EP 113: Why Most CMOs Fail at Brand Strategy

Summary

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Embracing Marketing Mistakes

EP 113: Why Most CMOs Fail at Brand Strategy

Hosts: Chris Norton & Will Ockenden (Prohibition PR)
Guest: Ben Norman (Strategy Director, Principals Agency; Host of Marketing Room 101)
Date: June 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This irreverent, no-filter conversation with Ben Norman dives deeply into the messy realities behind brand strategy and why even the most senior CMOs often fail at getting it right. Ben shares the building blocks of effective strategy, the traps leaders fall into, and some delightfully cringe-worthy personal mistakes from his own marketing career. The episode blends tactical blueprints with hilarious war stories, aiming to arm listeners with real-world lessons and the occasional cautionary tale.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben Norman’s Journey & Perspective on Failure

• [00:11] Ben’s self-introduction leans heavily on failure as a teaching tool:
  • "I think I might be uniquely qualified for this because I think I'm actually the only marketer who has more mistakes to his name than successes."
    — Ben Norman [00:11]
• Comedic riff on how everyone thinks they are a marketing expert, unlike professions like brain surgery.

2. Marketing Room 101 & Industry Conversations

• [01:25] – [02:51] Ben’s podcast, Marketing Room 101, focuses on banning overused marketing trends and concepts.
  • Wide-ranging guest roster: from people wanting to banish exclamation marks to those targeting Meta for harming children.
  • Highlights his love for exploring both serious and playful sides of the industry.

3. The Strategic Divide: What Most CMOs Get Wrong

A. The Confusion Between Marketing and Communications

• [05:28] Ritson Mini MBA experience:
  • Ben describes how his Mini MBA expanded his view beyond communications to see all elements of marketing (the "four Ps"), with communication being just one element.
  • "You realize just how small … the communications part of marketing really is. If you're going to do marketing properly."
    — Ben Norman [06:02]

B. What is Strategy? The Ancient Greeks & the Three C’s

• [08:21 – 14:32]
  • Classic confusion—strategy vs. tactical planning.
  • Ben’s visualization:
    • Left: Buyer.
    • Right: Product.
    • In between: Noise (stakeholders, retailers, agencies…).
    • "The job of strategy is to listen to all of that, to hear all the noise, but bring those two things back closer together."
      — Ben Norman [09:18]
  • Greek military origins: ‘Strategy’ (diagnosis & long-term plan) vs. ‘Tactics’ (battlefield decisions).
  • Introduces the Three C’s: Customer / Company / Competition.
    • Find the intersection and build a compelling, clear proposition.

C. How To Articulate Strategy

• [14:34 – 17:36]
  • Simplicity wins:
    • Cites Apple post-Steve Jobs: "The strategy was ‘simplify.’ And that was it."
      — Will Ockenden [15:08]
  • Ben’s preference: Boil complexity into “a manifesto," a single slide, one defining phrase, or even one word, then expand outward with tactical ideas.

D. Process Before Creative or Channel Decisions

• [17:55 – 21:01]
  • Ben’s process:
    • "Stop speaking, start listening." Interviews staff individually, talks to ‘customer connectors’ (frontline staff, call center, customer service).
    • Gathers every document, campaign, bit of research, then supplements with real-world (often guerrilla) research:
      • Retail ethnography—watching/interviewing consumers in action.
    • When examining competitors, focus not just on category competitors but true alternatives (“Alternative to a Snickers is not just KitKat, it’s having nothing or an apple.”) [20:10]

E. How Much Time Should Be Spent on Insight?

• [23:05]
  • “Once you start hearing the same thing over and over again… there’s diminishing returns.”
    — Ben Norman [23:25]
  • Move forward before running in circles; present multiple ‘right’ strategic recommendations, not just one.

4. Notable Brand Example: McCafe’s Strategy

• [25:15 – 27:57]
  • McDonald’s wanted to boost coffee sales and differentiate.
    • Found that audiences wanted quality but hated coffee snobbery.
    • Used this insight for a positioning: “taking the piss out of coffee ponssery”, positioning McCafe as the straightforward, value-centered alternative.
  • "They positioned themselves versus something else in a very clear way. You can see that strategy coming through."
    — Ben Norman [26:18]

5. The Classic Trap: Confusing Strategy with Tactics

• [29:33 – 30:59]
  • Will suggests applying O–S–T thinking (Objective, Strategy, Tactic) to daily life — cleaning house, choosing lunch — as a discipline.
  • Ben echoes: “Start with diagnosis … Do the diagnosis bit: what’s actually wrong?”
  • Analogy: Rushing to ‘replace the kitchen’ before discovering the house wiring/damp — true for both home renos and marketing.

6. The Industry’s Current Obsessions & Errors

• [35:03 – 36:59]

  • False binaries kill clarity: "Let’s stop obsessing over this versus that, over these false binaries, over brand versus performance ..."
    — Ben Norman [35:08]
  • Notes tribalism (performance vs brand, social vs TV, etc.) leads to myopia and poor results.
  • Quote: "Anybody who thinks they're in one camp and that one camp is the right answer to any problem is by definition … [not giving] their clients the best possible answer."
    — Ben Norman [35:58]

• Discipline focus:

  • Specialists are needed, but know where your channel fits in the bigger picture.
  • “Channel neutrality is what we need to move to … It's the best way to serve clients.”
    — Will Ockenden [38:43, 38:47]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

“Strategy is the art of choosing what not to do, then by definition it saves you time.”
— Ben Norman [34:03]

"If you're a PR expert, you're an advertising expert, even if you're a creative execution specialist, you can understand the bigger picture and what you do and how that fits in."
— Ben Norman [07:10]

"If you are told. If you're going to be an expert in this thing, understand what the bloody word means. You don't have an omnichannel communications campaign."
— Ben Norman [57:17]

"Everyone thinks they can do marketing... You think, God, what other industry could we have chosen to work in where everyone's an expert except you?"
— Ben Norman [45:32, 45:40]

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Ben Norman’s “Menu of Mistakes” [43:19+]

Ben frames his career’s mishaps as a menu, from flippant to catastrophic—showing both humility and humor.
Key Stories:

• The Mascot Disaster ([46:41 – 51:06])
  • As Wally the Whale at Wetherby Races, Ben trips, his costume head falls off, exposing him to a sea of disappointed children and losing money for colleagues who’d bet on him.
  • "Right in front of the grandstand … those kids realize, oh, it's not actually a whale. It's some balding guy..." [50:28]
• Art Director Debacle ([51:46 – 53:57])
  • Forgot to book an art director for an Asda food shoot; claimed to be the art director himself and styled the shoot with passable results.
    • "Decided in the moment to tell the client I'm actually an art director as well … started it out." [51:47]

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“Three Things to Banish from Marketing” [54:55+]

1. Tiny Microphones (“Why is everyone dicking…”):
   • Ben’s tongue-in-cheek complaint about social video culture.
     • "You just look stupid … What happened to a microphone you could hold in your hand?" [55:55]
2. People Using ‘Omnichannel’ Incorrectly:
   • Hates buzzword misuse and surface-level understanding:
     • "If you're going to be an expert in this thing, understand what the bloody word means." [57:08]
3. Social Media’s Societal Damage:
   • Earnest wish to see the harm of social media (especially to children) addressed via regulation:
     • “I struggle to see any benefit that it brings to society… does more harm than good… I’d wave a wand and just bin social media.” [58:08]

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Closing Insight: Social Media & Rage Algorithms

• Discussion of social media’s toxic influence on both politics and personal well-being.

  • "Rage sells. Anger keeps people … Algorithms are built around that."
    — Ben Norman [61:00]

• Hopeful note: Maybe future regulation or more balanced AI-powered LLMs will repair digital discourse.

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How to Connect with Ben Norman

• LinkedIn: Search “Ben Norman” — “the bald one.”
• Podcast: [Marketing Room 101] – available wherever you get your podcasts. [64:14]

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Useful Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------|------------| | Ben’s intro, on learning from mistakes | 00:11 | | Defining strategy, Three C’s | 08:21–14:32| | Tactics vs Strategy and daily life analogies| 29:33–30:59| | The McCafe example | 25:15–27:57| | Tribalism, false binaries in marketing | 35:03–36:59| | “Menu of Mistakes” (funny stories) | 43:19–53:57| | Three things to banish, social media rant | 54:55–63:15| | Where to find Ben/Closing | 64:14–64:30|

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Episode Tone

• Informal, blunt, and self-deprecating with regular doses of dark humor and industry in-jokes.
• No reverence for puffed-up “strategic” thought-leadership; instead, hard-earned practical wisdom and comic humility.

