← Embracing Marketing Mistakes
Loading summary
Transcript120 lines
- [00:00]
A
So, yeah, I'm leroy Tobrock. I'm 32 years old, I live in Austin, Texas, and I'm a YouTube strategist, meaning that I work with a wide variety of creators, brands on YouTube and help them get more organic views, make more revenue and make more of an impact on the platform.
- [00:26]
B
Leroy Tobrak, welcome to the show.
- [00:29]
A
Appreciate you. Thank you guys for having me.
- [00:31]
B
You. When we spoke before, you said there's a lot of people that misunderstand how to use YouTube. Is that, is that fair? Does that you, is that what you believe? And are people out there marketing people as well and podcast hosts getting YouTube wrong?
- [00:47]
A
Oh, absolutely. This is something that I, that's a, that's a hill I'm willing to die on, for sure. I've worked with a lot of brands around the world, like not just only creators, you know, individuals that, that build up a YouTube presence, but also, you know, multimillion dollar brands, even billion dollar brands that kind of use YouTube as their, I call it like a, it's like a, like a family scrapbook. You know, they just put everything on there that they think should be on a YouTube channel, from the latest manual of their newest oven to an HR celebration. Like, no real strategy behind it. And then they come to people, they turn to people like me and they're like, well, why is this not working well, you know, and then I always tell them, well, where do you want me to begin? Do you want me to make you cry about your, your current abilities or do you want me to sugarcoat it a little bit? So, absolutely, I think especially in. On the, the brand and business side of things, a lot of businesses do not know how to approach YouTube.
- [01:45]
C
At risk of asking an obvious question, how should they approach YouTube as its
- [01:50]
A
own entity, as its own thing that deserves its own strategy, that should have, you know, its own team almost, if possible. Of course, not all brands have budgets for that, but YouTube can be a great amplifier of whatever your brand or business may be. But you need to respect it as the platform that will, you know, that, that will need that own dedicated time and effort to get those organic views in.
- [02:17]
B
Yeah, because most people, I think brands, there'll be a lot of people listening that I've got YouTube channels and you see it all the time, like YouTube channels that have got, I don't know. And actually it's one of the reasons when people apply for the show, if I apply to be on the show, I'll look at their profile and they're like YouTube strategist and they've got like 200 views on one of their videos. And I'm like, I know you're not meant to be an influencer, but if you're going to be a strategist, whereas you've got 75,000 subscribers. Subscribers, you know what you're talking about. Clearly some of your clients you can't even talk about because they're quite high profile as well. But there's a lot of people out there that will be that struggle. As in, if you're a business, you might have, I don't know, 10, 15 videos on your YouTube channel. You stick it. The classic thing is they spend, I don't know, two or three grand, do an amazing video company video, slam it on YouTube, maybe they look at the title, they slap it up there, they've got maybe some interviews, the CEO and they've got like 64 views and 57 views and, and they're like, I'm just a million miles away from getting 2,000 views for per video. So how do you, how do you like deconstruct to get it, to get it started? How do you get someone from nothing to something, you know, I mean, well,
- [03:32]
A
so it depends a little bit on who I'm working with. Right? Like if it's a, if it's a brand, then it's a different conversation than if it's a creator. You know, someone who wants to become a YouTuber and someone who wants to make their full time gig being a YouTuber. When it comes to brands, I always go back to like, okay, the ultimate fundamental beginning is understanding who you're targeting. Like, who's your audience, who do you want to target? And if it's like, oh, let's say that you, I don't know, let's, let's come up with something creative here. I just had an oven manual. Let's say that you are an oven manufacturer. I don't know, you make ovens. You know, like the easiest thing to do of course is you know, make the how to videos on how to replace certain parts or how to install or how to do X, Y and Z. Like search intent based videos is the easiest way to, you know, get views over time that you know, is not seasonal, that will always, you know, have a place on your channel. But if you are after like, hey, we want to build a YouTube presence and we want people to know that we're the coolest oven brand in the world, you have actually need to go back to the drawing board and be like, okay, what makes people think that like, what makes your customer think that you are the most interesting brand in the world. And I want to buy that one over that one because I love their brand and I love what they're, what they stand for and I love how they, you know, create content. I see them everywhere. So I always go back to like the ultimate fundamentals of like, what audience do you want to attract and how do we attract them? Because YouTube essentially is a, it's a discovery platform. Right, right. Like it's not, I mean saying it's a video platform is too one dimensional. It's a platform where people discover videos. Like, if you open YouTube now, you will see a certain set of videos that are kind of tailored to your watch behavior. Because YouTube is like, hey, Will and Chris are on YouTube. Let's, let's see, you know, like, let's put these videos there. So you need to understand like, who you're targeting and how can we get in front of those people with content that resonates with them. And that is not, not like, like, come, come work with us video or a, you know, it was 20th year, 20th year at the oven company. Here's the birthday video or anniversary. You know, it's, it's going back to like the fundamentals of like, who's our customer and how do we reach them with content that is genuine and content that is organically interesting.
- [05:47]
C
So how do we, what sort of process would you go through to, to kind of discovering what would interest them and what kind of content to create for them? Is that just down to audience understanding?
- [05:58]
A
Well, of course, like, it starts with understanding like the audience, like the icp, so to say, like, of who do you want to attract. But another part is like understanding yourself. So understanding your business, understanding your company. One big thing that I, that I always say to every business that I talk to is like, you need to understand your unfair advantages. So unfair advantages are simply put, like, what can you do that another person can't do or another brand can do? Now I had a discussion here in south by Southwest here in Austin some time ago with a very big publicly traded brand and like one of their like board level members. And they were like, yeah, like we want to work with you because we don't understand like what we should make. And this is a good example of it. Like these people were making videos that they were also paying influencers, other creators to make. So it's like you're kind of cannibalizing what you're doing here. Like you are paying someone $10,000 to make a video on your product and reviewing it. But now you're also making that same type of video yourself. So what you're not doing is using your unfair advantages. The unfair advantage of that creator is established like they know what makes their position in the market like, work well, you guys are trying to do the same thing. Whereas you guys have access to all your products. You, you guys have access to larger budgets than that creator. So make videos that that creator cannot make. Make videos that strengthens whatever you're spending in other places. And that's where like that, like, understanding those unfair advantages is a very, very big thing for me is like, let's just write down what makes us unique. What can we do that other channels can't do? You know, what can we ship faster than anyone? And really focusing on like having that ICP connected to those unfair advantages.
- [07:43]
B
Is that what you do? Then you'll analyze like a channel? Is that how you would analyze a channel? You look at the ICP of who they're trying to attract and then you go in and what, slash down, look at, look at all the videos they've done, break them down and then say, actually you should be doing this, this and this. And if so, what are the things that you usually find that basically the biggest. I know this shows about mistake. The biggest mistakes that most people make.
