EP 120: We Fired 30 People and Nothing Changed

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Embracing Marketing Mistakes – EP 120: We Fired 30 People and Nothing Changed

Host: Chris Norton (Prohibition PR)
Guest: Hector Hughes (Co-Founder, Unplugged)
Date: July 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Embracing Marketing Mistakes pulls back the curtain on both the business of intentionally unplugging from digital life and the real, often-messy journey toward building a brand with purpose. Chris Norton welcomes Hector Hughes, co-founder of Unplugged, whose business model revolves around three-day digital detoxes in rural cabins. Their candid conversation weaves together lessons on distraction, authenticity, burnout, the myth of busywork, and the true foundation for word-of-mouth marketing—while consistently skewering the nonsense of performative corporate hustle.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Unplugged: The Business of Digital Detox

• Elevator Pitch: Unplugged offers three-night digital detox retreats in countryside cabins across the UK. Guests lock their phones away, receive a map, an old Nokia, and a Polaroid camera for the stay.
  (01:03)
  • Target User: 80% couples, 20% individuals; core age 25–late 30s.

“Can we actually get you to spend three days offline in nature? …We have cabins all across the UK. People go for three nights, lock their phone in a box… and leave them to it.”
—Hector Hughes (01:03)

2. Phone Abstinence and Relationship Truths

• Going offline together is deeply bonding—or, sometimes, sharply revealing for couples.
• Surprising statistic: even a switched-off phone reduces empathy between people. (02:11–03:27)
  • The absence of devices leaves you to “actually talk to each other.”
  • Unplugged has even catalyzed breakups—for the better.

“There’s something very confronting about going and spending three days offline together…”
—Hector Hughes (02:11)

3. Authenticity vs. Marketing Gimmick

• The digital detox concept is sometimes just a tagline for others. For Unplugged, it’s the brand's core.
• Inspiration sparked by Digital Minimalism (Cal Newport) and Hector’s silent retreat in the Himalayas. (05:00–06:56)
  • Realization after burnout: “We use [phones] to numb us. …There’s something very confronting about going and spending three days offline…”

4. Modern Distraction & Productivity Delusions

• Host and guest share personal stories about being forced offline (social media lockouts, tech mishaps). (06:56–10:06)
  • Even industry professionals admit: being unplugged can be a relief, not a loss.
• Key Insight: Most work is a waste of time. Activity doesn’t equal impact. (10:06–12:44)
  • “It’s always such an anti-climax turning your phone back on and not even your mum got in touch.”
    (Hector Hughes, 11:36)
  • Companies can fire teams and nothing changes: busywork is pervasive.

5. Biology vs. Modernity

• Humans are not wired for constant digital overstimulation.
• Three-day minimum for Unplugged stays is deliberate: it takes 24 hours just to “settle down.” (10:06–12:44)

  “We basically just spend our days in this dopamine-drained haze. …We’re built to roam around in forests.”
  —Hector Hughes (10:56)

6. The Value of Presence and Stillness

• Both agree: distraction is ego-driven, and being present is both hard and necessary, especially for men. (16:12–18:11)
• Yoga, meditation, even silent retreats as practices for learning to “sit with your feelings.” (18:11–19:06)

7. Career Mistakes: ‘A String of Failures in Roughly the Right Direction’

• Hector’s career: from unqualified startup roles to discovering that firing nearly entire teams had zero effect on sales or marketing results. (19:41–21:09)

  • The real lesson: focus on what truly matters, not quantifiable but marginal optimizations.
  • “I look back at what I did that year and I could have done none of it and probably nothing would have changed.”
    (Hector Hughes, 20:01)

• Companies waste time tracking metrics that don’t answer foundational questions:

  • “It’s better to have an approximate answer to the right question than the exact answer to the wrong question.”
    (Hector Hughes, 21:38)

8. Creativity and Digital Abstinence

• The best ideas come when totally unplugged—diffuse thinking, not focused. (26:51–28:25)
  • “If I go for an Unplugged experience, I’ll come back with ideas, energy… brains will make these connections you didn’t even think was possible.”
  • Host decides to try a phoneless walk after the episode!

9. Authenticity as a Brand Differentiator

• Don’t compete—just be uniquely you. (30:16–32:18)
  • “If you just try and amuse yourself, you’re probably going to amuse other people as well.”
  • Unplugged’s success is rooted in clear, authentic mission alignment.

10. Social Media Pragmatism and Realistic Detachment

• Paradox: Unplugged markets itself heavily on social media to reach the very audience it hopes will spend less time online. (32:18–34:01)
  • “You need to fish where the fish are… If you’re not spending any time on social media, then you don’t need to come.”
  • Books, music, and analog devices in cabins are allowed—because total sensory deprivation isn’t the (attainable) point.