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Final Thought

"There are no silver bullets in strategy. Strategy is what happens when you simplify complexity, make tough choices, and have the courage to stick to them. The rest is just tactics."
— Paraphrased synthesis of Ben Norman & hosts’ insights

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Transcript

[Host 1]

Hi.

[Host 2]

Welcome back to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the show that helps you grow through other people's failures. And this week we've got Ben Norman, strategy director at Principals agency and also host of Marketing 101.

[Ben Norman]

I think I might be uniquely qualified for this because I think I'm actually the only marketer who has more mistakes to his name than successes. You know, when you think about it and you think the career that we have, people go, it's not brain surgery. No one else goes to that brain surgeon. Have you thought about doing it like this? Because my nephew has done a bit of brain surgery.

[Host 2]

So sit back, relax, and let's hear what Ben Norman has got to say about marketing strategy. Enjoy. Norman, welcome to the show.

[Ben Norman]

Thank you for having me. I think it's. This is what it's like to be inside a real podcast, isn't it?

[Host 2]

I wouldn't call it.

[Will]

I'm calling a real side inside a podcast.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah. Welcome inside a proper one before.

[Will]

Well, we've had a good pre show warm up, haven't we? We've covered everything from UFOs, conspiracy theories, the capitalist society we're trapped in.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

I think if, if anybody does want

[Host 2]

to get Simulation Terry. Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

If anyone wants to get a really good opinion on UFOs speak, reach out to Chris Norton.

[Host 2]

Oh, I love it. I love all that, love all that stuff. Right, so obviously we've got a podcast. You've got a podcast, Mark. And we've been on your podcast about, what was it, five months ago, six months ago. How long you been doing it?

[Ben Norman]

I guess over a year.

[Host 2]

Is it a year?

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, you were like my fourth episode, I think you guys, and I've been doing it about 18 months.

[Host 2]

Marketing room 101.

[Ben Norman]

That's it.

[Host 2]

So room 101, you put something and banish it away. Marketing room 101. Legally different. You get something in marketing and you put it in a room straight away.

[Ben Norman]

You'll never guess what we do. 101.

[Will]

So how's it gone in, in those sort of year and a half that you've been running it? What, what are there any. I mean, it's a great concept for a show. First of all, it seems to have gained quite a lot of traction from, from what I can see, it's very broad.

[Ben Norman]

I think what I like about it is a lot like it puts the emphasis or what I've enjoyed about doing it is I've got to meet some really great people and you guys, I've got nice. It's really, really broad. Like the things that people do and the things that people bring along, it's you. You get everything from someone who wanted to banish exclamation marks to somebody who wants to banish meta because of the damage it's doing to the. The psychological damage it's doing to children as they grow it. So we go everything from ridiculous, ridiculously serious to completely flippant and everything in between. So, yeah, it's been good, I think. You know, I've had everyone. I've had some of your previous guests, we've had a few chats with. I've had people that are completely so. So, for example, the likes of Dom Dwight, people like Steve Harrison, Mick Mahoney, I think you guys have spoken for them.

[Host 2]

Who's been your best guest, would you say?

[Ben Norman]

Oh, it's hard. It's like trying to pick your children, isn't it? But. So my first guest was somebody who I've been a massive fan of for many, many years. I don't know if you guys are familiar with a guy called Paul Feldwick.

[Host 2]

Yeah, another name.

[Ben Norman]

Wrote a book called why does the Peddler Sing? And for me, it was a bit of an end. When I read that book, it was a bit of an enlightened enlightenment moment, really, where I realized what how advertising works. How advertising, the role it plays in culture, the role it plays in society, why it's actually important for it to be entertaining, why showmanship is as or more important than salesmanship. And so that's what he outlines in the book. He goes all the way back to the 1920s, I think it was, or maybe before that, when people would go around to your house and they'd knock on your door and then these people were trying to pedal their wares, they were trying to sell silk scarves or trying to sell ointment. So they're trying to sell door to door. And what they realized is people would give their attention up if they'd sing a song or if they dance or if they. If they don't offer some form of entertainment in exchange for your time. And then you might buy something at the end. It's like, that's. That's what advertising is. That's how it works. So it's a long way of me saying, so Paul wrote that book and I always wanted to speak to him. Setting up the podcast was a reason to reach out to him. And I had the most fascinating conversation with this guy who's been very senior at many agencies for many years, written a couple of books. He's one of the greatest minds in the industry. And all of a sudden I'm sat there on a call with him thinking, Jesus. I like. I don't really know what to say to him.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Norman]

But he was brilliant. So, Yeah, I still think my first episode is special for that reason because I got to meet. Meet him. But then. Yeah, loads of them since. It's been some good guests.

[Host 2]

Okay. And so you've been into prohibition before. Well, we should, we should give it a light mention. You are engaged to one of our staff members.

[Ben Norman]

Yep.

[Host 2]

Who's been here for years and years and years and years. And you came in to do some training on. Well, you know, basically on strategy. Right. So you're a strategist, you currently work for principals. Right. And you're also. I've got. I've got here. You're also a Ritzon Mini MBA graduate, which I've always been really interested in because obviously Mark Ritson, for those who don't know, rights for Marketing Week. I think he's based in Australia now, isn't he?

[Ben Norman]

I think he lives on. What's the island. Is it. Is it maybe not Tasmania.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Ben Norman]

I don't know. Yeah, it's somewhere in. In rural Australia.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And he, he's a fascinating guy because I find him hilarious because he just drops F bombs left, right and center. But he's a brilliant mind. So what was the Mini MBA like? What did you make out of?

[Ben Norman]

Was great. It was a bit of a pivotal moment for me and I. So I did a degree in advertising design. So I, I was very much on the communications side. I think that's what a lot of our industry become. We talk a lot and a lot of CMOs have roles where it's about communications and we mistake marketing and communications a lot. And I'd sort of very much got a degree in advertising and my career was advertising and communications. But I was always fascinated by the broader thing. And I know going back to talking about reading things like Paul Feldrick's book, I'd always wanted to learn and keep learning. But then when I went on the Mini, then I was like, actually I want something that gives me a broader view. And then when I did the Mini mba, I realized, you realize just how small, just how insign. Not insignificant. It's a very important part, but just how slim the communications part of marketing really is. If you're going to do marketing properly. It's. I think, if I remember right, there's maybe 10 modules on the, on the NBA. One of them is promotion. One of the four P's is promotion. Yeah, one section and that's. That. That's a slither of it. Like I said, it's a very important pointy end. Slither. But what you realize when you do that is it's this process all the way from doing your research, understanding your audience, going through segmentation into then making strategic choices before you ever get anywhere near deciding what you're going to do. Communications. So what Ritson does in that. In that course is. I mean, I recommend it to anybody if they are interested in learning. If you want. If you want to add something and take some CPD credits off or something like that, then I don't necessarily think it's.

[Host 2]

Start a podcast.

[Ben Norman]

What the course does very well is it gives you that broader view of how, if you are a discipline specialist, you understand better what part of the discipline or what part your discipline plays. But it also means that when you speak into a client, you understand what they've got going on behind the scenes. If you're a PR expert, you're an advertising expert, you're a. Even if you're a creative execution specialist, you can understand the bigger picture and what you do and how that fits in with it.

[Will]

Yeah. So where does. Well, let's talk about strategy. And strategy is one of those funny things, isn't it? Because everyone always talks about the need to be more strategic and then you put somebody on the spot, even senior people, even myself at times. What is strategy? And it's actually quite hard to define. And people really struggle with actually developing a strategy, don't they? So I suppose as a starting point, what is strategy and what are the risks of not having one? And how strategic are people in general? Because I have a feeling people leap straight to delivery. Don't know. They leap straight to tactics. Forget the whole strategy bit. So talk us through that. So what is strategy? And, you know, what are the risks of not having one?

[Ben Norman]

It's a good question. And I. I struggled for many years with what strategy is and what planning is, because I think if you were to speak to different people in different agencies, you would find that there are loads and loads of different interpretations of what strategy is. And also, even within agencies, people will have strategy in the job title or they'll call themselves a planner, or they'll call. They'll give themselves different descriptions, different roles, et cetera. And what you find is there is no one single truth. Because a lot of the time we'll go, what you just said there, you've Got people jumping into tactics, you get people who are tactical planning specialists who could then call that a strategy. But often you can have a strategy for pr. But when we talk about strategy in a broader sense, and the way that I see strategy, the only way I've found that is a neat and clean way of describing it, is going to use my hand. Sorry, for people that are listening. But over here at the far end of my left hand, for the tape,

[Host 2]

he's putting his hand to the left.