- [08:10]
A
Yeah. So yeah, that's pretty much how I work. And it's like, it's a process. Like it's a gradual process. Like these are the first fundamental steps that I would take with anyone I work with. And that's like, I do the same with creators, you know, I also want to know their unfair advantages. That's where I've had talks with people. Like every year I do one day where I open my calendar to anyone and it's first come, first serve. So it's like, hey, you want to talk to me? You want to have a free one on one with me? 60 minutes, it's open now. And it's like it's always gone within a few minutes. And a lot of people that I talk to then are like early, early stage creators who can't afford to work with someone like me. Right. These people are like, well, I will never forget one conversation I had with someone that said, you know, I want to be a YouTuber so bad, but I'm 31. I feel like I've kind of thrown my life away. I've just spent, you know, playing video games. Like, I still live with my parents. Like, I'm a failure. I was like, okay, what kind of video games do you play? And he kind of looked at me odd. He's like, what does that have to do with anything? Like, well, you know, I'm like, I was top 100 or something in World of Warcraft at some point. I was like, okay, there's a channel. He's like, what do you mean? It's like, well, listen, if you're that good at a video game, you probably have a lot more knowledge about this game and understanding of the lore and everything around it than 99% of people in the world. You were literally in the top 100 of a very, very popular game for a long time instead of seeing that as a waste. Like, the beauty of YouTube is that you can kind of make a living with a lot of very niche hobbies and a lot of very niche products by just understanding who you're talking to and how to package videos that are interesting for that audience. And that's a cool thing, in my opinion, about YouTube. Like, you can be into short wheel model trains and still make a few thousand dollars a month on YouTube making videos about those short wheel model trains.
- [10:11]
B
This is a message from the show's sponsors. Prohibition pr. We're Yorkshire's biggest PR agency and we specialize in delivering amazing video content and podcasting content. And we guarantee we can get your podcast, whether new or created by us, or if you've already got one, into a top 20 category in any country. Just drop me a line if you're interested in that. But meanwhile, we've got loads and loads of free stuff. We've got an entire events catalog packed for you with more than 15 webinars available free and on demand. Whenever you want to watch them or listen to them, it's me and the lovely Will talking through all sorts of topics from social media, public relations, content marketing, video execution. You name it, we talk about it. And we've also got two live events coming up, both in June, July. So the June and July ones is from creators to closers. It's all about influencer marketing and influencer ambassadorship and all that. We've got another event in September and October called how to Create Scroll Stopping Content that converts Bit of a mouthful, but amazing. All completely free. So if you want to come along to our events for free, this is your bag. You enjoy the show. First of all, give us a Like and subscribe. And please, please give us a review because we've got about 20 and we've got like 365,000 downloads, so it'd be nice to hear from you. I'll give you a shout out, but if you want to listen, if you want to register for the events, you can go to prohibitionpr.co.uk and click on upcoming events. Really easy to do. Register and yeah, Will and I will see you there and we'll have a chat with you. So thanks for listening. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Enjoy the show.
- [11:50]
C
So obviously you work with creators, you work with businesses. I can almost, I can see the commercial model with creators. I mean ultimately in a lot of cases it's about selling advertising, I would imagine when it comes to businesses. What's the commercial opportunity then on being on YouTube, are we just talking about visibility and brand awareness or should we expect to ultimately convert customers, drive web clicks? You know, what are you seeing are the, are the most compelling commercial benefits of businesses investing time and effort into this?
- [12:24]
A
Yeah, so I always say like it's, it's almost a tiered model. Like let's say that your top of the pyramid are the, the biggest brands in the world that you, that we all know like from a Disney to a, I don't know, like from a car brand like Ford, whatever, right? Like those, the biggest brands that we all know through many, many different layers of marketing that you have the layers below that that are companies that are a little bit bigger that you know, might have like an office and a team, et cetera, et cetera. And they have solopreneurs. Let's just tier it that way for now. For the highest tier, 99% of doing YouTube well is visibility. And just like it replaces the, the billboard on the side of the, of the freeway. Right? Like it's, it's, it's that where people see your brand so many times that they, the next time they have to buy something where your brand is one of the options, the chances of them choosing your brand is higher. Right? That is for the, the highest tier brands. Like what I always say, like you guys should go for visibility, making content that resonates with people and that still fits your brand. Now when it comes to smaller companies under there, like I've worked with, with people who had a, I'll give you one example. There's a, there's a, a channel I work with and they're called John and Bob Smart Soil Solutions. They might make soil products. And I remember that he emailed me, I think that was six, seven months ago, something like that. Like hey, you know, I would love to work with you and you know, I've kind of been Full over the past year and a half. But I saw his email and I was like, I know absolutely nothing about landscaping and gardening. Like nothing. So they excited me. I was like, that's cool. Like, you know, I get to learn something while I help that person. And he has, you know, his smart soil products so you know how to make your soil healthier, a better garden, like thriving, etc. Etc. And had a web shop like, has his, like local places where he sells. And I was like, you know what? Yes, I want to work with you. This man is in his early 70s. I was like, this is the coolest client I'll ever have in my life. Like I never get to work with people like this. And I started working with him and his editor and videographer Brendan. And within a few months we went from 30,000 subscribers to over 100,000. But also his sales increased 60% month over month. So this while we made videos about like, you know, the 11 landscaping myths most people still believe don't do these, you know, those kinds of videos. The awareness for his brand became bigger. People started, you know, like trusting him with his, like from his advice and they started buying his products. So when you are one of those businesses that does, let's say a million a year in revenue, YouTube can be an amazing place to amplify that without having to spend, you know, $5 to get, you know, $2 back in like a, in an ad campaign or whatever. Like this is all organic. The only cost that he has is paying me and paying his editor that he was already paying before he worked with me. So I would say for like those mid sized businesses, the opportunity to actually increase your revenue on YouTube is immense.
- [15:29]
B
But what difference have you made there that. Because obviously he had the soil guy, let's call him the soil Bob, was it? I love Bob the soil man. So Bob in America, I like the idea that you've looked at what he was doing and he's on 30,000 subscribers and you've gone, right, that's great. So what did, what, what, what strategically and tactically did you do to change from 30,000 to 100,000? Because he already had somebody helping him do that. So you've come in and you've gone with a complete cold pair of eyes, if that's an expression, and assessed it. What did you, what did you change to make that happen?
- [16:10]
A
So like again, like, of course this changes channel per channel, right? Like what needs to change? But I always see myself as someone like when it comes to a channel of that size, like I still call them early stage. You know, 30,000 subscribers is. You know, you can get to 30,000 subscribers pretty easily if you have a few videos that accidentally do well like that, you know, there's still a way to accidentally get to 30,000 subscribers. Yeah, but I come in and I kind of see that as like the first prototype of a race car. I can kind of look at the channel and be like, okay, that doesn't work. Like, we should probably get other wheels on that. Like, this is not aerodynamic and the engine is not properly tuned with. With John and Bob's. What it was is like, I. I said his name's John, by the way. John Valentino. Great guy. I said John. The biggest problem you guys have is
- [16:56]
B
that John Valentina sounds like a gangster. John Valentino, I know he's.
