The Black Gate: Arresting Your Brothers and Sisters

Summary

Podcast Summary: Embedded – "The Black Gate: Arresting Your Brothers and Sisters"

Introduction

In the poignant finale of NPR's Embedded series, "The Black Gate: Arresting Your Brothers and Sisters," host Kelly McEvers delves deep into the harrowing realities faced by the Uyghur community under China's oppressive regime. Through the meticulous reporting of NPR correspondent Emily Fang and the insightful contributions of Uyghur activist Abdoulaye Ayoop, the episode sheds light on the intricate web of victimization, complicity, and survival within the Uyghur diaspora.

The Kuchar Family’s Ordeal

The episode centers around the Kuchar family, who became victims of China's severe crackdown on Uyghurs and other Muslim groups. In 2021, amidst heightened repression, the family was torn apart: Abdul Latif Kuchar was diagnosed with cancer, and his wife, Maryam, remained imprisoned in China. Despite ongoing efforts to reunite, Maryam's plight underscores the persistent human rights violations faced by Uyghurs.

Notable Quote:

• Abdul Latif Kuchar: "If I could go back to Xinjiang again, I'd tell her, don't lose hope, that, God willing, we will meet again." (43:15)

Unveiling Saber Bogda’s Role

Emily Fang's investigation introduces Saber Bogda, a prominent Uyghur businessman reputed for his ability to navigate both Uyghur and Chinese spheres. Saber’s enigmatic role raises suspicions about his true intentions—whether he genuinely aids fellow Uyghurs or serves as an instrument for Chinese oversight.

Key Points:

• Saber Bogda’s reputation for facilitating visas for Uyghurs trying to enter or leave China.
• His establishment of the Golden Dragon restaurant in Istanbul, a nexus for Chinese officials and Uyghur businessmen.
• Allegations of Saber leveraging his influence to maintain silence among Uyghur families in exchange for assistance.

Notable Quotes:

• Abdoulaye Ayoop: "Saber is one of the most famous Uyghur around the world." (04:01)
• Saber Bogda: "This is a problem, a problem that could be solved through dialogue in a formal manner over many years." (08:51)
• Abdoulaye Ayoop: "If you do something underlyingly, people feel suspicious and the people will not trust each other." (09:58)

The Complexity of Uyghur Alliances with Chinese Authorities

The narrative explores the uneasy alliances some Uyghurs form with Chinese authorities, driven by survival instincts amidst oppressive measures. These relationships foster mistrust within the Uyghur community, as individuals like Saber navigate a precarious balance between aiding their people and potentially compromising their autonomy.

Key Points:

• The societal pressure on Uyghurs to collaborate with Chinese officials for familial and economic survival.
• Instances of Uyghur businessmen being coerced into espionage or surveillance roles by Chinese diplomats.
• The internal conflict experienced by Uyghurs who must choose between resistance and collaboration.

Notable Quotes:

• M (anonymous Uyghur businessman): "Our tragedy is that we have to live. Survival is our biggest priority. We have families, children. We need to survive." (15:41)
• A (anonymous former Uyghur police officer): "We often place all the blame on China, on various factors, on America, on Turkey. But as Uyghurs, are we completely innocent?" (11:34)

A’s Transformation: From Enforcer to Dissident

A significant portion of the episode focuses on "A," a former Uyghur police officer who transitioned from enforcing Chinese state policies to becoming a vocal critic. His journey from compliance to resistance encapsulates the moral dilemmas and personal transformations occurring within the Uyghur community.

Key Points:

• A's initial role in supervising Uyghur detainees and enforcing ideological conformity.
• His witnessing of brutal punishments and the psychological toll it took, leading to his disillusionment.
• A’s eventual escape from China and his quest for redemption and a new life in Istanbul.

Notable Quotes:

• A: "There was a man in the class, over 60 years old... His heart ached for him." (27:35)
• A: "The government was propagandizing to the international community that religious rights were being protected here." (34:02)
• Abdoulaye Ayoop: "I can't understand as a victim, as a waker. I can't." (39:13)

Abdoulaye Ayoop’s Perspective

Abdoulaye Ayoop provides a critical lens through which the actions of individuals like Saber and A are examined. As a writer and activist, Ayoop grapples with the moral accountability of those who oscillate between victim and perpetrator, emphasizing the necessity for Uyghurs to unite and resist collaboration with oppressive forces.