[Ben Norman]

So for the tape. So over here on the far left you have a person, that person is a potential buyer of your product or service. Over here on the right hand side, you have a product that you want to sell to those people. So you've got a person that can potentially buy your product, you've got a product offset, you've got your product on the right hand side, but in the middle you have hundreds of people, you have the board of directors at the business, you have a retailer, you have the retailers, decision makers, you have a number of different agencies, you have. So you've got all of these people and what those people do, they're all got valid and they've all got roles, etc. But the job of strategy is to listen to all of that, to hear all the noise, but bring those two things back closer together. So you need to create that connection and see through all of that noise and think how, how does this person and this product come together in a way that is mutually beneficial, that is a fair value exchange. So yeah, to put that kind of in a nutshell, really, who's the person we're trying to sell to, what we're trying to sell to them, how can we bring that together through communications to make that transaction happen?

[Host 2]

And, and a great example of that being what?

[Will]

Bring it back. I think you mentioned some Roman war examples when, when, when he did the training.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, that's so, so, so the strategy and tacticos were the. So yeah, it comes back to the Greek generals. I don't know if I'm saying that right or not, but ultimately there'll be

[Will]

a host complaints from your mispronouncement.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, exactly. And that's where the names came from. Because what. And, and if you look at a lot of business theory, a lot of marketing theory, etc, a lot of it does tend to come back to things that have been learned through war or through politics, etc. But what you. They found. So back in ancient Greece they found that they needed two separate roles. So you had the tactical people, the tacticals, they would command the battlefield. They would command what actually happens. So how am I going to move these people on this day, in this battle in order to come out and win that battle?

[Will]

And that can be as specific as we are going to use bows and arrows to, to, to destroy the, the enemies. You can tell them.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, or they start moving first and

[Will]

we're going to respond Very, very specific.

[Ben Norman]

Exactly that.

[Will]

Tactical delivery.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah. And what, but what they found is also what you actually need is you need the, you need to go back and so, so diagnosis into strategy, into tactics. You need to start by diagnosing. So if you think of the. Going back to the ancient Greek example, you would, you would be looking at where you're going to play. Where is the battle going to take place? Who are we likely to be battling against? So you'd build as much knowledge as you possibly can about the. About the enemy.

[Host 2]

Data.

[Ben Norman]

Data. You're building data. So in a marketing context, looking at. So what's the marketplace that we're actually playing in? What is the, what does the battlefield look like? Who are we going to be fighting against? What are the, what are the competitors doing? What's the actual objective that we want to achieve? And then that's when you set a strategy. So a strategy is a broader approach to that battle. So in the marketing context, that is, we've done the diagnosis, we've got the data, we've got what we need to know about our. So I always boil down to the three C's. I can never remember the name of the Japanese guy that came up with the three Cs as a model. But think about the three. You think about your customer, you think about your competition, and you think about the company and bringing those three things together. So if we. The strategy should be. So you built the knowledge around those three areas. The strategy is the coming together of the coming together of those three things in any context. In any case, I've never found a situation where you can't solve the problem by looking at the three Cs. So who is the customer that we're trying to speak to? What do we know about that customer? Have we made a decision about that customer actually and decided. So a lot of people say strategy is the art of choosing what not to do and then you're left with what you do do. So who's the customer that we're actually going after? Who have we decided that we're not going to go after? What do we know about them? What are their wants and needs, their desires, their behaviors? Their attitudes in relation to this product or service, then we've looked at the company. So what do we. So the company see, what do we actually do as a business that meets the need, those needs. So we understand that customer well enough to know what they actually want. What do we do in relation to that? But then that's all well and good, but if your answer to that is the same as all your competitors, so that's where the third C comes in, how is it distinctive or different depending on which side of the fence you sit on with that. But ultimately, if you're just doing the same as what your competitors are doing, whether that's through communications or through a product level, then you're not genuinely creating value because you're just interchangeable. So we understand what that customer wants, needs, we understand what our company does in relation to those needs and then we understand what the competitors are doing. So we can create something in the middle. And that is your strategy. Your strategy is what you do in the middle of that. And that's your call it competitive advantage proposition, positioning thousands of different ways of describing it. And then you bring in the tactical expertise.

[Will]

And how do we articulate that? Because, I mean, I was reading examples of, in fact, I read Alistair Campbell's book on strategy, which is, which is brilliant actually, and is using all of his kind of political learnings into how to articulate strategy. And he has the same argument, actually, that even the most sophisticated business people often can't articulate strategy and don't think strategically and they leap straight to tactics. And I read that Apple, for example, when Steve Jobs came back for a second time, the company was in a terrible state and essentially the objective was survival and the strategy was simplify. And that was it. Yeah, and that was his, you know, and it was arguing that actually some strategy, you know, you don't need 20 pages to try and articulate a strategy. Is that right? You know, should, should kind of you, you be able to articulate it on a single page. Once you've done all of that insight,

[Ben Norman]

you should be able to. You can't always, because it depends if, if you're. Depends on how strong your strategy is. But going back to that point of strategy is choosing what not to do. Apple have always been a great example of this. In fact, on, on the Mini mba, Mark Ritson uses Apple as a great example of this. When Steve Jobs relaunched Apple and he put three words up on a slot on a screen and it was, I believe it was simplicity, simple, human and creative. Maybe it was Those three, I can't remember exactly, but. And he's like, that's a strategy. That sounds dead simple, but the process of getting there, if you think to sort of use another example, got me using my hands again and getting a bit excited. If you think of it as a bow tie, the diagnosis is a, is you've, you've got quite a broad thing on this, on, on the left hand side, you've got lots of information about your customer, about where you want to go, about your category, that you're in all those sorts of things. So big load of information to get to the strategy. You distill, distill, distill, distill, distill to a point where you might be left with one word, you might be left. What I often like to write is a manifesto. So that would be on a single, a single slide. It might be a couple of paragraphs, but there's also a one sentence version of that. And then if you take that one sentence, you can probably create a single word out of it. But it's something that is a very clear articulation of who we're going, who, who we are for what we offer them and how that may, and how that stands out from, from the competition or all the available alternatives. And then it goes out again. That's why it becomes a bow tie, because that's when you then get, when you, when you've got that, you then get into the tactical execution of it and then you can have a thousand PR ideas off the back of it. You can have a thousand TV potential executions in tv. You can be thinking about what you do on social media, but what that, you've got to have that very clear and very simple. You don't need 20 boxes on a brand passport or a brand house or a brand bloody salad bowl, whatever people want to call these things. You need to have a very clear articulation of what it is and what you do. And then from that you can start to pick up the tools and start doing your tactical planning.

[Host 2]

So right, when you work with like a big brand, what are the things that you often you're trying to get them to answer before any creative or channel decisions happen. Like what you've just discussed there. You've got the bow tie, you get tight and then you go, so what the, what the, what do you do before you make any creative or channel decisions?

[Ben Norman]

So my process, it kind of varies depending on the client. So listen to the client and find out how they might approach things. They might have a founder who Knows everything. They can give me the answers. Yeah, they might have a sales team that are clashing with a product team clashing with. So it depends on the organizational setup. My first point of call is always stop speaking. Start listening arrangements, interviews with as many people in that organization as you possibly can. So speak to. Speak to them or absorb everything that they've got to say. Do that on their own, not in a workshop. Because then people are freed of. If they know they're just having a one on one chat with you. Yeah, they're not afraid of what the boss is going to think to what they say.

[Host 2]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ben Norman]

But also what I like to call speaking to customer connectors. And that's what I was saying before then about sales teams or customer service team. If you're working with an insurance company, the first thing you want to do is speak to the people that are in the call center. Yeah, speak to or. I've done quite a bit of work with citizens advice over the years. They have people on the front line every day speaking to people that need their help. Speak to those people as much as you want to speak to the marketing team or as much as you want to speak to the CEO, whatever it might be. So start by listening, then ask all of those people equally. Ask your marketing team, ask product teams, etc. Bombard me with everything you have on your brand. Bombard me with your previous campaigns, bombard me with all that stuff and let me get lost in it for a couple of days just so I can absorb everything from your point of view. Then what I want to do is go out and actually see and speak to the art. So it goes back to those three Cs, everything comes back to the three Cs. So go out and. And speak to if. Whether it's through quant, whether it's qual, whether it's. I'm a big fan of ethnographic research. So I will go into a high street without any, without telling people what I'm doing and just speak to people and ask them questions about that category. I'll go into a supermarket and ask them questions. I'll go into B and Q while someone's shopping the paint shelf because one of our customers, one of our clients is Valspar and I'll just watch people shopping that fixture and I'll ask them questions.

[Host 2]

You're essentially a retail stalker is what you're in.

[Will]

I'm a retail stalker until security remove you from the building.