- [17:02]
A
He's quite the opposite. He's the nicest man ever. But what I saw with them is their. Just, their. I. Their ideas were pretty solid, but their packaging was just not good and their hooks weren't great. So everything was just a little bit. It was kind of stuck in YouTube 2017. And I just came in, revamped pretty much the whole process. Like, how do we come up with ideas? How do we validate if an idea is a good idea or not? If we have an idea that's good, how do we ensure that the hook also fits that. That the package or the thumbnail and the title reflect what viewers are going to get in that video? So I kind of used my framework and my ideal framework that I've developed over the years, put it over their channel, and yeah, it was just a matter of months before we unlocked those, like, few things that was kind of blocking them to getting those videos that would consistently do above 50,000 views instead of, you know, 2,000 to 5,000.
- [17:59]
C
You talked about packaging then. Do you want to kind of elaborate on what you mean by that and also talk about how to package a video up, how, you know, what we need to think about when it comes to the thumbnail, the description. I mean, is there a formula for that? What you know, from your experience, what works?
- [18:16]
A
Yeah, no, of course. So when I say packaging, I want you to think of like, you're going to a store and you see your products on a shelf, Right. Like, it has the packaging and has the name on it. That kind of gives you an idea of, like, what am I going to get when I buy this product? Packaging for YouTube is the same thing, but now see it as the title and the thumbnail of the product. So When I say packaging, I mean title and thumbnail combined. Best practices. Well, first and foremost, the most important thing on YouTube is understanding what dominoes need to fall for a video to get 100,000 views or a million views. You know, like some of my clients get sad if we get less than 5 million views. So it depends what stage you're in, of course. But you need to understand, like, what domino needs to fall first. The first domino is the idea, if you can validate on YouTube, that somewhat of a similar idea that to what you're planning to make has done well before. You're taking a higher risk because you have no data that you know this idea has done well before. Something that we want to do has done well before. So you want to kind of research that like, hey, we have an idea to make a video about, I don't know, let's say fidget cubes. And that's like what we're into now. Like we're going to make a fidget cube video. Or like the. In your guys's sake, it might be a documentary on like how fidget cubes took over the ADHD marketplace. Whatever. That's the title I just came up with. I want to see, like, have there been any videos like that on the platform before? Something about a product that connected to like a neuro. Neuro kind of thing. Like, is there anything that's on the platform now? Let's say that I see multiple strong signals of, you know, a channel that had 50,000 subscribers, made one of these videos and they got 500,000 views. That's an outlier. You know, it's. It outperforms that channel subscribers. So we know for sure that it has gone to a cold audience. Great. Now let's say that I find ten of those examples. Now. I know my risk is decreasing of making a complete dud of a video. Next step is, okay, we know that the idea can work, but the next step is the packaging. Before we even start thinking about writing a script or recording anything, we need to make sure that we know how to package this. We need to make sure that we have at least three to five titles that we feel very confident about based on formats that we see on YouTube. And. And we need to have at least three to five thumbnail concepts that we know based on what we see on YouTube. Could work well. So that is like the pros, like
- [20:37]
B
the video for one video.
- [20:39]
A
One video. Absolutely.
- [20:41]
B
Five thumbnails and five titles for one. One video.
- [20:44]
A
Yeah. I mean, with some of the bigger channels that I Work with. Sometimes we have 20 variations per video. And I was like, when it. When YouTube is your main income and you're making, you know, let's say between 200,000 to 500,000 per month on that platform, you know, you'd be crazy not to try and optimize for the tiniest things, right? So that's where you have a, you know, a team of two or three thumbnail designers that are only repackaging older videos and that are only working on, you know, testing all the videos that have already been out because it's worth, you know, the juice is worth the squeeze. Now, when you're a starting creator, don't do that, but definitely get three to five thumbnail concepts done because you want to increase your chances of hitting a bullseye. So that is how I think about the packaging, you know, and that is like the dominoes that need to fall. If the idea inherently is flawed and it's just an idea that we can't find any proof for that something similar has done well before, that domino is not going to fall. The next domino is packaging. Then the next domino is the actual script.
- [21:46]
B
Right?
- [21:46]
A
The hook, you know, the storytelling, etc. The pacing, you know, optimizing for the retention of viewers. All these things need to fall to get to that end. Point being like, okay, this was our goal. Our goal was to get 100,000 views or to get 500,000 views. Those dominoes need to fall first.
- [22:04]
B
This is a purely selfish question because I look at YouTube every day and we'll ask the next question after this. Well, it's just because this is purely for the show. Our channel's like six and a half thousand subscribers, so we're nowhere near 30,000, 380 videos. Right. And the problem is, I think, is with what you're talking about, there is you're coming up with the title and the idea for the video, whereas we filming a YouTube, like for instance, this show. Now, we've come up with an idea for. We're going to be talking about YouTube. We'll come up with the title afterwards and we'll come up with some thumbnails. Are you saying that we should research our ideas for podcasts? And I know podcasts are a slightly different type of video and do it that way where we look at the outlying videos and then maybe think, right, we'll do a podcast on that. Is that how you would do it to maximize YouTube success for any particular podcasting people out there?
- [23:06]
A
Yeah. So of course, like with podcasts, there is. There are a few nuances that you have to keep in mind, right? Like, if you are, let's say that you are an early stage podcast, like, you can get all the guests in the world. Like, not everyone will give you that their time of day, so you have to work with what you can get. But I also work with one of the biggest podcasts in the world. I'm also working now on a podcast that is early stage that I'm, you know, a co founder in. So I'm in this space and I understand, like, what. What the limitations are. But if you know that you can get a guest, let's say, for example, you know, like, hey, we're getting Leroy on. Before you should even talk to me, you need to understand, like, what kind of YouTube strategy interviews are out there. And, you know, you could look at a good friend of mine, Grayson, his name is Vexian. He just did a podcast that did, like, I think is now, like 60,000 views or something. You have a bunch of patties who also lives here in Austin that did well on YouTube. You should always do the research beforehand. You should always know, like, okay, we can get. Leroy is okay. He's keen to do this podcast with us. What has worked in this niche before when it came to YouTube strategy content? You want to have an idea of, like, what is our framing going to be? Because your questions might change based on that. So what happens is, you know, like, if I talk about, like, you know, one of the biggest podcasts in the world that I work with, like, we get the biggest celebrities on, right? Like, the biggest people in the world. It's. That's a different game. The game's different because, you know, there are a lot more people interested in what Will Smith was doing on the set of his latest movie. Then there are people that are interested in hearing me blabber about YouTube, right? So it's a. It's a different. It's. It's a different market and it's a different type of video. But with that early stage podcast that I'm working with right now, like, we knew we were going to have a political scientist on for next week. So that's when I know, like, okay, I want to do research. Like, let. Let the team do research into that person. But I also want to know, like, what other similar types of content are doing well around the topics that that guy covers. So I have an idea of, like, how I want to frame my episode before, you know, the podcast host starts. Actually, like, even interviewing the guy, I give him that and be like, hey, this, like, I want to make sure that we can frame it around these subjects. So make sure that you talk about these subjects. And for him it's great because it's like awesome. So I have a thorough line that I can follow through the, through the episode and then you can go even deeper. You know, I also think about short form, so I want to make sure there are a few questions that are specifically there for short form content that I know. Like, hey, there's probably going to be a chance that this person will answer this question in a way that will do great for a 60 second max clip. So, you know, like a lot of research happens beforehand.
