Podcast Summary
Episode Overview
Podcast: Embodiment Matters Podcast
Episode: In the Absence of the Ordinary: A Conversation With Francis Weller
Hosts: Carl Rabke and Erin Geesaman Rabke
Guest: Francis Weller (writer, psychotherapist, soul activist)
Date: June 11, 2020
This contemplative episode explores how to be present and embodied in deeply uncertain times, focusing particularly on the pandemic as an initiation, the alchemy of grief and sorrow, the path to becoming an elder, and the soulful qualities necessary to weather collective and personal transformation. Francis Weller draws on psychotherapy, mythology, indigenous traditions, poetry, and alchemy to offer wisdom for living through rupture, cultivating necessary virtues, and rediscovering the sacred in our daily lives.
Main Themes & Key Discussion Points
1. Initiation and Its Consequences
(04:21–12:18)
- Initiation as a Collective and Personal Event:
Weller frames the pandemic as a “rough initiation” thrust upon all of us, noting that true initiation always involves a radical severance from what was, a transformation of identity, and the recognition that the old world is irretrievable. - Misunderstandings of Initiation:
Contrary to common Western views, initiation isn’t about personal growth; it is for the community, the sacred, and the world. - Trauma vs. Initiation:
Traditional initiation expands our sense of belonging, while trauma often fragments and isolates. - Missing the Bus:
“Even though initiation is not optional, you can still miss the bus.” (11:13, Weller)
Not all ordeals result in transformation or maturity; resisting change or nostalgia for the old ways can prevent true integration.
2. Eldership, Grief, and Metabolizing Sorrow
(13:32–18:24)
- On Becoming an Elder: “An elder is someone who really has taken themselves less and less seriously and their role in the community more and more gravely.” (13:35, Weller)
- Steering Into Sorrow:
Elders are those who face life’s wounds directly, metabolizing pain into medicine not just for themselves, but for the wider community. - Apprenticeship with Sorrow:
Rather than suppress or drown in grief, we should enter ‘apprenticeship’, walking in companionship with it:- “The first move in that apprenticeship is finding our right relationship with sorrow.” (16:50, Weller) This is a long path—“a prolonged vigil”—not a quick fix.
3. Soulful Medicine: Four Practices for Overwhelm
(18:24–25:35) Francis offers four foundational supports for times of overwhelm:
- Self-Compassion:
“Self-compassion is really about the radical acceptance of what is. Can I make room for the weak part of me?” (18:56, Weller)
This is “holy work.” - Turning Toward the Feelings:
The necessity and courage in facing, not fleeing, the most painful emotions. - Astonishment by Beauty:
Beauty is essential, not optional.
“We will do it out of love. And love is first quickened through beauty. The allure of a flower or a face…Fall in love outward, which is what Robinson Jeffers says we must do.” (23:00–23:29, Weller) - Patience:
A critical (and underappreciated) virtue.
“In your patience is your soul.” (24:44, Weller)
4. Restraint & Emptiness
(27:38–30:07)
- Restraint as Spiritual Practice:
Modern culture undervalues restraint and the ability to “not move forward even if you can, for the sake of something larger to emerge.” (28:11, Weller) - Dealing with Emptiness:
The constraints of the pandemic confront us with emptiness—a void where communal life, ritual, and beauty should reside. Facing this emptiness is essential, though many turn to distractions.
5. Beautiful and Strange Otherness — Belonging and the World’s Sorrows
(31:12–37:27)
- Courage to Open:
Approaching the world's sorrow brings us out of isolation:
“We are both overwhelmed by the grief of the world, and in some strange alchemical way, reunited with the aching, shimmering body of the planet. We become acutely aware that there is no out there. We share one continuous presence, one shared skin.” (33:59, Carl quoting Weller) - Service as the Final Stage of Healing:
The medicine we gain must ultimately be shared with others.
“What we gather on any kind of long walk with suffering is meant to be a giveaway at some point. Otherwise, what is the meaning of it?” (35:08, Weller)
6. Holding Difference/Polarization and the Soul’s Gifts
(37:27–40:17)
- Dealing with Division:
While polarization is easy, the real challenge and mark of initiation is “how do I stay in relationship to you, even if I am vehemently in disagreement with the position you're holding?” (38:13, Weller) - Outrage vs. Rage:
Outrage protects what we love, but must avoid turning people into ‘the other.’
7. Duende, Soulfulness, and the Power of Darkness
(41:10–48:48)
- What is Duende?:
Drawing from Spanish (Andalusian) culture, duende is the fierce soulful energy that rises from the earth—a wildness that transforms art and life when present.- “Duende… is a wild, vital energy you cannot domesticate. The best you can do is court it, and you court it… through the combination of discipline and passion.” (41:10, Weller)
- The Role of Darkness:
Darkness in the soul is as holy as light, a space of growth, rootedness, and transformation.- “Think about your heartbeat right now. It's happening in utter darkness, and yet we hope it never sees the light of day.” (44:08, Weller)
- Baptized by Dark Waters:
Letting oneself be ‘blessed’ by the difficult descent or darkness is another form of consecration.
