We Keep Us Safe: Pocket’s World

Summary

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Embedded, NPR

Episode: "We Keep Us Safe: Pocket’s World"

Date: July 2, 2026
Reporters: Sydney Brownstone, Will James, with Seattle Times and KUOW

Episode Overview

This emotionally charged episode investigates the last days of Antonio Mays Jr.—known as Pocket or Rico—a 16-year-old protester killed at the Capitol Hill Occupied Protest (CHOP) in Seattle during summer 2020. Through extensive reporting, interviews with friends, family, and witnesses, and the discovery of Antonio’s music and online presence, the episode seeks to unearth who Antonio really was, what led him to CHOP, and how rumors and conflicting narratives obscured his true story.

The focus is on unraveling contested facts about his character, examining the rumors that swirled after his death, and allowing those who actually knew Antonio to speak, aiming to reclaim the fuller, more complicated reality of his life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Death of Antonio at CHOP

• The episode opens by contextualizing the atmosphere at CHOP: an increasingly chaotic environment filled with rumors and violence ([00:34]-[01:15]).
• Sydney Brownstone: “By the time Antonio Mays Jr. arrived, the more dangerous side had prevailed.” ([00:34])
• Tensions and fear among protesters, particularly following violence against young Black men ([00:42]).
• Protesters and some social media voices frame Antonio’s death as justified (with comments like “fuck around and find out” after his shooting), but this narrative is contested by those closest to him ([05:06]-[05:15]).

2. Antonio's Public Voice: His Words at CHOP

• A pivotal moment is revealed through video, showing Antonio at a CHOP protest, critiquing police training and the lack of real change:

  Antonio Mays Jr. (Rico/Pocket): “I wish that the police would have more supervision when it comes to their training...when they're on these streets, they disregard all of it. And that’s where the harassment steps in. And I’m tired of this.” ([02:43]-[02:56])

• Antonio is visibly impassioned, earning applause from the crowd; the moment is described as Antonio “speaking for the entire movement at CHOP” ([03:07]).

3. The Week Before: Rumors, Myths, and Grief

• The period leading up to Antonio's death becomes a swirl of speculations: accusations of gang activity, fights, car theft, and intentions to do harm.
• Interview with Ciara Walker (“Pocket’s world”)—who briefly formed close bonds with Antonio and others at CHOP—fuels yet complicates rumors about gang involvement ([07:23]-[08:48]).
• Ciara Walker: “He was kind of a bully. I’m not gonna lie.” ([09:44])
• Ciara also expresses doubt over the official story: “They don’t sit right with me.” and “So you think it was targeted? Yeah.” ([10:21]-[10:27])
• The episode notes Ciara’s unreliable timeline and limited acquaintance with Antonio, with his father expressing anger at those speaking as authorities on his son’s life.

  Antonio Mays Sr.: “The lies that those people up there told about my son, you know, anger me so much.” ([12:09])

4. The Stolen Jeep: Piecing Together the Crime

• Investigation into whether Antonio and his friend Robert West stole the white Jeep involved in the shooting.
• Car theft victim’s account: Details a violent mugging by two teenagers with a knife and pickaxe, leading to the theft of his Jeep ([14:16]-[15:19]).
• Police evidence (knife, stolen items) in the Jeep is inconclusive; the judge in a wrongful death suit dismisses the evidence as not directly relevant to Antonio’s killing ([21:50]-[22:06]).

5. Robert West’s Deposition: Gaps and Contradictions

• The only other survivor, Robert, suffered a brain injury and provides conflicting, unclear accounts under legal questioning ([16:24]-[21:08]).
• His memory is permanently compromised; some of his statements appear to echo police reports rather than add clarity ([20:01]-[20:24]).

6. Antonio’s Online World: The Music of Rico

• Reporters find Antonio’s BandLab (music-sharing) profile under the name Rico, a prolific and emotive songwriter ([24:21]-[25:24]).
• Songs give insight into Antonio’s state of mind: writing about struggle, community, and resistance—contradicting claims of him as a hardened criminal.
  • Notable lyrics in “Clear Visions”:

    “Because the color of my skin, they saying it’s a sin... now I’m sitting here fearing for the safety of my kin... to the day that we equal, I will speak with my people, best believe that there will be a sequel...” ([25:55])

• Friends from all over the U.S., discovered through BandLab, describe him as supportive, goofy, ambitious, and not involved in gangs ([27:44]-[28:41]).

  Friend: “He was never the type of person that, like, wanted to be a gang member. No, absolutely not. That’s not what he stood for.” ([30:23])

7. Gang Rumors Revisited: Context and Contradiction

• Some friends acknowledge Antonio enjoyed “gangster rap” and wore red (associated with the Bloods gang), but universally say gang identity was performative, not real ([30:12]-[31:19]).