- [25:53]
B
With that in mind, what do you think about the moon base that was built by aliens in the pyramids on the, on the dark side of the moon?
- [26:00]
A
What I think about, well, the first dark side of the moon. I'm a big fan, but I know this is only for the people who know. It's only for the people who know. Absolutely, yeah, I'm a big fan and I believe it happened, it happened somewhere. We just don't know yet.
- [26:16]
B
Jokes will.
- [26:22]
C
I'll let you two catch up after the show. On the dark side of the Moon. What I was going to say, Leroy, was, and this might not be a straightforward answer. You sort of talk about these, these Bullseye videos or these super high performing videos. I mean, you know, we used to call them viral videos. I don't think that's a popular, popular term anymore. But do you see certain similarities in those super high performing videos? You know, is it an amazing hook? Is it, you know, what's your view on that? Or is it impossible to predict what's going to be one of those videos that just absolutely flies?
- [26:54]
A
I mean, there's definitely like, you know, I've done this for so long now that, you know, I have developed a gut feeling that I can trust like 70% of the time when it comes to this. And that's also why I made, you know, my, my frameworks to make sure that I also understood myself, what my gut was telling me and that I could write it down on paper. But I would say in, in most cases, if you're experienced at making YouTube videos in a wide variety of niches, you can, you can pretty reliably predict like this is probably going to be a great video. And it's not necessarily the hook, it's not necessarily one thing. Because what you need to understand is that YouTube itself doesn't even look at one metric. It doesn't look at like, oh, your CTR is 15%. So now I'm going to pull it in front of a hundred thousand more people. That's not how YouTube looks. YouTube looks at all these metrics individually and puts them together and looks at something that they call viewer satisfaction. If your video shows high signals of viewer satisfaction, YouTube will cluster it to more of those types of people. And that's what I always say, like, you know, you either can win on effort. So if you make a video like a great, you know, school boy. Example of this is when Mr. Beast came up, you know, he made a video, for example, say like Logan Paul 500,000 times. It was a video that was like, I, I don't know, it was, I think it was like 27 hours long. He sat there for 27 hours saying the same word over and over again. He just won. Not because he was the most charismatic, because he absolutely wasn't. Not because he was the best looking. I'm not here to judge. I can be one to judge about that. But, you know, I'm just stating the facts here. He won because he just did things that other people weren't willing to do. So when it comes to a podcast, for example, you either need to be able to get the guest that no one else is able to get, or you need to make an episode that a viewer is like, I can't stop watching this and this is just so good. I need to send this to my friends. Like, this is so valuable. Or this is so interesting. So it's like most of the time it's effort that wins. And it's then now, how can you package that effort in a way that, you know, you're increasing your chances of making this a viral video. And viral is still the way that we talk about it. I just like to use.
- [29:06]
C
Okay, you talked about effort there and I've seen you've written about this in the past. To what degree is AI going to influence YouTube? And I saw you giving this example of a. It was basically like a kind of an elderly American man giving recipes. And they dropped about 50 episodes. And you said, look, I can tell it's AI, but 95% of the audience can't. And it's probably a way of some kid getting five, $10,000 a month. So how kind of prolific is that, people using AI and is that going to be an issue for genuine creators or is that genuine creation in itself?
- [29:49]
A
Well, it is already an issue for genuine creators. And it's like, we are in an interesting time and it's going to be a tense time for a lot of creators as well in the coming five years. Because I've seen creators fall off simply because AI driven content has taken a lot of their market share and their demand. And some types of viewers do not care if they watch an AI video or an actual human. Luckily for most creators, a lot of people still care and a lot of people like Will. Actually, I've had this with documentary channels that I've worked with in the past where, you know, we needed to have a scene that we just couldn't find in the archives. So, you know, at some point you're like, okay, let's just use Cdance, you know, an AI video generator to get that scene so we can at least paint the picture of what we're talking about. And people went nuts in the comments. Like, you use AI. I'm unsubscribing. I don't want to watch anything that has AI slop in it. The question is, how long is it going to take before that switches? Because if I look at my daughter, you know, who is now turning four this month, she is growing up in a world of AI. Like she's growing up in a world where AI is normal. Like, I can, can fathom the idea like that we would have grown up with AI, whereas like, you know, we were in, in, you know, in primary school be like, I have to do homework. I'll just ask Chad GPT about it. Like would have been great. I would have done better in college probably. But you know, it's, it's a wild thing to me what's happening. And YouTube seems to have a bit of a finicky stance on it. It's, it's just not really a straight line that they're taking. They're demonetizing and banning channels that they call inauthentic. But at the same time they are releasing AI tools for their creators to make AI videos of yourself. So it's, I think we're in a, we're in a dangerous timeline when it comes to YouTube videos and content creation as a whole. And I think the only thing that is kind of keeping us from going to a very dystopian future is if these companies like Google, so you know, the mother company of YouTube, taking a stance on like we want to reward authenticity and real creators versus, you know, we just let the algorithm surface whatever, you know, people are interested in, regardless of human made or AI made.
- [32:05]
B
I've got. So I just want to take you back to your. And we'll get onto your mistake in a minute. I want to take you back to your five titles and your five thumbnails, right? So you've got your idea. You come up with your outliers. I love this idea. Outlying idea. So you look at your outliers. That gives you an idea for what you want to do. You show on or your video on, off you go. You come up with five titles and then you get five, five thumbnails. That's potentially 25 variations. How do you then test that stuff? Because I know on YouTube, for those people that don't use YouTube that much, you can test your thumbnails. It allows you to upload three. So we do that. We upload three. Not on our old videos, which, because some of them are just, yeah, not so great. The newer stuff. We do that, we'll test, you know, three and then we'll see. And then we get the famous message, thank you for testing with your thumbnails. Unfortunately, your test didn't receive enough impressions to have a winner. So that's basically saying you're not even interesting enough to get enough clicks, even though we've got like, like 500 views or something. So, yeah, what, so what, how do you test them? How are you testing? Are you creating five separate videos with five, five separate thumbnails? So like 25 different videos and then just deleting the ones that don't work?
