← Embracing Marketing Mistakes
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- [00:00]
Host
This week's A Cracker. And my guest today ran creative for the biggest advertising company on the planet. And he was effectively shown the door from two of the most coveted jobs in the creative sector and sold every share he owned in the business the day his new boss walked in. This is Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the show that teaches you growth from failure. And today, John o' Keefe on why creativity is the only number that matters in marketing. I think you're going to find this one really interesting, so sit back, relax and enjoy. John o', Keefe, welcome to the show.
- [00:42]
John O'Keefe
Nice to be here. Hello.
- [00:44]
Host
I'm so glad you're on the show, John. Mick Mahoney had nothing but big things to say about you and I've read a lot about you now and your history and your expertise. But in simple terms, for the listeners who might not know you because not everyone's from Adland, what did you actually do as the mayor, as the man in charge of creativity for the world's biggest ad group?
- [01:07]
John O'Keefe
Well, I did what I've always done, really. I did what I've done since I was about 20 at Saatchies and being given trade ads to do. I sort of either come up with ideas or say to people who come up with ideas or think they come up with ideas, that's good, that's not good enough. Go again and just raise the standard. It was, I think, by common consent at the time WPP was rather disparagingly referred to as the, the, the mediocre one. All the press coverage I got when I went there was. What on earth was he thinking? No one. I mean, they're very. The industry is full of people who always carry the epithet the legendary. So the legendary Neil French was a predecessor who, who was, who was there. And he's got, you know, I mean, he's famed in our industry anyway. But the dials didn't move and Martin. So Martin did move and got rid of him and then somebody else came along and the dials didn't move. And then my time was kind of up at BBH in a fairly. A surprising meeting was suddenly called, I think on the morning of the 14th Agency of the Year award the agency had got. And I was told we're just not where we need to be creatively, which does beg the question, where exactly do you want to be? So, luckily for me, there was a getaway car outside being driven by Martin. So off I went to WPP and set about as he gave me two KPIs, creativity and effectiveness and I met with. What's the best way. I met with resistance. In certain quarters. There was a very comfortable. We kind of know we're not punching as high as Omnicom. That was the big. That was. They were the big players at the time. But, you know, we're making a living and the clients seem happy enough. Why. Why do we have to listen to you? And I was saying, well, because technology is taking over. I mean, mean, it's. It's all digital now. There's so many channels you. You can't any longer afford just to be mediocre. Otherwise, we'll. We will lose. And that will be the end of wp. So this is the program. This is the direction of travel. I'm going to set can as our benchmark because it's the only global show that everyone cares about and why all the clients are there. And I was told we've just got to get past publicists. And I said, no, no, we've got to get past Omnicomp. And that's. That's the direction of travel. We're going in. And those who are with me are with me. And those who aren't, I'm afraid, will be managed out, as the euphemistically put it. And the trick, I think, was not to ask the creative directors to come and present at the annual big Shin Big in New York with all the companies there in Mars and making a big speech, you know, the sort of strategy conference I think it's called. I said, I want all the CEOs to do creative presentations about where they are, what their ambition is at Cannes next year, and they will be invited back next year to report on what they told us this year. And that concentrated a few minds. So the can performance went up. You know, we were still behind Omnicom, but a couple of years later, we won. And then we just kept winning.
- [04:33]
Host
I mean, it's amazing. You sort of bet instead of going aiming for the people that were slightly in front of you because you were in third place. Right. And they were in second, but you went for first. And just. I suppose that's the classic. Aim for the stars and you'll hit the treetops, which is basically what you've done there. Great strategy, though.
- [04:50]
John O'Keefe
Yeah. I just think you wouldn't. I just don't think we'd have. I think we'd have stayed in third if we'd said we've just got to try to get to second. I mean, a good friend of mine called Will, Audrey wrote a campaign for, I think McCallan Whisty once. And there was all sorts of. It was. It had got first place in something rather, and the line was simply, who cared? Who cares who came second? And it's true, you know, we all remember Usain Bolt. We just can't remember who was the runner up. So, you know, it was. It was obvious to me that if we said, let's just try, and we didn't have to go very far to overtake Publicist, we had to go a long way to overtake Omnicom. And that was, I thought, what was needed because, as I say, that what was coming around the corner was already being talked about, was all the fragmentation and the digital strategies and clients panicking about where should my messaging go. And I was already being talked about. And towards the end of my time, wpp, it was the only show in town, so to speak. So we had to gear up for that. And WPP was very much operating on almost a 1950s model of the clients we're dealing with. They want tried and trusted sort of proctor type solutions, and we deliver them very efficiently all over the world. And what's wrong with that? And I think it was a proctor CMO who made a speech and explicitly said, this isn't good enough anymore. Not, not aimed at wpp. But he said, we've got to start winning can Lions. And I think that was the message that that hip honed to Martin. He said, we've got to get, you know, upweight our sort of crazy firepower and make this work. And Neil French, or sorry, the legendary Neil Fritch, hadn't. Hadn't done. His successor hadn't done so. And so, you know, it was kind of a. It was a. It was a poison chalice of sorts because it was just, you know, it wasn't like it was hitting the ground running. It was just hitching in the ground, face planting, and you had to sort of stand up, get on with it.
- [06:57]
Host
Yeah, because that's when you spoke to me before. You said it was like you had two poison chalices. And I was going to ask you, like, what was this? What was the state of BBH's creative department when you took over?