11. Simple Takeaways

• You don’t need a cabin stay for mental clarity—try leaving your phone behind for just a walk.
• The tactile, imaginative act of reading is irreplaceable, despite digital innovation.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On doing work that matters:
  • “I look back at what I did that year and I could have done none of it and probably nothing would have changed.”
    (Hector Hughes, 20:01)
• On busywork and firing teams:
  • “We got rid of a 10-person marketing team and most of the 20-person sales team and nothing changed. The numbers didn’t change at all.”
    (Hector Hughes, 20:45)
• On authenticity:
  • “The best way to not compete is just to really be authentically yourself because no one can beat you at being you.”
    (Hector Hughes, 31:16)
• On presence and nature:
  • “We’re built to roam around in forests, hunting and gathering, and socializing. …Now we live in these massive cities with millions of people, living this very overstimulating life.”
    (Hector Hughes, 10:56)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:03 – What Unplugged is, who it’s for, and how it works
• 02:11 – How going phone-free radically impacts relationships
• 05:00–06:56 – Hector’s retreat in the Himalayas and origins of Unplugged
• 10:06–12:44 – The psychological and physiological reactions to unplugging
• 16:12–18:11 – The value of presence, yoga, and stillness for men
• 19:41–21:09 – Hector’s pivotal career mistake: running ineffective teams
• 26:51–28:25 – How unplugging boosts creativity and problem-solving
• 30:16–32:18 – Brand building through sheer, unapologetic authenticity
• 32:18–34:01 – The necessities (and hypocrisies) of social media for an anti-phone brand
• 36:31–37:37 – How to experience unplugging, from cabins to simple walks

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Closing

The episode offers a clear blueprint: strip away the noise, focus on what genuinely matters, and be unabashedly authentic in both business and life—even if it means recognizing the work you file is often work for its own sake. Whether you’re in marketing or just overwhelmed by distraction, the lesson is the same: get comfortable with yourself, question the necessity of your busyness, and don’t be afraid to unplug—creativity, clarity, and authenticity await.

Suggested Next Guest: Kit Gammell, founder of Surreal, cited for “really unique” and entertaining marketing at scale. (38:32)

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Transcript

[A]

This week, I'm joined by Hector Hughes, co founder of Unplugged. They basically get you to lock your phone in a box and you spend three days entirely offline in a cabin. But this week isn't just about digital detoxing. Hector reckons his career has been a string of failures in roughly the right direction. He ran growth at a tech startup and says he could have done none of it and nothing would have changed. Busy fools, as we often say on this show. So grab a brew, leave your phone in the other room if you can. And if you're brave enough, enjoy my chat with Hector Hughes. Enjoy. Hector Hughes, welcome to the show.

[B]

Chris, a joy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[A]

Well, yeah, slightly delayed, so we won't go into that. Marketing mistake, but we're here now. So for people who've not come across Unplugged before, do you want to give me the elevator pitch, like, in 30 seconds? What is it, who's it for? And what does it cost to be a guest? Basically, for sure.

[B]

For sure. So, really, our whole goal with Unplugged is can we actually get you to spend three days offline in nature? And we do this with digital detoxes at cabins in the countryside. So we have cabins all across the uk. People go for three nights, lock their phone in a box, we have them a map, a Nokia and a Polaroid camera and leave them to it. And who's it for? I mean, really, anyone who wants a break from their phone and is maybe feeling a little overwhelmed. It's about 80% couples that go and 20% individuals. Age range can be anything from 20 to 40s. Probably do get some people older than that, but I would say that the core is probably 25 to late 30s.

[A]

Yeah. You told me something the first time we spoke, which made me laugh a little bit, is that. I mean, this is a statistic. It's like it really tests your relationship, you said. Because obviously we are all distracted included. You know, whether you just. And when you haven't got your phone or anything to distract you, you've got to actually talk to each other. Right. Which is. Which is a unique experience. I don't think anyone's probably been fully unplugged for years, have they?

[B]

100%. Yeah. Because what we don't realize is that even having a phone switched off reduces empathy between two people. So just having a phone switched off on the table, and you can imagine how much that's increased if you're sat scrolling next to each other through TikTok. So I think phones, as well as lots of other things in our society, really, we use them to numb us. We use them to not face what we're feeling. And quite often that can be with relationships as well. So often there can be fundamental questions to face in a relationship, and we can spend months or even years ignoring them, scrolling on our phones, continuing to numb ourselves in any way possible. And there's something very confronting about going and spending three days offline together, because once you take the phone away, you take the distraction away, and you've got to face up to whatever the truth could be. So it's largely, incredibly bonding for couples, but we've seen on a number of occasions that actually it's been the catalyst to get a couple to realize that perhaps they're not. They're not right for each other. And that's. That's great as well. And I think it's. These things are important to happen. But, yeah, I told you the story of a friend of mine who's just had his first child with his partner, and his previous relationship ended in an unplugged cabin when they just realized that they fundamentally did not want to be together.

[A]

So the new strap line is unplugged. Testing your relationship. I wasn't like, 100% amazing. The other part of your story that fascinates me, I mean, there's loads of different layers to this, is that you set this business up with another guy called Ben, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the story is that you. How long have you been working together?