Key Points:

• Ayoop’s skepticism towards individuals who fail to fully acknowledge the wrongs they’ve been part of.
• His call for repentance and truth-telling among Uyghur collaborators.
• The broader implications of internal divisions within the Uyghur diaspora on their struggle for rights and recognition.

Notable Quotes:

• Abdoulaye Ayoop: "How can you arrest your brothers and sisters? Yes, I can understand as a scholar, but I can't understand as a victim, as a waker." (39:13)

The Moral Inertia and Survival Dilemma

The episode poignantly captures the immense moral inertia and survival dilemmas faced by Uyghurs. The necessity to maintain economic stability and familial ties often forces individuals into morally ambiguous positions, where the lines between victim and enforcer become blurred.

Key Points:

• The pervasive fear of repercussions that drives Uyghurs to betray one another under duress.
• The economic collapse in Xinjiang due to mass detentions and the subsequent desperation among Uyghur businessmen.
• The struggle to reconcile personal survival with collective solidarity and resistance.

Notable Quotes:

• A: "Our tragedy is that we have to live. Survival is our biggest priority." (15:41)
• Emily Fang: "People do what they do to survive and there are no easy black and white moral choices to make." (17:16)

Conclusion: The Ongoing Struggle and Unanswered Questions

As the episode concludes, the unresolved fate of Maryam Kuchar remains a stark reminder of the ongoing struggles within the Uyghur community. While Abdul Latif Kuchar manages to reconnect with his children, his battle with cancer and the absence of his wife underscore the persistent cruelties of the Chinese regime.

Final Reflections:

• The story of the Kuchar family encapsulates the personal and collective traumas inflicted upon Uyghurs.
• The moral complexities and internal conflicts within the Uyghur diaspora highlight the broader challenges in combating systemic oppression.
• The necessity for continued global awareness and support for the Uyghur cause to dismantle the structures that perpetuate their suffering.

Notable Quote:

• Abdul Latif Kuchar: "For my children, I hope they grow up without losing their sense of identity. For them to know who they are, where they come from and where they are headed." (43:15)

Closing Remarks

"The Black Gate: Arresting Your Brothers and Sisters" serves as a compelling exposé on the intricate dynamics within the Uyghur community under Chinese surveillance and oppression. Through firsthand accounts and investigative journalism, Emily Fang and Abdoulaye Ayoop illuminate the deep-seated moral quandaries and the relentless fight for identity and freedom faced by Uyghurs worldwide.

For those seeking to understand the multifaceted struggles of the Uyghur people, this episode offers a profound and empathetic exploration of victimhood, resistance, and the complex interplay between survival and solidarity.

Timestamps Overview:

• 03:04: Emily Fang discusses the challenges in securing interviews with the Kuchar family.
• 03:25: Introduction to Saber Bogda’s influence and its implications.
• 08:51: Saber Bogda on the potential for dialogue with Chinese authorities.
• 11:34: Ayoop comments on the mistrust within the Uyghur community.
• 15:41: M discusses the survival-driven decisions of Uyghur businessmen.
• 22:42: A recounts his experiences enforcing state policies in Xinjiang.
• 27:35: A's growing disillusionment with his role in the detention camps.
• 34:02: A describes witnessing government propaganda efforts.
• 39:13: Ayoop reflects on A's inability to reconcile his actions.
• 43:15: Abdul Latif Kuchar shares his hopes for his children amidst personal struggles.

---

Note: The timestamps correspond to the moments in the transcript where the quoted statements occur, allowing listeners to reference specific segments of the episode.

Transcript

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[Kelly McEvers]

I'm Kelly McEvers and this is embedded from NPR. NPR correspondent Emily Fang started reporting the story of the Kuchar family and their separation in 2021. It was during China's crackdown on Uyghurs and other Muslim groups, and since then Emily has kept following the family. Abdul Atif Kuchar had been diagnosed with cancer and his wife, Maryam was still being held in a Chinese prison. We will hear from Abdul Latif later in this episode. But also, Emily still had these nagging questions. Who was the person who tried to dissuade the Kuchar family from telling their story to NPR all those years ago? And why? So Emily called up Uyghur activist and writer Abdoulaye Ayoop. He's the one who introduced her to the Kuchar family and helped her with translations in her first two episodes. And then she started digging. And what she found was a kind of meta story about the people who work to silence stories. And some of them have felt silence themselves and how they help perpetuate and justify systems they know are wrong. Emily will pick up the story after the break as she and Abdoulaye work to track down that mysterious ally to the Kuchar family.