- [07:10]
John O'Keefe
Well, it was the credit. The credit part was dreadful, frankly. And it was riding on the reputation. It was riding on a reputation it had garnered in the mid-80s to mid-90s. And by the time we got around 2000, it was a mess and everybody knew it and everybody was uncomfortable and the atmosphere was going toxic. And then a breakaway happened and lots and lots of key Senior players just walked and that's usually the death knell. Creative director went and four or five big executives went with him and everybody was trying to go and clients were leaving. And I was told again explicitly, we're one client away now. One client goes. And I think it was identified as Scottish Power was a client. If we, if we do Scottish Power, it'll be shutters time, really. And so I landed Scottish Power on the desk. And anyway, cut a long story short. Three months later, Scottish Power said, this is the best advertising they ever had. We're very happy. And I set about the grizzly task, if you like, of, of getting rid of quite a lot of people, which is new. You know, I, I'd never been in that position. You know, I come from a working class background. I wasn't meant to be, I wasn't born to be a ruler, so to speak. In so many cases they are. So I had to do that and. And then there wasn't a lot of money. You couldn't go out and say, I'm a Manchester city, like just buy every, every major player in the world. So I had to find people in, we call them sort of lesser agencies who were younger and hungry and just meet them and talk to them. I know you haven't got anything to show me because you haven't really had a chance, but if you do get a chance, I think you'll do fine. I think you'll be good. And that was the. Those were the calls I was kind of having to make. And we're getting people for, you know, the mid-20s, thousands, as opposed to the 120,000 sort of people. And, you know, I mean, I look back on pretty well. All of them went on to become stars. Stars, yeah. Really? I mean, world leaders and creative directors and all this. They did, they did incredibly well and good for them. They got their chance and they took it.
- [09:31]
Host
I mean, that says to me that you've got not only a creative but you've got a good, judgy character because if you spot in people with genuine talent and that's. That's a thing it's hard to do because there's. Everybody can have a cracking cv, but they can be shit as well. You know, there's people with cracking CVs that you'll know that.
- [09:51]
John O'Keefe
Oh, yeah, well, it's interesting, isn't it, because you say character, it was, it was as much about creating an environment where, you know, it was a happy ship. I mean, it sounds, sounds very bland. But if you've got A poisonous character that tends to infect the whole place. And I don't think I consciously did it. I just met them and if they were, you know, a good lunch companion and they made me laugh and it was a convivial experience and I thought, these two are great, aren't they? You know, kind of thing. It's always a duo writer and an art director. And I thought, you know, they get on with anyone. And by and large they did. You know, they came in and as I say, pretty well, pretty well, all of them did brilliantly well.
- [10:44]
Host
We interrupt this fascinating podcast with a little message from us, the sponsors of the show. Prohibition pr. We offer free webinars to marketing professionals, comms professionals anywhere around the world. If you're interested in getting, getting free training and frameworks, then be sure to check out our events. They're happening every month at the moment. We're obviously into August, but August, September, October, November, December, we've got quite a few coming up on content, we've got some on influencers, we've got some on AI. We've got a real life event that we're doing as well. You can find all our events if you go to our website, which is prohibitionpr.co.uk and go to Insights and click on the Events hub under Insights and there you'll find all our events like social media trends 2027, which will be happening in January, February, March. But we've also got a number of AI events that are going to be coming up. We're going to break down AEO GEO and how you can maximize your visibility on the LLMs, because I know there's a lot of people asking a lot of questions about that and we're going to break that down for you. So if you find this show interesting, please be sure to subscribe. Thanks for listening, we really appreciate it and thank you. That's good. So in WPP in 2008, I've seen it described as a creative desert and an un. Now, I need to say this correctly. Unturned roundable oil tanker. So what the hell did you do to say yes? Why did you say yes? That sounds like a job that nobody would want.
- [12:22]
John O'Keefe
Well, you know, there was, there was the, there was the very big incentive of having two small children and having just been told by Messrs Hegarty and Bogle that my services were no longer required and subsequently told. I mean, it was three months prior to that. I was told, you'll be the, you'll be the worldwide creator at the BBH in September and by September, it was. A notable quote from Mr. Bogle was sir Nanjan. Because, of course, who deserves a knighthood more? He said, yeah, you talk a good game, but it's just rhetoric. And I thought, there's no real arguing with this. I mean, I've just. What more could you do? The place was going to craze down and now it's, you know, the share prices treble and ruining everything. Going campaign agency of the year three times in a row. It's never been done before since, you know. So I just think it's folly to fight with the infinite, as my father used to say. Say, I was just lucky that I had to get a job, obviously. And it just coincided with Martin saying, we really want you to come to wpp. So, you know, and I guess if John Lennon said, we really, really want you to come to Omnicomp, I might have done that. But, you know, that wasn't in the offing. So I watched WP Boot and, you know, it's. It's good to take on a challenge, I guess. It's good to, you know, if I'd gone to Omnicom, and it did really well. People say, well, of course it did. It was always doing really well. Wpp, from some of the quotes you've got, there clearly wasn't. And it was known not to be. And, you know, it was just something to have a go at.
- [14:06]
Host
It's like a. To use a football analogy, it's like taking over, I don't know, like a Man United when they're at the bottom. You know, Tottenham that have been struggling, that sort of analogy, and then turning them around and getting them back in the Champions League, which is quite a nice touch.
