We Keep Us Safe: Who Killed Antonio Mays Jr.?

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Keep Us Safe: Who Killed Antonio Mays Jr.?

Podcast: Embedded from NPR
Episode Air Date: June 11, 2026
Series Collaborators: The Seattle Times, KUOW
Reporters/Hosts: Will James, Sydney Brownstone
Description: The first episode in an eight-part investigative series exploring the fatal shooting of Antonio Mays Jr. inside Seattle’s Capitol Hill Occupied Protest (CHOP) in the summer of 2020—unpacking the chaotic events, conflicting narratives, and enduring silence that keep this case unsolved.

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Overview

This episode sets the stage for a deep investigation into the killing of 16-year-old Antonio Mays Jr. during one of the most high-profile "police-free" protest experiments in America. The reporters seek to unravel the mysterious circumstances of the night, challenge prevailing narratives, and explore how violence—and silence—came to occupy a space born from an anti-violence movement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background: The Summer of Protests and CHOP

• Setting: Amid nationwide protests after George Floyd's death, Seattle's Capitol Hill saw police abandon a precinct, leading to CHOP—a self-declared autonomous zone run by protesters.
• CHOP’s Promise: Seen as an "experiment" for an anti-police, self-sustaining society, with its own medic teams and armed security.
• Event: Three weeks into CHOP, gunfire erupts and Antonio Mays Jr., a Black teenager, is killed by those inside the protest space (00:16–03:00).

2. The Shooting and Immediate Reactions

• Chaos at the Scene: Sydney Brownstone describes the surreal scene: familiar Seattle sights giving way to barricades, crowds, and protesters screaming on a street now turned crime scene (02:00–03:37).
  • “It’s like stepping into a different universe.” — Sydney Brownstone [02:06]
• Initial Storyline: Witnesses and CHOP members describe Antonio (in a white Jeep) as driving erratically, possibly firing at the camp, prompting armed CHOP members to respond in self-defense (04:08–05:01).
• Certainty and Doubt: Sydney notes unease at how quickly the self-defense narrative hardened despite immense chaos.
  • “I felt really unnerved by the certainty among the people I talked to that protesters had acted in self-defense.” — Sydney Brownstone [05:01]

3. Antonio Mays Sr.’s Perspective

• A Father's Lawsuit: In 2023, Antonio’s father files a lawsuit challenging the protesters’ narrative, insisting his son came to support the protests, not to attack (06:06–07:07).
  • “The lies that those people up there told about my son angered me so much.” — Antonio Mays Sr. [06:25]
  • “I’m not a legal professional, but I think it’s common knowledge that it’s not legal to allow vigilantes to police their own zone.” — Antonio Mays Sr. [06:51]
• Seeking Answers: He received no substantial updates from authorities after 2020, expressing frustration at being left in the dark.
  • “These people did. This is what happened to your son. This is who’s responsible for it. This is the action that we took.” — Antonio Mays Sr. [17:23]

4. Portrait of Antonio Jr.

• Antonio’s Background:
  • A fantasy enthusiast, avid reader, close with his father through running a BBQ business, and educated in Black history and struggles (13:06–15:14).
    • “He used to love the Legend of Drizz.” — Antonio Mays Sr. [13:30]
    • “My son came to life at those [farmers’] markets.” — Antonio Mays Sr. [14:22]
  • Left home for Seattle inspired by the protests.
  • His father wrestles with guilt and grief, questioning what information he shared and whether he'd “given him too much information” ([11:55], [15:34]).

5. The Livestreamed Night & Circles of Silence

• Crowdsourced Evidence: The killing, and much of CHOP, was heavily documented via livestreams—yet years later no perpetrator was identified (18:37–19:48).
• Reviewing the Footage: Reporters painstakingly analyze three crucial livestreams:
  1. White Jeep drives erratically; shots heard (23:00–23:53).
  2. Jeep crashes during the shooting; voices taunt survivors (“Oh, you’re not dead. Want to get pistol whipped?”) [24:27].
  3. Aftermath: a man (never shown fully) is coached to pick up shell casings and hide evidence, with livestreamer Ashley Darrellis encouraging him (27:05–27:41).
     • “Unless you see any shells on the ground, pick those up, pocket them, take them home.” — Unidentified man [27:05]
     • “Hell yeah. No evidence.” — Ashley Darrellis [27:34]
• Ashley Darrellis:
  • Livestreamer/activist who filmed aftermath, believed large white man she saw was one of the shooters and tried to record evidence (29:31–31:16).
  • Later arrested (not charged) for "rendering criminal assistance”; claims police were less interested in shooters, more in identifying protesters (32:25–32:55).
    • “There’s stuff that’s happening that happened there that I’m not gonna, you know, divulge. But it’s like, what’s the number one rule of Fight Club?” — Ashley Darrellis [33:15]
    • “Obviously, everybody was walking around Chop with a cut… But what made him security besides the fact he had a gun? …Everybody at Chop was security there.” — Ashley Darrellis [33:58]