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[Emily Fang]

Years to convince the Kuchars to talk to us for those first couple episodes.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

I kept in contact, but they kept distance.

[Emily Fang]

Abdoulaye eventually heard through a family member that a prominent Uyghur businessman had offered his help only if the Kuchars did not talk to the media.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

If he keep silent, he will help to save his wife too.

[Emily Fang]

This businessman's name, the relative told Abdoulaye, was Saber Bogda. He is a man known to make things happen, but he is also rumored to request things in return, like silence. As in don't speak out against the government and I'll see what I can do. So I had to wonder who is this man and why does he do what he does? Is he a spy for China?

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

Saber is one of the most famous Uyghur around the world with, Abdoulaye says.

[Emily Fang]

A huge public presence.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

I have seen him on the screen, I have read articles even about him and I heard a lot of rumors about him.

[Emily Fang]

Rumors about his ability to work with Chinese government officials because he is the.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

One that easily get visa from Chinese Embassy.

[Emily Fang]

This is apparently one of Saaber's magic powers. He's able to obtain visas for Uyghurs hoping to get back into China. Since China's crackdown, it's been almost impossible for Uyghurs to leave China or to return. But Saaber floats between these worlds and he promises others the same opportunity to.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

Save their family members and help them because of he can back and forth between China and Turkey, between Istanbul and Urimqi.

[Emily Fang]

One Uyghur guy I talked to who was having trouble getting his Chinese passport renewed, remembers Saber when swipping out his phone, calling a Chinese diplomat and fixing the problem within the week. So that's what we knew about Saber, but we never met him in person or been able to talk to him. Then last fall, Saber, out of the blue, reached out. So we headed to Istanbul. Turkey is now home to an estimated 50,000 Uyghurs, including many who have fled the crackdown in China. Abdoulaye met Saber first at his office and later I met him at an upscale restaurant in Istanbul. Saber is tall, thin, dapper and very charismatic. Almost immediately after we sat down, he launched into his backstory. He says he first left China in 1998 and came to Turkey as a student.

[Saber Bogda]

When I first arrived In Istanbul, Uyghurs were scarce in numbers.

[Emily Fang]

Now remember, the 1990s were the beginning of a brief period of relative prosperity for Uyghurs in China. But after 911 and after the Islamophobia in the US and China that followed, Uyghurs began to suffer. But not Saber. While still a student, he also became an entrepreneur.

[Saber Bogda]

During that period, I juggled business ventures alongside my college studies, frequently traveling between Central Asia and Turkey. Specifically, I was involved in antler and copper trades, which were thriving industries at the time.

[Emily Fang]

He says he made a ton of money. But his real claim to fame in Istanbul was a Chinese restaurant he opened called the Golden Dragon.

[Saber Bogda]

Our restaurant has attracted celebrities like Sophia Loren and Jackie Chan, as well as hosted heads of state. If a patron didn't spend at least $50 on food, then we wouldn't even look them in the face.

[Emily Fang]

The restaurant also became a hotspot gathering place for Turkish and Chinese government officials. I met several Uyghurs in Turkey who described meeting Sabr there for business and running into Chinese officials. In 2010, Saber set up a non profit organization in Istanbul called the Turkish Uyghur Industrialists and Entrepreneurs association, which promotes Xinjiang. How great it is. And tries to drum up investment in the region. Just a few weeks after the organization's launch, Sauber, as its president, got to meet with the then Chinese premier, Wen Jiabao, who was in Turkey on a state visit. Sauber says he took the meeting as a chance to press for greater rights for Uyghur people in China. He says he told the premier about the embarrassing interrogations he'd suffered when trying to enter China and emphasized how common this is.

[Saber Bogda]

All Uyghur people living around the world face the same problem at the Chinese border. It's unfair to treat Uyghurs like this. Upon entering the country, Sabers continue traveling.