[B]

So we'd worked together for two years at a tech startup beforehand, and then we've now been working together for six years since.

[A]

Okay, but is it true that you've never met each other?

[B]

Where did you see that?

[A]

I don't know. I thought you'd never met each other. Is that not true? No, we're friends. We're friends. You've definitely met each other. Okay, good.

[B]

There's a Reddit. There's a Reddit post. When we launched where someone put our website, it was on one of these things that takes the piss out of anything in the uk and they said something like, yeah, sure, I'm going to pay £400 to go and stay in a shed owned by someone called Hector. And one of the comments on that thread was pretty sure Hector and Ben are the same person, just with different haircuts. Right.

[A]

Okay. Maybe that's where the vicious rumor is.

[B]

Yeah, I haven't heard that one before. You never know what's been said out there.

[A]

When did you Know, that had to be the core of the brand, not just a marketing line that you. You. Basically, it's about being unplugged, which is, I think, very unique. It was very unique when you came up with it, but now there's. It's a. It's a growing category this, isn't it? Because people are realizing the power of human to human sort of engagement.

[B]

Yeah, it's interesting. So what's interesting about the category is that there's using the taglines around it and then there's actually being serious about it. So there's a lot of people who talk about being offline and digital detox, but then in reality, it's more of just a marketing message. And so I think what we've always done differently and I think still to this day is like, we are dead serious that you're coming to get off your phone. Like, that is the whole reason for being. And that's our whole focus as a company, all the decisions we make on the marketing side of things and the product side of things, and to get people to come and do that. And that actually came before Cabin. So read a book about six months before this all started called Digital Minimalism by a guy called Cal Newport, and it does what it says in the tin. Basically suggested that perhaps life would be better if we spent a little less time online. And so just got very enamored with the idea from that and. And then had this silent retreat experience in September 2019, where basically burnt out, got a bit sick of the life I was living. Very cliche. Went to a Buddhist temple in the Himalayas. And the best thing about that, like, you do. Exactly. I tell you what, I was so resistant to it because I was like, what would the guys at work think? That I'm not the kind of guy who would go and do that. But eventually I just got over myself and went and did it. And the best thing about it is when you get there, they take your phone off, you spend 10 days completely cut off from the outside world. And that was so new to me because ever since I'd had a phone, which I'm sure had been a long time by that point, I didn't spend a day without it, let alone. Let alone 10 days. And so that was very confronting. Like we were talking about earlier with couples, just stuff came up. Like, it was the first time that I actually had to sit with myself for 10 days. So that was. Yeah, that was a very formative experience. And then literally came a week after that, went back, had a drink With Ben, he's not the kind of guy you'd find at a silent retreat anytime soon. And we spoke about how there's a lot of stigma around retreats and meditation and so much the benefit is just getting people offline and into nature. So, yeah, that's where it came from.

[A]

Well, and ironically, one of the ways that I found you is that my wife is obsessed with all this sort of stuff. She's quite a spiritual individual. So she. My wife is a. An award winning garden designer. But the stuff that she do, the stuff she does is she works a lot with schools and education, sort of local authorities and stuff. And she advised, she designs outside inside, so she'll break. It's called biophilic design. So you bring the outside inside and feng shui and all that sort of stuff. She believes in all of these different things and so she's desperately trying to get. She goes on many a retreat to get away from, you know, the various bits and bobs. It does fascinate me that it works, but I've had a quite an experience myself recently in that I have been cut off. I got cut off. I own a social VR and social media agency and I've got a va, a virtual assistant who works for me from Philippines and he did some stuff on an Instagram channel for me. And because I was logging in in Philippines, it thought my account had been hacked. So I lost Facebook for the first time I've had Facebook since it was called the Facebook back in the day when it was like, like all it was was a stat. There was no newsfeed, it was just a static connect to your friends and you threw a sheep at each of the. And very much like, very much like what? You know, he poked people. I don't know if for those of you, the guests, those are the people that listening that remember that and it's. Oh my God. It was quite an experience. Like I've not. I've literally got it back on two days ago and it's rubbish. For a start, I've realized that I missed not a lot of it from Facebook. The only thing that I missed was some things about some. Unfortunately, one of my friends died a couple of weeks just before it happened. So I found that quite stressful because I saw him die and then I've been to his funeral. But a lot of the things were happening on Facebook. So it was a pretty. That was the only thing. And then I got back into it and it's like that was the only thing really. Everything else is just Rubbish channels that you're following. And I actually found it, oh, I don't have to worry about that channel anymore. Even though I run an agency built around bloody matter. So that was a bit stressful we made to make sure my team was sorting out the invoicing and everything. But I found it quite refreshing. And the other day yesterday I had a chat with. Because I don't know how I think you're a bit younger than me but I had a chat with my team the other day and my team are like 20 ish 20, you know, 21 to. And we were talking about mobile. Oh that was it because we bought a meal from the local pub and it was beeping, you know the buzzers you get. I was like, oh it's like a pager back in the days and they're like. And I was like, oh yeah, that's what we had in the bit in between where you went to meet people, you'd go meet somebody and you go, you'd ring them up and you'd say I'll meet you at so and so at seven. Then after that there was a, there was like a period of like four or five years where you could send them a text if they had a pager and some people had pagers because you could send a text but it was a one way text. So and I found that. And we were. And they just could not get their head around that. So the fact that no mobile phone. There'll be so many people listening to this thinking, I've never been unplugged. So what's the, what's the, what's the number one revelation you get when you're fully unplugged then do you think?