[Ben Norman]

I've been banned from more retailers than you possibly can think and almost always for work.

[Will]

Almost always.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah. And then. And then look at the cast. So. And then look at. You come look at the competition and try and take. So when we get onto the third C, when we're gathering information, doing the diagnosis, try and think of it as alternatives, not as competitors. If you think of competitors, competitor to a Snickers is a kick.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

Because that's in the category. That's the stuff that's on the shelf next to it. Try and think of alternatives. My number one alternative to a Snickers is me not eating a snack. Another alternative might be me having a protein shake that feels a little bit better. Another alternative might be me having an apple.

[Host 2]

So we got Snickers now.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So try and think about your alternative.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

Thing or the alternative ways to meet that need in that occasion or when that need arises, rather than just thinking about who's the competitor.

[Host 2]

Direct, directly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Will]

So how long do we need to spend in. I mean, in an ideal world, you spend weeks in this kind of insight phase, wouldn't you?

[Host 2]

I mean, that cost you a thought. That cost a brand.

[Ben Norman]

Spend too long.

[Will]

What's the.

[Ben Norman]

Spend too long.

[Will]

What's the practical reality then? You know, if you. If you've got a brief, you know, what is the right amount? Is it. Is there a right amount of time to spend to. To make it commercially viable?

[Host 1]

This is a message from the show's sponsors. Prohibition pr. We're Yorkshire's biggest PR agency and we specialize in delivering amazing video content and podcasting content. And we guarantee we can get your podcast, whether new or created by us, or if you've already got one, into a top 20 category in any country. Just drop me a line if you're interested in that. But meanwhile, we've got loads and loads of free stuff. We've got an entire events catalog packed for you with more than 15 webinars available free and on demand, whenever you want to watch them or listen to them. If you. It's me and the lovely Will talking through all sorts of topics from social media, public relations, content marketing, video execution. You name it, we talk about it. And we've also got two live events coming up, both in June, July. So the June and July ones is from creators to closers. It's all about influencer marketing and influencer ambassadorship and all that. We've got another event in September and October called how to Create Scroll Stopping Content that converts. Bit of a mouthful but amazing. All completely free. So if you want to come along to our events, for free.

[Host 2]

This is your bag.

[Host 1]

You. Enjoy the show. First of all, give us a like and subscribe. And please, please give us a review because we've got about 20 and we've got like 365,000 downloads, so it'd be nice to hear from you. I'll give you a shout out, but

[Host 2]

if you want to listen, if you

[Host 1]

want to register for the events, you can go to prohibitionpr.co.uk and click on upcoming events. Really easy to do. Register and yeah, Will and I will see you there and we'll have a chat with you. So thanks for listening. We'll.

[Host 2]

We really appreciate it.

[Host 1]

Thank you. Enjoy the show.

[Ben Norman]

I think when you've done this enough time, when you've done this long enough, I think you get a gut feel or you get a feel for when you know enough, but also you get a good gut feel from when your client service team start telling you you spent too much time on the job, so you have to move on. But I think especially when you're speaking to people, once you start hearing the same thing over and over again.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

And you. There's a. There's kind of a. There's diminishing returns on the conversations that you're having.

[Will]

Equally, there will be those insights right there about a product or a brand that, that are shared.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So speak to it, speak to people. Until you start hearing the same thing. Until you start just feeling like you're not really learning anything more. And then when you've absorbed as much as you can from the information that's already out there, then you have to get to a point where you start. You start cracking on and forming a strategy then. And it depends if there's budget for testing strategies, then that's. That's great because you can start to get to that point of having some rough propositions.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

Mapped out and then you're either testing them back with the client and you're going back and speaking to that client and saying, look, there's always more than one right answer. It's just there are some answers that are more right than another. I don't really subscribe to this theory that an agency has to go in with one solution. And that is, by the way, guys, we are the agency that's come up with the one solution to your problem.

[Host 2]

I've seen that argument so many times. Go with three, go with five, go with one. And then you're confident. It's.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, I like to go with a couple. I think, like, it depends on the client. Again, a client might say, just give me your recommendation, that's fine. But what I like to do, because this is before we've got into the tactical. Yeah, it's like, you know what, there are different. There are a few different ways that we can solve your problem, but you have to rationalize. I think this is more right or more this. This one's slightly more right in this scenario. This one's slightly more in this scenario. So, yeah, pull together your thoughts, pull together your ideas, but then move on and start to form it. And you'll start to get a feel then of if a proposition, if a strategy that you're building is right for that client or not.

[Will]

Well, why don't you talk about the McCafe example? So when you. When you did a session with us. Yeah, that was a really good example as far as I was concerned about that universal insight that absolutely creates an idea that just connects with people.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, so. So the McCafe example is my favorite. If I'm ever doing training on strategy or I'm ever talking to clients about what the three Cs is, I think it's. I don't know, people might remember the campaign, they might not. But in a nutshell, they wanted to increase sales of coffee at McDonald's. They wanted to be seen differently in the market for coffee. But what they realized is, well, we can't really. So we've looked at our customer and what we found when looking at the customer see is that our customers want decent coffee. We all. That's a universal truth. People don't want to drink crap coffee. But what we also. But they're a bit tired of coffee, ponsory coffee nonsense. The coffee shops that you go into, where it's less. It's more about the artistry than the coffee or whatever it might be, or serving up three different. You've got three different test tubes and you assemble.

[Host 2]

Just to be clear, that's what Will loves.

[Will]

I heard about a new thing the other day, a dry cappuccino, if anyone knows.

[Host 2]

The hell is that?

[Will]

It's a black coffee with just foam on top. Milk foam. I mean, that's an example of like crappy wankery.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

So, yeah, so they. So they looked at their audience and they're like, people want good coffee, but they don't want.

[Will]

No, sorry, shatter. So that doesn't quite work, does it? Sorry, carry on.

[Ben Norman]

Well, it's a different thing. But yeah, so they, they understood their audience. They understood that people want good coffee, but there are not not everybody. But this. This group of people that we've identified as the people that we want to achieve growth, growth within. They're probably getting a coffee from Greggs, but maybe they're not thinking about McAfee or they're probably at Costa, where we know the coffee's not great, but they're not. Then they're not thinking of McDonald's in that scenario. Then on the FL, then they look at. So what's the competition? Well, the competition is either people that are above us or below us were McDonald's. We're in the middle ground. But then what. What, as a company, do we offer? Well, we use 100 Arabica beans. Our beans are the same as they use in Start, whatever it might be. So we've got a genuine claim to decent coffee, but we also offer it without the knot. You can walk in and out and it's 1 pound, 20, and then you're on your way with coffee. But they've created. They created this campaign where they essentially, it's a versus rather than an about positioning, which means they've. They've positioned themselves versus something else in a very clear way. Think the way that brewdog positioned themselves or did. Rather than positioning them, rather than just focusing on themselves, what they did is they created a campaign that was about essentially taking the piss out of coffee ponssery. And then at the end, they just introduced themselves as the antidote to that. But you can see that strategy coming through really clearly. You can. You can dissect it so clearly when you watch the ad. So I'd encourage anyone, if you want to see what a good story looks like.

[Will]

Very, very.

[Host 2]

I think the thing that I took away from that is you don't like Costa coffee. So why is that, do you think? Do you think the quality's gone down? And Costa.

[Ben Norman]

I wouldn't. Raw.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

It was quite good at one time. Then it seems to have. Costa seems to have lost its way a little bit.

[Ben Norman]

I don't know if cost has changed or if the. If everything else has come up around them, but I'm a big Greg's fan. I worked. I worked.

[Host 2]

Really. You like Greg's coffee?

[Ben Norman]

Greg's coffee, absolutely fine. Yeah. It serves a purpose. It's not my favorite, but I think. Yeah.

[Host 2]

What is your favorite?

[Ben Norman]

Quite like Nero. I know. I'm promoting it. Yeah. And I'm not on commission.

[Host 2]

Well, it's the nearest coffee house. It's not actually the nearest coffee house. We've got an independent downstairs.

[Ben Norman]

I would shout out to. To Fika as well in as a. Leads a Leeds coffee house.

[Host 2]

But yeah, well, I mean other coffee houses are available and if you want to sponsor the show, Cafe Nero, we are available.

[Will]

Well, they basically, they quietly do sponsor the show.

[Host 2]

Yeah. They. Every other episode. Yeah, they're getting on it every week anyway, it's the way we're going.

[Will]

But yeah, definitely look up that McDonald's campaign because for me it's the insight. It just connects with you, doesn't it? Because even if you are a coffee snob or you're not, you, you recognize it, don't you? And it. And it, and it's, it's.