  Friend: “Songs are songs, people lie to get famous all the time... he just wanted to be an artist.” ([30:46])

8. Impressionistic Portraits: Struggles and Dreams

• Through friends’ interviews, a complex picture emerges: Antonio was idealistic, creative, frustrated by racism, but also struggling with depression and arguments with his father ([32:42]-[33:12]).
• Intended to meet friends IRL in Seattle as part of his protest journey but ended up isolated at CHOP ([33:39]-[34:08]).
• His last phone call to best friend Dre (“I still wish I’d picked that phone up”) is particularly poignant ([34:36]-[35:01]).
• Dre describes Antonio’s consuming fear “that racism would catch up to him”:

  “He said in multiple songs that he wouldn’t make it past 18...and then...he actually didn’t get to see 18.” ([35:09]-[35:40])

9. What Was Lost, What Remains

• The episode closes on the tragedy of Antonio’s unresolved identity—caught between promise and rumor, never to fulfill any single fate.

  “He was still trying on different identities, and he was killed before he settled on one, before he got to define himself.” ([37:49])

• The search for truth and justice, and the legacy Antonio left in music and memory, persist among friends and family.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Antonio Mays Jr. at CHOP:

  “At some point, we’re going to fight back, but you’re pushing us to the edge.” ([02:56])

• Ciara Walker on rumors:

  “He was kind of a bully. I’m not gonna lie.” ([09:44])
  “So you think it was targeted? Yeah.” ([10:27])

• Antonio’s father on rumor-mongering:

  “The lies that those people up there told about my son, you know, anger me so much.” ([12:09])

• Antonio’s lyrics:

  “Because the color of my skin, they saying it’s a sin... I will speak with my people, best believe that there will be a sequel...” ([25:55])

• BandLab friend:

  “He was never the type of person that, like, wanted to be a gang member. No, absolutely not. That’s not what he stood for.” ([30:23])

• Dre (best friend):

  “He said in multiple songs that he wouldn’t make it past 18...and then...he actually didn’t get to see 18.” ([35:09]) “If I would never said that, then he’d probably still be here. I just hope he’s proud of the person I’ve become.” ([36:43])

• Will James, on Antonio’s fate:

  “He was still trying on different identities, and he was killed before he settled on one, before he got to define himself.” ([37:49])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:34] – Setting the tone: Danger, division, and Antonio’s impending death at CHOP
• [02:30] – Antonio’s speech at a protest
• [07:23] – Ciara Walker’s interview and family disputes over narrative
• [14:16] – Car theft victim’s testimony
• [16:24] – Robert West’s deposition and memory gaps
• [24:21] – The discovery of Antonio’s BandLab and friends
• [30:12] – Discussion of Bloods/Red clothing/gang validation
• [32:42] – BandLab friends, mental health struggles, Antonio’s dreams
• [35:09] – Dre’s reflection: “He wouldn’t make it past 18”
• [37:49] – Reflection: Antonio’s unknowable futures
• [38:33] – Preview of the next episode: New video evidence surfaces

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Conclusion

This episode meticulously untangles the murky, rumor-laden story behind Antonio Mays Jr.'s last days. Instead of reducing him to a symbol or a set of accusations, “Pocket’s World” reconstructs a nuanced, human portrait of a talented, troubled teen seeking belonging and justice in tumultuous times—and raises new questions about the true cost of violence and the narratives we use to justify it.

Listen to original tracks, see video evidence, and join the ongoing search for answers at: npr.org/chop ([40:07])

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Rivian, makers of the all electric three row R1S SUV and the always capable R1T pickup designed with the planet and future generations in mind. Learn more or schedule a demo [e-mail] before we start.

[Will James]

A note that this episode contains coarse and explicit language as well as the sound of gun violence.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Previously on We Keep Us Safe.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

Do black lives matter to the ethnic?

[Narrator/Host]

We didn't kick them out.

[Sydney Brownstone]

They abandoned this space.

[Will James]

Chop existed for three weeks. By the time Antonio Mays Jr. Arrived, the more dangerous side had prevailed.

[Ciara Walker]

Do not walk around in the dark. It is unsafe.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

The whole space felt darker and angrier.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Two black teens had been shot. One of them was dead.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Enough is enough.

[Will James]

Enough killing is enough.

[Sydney Brownstone]

His name was Antonio Mays Jr.

[Will James]

Protesters at CHOP said he was in the white Jeep attacking them when he was killed.

[Sydney Brownstone]

It's that white car that's been circling around shooting more shots into tents. Antonio Sr. Doesn't know what Antonio was doing during his days at chop, but he doesn't believe the protesters narrative.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

He's telling me he's gonna make me proud. He was going to accomplish something.

[Ciara Walker]

I remember him saying something about, like, his friends and not wanting to seem like a pussy or whatever. And I told him, you have to not give a fuck about what other people think about you.

[Will James]

On June 26, 2020, three days before Antonio Mays Jr. Was killed, a small crowd gathers on a street corner in Chop.

[Ciara Walker]

Hey, hey.

[Will James]

Okay, let them talk.

[Narrator/Host]

Let them talk.