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean two big things. First of all, it's just what it does to you, what it does to your mind and body. So we fix it at three days. So the temptation is to allow people to come for one to two days. But we've been very firm around you have to come for at least three nights. And the reason behind that is it takes about a day for the mind to settle down. So for the first 24 hours, if anything you feel a bit more anxious and uncomfortable because you feel like you've lost a limb because as you were saying, you're so used to everything is on our phone. Right. And so there is a real discomfort around that. But then what happens is you start to get this deep sense of calm as the mind starts to settle down. And so we want to make the experience long Enough so that you can actually spend some time enjoying that. And the crazy thing is that that is how we're built to operate. It feels almost alien, supernatural to have that feeling. But, like, that is what it feels like to actually be human, rather than this low level anxiety and overstimulation that we've just normalized. I mean, it's crazy, like, how unsuited to the lifestyle we're living we are biologically like, we're. We're built to roam around in forests, hunting and gathering and, you know, generally socializing. And we're now living in these massive cities with millions of people living this very overstimulating life. If you think about what happens for most of us, we check our phones first thing in the morning and last thing at night and are basically on it nonstop in between. And what's happening when you're doing that is you're just being flooded with overstimulation and information and we basically just spend our days in this dopamine drained haze. And so what happens when you go offline and unplug is that your body starts to return to its natural state, which is actually a good place to be, surprisingly. And the other big revelation is just how little the world misses you. It's always such an anti climax turning your phone back on and not even your mum got in touch. Because we all have this narrative and I still have it, even after I obviously do it a lot myself, and I still have this narrative of, oh my gosh, how's the world going to last for three days without me? And it's just always wrong and everything's fine. And I think the realization there is that so much of what keeps us busy through the day is as a result of us being busy. So we have so many emails because we're always sending emails to people and, like, there's just this, like, stuff just happens for stuff's sake. I think if we actually look at what happens in the day, like, how much of it really needs to happen. I'm a big believer that most work that happens is a bit of a waste of time.

[A]

This is a message from the show's sponsors. Prohibition pr. We're Yorkshire's biggest PR agency and we specialise in delivering amazing video content and podcasting content. And we guarantee we can get your podcast, whether new or created by us, or if you've already got one, into a top 20 category in any country, just drop me a line if you're interested in that. But meanwhile, we've got loads and loads of free stuff We've got an entire events catalog packed for you with more than 15 webinars available free and on demand. Whenever you want to watch them or listen to them, it's me and the lovely Will talking through all sorts of topics from social media, public relations, content marketing, video execution, you name it, we talk about it. We've also got two live events coming up, both in June, July. So the June and July ones is from creators to closers. It's all about influencer marketing and influencer ambassadorship and all that. We've got another event in September and October called how to create Scroll Stopping content that converts. Bit of a mouthful but amazing. All completely free. So if you want to come along to our events for free, this is your bag. You enjoy the show. First of all, give us a like and subscribe. And please, please give us a review because we've got about 20 and we've got like 365,000 downloads, so it'd be nice to hear from you. I'll give you a shout out, but if you want to listen, if you want to register for the events, you can go to prohibitionpr.co.uk and click on upcoming events. Really easy to do. Register and yeah, Will and I will see you there and we'll have a chat with you. So thanks for listening. We'll. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Enjoy the show. Do you know what? I completely agree with you. I think, yeah, there is. I've got this issue, right, so every day I like, they say you should get out into the. Into nature. So just outside my window here, I lived on the. I'm lucky enough, we moved six months ago, a year ago now and we've got woods at the end and I take my dog out for a walk, but I take the dog out, but I take a podcast and I listen to it. I'm obsessed with, obviously, I'm obsessed with podcasts. I'll go out and I'll listen to, you know, I listen to marketing ones, I listen to, I listen to business ones, I listen to sports ones. Anything to keep me distracted from actually being out. And even though I've gone out and I'm getting some sunlight and I'm getting out in the trees with the oxygen is very good for you. I'm still distracted. So actually I'm thinking maybe I should go on a dog, which is terrifying. Go out for a dog walk, but don't take your bloody phone or your podcast. You like, keep it up. But then I won't listen to any podcasts as much so it's a. Yeah, is it? And don't do that if you're listening to this podcast on a walk. Definitely, definitely stay plugged in and keep listening. It's very good for you. Yeah, you've got me in a conundrum there because I do agree with you, when you go on a holiday and you. Sometimes I leave my mobile in the safe for a couple of days just to get over the fat. And you're right, I've had. I've had a couple of instances in my life where I've had to unplug from everything. Running a business. I run, you know, I run prohibition and I run this podcast and I, I am busy as hell all the time. But really that's just your ego, like, and. And I've had a couple of things where I've had to just go, go, not work, you know, not holiday related. And I've had to detach from it. And you're right, you come back a week at half later and the world's still turning and nobody's really noticed that you've gone and you suddenly realize how replaceable you are, don't you?