- [33:17]
A
No, no, no, no, no, no. So in a case where it's like your channel, that is I would say, early stage, where you're still trying to get like, you know, crack a thousand views, I wouldn't test from the get go. The reason why is like, I want to start with the title and thumbnail that I feel I have the most evidence for. It will do. Well, because you're fishing in such a small pond now imagine that you, there's, there's this massive pond with three fish in it. It's like you can, you cannot even find them. If you would like hover over the pond. Like it's so big and there's only three fish. I'm not going to put out like multiple tests to, to get these three fish to be interested. I just want to know with one lure, like, does this work though? Doesn't work. Okay, let's change the lure. Does this work? I don't want to do multiple, like the chances of that even garnering me data, aka what YouTube is telling you, like, hey, I'm sorry, but we can give you like a definitive answer on this. I would start when It's a channel like yours. Just start with your. You know, like, this is what we feel most confident about. Like, we've seen proof on YouTube. Like, you know, we've documented. Like, this is a thumbnail concept that does well. This is a text on a thumbnail that does well. This is a title format that has worked many, many times before. Start with that. Don't start with a test. Now, if you're a little bit of a bigger channel or let's say that your video starts gaining traction now is what I want to do is I call umbrella testing. So an umbrella test is three very different thumbnail concepts that are not the same. Like, I'm not saying, like, one where I look like, smile, like, one where I'm smiling. One where I'm serious. Like, no, I want to see three very different concepts. Maybe one where I hold a, you know, I hold a paper with, like, the new rules of YouTube and they're blurred out. And maybe the. The second thumbnail is just a podcast thumbnail where you have my face and a quote next to it, like, this is why your channel sucks. And then the third one might be me showing the secret to YouTube success. You know, like, they're very different concept. They look different. That's what I call an umbrella test. I want to first start with three very different concepts. Now, if one of them works, that's when I'm like, okay, that one did better. Let's start making variations of those. Have we tried making that box, like, a more contrasting color, you know, compared to my. Our very coordinated, you know, shirts right now? Yeah, like, figuring out, like, the more the details of that thumbnail. Let's try a different text on it. Let's try a different expression. That's when you start testing, like, more granular things in that thumbnail. And that's when you start optimizing for point percentages. You start optimizing for, like, the little things and squeezing everything out. But the most important thing that any beginner creator should do is always have three thumbnails that are very different ready to test. But in your case, just start with the one that you're most confident about. Let that run for some time. Maybe after a week, it starts gaining. And then at some point you say, like, okay, now let's set a thumbnail test now that we have some traction and see what is actually the best one for the audience that it's pulling right now.
- [36:20]
B
Great tips. And so you've given. So you said ideal. You said you have the ideal framework, and I'M going to call it the YouTube cheat code. So what is. We've got ideal. I'm guessing that ideal. I'm going to guess this because I haven't read it for fully Ideal. I is the idea right?
- [36:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [36:41]
B
Wrong in it. Oh, that's right. Okay. D is. Come on, Will, help me out. Development.
- [36:48]
A
Nope, nope, nope.
- [36:50]
B
Delivery.
- [36:50]
C
Delivery.
- [36:52]
A
No, no, I'll give you one more distribution. One more. No, we're getting closer.
- [37:06]
C
We were losing our audience there, weren't we, Chris? We're about to lose. Everyone's about to switch off.
- [37:10]
A
Yeah, these were data.
- [37:11]
C
Yeah. Go and talk through the rest of it rather than us guess it.
- [37:14]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the E is for execution, A is for analysis, and L is for longevity.
- [37:20]
C
Simple as that.
- [37:21]
B
Need to go into a little bit more detail there.
- [37:23]
A
Yeah, of course. So, like, the ideal framework is again, like, this was me over the past few years trying to understand my own thought process better because, like, at some point you start taking for granted that you just kind of know certain things and have a gut feeling about certain things. And I was on a call with a big YouTube agency owner and his co founder, and he told me this was a light bulb moment for me. He told me, like, yeah, I was on a call with another strategist and we were talking about you a little bit, and I told him how fascinating it is to see you work because we've had calls in the past where you kind of say, like, okay, wait, hold on one second. And you're sharing your screen, you go to like, seven channels in five minutes, you mumble something under your breath, and then you come back with a title and thumbnail concept that outperforms anything we've ever done with that client. And we still don't understand why and how. That's when I realized, like, oh, I don't really know either. Like, I don't. I. If I would have to verbalize it, like, I don't know what I did. Like, I, I even thinking back at it, it's like, I don't know. It's just that gut feeling that, you know, my mind is connecting dots based on something that I'm seeing is like, okay, this is the one that we need to go for. So that's when I started, like, really thinking about how I need to write down my thought process because this is probably going to help a lot of beginners on YouTube instead of me putting it behind a massively overpriced course. I should probably write a book about this. You know, probably anyone that starts a YouTube channel can afford, like, a $20 book. So I started writing my book around my framework that's coming out later this year. And ideal stands for, like I said, idea. That's simply audience first ideation. So again, it's kind of what I already said in the beginning. Like, that is the first domino you need to come up. If you're a creator, like an actual YouTube creator, come up with 30 to 50 video ideas per week. And once a month, you're going to choose out of the 200 that you have, you're going to choose your top four, and those are the ones that you're going to make the rest of the screw them off, start again next month. You want to get good at becoming a master ideator. You want to become very good at understanding what are good ideas for YouTube. The D is then data. So once you have that idea, you want to understand with data, you, okay, is there proof that this is a good idea? So that's where you do the data analysis. Like, can I see on YouTube that similar ideas like the one that I've written down right now has done well before now, then you get to the E and E is execution. Execution is simply, okay, well, if there are all these great videos on YouTube that, you know, show that this is a great idea, what can I do to execute it different or better? Can I twist it? Do I have an unfair advantage that I found five steps ago when we talked about unfair advantages, like, can I spend a lot more time and money on this idea than the outliers that were already there? You don't want to make the same video. If you make the same video, you're going to get, you know, diminishing returns of that original outlier. Simple as that. You might siphon off some views, but nothing big. So that comes, like, to the execution layer. Then you have analysis. So that's. Now we've executed. The video is up. Now we need to analyze, after a month, look back at that video and understand, like, what are the metrics that I should be looking at? Like, what is my retention saying? Where are people dipping? You know, come up with 20 reasons why. You know, at minute three, people went from 40% watching to 20%. Like, what did I do in that part? Did I load something up wrong? Like, really obsess over the right analytics that you get from YouTube. And then you have l. The most important thing is looking back on that video. I always say, ask yourself, is this a video that gets me one step closer to my grand goal? And the grand goal doesn't have to be just saying a million subscribers on YouTube. It could also be like, if I talk to you and you say, oh, in five years, you know, I want to have 5 million subscribers, have five supercars and seven houses and three wives, I might give you a different strategy than someone says, like, I don't really care. I just want to, you know, be able to do this full time and make the best videos possible. So understanding, like, does. Is this video, you know, really there for longevity of that goal and helping that goal?
- [41:31]
C
Fantastic. And a lot of this is going to be covered in your book, is it? So what's the book called? And when are you planning on launching it?
- [41:39]
A
Yeah, so it's called the Ideal Framework. That's the title that I'm going for now. I'm trying to get it out before the holidays and, like, end of this year. That's my goal. I'm almost done. The manuscript is done, but I want to make sure that everything is in there is, like, accurate. And YouTube changes so much. Yeah, it's, you know, I want to make sure, like, I keep updating things just like, oh, man, I need to, like, redo part of this, or I have a new, you know, case study that I want to add in. So at some point I have to tell myself, okay, now's enough.