[Emily Fang]

To China and meeting with officials. Despite the crackdown in Xinjiang, he maintains that open lines of communication with the Chinese state actually helped the Uyghur people.

[Saber Bogda]

This is a problem, a problem that could be solved through dialogue in a formal manner over many years. It can be addressed through dialogue and negotiation done in the right way.

[Emily Fang]

Saaber says he does not take sides in this conflict, but he's repeated false claims about Uyghurs on Turkish media. In 2020, he said Covid was the reason Uyghurs were not allowed to leave China or contact their relatives. But he never mentioned the state crack.

[Saber Bogda]

I don't view China as a problematic country. In Turkey, we might see Things that are different as normal. China's political structure has its limitations and it may resort to aggressive actions for certain issues. I consider this normal.

[Emily Fang]

The truth is it's impossible to really know where Saber stands. Is he trying to help the Uyghur people or is he being used as a pawn by the Chinese state? Abdoulaye says not having those answers creates mistrust.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

If you do something underlyingly, people feel suspicious and the people will not trust each other. People suspect that. Are you working with Chinese government? Are you working for Chinese government?

[Emily Fang]

This does happen. Some Uyghurs have said they're asked by Chinese police officers to spy on other Uyghurs in Turkey. And suspicion is rife among the Uyghur diaspora about potential spies and informants lurking in their midst. For example, right after Wen Jiabao, that Chinese premier visited Turkey, a second Uyghur businessman told me he received a phone call. It was from a young, low level Chinese diplomat who was ethnically Uyghur. And this Chinese diplomat politely asked the businessman to start a second branch of the organization Saber began in Istanbul. The Chinese diplomat said they wanted eyes on the ground in every Turkish city. China regularly sets up surveillance operations to monitor diaspora and dissident groups abroad in the US and the United Kingdom, for example. And Turkey is no exception. This businessman told me, however, that he said no in his interview with us. Saber hedged when asked about whether he worked with China, whether it spied on Uyghurs, and he even suggested Uyghurs were in part to blame for their predicament.

[Saber Bogda]

We often place all the blame on China, on various factors, on America, on Turkey. But as Uyghurs, are we completely innocent?

[Emily Fang]

And Saber was really skillful in sidestepping every question lobbed at him about whether he's a spy. He does not deny he works with Chinese officials. After all. Chinese state media reports show he's been an official representative at political meetings in Beijing for at least two years and met at least several times with officials from China's United Front. That's the Communist Party body tasked with co opting dissident groups outside China. But for Uyghurs desperate to connect with family inside China, Saber is a lifeline, in large part because he has this unusual access. So what are Saber's motivations? To this day, Abdoulaye and I still don't totally understand.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

I wanted to believe, I still want to believe he has done something good. I should be fair that he has done nothing harmful to the people from his description, and from my understanding, from my knowledge, people asked him help and then he helped. But we don't know the motivation. So that secret, the lobbying is harmful to Uyghur society because of. You can't tell what you have done to the people. But I don't have evidence to prove this. I don't believe something without evidence.

[Emily Fang]

I reached out to the Chinese government seeking information on Saber Baghda and his relationship to China. My questions went unanswered when I met Saber in Istanbul in October 2023. He was preparing to lead another delegation of Uyghur businessmen from Turkey to China, and dozens of Uyghurs had tried to sign up. Saber had given the Chinese Foreign Ministry a list of Uyghur men, and Beijing got to handpick the people they wanted to come. Those who were selected were guaranteed safe passage in and out of China. But there is a cost to going.

[M]

Spying is too big of a word for what these people do.

[Emily Fang]

This is M, another Uyghur businessman who desperately wanted to be included in Saber's delegation, despite knowing it might mean he'd get approached by Chinese authorities.

[M]

The Chinese Public Security and State Security bureaus contact Uyghur businessmen and threaten them and ask them to pass on information about the Uyghur people around them, where they live and what they do for work.

[Emily Fang]

M left his hometown of Urumji, that's Xinjiang's capital, in 2015 after a lot of his friends were detained, which is why M did not want to be named in the story. His family in Xinjiang has come under a lot of state pressure because he now lives abroad. Yet after nearly eight years in Turkey, M still misses China. His life's work was there, including his business.