[Ben Norman]

Yes, I still don't drink McDonald's coffee,

[Will]

but no, I don't. But we go on. To be clear, I, I think we'll, we'll get onto your mistakes, your many mistakes in a minute because I'm quite looking forward to hearing those. But with, with strategy, this sounds a bit. It feels like I'm dumbing it down a little bit, but I find it's good to apply this thinking of objectives, strategy, tactics to kind of everyday situations which, which kind of helps you then understand how it.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah.

[Will]

And I think it's worth kind of reminding yourself. So the example I was thinking was, you know, objective, clean, clean your house. Right.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Will]

So the strategy might be, I've got limited time, therefore I need to focus on the highest traffic areas. And then the tactics would be Hoover mop dust. So that's kind of breaking down like that.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Will]

And I find applying that, you know, I'm hungry, I need to go for lunch. What's my strategy? What are my tactics? I'm going to go on TripAdvisor and find the highest rated restaurants in Leeds at your center. But applying that kind of thinking forces you to then think about that professionally, doesn't it? And I think, you know, with, you can have training and you can learn this stuff, but often it is easy just to leap to tactics straight away, isn't it? And it's quite good for discipline.

[Ben Norman]

The house needs cleaning, so I just start cleaning. But yeah, and to be honest, that's the right, that, that I'm sure it's fine. But start with diagnosis. Go. I need to. So, so what is it that. So what's wrong? What needs to be done? What's, what's the like I'm, I'm renovating my house at the minute. And this thinking exactly applies. You don't just start renovating a house. You start by looking at what needs to be. So do the Diagnosis bit. What's actually wrong with it? I'm not going to start doing something. This is a big thing in marketing. I guess I'm going to start doing something, but it's not going to work because I've started replacing my kitchen and then I've realized that the damp behind one of the walls or that the rewire or that the wiring. So. And you properly looked at it first?

[Will]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

Knows what needs to be done.

[Will]

And you'd look at the. You might speak to estate agents and find out which. Which Renault can increase the value by the maximum amount. And it's all that kind of insight phase in theory.

[Host 2]

Renault. Sorry, you've lost me there. What car? What's a car got to do with the renovations o Reno?

[Ben Norman]

We're talking house speak now.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Okay. Which Renault?

[Ben Norman]

The best example of this is when you look at politics.

[Host 2]

Can we have a thumbs up for if you like Renault's or thumbs down, please?

[Ben Norman]

I think without getting political and without having any. Any sort of political angle with this, I think when you think about politics you can very quickly start to look and think. Has that party diagnosed the problem with the country, with the audience, whatever it might be? Have they come up with a plan for how they're going to solve it? And then have they got tactics for doing oh well, or is it scrambling around thinking how do we win more

[Will]

seats of any discipline in the entire country? Any industry, any sector, surely. And this is Alistair Campbell's argument, actually. Most politicians aren't terribly strategic and it.

[Host 2]

And it seems you don't have time though, do you? That's. That's the issue. I've got the problem that you've got. I've heard the argument today that. That obviously with the Kia Starmer, he's the current. Currently there's. There's going to be an. And we won't go political. But the fact that people in political parties, PMs, it's a horrible job.

[Host 1]

You.

[Host 2]

You basically, the last however many years it's been, all the Tories are awful.

[Host 1]

They.

[Host 2]

They come in.

[Will]

I mean, Liz Truss been the Chelsea manager, isn't it?

[Host 2]

It's pretty bad, but it's bad because the economy's bad and the. The economy's bad. So it doesn't really matter what levers you pull. Because actually today, as of this. Was it. No, Yesterday I saw Rachel Reeves literally nearly do a hurdle out of there to try and bring some good news in the time that she's been in government and there was a. Not. Was it. Was it not 0.01% increase in GDP. And she was like saying this is fabulous. I was thinking is it fabulous? But the point is that the economy isn't doing well. Right. So when the economy isn't doing well, people are not giving you time. People are pissed off. They thought it was the Tories. Oh no, it's not Tories now it's labor and next thing it'll be. Next thing it could be reform, it could be any political. I've voted for all of them by the way. I'm not on any political party but I just go with who is got the best strategy. But at the moment none of them have a decent strategy, do they? I'm genuine. It'd be interesting to see if someone could come in with a decent long term strategy. Yeah.

[Will]

In marketing that's the equivalent of just going straight to performance marketing, isn't it? You know, if sales need address a

[Host 2]

place, it's exactly that. Yeah.

[Will]

It's not brand, it's rather than literally we brought that back to market so seamlessly.

[Ben Norman]

What I would say is when we talk about if, if we think so, the politicians example, but I'd also say anybody listening to this, as if you feel like you don't have enough time to do strategy, that it's all, it's, it's an irony in itself because we said earlier, strategy is the art of choosing what not to do.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

If strategy is the art of choosing what not to do, then by definition it saves you time.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

So pausing for a short moment deciding what the actual problem is.

[Host 2]

Taking off in your helicopter.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And looking down and then deciding what's the problem we're going to focus on. So if you feel like you've got 10 things on your list of things to do right now that you need to do more than that, you won't get them done. But if you go actually there are 1, 2, 3 things that are have a disproportionate impact on the success of this organization, this team, whatever it might be. You focus on those things and that you've got a strategy that is focused on solving the things that actually matter. You're more likely to get them done than you are if you just dive straight into the tools and start thinking it's the sort of busy fools definition.

[Will]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

Busy fools is a thing we've discussed recently actually what's something that you think the industry has become too obsessed with at the expense of doing genuinely effective marketing. And then we're not taking it straight back to the Politics example.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

So a couple of people that have been on Marketing Room 101 recently just to bring it back to me.

[Host 2]

Nice plug there for marketing one. Room 101. How do you do a podcast sponsored by Narrow.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, I hope so. They. So the theme that keeps coming up is the idea of let's stop obsessing over this versus that, over these false binaries, over brand versus performance, over short versus long, over social and digital versus tv. And I think they are so many.

[Host 2]

You've alienated so many people already there.

[Ben Norman]

But anybody who's. Anybody who thinks they're in one camp and that one camp is the right answer to any problem is by definition

[Host 2]

they're all on LinkedIn and they're the people.

[Ben Norman]

And surprise, surprise, if you're an expert in social media, you're going to go on LinkedIn and you're going to say the answer to all of all the problems in the world is social media.

[Host 2]

Cause of a lot.

[Ben Norman]

And. Yeah, yeah. And I'll give a plug to a

[Host 2]

guy called Social, by the way.

[Ben Norman]

Well, a guy called Tom Roach, who's a previous guy. He's very, he is very interesting voice and all this jellyfish. Yeah. Because he's just got that ability to see through it all is brilliant. Because he sees it. You bring them together.

[Will]

Every nail, the solution is a hammer.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, exactly. If you're a hammer, every, every solution is if you're. Whatever. Yeah, there's a saying that, something like that. Yeah. To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[Will]

Yeah, we'll cut out my rambled explanation.

[Ben Norman]

So, yeah, I think that's the thing. So whether it's obsessed with. I think anybody who's obsessed with one thing and thinks that's a solution to everything is not giving their clients the best possible answer. If you are an expert in social media, that's brilliant. And we need experts in social media, we need experts in tv, we need experts in email marketing, we need experts at whatever it might be. But start, just try and spend your time looking at how. What role your channel plays, because it doesn't play them all.

[Will]

Yeah, that, that lateral view is so important. I mean, and you, you know, if you're at a senior level in social media, you absolutely should have that broader picture, shouldn't you, to kind of obsess about one channel being. The only solution is, is. So I thought we got over that actually.

[Host 2]

But I think it means social media is one channel though as well, don't you? Like. Because you've got your channels in social media, but then Social media is what channel?

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, but I'll give you an example. So I was at an event yesterday. Sorry, I get about these things. I was at event yesterday. Not about events. God no. And a lot of people were talking about SEO, geo, social, search, aeo, all the. I was like, if you, if you think about it strategically rather than tactically. So SEO is a tactic. It's optimizing search engines to work in your favor. Geo is optimizing generative engines in your favor.

[Host 2]

Correct.

[Ben Norman]

Why is that? Not just search as a discipline, you start talking about it being so. Because search is the thing that the customer does. The customer has a need, that need needs to be fulfilled in some way. So they take a step, they realize, right, I'm no longer a passive customer in any way. Like I am now in market for something. I'm now in the market for a new toothbrush. So I'm going to go and search. I'm gonna. And I, I. What I want as a marketer then is I want an expert in search who doesn't think about SEO, geo, social service. I don't need an expert in all those things. I need someone who goes, right, okay, that once that person starts searching, here's how we can use all of those tools, whether it's geo, whether it's SEO, whether whatever it might be to meet the needs and to influence that person in the. In favor of my brand. So I think as a discipline, you start talking about it as search, not

[Will]

as SEO, Geo or whatever channel neutrality is what we need to move to.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, 100% because that's the best way to serve clients.