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John O'Keefe
Yeah. And as an Arsenal fan, I've enjoyed Tottenham Seed and no end.
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Host
I didn't realize you were an Arsenal fan. Oh, God. Oh. In that case, left to end the conversation there. No, I'm not a Tottenham fan. You're all right. So, yeah. What have we got here? So you made the network CEO, as you just said, front the creative presentation, so that they owned each of the results. But how uncomfortable did that get? Because actually making CEOs get up and that is not a thing that they're used to presenting. The creative route is. It was that really challenging.
- [14:58]
John O'Keefe
It was challenging. And there was a. WPP famously had teams. There was team this and team that run. You know, they had agencies, obviously, but there was, you know, Ford was Team Ford, and, you know, there was 20 or more team this, team that, team Vodafone and I remember the CEO of Team Ford. I think Ford was the biggest client and he really wasn't having it at all. Ford was a very, very cozy, comfortable, very mediocre, frankly. And I didn't know who he was. I thought, this is the great thing. I didn't know any of these people. I was just saying, this is what's going to happen, guys. And. And then he just contacted me, phoned me out and said, somebody, somebody on the phone. Okay, hello, I'm the CEO of Team Ford. Good for you. Do you know what do you know? I can have you fired, he said was his opening gambit. I said, I didn't, I didn't realize I got hired by Martin. I've never heard of you. And he got on a plane and he came over and he called a meeting and I was happy enough to join him in a meeting. And he said it calmed down a bit and he.
- [16:02]
Host
Obviously, when you get face to face, that tends to happen, doesn't it?
- [16:05]
John O'Keefe
He worked out what to say and what he said was, you know, Ford, like what we do if we say to Ford, we've got to raise the creative standard and we've got to start winning at can Ford Rafier, us. And I'm thinking, yeah, what a cozy argument that is. But he persuaded Martin it was too big a risk. And so I was kind of given a kind of hands off forward. And I said to Martin, one of these days a good, a good creative agency is going to get in. We keep them at bay, but one of them is going to get in and see the senior guys at Forge and say, if you gave us the business, we'd do it like this. And ultimately that's what happened. It was bound to happen and it did. I can't remember who's Widens, was it somebody got in, somebody good? I think it was Widens and said, look, you know, the work you do, rubbish. You should do this. They said, see you later, WPP, you know, so what goes around. But most CEOs, you know, got with the program and I was, I was helped enormously by Martin. Martin. Martin wanted this to happen. He brought me in to make this happen. I said, this is what needs to happen. And he was very supportive. And if I said, I'm meeting some resistance here or there, he would fire off a missive saying, john and I would like to see whatever the hell it was. I told him we'd like to see Nice and we got to see it.
- [17:29]
Host
Yeah, that's. Well, that's nice. When You've got the backing of the main man. That makes a big difference, doesn't it? Because you throwing your weight around when you knew and people trying to undermine you, basically. Yeah, I can see that. If you can get. Because you had Martin on side. Yeah. So what's he like to work for day to day? Because obviously, I mean Martin is a, is a juggernaut of the industry, not to use your word, John, but a legend. What's he like to work on a day to day basis? Like if you reporting directly into him. How was that?
- [18:04]
John O'Keefe
I always found him perfectly reasonable and he, he wasn't, he wasn't there some of the time, you know, a lot of the time Martin is never happier than when he's on a plane. I mean, you know, he, so he wouldn't know from one day to the next whether he'd be there and then he was, he was never happier than when he was phoning at three in the morning and saying, could you be at heathrow tomorrow at 8 because there's a pitch going on, it's not going well, we need you to fly too. And then I, I can remember doing a pitch, flying to a pitch and doing it at his behest really, really quickly and we won and it wasn't going well and I got there and we, I was just in storm. This hotel did this stuff for a big bank and, and I said to somebody later, oh yeah, it had to pitch in in Puan. And he said oh yeah, where's that? And I said I haven't the faint sound here. I just got on a plane and landed somewhere and was carted off to his place, did the pitch, went back to the airport, flew home and this minute I can't. Is it a stone? I don't know, somewhere. So yeah, he was, he was kind of, he would, he would, he, he was very nice with me, but you would. Sometimes he wasn't in and, and, and suddenly an Irish Red setter would run into the building, as mad as they are these dogs, and jump all over you. You think, oh God, here he is. I think his name was Savage Comically and, and, and it was Martin Gog. So he thought, oh, Mark, you been in a minute. And so, you know, then, then he wander in. Somebody said to me, you know, he's, he's, you're lucky because he thinks he can do everybody else's job better than them except for you. He doesn't think he could sit there and come up with a, an idea or a slogan or what have you so you're sort of lucky in that respect. But I never had any. Any issues. I do. I do remember very, very early on if you wanted a. A story. Nervous. Kind of week one, and they come to the meeting room. We're just discussing the strategy for a big pitch somewhere. And it's gonna. It's gonna involve loads and loads of companies. And I'm thinking, oh, I only know. But I know the names of that forum. When I got into this room, and I thought, I'm gonna. I'm gonna get found out there. He's gonna ask me what I think of X, Y or Z operating out of Namibia or something, and I'm not sure I can bust this one. And there was a person talking to him, saying, am I going to use them? And them and them and then them. And Martin was nodding sagely. And eventually he said, is that one of ours? And I thought, if. If he doesn't know them all, I'm in. I'm okay. No idea. Don't look at me. From then on, I was. I was. I felt a bit more comfortable. It was so big, it was so everywhere. And every week another company got bought. So you just couldn't keep up with it.