6. Barriers to Justice

• Code of Silence: Despite documentation, witnesses and participants refuse to name shooters—a “circle of silence” shielding individuals from either side (33:28–34:17).
• The Open Case with No Answers: Seattle Police claim the case is still open, but neither Antonio’s family nor reporters have received updates (17:00–17:43).
• Broader Questions Raised: The episode closes by foreshadowing deeper explorations:
  • How armed security became CHOP’s norm.
  • How the anti-violence zone enabled violence and then failed to deliver accountability.
  • “How did something so hopeful… end up turning into this circle of silence surrounding the killing of a black teenager?” — Sydney Brownstone [34:42]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It was an experiment in a different kind of world, with its own medical teams and its own armed security… But three weeks in, that experiment ended.” — Kelly McEvers [00:35]
• “I was just driving around all crazy… like he was going to hit someone.” — Eyewitnesses [04:23]
• “The only people I kind of know for sure were at the scene were the people who shot the videos. …Did they talk to anyone? Do they know who’s saying, ‘Do you want to get pistol whipped?’” — David Gutman [29:06]
• “We don’t talk about that stuff. …I feel quite confident there are people out there who know who did this shooting, but there are people who don’t want to talk about it and won’t talk about it.” — David Gutman [33:28]
• “Everybody at CHOP was security there.” — Ashley Darrellis [34:17]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:16–03:00 — Introduction: What was CHOP? How did it end in tragedy?
• 04:08–05:01 — First, unchallenged version: Protesters’ account of a self-defense shooting.
• 06:06–07:07 — Antonio Mays Sr.’s counter-narrative.
• 13:06–15:14 — Personal details about Antonio Jr., his ambitions, values, family.
• 17:00–18:04 — Police disengagement with the victim’s family.
• 22:26–31:16 — Re-examination of livestreams with David Gutman and Ashley Darrellis: reconstructing the timeline, identifying pivotal moments, and evidence destruction.
• 32:25–33:19 — Ashley Darrellis on her arrest and refusal to break the “Fight Club” code of silence within CHOP.
• 33:58–34:17 — Discussion of “everyone being security” and normalization of armed presence.
• 34:42–35:04 — Next episode preview: probing how hope and violence coexisted in CHOP.

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Flow & Tone

The episode is urgent and compassionate, blending investigative rigor with intimate storytelling. It foregrounds the pain, hope, and confusion felt by all central actors—especially Antonio’s bereaved father—and refuses easy explanations. Reporters demonstrate skepticism toward narratives hardened by chaos and self-preservation and maintain a clear-eyed, persistent pursuit of the truth.

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Additional Resources

• For live streams and evidence: npr.org/chop [35:19]

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Takeaway

This first episode lays the groundwork for a complex, multi-perspective examination of a killing inside an “anti-violence” protest experiment. Through careful reporting and emotional interviews, it reveals hard questions about the limits of accountability, the power of collective silence, and the perils of constructing justice outside traditional systems.

Transcript

[Sydney Brownstone]

This message comes from Rosetta Stone. Rosetta Stone Sapphire personalizes your language learning. Get unlimited access to all 25 Rosetta Stone languages and Sapphire learning tools. Visit Rosetta Stone.com NPR and receive 20% off.

[Kelly McEvers]

Hey, I'm Kelly McEvers and this is embedded from NPR. Today, we're starting a new series, a partnership with the Seattle Times and KUOW, and it takes place in the summer of 2020. Remember, that's when protests were happening all over the country after the killing of George Floyd. But in Seattle, something happened that didn't really happen anywhere else in the US A standoff with protesters went on for days. And then the police actually abandoned a precinct in the middle of the city in the Capitol Hill neighborhood. They just left. And once they were gone, protesters set up an Occupy style camp around it. The camp was called chop, the Capitol Hill Occupied Protest. Some people called it the Capitol Hill Organized Protest. It was an experiment in a different kind of world with its own medical teams and its own armed security. People there believed they were building a better version of society, one that rejected police violence. But three weeks in, that experiment ended. There was a shooting at the camp and the gunfire came from the people who were actually trying to defend the camp. A black teenager died six years later. The case remains unsolved. Over the next eight episodes, reporters Will James and Sidney Brownstone are going to take us inside CHOP to find out what happened the night of the shooting and how violence came to occupy this anti violence occupation. One more thing before we start. This episode includes explicit language and the sound of gun violence. Okay, here's Sydney and Will.