[Will]

Because that's. Naturally there's a commercial, you know, naturally the way agencies are set up is there's a commercial imperative to sell your services. So of course your niche becomes dispute.

[Host 2]

It fascinates me, the Geo AEO thing though, because you know, we're all waxing lyrical about Geo and aeo, which is basically large language models recommending you. But Google got it caught with its pants down. But actually now Google searches are still 95% of searches still today, which is insane because everyone's going on about Geo AEO and I actually do use various language models to do searches because I think it's better you get more refined, detailed response than just. But a lot of people still use Google and then use Google's Gemini AI powered search. Anyway, I have got one final question for you before we get into your mistakes, which is, right, you mentioned advertise. You did a degree in advertising. Communications. Communications. What element of your degree was that and what was it about? Are you using communications in a different way that I would use it?

[Ben Norman]

I found this quite interesting because when we talk about the way I see communications is the promotional. So if you think of the four P's of marketing, one of those P's is promotion.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Ben Norman]

About promoting your product or service to your audience. Essentially integrated all forms of marketing. Communications, PR being one of them.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

Advertising being one of them.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

I mean my degree was in advertising specifically.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

But when I talk about communications I think of communications as being the whole. The, the P of marketing that is about communicating your product or service to your audience.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

Whether that's through social media, whether that's owned, whether it's earned, whether it's paid, whether it's tv, whether it's social media, whatever it might be.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

But I also know that, you know, when we talk of, in, in the world of pr, it's, it's, it's a different. If you see someone as a communications director of an organization, it doesn't mean someone who's going to handle the advertising, does it? No, it sort of means. In a different way.

[Host 2]

But yeah, I mean my, my first job in, in. In comms, in communications was in. I was internal comms execration on a nuclear power station and my job was to communicate to all internal stakeholders and we did some external. Which would be your traditional media relations type stuff, but it was internal comms. So I was communicating through. You know, if you went on the site was like six miles square. So you know, you've got people inside a nuclear reactor, you've got people all in different environments. Some people in offices, some people in nuclear environment, some people outside and there was like TV screens all around the site and my job would be to communicate on those screens. So very different type of communications when you. But that's just part of a community. I find it interesting that the degrees even do what we're talking about, you know, like we're talking about search, marketing and, and branding stuff up. So advertising, communications, PR and communications, brand communicate, you know, I mean it's, it's all, it's interesting.

[Ben Norman]

Sometimes they even sit in different schools, don't they? Like yeah, I was in the school of creative, the creative arts school.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Ben Norman]

At the university. Whereas marketing people come out of the business school. I'm sure PR people will come out of. Where do you guys come out of?

[Will]

Everywhere.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah. Business is it.

[Will]

Well, it's marketing, P.R. i think humanities.

[Ben Norman]

Humanities, yeah. Yeah.

[Host 2]

So English degrees is. Few of Them.

[Ben Norman]

And I think that's part of the beauty of the industry, though, as well, is that. Is that variety. I think of different perspectives and different views. I think we should embrace that. But equally can be quite confusing for someone trying to get into the world of marketing.

[Host 2]

So this is the part of the show where we look at a mistake and what's been going on. And I think you've brought four pages of mistakes here and you've managed to double your fiance's. Managed to print them out in full black using our entire ink cartridge.

[Will]

20 pence a sheet.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Yeah. So do you want to walk us through what you've brought to the part? I love the fact you're so prepared.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So.

[Ben Norman]

Well, as somebody who I don't. If I mentioned I. I do do a podcast and you mentioned that, I'm just joking, but I think you have to be prepared. There's nothing worse than someone turning up who's not prepared. When you asked me at first I was like, oh, God, I don't know, where do I start? And then what I realize is I'm. First of all, I think my best mistakes are still ahead of me, but I do have a few. And I think I might be uniquely qualified for this because I think I'm actually the only marketer who has more mistakes to his name than successors. I think it's probably worked out quite well for this show.

[Host 2]

I think I probably continue. I could compete with you on that.

[Ben Norman]

So I started thinking about them and what I realized. I'm going to make you a menu.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Ben Norman]

Here you are. I've made you both a menu. Almost like a bit of a set menu. And I'll let you choose if you want me to read out. So what I've got is my menu of mistakes.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

So to start, you can choose between the flippant but slightly serious one.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Ben Norman]

Or the one that cost us. The one that cost us 70k.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Ben Norman]

The main event, you can have the one that ruined childhoods in Wetherby.

[Host 2]

I mean, that sounds interesting. That does sound like a quite a meaty, meaty minute.

[Will]

I find it hard to look beyond

[Host 2]

that one, mainly because it's got Weatherby in and that's where Will lives. Yeah, yeah, carry on.

[Ben Norman]

The one that ruined my engagement.

[Host 2]

I mean, that's interesting because she's in the building and I wouldn't mind hearing that story.

[Ben Norman]

She's approved me telling the story.

[Will]

You can have an amuse bouche at the end, though, can't you?

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, of course, yeah. The one that Cost us a big client. And then to finish, we have the choice between the one with the rotten running shoes or the one with the missing art director.

[Will]

I mean, my God, do you want to choose this? Do you want to choose the starter for us, Chris?

[Host 2]

Yeah, I think I'm going to go with the. Oh, no. The flipping but slightly serious one. Yeah, let's go for that.

[Ben Norman]

Well, my first reaction was when I thought about this, just choosing to work in marketing really, in the first place. Like people, you know, when you think about it and you think the career that we. The career that we have, and. And you sometimes. And people go, it's not brain surgery. And people say, it's not brain surgery. But let's be honest. Can you imagine being a brain surgeon who had to deal with three rounds of amends on final artwork on version 27 that's always been. Already been approved by seven different stakeholders? You don't have to go back and do all your work again, do you? No trusted to do your work. No one else goes to that brain surgeon. I know I'm not qualified in your area, but have you thought about doing it like this? Because my nephew has done a bit of brain surgery and they reckon that actually, if you just slice it here, it'll work.

[Host 1]

That's true.

[Ben Norman]

So there's something about it where I think. I think that's. Yeah. So there is a serious side to that.

[Host 2]

I've had people say that in meetings. I've got a nephew who's good on computers, you know, things like that.

[Ben Norman]

You know, so you think, God, what other industry could we have chosen to work in where everyone's an expert except you?

[Will]

When the perceived barrier to entry is low, though, isn't it? Because everyone's on Facebook and everyone thinks they can market.

[Host 2]

Yeah, everyone thinks they can do marketing.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Everywhere everyone's about to say this.

[Will]

I'd imagine careers like sales might be the same as well. Everyone thinks they could have a crack at it. Yeah. Actually, to succeed at a high level is incredibly strategic.

[Host 2]

A really brilliant salesperson's well worth the money, though, because they can really drive.

[Ben Norman]

It's not just having a Bluetooth earpiece

[Host 2]

in 2002 for everyone, that's absolutely smashing it. There's 10 of them that are useless in there, let's be honest.

[Will]

Probably in marketing as well, to be fair.

[Host 2]

Fair.

[Will]

Okay, that's.

[Ben Norman]

So that's my flippant but slightly serious.

[Will]

Yeah, that's wet my appetite. Okay, I'm on to the main event.

[Host 2]

I mean, I want to hear about Your engagement, let's say.

[Will]

Yeah, we'll save that for the, for the glass of brandy at the end. Okay. Let's have the one that ruined my childhoods in Weatherby. Only because you mentioned a mascot and in the PR industry almost everyone has to dress up as a mascot at some point when, when they were first in the career.

[Ben Norman]

What you can do, you can probably link this video as well if you like because there is a video of it happening. But so I let slip to a class.

[Host 2]

Definitely happening by the way.

[Ben Norman]

So. So we deal with some very big clients but we also for many years and they are still. They have a special place in my heart. One of my favorite clients is. Is whether it be Whaler fish and chips.

[Will]

Great fish and chips.

[Host 2]

Very popular with all the Premier League by the way. Oh yeah, I heard on a football podcast that. Yeah, the football podcast because of where the Weatherby Whaler is in the middle of the M1 a lot of Premier League football teams will stop and they'll. They'll have all pre ordered it come off and they'll go and get it and bring it onto the buses.