- [42:08]
B
Now it's definitely come on the show when you've launched, when you're about to launch your book, and you can give it a big plug, because I think that you come on and talk about how things have changed. We need to get to know.
- [42:18]
A
I'd love to, guys. Thank you.
- [42:20]
B
I could literally grill you all day, and literally, I need to. I need to ask you about your mistake because you've been very mysterious about a mistake that you've made. So do you want to let us in, Leroy, and tell us what. What's gone wrong in the world of YouTube?
- [42:33]
A
Well, it's not even like this. This mystery wasn't even to. To make it mysterious. I've made so many mistakes in my career that it. That it's hard to pick one. You know, Like, I think that's the. The biggest thing that I was like, I don't. I don't know. Like, I've made so many mistakes as. As both a strategist, as a business owner, as someone who is at multiple businesses. But I think the most. The biggest mistake that I've made when it comes to the work that I'm doing now is not testing more and not testing consistently. This is something that early in my career I can give you 10 examples of this where a video did great and you kind of like keep your hands off. It's like, oh, it's doing great, you know, like, oh, let's not touch it. Because you're almost like superstitious to, you know, screw something up. Where it's like, okay, well it's getting 100,000 views now every month. Let's not touch it. I think the biggest mistake that I've made early in my career that has, I think this has cost me, I think this has cost me like over like 100 million views, if I would trace it back. But it's just not testing more and not like even testing on a video that's doing great. Add new thumbnails, do more variations. That's the biggest. That when it comes to the work that I'm doing today is the biggest mistake that I've, I've made. Absolutely.
- [43:58]
B
Have you done it? Have you ever done a video where you've done all the data, you've done all your analysis, you've done everything that you've talked about there? Because there'll be people out there that have everyone's tried to do, to follow this best practice strategy. Just can't get it going like I said. And have you done all this research? You've. And you've come up with the idea, you've executed the video, you've done it to the, you've done it. It's just gone. It's happened as well, because you must do. Right.
- [44:21]
A
Listen, I always say this. I'm, I'm, I'm not a huge fan of the state of, of the industry that I'm in and especially the strategist industry. Reason why is a lot of people pretend that they know everything. Like, you know, I'm the all knowing strategist. Like I know everything. I can make everyone go viral. I have my, my magic wand and I do poof. And now boom, you go viral. What I always say is I get paid very well, very handsomely and I'm very grateful for that to be right. More on average than the average person. You know, I don't, I have videos where I was sure that it would, it would do amazing and for whatever reason we missed that one thing and it did not do amazing. Like that still happens to me, of course. You know, I'm, I'm human. I don't know everything. I'm not all knowing. But it's the same as like, you know, the, the best coaches in the World as in like, you know, let's say managers, you know, like even Pep Guardiola has it wrong sometimes and they lose, you know, and that's what. It's the exact same in my industry. I sometimes still have it wrong, but people pay me because I have it wrong less than most people.
- [45:28]
C
So.
- [45:28]
B
So from that I'm taking that you're the Pep Guardiola of YouTube Strategy.
- [45:33]
A
Yeah, I think I should have gotten a better. No, it should have been a better example. I'm not bald. I don't think a bald would look good on me either.
- [45:40]
B
Yoda and Pep are both bald. Actually.
- [45:44]
A
I'll take. I'll take Careg then. Michael Carrick, why not you your football
- [45:47]
B
knowledge down out in Austin, Texas?
- [45:50]
A
Hey listen, I'm from the Netherlands. You know, I moved here just like six months ago. So I'm a big football nerd.
- [45:57]
B
Do you watch the Premier League out there then?
- [45:59]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, the funny thing is here I actually get to watch the Prem for free here because it's not behind a paywall. Because in the US they're like, wow, we can't monetize that. Like people are not going to watch it. So I just, I have YouTube TV, of course I have YouTube TV. So it's like I can watch all the Prem games that I want for free. It's not behind a paywall at all.
- [46:19]
C
Happy day. Aren't they on like some mad time of. So what's three o' clock on a Saturday afternoon then in Austin, Texas? Is that it's now.
- [46:28]
B
Isn't it about 8 o', clock, isn't it?
- [46:30]
C
Oh, that's all right.
- [46:31]
A
Yeah. A 3 o' clock Saturday is. Well, most like a lot of Prem games would already be going on at three o'clock here. So I get to. If I want to watch Premier League games, I watch it like a lot in the, in the mornings. So it's like you know, Saturday morning like 10, I can watch like live games happening or nine. So yeah, I love, I love watching that. But I'm also getting into the NFL. I need to assimilate, you know, now living here, I'm getting into. Been to a few NBA games, college football. So I'm trying to become a, a good hybrid between a European and American.
- [47:06]
C
And what's the, what's the tech scene like in Austin, Texas? Obviously you've got south by Southwest festival every year and that actually started as a music. Is it right that that started. Did it start as a tech festival and became a music festival or did it start music festival.
- [47:20]
A
I think you're right. I think it started more like culture music and it became more of an like an everything festival over time because you also have like a bunch of like movie industry stuff happening around south by Southwest. So I think it's like pretty much all pillars of like big things that you can imagine.
- [47:38]
C
Right.
- [47:39]
A
But I didn't even go to south by Southwest really this year. I just had a few dinners that I was invited to. But you know, I have like three, four or five calls every single day. So I don't really get out of the house that much. And I don't tend to, to change those plans for, for a conference if I don't have to because I don't really like conferences, to be honest.
- [47:57]
B
What's your, what's your view on like segments then if you're doing so? Because a lot of brands will do it, like you said, do videos. They, let's say they've done the video. Their video is about their company. They, they've got the packaging right. What else, what else can you do to grow your channel? Is click through rate imperative? What are the sort of tricks that, what else is there other than the packaging? Or is it all as simple as the packaging and the time, the title and the thumbnail? Is that it now?
- [48:29]
C
And a great video? Of course.
- [48:31]
A
Yeah. The cool thing about doing YouTube at three the level that I do is that you realize like at the level that I'm working at is that I see this meme all the time where you have almost a bell curve. It's like beginners, like, oh, I need to optimize for AVD and CTR and optimize for this and that. And then the curve goes up to someone who's in the know. It's like kind of like the Dunning Kruger effect where it's like the more you know, the more you understand that you don't know everything. But the basis of it all is just make fucking good videos. That's it. Like make videos that people want to watch. If you make a video that people Want to watch, YouTube is now a point where the algorithm is so sophisticated that it will find an audience. YouTube doesn't give up on your video. You'll see it on your own podcast as well. It was like maybe, yeah, it might get 50 views on YouTube. But you will see over time that the impressions, they still trickle in. Because YouTube is not like, wow, that video shit, you know, nevermind, put it to the side. Like it will still revisit that Video. So as long as you make videos that people are actively enjoying or they're actively learning from or is actively inspiring them, YouTube will find your audience. And like looking at CTR, especially if you're an early stage creator or even AVD, I always say, like, just AVD focus on two things.