[Sydney Brownstone]

I remember the shooting happened on a Monday morning a few blocks from where I used to live, in a neighborhood called Capitol Hill. An editor called and asked if I could go down and report from the scene. So I get dressed and I run out of my apartment. Everything looks normal at first. People are walking their dogs, they're grabbing their fancy coffee drinks. I'm walking by rainbow crosswalks and a leather daddy bar. This is Seattle. But then I cross over onto 12th Avenue and it's like stepping into a different universe. I end up walking into Chop Chop was an Occupy style protest that included a field of tents. There were crowds, art installations, and makeshift barricades. All of it took up about eight square blocks of my neighborhood. It had been there for three weeks. But this morning, the morning of June 29, 2020, this isn't just a protest. It's a crime scene. Crowds of protesters are screaming in the middle of the street.

[Ashley Darrellis]

You know you fucked up, you and your fucking partner.

[Sydney Brownstone]

One of them seems particularly frazzled and is carrying around a baseball bat.

[David Gutman]

In the name of Jesus, that you move.

[Sydney Brownstone]

There are members of the black clergy praying over a blood smeared car.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Enough is enough.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Enough killing is enough. We have to stop this.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

In the name of Jesus.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Here's what I learned. Two black teens had been shot hours earlier. One of them was dead. His name was Antonio Mays Jr. My goal was to try to find witnesses who could tell me what had happened.

[Ashley Darrellis]

They started down by the park and everybody started running.

[David Gutman]

We're ducking down, whatnot.

[Sydney Brownstone]

People staying at CHOP tell me that they saw a white Jeep driving around erratically. Antonio Mays Jr. Was in that Jeep.

[Ashley Darrellis]

I was just driving around all crazy

[David Gutman]

like he was going to hit someone.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And witnesses say they heard shots coming from the jeep. And then people inside Chop shot back.

[Will James]

There was like at least like 30

[Ashley Darrellis]

shots that went off.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Protesters thought that whoever was in that white jeep was firing at them, that Chop was under attack.

[David Gutman]

We are out here as peaceful protesters, but we do have to defend ourselves when there are threats against our lives. I mean, when you come in shooting, I don't think it's that much of a surprise when you get shot back.

[Sydney Brownstone]

I felt really unnerved by the certainty among the people I talked to that protesters had acted in self defense. Things just seemed so chaotic on the ground that I didn't know how anyone could be certain of anything. And the story of what happened and seemed to be hardening before my eyes.

[Will James]

I was covering the protests in 2020 as well. And like Sydney, I was waiting for answers about this shooting. Why would this black teenager attack chop? Were protesters going to step forward and reckon with what happened that night? And police, were they going to arrest anyone? But instead, years passed and this case faded from public consciousness. As reporters, we turned our attention to other stories.

[Sydney Brownstone]

The protesters version of events went pretty much unchallenged. But Will and I couldn't shake this feeling that there was more to what happened.

[Ashley Darrellis]

One of the complaints that was filed this week is by a father who lost his son.

[Will James]

Antonio Mays Jr. Was in 2023. Antonio's dad, Antonio Mays Sr. Filed a lawsuit that told a different story. He said his son wasn't attacking Chop.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

The lies that those people up there told about my son angered me so much.

[Will James]

He said Antonio Jr. Had actually come to Seattle to join the protest to be part of the civil rights movement of his generation.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

You know, he went to take a stand and I, you know, I had to be proud of him for having the courage for that.

[Will James]

And he said whoever shot Antonio didn't act in self defense but killed him in cold blood.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I'm not a legal professional, but I think it's common knowledge that it's not legal to allow vigilantes to police their own zone.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Some of the questions we'd been asking ourselves from the beginning came rushing back. Who was Antonio Mays Jr. And if he did come to Seattle to protest, how did he end up as someone protesters felt they needed to defend themselves against?

[Will James]

Was whoever shot Antonio really protecting the protest? And why do we still not know who they are or their motives all these years later?

[Sydney Brownstone]

We investigated these questions for more than a year, interviewing close to 100 people and reviewing evidence that's never been public before. But the more we looked into this case, the more we ran into this circle of silence from protesters themselves to the police and officials who were leading the city.