[Will]

The Lead United training grounds near there as well.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, yeah, we're a big fan of as well. So when I worked. So I looked after the Weatherby Whaler account, got along with them really well. But then I let slip that I'm, I'm kind of. I'm into running. When I had a few chats with them and they were like oh that's. It's interesting. Ben, have you how interested in running are you? I was like oh yeah, I do quite a bit. So they said right, good because we've got a mascot race coming up and the person that usually does it's left the business. Do you mind taking part at Wetherby Racecourse in the annual mascot event which is you have to run a couple of furlongs of Weatherby Race Track in, in the middle of a day of racing. How long's a furlong mascot? I've got no very, very, very far in my mind. That's all I can say because this

[Will]

is where the research and the insight should accomplish.

[Host 2]

You should have got your data.

[Ben Norman]

I signed up for it and there are a number of mistakes within this. But first of all it's about 25 degrees on that day and there is a park or not is a whale and it's a whale that's essentially a structure of quite heavy scaffolding and I'm 6 foot 2 and this is not designed for someone to be 6 foot 2. So it presses on every pressure point you can imagine when you're strapped into this outfit. You had. And I had to go around the parade ring. So you.

[Host 2]

Sorry, there's an important. You missed out on a pompom detail. What's, what's the whale called?

[Ben Norman]

Wally.

[Host 2]

Wally the Whale.

[Ben Norman]

So Wally the Whale, Weatherby Whalers mascot. So I, I was doing this and so it turns out they'd come fourth previously. They placed quite well.

[Host 2]

How many were in it?

[Ben Norman]

It's like 40 mascots. I was against Harry Gator from Harrogate.

[Host 2]

Oh, you see, I wave him every week.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah. It turns out Harry Gator's a she.

[Will]

I know the.

[Host 2]

Really?

[Will]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

Harry Gate is a she. There's the, the Bradford City Bantam. Some guy with ex military guy who is doing like backflips and stuff. Like scary guy. He's there having a fag before the race. God, I'm going to win it again.

[Host 2]

Sounds like an alternative universe madness.

[Ben Norman]

Absolutely.

[Host 2]

That'd be great. Video this. I want to see this video. So. So we're going to put this video in.

[Ben Norman]

What I didn't realize is how hard it was to run in this thing, but mainly how hard it is to see. And this is a crucial detail. You can't really see out of this outfit. And so we get to. Long story short, we get to the race. I'm like, I'm going to win this. I'm a secret weapon here. I've even, I even put my running shoes on beneath like the dislike. Disguised beneath it. I was like, I'm going to take this very seriously. And it, it was the hot. Like it's uphill, but there's jumps as well. There's jumps and you can't see. So I got over the first hurdle, second hurdle, third hurdle. I'm sort of thinking, what's going on the actual horse. Put some hay bales.

[Will]

All right.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Host 2]

So I thought you meant the actual nine foot fence.

[Ben Norman]

And then I got to the second to last jump thinking, God, this is, this is. I'm. I'm dying here. And I tripped over the last jump, ended up on the floor. My head came off right in front of the grandstand. So all of a sudden there's all these kids cheering. And then at that point those kids realize, oh, it's not actually a whale. It's some balding guy who's got a very red face who's like in fury because he's failed and let a client down. And also what I didn't realize is a lot of People that my principals have put quite big bets because you could bet on it as well. And they. They. I'd been picking it up to them as well.

[Will]

You lost some thousand.

[Host 2]

Some would call them wallies.

[Ben Norman]

They'd put like. Someone put like 30 quid, 40 quid on me to win. So that's that mistake. If that works for you.

[Will]

Wow.

[Host 2]

I mean, I like that.

[Will]

Yeah, I like that.

[Host 2]

I mean, you're not the first person to have on this show to talk about being dressed up as a mascot and the head falling off. No, you're not. You're not an exclusive. I have to say. There's been other stories. We're looking. How many.

[Will]

Let's go on to the dessert.

[Host 2]

Right, the dessert we've got to finish. We could have the one with the rotten running shoes. Sending my old stinking running shoes in a box to a new business lead thinking thinning. By the way, that says typo. Typo for the mistake. It was smart only to be completely blanked. Or the one with the missing art director turning up to a short shoot to a food shoot for Asda, only to realise I forgot to book the art director and decided in the moment to tell the client. I'm actually an art director as well. And client service and starting it out, literally. I mean, come on, let's hear that one.

[Ben Norman]

I mean, that's pretty much it.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

But I want to hear what. How it went.

[Ben Norman]

So, yeah, I was looking after Asda when I worked at Creative Race. I worked on food pos and I'd done quite a lot of these shoots. So we were shooting. I think it was pizza for Asda Cafe. So I got to go on all the sexy shoots. And yeah, we worked with quite a big photography studio, but it was always your art director runs the show and there's quite a lot, quite a lot to go out without direction of food shoots. Yeah, you know, it's quite technical.

[Host 2]

It's really technical.

[Ben Norman]

And we didn't have a food stylist on it either, really. Art director was going to do the food stuff because it was an art director. Quite specialist. This art director was great.

[Host 2]

We always have a food stylist. You've got to go there.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we. We do it.

[Host 2]

Principals.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, it's pretty place. So, yeah, they. They didn't. I just forgot. I just forgot to put the art director. But the client was there and I'm sat there and I was like, I've got two options here yourself. Fess up. Oh, yeah, three options. Do a shotay. That's what we're saying earlier. I fess up and we reschedule the shoot until we've got somebody who can,

[Host 2]

like a true hero, like owner, own it. Own your mistake.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Tell them that you've made a mistake and own it properly like a real man.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, yeah. Or I reveal to the client that I'm actually a trained as an art director. I've done it for years, but I've just moved into client service because I'm passionate for clients and all that sort of stuff and just style it out. So I did.

[Host 2]

And, you know, potentially is more the cowards route, I'd say you. You basically lied.

[Ben Norman]

It's a coward's route until you see your own art direction in Asda on the cafe menus that I did, that started out in a.

[Host 2]

Was it good?

[Ben Norman]

It's fine.

[Host 2]

You know, you're terrified.

[Will]

What did the art director say about it when they saw it?

[Host 2]

Yeah, that's a good question.

[Ben Norman]

I mean, it didn't go down that well back in the office, but did you get.

[Host 2]

But I'm not sure how much I

[Ben Norman]

could have styled it out because it was. It was for Valentine's. It's coming back to me now. It was a pizza shoot for Valentine's, and it was pepperoni pizza, but the pepperoni was in the shape of love hearts.

[Will]

Oh, lovely.

[Ben Norman]

And trying to cook them so they don't just look weird.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Will]

Because they immediately would shrivel up, wouldn't they?

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, But I'd seen enough that, you know, cooking them in a way. Yeah.

[Host 2]

I think nothing says Valentine's Day than a pizza from Asda. Really?

[Ben Norman]

No. It's up there with the. What is it? Q?

[Host 2]

The Champs Elysees.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, exactly. So there you go.

[Will]

Very good. I don't think anyone has been so organized with their mistakes as you. And I love the menu, so. Notes to future guests.

[Ben Norman]

Bring a menu.

[Host 2]

Someone say you brought a strategy to your mistakes.

[Will]

The bar is high.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, I'd like to think so. And then executed it.

[Host 2]

But is the food. Is the menu the strategy, or is it menu the tactics?

[Ben Norman]

I think this. I don't know.

[Host 2]

Neither do I. So there we go. We've broken down strategy and tactics, and we still don't have a fucking clue which way we've gone with it. So thanks for listening. I don't know if we've mentioned it, but you've got a podcast. So this is the question for you. What are the top three things that you would banish from brand strategy or marketing this year?

[Ben Norman]

This year yeah.

[Host 2]

Oh, yeah, this, you know, today.

[Will]

Just today.

[Ben Norman]

So I actually keep a list in my phone of ongoing. So the reason I set the podcast up, the reason I want to see the podcast is because I love this industry to bits. Might not come across with what I was just saying about deciding to choose marketing in the first place. I absolutely love it. I'm passionate about it. But I. I think I love it to a point where I get so frustrated with it because I want it to be better. I imagine it's like when you have kids, you love them. The more you love them, the more frustrated you get with them.

[Host 2]

That's true.

[Ben Norman]

So. But I do. There are a couple of things that stand out. I've got some flippant ones and I've got a serious one. Flippant ones. Two things that I want to get rid of.

[Host 2]

Okay, you've really thought about this. So this is a good question.

[Ben Norman]

You might throw this at me and I. I was thinking, right, okay, what are the. What are the things that improve my life the most? So there's the serious one. Two flippant ones. The flippant things I want to get rid of tiny microphones. What, the ones that hold with tiny microphones?

[Will]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

You just look stupid. Like, why is everyone dicking? It's no offense to anybod that uses tiny microphones, but what happened to a microphone that you could hold in your hand? Was that ever a problem that needed solving?

