reinstated without an election. That's five. Trump will have all charges dropped. On May 30, 2024, Trump was found guilty and convicted on 34 felony charges in a New York hush money trial. Yeah, that makes six. Moving on, next one. Governor Hochul, the governor of New York would be removed from office. Governor Hochul is currently in office. No charges being brought against her. She will be up for reelection in 2026.

[Dad]

That is correct.

[Zach Mack]

Seven onto the home stretch. Biden will be removed from office, which, you know, at the time of the recording, he was still president. Biden's still in the White House. You're not. You're not rebutting that.

[Dad]

Yeah, well. Cause somebody pretending to be the Biden is in the White House.

[Zach Mack]

Okay. And we're back to body doubles. But even still, he conceded the point. So that's eight. Okay, then there's one prediction dad was close on because Eric Adams, the mayor of New York, could be removed, just not in time. As it stands right now, he's still the mayor.

[Dad]

Right.

[Zach Mack]

Tough break. But that makes nine. Okay, last one. Our country would come under martial law. As far as I know. That didn't happen.

[Dad]

That did not happen.

[Zach Mack]

Okay. No. Any rebuttals there?

[Dad]

I'm very happy that that didn't happen.

[Zach Mack]

And that's 10. So it was clear I was the winner. The whole deal was for you to convince me that you're right. But you're oh for 10, so.

[Dad]

Right. I'm zero for 10. So it can only go up from here.

[Zach Mack]

That's one way to put it. At long last, it was finally time to hear dad say the magic words we agreed to a year ago.

[Dad]

I want to have you say after each one of these is that, wow, dad, you were right and I was wrong.

[Zach Mack]

Same goes for you then.

[Dad]

And do you want me to say that 10 times?

[Zach Mack]

I don't need you to say it 10 times. Just give me one good take.

[Dad]

Okay. All right. So I'm going to say to you sincerely and honestly and heartfelt that, wow, Zach, I was wrong and you were correct.

[Zach Mack]

Thank you. I wish I could tell you that dad changed his mind and that the family was able to heal.

[Dad]

However.

[Zach Mack]

You're really prefacing that?

[Dad]

Yes, because. However, just because this has not happened in 2024 doesn't make any of these less valid.

[Zach Mack]

Right?

[Dad]

Or less real. I guarantee you, you will see by the end of 2025 that all 10 of these have legs. And I still am 100% positive that all these are true.

[Zach Mack]

So your explanation for why these things did not yet come to pass is that you just got the timeline wrong? Yes, unfortunately. But unsurprisingly, dad turned to the failed prophecy playbook. He blamed it on the timeline. We were right back where we started. You still believe what you believe. And I still believe that that's false.

[Dad]

Correct.

[Zach Mack]

Dad's not changing. It's not the outcome I was hoping for, but here we are. So now what? What happens to Kira? What happens to Mom? And where does that leave me? The bet was over, but we still needed to assess the damage and see if dad was willing to take any steps towards repair. From NPR's Embedded. I'm Zach Mack and this is the final episode of Alternate Realities.

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[Zach Mack]

Okay, let's back up a second because just days before I sat down with dad to settle the bet, things with the family had hit an all time low. Right before flying home for Christmas, I had arranged a call with my mom and sister. I was hoping they could come up with something I could convey to dad in our final conversation. Concrete steps he could take to show he was trying. But minutes before our call, my sister sent a text. She gave me permission to read this. By the way. Last night I realized to a new degree how angry and hurt I am and am not in the space to participate. I made my ask two years ago for him to accept me and love me and he has seemed very disinterested in doing so. Please continue today without me. Kira was out still. Mom suggested we check in. Turns out she had a pretty big update of her own.

[Dad]

Hi.

[Zach Mack]

Hey. How are you?

[Mom]

A lot going on in the last 12 hours.

[Zach Mack]

She began to fill me in the night before. She and dad were talking about his beliefs around Kira and conspiracies and religion, and if he was open to reconsidering.

[Mom]

He said that he's not going to change his religious viewpoints. He's not going to change. And then I just said. And then I just don't see. I don't see a path where this marriage can continue. I don't see a path for me.

[Zach Mack]

And what did he say?

[Mom]

He. He sort of didn't really respond.

[Zach Mack]

After 40 years of marriage, mom was done. They had agreed to separate and for my dad to move out.

[Mom]

I mean, I'm embarrassed to say the situation with Kira wasn't the one that knocked it over, but I was ever hopeful that he would come to a reality about that. But what I realized is that he's. He's beyond redemption at this point.

[Zach Mack]

To be honest, I was surprised at how quickly all this happened. Not very long ago, we talked, and you were sort of, you know, like, oh, I can't wait for January 1st. So he'll be proven wrong, and then we can kind of, like, move on. Move on. And Here we are 12 days before new Year's, and it's, like, totally sputtered out.