[Will James]

We started to see what happens when the people in charge and the people demanding change seem to decide that protecting themselves is more important than their responsibility to anyone else. I'm Will James, a reporter at kuow, a public radio station in Seattle.

[Sydney Brownstone]

I'm Sydney Brownstone. I'm a reporter at the Seattle Times. From NPR's embedded this is we keep us safe.

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[Will James]

This is Ira Glass on this American Life. One that we like is a good mystery sometimes about really big things, but most times the little mysteries are the best.

[David Gutman]

Our lost and found is currently filled with pants. I don't know. I've never seen this happen.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Is this true?

[David Gutman]

This is true.

[Will James]

Mysteries of every size. Each week. This American Life. Wherever you get your podcasts. By the time we started investigating this case, a narrative about Antonio had been out there for years. Protesters at Chop said he was in the white Jeep attacking them, maybe even shooting when he was killed.

[Sydney Brownstone]

We knew Antonio was 16 years old and from Southern California and not much else because Antonio's dad wasn't talking to reporters back when the shooting happened. But after Antonio Sr. Filed a lawsuit, we thought there was a chance he'd open up that he could tell us more about Antonio. Hello, Mr. Mays.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Hello.

[Sydney Brownstone]

He talked to us from his home in Southern California while he was also taking care of his kids. Do you have questions for us before we start asking you questions?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

You were there, like, right after it happened?

[Sydney Brownstone]

Yes.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

So you guys got to see the aftermath.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Yeah, I saw the car and I spoke to people on the ground. Antonio Sr. Painted this picture of a father and son taking in and processing all of the protests breaking out across the country that summer.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

The George Floyd thing happened, and he sees a current example of police brutality bigger than the Rodney King. I mean, this is a real life black movement against police brutality that was going down in his lifetime.

[Will James]

Antonio Sr. Would record protests happening in LA where he worked, and share those videos with his son.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

My son asked me, he said, dad, if you didn't have us, would you be joining those riots? And, you know, for fear of him being excited to go join, you know, this is the one time I felt like, damn, did I give him too much information? You know, did I encourage him in a way that I don't want him to be encouraged right now because I didn't want him to go join that fight.

[Will James]

About a month after George Floyd's murder, Antonio Sr. Learned his son had gone to join that fight.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Antonio Jr. Left his home for Seattle on June 23, 2020, without telling his dad. Antonio Sr. Filed a missing persons report as soon as he discovered his son had left.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I had no idea that he would travel that far.

[Sydney Brownstone]

He was shot and killed at the Seattle protest less than a week later. Antonio Sr. Doesn't know what Antonio was doing during his days at chopping. But he doesn't believe the protester's narrative because it just sounds nothing like the son he raised.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

These books are stacked, too, Back to back.

[Sydney Brownstone]

1, 2, 3, 4. As Antonio Sr. And I are speaking over zoom, he walks over to a bookshelf.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

These go all the way. These go all the way down.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And he starts pulling out these worn paperback, thick, thick fantasy novels his son used to read.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

R.A. salvatore and Raymond Feist. He used to love the Legend of Drizz.

[Sydney Brownstone]

I was like, oh, my God. Antonio was a nerd in a way that is super relatable. I should be clear. Like, I was also a fantasy nerd.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Wow.

[Sydney Brownstone]

So definitely dozens in there. He was reading dozens of these books.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

He read all these and some of them multiple times over. When we would go to work, he would have any one of these in his pocket at any time, wherever we was at.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Antonio Sr. Runs a barbecue business.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

My family been barbecuing since before I

[Sydney Brownstone]

was born, and he was training his son to take over.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

He'd be at home practicing slicing his onions Julienne style.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Antonio Jr. And his dad would go to farmer's markets and sell their handcrafted barbecue sauce.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

My son came to life at those

[Sydney Brownstone]

markets like, they would hang out, have fun talking to customers, have fun talking to the other vendors.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

There was one night when my son made £120 of asparagus, and he just had this cast iron skillet. He would put it all together, and he just made it over and over again, over and over again that flying out the window. I'm like, my God, look at him go.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Antonio Sr. Told his son all about black history.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I taught my son what it is to be black in America.

[Sydney Brownstone]

He raised him with a deep understanding of the struggle for black liberation.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, the Watts riots, the Harlem riots, the Black Panther Party.

[Sydney Brownstone]

He taught him about the dangers young black men can face from police and what to do if they confront you.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I have been harassed by police on multiple occasions. So I teach my son to be careful so that when he's harassed by police, because I assume he'll be harassed by police, that he knows how to behave, knows how to speak, he knows how to move.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Antonio Sr. Has mixed feelings about this.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Now,

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

to be honest, if it meant that I had my son back, I wouldn't teach my son black history because I want to have him back right now. I said, man, they hell with black history.