[M]

Normal logic dictates we shouldn't have any contact with Chinese people, but we only know how to work with Chinese people. We have no other options. Turkey is even worse. We've all gone bankrupt working with people here because we do not know how to work here. We have to keep up contacts with China. Among us Uyghur businessmen, more than 99% of us still have links to China.

[Emily Fang]

Which is why M wanted to go on Sabra's trip to China, despite the risk of having to pass on information to the state.

[M]

Our tragedy is that we have to live. Survival is our biggest priority. We have families, children. We need to survive. I used to criticize the Uyghur people for not being united against the Chinese, but I learned the hard way that to survive, we have to have contact with China. And do bad things.

[Emily Fang]

But in the end, M was rejected. He was not allowed to enter China. He does not know why and he's reeling. Chinese business partners he's worked with for years have abandoned him because they think they could get in trouble by associating with him.

[M]

All it takes is one phone call from the local Chinese police. They'll say, don't work with so and so person, otherwise it'll bring trouble. All it takes is one call and the other person will immediately cut ties with you. They can't ask why.

[Emily Fang]

Still, M told me he does not fault Saber and other Uyghurs who keep up a two way street with Beijing.

[M]

So many people have fear, fear of losing their families, their businesses being affected. That's the biggest problem right now. In order to survive, they turn their backs on their own people.

[Emily Fang]

I heard this again and again during my reporting in Turkey. People do what they do to survive and there are no easy black and white moral choices to make. And as for Saber, he never really explained why he'd reached out to us and wanted to talk. But by the end of our meeting with him, it seemed pretty clear he was just trying to justify what he does and how he does it. But justifications like that don't sit well with Abdueli. He's a writer and activist. He's taken a clear stand. Abdueli thinks the Uyghur people are in crisis and engagement with the Chinese state is a betrayal.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

People feel that they are on the battlefield at the war. So at the war we have only two sides. One attack, another defend themselves. At that time, it's really clear that who is who. If you commute between two sides, it's really obvious people feel who you are.

[Emily Fang]

But one thing that stuck out to me during my years reporting on the ground in Xinjiang was this. There are a lot of Uyghurs in this position. A lot of the low level staff enforcing China's crackdown are ethnic Uyghurs. I've always wondered how this Chinese police state in Xinjiang endures, how it continues to keep Uyghurs outside China from speaking out, and also how it controls Uyghurs and inside China, who comprise just under half of Xinjiang's population. China's success, it turns out, has a lot to do with the help it receives from people like Saber. In a moment, I'll tell you about one of those low level enforcers. He's a Uyghur man who worked for the Chinese government in Xinjiang.

[A]

I knew in my heart that the government's policy was wrong.

[Emily Fang]

We'll be right back.

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[Emily Fang]

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[Emily Fang]

So in Turkey, we met Saber, a powerful businessman with ties to China. He insists he's helping Uyghurs by keeping good relations with the Chinese authorities. He has no regrets about working within the system China has established. I met another man who at first sounds a lot like Saber. He was sympathetic to the Chinese government and thought he was helping in the work he was assigned. But over time he changed his mind and his story ends in a very different place from Saaber's. Abdoulay Ayoob first met this man in Istanbul, where the man now lives. We got to know him at a Uyghur run restaurant in the city. The owners pulled some curtains around us to give us privacy and then served us steaming plates of pulo, a kind of rice pilaf beloved by Uyghurs. You can make an order, but also with dumplings. Okay, we're calling this man by his first initial only A because he also has family left in China whose safety he worries about. A tells us it's been a long journey to Turkey. Back in China, he says, he trained as a teacher, then got a job in his hometown in the local government. Most of his work was administrative. He registered marriages and divorces, maintained land records and registrations and things like that. But in 2014, A started to notice something different happening. He began to get a lot of new assignments at work and requests to do overtime.

[A]

Since mid-2014, working groups were formed. We don't get breaks anymore at work. We can't even ask for one.

[Emily Fang]

And part of A's new role was to report Uyghurs who appeared to be practicing Muslims.