[Mom]

Yeah.

[Zach Mack]

I was proud of mom for holding her ground. Soon she could be unburdened by all this, free to retire and move on. And also, she gave me some relief of my own.

[Mom]

It's been a long time coming. You know, we were headed in this direction long before you.

[Zach Mack]

At least it wouldn't be my reporting that did us in. So days later, it was just down to me and Dad. I had spent months picturing what confronting him would look like, but none of those scenarios had included me being the only one left on good terms with him. After going through each prediction together, I knew it was finally time to press him. I just see sort of an unwillingness to. For you to be wrong.

[Dad]

Wrong about 10 things. I mean, I'm gonna admit I was wrong about the timeline on all 10 things. I've been wrong.

[Zach Mack]

See how you prefaced it? Not. Not that you're wrong about them. You're just wrong about the timeline.

[Dad]

Yeah, but that's still a type of wrong.

[Zach Mack]

Sure, but it's a half measure. It's a way for you to be right.

[Dad]

Yeah. Because I. I still believe the majority of these things are legitimate.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah. Despite dad signaling all year he wasn't going to change his mind, it was still disappointing to see it unfold. All of these beliefs. It Feels like you're. You're really holding on to them, and I'm not sure why, because I. I know they're true.

[Dad]

Why am I going to abandon truth? I. Why would I believe a lie? Why would I give that up? And it's not an arrogant thing. It's. It's a knowing in my soul and in my spirit. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, I can't abandon the truth.

[Zach Mack]

As I watched him dig in and double down, I couldn't help but imagine his future. The unvetted information he'd take in, the precious metals and survivalist gear he'd spend more money on. The people he'd surround himself with as he drifted further away from the family. 1. One of the things I've thought a lot about during this process is, like, is your dad and what happened to him. And in the face of so many people around him, including yourself, saying, hey, you're going down the wrong road, like, don't do this, please listen. And he. He wouldn't. He wouldn't hear it from anyone.

[Dad]

Okay?

[Zach Mack]

And it cost him his life. I see a lot of parallels with what's happening right now.

[Dad]

Interesting.

[Zach Mack]

I. You know, I don't think you're at risk of physical danger so much.

[Dad]

Yeah.

[Zach Mack]

I think you're at risk of a lot of other things.

[Dad]

Like what?

[Zach Mack]

Financial ruin? I think you're at risk of being ostracized and, like, completely left out of this family dynamic.

[Dad]

That would break my heart.

[Zach Mack]

But I think I see that you're at risk reputationally.

[Dad]

How so?

[Zach Mack]

I think the people in your community, you know, our friends, family, I don't think they're. They believe what you believe. And I do think that's going to continue to impact you negatively.

[Dad]

The majority do not. But I don't talk to him about it. I don't talk to Marty about this kind of stuff.

[Zach Mack]

You do talk to Marty about it. I've interviewed Marty about it.

[Dad]

Very, very small. Very small.

[Zach Mack]

I've talked to Marty. I talked to Chuck. I talked to Paul.

[Dad]

Okay.

[Zach Mack]

I talked to John. None of them are really on board with these beliefs.

[Dad]

That's not true.

[Zach Mack]

Paul said he's not on board at all and that it's been really difficult. Chuck, obviously not on board at all. Marty confused, you know, says, I'm just curious how he got to this place. But I feel like the closest friends in your life, your family, you know, the people around you are telling you, hey, you're going the wrong way. You're not listening.

[Dad]

Actually, none of them are saying that to Me?

[Zach Mack]

None of them.

[Dad]

None of them.

[Zach Mack]

Okay.

[Dad]

Yeah. Nobody. None of the people you've mentioned have told me that I'm going in the wrong direction. The only people who've said that are you and Mom.

[Zach Mack]

So if all those people told you, would you hear them?

[Dad]

I would listen to them. I probably wouldn't change, but I take it into consideration.

[Zach Mack]

So you don't think that sounds like your dad?

[Dad]

That aspect of it. Yeah, but my dad. My dad had trouble living in reality. I don't have a trouble living in reality.

[Zach Mack]

I would. I would argue that you do. At this point in the conversation, I began to struggle. I could feel my patience wearing down. I started to press him more. I mean, look at the state of our family right now. I. And I think we've gotten to this place in large part because of your beliefs.

[Dad]

Well, yeah. You can point the finger at me and say it's because of your beliefs. That's partially true. But it's simultaneously because of your. The three of your beliefs. Right. I understand your beliefs, but I don't believe that way. I'm not going to pretend I believe that way. And I know you guys don't want me just to pretend. You want me to embrace it.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah.