[Sydney Brownstone]

I know this might be difficult to talk about, but how did you find out about your son's Death. And what were your communications like with the city after it happened?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

The sheriff came to my house, knocked on my door, told me the bad news. I talked to the detective. The chief of police at that time called me once or twice. I said, I need some arrests made. I need some justice for my son. We're working on that. We got some leads we're gonna follow up on. You know, this could take a while, but we're working on it.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And when's the last time you had any contact with the Seattle police regarding your son's death? Do you Remember what year?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

2020. Their phones just went silent. I couldn't get ahold of the detective. Someone said that the case got reassigned. And someone else told me that the case was closed.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And he said eventually people just stopped picking up.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I still don't have any. Any answers. Couldn't get a hold of anybody.

[Will James]

This takes us by surprise. Seattle police have told us their investigation into Antonio's death is still open and active. We expected they'd been updating Antonio Sr. Over the years, but he really doesn't know more than us.

[Sydney Brownstone]

It made us wonder, are Seattle police still investigating or have they effectively given up on it?

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

I should know exactly what happened. I should have some answers. I should have some closure. Oh, this is what happened, Mr. Mays. I should be getting a report. This is what these people did. This is what happened to your son. This is who's responsible for it. This is the action that we took.

[Will James]

After our interview, we reached out to the Seattle Police Department. We wanted to know when they last communicated with Antonio Sr. But they declined to comment because of the, quote, open murder investigation.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Antonio Sr. Sued the city of Seattle in 2023. He says the killing of his son was not self defense, that it was a violent crime, and the city let it happen.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Clearly, there's no consequence because that's why I'm here on an interview with you.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Our goal is to speak to as many people who were there witnessing what happened. And our hope is that some of them might be willing to tell us what actually happened.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

This is open in your face. You know, how are there no answers?

[Will James]

And there's a reason Antonio Sr. Is so baffled that this case is still unsolved. It's because so many of the minutes before and after Antonio's death were livestreamed, and many of these videos have been public for years.

[Sydney Brownstone]

The events leading up to Chop and Chop itself unfolded in about a month, but it felt like years worth of history were compressed in that time. It started a few days after George Floyd was murdered when thousands of protesters showed up in Seattle streets to confront police brutality.

[Will James]

Then police unleashed crowd control weapons. A standoff formed outside a police precinct and that escalated for a week until police decided to retreat. They abandoned the precinct.

[Sydney Brownstone]

CHOP grew up in the roughly eight square blocks around that vacant precinct.

[Will James]

Police were hands off. They decided they'd only go into CHOP for life threatening emergencies.

[Sydney Brownstone]

And through it all, people chronicled almost every detail on live streamed videos with thousands of viewers following along in real time.

[David Gutman]

We're out here live in Seattle and

[Will James]

we're going to keep seeing what we run into.

[Sydney Brownstone]

There were so many live streamers at CHOP that sometimes it felt like you couldn't walk 10ft without seeing someone documenting it on a phone.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

What's up, ladies and gentlemen?

[Sydney Brownstone]

Hey y', all, I'm back.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

It's the resistance, y'.

[David Gutman]

All.

[Ashley Darrellis]

It's been a minute.

[Sydney Brownstone]

I'm out here. You had live streams from citizen journalists, from independent journalists.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Hey, you mind giving up a couple words on how you feel about this autonomous zone going on out here?

[Sydney Brownstone]

You had YouTubers.

[David Gutman]

I'm going to try my best to

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

keep the camera away from people who

[Sydney Brownstone]

don't want to be filmed all broadcasting their version of chop.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Thanks for following me, bro.

[David Gutman]

Thank you very much for tuning in this evening. Stay tuned, guys.

[Sydney Brownstone]

It made us wonder, what could we learn from these live streams about what really happened the night Antonio was killed?

[David Gutman]

Shells on the ground. Pick those up, pocket them.

[Sydney Brownstone]

That's coming up after the break.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

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[Sydney Brownstone]

Zip every story from shortwave NPR science podcast starts with a question like, why do we have nightmares? How does AI affect my energy bill? At npr, we are here for your right to be curious about the world around you follow shortwave wherever you get your podcasts, because the more you ask, the more interesting the world gets. When we started investigating Antonio's death in 2025, we knew we had to revisit old live streams recorded that night. So we enlisted the help of our friend and colleague David Gutman of the Seattle Times, who'd been on this story from the beginning.