[B]

100%. But there's also something liberating about that as well. Right. Because I think we almost become trapped by these lifestyles we live where we just feel the need to run ourselves into the ground. And yeah, we spend so little time in the present moment, what you're talking about there, listening to podcasts. I've definitely, definitely been to that at various points as well. And. And I think we spend all of our time either thinking about the past or worrying or thinking about the future. And so little time actually in the present moment, you know, like enjoying the dog walk, enjoying that.

[A]

Yeah, that's actually what I do. Man yoga as well. It's man yoga, it's just blokes, Right. Apart from the instructor, she's female. But it's really. I don't find it too scary because when you've got loads of ladies that are really good at it and I'm like nearly 50 and I love the fact that you. That's being present as well, like, because blokes don't. I don't know if it's. The only time that we are present is when we're watching football and even then we're not present, you know, or sport, you know, I don't know if that. So to be present in the moment, like who you are in yoga or meditation or something, which I do occasionally, I do think is everyone should give It a whirl. But then some people. Maybe it's just not for some people. Some people don't want it and they want to be distracted, don't they?

[B]

Yeah, well, I think that's the problem. I think the problem is that we want to be distracted because it's harder to not be and sit with whatever. Sit with our feelings. I think that's another thing we're terrible at as men, which is just sitting with feelings and whatever comes off. And I think it's been really interesting for me starting this company and just going on a bit of a journey around that as well, of actually learning to feel what's going on in my body, which is a very novel concept because spend many years just completely ignoring that. So it's. Yeah, it's very closely interlinked, but I think it's very valuable because I think we like to suppress men, but also British men especially, you know, we like to bury things away and never touch them again.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. You went to the Himalayas, which fascinates me. It wasn't one of those gaffes where people don't speak to each other entire. It wasn't the silent one, was it? Silent?

[B]

Silent, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So you couldn't make a noise at all.

[B]

There was one hour a day when you. There were some questions you had to talk about, but the rest of it was silent. And the silence was a real gift. I thought it would be hard, but it wasn't at all. And it was. Yeah, it was. And you realize how rare that is because, again, obviously, we don't really spend a day in silence. And there's something very weirdly bonding about being in silence with other people. So you expect it to be isolating, but it's actually the opposite. There's almost a shared experience where you're

[A]

all sat there with. So you sat with complete strangers in silence, so you don't know anything about them. You're blonding with them because you're not speaking. That's how I mean, that is. I haven't done.

[B]

And people surprise you. So you. You have in your head what someone's going to sound like or be like. And then. Yeah, they open their mouth after 10 days and they're completely different.

[A]

Yeah, Amazing, Amazing. Okay. And so. Okay, so this shows about mistakes and you've obviously created this unplug business because you had a moment of reflection. Is that. Where did you have a mistake that led to that point of reflection then, in your previous career? Because I know you were. You were very successful. And you did, but then you've said that you weren't successful. So do you want to just lead

[B]

us into that success in the eye of the beholder? I almost see my whole career, unplugged included, as a string of failures in roughly the right direction. So like it always feels like a failure at the time, but add them all up and it looks, you know, not like a complete failure. So I was, I was a tech startup. Me and my co founder were the first two employees and we grew very fast, opened internationally. So it was all very exciting. Absolute shit show behind the scenes. I did a number of roles. I started in sales, then I ran product for a year and then I ran growth for a year and all of those. I was so unbelievably unqualified. So see, I mean, I think a lot of inspiration from Unplugged came from that experience of running growth that last year because I was so ineffective at it. And if I look back what I was saying earlier around, most work that happens is a waste of time. Like that startup really crystallized that lesson for me because I look back at what I did that year and I could have done, I could have done none of it and probably nothing would have changed. And actually as the startup, we went through a big restructuring around the time I left and we got rid of a 10 person marketing team and most of the 20 person sales team and nothing changed. The numbers didn't change at all. Which is crazy that the sales didn't change. So just shows that whatever we were doing was just work for work's sake. So that was very, I believe is

[A]

the term, busy fools.