[Dad]

And live it and think it and breathe it the same way you do. I can't do that. Therefore, it creates a wedge, right? Yeah, but it doesn't have to. And I think the post Covid years have really magnified and polarized people.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah, but I would say that's when you got radicalized. I don't think ultimately, Mom, Kira and I have changed a lot ideologically since that time. I don't think you're in the same place. I think that's what's changed, and we're reacting to that change.

[Dad]

I can agree with that. I see that I have made more significant changes in the past four years in terms of my own spiritual awareness and spiritual growth.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah.

[Dad]

So. And that certainly I know, feels and looks very radical.

[Zach Mack]

Let's talk about mom for a second.

[Dad]

Oh, I think. I think. I think your mom. I don't know what I think about her anymore. I mean, I don't think negative about her other than she's lost and confused.

[Zach Mack]

I mean, I guess she would say.

[Dad]

That about you, probably, and a lot worse. I continue to love your mom, but this is the irony. She sits in judgment of me and therefore judges me unworthy of being her partner and husband anymore. So she wants to walk away and terminate the relationship and move on. I mean, short of pretending to be Somebody who I'm not. I don't see a solution.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah, I agree. So I think it would. It would take you changing, and it doesn't seem like you're really open to doing that.

[Dad]

Yeah. Or simultaneously. It would take the three of you changing.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah.

[Dad]

Right.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah. But I. I just don't see a compelling sell. It doesn't seem like. You're right. I could see dad straining, searching for any solution that didn't involve him being wrong. So he started bargaining.

[Dad]

Zack, I could never talk to you about this again, have great times with you, great conversations, and pretend I didn't believe any of this anymore.

[Zach Mack]

So just suppressing it.

[Dad]

Yeah.

[Zach Mack]

Is the solution, you think?

[Dad]

No, I don't think it's the solution. But that's what I feel pressured to do when I have these kind of conversations with you.

[Zach Mack]

I mean, look, I think this year has been difficult, especially recently. But I also think you and I have gotten closer than we've ever been.

[Dad]

I agree. And that's why I say, for me, that's worth every dollar.

[Zach Mack]

It. Yeah. It's not that it's not worth it. It's just. Well, I don't know. I don't know that it is worth. I don't think these beliefs are worth it. I think you're losing a lot for them.

[Dad]

I disagree.

[Zach Mack]

I think you and I are. Are, like, ultimately where I do feel like we are getting along really well. I do feel conflicted because as that's happening, you and mom are getting separated and Kira's not home for Christmas. And those are all because of your beliefs.

[Dad]

Simultaneously. I would say to you that.

[Zach Mack]

All.

[Dad]

Three of you are judging me very harshly, and that's what's causing the rift. I can accept you and love you and have my beliefs and accept your beliefs. You can't accept my beliefs without judging me.

[Zach Mack]

You don't think you're judging Kira?

[Dad]

Not at all. I love my daughter. I love Kira.

[Zach Mack]

I know that you do.

[Dad]

I would never. I would never disown my daughter. I would, literally.

[Zach Mack]

But you reject her sexuality.

[Dad]

I reject her identifying herself as lesbian or queer or whatever.

[Zach Mack]

For. Why?

[Dad]

Because I don't believe that's a legitimate label. And I refuse to see my daughter only through that lens.

[Zach Mack]

But I think Kira does feel rejected. She does not feel fully accepted by you.

[Dad]

Yeah, I get that. I get that. And I don't know how to convince her otherwise, but I will continue to try. It's not about rejection. See, that's how you guys label it, but it's not rejection. It's about looking at it from a spiritual viewpoint where this is not what God wants for her. Right. And because I identify more with God, I take the same path.

[Zach Mack]

What is your plan with Kira?

[Dad]

To continue to reach out to her and continue to reassure her that I love her, want to spend time with her. And I don't sit in judgment of her, and I don't look down on her, and I don't think anything negative about her.

[Zach Mack]

As the conversation wound down, I let go of any notion I could convince him of anything he didn't already believe. I was finally ready to stop struggling and just accept the truth. I couldn't help him. Maybe someone else could. If I arranged for someone to speak with you about this stuff, who sort of specializes in. In this stuff, would you be open to something like that?

[Dad]

Sure.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah. You actually would.

[Dad]

Yeah.

[Zach Mack]

Okay. I mean that. Honestly, that's kind of it. I just want to say I do really appreciate. Oh, man. Sorry. It's been. It's been a hard year, man. This is.

[Dad]

Yeah.

[Zach Mack]

But I mean, I appreciate the conversations we've had all year. Like, I feel closer to you than I ever have. And I'm. I'm really sad about the state of this family.

[Dad]

Yeah.

[Zach Mack]

But I do appreciate your. Your openness, your willingness to. I don't know. I mean, you never ducked. You never ducked. A hard question.

[Dad]

No need to.

[Zach Mack]

Where do you think we'll be next Christmas?