[Will James]

We've got a video. This moment.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

Yes, of course, we understand that some

[Narrator/Host]

of these changes will take time, but

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

there are certain things on those demands that are immediately actionable.

[Will James]

It shows David Lewis, one of the breakout leaders of the protests that summer, talking about the movement's goals.

[Sydney Brownstone]

A part of this is proving to

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Seattle, to the world, really, that we

[Sydney Brownstone]

can do these things ourselves.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

We don't want to look like.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Right next to David, there is a tall kid wearing a black hoodie. He has a gray baseball cap and he's wearing a medical mask around his mouth and nose. This kid is Antonio Mays Jr. And he taps David on the shoulder and indicates he wants to speak.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I have a question.

[Antonio Mays Jr. (Rico/Pocket)]

I have a question. Are you guys trying to change the system as well?

[Will James]

People in this crowd start pointing their phones and their recorders at him as he delivers a critique of policing.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I would like to make it known

[Antonio Mays Jr. (Rico/Pocket)]

that I wish that the police would have more supervision when it comes to their training to make sure that they're actually following their training.

[Will James]

And what he's saying is, training is not enough to make real change, because

[Antonio Mays Jr. (Rico/Pocket)]

when they're on these streets, they disregard all of it. And that's where the harassment steps in. And I'm tired of this. And at some point, we're going to fight back, but you're pushing us to the edge.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And the crowd really responds to this. They start applauding when he speaks. And for a few seconds, it seems like Antonio is speaking for the entire movement at chop.

[Will James]

Our team discovered this video of Antonio by combing through dozens of hours of live streams recorded by Omari Salisbury, the journalist who covered the protests that summer.

[Sydney Brownstone]

The Antonio we see on this video really matches the version of him that his dad told us about. This idealistic kid who wrote the letter explaining why he wanted to go join the protests when he left home, and this kid who wanted to make a better world.

[Will James]

But we've also heard Antonio got into a fight the night he died, that he was angry. And later that night, protesters thought he was attacking CHOP in a white Jeep. Aside from these brief glimpses, the last week of Antonio's life has been a mystery.

[Sydney Brownstone]

People have filled in that missing week or whatever. We don't know about Antonio with lots of rumors. I've heard accounts, a torrent of speculation, so many theories, they came up repeatedly in interviews.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

He was always starting fights with people left and right.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

He had gotten so aggressive.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Rumors about his intentions, about his character. I heard a lot of rumors about

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

there being gang involvement, gang initiation, doing

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

donuts and waving guns, shooting into the sky, trying to be wild and have fun.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Some of them have been used to excuse or justify his killing. On Facebook, right after the shooting, one protester posted, fuck around and find out, and then added, very quickly and cleanly dealt with by security.

[Will James]

What a shot. Someone else responded.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Another said, couldn't have done it better myself.

[Will James]

Watching that video of Antonio, it's hard to reconcile the kid being cheered on by the crowd with the person who'd be shot and killed days later. How did he go from fighting for the cause to being viewed as a threat to the camp?

[Sydney Brownstone]

So what happened to Antonio at chop? We spent months retracing Antonio's steps because we realized understanding his life leading up to CHOP is key to unlocking what took place the night he died. From NPR's embedded with KUOW and the Seattle Times, this is we keep us safe. I'm Sydney Brownstone.

[Will James]

I'm Will James. This is episode four.

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[Sydney Brownstone]

There's been one interview that has played an outsized role in defining who Antonia was at chop. It's with a homeless protester named Cierra Walker and it was recorded on a Seattle street just days after the shooting.

[Ciara Walker]

I'm Antonio and Robert Street's sister.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Ciara tells a journalist from the Daily Mail that she was part of a street family that included Antonio and his best friend at chop, Robert West.

[Will James]

Ciara says she spent a lot of

[Sydney Brownstone]

time with them and she calls Antonio by his nickname at Chop, Pocket.

[Ciara Walker]

I just want to say it's forever Pocket's world.

[Sydney Brownstone]

In this interview, Ciara brings up a

[Ciara Walker]

rumor so about Chop saying that my little brothers was in a gang, that

[Sydney Brownstone]

Antonio had a gang affiliation.

[Will James]

We'd heard this same rumor on social media. People were posting online right after the shooting that the boys were doing a gang drive by, that they were part of the Bloods and that self appointed shop security had prevented a mass shooting by firing back.

[Sydney Brownstone]

We wanted to learn more about this. So I found Sierra on Facebook in 2025 and I called her up. So Ciara, can you tell me how you met Antonio?

[Ciara Walker]

There was four young niggas, young boys that was protesting and I just got attached to Antonio.

[Sydney Brownstone]

She confirmed Antonio arrived in Seattle as a protester.

[Ciara Walker]

He told me he was just in Seattle protesting because his dad wouldn't let him protest in California.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Ciara is now in her 30s. But from talking to her it seems like she developed an attachment to Antonio that was almost like they were the same age.