[A]

We were sent out to surveil the Uyghur farmers, for example, to see if there were abnormal situations, such as if they had a beard or not. At the beginning, actually, the government didn't say that they had to get rid of their beards altogether, nor did they tell Uyghurs to take off their long religious robes. They were very soft in their tone, and they said that they should change their long clothes to shorter ones.

[Emily Fang]

In 2016, it fell on aid to notify working adults that it was their turn to go to school and bring them from their home or workplace directly to what are essentially detention camps. Abdul Latif Kuchar's young children, Aisoo and Lutfula, were taken to similar facilities when they were detained by the Chinese state. It's where they said they were beaten, punished for speaking the Uyghur language, and occasionally kept in solitary confinement. Although China euphemistically calls these schools state procurement documents and satellite images of these camps show that some of them have come to resemble correctional facilities with barbed wire, high walls and guard towers. And people cannot leave. But at first, A was not too concerned about them.

[A]

I didn't pay close attention to it, such as who was taken there and how it was done. When I attended the training, there weren't that many people.

[Emily Fang]

A thought this was just another round of ideological campaigning. He'd experienced numerous ebbs and flows in how China controls Xinjiang, and he saw it as his duty to his family fellow Uyghurs, to implement state policy, basically to get whatever this is over with more quickly. And soon A told us he got assigned a new job teaching at one of the detention camps. The school, as he calls it, was in the chilly northern mountain ranges of Xinjiang, and it had been built quickly out of once empty land. It was also run very strictly. Here's how A remembers the routine.

[A]

Every morning, summertime, around 5 o' clock, winter time is 5:30. A bells rung like bells rung in military camps. After the bell rings, we all stand up, make our beds. You have 20 minutes to brush your teeth and wash your face and get on the field, where we did military style drills such as running in the field. Then we'd shout political slogans. There are a lot of them to be read. We do drills of turning left and right and push UPS very hard military training.

[Emily Fang]

A says he was assigned to help with the studying bit, teaching classes in Mandarin Chinese language, in Xi Jinping speeches, and in lessons against religious extremism. At first, he said he did his job with gusto.

[A]

During the session, I exerted my utmost effort because in my opinion, terrorism is morally unjustifiable. It is fundamentally wrong to take the lives of others. I was passionate about training them, encouraging them to pay attention to modern science and technology, democracy and human rights. I emphasized how the bombings and terror attacks in Afghanistan were wrong and harmful to others. When I spoke of democracy and human rights, their hearts were deeply moved.

[Emily Fang]

His students were forced to be there, though, remember, they were under pressure to show they'd reformed in some way in order to leave. A few months later, A was reassigned to a second detention camp near the city of Corla in Xinjiang's north, this one built on the grounds of an actual middle school. I wanted to know exactly where both camps were, so he took a break from the interview and I pulled up Google Maps on my phone. A pointed to where he'd worked, and both camps match exactly to two camps identified and confirmed by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, an Australian think tank. And it was at the second camp that he was assigned to that A says he started doubting the work when he questioned the treatment of the detainees and whether he was complicit in all of it.

[A]

There was a man in the class, over 60 years old. Unfortunately, his responses were not as quick as the others. This elderly man struggled to write a reflection essay, and when he couldn't keep up, he was subjected to beatings with sticks and slaps by the teachers. It pained me to see an elder treated this way. There were seven or eight others like him who endured similar punishment. While some of them deliberately resisted the system and reacted poorly, he remained a well behaved man. He would listen attentively, but his slower reactions left him behind. He was subject to harsh beatings several times, and my heart ached for him. On the contrary, he deserved respect in society or any community. Everyone should have shown him respect and greeted him warmly.

[Emily Fang]

A says he started trying to help the detainees out, helping the older residents remember their Chinese, and sneaking the younger ones extra eggs from his own breakfast because he knew they weren't getting as much food. But he also started to fear for his own safety. He realized the teachers, and not just the students, were being watched close.

[A]

At that time, I had a sad feeling in my heart. But despite that, even if we knew what was happening was wrong in our hearts, I couldn't let the government know that I felt that way. We had a boss that watched our every move. If they found out that we had emotions about what was going on, they would file a report on us.

[Emily Fang]

As a told his story, Abdoulaye and I found it hard to understand how he could justify his work, given what he was seeing. So I asked him why he kept teaching despite his doubts.