[Dad]

I don't know. I have no idea.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah.

[Dad]

I have no idea, man. I can't even think that far ahead.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah. I have one final question for you.

[Dad]

Okay.

[Zach Mack]

How are you gonna pay me? Check. Should we go to the bank? Should I get one of those giant golf checks?

[Dad]

I figured you'd probably want small, unmarked bills. Non sequential.

[Zach Mack]

Yes.

[Dad]

So do you. Did you bring a suitcase?

[Zach Mack]

I have a gym bag.

[Dad]

Okay. We'll fill that puppy up.

[Zach Mack]

Let's do it.

[Dad]

All right.

[Zach Mack]

Let's get a hug.

[Dad]

All right. Oh, I love you.

[Zach Mack]

Love you, too. As we stood there hugging, I just broke down.

[Dad]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's my word.

[Zach Mack]

I don't know what comes next, where we go from here. It felt like things fell apart so quickly, but also so slowly over many years. The cracks became holes, and in the end, we didn't make it. I think in many ways, I'm the one who got off the easiest. I'm still in good standing with everyone, which makes me feel a mixture of relief and guilt, maybe a splash of gratitude. And for those of you who keep asking, yes, I took the money. Absolutely. Okay. We're walking to the Rose Bowl.

[Dad]

Yeah.

[Zach Mack]

How do you feel? But on New Year's Day, the day my dad officially lost the bet, I'm pumped up. I took him to go see Ohio State, our favorite football team, playing the Rose Bowl. What do you think the score is going to be? And paid for everything.

[Dad]

I think it's going to be 31 to 22 bucks.

[Zach Mack]

Okay. Yet another prediction my father got wrong, by the way. But they did win. Go, Buckeyes. Let's go. All right, let's go. The day was a reminder of how good things could be, and at the same time, of everything we couldn't be. Not anymore. As I watched the clock run down, I knew the moment the game was over. So was our shared reality. You just heard alternate realities from Embedded. You can also check out a version of the story that I made for this American Life that is available now. This series would not have been possible without my father, mother and sister. Kira, I cannot say enough about your openness and bravery, and I'm so thankful for your love and support throughout this project. It means the world to me. This series was produced and sound designed by Ariana Garib Lee and Dan Girma. The two of you were incredible to work with the and you both have my back every step of the way. You guys are amazing. Luis Treas edited this series. And Luis, I just want to say thank you for all of your dedication and believing in this story from the very beginning. Music includes original scoring by my guy, Peter Leonard, Gilly Moon and Robert Rodriguez mastered this series. Fact checking by Greta Pittenger. Special thanks to Sarah Wyman for production support. Leona Simstrom is our supervising senior producer. Katie Simon is our supervising senior editor. Katie, thank you for being so patient with me throughout this process. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. NPR's senior vice president for podcasting is Colin Campbell. What up, Colin? The Embedded team also includes Adelina Lancianniz, Abby Windle, Andrew Mambo and Raina Cohen. Thanks to Managing Editor of Standards and Practices, Toni Cavan and to Micah Ratner and Johannes Durgi for legal support. Our visuals editor is Emily Bogle. Original tile art by Luke Medina. Special thanks to Kelly McEvers, Brett Neely, Sarah Ventri and Lauren Gonzalez. And also David Kestenbaum, Frances Swanson and Ira Glass from this American Life. Also, thank you to Nishat Kurwa from Vox Media, Simon Adler and Tessa Stewart, who helped with this story early on. Thank you to the people in my life, Joshua Muir, Ellen Skiff and all the other friends who have kept me sane over the months. Shout out to my personal board members, Sean Ramaswoorm and Chris Bannon and Dave Johnson. Thank you so much for your contract support. Finally, we are grateful to all the social scientists, journalists and other experts who took the time to speak to us and whose research informed this series, including Charlie Safford, Joseph Uszinski, Tom Costello, Sander Vanderlinden, Gordon Pennicook, Matthew Taylor, Alexandra Philendra, and Brad Onishi, who has a great podcast called Straight White American Jesus. Check it out. And a big thanks to our Embedded plus supporters. Embedded is where we do ambitious long form journalism at npr and Embedded plus helps us keep that work going. Supporters also get to listen to every Embedded series sponsor free and every episode early. Find out [e-mail] embedded or find the embedded channel in Apple. Alright, I'm Zach Mack and this is Embedded. Thank you for listening.

[Dad]

Hey Zach, just wanted to check in with you, see how you were doing. And then also just wanted to say we just come from different points of view. And I hope that as we continue to Talk here in 2025 and as you edit this program, you'll recognize that we just have we just come from different viewpoints and we can still cohabitate, so to speak, even though we disagree on our world views. All right, love you. Have a great day. Bye.

[Kelly McEvers]

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