- [49:52]
B
Average.
- [49:53]
A
Average view duration.
- [49:54]
B
Duration. Yeah.
- [49:55]
A
So how long do people actually watch, you know, your video? Don't look at that. The only thing that is important to you is impressions and views. Like, just look at those two and that's it. If you see that the video is Getting no impressions, YouTube is probably not finding an audience of interested people for it. And that's what you need to like, keep in mind, is that there's no lie in those two metrics in views and impressions. CTR gets very murky. AVD gets very murky. Because if you have a video that goes out to, let's say that your video goes viral. I have many, many videos that have done tens of millions of views. Hundreds of million, millions of views. And the CTR is 1.4%. Now if you would show that a quote unquote, YouTube guru in isolation, they would say, like, oh, horrible, this video is going to do bad. Like, you need to change your thumbnail. Then you show them all this video got 104 million views. Never mind. So that's why I always say, like these metrics in isolation. Don't say anything.
- [50:53]
C
You said a sound bite there, which I think might be the title for the video. Just make great videos. I love it.
- [50:59]
A
I mean, yeah, it's true.
- [51:00]
C
As simple as that.
- [51:04]
B
What's the sort of one piece of advice you get? So is that it? That is your one piece of advice? Just make good videos?
- [51:11]
A
Well, it's hard to give one piece of advice because again, like, everyone is so different, right? Like, everyone has. Some people have a natural knack for knowing what a good video is, you know, like making a good video. Others don't. But they might have great ideas, but their ideas get severely limited by their execution. Right? Like, so everyone is so different. And like, part of my job is, is figuring that out. Like, what, what are your strengths and where do I need to like, really help you out? It's not always like across the board, especially when it's like really established creators that have bigger teams. But my, my advice is, if you are a beginner creator, if you're like a beginner business owner that wants to start on YouTube, is study the platform. Study what? Like, why are people on YouTube? Well, people are on YouTube to either learn something to like, I don't know how to. How to get bigger, bigger muscles, or they are on YouTube to pass the time, right? It's like, that is like the main two things of why people are on YouTube. Well, where. First understand where do I fall? Like, what content am I making? And two, what are the rules of that category? Like, what are. What is working right now? Just study the platform. Because YouTube is a very, very different beast than Instagram. Then LinkedIn, then TikTok. I know nothing at all about LinkedIn. I suck at it. I post on it because I kind of like. Well, I post on Twitter, so I'll just repurpose it there, I guess. But I. I hate it. I don't understand it. I don't know what to post there. Same for Instagram. I don't pretend I'm an expert there. I've never made anything go viral on Instagram. And same for Tick Tock. But I know YouTube. And YouTube is a beast on its own that you need to treat as it. It's be like, you know, its own being and like, really study that platform if you want to become a better creator on that platform.
- [52:57]
B
And if I. So obviously, if I was to say to you, right, Leroy, we have. We've got. We've had 300,000 views on our channel. We've got 6. 6.7 thousand subscribers. How do we make money from our channel? And how. If we. If we worked with you, how long would you think it would take to get some sort of return on what we would do together?
- [53:23]
A
First and foremost, it depends because, like, again, like, your guys's podcast is not just reliance on YouTube, right? Like, it's. It's bigger than YouTube. Like, you're. I would say, like, most of your listeners are on another platform, right?
- [53:35]
B
Yeah, that's. That's fair. We've got some on. On YouTube, but different platforms. Yeah.
- [53:40]
A
Yeah. So let me. You want me. Do you want me to be like, super, super honest here and like, let me just open your. Oh, yeah, I'm not gonna call out individual videos, but I'm just gonna open. I'm just gonna open your channel and I'm gonna tell you, like, okay, what do I see? First and foremost?
- [53:57]
B
Oh, my God,
- [54:00]
A
I'm. I'm gonna do this. Like, it's. You guys are gonna love it. And I think this is good for the people who watch and. Or listen to this. So if I look at. I'm not gonna call out individual videos because I don't want to like, make anyone Feel that I'm calling out a specific person or guest that you had on the episode. But the main thing that I see from the get go is that some of these topics are just not interesting at all, which is not. And I'll tell you why. If, if I think about a podcast, like why, why would. Do I listen to podcasts? I either listen to get in like informed about something, like to understand some, let's say, I don't know, a guy comes on Joe Rogan to talk about like a, like a very credentialed guy talks about like alien sightings. We were talking about different planets just now. Let's say that I'm interested in that. And the title might, might be of someone who clips it. Number one alien expert. I don't know, extraterrestrial expert. You know, we, we have seven confirmed sightings. If that is something that's interesting to me, I will click that because I want to hear like, oh, what's this about? Right. If you do not give me any promise of a transformation of where I'm now to where I'm getting to after listening to this podcast or watching this podcast, I'm not going to click it. Let's just be. I kind of have to single out certain ones. But I'm going to put the disclaimer, this is not about the guest. This is about the packaging. So I hope if this guest that was on sees this. This is not about you.
- [55:33]
C
We can always edit this.
- [55:35]
A
No, no, no. I'm going to say it like this. This is their fault. This is not your fault. This is Will and Chris's fault.
- [55:43]
B
Now let's say, for example, mistake another one.
- [55:47]
A
Yeah, let's say, for example, let's take a recent one, right? How challenger brands win without acting like challengers. Yeah, If I would see that on my homepage, I have no fucking clue what I'm going to watch at all. I have no idea what is a challenger brand first and foremost and win without acting like a child. Like, the only thing that I thought about was a, like a car, the challenger, a car. I don't know why, but that's the thing that I thought about. I don't understand what I'm getting. So if I, if you are competing with, with 12 other videos on my homepage, that's not the one I'm going to click because I don't know what I'm going to get out of this. I don't know what's going to, like how my life is going to change after watching it and I don't know if there's anything that I'm going to learn, so. And it's. It's a pretty big commitment to see 49 minutes and 53 seconds to kind of go on a whim, be like, maybe people don't do that because we have to understand that people on this homepage don't give a part of my friends, but this is just how I talk. They don't give a flying fuck about us. They don't care about how cool we are. Like, they, they don't know us, they just want to spend time on the platform. Right. So another example when clever marketing confuses customers and kill results. Another recent one. Right?
- [57:06]
B
Yeah.
- [57:08]
A
It doesn't promise me anything. It just tells me that, like, something is going to happen when it comes to marketing.
- [57:14]
C
So to. To reframe that, you know, we would. It'd be better to say something like, you know, the, the UK, the UK's number one B2B marketer. I mean, this is going to be too long. Shows you how to avoid killing your brand. Or there needs to be some sort of benefit articulated in, in the title. Is that. Is that what you're saying? I. Why, of course. Yeah, yeah.
- [57:39]
A
I don't like, again, like, I don't know this video. Right. Like, so I don't know what, what this, this specific segment is about, but when it comes to the, like, I saw also, like, the subconscious triggers behind every purchase decision. I know that, like, from the top of my head, I know that there are videos on YouTube about pricing psychology that have done really, really well. I'm just, I'm just going to do them. We're doing this live. Why not Pricing. Pricing Psychology. I'm going to look this one up.