[A]

I thought that by working diligently, the number of students would decrease and there would be no need for further training in the future. Unfortunately, the exact opposite occurred. Some of the students I taught relinquished their hidden books and tapes. However, the government still maintained that their camp incarceration action was justified. That was when I experienced the most distress. I believed that through training, they would find liberation and no longer endure such treatment. But the numbers grew to a thousand.

[Emily Fang]

And as the detention camps were filling up with Uyghurs, the economy tanked. With their owners or employees in detention, small businesses around Xinjiang began to fail. Chinese investors started pulling out because of the political instability. And A, who could no longer stand teaching at these camps, tried to find another stable source of income. One of the only jobs left, however, was in the police force. And so in 2019, he says, he reluctantly became a police officer in Korla.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

Adam in my door, if I don't.

[A]

Work, someone else will take my place. If someone worse than me or less educated than me were hired, they might enforce police work more harshly, leading to further oppression of Uyghur people.

[Emily Fang]

When we met, A showed me his police badge to verify his identity and former occupation. He says his hardest assignment as a police officer, when he's asked to really prove his loyalty, came later in 2019. It was June, the Eid Al Fitra festival, an important holiday on the Muslim calendar. And A is told to go to Kashgar, a city in the south of Xinjiang that's the heart of Uyghur culture. These Chinese state media videos from that day in Kashgar and around Xinjiang show beautiful scenes of Uyghur life in the lead up to the holiday. There are video diaries of young Uyghur men and women preparing for Ramadan, and shots of these long rows of men bowing to prayer outside mosques. A is at one of those mosques, too, with about 30 children he's been asked to look after.

[A]

At the time of Eid. They tell us this day is Eid. You should assign Uyghur police. Three or four of them from one police station go to the mosques. On the Eid mornings, we'll Tell you what your assignments are when you get there. We bring with us 15 or 20 Uyghur officers to a station, and another 15 are Chinese, half Chinese, half Uyghur. They assign three or four of us, mostly young officers. The ones without family I was also assigned. We gathered in a hall of a big building in front of the mosque together on the day of Eid.

[Emily Fang]

A tells the children he's brought to dance to put on a show for reporters who are watching to create this fiction of ethnic unity and that Uyghurs are free to celebrate religious holidays. Chinese state media broadcast videos of the dancing.

[A]

It seems that there were reporters everywhere. They took pictures and filmed the scene to show that we are living normally.

[Emily Fang]

A says it was all staged by the government.

[A]

Later we found out that those who came out of the mosque were retired Communist Party cadre who organized some pro government party members to pray at the mosque.

[Emily Fang]

A sort of laughs in disbelief as he recalls this event. For us.

[A]

We witnessed with our own eyes that the government was propagandizing to the international community that religious rights were being protected here.

[Emily Fang]

We requested comment from China's Foreign Ministry, and in response it sent a statement saying Western media is slandering China's governance policies in Xinjiang. It also said the legal rights of the Uyghur ethnic group have been fully protected. We're still waiting for comment from the Public Security Ministry. But for A, what he saw at the mosque that day, it was his breaking point. He does not want to do this work anymore. And he started to look for ways out of Xinjiang. He finds out if you can get a job outside of Xinjiang and you can register your identification card elsewhere, elsewhere you might be able to apply for a passport and leave China. So he came up with a plan. He had a friend running a school training kids to use computers in the southwestern Chinese city of Chengdu, and his friend agreed to hire him as a teacher in 2020. Once he was outside of Xinjiang, A says he began to realize what a mental cage it had been, working and living there, one he had helped hoped to create. Since A's time in the camps, the security measures in the Xinjiang region appeared to have eased a bit, and China claims the camps have been closed. But recent reports out of the region suggest many of the sites remain and detentions continue. When he reflects on his time teaching in the detention camps. And A says he's struck by how easy it was to get people to turn on one another through fear alone.

[A]

We would gather a large number of people and tell them if you confess, we'll give leniency and let you go. If you don't confess, we will start arresting you in two or three days. Then people would start coming to the station in droves to confess out of fear.

[Emily Fang]

And that's all it took for people to panic.

[A]

There was a feeling that the government knew everything they did. So when a policeman arrested someone and asked him if he had done this or that we knew, he would confess everything he did since birth and give up four, five or even seven or eight people to save himself.