[B]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And the other big learning from that phase was like I spent so much time in that head of growth role trying to do all the things that I thought we should be doing, like optimizing the website and doing SEO and all this shit. But like the big issue was much more fundamental, which was like as a company we were trying to be everything to everyone. And so it was trying to push water up a hill doing anything downstream of that. There was this fundamental issue that we needed to sort out. And I just spent all of my time with my head buried in the sand messing around with a few things. There's a great question, there's a great quote that it's better to have an approximate answer to the right question than the exact answer to the wrong question. And I think we spend so much time focusing on the things we can track. So conversion rate optimization is a classic thing that we spent all this time trying to do these website tests and built this absolute Frankenstein of a website because it was quantifiable. And I could point to it at the end of the month and say, hey, we moved this conversion rate from here to here. But the much more murky question was like, what do we even stand for as a company and who are we trying to sell to? And that was a piece of work we just didn't do. So one of the big learnings from that was like, what you are trying to sell is so important and actually the product massively dictates how well you can market it. So all of the decisions we've made with Unplugged obviously have this very mission driven side to it. But it's also like everything we do, how do we do something that when you hear about it or see it or try it, instead of going away and telling two people, you go and tell 20 people. Because if you can do that, it just adds this massive multiplier for everything you do, whether that's going viral on social media or generating word of mouth mouth or whatever it is. So I think we've always gone for this hype approach of just doing something that can be as talked about as possible. I think a lot of that is just actually standing for something and being different and just doing something that you think should be done rather than over trying to validate ideas. I really can't get on board with this whole idea idea validation thing where everyone testing on this idea. Someone said to us at the start of Unplugged, they said, why you? Why are you going and buying a cabin? Why don't you just put up a landing page and drive traffic to it and test if people actually want to lock away their phone or not. And the problem behind that is they would have probably said they didn't want to lock away their phone. But it's not the business we want to make and it's not the change you want to make in the world. And I think that stubbornness can lead you to disaster, but also it can lead you to a much more unique outcome. And fundamentally from my side, I just had no interest in competing. I have no interest right now. And if I wasn't doing on blood, going and doing an AI startup with every other, with all these geniuses from Stanford and getting into an arms race with them. So the way to not compete is just to do something that you very authentically believe in that is different. As you said six years ago when we were doing this, no one was really Talking about this. And so I think a lot of it is just like going with how you believe the world should be and then hoping you're right, basically.

[A]

But I mean, amazing the fact that, I mean you're so. You're not lucky because you went through that horrible bit. But then to do what you're doing and have a passion for what you're doing. Like I said, my wife, she did the same thing. She was our head of sales, very good at sales and. But she loves doing the what the nature. The stuff that. Like the stuff that you're doing, you know, where you're in touch with yourself. And she likes helping people and being creative. And I've always had a passion for what I do, which is marketing. Although as I've got further up the C chain, I've stopped doing PR and marketing and ended up just doing. Running a bloody business and looking at financial charts, which is the same thing that you're talking about, like performance stuff. We class it as performance marketing rather than brand marketing, which is what PR is. And this sort of stuff where you do an interview on here and then someone. Someone hears you in three years time on this podcast talking about it and books it. Where's the ROI and tracking URL from that. That's just how it works. It's like it's not instant, it's not. And there's that. That non. There's the nebulous stuff you can't quite touch that people seem to forget. And tracking everything results in tracking nothing as well. So. But yeah, you've got to get like. I totally agree with what you were saying. Like go with your heart, do something you believe in. And if he's true to yourself and authentic, it's gonna, it's gonna work. Overall, the other thing that I think is really interesting about what we talk about here though with Unplugged is that everybody listens to our show. Hi, Mum is basically there's two of our listeners. I'm joking. Just never listen to the show. Is that everybody's pretty much everybody in our industry. We all think we're creative and actually creativity. I've had some of my best campaign ideas back in the early 1990s. Some of my. No jokes back in the first ideas. The best ideas I've had is when I am Unplugged. So sat on the sun lounger, no phone and just enjoying the weather and suddenly an idea will pop into my head. Similar like if you're out in nature or you're doing something or people say when they're in the shower, they'll come up with an idea. So, and I do think that that the creativity thing comes from. Did you find yourself super creative when you were locked away for those 10 days in Himalayas?

[B]

100%. I mean, the business basically came off the back of that. So there's something around that. There's two. Our brain has two ways of thinking. There's something called focus thinking and something called diffuse thinking. Focus is if you imagine a spotlight. So when we're on our laptops working, like you're focused in on a problem. And diffuse thinking is. Is what happens when you're not looking at anything in particular. It's when the mind wanders. And actually, we are far more creative in that space because our brains, and I mean the human brains are obviously completely remarkable. And our brains will make these connections that we didn't even think was possible. So it's why when you go out for a long walk, we're in the shower, whatever it is, ideas actually have the space to form. Because again, the way we're living now is just so out of whack with how we are designed to live. So our brains are not designed to be distracted the whole time. Like they say it takes about 15 minutes when you check your phone to regain your composure. For most of us, we don't go 15 minutes the whole day without checking our phone. So what that basically means is that we're in a permanent state of distraction, which is absolutely wild. So there's this whole. These whole systems in our brain that we're not even allowing happen. And I think those are where all the best ideas come from. So, yeah, I mean, always, if I go for an unplugged experience, I'll come back with ideas, energy, like, everything like that. And yeah, so massively, massively just sold on that idea. And I think, again, it is as simple as going out for a walk and leaving your phone at home for an hour.