- [20:54]
Host
Yeah, I'm not surprised. Yeah. So Martin Sorrell versus Mark Reed. Then what did each man fundamentally get right and which. And what did they get wrong, do you think?
- [21:07]
John O'Keefe
Well, the clear bouncer would be Martin hired me and it became the holding company of the decade. Creatively. Mark fired me and it lost maybe 75 of his value. So there's a fairly big difference. The irony of it is it's. It's Donald Rumsfeld's fault. And people will say, what the hell are you talking about?
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Host
Is this the known unknowns?
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John O'Keefe
Yeah, he did that speech about the known knowns. The known unknowns and were lots of names. Suddenly Martin was gone and lots of names were being proffered and. And everyone was thinking, how on earth, you know, we're in such trouble now. There was a panic. You know, it's. It's. You know, without Martin, there wasn't really a wpp. You'd think he was the soul of the place. And all these people were being touted and we thought, they don't know anything about this business. They don't know anything about the shape of it. They don't what who works where. They don't know the names. They don't know the people. By this stage, I was kind of in scogs. I knew people, I knew the geography of it or I knew who to talk to about what. So we sort of saw, a bunch of us went out, a lot of people thought I was joining Martin and telling me direct this white face, we know you're going. I said, I'm not. I know that. I know the kind of business he's, he's going to try and set up and it's not really my thing. And they said, look, you know, we've got to, we've got to make it Mark Reed, because he, he, he, he's, he knows the shape of the business, he's got it. It'll be continuity in that sense. And he knows what he doesn't know, so he won't interfere with you. So I swallowed that. And then they thought, well, you know, the board. Because I just presented to the board a few times about various things, you know, not a marketer among them, but, you know, good fun, the irony. So I, I kind of, I kind of went to the board and said, look, you know, the feeling in the camp is amongst the senior players has got to be Mark because, you know, for all the reasons I just outlined and I don't know that they weren't going to make him anyway, so I'm not taking the blame. Sorry that WPP and all the thousands who lost their jobs, it's not entirely my fault. But I did, I did, I did say, you know, I did swallow this. He knows where, he doesn't know line and he became the CEO and next thing I know, he's hired some, some woman from a suit from Walmart, from the supermarket, and she's just directing me and telling me how to be a chief Creative officer. And I'm thinking, well, what the hell do you know about it, frankly? And he did interfere and it was to the detriment, I would say, of the business. And I kind of knew. We had another strategy conference and I stood up and did my speech and said, look, you know, we're sort of lagging a bit. We've got to push again and we've got to make sure we stay number one because who cares if you're number two kind of thing. And then somebody from the floor asked a question. And Mark had somehow managed to stay on the stage after his really chat. And an IT guy said something like, do you think we focus too much on creativity and creative awards? And Mark said, yeah, I'm torn by that. And I thought, that's my, that's my legs cut off at the knees in front of the entire company. So I just, I just came back to London and easily spoke to lawyers and not within weeks I'll be called into a meeting and Mark will utterly, utterly banal. This just in working it is exactly what he said. And I was just told, look, don't, don't start a rail, don't, don't, don't do anything. Just accept what he says. Let's how you feel, you're the cea and, and leave and then we'll deal with it after that. Been a very good job. Smartest. The smartest thing I did was sell all my shares immediately. I think they were around the, the £19 a share, Mark, at the time. I think they're hovering around free now or something.
- [25:18]
Host
Wow.
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John O'Keefe
Was it so? Yeah, I mean, it was, you know, I was, I was, I told people ever after. It's a lie. I told people forever after. I, I met Mark for a meeting and he said, this just isn't working. To which I responded, what part of Creative Holding Company of the decade is the bit that's not working for you? But sadly, I didn't really say that. I wish I had.
- [25:41]
Host
Yeah, it's a good line. We've all got stuff like that. We've had a difficult meeting. I mean, we've all. You've got to. I don't think you learn much unless you've been fired once, I think.
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John O'Keefe
Yeah, no, I took the advice and just quietly left and I literally walked out of his office, walked to my desk, picked up my bag and walked out of the building and I haven't been back since.
- [26:02]
Host
It's crazy. It's crazy. And so, I mean, we'll get back a bit into it, but today, what do you do today then? You work for yourself, right? You freelance now. So, like, who do you work for now then? And how do people work with you, if there's any marketing people listening to this, because you clearly got it. What do you do for people now, then?
- [26:23]
John O'Keefe
You know what? I've got a LinkedIn profile, you've probably seen it, and it's quite short and I'm, I'm pleased. It's quite short. I, I think, you know, I, I, I come up with ideas that drive business. I mean, I, I do, I do marvel and sometimes I even know the people who are writing it. Some people buy it on LinkedIn capabilities and you think, well, I know they're going to say marketing strategy and then they're going to say brand building and then they can say ideation. I don't hear come up with that word, but ideation. And then I Mean, you see, I can't be able to read. It just goes on and on. You think, is there anything you can't do? I mean if I go through this, I'm going to find scaffolding them origami and talking to the dead. You know, it's just, just endless capabilities. I, I, I don't have Emberscape. If anybody wants, if anybody's got a business problem where their brand isn't doing as well as they think it ought to, then you know where I am, I'm on LinkedIn. I, I keep it very, very simple. And you know, I think if people wanted a CV, I say well my CV is, is WPP 2010 to 2020 versus WPP 2020 to 2026.