[David Gutman]

These videos have been online since the night of the shooting. There are three videos in particular that we've watched over and over again. They give us kind of a rough sketch of what happened that night. And the more we've watched them, the more we keep noticing new stuff, new details, new potential clues.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Who's this car?

[David Gutman]

So this video starts a little before 3am it's shot by this live streamer who's standing in this big park that's right at the middle of Chop. They're in the midst of all these tents, and this person is panicked.

[Sydney Brownstone]

More shots fired. More shots fired. More shots fired. More shots fired.

[David Gutman]

The person recording sees a car driving through the park on a turf field that's normally used for soccer, baseball, Frisbee. The live streamer says they hear gunshots coming from the car.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Car's been circling around, shooting more shots into tents.

[David Gutman]

We can see the car the livestreamer's talking about. It's a quick glimpse on the video. This white Jeep is what's got everyone all freaked out.

[Sydney Brownstone]

It's that white car that's been circling around.

[David Gutman]

We now know Antonio and another teen are inside this white Jeep.

[Sydney Brownstone]

I am ready to die for the cause, but it doesn't mean I want to be in the way of a fucking drive by shooter. This livestreamer sends out a message, basically saying that this white Jeep is attacking Chop. But we can't see enough in the video to tell.

[David Gutman]

The next live stream starts minutes later. This one is shot from an apartment right above Chop. You see people running in the streets below. You hear shouting. It sounds like a war zone. We can hear what happens next, the fatal shooting of Antonio, but we can't see it. There's a tree blocking our view. And then the boys inside the white Jeep crash into these cement barricades that the city put up around Chop. You hear more gunshots, shots directed at the white Jeep. You hear the engine rev. It kind of backs up a little, like it's trying to get out of there. And then it crashes into the barricades again. It's a lot of gunshots this time, And you know it's dark out, but underneath the halo of a street lamp. You see a shadow outside the passenger door of the white Jeep. And then you hear this just kind of surreal line. Oh, you're not dead. Want to get pistol whipped? Yeah. That's what you hear.

[Sydney Brownstone]

All you can make out from the speaker who says this is their shadow. But they seem to be yelling at the boys in the jeep. Boys who at this point have been shot multiple times.

[Will James]

Who yells this. And is this the person who shot Antonio?

[Ashley Darrellis]

Yo. Sh. Shots are fired. Shots are fired. Yo.

[David Gutman]

So there's this third video. It's shot by a woman named Ashley Derellis. She runs up to the crashed Jeep Just moments after we hear the last gunshots.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Move out the way, move up the way.

[David Gutman]

It's chaos.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Another shooter. That's another car.

[David Gutman]

People are all over the place. There's people trying to treat the two boys who've been shot.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Jesus, Lord Jesus. One of these boys is Antonio Mays Jr. And the other one is a 14 year old named Robert West.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Somebody shot. Somebody is shot. They're taking it to the hospital. Go, go, go, go, go, go.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Protesters put these kids in two different cars to try and bring them to medical care. And once they leave, the scene of the shooting is pretty quiet.

[Ashley Darrellis]

That's not your blood, right? Of course it's not my blood.

[Sydney Brownstone]

We see the crashed white Jeep. Its windows are broken and it is riddled with bullet holes. There is medical debris on the ground from when volunteer medics tried to treat the boys after pulling them out of the car. There's gauze and blood and broken glass. And there are about a dozen people milling around the scene in the dark.

[David Gutman]

Ashley Duellis films a guy walking around, and you never see this guy's face. You get a quick glimpse of him from the chest down. It kind of looks like he's wearing work boots, khaki, cargo type pants, an unzipped leather jacket. He's carrying a plastic bag. Right as he appears on camera, we hear this voice saying, unless you see any shells on the ground, pick those up, pocket them, take them home. Talking about hiding evidence, you know, stealing or destroying evidence.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Hell yeah. No evidence.

[David Gutman]

Ashley is to put it generously, she's encouraging.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Take that shit up.

[David Gutman]

Yeah, pick up my shells. Cause I want to get the fuck out of here.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Well, thank you.

[David Gutman]

Yeah. Hey, I'm sorry I gotta take off,

[Ashley Darrellis]

but I don't trust the cops. I don't trust. But you needed to be here. Yeah, y' all don't know who I am. I know. I don't care to know. All I know is thank you. That's it.

[Will James]

What is she thanking him for in her mind?

[David Gutman]

In her mind, I don't want to say. In my mind, she is thanking him for shooting the two boys who I think in her mind were a threat to protesters for security reasons.