[Ciara Walker]

You see Paque, you see me? Like what?

[Sydney Brownstone]

What about him stood out to you?

[Ciara Walker]

Like how he was a ride or die. He didn't play a box. Who he called family.

[Sydney Brownstone]

What does that mean?

[Ciara Walker]

Like I got into it with some females and he deaded it. He's like, look, you guys are not going to jail my sister. And he deaded the argument.

[Sydney Brownstone]

This is someone who stuck up for her in fights.

[Ciara Walker]

He didn't let me get into it with nobody.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And not only that, she said that he could pick fights too.

[Ciara Walker]

My brother was doing dumb shit, trying to fight with everybody. Trying to. He was kind of a bully. I'm not gonna lie.

[Sydney Brownstone]

It was kind of weird to hear that from someone who really seems to care about Antonio.

[Will James]

It did remind me though of the story we heard of Antonio getting into a fight on the night he was killed.

[Sydney Brownstone]

I asked Ciara about that night. What do you think of the story? That it was just like chop security at the barriers, who got scared and shot up the car Trying to like defend the tents around the precinct.

[Ciara Walker]

They don't sit right with me.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Like you don't believe it?

[Ciara Walker]

Nope.

[Sydney Brownstone]

So you think it was targeted?

[Ciara Walker]

Yeah.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Why would someone want to get Antonio?

[Ciara Walker]

Because the type of person he was starting fights, trying to be a gang member and he wasn't.

[Sydney Brownstone]

What, what gang was he trying to join?

[Ciara Walker]

Blood.

[Sydney Brownstone]

How did you find out about that?

[Ciara Walker]

Because the people that he was kicking it with was bloods. Like he, he put in work for the streets. I guess that's what they were saying. That's why he got killed.

[Will James]

What is Ciara implying here? Is she saying Antonio was trying to be in a gang or that he was trying to front, like he was trying to act like he was in a gang?

[Sydney Brownstone]

You know, I still really don't know. And I'm not sure Ciara knows either. When she talks about people saying he put in work for the streets, it seems like she's just repeating a rumor she's heard.

[Will James]

So what do you make of Ciara?

[Sydney Brownstone]

Well, she said something that is definitely not true. She said she knew Antonio for months when in reality she could have only known him for a matter of days because that's how long he was in Seattle. But we have talked to other people who seem to be confused about how long Chop lasted.

[Will James]

Yeah, we gotta say Antonio's dad has told us he's really mad that someone who knew Antonio for just a brief period of time is claiming to be his family and talking like some kind of authority.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

The lies that those people up there told about my son, you know, anger me so much.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

People get hungry for fame and they want some spotlight.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

They want to try to get whatever

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

kind of shine they can so they'll make up lies.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I'm so proud of my son, and

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

he's none of what any of those people say.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

That just really makes me boil over the top because to say that you're

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

my family, come on, man.

[Sydney Brownstone]

But I don't want to dismiss everything Sierra is saying out of hand. Police believed that gangs were a big problem at chop, and they talked about this in internal emails at the time. On the same day that Antonio was killed, a police intelligence report said chop, quote, has become a center of lawlessness, unquote, for gang members. This report mentions a couple of local Seattle gangs, but not the Bloods. And there's one more thing Sierra told me, and it's about the Jeep that Antonio and Robert were later shot in.

[Ciara Walker]

The streets are saying that he beat somebody up and robbed them and that's how he got the Jeep.

[Sydney Brownstone]

She heard the boys ended up inside the white Jeep because they stole it.

[Will James]

From the very beginning, we've known that the white Jeep Antonio and his friend were riding in when they were shot had been stolen. The question that's been unresolved for years is were Antonio and Robert the ones who stole it? And if so, how did that play into the shooting?

[Sydney Brownstone]

We tried to talk to the guy whose car was stolen. He declined to speak with us, but through court records, we were able to get our hands on a video of an interview he did with an investigator.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

So why don't we just start what happened tonight with regards to Stone car? Sure.

[Car Theft Victim]

I'll just give you the story.

[Sydney Brownstone]

In the video, the victim tells police he was walking home to his apartment around 2:30 in the morning, not long before the shooting happened.

[Car Theft Victim]

As I was walking along, two guys just ran across the street and started accosting me.

[Sydney Brownstone]

He says that two teenagers emerge from the park with two weapons, a knife and a pickaxe.

[Car Theft Victim]

And all I hear is like, where the fuck is the money? And they start, like, shoving me around. And so I hand them my wallet and they grab my phone and they smash it with what looks like be a pickaxe. I managed to run away, but they managed to get me in the leg with the pickaxe.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And as they start roughing him up

[Car Theft Victim]

he says, guys, my Jeep is right there. Just take my fucking Jeep.

[Sydney Brownstone]

It's parked just like a block away from the park.

[Car Theft Victim]

You know, they grabbed my keys in my bag and ran off with it, and I fell to the ground. At that point, it's a little bit of a blur.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Once his attackers run off, the victim yells for help and chop medics start treating him for his wounds.