- [27:36]
Host
Ouch.
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John O'Keefe
Well, you know, I'm, I mean it's James O' Brien in the morning is, is very, is very good. He's got this plate line. He always says it's, it's, it's not, it's not opinion, it's counting. So you know, I'm, I'm not trying to be braggadocious. I'm simply stating the bald fact. WPP was a creative as you say desert and then it was seven years running holding company of the year can and Creative holding company of the decade. That was what I was bought in to do. Had a similar record at the Effies. You know, I'm not, I'm just, I'm simply stay for the facts and then, and then I'm not there anymore. So.
- [28:13]
Host
Do you like working for yourself now though?
- [28:15]
John O'Keefe
Like, I do, I do. You know, I, I kind of, I like, I, I, I've always just liked the sort of, you know, what's the problem and then just leave me alone. I might even go for a long walk while I think about it or I, I'll see. I, I work in, you know, with one other person. But if that one other person was Russell Ramsey, who with whom I worked for decades, I guess as my art director. But you know, you forget titles and you just sit down and turn you and you become a symbiotic kind of thing. I can do that. I don't really want to work with anybody else. So without, without Russell I'm happier, I'm happier on my own and Russell's still going strong and still very, very good. So you know, I mean, yeah, I, I kind of sit there and people come to me. You know, it's, it's, it's mad. The labor party came to me when they had the massive anti Semitism problem and said, can you help us with this? So I did. And you know, within I think two days they had something in the, a full page in all the broadsheets and the Prime Minister waved it at some Jeremy Corbyn under Jeremy Corbyn's nose at PMQS the following day. So I was thinking, well, you know, people, people want an effectiveness story. There he is. I sort of, you know, two days later, you know, and I did a, a couple of thin bits and pieces for T. Blair. I'm not sure I'd do anymore because he's joined the, the board of peace with Donald Trump and all sorts of not very peaceful people. So I think they steer clear of that. Yeah, anybody who, who I find interesting. And the great thing about being, doing it for myself is that people come to me and say, you know, we've got this fantastic new cigarette brand. Good luck, see you. You know, it's kind of, I don't have to do. No, to be fair, I was never made to do anything I didn't want to be. That's on wpp. So, you know, I get to choose and you know, and I get to say I'm not going to do anything this week. I'm just gonna, you know, go for long walks and it's nice and sunny and have a lovely time with my wife and kids and you know, next week we'll keep it up again.
- [30:35]
Host
Okay, cool. What sort of. Out of all the work that you've done from all the different places, which bits are your most proud? What's, which bits of work you're most proud of? Like actual work wise?
- [30:50]
John O'Keefe
Well, I wrote Keep Walking for Johnny Walker, which was a Diageo sell off. It just wasn't going anywhere. You know, the stores work. It doesn't make the money on the shelf. They won't give it the shelf space. And they, they all said to Diageo, we're not going to stop this product anymore. And they gave it one more shout. And you know, at BBH this was, and working with redoubtable figures like Nick Kendall and Hugh Bailey. And of course upon that account I met my wife. So, you know, fond memories and it was, you know, it was a good, it was a good experience. It was tough. You know, it's funny when you, it's, it's a strange thing with advertising. Once you've done it and come up with it, like, keep walking. It's about progress and there's a walking guy on the bottle. You meet people. Oh yeah, that's What I'd have done. Yeah, they didn't do it in 200 years, but you'd have done it, did you? Anyway, so, yeah, that, that, that's obviously a huge success story. I did loads of work with Russell for Audi, which, you know, he's in the hall of fame of somewhere saying, you know, Audi was synonymous with Renault and Ford and Fiat and it needed to be synonymous with BMW and Mercedes and the press work of that era is what drove it to that place. And one of the ads we did was voted the best ad in the world. Just an ad with a. A car that was very economical and we just put a camel looking under the bonnet and was like, this thing goes a long way on. On a small amount of liquid. And the camel was aghast how efficient it was, which, you know, I don't think it took very long, but knew there's somebody somewhere thought it was the best thing they'd ever seen. God bless them.
- [32:37]
Host
Yeah, nice. That's nice. And you will. This show's about mistakes and what people have done where they've made mistakes. So what mistakes are you. Have you made that you. You would be willing to share?