[Ashley Darrellis]

I'm gonna cut this live off. I'm not gonna let y' all see who talks to the cop and who doesn't talk to the cop. Be safe, y'. All.

[David Gutman]

You watch Ashley Darrellis video, and you're like, well, this will be solved real soon.

[Will James]

So here's what we see across these three livestreams. First, a protester announces that a white Jeep driving on the playfield is attacking Chop. Minutes later, we hear one or more people shooting up that Jeep as it crashes into a barricade. And then we glimpse someone walking around in the aftermath saying, he needs to pick up his shells.

[Sydney Brownstone]

So we've got some blanks to fill in here, and that means finding people who were there who will talk to

[David Gutman]

us and, you know, if we're looking for who was at the scene. The only people I kind of know for sure were at the scene were the people who shot the videos. Did they see anything that we can't see on the videos? Did they talk to anyone? Do they know who's saying, do you want to get pistol whipped? Who is saying, hey, pick up my shells? And so Ashley Dar Elos was one of the first people we reached out to.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Can you put my name as Ashley Quo Aesthetics Darrellis?

[David Gutman]

She was literally at work. She works at, like, a restaurant, right? A cafe restaurant.

[Ashley Darrellis]

I definitely can't wait to invite you guys around when you come down here.

[David Gutman]

And not only is she at work, but she's, like, the only one at work as it's opening.

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

Hold on.

[Will James]

Give me one second.

[David Gutman]

So she's talking to us on, like, video zoom as she's also, like, manning the drive through.

[Ashley Darrellis]

I'm about to throw it in real quick. It's a chicken and waffles with tenders. And just do it. I'm just on the phone real quick.

[Will James]

Who was Ashley Dar Elis before she ended up documenting the aftermath of this shooting?

[David Gutman]

I guess I would call her a protester slash filmmaker. She is filming from all these protests.

[Ashley Darrellis]

San Jose, California.

[David Gutman]

Oakland, Louisiana. San Francisco.

[Ashley Darrellis]

I had gotten some notoriety because I had been going live streaming, like, every single day.

[David Gutman]

Came to Seattle because of the protests. She said she wanted to document it.

[Ashley Darrellis]

That was how I ended up immersing myself in the Seattle community.

[Will James]

We really want to ask Ashley if she has any more information about the man on her video saying, pick up my shells.

[David Gutman]

Ashley, much like many of the live streamers who are there most of the time, purposely is like pointing her camera down. She's shooting people with a camera from shoulders down. There is a often a concerted effort not to film people's faces.

[Will James]

And what happened when you asked Ashley to describe who this guy was?

[David Gutman]

She said it was a big fat white guy.

[Ashley Darrellis]

He was a big white man.

[David Gutman]

Do you think he's one of the shooters?

[Ashley Darrellis]

He is. He absolutely is the shooter.

[David Gutman]

Do you know who he is? I mean, beyond just like a guy

[Ashley Darrellis]

in a video interview with this motherfucker? No.

[David Gutman]

Say that again.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Sorry, I didn't have an interview with him. I just. That's why I kept following him around. I needed the police to do their job. You find out who this motherfucker is.

[Will James]

Even though Ashley wasn't there for the shooting, she walked away believing the man she saw picking up shells fired at the white jeep.

[David Gutman]

So Ashley shoots this video, parts of which certainly appear self incriminating. About a week later, the video gets Ashley arrested. Her arrest is filmed and it kind of goes viral online.

[Ashley Darrellis]

What the fuck?

[David Gutman]

She's just on a street corner and all of a sudden cops swarm her.

[Ashley Darrellis]

She didn't do anything. Yes, her name is Ashley. Ashley.

[Will James]

You all are motherfucking pieces of shit. Every single.

[David Gutman]

She's taken off in a police van. Technically, it's for rendering criminal assistance, Basically for helping cover up a possible crime. You got arrested a few days later, and you, as I understand it, were never charged with anything. What, what was that? Like?

[Ashley Darrellis]

They were trying to put me as, like I was helping him clean up the crime scene. When I was like, no, I'm recording him doing it because if anybody get in trouble, it's gonna be him, not me.

[David Gutman]

She says, no, I wasn't encouraging him, right? I'm not helping him.

[Ashley Darrellis]

I don't agree with anything that he did at the time. You're.

[Sydney Brownstone]

You.

[Ashley Darrellis]

You might be thankful because those kids were shooting at you, but afterwards, when you find out the truth, they're like, man, fuck that shit. I don't want to be a part of this.

[David Gutman]

Were the police like, hey, you know who did it or what? What were they saying?