[Emily Fang]

In 2023, A managed to leave China using his new identity documents. For now, he's in Istanbul, but hopes to settle elsewhere and start a new life. During our interview with A, I kept wondering what Abdueli thought of A's story. After all, Abdueli was jailed by people not unlike A. So I asked Abdoulaye, after we returned from our trip to Turkey, what it was like to hear from someone who had been on the other side in the camps.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

He told me the story just like happened to somewhere else, not our hometown, somebody else, not us, with detachment.

[Emily Fang]

Abdoulaye means A had described what had happened to him. But what bothered Abdueli is he had not taken any responsibility for what what he had done.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

Like. I asked him one question that how can you become a police after you stayed in the camp as a teacher? You have experienced those torture, those humiliation, those indoctrination, and how can you become a police? And he told me very naturally that what can I do? That's the job I can find. I have to feed myself, I have to support my family. It reminded me this indoctrination worked really well. How people accepted the reality that easily.

[Emily Fang]

Abdoulaye thought A should repent.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

Just confess what you have done. Just tell me it's wrong.

[Emily Fang]

I think he does feel bad.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

Yeah, of course. Of course he does feel bad. But he told part of the truth, but not all of the truth.

[Emily Fang]

Do you see this man as a victim himself?

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

Yes, his victim himself. Because of he didn't realize what he has done is wrong. That's the biggest victimhood. How can you do this? How can you arrest your brothers and sisters? Yes, I can understand as a scholar, but I can't understand as a victim, as a waker. I can't.

[Emily Fang]

No. But this policeman did come forward. He did tell us his story finally. I hope that in some way is a way for him to repent.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

Yeah, yeah, he did like he did.

[Emily Fang]

Abdueli says that's one step towards telling Uyghurs stories to the world.

[Abdoulaye Ayoob]

We have enough evidence, but we don't have enough people to tell the truth.

[Emily Fang]

The Couchar family, the family we profiled whose kids were separated from them in China, is the reason why Abdoulaye and I set off on this journey. We wanted to understand the victims and the victimizers, but also the people in between who enable China's crackdown on Uyghurs. The Kuchar's initial hesitancy and the complicated relationship the people we met along the way have with China made me realize how hard it is to do what you think is the right thing. There's immense moral inertia and, frankly, confusion about what should be done. Ultimately, the Couchars did speak out, sharing their story with NPR first, but they haven't gotten their fairy tale ending. Abd Latif Kuchar was finally able to find his kids and get them out of China, but his wife, Maryam, remains in a Chinese prison. He's now battling cancer. When I last saw Abdul Latif at his istanbul home in October 2023, he was recovering from major surgery. His health was poor, but he wanted to leave a message with us. Abdoulaye asked Abdul Latif what he'd say if he had a chance to see his wife Maryam again. Abdul Ateef says it's impossible to to express everything he wants to. He says if he could go back to Xinjiang again, he'd tell her, don't lose hope, that, God willing, they will meet again. And with his health failing, his big dreams are for his children. He hopes they grow up without losing their sense of identity. For them to know who they are, where they come from and where they are headed.

[Kelly McEvers]

This is the final episode of the Black Gate, a collaboration with NPR's International Desk. The series was reported by correspondent Emily Fang, with translation help from Abdoulaye Ayub. Adelina Lanciannis produced this episode. It was edited by Jenny Schmidt. Katie Simon is our supervising editor. Liana Simstrom is our supervising producer. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Dee Dee Skanke and vincent knee of NPR's international desk. Uyghur translations by Akita Juma Uyghur Abdullah Arslan Hidayat and Babar Ilchi recorded the voiceovers you hear in this episode. Fact checking by William Chase. Mastering by Kwei C. Lee and Gilly Moon. Music by Ramtin Arablouei. Thanks to our managing editor of Standards and Practices, Tony Cavan, and to Micah Ratner for legal support and a big thanks to our Embedded plus supporters. Embedded is where we do ambitious long form journalism at NPR and Embedded plus helps us do that work. Supporters also get to listen to every Embedded series sponsor free, including the next one that's coming up in this feed. Find out [e-mail] embedded or find the Embedded channel in Apple. And thanks for listening.

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