- [32:50]
John O'Keefe
Well, it's harsh and I don't want to get sued, but who cares? I think, I think going to the ball, I think believing that he won't interfere with you in your work, Mark Reed thing was a big error. I think going to the board and saying, I think. I didn't really believe he would be that great, but I've, I sort of said, yeah, give it to him. And given the choices that were being profit at the time, it's difficult to think of what else I could have done. That's a big macro thing, if you like. And, you know, I'm sure Mark would say, you know, I, you know, we could. Covid happened. Everyone tries to say it was Covid that what. What done us in or, you know, there'll be lots of factors. Well, I just, I just gently point out to everybody, or every factor you can point out was affecting publicis as well. They seem to, they seem to do pretty well. And I would have wanted to, you know, we won the Volkswagen pitch and I would have wanted to stay with it because it was like, you know, Volkswagen is the granddaddy of all great avatars. To my mind, the Oscar in my business look back at that, even back to the 1960s day. That's when it became fun and engaging and, you know, irreverent and all the great things that all the great advertising is that's where we all learned it from. And they'd had it for 70 years. And it was another pitch that was going nowhere. I got parachuted in. Martin made this company called Possible, which really should have been called Passable. Leaving that might have been an only claim. They were in charge of the pitch and they weren't going anywhere. And, and then we won it. And it would have been nice to have been allowed to stay on it. I'm not sure that anything great has emerged as a result of WPP winning it. So, you know, it's one of those. But in a funniest voice, I think, you know, less funny story, I think, but possibly staying too long at places, you know, lots of people, you know, then I was, they've done 10 agencies. I, I did Sachi's BBH and WPP. And, you know, you people say, well, you know, as soon as you made WPP number one, you should have gone to every, you know, recruiter and headhunter in the world and said, I'm the guy who made it number one. I want a solid gold hat. And. But I didn't. And I would have liked to. I didn't at the time. Martin said, the relocation package is amazing. And I said, sorry, can I stop there? I'm not relocating to anywhere. And looking back, I wish I had now. I wish I'd gone to New York. It would have been a great experience. And I didn't. I've heard lots of people who went to New York and didn't like it and were six months in and for me, I just hadn't come here. But, you know, you never, you never know. I, I, I have a feeling I might have liked it a lot, but, yeah, I wouldn't do it.
- [35:44]
Host
It's quite interesting what you're saying about the longevity side of things, because there's a big argument about, like, when brands keep their creative agencies for a longer period, those brands tend to do miles better. And, and, but we all know that a CMO or it tends to change jobs, everybody, three years. So there's a, there's, there's two sort of, there's a bit of a dichotomy there. How do you think, when someone's at the top, how do you think they should know what that perfect moment is to leave? When do you think it is?
- [36:16]
John O'Keefe
Bottle the answer to that. Lots of people have, you know, you see, you mentioned football earlier. You see a lot of, a lot of managers who've done really, really well at somewhere like Brighton or Crystal palace and then they get the big nod to go to Man United or Liverpool or Subway. And it's, it's just different. And it's not the land of milk and honey and they're not as great there. And the crowd get on their back straight away and out, you know, so it's not, it's not timidity on my part. It might be lackadaisical laziness. I was quite comfortable. I, I was quite well paid. I. Things were going well. I was, you know, picking up the, the holding Cong in front of the entire world every year. You know, we working with, you know, working directly, literally having lunch with Vice President Al G. And discussing the environment and having meetings in a hotel next to the White House with the global sea. He owe Indra Nui of Pepsi because she'd had a meeting in the White House just prior. And we think, well, I'm in this industry. I do this, this creative part of it. And these people are interested, these very, very big senior players are interested in what I have to say. Why would I want to junk that and go and do something else? This is, this is all going pretty well. I mean, you know, when everyone said, oh, we all think you're going with Martin, I knew I wasn't. I knew Martin wanted, knew the sort of thing he wanted to do and it wasn't my thing. But nonetheless, that was probably, probably would have been the moment to go. You could, I could have sort of thought, well, the Donald Lumsfeld argument might work, it might not. But you know, God bless Mark. He's not, he's not Captain Charisma. And it's never going to be, it's never going to be what it, what it's been up until now. And we're currently the only company of the decade. I probably should have said, no, hello, Arthur Sadun or John Wren in a. Sending a parachute. I didn't.
- [38:20]
Host
And so you mentioned AI. Obviously it's all anyone talks about in marketing these days. Do you think AI is going to replace advertising creatives or do you think it's just only the mediocre ones that are getting replaced by AI?
- [38:34]
John O'Keefe
AI can't have an idea. And I've had this row, literally, people say, yes, it can, it can't. It just, it just cannot do that. That's the thing. It can't then can do everything else. So where people say, will the holding companies collapse? Very probably, frankly. They, you know, because somebody said anyone with an iPhone is an ad ABC now you learn when you leave, you know, the sort of Warm embrace of those people who want to be creative stuff that actually, you know, when people say now bring in the creative, they don't mean what I grew up thinking they meant. Now it's just, here's Dory. She runs a hairdressing salon in Hull and her address is this. And this is how you contact her online or whatever. And that's the creative. And I'm not sure every, every country is, is like this, but probably most. 52% of our GDP derives from companies of 10 people or less or fewer. My mother. And they don't need a keep walking or a campaign for real beauty or, you know, a huge, you know, campaign for, for millions and millions and millions. They, they need, they need to be in all the right places on social and just say, this is what I am, this is who I am, this is what I do. Here's how you get hold of it. That's, that's the creative now. And AI can do that, you know, instantly and can optimize it constantly 24, 7 can target it absolutely perfectly, can coupons checking out that. Is it working well on this, on this platform? Or should I move more to that or should I 20 there and 50 cent and 30, you know, it'll do that. And, and there are, that's thousands and thousands of people's jobs there, you know, media placement, targeting specialists, you know, media buyers and all the rest of. They, they, they kind of, they must know that for the most part AI can do what they do. But AI won't say, I keep saying this to people, I always use this one. And AI is never going to say market. That sounds a bit like meerkat. And yet compare, the market was the, was the, the new kid on the block, you know, go compare was the big player and that's reversed. And that's because somebody said market sounds a bit like meerkat. And you know, that, that's, that's never going to be. AI can't do that now. And I don't think it ever will, frankly, because it's just too human and too mad. And AI is computing in general is very, very linear and serious and knows, you know, the kind of, what they call it, the ChatGPT, things like that, they're sort of generative. AI, I will say it's not generative, it's regenerative. It scrapes everything and even say I need a beer campaign for my Australian larder. It will say, Australians wouldn't give a Forex for, you know, for a Foster's, you know, whatever it just, it'll just regurgitate and compile what it knows about Australian lager advertising and just give you something. It's already been done because it can't do something new.