[Car Theft Victim]

And so they put a tourniquet on my leg. And while they were doing that, I heard Jeep roll off.

[Will James]

In this interview with police, he says one of his attackers was wearing a mask.

[Car Theft Victim]

They appear to be not white. They were, but not quite black.

[Will James]

And he says one of them had an accent.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Accents like southern accents.

[Car Theft Victim]

I wonder if it was like Ethiopian or something like that.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Antonio has dark skin and Robert is lighter skinned, but they're both black.

[Will James]

And also neither of them had Ethiopian accents or anything like an Ethiopian accent. So did he mishear them? Were the boys using fake accents during the robbery or was it not them at all? The most obvious person to ask about all this is Robert west, who was 14 years old when he survived the shooting later that night. But Robert suffered a brain injury in that shooting. And when we first reached out, his lawyer told us he wasn't in any shape to talk with us.

[Sydney Brownstone]

But then we finally got our chance to hear from Robert. Last year, after Antonio's dad filed his wrongful death lawsuit against the city of Seattle, an attorney for the city interviewed him. We are on the record. The time is approximately 10:13am this is the beginning of the deposition of Mr. Robert west, and we got our hands on the video. Council, will you please introduce yourself who you're representing today?

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

My name is Alexander Nikin. I'm representing the city of Seattle.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Evan Oshan. I represent Robert west today.

[Will James]

In the video, the camera's pointed squarely at Robert. He's about 20 years old now, and you can see the permanent damage left behind by the bullet that he took to the head.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

Do you have any hobbies?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I like working on cars. I wanted to be a mechanic.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

Are you working to be a mechanic?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I mean, I can't no more. My career is done for. I wanted to. It was my biggest dream.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Robert struggles with seizures.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I mean, if I get too nervous, it's possible I have a procedure.

[Sydney Brownstone]

He says he has significant memory loss and still lives at home with his mother, who helps him with his medical needs.

[Will James]

The deposition drags on for almost three hours, and it takes a long time to get to the night of the shooting. Robert's lawyer keeps interrupting to object to the city attorney's questions. He objects almost 200 times.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Objection.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

Badgering.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Objection. Relevance. Objection. Objection. Objection. Harassing. You're harassing my client.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

I'm harassing you at this point, Mr. Ocean, because you constantly are making the same objections.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Let the record reflect that counsel is attempting to harass me.

[Will James]

Before the deposition turns to the shooting, the city attorney asks Robert about his actions in the year before chop. Whether he had stolen two different cars, whether he was involved in a gas station robbery.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I'm instructing him not to answer criminal questions of when he was 13 years old.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

You have no basis for doing that.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

He was a minor when he was 13 years old.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

And are you his guardian, sir?

[Sydney Brownstone]

We couldn't find any records to confirm these allegations. But in any case, Robert says he doesn't recall what the city attorney is talking about.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I do not remember.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Then the questions turned to chop.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

When did you meet Antonio Mays?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I couldn't tell you, ma'.

[Antonio Mays Jr. (Rico/Pocket)]

Am.

[Ciara Walker]

Okay.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

And how often did you hang out with Antonio Mase?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Objection. Vague. From what I remember, I was with that dude every day.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Robert says he doesn't remember much from the night of the shooting because of that brain injury.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

See the bullet holes? I got shot. Went straight to my face. This is the frontal lobe. It's the most important part of your brain. Now, how would you like me to remember anything?

[Sydney Brownstone]

But earlier in his recovery, Robert did seem to remember something. The city attorney refers to a piece of paperwork from a brain rehab facility Robert was at a few years ago. It says Robert told rehab staff he stole a vehicle with a friend who died.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

Do you recall telling your doctors that you got shot at after stealing a car with your friends?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Objection. Seems fascinating. Hmm. You want me to tell you? Yeah. Is that what you're looking for?

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

Do you recall telling that to your doctors?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Oh, ma', am, I don't recall.

[Will James]

Robert says someone else handed him the keys to the White Sheep. And he says the man who gave him those keys was Ethiopian.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

An Ethiopian?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

What was the Ethiopian's name?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I could not tell you that.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

How do you know he was Ethiopian?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I mean, his appearance, his accent. But who knows? He could be something else.

[Sydney Brownstone]

The city attorney then asks Robert if he looked at what the car theft victim told the police, that one of his muggers had an Ethiopian accent. She seems to be implying that Robert is making his story match the victims.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

Did you review the police statement in preparation for your deposition today?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

No mail.

[Will James]

Then just as this interview gets deeper into the night of the shooting, do

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

you have an answer, Mr. West?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I need some water for that procedure. You got it. You got it, you got it. I think we need to go off the record.

[Narrator/Host]

Yep.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

You okay, Robert?

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

Off the record.