[Host 2]

I'm going to put a shout out to Andy Barr here, PR Andy Barr, because he does videos now. He's been doing loads of tick tocks recently. I've been checking them out. Andy. And Andy Barr has got the. The small one, so you can answer your question on a stick. He's got like a small one that he holds like this, which he talks to. And I've watched all the videos and then he's got another one which I quite like. And he walks into the. He walks into the public and then does what you do, you know, where you go, nasty people. And it says PR Andy Barr. And he'll go with a proper microphone. So you'd prefer that route. Right.

[Ben Norman]

I just think it's. I can't keep a straight face when I see people with these videos. So they just got the tiny little microphone pinched between the fingers. It's like when people, if you remember the craze when mobile phones got obsessed with being small.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

What was it? Why it never solved a problem.

[Host 2]

And there's no.

[Ben Norman]

The problem wasn't. My phone's too Big like.

[Will]

I don't know.

[Ben Norman]

It's like when you see someone with a half pint and you try and keep a straight face. Like just drink a pint. What you do. The other one is people using the word omnichannel wrong. The people. The amount of people I hear talk about omnichannel when they mean integrated omnichannel is. That is

[Host 2]

we got from half pint

[Ben Norman]

to omnichannel just every time I heard it yesterday.

[Host 2]

Look.

[Ben Norman]

It's the same as people using me talking about medias or mediums or you.

[Will]

Okay.

[Ben Norman]

It's just like. Just these little phrases like if you are told. If you're going to be an expert in this thing, understand what the bloody word means. Like it. You don't have an omnichannel communications campaign.

[Will]

So let's come on then, define.

[Host 2]

Omnichannel's frantically trying to figure out if he knows what it is.

[Ben Norman]

Is. I've just been social media.

[Host 2]

You've been the whole social media.

[Ben Norman]

I think the damage is. So I've recently read a book by someone called Sarah Wynn Williams. She's trying to be silent or she. She's having difficulties publishing her book and promoting her book. She works in a very senior position at Meta. Not Meta. Sorry to. I don't want to get sued at Facebook for many years and I won't go into the detail of it but the damage that that business is doing to the world, to the. To. To children and the effects that it's having on how.

[Host 2]

I agree.

[Ben Norman]

Like I just struggle to see. I struggle to see any benefit that it brings to society, to humanity. It does more harm than good. If I could wave a wand and just bin social media, I'll get rid

[Host 2]

of the whole thing. I think to add. To come to. If I can retort to that. Social media when it first came out was brilliant. It allows us to connect to people that we could never connect to and do the things that we're doing right now. Which is where you're interviewing or meeting people that you'd never meet. That all came about from social media.

[Will]

Yeah. Where did you draw the line? As well. Because WhatsApp and YouTube. Technically social media but necessarily as toxic as. So would you ban them as well?

[Ben Norman]

I think anything where you are where an algorithm can be controlled centrally to hate what people think exposed to has the ability to control cultural narrative, to control minds. They have more power than they should be allowed to have.

[Host 2]

Agreed.

[Will]

Is that not the same as the press though? So.

[Ben Norman]

Well, there's the difference with the Press. So this is where I think it's interesting to make.

[Host 2]

You've got a good point.

[Ben Norman]

But the press are accountable in some way. It's. If you publish something in a newspaper, if you put something on a news channel, on tv, you have regulations and rules that in some way you have to adhere to on social media that the, the proliferation of fake news, of people being allowed to say things with confidence without having the responsibility that the. What we might call the traditional press have to the truth. He's dangerous.

[Host 2]

I've got an idea. Right. You know our first conversation was about politics as a joke.

[Will]

It was UFOs actually.

[Host 2]

It was UFOs. Yeah. But do you. And the fact what we were talking about was politics and how PMs and the things can't stay in power. Not we weren't, you know, party. We weren't with a particular party. But do you think that if they ca. Whoever comes in, whatever happens now, why don't they review the social media policy and say stop putting people into two camps. Like somehow create a policy where it's not as controlling like you've just said. And legislation can do that to all of these social networks. And maybe you'll find that people aren't as angry at each other. Like fake anger where their point. They're prodded all the time. Hey, look at. This will make you angry. This will make you angry. This is them. They're awful. And if they change that, I wonder if PMs and politicians would start being more longer term again and we'd get longer term policy and a better run country. Have we just answered the entire. Do you know what I mean?

[Ben Norman]

Well, you've, you've answered it. But there are two, there are two points there. I think it's Scott Galloway that says that the professor. Rage is the new rage. Rage is the new sex or whatever it might be like. Rage. I can't remember the exact phrase but rage sells. Anger sells anger keeps people. You know, and that's, that's the new version of sex.

[Host 2]

That's what's wrong with social media.

[Ben Norman]

And then the algorithms are built around that. And the other point and this, this is where I don't know if I mentioned the name of this book before but read called Careless People by Sarah Wynne Williams. There's a very interesting point in the book where. And I'm going to say allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. Sandwich everything around that because I don't want to get sued.

[Host 2]

Do you want us to flash up a bigger one?

[Ben Norman]

Flash up. Please put that on the Screen. But there's a point in that book where a board meeting takes place where there is a discussion about how can we prevent Facebook from getting blocked in countries. These countries, the governments in countries are wanting to start apply legislation and if I'm remembering it correctly, the governments are interested in starting to control Facebook and block Facebook because of the proliferation of fake news etc. So what we're going to do is we're going to buddy up to certain more radical parties and help those parties sake to get into power because those parties won't block Facebook. There's a point where in the book they talk about buddying up to far right radical parties in Germany to help them get into, to help them gain power because they will help us stay unlocked.

[Host 2]

And yeah, I've got, I know we've got, I know we're over time but this is good. And the other, this is fascinating, this conversation but the other side of it is. And I heard somebody debating on one of the very many podcasts that I listen, I listen to so many. It are LLMs and obviously there's lots of different ones. All the AI different. Are they now, are they actually starting to sanitize and remove that anger? Because now you're not. You've got something else to talk to and it's giving you a more balanced view. Allegedly close brackets and it's not as biased as either eat right, you're left, they're terrible, you're great. You know, you be angry, you hate them, you love them and actually when you're using LLMs, they might bring it back. I think there's something there. I'm hoping that social media can keep the good bit of what made it great connection. But the anger and the stuff it does for kids is awful. So I really wish they'd sort it out through legislation.

[Ben Norman]

Yeah, I, I agree fully with that. If there, there are great parts to it. You know, my dad met his girlfriend on Facebook who he had never met and they last saw each other when they were 14 and then they both got divorced, went in different directions, met back up again because of Facebook. Like there is, there are all these beautiful stories.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Norman]

There are people who are so lonely, but then they become, you know, they can cure that through, you know, there is such a rosy side to it. But, but then there's.

[Will]

For me it's the videos of people falling over that would in 30 years ago. I mean they're hilarious.

[Ben Norman]

You've been framed, but infinite.

[Will]

Yeah, it's. And that moment would have never been captured, would it?

[Ben Norman]

Yeah.

[Will]

Just seeing stuff that's absolutely hilarious and. And it brings people joy.

[Host 2]

And this is where we drop the

[Will]

video of you falling over with your.

[Ben Norman]

I will share that video with you.

[Will]

So people will be listening to this. It's been brilliant. They'll be wanting to get in touch with you. I'm sure they want to put your brains on all sorts of issues and also listen to your podcast. How can people connect with you?

[Ben Norman]

So the easiest way. Yeah, get Facebook. Yeah, the easiest way is probably on LinkedIn. If you look for Ben Norman, I'm the bold one. There is one with her, but that. And reach out through that or it's just wherever you get your podcast. Marketing room 101.

[Will]

Fantastic. Well, thank you. Thank you for coming.

[Host 2]

It's been great. Thanks for listening to Embracing Marketing Mistakes. You've reached the end of the podcast.

[Host 1]

Hooray. What can you possibly do to help Chris and will the providers of this show? Well, what you can help us by

[Host 2]

doing is just please give us some feedback.

[Host 1]

Positive, negative, constructive. Well, hopefully not negative, but if you could give us a review somewhere, five star review, preferably wherever you get your podcast, it will really help for people to find the show because there's loads of other people out there that we'd love to hear about it. And the guests that come on here, we want to give them as much visibility as possible. So, yeah, I want to just thank you personally for listening to the show. I really appreciate it because it's a bit weird. We record it in Leeds and wherever you are around the world, from Peru to Estonia to Russia to Africa, I want to thank all of you for listening. Really appreciate it. So yeah, if you like the show, please, please give us a review because it means a lot. So thanks a lot and enjoy the rest of your week.

[Host 2]

See you next week.