[Ashley Darrellis]

No, the police wanted me to give up the names of the people who are at the crime scene. Like, all the protesters, they didn't even give a damn about the shooter. They asked me one question about the shooter, but they were more interested about the protesters. Of course, there's stuff that's happening that happened there that I'm not gonna, you know, divulge. But it's like you. What's the number one rule of Fight Club?

[David Gutman]

Don't talk about Fight Club.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Exactly.

[David Gutman]

What's the second rule of Fight Club?

[Ashley Darrellis]

I'm not gonna tell you. You don't know.

[David Gutman]

What she's saying is we don't talk about that stuff. You know, people who were there who witnessed this shooting, this killing are not gonna talk about it. And that is something certainly we've run into over a year of reporting is. I feel quite confident there are people out there who know who did this shooting, but there are people who don't want to talk about it and won't talk about was someone walking around Chop with a gun. Right.

[Ashley Darrellis]

Obviously, everybody was walking around Chop with a cut. So, you know, motherfucker, I'm Top Flight security, too. What's up then? Like, come on now. Like, stop it. Cut the shit. Literally cut the shit. But what made him security besides the fact that he had a gun? That's why he was called security and everybody at CHOP was security there.

[Will James]

We'd heard about shop security before. We'd seen people walking around the zone with body armor, sometimes with guns. But to understand who they were and what their role was the night Antonio was killed, we've got to go back to the beginning. How did CHOP start? Why did some protesters there decide to arm themselves?

[Sydney Brownstone]

And how did something so hopeful, a protest for black lives, end up turning into this circle of silence surrounding the killing of a black teenager?

[Ashley Darrellis]

New black lives matter to the spd. We didn't kick them out. They have bad in this space. Go back to the intersection. Go back to the intersection.

[David Gutman]

Always bristle at the fact that we

[Antonio Mays Sr.]

gave up a precinct.

[David Gutman]

It's way more nuanced than that.

[Sydney Brownstone]

What were we so afraid of? That's on the next episode of We Keep Us Safe.

[Will James]

If you'd like to take a look at evidence from this episode, like live streams from the night of the shooting, go to npr.org chop we're going to be adding new evidence there each week.

[Sydney Brownstone]

We Keep US Safe from NPR's Embedded is a collaboration with the Seattle Times and KUOW. This series is reported and written by me, Sydney Brownstone, and my partner, Will James. Full disclosure, we happen to be married. David Gutman is also a reporter on the series.

[Will James]

This episode was edited by Lewis Luis Trayas and Laura Grenias, with support from Katie Simon.

[Sydney Brownstone]

It was produced by our senior producer, Adelina Lanciones. Additional production support from Dan Girma research

[Will James]

and fact checking by Dania Solomon and Miyoko Wolf.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Robert Rodriguez mastered the episode music by

[Will James]

AudioSocket Blue Dot Sessions, Ramtin Arablouei and Universal Music Production.

[Sydney Brownstone]

Our managing editor of Standards and Practices is Tony Caban. The Deputy editor for Editorial Review is Nadia Lanci. Johannes Durge and Micah Ratner provided legal support.

[Will James]

Special thanks to Matt Canham, Gene Demby, Gigi Dubann, Phyllis Fletcher and Ravenna Koenig for your invaluable feedback, as well as attorney Kathy George. Thanks to Omari Salisbury and Converge Media for video recordings and crucial insights about the timeline of events surrounding the Seattle protests of 2020.

[Sydney Brownstone]

The showrunner and senior supervising editor of Embedded is Katie Simon. Liana Simstrom is senior supervising producer, Irene Noguchi is executive producer, Yolanda Sangweni is NPR's vice president for content and Tommy Evans is NPR's editor in chief for KUOW.

[Will James]

Brendan Sweeney is directing of New content. Our Chief Content Officer is Marshall Eisen

[Sydney Brownstone]

for the Seattle Times. Laura Grenius leads our investigations team. Michelle Matassa Flores is our executive editor.

[Will James]

And a big thanks to our NPR supporters. Embedded is where we do ambitious long form journalism at npr, and NPR helps keep that work going. Supporters also get to listen to every Embedded episode early. Find out [e-mail] if you'd like to email the show, you can reach [e-mail] I'm Will James. This is embedded from NPR. Thanks for listening.

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[David Gutman]

on consider this NPR's afternoon news podcast. We cover everything from politics to the economy to the world. But every story starts with a question. At npr, we stand for your right to be curious to make sense of the biggest story of the day and what it means for you. Follow Consider this Wherever you get your podcasts.