[A]

Like, I'm going to do that today. I'm going to do that after this call. I'm going to go out for my lunch walk and I'm going to not have a. Not have a phone with me.

[B]

I think 100%. Yeah. I think the temptation when. Especially when there's something that's hard and we're struggling with and it's maybe causing us stress, like we feel the need. I've noticed this myself, that when I'm stressed out about something, I'll want to busy myself with doing work. That kind of feels like I'm. I'M helping the thing. So say it's raising money. I'll feel like I need to spend extra time reaching out to investors, whatever. So we do these things that soothe ourselves. It might be like going and spending time on social media so that we can think about what we need to put or whatever it is. And actually so often the best thing to do is the opposite, which is to step away and just give ourselves the space. It's the hardest thing to do as well. It takes courage because it takes courage to step away and give ourselves that space because it feels like if we've got something unsolved, we almost need to whip ourselves because that insecurity of, like, I don't feel enough because I haven't solved this thing, so I need to busy myself. I need to be doing more so that I make myself feel like enough. So I think it takes, it takes courage to be able to say, hey, I'm going to give myself the space. I don't need to solve this right now. I'm going to go for a walk. And yeah, in my experience, everything. Yeah, nothing is harder after a walk. Thank you beforehand. So everything is, is a little clearer.

[A]

Yeah, I'm going to take that. I'm going to take that tip I've got. So if I ask you something, I want to say, so for the, for the marketer listening to this who cannot sell digital detox, what is the transferable principle from how you build your brands? You know, what is the one thing that you, you can advise them that how you built your brand that they could use themselves?

[B]

I think I read a great book once called On Writing well, which is about writing well. It's a memoir. And one of the chapters was called Amuse Yourself. And the basic premise behind that chapter was if you just try and amuse yourself, you're probably going to amuse other people as well. And I think there's just a, like, we spend so much time thinking about from a marketing point of view, what we should do, like, what, what, what should, you know, what should we put out into the world and how should this brand look? And I think it's much better just to go from a more intrinsic place of, like, what would I love to see? Like, what do I think would be cool? What do I think would be interesting? And I think it's just like really, really tapping into being authentically you. Because I think the problem is that we see someone else succeed at something and we think we're going to copy how they've done it. And of Course, the context is different, you can take approaches. But I think my big learning here is just be to what I said earlier, which is don't compete. And actually the best way to not compete is just to really be authentically yourself because no one can beat you at being you. And I think one thing that's worked really well with Unplugged that you touched on earlier is it is such an embodiment of me and what I believe and the change I want to see in the world. And it just makes decision making for a marketing point of view very easy. It makes podcasts very easy because I can just go on a podcast and just share about me and, or how I see the world and believe. I don't need to come in with a script and say, okay, these are the agenda items we need to get. And I think there's just a really nice alignment with that. And then no one else is going to compete at you with being you. So for me it's digital detoxes at cabins. For someone else, it's probably going to be something else entirely different. But I feel like, yeah, we have this almost this feeling like everyone else has got it figured out and we need to be doing all this stuff. And actually I think sometimes it's just having the courage to back yourself.

[A]

So something that I will say is, and this is a bit of a dichotomy, you've got social media channels and obviously you're not, you're not supposed to be plugged into social media, but you, your TikTok's really interesting. You've got like two. I think one of the channels has got 200 odd thousand Instagram followers. Yeah, Instagram. And then you've got quite a lot on TikTok as well. And I watched the, pinned some of the, I've seen quite a bit of that. Some of the views are amazing. So couple of. I mean, firstly, that's a dichotomy, having to do social media for a brand that doesn't. That is encouraging people not to do it. But it's brilliant the fact that you give people a Polaroid camera and everything. One question I've got is, are you still, if you're reading a book, do you think you're distracted? You know, like if you've got that tape machine that you put in, you know. So for those of you that are over, for those of you that are under 30, under 35, a tape was what we used to put into a tape machine, then press play to listen to music. Do you think you're still distracted by that, by music and books or is that still good because you detached from your phone for sure?