8. Living in a Multicentered Cosmos
(51:19–53:10)
- Uncentering Ourselves:
“We must uncenter the human a little, you know… What if we live in a multicenter cosmos?” (51:19, Weller)
Unlike spirit (which seeks oneness), soul loves multiplicity and connection to the “ten thousand things.”
9. Words as Sacred Speech
(53:34–55:31)
- Francis reads an evocative passage (see Quotes below) about words that are rooted, embodied, and sacred, invoking the land and the living world—a longing for language to be alive, sensuous, and connected.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
On Initiation and Transformation:
- “Initiation means to begin something, not to finish it... you have begun anew.”
(05:14, Francis Weller)
On Eldership:
- “An elder is someone who really has taken themselves less and less seriously and their role in the community more and more gravely.”
(13:35, Francis Weller)
On Facing Pain:
- “Our culture, by and large, is trouble avoidant... But pain is also inevitable. So how do we use it in soul's understanding?”
(13:35–15:00, Francis Weller)
On Sorrow:
- “How do I, in a sense, befriend it and come into some prolonged intimacy again? That's why I value the idea of apprenticeship. It implies from the very beginning that this is going to be a long practice.”
(16:50, Francis Weller)
On Beauty:
- “Beauty is the means by which the gods touch the senses, reach the heart, and attract us into life.”
(23:07, Francis Weller, quoting Hillman)
On Restraint:
- “Restraint is really one of those almost completely unrecognized practices and values of knowing how to hold back, how to not move forward even if you can, for the sake of something larger to emerge.”
(28:11, Francis Weller)
On Belonging:
- “We become acutely aware that there is no out there. We share one continuous presence, one shared skin. Our suffering is mutually entangled... as is our healing.”
(33:59, Carl Rabke reading Francis Weller)
On Giving Away What Pain Has Taught:
- “What we learn, what we gather on any kind of long walk with suffering is meant to be a giveaway at some point.”
(35:08, Francis Weller)
On Duende:
- “Duende... is a wild, vital energy you cannot domesticate. The best you can do is court it, and you court it... through the combination of discipline and passion.”
(41:10, Francis Weller)
On Darkness:
- “So much happens in the darkness that I consider it to be exquisitely holy.”
(44:08, Francis Weller)
On Uncentering Ourselves:
- “What if we live in a multicenter cosmos?”
(51:41, Francis Weller)
On Sacred Speech: (Francis Weller, reading his own writing, 53:34–55:31)
- “I want to see our words jump off the ground, erupt from a central earth, musty, humid, gritty. I want to taste words like honey, sweet and dripping with eternity... My language must be redwood speech, watershed prayers, oak savannas coupled in an erotic way with fog, heat, wind, rain and hills, sweetgrass and jackrabbits, wild iris and ocean current. My land is my language, and only then can my longing for eloquence be granted. Until then, I will fumble and fume and ache for a style of speaking that tells you who I am.”
Key Timestamps
- [04:21] – Initiation and the three consequences
- [13:32] – Sorrow, elders, and grief as apprenticeship
- [18:24] – The four medicine practices: self-compassion, turning toward feelings, beauty, patience
- [27:38] – Restraint and our cultural avoidance of restraint/emptiness
- [31:12] – The courage to open to the world's sorrow and belonging
- [41:10] – Duende as soul’s fierce wildness
- [44:08] – The value and holiness of darkness
- [51:19] – Living in a multicentric world
- [53:34] – Francis reads his poetic wish for sacred, earthy language
Tone & Language
The conversation is poetic, contemplative, and earthy, interwoven with myth, psychology, and a call for deep presence. Weller’s language is rich and evocative; the hosts maintain a tone of intimacy, reverence, and inquisitiveness, supporting listeners to reflect on their own experience of transformation, grief, and embodied wisdom.
Takeaways
- Times of crisis are collective initiations—transformation is possible, but not guaranteed.
- The medicine of grief and difficulty becomes truly potent when offered to community.
- Beauty, patience, self-compassion, and courage to face pain are essential soul foods for hard times.
- Dark times are not to be avoided, but entered with discipline and openness—they contain necessary alchemy.
- True belonging arises from embracing our own “beautiful and strange otherness” and refusing to settle for conformity.
- The words we speak, the healing we embody, and the presence we offer matter deeply—each is an offering to the wider world.
For listeners seeking a soulful, embodied way to meet these uncertain times, this episode offers deep wells of wisdom and encouragement, urging us all to grow down, face the dark, and offer our unique gifts to the collective.