[Will James]

And that ends the deposition. So did Antonio and Robert steal the Jeep? Well, when Antonio Sr. S wrongful death lawsuit went to trial, we learned a little more. Police presented evidence they found in and around the Jeep the morning after the shooting. This evidence suggested Antonio and Robert may have stolen it. Police found a knife like the one the car theft victim described and some items that were stolen from him.

[Sydney Brownstone]

But the judge noted this evidence was inconclusive, and he dismissed it because he didn't see how the car theft was connected to Antonio's death. In the end, the trial never resolved the question of who stole the Jeep. We weren't able to either.

[Will James]

This question of who Antonio was and what he was doing the night he was killed has been used to justify or excuse his death. People have said he was trying to join a gang, that he stole a car, that he was trying to attack people with that car.

[Sydney Brownstone]

We wanted to know, was Antonio the type of person who could be a threat to Chop or did protesters have it all wrong?

[Will James]

So we went looking for people who knew Antonio before Chop.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

He didn't want to be no gangster or nothing like that. He just wanted to be artists.

[Sydney Brownstone]

That's after a break.

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[Sydney Brownstone]

when we first started investigating Antonio's death, we discovered a whole other part of his life that changed our understanding of who he was. We went looking for his digital footprint, and that led us to a profile on this website where people post their original songs. It's called bandlab.

[Will James]

If Pocket was one of Antonio's identities, this website introduced us to another one, Rico, which was the name he went by on BandLab.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And he was a prolific poster. Lots of songs he sang and wrote himself.

[Antonio Mays Jr. (Rico/Pocket)]

I'm trying to be with you Baby girl you a whole mood I'm trying to vibe with you so let's see what it's going to do I'm trying

[Will James]

to vibe with you Finding this profile was a revelation. It was a repository of things that he created and put into the world to represent himself and how he was feeling.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And it's also like a diary in some ways. It felt like maybe the closest we could get to where Antonio's mind was in the weeks and months before he was killed.

[Antonio Mays Jr. (Rico/Pocket)]

Would you ride with me?

[Sydney Brownstone]

About a week before Antonio left for Seattle, he posted a song on his

[Antonio Mays Jr. (Rico/Pocket)]

bandwag page, Clear Visions, Cloudy days, sun

[Sydney Brownstone]

missing it was called Clear Visions. And this is the last song that Antonio would post.

[Antonio Mays Jr. (Rico/Pocket)]

Sitting here like what's the point of it all? As a kid I just really wanted to go stand tall have a fall with all my people with all my peers Now I understand they want me to disappear Cause the color of my skin they saying it's a sin so now I'm sitting here fearing for the safety of my kin I cannot allow that I gotta go step back for all my people Imma have to go give that I'm delivering a message straight to your dome I hope that you receive it all the way home because the color of my skin yeah it's a blessing God told me to use it like a another weapon not to give hate but to just give love Cuz all lives really matter I'm never giving up to the day that we equal I will speak with my people best believe that there will be a

[Sydney Brownstone]

sequel look it's about moving forward. It's about understanding these limits placed on you by society and overcoming them and fighting against them. Ultimately, it's a song about resistance.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Invisible wings open wide till it's touching

[Sydney Brownstone]

the sky I'm the truth I Ain't living the lie.

[Will James]

One thing we've heard about Antonio is that at home in Southern California, his social circle was really small. He was homeschooled during the last year of his life, and a family member said he was almost always with his dad or his little sister, that he didn't really have a lot of friends outside of his family.

[Sydney Brownstone]

But it turns out that was wrong. Antonio did have friends, and we find posts from them on BandLab long after Antonio has died, grieving him, saying RIP Rico and posting songs in his remembrance. I called a few of them up and learned they were spread out across the United States.

[Ciara Walker]

I'm in Florence, Alabama.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I live in the Chicago area, living

[Sydney Brownstone]

in North Carolina, and they were teenagers when they knew him well.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I grew up with Rico as a childhood friend.

[Sydney Brownstone]

They tell me that Antonio was a goofy guy who was kind of like an older brother figure.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

He didn't take anything serious. He was always laughing.

[Ciara Walker]

No matter if he was going through something or he had a bad day, he was always there to hear what you had to say.

[Sydney Brownstone]

He would encourage people about their music.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

He was just trying to be nice because I was, like, 13. There's no way it was that good. He wanted to make music, to make

[Ciara Walker]

a change in the world. Let his voice be heard.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Who are some of his favorite artists?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

YG and Nisbehusel. Tupac was one of his greatest inspirations because Tupac wasn't just a rapper, he was an activist.

[Sydney Brownstone]

He ended up forging these really meaningful connections with people.

[Ciara Walker]

He told me he liked helping his

[Sydney Brownstone]

dad cook, and he made promises to see them.

[Ciara Walker]

I actually was going to have my quinceanera, and we were like, you're coming to my quinceanera no matter what. He was like, I'll buy you a teddy bear. And he wasn't there for it.

[Sydney Brownstone]

He didn't come to your quince.

[Alexander Nikin (City Attorney)]

Yeah.