- [58:06]
B
This is so.
- [58:07]
A
Yeah, Oren. So, Oren, this is someone like an agency that I'm an advising strategist to. They work with this guy and he had a video that did 92, 91,000 views in two weeks now. And the title is what actually makes people buy things. Pricing Psychology explained. Now this. If I see this title in thumbnail and I now understand, like, oh, I'm probably going to learn, like, like, what. How does this stuff work on me? Like, why do I always buy the highest tier of something? Right? Like that. I understand now that that is what I'm getting out of it. So it is a more. I would say it's a more primal way to package something that, like, I now know understand within two seconds what I'm getting. And the thumbnail, like, you can't see it, of course. So I'll just explain it. Like, we see one bottle on the left, and it says $27. Then we see a bigger one, and that's $97. And then we see a whole gift basket, and that's $374. And then the text above is pricing psychology. So it's a visual escalation of seeing pricing psychology in action.
- [59:15]
C
So a title like the pricing psychology tricks that work on you every day, Something like that would be.
- [59:22]
A
Would love that.
- [59:23]
C
Massively more compelling because it's intriguing. It articulates value. I think we've got some words to Chris.
- [59:30]
B
When he says we, he means me. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'll take that one on the chin. I don't mind. Everything can be improved at all times. And that's your point, isn't it? You can literally open up your videos and amend. Amend, check, change. Look at what's working. Fascinating.
- [59:49]
A
Yeah. And again, like, I just want to prep, like, say this as well, Kristen. Like, make you not go out of this feeling completely useless. Even if you work with someone like me, after we've made a video together, there's always things to improve. Even if we were together again, like, you know, I. I look back on videos that we've released. Like, I work with 12 channels a week, so I get to see a lot of videos. Every single week that gets released, I look at a video, be like, we should have done this differently. Like, now looking back at it, like, I think we should. Like, this could have been a little bit tighter or I would still want to change that thumbnail and test with this. Like, that still happens. You know, it's not just that as a beginner, you should feel like, oh, man, like, I'm making so many mistakes or whatever. They're not mistakes or data points. But now I gave you a data point of, like, hey, I knew from the top of my head because I do this, I'm chronically on YouTube. It's somewhat sad when you're in your 30s, but, you know, it's my job, so I have an excuse. You know, I. I saw that. That packaging, and I immediately went to something that was, like, buried somewhere in my brain. Like, oh, I've seen a video on this recently that did really well. And that's what, again, like, that's what people pay me for, you know, like, helping them be right on average more times than being in on their own.
- [60:59]
B
And so back to my question, which we've probably got one more after this. We've got the Final question, which I'll let. Will do. But, like, how long do you think it would be if someone like you worked with someone like us or a channel.
- [61:11]
C
Yeah.
- [61:11]
B
That you could make a difference where they could get a return on what they're doing with you. So. Because I know when we spoke initially, you said, I'm always. I aim to get this. The client gets Renaro a return. Not an roi, but a return on what they're doing pretty much very quickly. Because that makes you feel like, actually, I can sit back a bit now and take more. Because you want to feel like you've made a difference, right?
- [61:35]
A
Yeah, yeah, of course. Like, my aim is always, like, the fastest aim is. And this is also why I don't work with beginners as much, because it's a lot more of a finicky beast. But I always say, like, I want to make sure that we work towards a point where, like, what you're paying me a month for my retainer is offset by the increase in revenue that you've gotten. You know, like, that's like, then I at least feel better about myself. Like, most people won't give a crap about it, but it makes me feel good. It's like, okay, well, you're paying me, but it's not hurting you because this. You're making money you didn't have before we worked together. But it's hard to give, like, a straight answer to this. But when I would focus, like, purely on what you guys are doing, I think just focusing on better packaging, like, more ideation before a guest comes on, I think within two to three months, you would see a significant difference in views that you're garnering. But again, it depends a lot on how fast are you moving with the tools that I'm giving you. Because ultimately you still need to do it yourself. I help, but if you're like, well, yeah, we just kind of like afterthought, we just put on a thumbnail and title and that was it. I was like, well, that's not what you're paying me for. But fine. You know, it's still like, the ball is still for a big portion of it is in your court. So I'm always a bit cautious to say, like, oh, you know, like, this is what I would say for everyone. Because some creators work, you know, have one session with me and they go up 200, 300% in views in a month. Where others, you know, with. With. I would say, like, for example, the example that I gave earlier with John and Bob's Smart Soil Solutions. I think it took three months because we had to get out of YouTube 2017 and get into YouTube today and that takes time. But he was understanding of that and he knew, like, you know, I, this is going to pay off at some point. And yeah, he's making more money than he, than he's ever made.
- [63:26]
C
So this has been a great episode, Leroy. Absolutely packed with value and I think our listeners will be absolutely loving this, so they will be wanting to get in touch with you as well. And I know you're booked up and I know you're busy, but if people do want to reach out and get in touch, how do they contact you?
- [63:42]
A
Yeah, so I have my website, it's Leroy Creates dot com. You can always send an email to me through there, but I've heard I need to do more with LinkedIn. So just look me up on LinkedIn, send me messages there. I don't understand the platform, but I try to read my messages there for sure. The platform that I'm most active on is X. Twitter is still the biggest platform for people nerds like me in our industry, crazily enough. I don't know why, but it's where most of the creators still hang out. So if you have that, you can follow me there. Just my full name and I have my weekly newsletter that you can also find on my, on my website where I give out like free tips and tricks.
- [64:19]
C
Fantastic. And the final question that we ask all of our guests just to put you on the spot, who, if you could invite anybody onto the show next, who would you recommend we invited on? Ideally, someone with a few mistakes under their belt.
- [64:33]
A
No, I, I know him, I know him personally, so I know he's probably not going to do it, but I would really want to see Brad Malinowski. He's the chief marketing officer of WAP and they are making the next generation of Internet entrepreneurs. And it's a really, really exciting platform in my opinion. And they are. I think that he can give insights into how marketing is working in 10 years and I think that's really, really interesting.
- [65:10]
B
Thanks for listening to Embracing Marketing Mistakes. You've reached the end of the podcast. Hooray. What can you possibly do to help Chris and will the providers of this show? Well, what you can help us by doing is just please give us some feedback. Positive, negative, constructive. Well, hopefully not negative, but if you could give us a review somewhere, five star review, preferably wherever you get your podcast, it will really help for people to find the show because there's loads of other people out there that we'd love to hear about it. And the guests that come on here, we want to give them as much visibility as possible. So, yeah, I want to just thank you personally for listening to the show. I really appreciate it. Because it's a bit weird. We record it in Leeds and wherever you are around the world, from Peru to Estonia to Russia to Africa, I want to thank all of you for listening. Really appreciate it. So, yeah, if you like the show, please give us a review because it means a lot. So thanks a lot and enjoy the rest of your week. See you next week.