- [42:04]
Host
Yeah. And it's. The thing is, the whole thing is being dull and boring costs more, more money in advertising spend than anything else. It's like 10 times more expensive. It's. You need to be different. You're right. It's the madness. It's the, it's that sort of. It's the X factor. I would put the human touch something especially with a brilliant creative.
- [42:26]
John O'Keefe
The agencies and the holding companies need to stop wanging on about AI to the exclusion of all else because otherwise you're going to say, well, Omnicom publicists, Havas, WPP et al, they're going to go toe to toe on AI with Alibaba, Meta, you know, every, every kind of major players. Alibaba and Meta. And what's the other one?
- [42:55]
Host
Anthropic open AI.
- [42:58]
John O'Keefe
All of these, all of these, all these players. And, and they're obviously from Get Go. They're AI businesses. They're not, they're not gonna, you can't, you can't say we are an AI business just like you after 100 years of not being back. And so they ought to say, you know what, the thing you can't do is this creative thing. And they admit they can't do it, but they just say, well, there's enough, there's enough business that just, just requires very, very smart targeting and timing and our platform and, you know, we'll, we'll make our money that way. And they are making their money that way and they will always beat the whole, the ad holding companies at that. So, so I think you might want to sort of look at the, the pricing models and say, you know, I remember being told, you know, at bvh, bvh, very expensive, very expensive. And even then thinking, you're not, we're better than free because whatever you paid the agency for, keep walking, you're now the number one Scotch brand in the world. And five years later they said, we've got a billion dollars of extra sales. So how you could, you know, that's, you know, the campaign for Real Beauty for Dove has been huge for that brand, you know, and they probably paid Ogilvy a lot of money in their terms to come up with that, but they've reaped the reward. So I just think the agencies need to stick to their guns on that front and say, you know, we will utilize AI for every single thing it can do to the best possible advantage of our clients. But the thing we do that they don't do is we'll say it's, it's meerkat or it's Keep walking or it's the campaign for real beauty or was up for a beer. I mean AI is not going to do that.
- [44:44]
Host
No, same in PR, to be honest. And for all the CMOs and head of marketing that are listening, what's the one question to ask before signing off an agency's big creative idea, would you say?
- [44:57]
John O'Keefe
Well, at the moment the big question they ask is how much they probably should be asking how effective. And if we're honest, you know, it's, it's still a slight bet. We were pretty sure that Keep walking there was a lot of strategic thinking about, you know, if people go to parties, they take Gina, they take vodka, they don't take whiskey. Whiskey is more contemplative. People sit and sip it and what are they doing? They're thinking about where they've got to and where they're going to get to. It all sort of added up. And so we thought progress and Keep walking was a very good bet. But it was a bet. All things are like are a bet. So they can say, you know, they're with that agency because they chose that agency based on presumably what that agency had done in the past either for them against another brand or had done for other brands that he admire. And so there's a degree of trust there. So the cmo, I don't know that there is a specific question because you know, if it was me, I'd be saying can you guarantee me that this is going to increase my sales by 83% in the third quarter of next year? To which the answer is no, he can't. I mean I do this sort of stuff for Bain and Bain at one point said to me, can you come and do a sort of creative presentation to this financial crowd of kind of private equity people. And to say I walked off to the sound of my own feet would be an understatement. I was, I'm kind of giving it everything and showing them all the great things that happened and things I'd done, things I hadn't done, things I liked, you know, funny stuff, serious stuff, stuff that had worked. And they just sat there stony faced throughout and, and then anybody got any questions and all the questions were literally like, it was like doing an A level maths. They were saying that thing with a meerkat. What Percentage increase in business did that yield in the third quarter of 2019? I don't know. We just gotta say over time, that was the interloper. It's now the big player in that market. What, what's not to like about that? But they just very, very nitty gritty questions. And that's, I think, AI's advantage, if you like AI against those metrics, appears to be very, very definitive. This is what we do, this is how we optimize. This is, you know, where we'll put your work, where we'll put your message in front of exactly the right people, exactly the right time. It all seems guaranteed. And that's, that's their advantage. Our advantage, I would say, is yeah, but you know, look, look at the, look at the history of the great work. That's what we do. It can't do that, you know, take a bit.
- [48:03]
Host
Well, yeah, I mean, my God, I mean, I'm find, I'm finding the AI discussion. The more it's going on, the more, the more briefs I'm seeing done by AI as well. You can see I'm a mile away. I'm just finding the whole. I'm actually more getting more and more confident that good, good human creativity is still going to win the day. Like you said, otherwise, otherwise you're just going to be vanilla.
- [48:28]
John O'Keefe
I'll tell you one, one thing that surprised me and then I got a further surprise. Some I, I did. I won't mention who they asked. They were struggling with something. They said, look, we need a creative source of this. We haven't got a lot of time. I get that a lot. So I came up with something and they were really, really pleased. And I was pleased. They were pleased. Good. And, and the guys literally said straight to me, we'll tell the client. AI came up with that. And I told someone and it will come as no surprise. It was Russell yet again, my old art director and chum. I said to him, you wouldn't believe what's just happened. And they said, we'll tell the client. AI did that. And he said, I get told that all the time. So a lot of kind of bullshit out there. Bullshit out there, yeah.