[Ciara Walker]

Because.

[Sydney Brownstone]

The month before Antonio leaves for Seattle, he also posts another song called Whoopin'. It sounds like gangster rap.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

We shooting them shots like we swishing.

[Sydney Brownstone]

At the end of the song, there's a su. It's a bloods call out. And also the name of a song by one of his favorite rappers, yg. It's language that suggests there's some kind of blood, gang affiliation or aspiration. I ask Antonio's friends about the rumors about gang involvement and also about the fact that in a lot of pictures we see of Antonio, he's wearing red, which is the blood's color. Did he ever talk about that? And what did that mean to him with the red?

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

I knew for a fact that was just his favorite color.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Universally, they tell me that Antonio was not a gang member.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

He was never the type of person that, like, wanted to be a gang member. No, absolutely not. That's not what he stood for.

[Ciara Walker]

He was a sweetheart. It doesn't seem like him talking about

[Sydney Brownstone]

being in a gang or using gang symbols was something that kids just did online, trying to become rappers or get big in the music industry.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

He didn't want to be no gangster, nothing like that. He just wanted to be artists.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

Songs or songs people lie to get famous all the time.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

And everybody claimed to be gangs back

[Ciara Walker]

then, but really nobody was in them

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

unless you were in them. You know, he was one of those

[Sydney Brownstone]

kids that was, you know, trying to

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

keep up with everybody else.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Talking to these kids from BandLab gives us a way to see multiple versions of Antonio existing at the same time. Both Pocket and Rico.

[Will James]

Right. You've got to wonder if these rumors about gang affiliation, these rumors that for some people have justified Antonio's death, were all just a result of a kid who was trying on different identities like so many other people at chop.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And did a Dangerous place change how a sensitive, idealistic 16 year old showed up there?

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

Me and Antonio, we. We kind of met through the whole music thing.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Andre Colbert would describe himself as Antonio's best friend. He lived in Maryland, and he was 14 when he met Antonio on BandLab.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

It really just started off as like, you know, a whole online friendship, music type of friendship. And throughout the entire quarantine, we just started getting closer. We laughed and cried together.

[Sydney Brownstone]

One thing that a lot of these Bandlab kids had in common is that their schools were shut down because of the pandemic. So their social lives were in some ways limited to the Internet, and they were struggling with that.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

It was just a repeated cycle, just doing the same thing every day. Waking up, eating, taking a shower, recording a song, and then right back to it the next day.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Andre, who also goes by Dre, was able to reveal a part of Antonio that we hadn't known about.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

He was going through a lot mentally. We both were.

[Sydney Brownstone]

What kind of stuff was he going through?

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

Depression and anxiety.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Even though we hear from some of Antonio's friends that he was really close with his dad, Dre tells us that he also got into big fights with him. Like, what kind of conflicts would they have?

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

They would get into, like, big arguments, like, really bad ones. They would, like, bother him really bad. Like, they would bother his mental state.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Antonio's dad was really protective of him. He tried to shelter Antonio from bad influences. He didn't allow him to have a phone. And we know he didn't want Antonio to join the protests.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

You know, some dads want the best for their sons. My dad was hard on me, too, around that time, and, you know, I didn't see that him being hard on me was him just showing how much he loved me until after I graduated.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Dre said one of the reasons that Antonio was planning to go to Seattle was to meet up with another BandLab friend who lived in the area, and Dre had planned on joining him.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

I was thinking of doing the same. I was happy to finally go and try to meet my best friend that I've been talking to for the past couple months.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Dre didn't end up going, so Antonio went alone.

[Will James]

And he said, you know, Antonio's reason for going to Seattle was to protest

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

because he really was big on that. Like, he was big on ending racism and stuff.

[Sydney Brownstone]

When Antonio gets to Seattle, he doesn't end up meeting any bandlab friends. He stays at Chop.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

I had, like, a bad feeling. I was like, yo, I think you should go home, bro. I tried to get him to go back, and, you know, he just felt like it was already too late. And he said he would call me back once his phone was charged. And I was like, all right, bro, be safe.

[Will James]

So Antonio did have a phone?

[Sydney Brownstone]

Apparently he did, but his dad didn't know about it.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

I think that was the last time we spoke on the phone. And I think, like, the morning or night right before he died, he called me, and I woke up, and that was the last call I got. And to this day, I still wish I'd picked that phone up.

[Sydney Brownstone]

You couldn't have known.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

Yeah, I'm still sick to my stomach about it.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Dre remembers this thing Antonio would talk about a lot.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

His fear of racism and how it would probably catch up to him one day. Like, he didn't want his life to be taken because of racism. Like, he was real. He was scared. I feel like he knew his time was coming, though, because he said in multiple songs that he wouldn't make it past 18. And, you know, I. You know, I tried to tell him multiple times, like, yo, get that thought out of your head. And then, you know, what happened, happened. He actually didn't get to see 18.

[Sydney Brownstone]

What questions do you still have about what happened to Rico?