[B]

Well, I think with both of those things, the marketing on social media and the, as you say, distractions in the cabin like this is when there's a pragmatism that meets reality that you need to have. Because we could put our tin hats on and say we're not going to go on social media but then we wouldn't get anyone to come and do this. And for us it's like we hugely believe in the value of doing it. So you need to fish where the fish are and you need to go meet people where they are. And obviously the people we want come and do this and who we think it could benefit are the people who are spending time on social media. To be honest, if you're not spending any time on social media, then you

[A]

don't need to come and stay out

[B]

of one of our cabins. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's that one which is like there's a sense that two things could be true at the same time. And so we can both believe that people's lives would be better if they spent less time on social media and believe that social media is the best way for us to get that message out. Like both of those things can be true. And I think the other thing on the distractions is it's, you know, if people went and just raw dogged the experience and they just spent 72 hours staring at a wall, yes, there would be less distractions. I'm sure it'd be quite a profound experience, but it would also be very uncomfortable and I think that's not where people are. I've done quite a lot of retreats. I'm not sure I would do that. There are definitely some nutters out there that would do it. But again, we're looking to help people get away from the immediate distraction. And so I think there's a bit of meeting people where they are and actually I think it works. So you can overanalyze this until the cows come home. Some people are like, well there's a Nokia in there, so is that a screen? And like, should that really be allowed? And it's like having done this ourselves and having had 15,000 guests come through now, like profound things happen when they do this. And actually having a book in there, having some books in there, having some music to listen to seems to enhance the experience. It doesn't seem to make them come out as overstimulated as when they come in because you are. If you think about what's actually happening when you're spending an hour on your phone versus reading a book. Reading a book, you're sitting with one thing, you're sitting with one story and there's something very. I actually think reading is a hugely underrated things. It has an amazing effect on us, the act of just sitting with a book and it requires this concentration and, and really immerses you in the stories. I think it's a very calming. It's a very calming thing to do. Scrolling through social media or WhatsApp or whatever. Opposite effect, you know, if you're. If you're scrolling through Instagram and you're getting WhatsApps coming through and like that is just like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. They pulled in 100 different directions. So if we can use things like reading and tape players to help people get off social media for three days and their phones for three days, like that is a trade we definitely want to be making. Because I think the key thing is like, it is really hard to get people to spend three days offline and so we want to make it as easy for them as possible.

[A]

And you've got. So for those of you that haven't found. That haven't want to find your place, you've got London, Manchester, Bristol, Birmingham, Cardiff, Liverpool, Brighton, Swansea. So Wales, the New Forest bath you've got everywhere. So how do people get to book on. Do just come to the website?

[B]

Yeah. So all through our website is unplugged rest. You can get in touch with the team there if you want specific recommendations. But yeah, good coverage across the uk. We've actually got three cabins in Spain as well, north of Barcelona and definitely want to keep rolling out soon. If you don't feel up for a cabin, stay now, but just want some tips on maybe taking baby steps that might just be leaving a phone at home. Will you go for a dog walk or something like that, then get in touch? We can always help with that as well. And yeah, but that's what I would say is like, if you can come stay on a cabin for three days, great. Like we really had amazing feedback from that experience. But sometimes it is. It definitely helps just to spend an hour off your phone and you don't need to pay for that, you don't need to do anything like just leave your phone at home and go for a walk and chances are you'll feel better.

[A]

Yeah. It's interesting what you were saying about the. The books thing, because I remember when the Kindle came out and they were saying the death of the book and bookshops and Waterstones, there was loads of PR all about that. And I thought, I'm in your camp. I was like, no, I don't think so. I think people like to put down devices. They like to have a tactile element of a book and they like the imagination that comes from a book that you can't get. You know, the way that you, the way that you focus and you create things in your mind, I think that is the thing that won't ever be lost. I just think that it's from millennia that we've had it and I think, yeah, we'll have different devices and different things, but I still think that we like to, we like to have that tactile part of it. I've got a question for you, Hector. So the final question we ask everybody is you've been on the show now, you've told us what mistake you've made and you've told us a little bit about yourself. So if you were us, who's the next person that you'd invite on the show and why?

[B]

Good question. I think I'll go for Kit Gammell, founder of Surreal, if you come across them. Surreal company.

[A]

Yeah, amazing.

[B]

Yeah, he's a lovely, lovely guy. And they. There are a few companies who I think really managed to create something unique for a marketing side of things and especially their LinkedIn strategy really did that. So I think what's wonderful about them and him is they just don't take themselves too seriously and they've done that at now a massive scale. So, yeah, I think you'd be a great guest.

[A]

Thanks for listening to Embracing Marketing Mistakes. You've reached the end of the podcast. Hooray. What can you possibly do to help Chris and will the providers of this show? Well, what you can help us by doing is just please give us some feedback. Positive, negative, constructive. Well, hopefully not negative. But if you could give us a review somewhere, five star review, preferably wherever you get your podcast, it will really help for people to find the show because there's loads of other people out there that we'd love to hear about it. And the guests that come on here, we want to give them as much visibility as possible. So. So yeah, I want to just thank you personally for listening to the show. I really appreciate it because it's a bit weird. We record it in Leeds and wherever you are around the world, from Peru to Estonia to Russia to Africa, I want to thank all of you for listening really appreciate it. So, yeah, if you like the show, please give us a review because it means a lot. So thanks a lot and enjoy the rest of your week. See you next week.