- [49:19]
Host
I hope people are listening to this because that just shows you that we've had. I had my first. One of my team members have their first question ever about, as in, could we just get AI to write all the PR materials that you guys do? Because that would bring the cost down and then you guys could just send it all out. We're all like no, that's not how it works. And I think what you. The points you've just illustrated there show why that shouldn't be the case. Some things it's great at and some things it's just bloody not. I mean, John, I could talk to you all day. What's one belief about creativity you wish you had understood far earlier? Because everybody on this show listens to. Everybody who listens to the show is into creativity. But how does it come about? What's the one thing that you wish you'd understood about it earlier?
- [50:10]
John O'Keefe
Well, I would say to. I would say to young people coming into it who are. Who are despite AI and all the noises around them, they just want to say, I've just had this great idea. Be confident. Be a lot more confident, conf. Confident than I was when I, When I started sas. I mean, I can remember doing work that I now look back on and go, God, that was good. I'm glad I did that. Not that I kept it City S. But I can remember being so scared at the time because I was, you know, straight out of the sticks and into London, very kind of workingclass background and suddenly I met some Sachi and Sachi and, you know, and you've got to go and see the great. Whoever the hell it was at the time and say, it's. It's a difficult thing. You got. You lay your soul on the line. I've. What have you got? You know, it's tough. I've got this. This is my idea. And you'd be panicking at the end and then they'd say, yeah, good, okay, go. Go to the studio and sort of get it mocked up. We'll get it in front of the client. And very, very matter of fact. But know they were very relieved that you'd done it because otherwise, double up against the deadline. I had to get it done elsewhere. And there was no kind of, oh, well done. It's never very effusive. So you can easily feel, I suppose, especially from a sort of a. Not particularly born with a silver spoon background, slightly unnerved by these very, very big figures in the industry. And so, you know, have a bit of confidence. You are the person who's actually coming up with the idea. And remember this, you're in a very, very small minority if you're just starting out. Well done. Congratulations. Keep it up, you know, and always believe in yourself.
- [52:09]
Host
Thanks, mate. And we ask one the final question. We ask every guest this on the show. You've been on the show, now you've got to say your piece. If you were me, who's the next person that you would invite on this show? And why not me? You didn't even think about that?
- [52:28]
John O'Keefe
Well, you could say, well, I, I've heard what o' Keefe had to say and here's my, here's my comeback. You know, I don't know, You know, I mean, who, who do you normally get? Sort of just marketing creatives or anybody.
- [52:45]
Host
Yeah, it could be anybody. Founders, marketing creatives. We get people in PR comms, marketing. Depends, you know, an adland like you. So it depends on any, anybody that can. Has got an interesting story to tell, basically.
- [53:00]
John O'Keefe
Well, I can remember before the last election going to the Labour Party and telling them, you know, don't, don't go into this election saying change. Don't go into election just saying the word change, which they were going to do and they did. And the reason I had was it's instant. People having a tough time and you've said change. They vote for you on a Thursday, you're in government on Friday, the following Tuesday, then they all really saying, you said change. It's the same. And two years later it's the same. You know, I mean, they've been some, they've done some stuff, but they needed to build in whatever they said had to have a time element. So they could say, we've done this and this and we're working towards suddenly upwinds of that. So change was just, was just too instant and to that extent was wrong. But they weren't listening and they were very, very focused on that as their, as their big claim. So it would be interesting if you would. There's so many of them who claim to be the, the head of comms. I could give you five all say they're the head of comms. But it'd be good to get one of those people in and say, looking back, you know, do you think change was exactly the right message for the Labor Party? Because it's sort of tangentially creative, but, you know, they're. I'd love to. I'd love to hear them sort of say, yeah, I think it worked really well. It doesn't look that way for anybody else's point.
- [54:28]
Host
No. The lifespan of a Prime Minister now has gone from average of about eight years to about 18 months, doesn't it?
- [54:36]
John O'Keefe
Yeah. How many lettuces is Keir Starmer?
- [54:40]
Host
Exactly. Yeah. A few more than that lady. Yeah. Liz didn't last very long. Right, well, thanks so much for that, John. That was really great. If people want to get hold of you, what's the best way to get hold of you?
- [54:58]
John O'Keefe
LinkedIn, I guess. Get me on LinkedIn. If you get me on LinkedIn and want by email, I'll. Unless you're Benzeman Hedges, I'll probably give it to you.
- [55:08]
Host
Okay, thanks very much. Thanks for listening to Embracing Marketing Mistakes. You've reached the end of the podcast. Hooray. What can you possibly do to help Chris and will the providers of this show? Well, what you can help us by doing is just please give us some feedback. Positive, negative, constructive. Well, hopefully not negative, but if you could give us a review somewhere, five star review, preferably wherever you get your podcast, it will really help for people to find the show because there's loads of other people out there that we'd love to hear about it and, and the guests that come on here, we want to give them as much visibility as possible. So yeah, I want to just thank you personally for listening to the show. I really appreciate it because it's a bit weird. We record it in Leeds and wherever you are around the world, from Peru to Estonia to Russia to Africa, I want to thank all of you for listening. Really appreciate it. So yeah, if you like the show, please give us a review because it means a lot. So thanks a lot and enjoy the rest of your week. See you next week.