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

I just want to know who did it. I just want justice for him. Because it's been five years. There's no Way they haven't already identified who did. Shouldn't take this long. It's been five years.

[Sydney Brownstone]

This is a tough question, but how did his death affect you

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

terribly?

[Sydney Brownstone]

Dre says that Antonio was the first person he was really close to who had died, and he returned to school in person and was failing all of his classes.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

And it was just strictly off of that. And my parents couldn't figure. Figure it out. Like, I didn't go to class. I didn't just want to do anything.

[Sydney Brownstone]

He ended up graduating late because of his grief and his inability to perform academically at school while dealing with it.

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

As years went on like that, that's all I could think about, because if I would have never agreed to, yeah, you go down there, and I'll meet. I'll meet you. And if I would never said that, then he'd probably still be here. I just hope he's proud of the person I've become. That's really it. You know, everything I've done in the past five years, I've done it for him. I graduated high school for him because he never got to. So I'm just hoping he's proud of me.

[Will James]

After talking to people who knew Antonio for days and people who knew Antonio for years, we start to see all. All these different futures he might have had. He might have been a rapper. He might have inherited his dad's barbecue business. He might have written his own fantasy novels. Sure, there's a future where he might have gotten in trouble or became a famous activist, but what we're left with

[Sydney Brownstone]

is that Antonio will never get to have any of those futures. He was still trying on different identities, and he was killed before he settled on one, before he got to define himself. Discovering Antonio's secret band lab meant finding a whole new world of people whose lives were changed by his death. A world of people who, alongside his dad, were still waiting for answers about the night he died.

[Will James]

We already knew a few things from live streams of that night. Like, the chain of events seemed to start with the Jeep driving around erratically,

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

all crazy, like he was gonna hit someone.

[Will James]

Then gunshots start going off,

[Sydney Brownstone]

and the white Jeep crashes into a chopped barricade with Antonio and Robert inside.

[Will James]

Protesters say security members fired in self defense.

[Sydney Brownstone]

When you come in shooting, I don't think it's that much of a surprise

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

when you get shot back.

[Will James]

And once the car's crashed, we hear a voice say, oh, you're not dead, huh?

[Sydney Brownstone]

But we were about to find out. There were more videos of that night that weren't online.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

There is a handgun in that white sleeve and I think he's now firing

[Will James]

at the white Jeep that's right here. Oh, and this makes us realize we've got to turn back to people we've already interviewed. Hey Reshaila, this is will James from KoW. How you are to get to the truth of how Antonio died.

[Ciara Walker]

So our security team was not aiming to kill. That was not the goal. That was not the purpose. They were really trying to just stop that vehicle from hurting anybody.

[Sydney Brownstone]

That's on the next episode of We Keep Us Safe.

[Will James]

We've added a sample of Antonio's original music to our digital evidence locker online. You can check that out and also see the video of antonio speaking at CHOP on our website. That's npr.org CHOP

[Sydney Brownstone]

we keep us safe from NPR's embedded is a collaboration with the Seattle Times and KUOW. The series is reported and written by me, Sydney Brownstone, David Gutman and Will James.

[Will James]

This episode was edited by Luis Traias and Laura Grenias with support from Katie Simon.

[Sydney Brownstone]

It was produced by our senior producer, Adelina Lanciannis.

[Will James]

Additional reporting by Daveed Goodhertz, Omari Salisbury and Adelina Lancianise. Research and fundamental fact checking by Danya Solomon and Miyoko Wolf.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Robert Rodriguez mastered the episode music by

[Will James]

AudioSocket Blue Dot Sessions, Connor Moore from Seymour Sound, Jonathan David Barlow, Ramtin Arablouei, Tom Pyle in Running Dog Music, Tribe of Noise and Universal Music Production.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And a big thanks to our NPR supporters. Embedded is where we do ambitious long form journalism at npr and NPR helps keep that work going. Supporters also get to listen to every Embedded episode early. Find out [e-mail] if you'd like to email the show, you can reach [e-mail] I'm Sydney Brownstone. This is embedded from NPR. Thanks for listening.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

This message comes from IXL. IXL's level up diagnostic gives immediate benchmark results along with personalized action plans that link directly to IXL's skill practice. [e-mail] NPR this message comes from DSW with their semiannual sale starting now and featuring lots of deals at Designer Shoe Warehouse. They'll give you something to brag about like 40% off clearance in all DSW stores or an extra 10% off [e-mail] find shoes that get you at prices that get your budget dsw Let us surprise you

[Sydney Brownstone]

every episode of it's been a minute. NPR's what's Happening in Culture podcast starts by asking three who?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

How?

[Andre Colbert (Dre)]

Why now?

[Sydney Brownstone]

If the culture's asking it, we're talking about it at npr. We stand for your right to be curious and indulge your cultural curiosity. Follow it's been a minute wherever you get your podcasts and we'll break down the zeitgeisty topics that are filling your feedback.